#515 - Brent Buck, Founder and Principal at Brent Buck Architects

Meet Architect Brent Buck

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lane. With me is Marina Bordel-René. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. Today, our guest is Brent Buck. Brent is an architect and also the founder of Brent Buck Architects in Brooklyn. In Brooklyn, in New York, yes. With Brent, we talk about his upbringing, how he got into architecture, his experiences traveling, and how they informed his thinking and his work. And then we talk about his work, and we talk about the profession of architecture, their evolution as an office, and where they're headed toward next.

0:35We talk about the importance of details in architecture, and also, you know, how can architecture be successful and impactful and meaningful without relying on perfect details everywhere. And I think we just, we covered a lot of different things. It was a very robust and great conversation. His work is, is, has great details. It's very well done. And you guys should all check it out. And, and yeah, it was, it was a good one. It was fun. Also fun to see that there's, they're doing really good work in Brooklyn, which is our old south and ground. So that's always kind of a pleasure to see.

1:08Like, wow, why couldn't this have been done when we were there? Maybe we could have. So it was very, it was very pleasant. And I mean, the work is, is really excellent. And it was, he's a very, very nice and kind person to talk with. Very thoughtful. So it was, it was good. Yeah. Sponsors, are you tired of juggling multiple pieces of software and struggling with spreadsheets that aren't made for the realities of design and architecture in 2023 built by and for designers and architects programmers all in one suite of tools has everything modern studios need for every stage of a project. Mood boards, the world's best specification tools, procurement, tracking, project management, and more all smartly integrated and easily shareable and always up to date, reducing time consuming, double handling and costly errors.

1:50Share work in various formats from PDFs to client friendly, up to date online dashboards. Join the ranks of leading studios using Programma today. Click the Programma link in our show notes to start for free. Today's episode is supported by AceLab. One of the messiest parts of taking a project from design to construction is everyone, meaning your team, the contractor, the owner, and the manufacturer reps working from different versions of your material information. Somebody's got a PDF from six months ago. The spec says one thing, the drawing says another, a substitution comes in, and nobody can remember what the original intent even was.

2:24AceLab's mature hub fixes that at the source. It is a shared platform, one live record. Architects, contractors, owners, and manufacturers are all connected to the same data in real time. If you want to learn more, tap the AceLab link in our show notes. This is the second studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Brent. Here we go.

Growing Up in Ohio

2:41I grew up in Ohio, and I would say in a small town kind of closer to Toledo, Ohio, but between Cleveland and Toledo. So this is a part of the country that's flat generally. It has proximity to Lake Erie, and there are a lot of farms. And so I grew up in a small town. You could look it up, but it's called Curtis, Ohio. And Curtis has a population, I believe that's less than 1,000 people. I think it was 836 at the last time that I drove through and looked at the sign.

3:13And so that was really formative, I would say, in how I began my journey into architecture. I think it was intuitive and a sequence of steps that led me to where I am now, which is Brooklyn. But essentially, I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Ohio. In that part of the United States, the road grids are one mile by one mile. So at some point, there was a large grid that was placed across the United States.

3:43And there's some dimension, and I think it's more than 10 miles and less than 50 miles. But at some point, the road deadends and it shifts a little bit by something like, let's call it 50 feet. I'm getting these dimensions wrong, but it shifts a little bit, and that is to account for the curvature of the earth. And so those little moments in this grid became, as a child, looking back, the most interesting parts of the landscape to some degree.

4:15But I grew up in a family that was very blue-collar, I would say, that my grandparents, both of my grandfathers, one of them worked and started on the assembly line at a General Motors plant. And another grandfather was a bricklayer and a plasterman. When he was my age, he became something else as he got older, but they were in the trades. And so growing up, I would frequently go to their houses, and I can't describe them with any other word than that they were tinkerers.

4:48And so my grandfather, grandfather Buck, he loved working with metal. And my other grandfather would paint and plaster and wood to some degree. And from a young age, the honor that we would have as children, I have an older brother and a younger brother, was to help them out with whatever their project they were doing was. And my father was also involved in these types of projects. And these projects may have been something as simple as creating a pulley system and a ramp to take a small boat into Lake Erie,

5:23up and over a break wall as the winter winds would blow ice into their yard. But welding those things, learning how to braise, doing those types of, I would say, very functional things, and not necessarily thinking about them in terms of how beautiful they were, but really purely functional.

5:46And another really, I would say, formative childhood memory of where I grew up was driving from Toledo through Indiana, which is also very flat, to Chicago. And so that part of the country, like I said, is very flat. And then you see Chicago off in the distance and you see these buildings. And I can remember vividly from a young age, like staring out the back of the car windows, looking up and around and just being enamored with the city itself and maybe less so individual buildings.

6:17But definitely the interest of the city is something that really resonated with me from a young age. That's incredible. So did you know everyone in the town, if it was less than a thousand people? Did you? Did you what? I know everybody in the town. I knew my neighbors. You know, I think that there was, I mean, lots of stories like Freddy Krugin, who was a builder, who was across the street, and his brother, their family ran some local restaurants and a local hardware store.

6:48And so we were always connected with the people that were around us to some degree. But it made for an interesting childhood because the school that I went to was about 45 minutes away from my house. So there's a lot of car travel back and forth to school. And, yeah, it was neighborly, for sure. Did your brothers also end up doing something kind of related with making or design or something like that? You know, my older brother is in business. So I would say that, no, he isn't necessarily in the design community, though he has an interest.

7:23And then my younger brother became a physician, a doctor. So he, in some ways, when you think of the human body, you also think of it mechanically. And so I think that in some form, those experiences that he had with our grandparents and also our father, you know, you start to think about the body, like I said, like a machine to some degree. And I think that that may have also spurred his career forward. Interesting. I've never had that conversation with him. So that's a really good thing to talk about.

7:55So I think that's an interesting kind of comparison. It's funny because the analogy that I often hear we sometimes use between physicians and architects is that, is more like when clients are poking or questioning the architect's decision, it's like, would you question your doctor's decision? Or would you, like, you know, when they ask us to sketch out something before understanding the brief, it's like, would you have your doctor prescribe you a solution before they do a basic diagnosis of what's going on?

8:27So there's some parallels that we hear kind of often in that sense. Yeah, I think that there is certainly, that's a really interesting parallel. Well, I feel like I have had many conversations recently where you're talking about a project in the abstract. And, you know, if the project is the patient, it would be very difficult for a doctor to do that. And it would be the same for an architect. It would be incredibly difficult to, well, one, if we're talking about, say, adaptive reuse, you know, understanding the health of that particular patient without actually going and seeing it and touching it.

8:59So I think that the parallels are obvious there.

9:04So all that feeds into you.

Discovering Architecture

9:06So when did you decide that you were going to study architecture formally? Yeah, I think that this is Toledo, AIA Toledo, American Institute of Architects in Toledo, Ohio, had a high school design competition every year that I was in high school. And so the AIA sponsored a design competition. And each year, the program of that particular architectural problem was different. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved it. And the winners of that particular competition program would go to, among other places, Columbus, Indiana,

9:43and had the wonderful opportunity going to Columbus with a group of architects, practicing architects, and then struck up friendships with them. And they took me to their job sites in and around Ohio. And that then became a summer program while I was in high school at Carnegie Mellon University, a pre-college program where I was exposed during a six-week, I believe it was six weeks, but a six-week summer program when I was a junior in high school.

10:14And it was just incredibly revelatory to be coming from, you know, the middle of nowhere, frankly, in Ohio, to be in Pittsburgh on that campus, on a college campus, and to be surrounded by other people that wanted to do something creative, and specifically architecture, was just incredibly uplifting and reinforcing of the need to pursue architecture as a next step. So what did you do at that program? What was it like relative to the rest of your education? Was it more conceptual? Was it practical? Were you learning CAD?

10:47We were definitely not learning CAD. It was, yeah, definitely. I would have been like, okay, architecture. Yeah, I'll get my MFA. But I think just generally, we were making a lot of models and thinking through some conceptual problems. But I remember the last assignment, and I think these were broken in the two-week assignments. So it was like two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. So they were relatively quick. And so you could just get a lot out of your system fairly quickly, as opposed to spending six months or, you know, now we spend four or five years on things.

11:19So I think it was really an interesting thing to be able to take a design problem, sit with an architect. I mean, it was desk crits. It was studio culture. And to do that, you know, I guess I must have been 16, 17 at that point, was just a real opportunity. It's interesting. I had a, I think, similar experience. Also, the summer after my junior year in high school, I did an architecture summer camp. And yeah, we were not doing CAD or anything technical in that brief summer camp.

11:50It was a conceptual model making stuff. But the part for me that I loved was, was maybe the studio culture, like you said. I mean, there's a lot of stuff to unpack there. But, like, making stuff by hand and having conversations and making close friends is, I was kind of like, if this is going to be architecture school, then yes. That was fun. Yeah. I mean, it's also like a first opportunity to be around a bunch of other weirdos that want to pursue this thing. So, you know, that's the other like-minded individuals.

12:20And, you know, I had a few like-minded individuals where I grew up. But I would say that, you know, the density was higher at college at Carnegie Mellon than it was in Ohio. And so when you go to do undergrad, I assume, so one of the things that we often ask is, like, was there any kind of shock when you went to school? But I'm going to guess not because you had that summer program. So you kind of knew what was going to happen in first year, I guess. Yeah. I think that the, you know, both the high school design competition as well, competitions as well as the pre-college program was a really good way to get your foot in the door,

12:54get a little bit of experience in both the studio culture, but also just, you know, entry-level design problems. And to some degree, you know, growing up, I did a lot of woodworking, strangely, really, really enjoyed doing that. And I think a lot of the first year at Carnegie Mellon was both, you know, building-type exercises, but then there was also a lot of hands-on stuff. So, you know, we were in the woodshop designing a simple piece of furniture, and just the opportunity to design a piece of furniture and to make it with your own hands is, you know, I wish I had more time in my life right now to do that, basically.

13:28Like, sign me up for that.

13:32Did Carnegie Mellon have a good woodshop? They had a wonderful woodshop, and it was directly, what was so interesting about it is, these were the freshman architecture studios. There was a hallway, and the woodshop was on the other side. So, literally, like, the proximity of the woodshop, that was then, I think it's changed now, but the proximity of the woodshop was, frankly, it was like 50 feet from my desk. So, the opportunity to really engage in that was a spiritual thing, almost. Yeah, that's amazing.

14:03The school I went to, we had a pretty robust woodshop, kind of a shit show, but it had a lot of equipment. And it was not that close to the architecture building. It was close, but, like, kind of far away enough where it's like, am I really going to walk over there, do the thing, and then drag it back?

Traveling India and Studying Tradition

14:21Then, after you finished undergrad, did you know that you wanted to pursue a master's, or how did you make that decision? Yeah, I mean, I just really enjoyed architecture school.

14:34Was Carnegie a four-year or a five-year program? It was a five-year program. Oh. And I had been, so I could have gone into the workforce, and I had had summer internships in different places, and different places around the world, frankly. And traveled on some fellowships that I was awarded, and saw lots of incredible architecture all over the world, namely traveling between undergrad and graduate school to see and study stepped wells throughout Gujarat and Rajasthan, which is a certain sort of northwestern portion of the subcontinent.

15:11And really got enamored with Lucan's work there, as well as, you know, Korb's work in India, and Bibi Doshi's work, and traditional Haveli's wood buildings, and Amnibad as a city. And then transitioned directly from Carnegie Mellon to Yale, where I went to graduate school. So, I didn't have to go back to graduate school, but it felt like the appropriate thing to do at that particular moment. I wasn't ready to get a job, and I wanted to continue my education and just be exposed to different people within the industry.

15:49You said you took a break between the two to travel. That's when the traveling happened? That was really, like, a four-month window after undergrad. Oh, sure. Yeah, it was like four months. It wasn't a full year, but four months in India, for me, it was the best weight loss program I'd ever experienced in my life.

16:11And really, to this day, one of the most inspiring travel experiences that I've ever had. So, on that note, what more specifically about those experiences, or maybe it was particular projects or anything else, or things that have stayed with you? Was it the detailing? Was there one particular building that stood out? Just as an opportunity to graduate from undergrad and then to travel the world more or less by yourself and really be exposed to those things is just a coming-of-age moment.

16:45And it's a challenging place to travel. But the specific types of buildings that were the most inspiring were traditional building types. To put traditional building types in the context of people that we now revere, like Korob or specifically Khan or Doshi. But to go to Adalaj Vav on the outside, which is a stepped well. And I don't know if you guys know stepped wells, but basically, if you imagine that being a dry, arid place.

17:16And an extruded triangle into the ground like this and steps along the length of the triangle. And as the water fills up over the monsoon, the steps always touch the water. And so, they became just fascinating to me because they're really functional things for communities of people. But at the same time, they're also highly decorative. And if you look up specifically Adalaj Vav or the Queen stepped well in Pathan, you know, these become decorative objects and decorative useful things that supply water to communities.

17:52And they just became really fascinating. And at that point, they hadn't been commercialized. And they hadn't been part of the tourist kind of destination. I think that's changed. So, there weren't fences or there weren't fall protections or there weren't anything. And if you look at these photographs, some of these things are, I want to say, 80 to 100 feet tall in places. And there's little children climbing around them. And to sit there and sketch and then to, you know, have children around you. And you're handing out your drawing instruments and pens. And it just became this incredible cultural experience that coupled with architecture, you know, that's there.

18:29We can talk more about travel and how those types of things aren't just about the building, but about the holistic experience of going to a place. And Corb's work, you know, I think that seeing the Mill Owners Association building and just being there alone, frankly, there was nobody else there. And spending time and seeing how, like, you know, he's a polemic character. And, you know, we studied his work extensively and read his biographies and things like that. But generally, you know, that building is environmentally responsive to where it is.

19:03It really served a very specific purpose and was unapologetically modern. And that was, you know, a real point of inspiration. Which project was that? That's the Mill Owners Association. So this is a building that has a really long, it has a really long kind of ramp bridge. I mean, a lot of Corb does that, but a long ramp and bridge up to the front door.

19:28But, you know, this is a, you think of the materials of the building like that. You think of the stone and the way the stone is laid. And I'm visualizing, this has been a very long time. But the way that the stone coursing is randomized in some degree. And how that fits into the context of the concrete work and the way the tiles are set, the way the light hits all of that. And then what's interesting about so much of that work is there's, of Corb's work, there's wonderful details like the handle of a door. And you could just, I just remember being enamored with the handle of this door and the way that the metal was shaped in the form of it.

20:03And thinking that there was something really inspiring about that. And I think some of those things come back in our work now, maybe subconsciously, because I haven't talked about this in a very long time. I haven't even thought about it. I could see that through line, too. And I think anyone, any architects who check out your work and see the broadest sense, I would say, like the attention to detail is very, very high. Did those experiences inform what you did at Yale? When you went to Yale, did you have an idea of like, I want to go further in this particular aspect of architecture and drill into that?

20:39Or was it a broader set of experiences that you had or learning objectives, I'd say? Yeah, it was intentional to go to Yale. I think that they had a very wide, at that moment, and still to this day, had a very wide ethos about what architecture could be. You had Bob Stern leading the charge and thinking about Bob Stern buildings next to, you know, Enrique Norton next to Zaha Hadid and Frank Gehry and like, you know, all the names, right? And thinking about materials specifically, like the way that I was just talking about that door handle and trying to seek out professors who were, you know, working with materials and light and form in the way that maybe Khan was.

21:22People like Shem Sutcliffe and people like Todd Williams and Billy Chin, which is kind of the next chapter of my life after Yale. But really thinking about the way that details come together, materiality plays a role in architecture. And so, you know, that was an intentional thing to go to Yale. It was also an intentional thing to try to seek out those types of people that were thinking about those issues. Did, what was my question? I just blanked on it. So when did you, so Yale was a two-year program for you or a year and a half?

21:57And so when did you finish the Yale? So I finished Yale, the year was 2005. Okay. 2005. Yeah.

Working at Tod Williams Billie Tsien

22:07Gotcha.

Working at Tod Williams Billie Tsien

22:08And did you go straight from Yale to working at Todd and Billy? Yeah. So Todd and Billy were my professors, the last studio that I took there. Gotcha. And just thoroughly enjoyed being in their studio. And Paul Schuhoff, who also was their teaching fellow, also began to run their studio. And Paul and I started working, or I worked on a larger team when I joined Todd and Billy's studio. But essentially, they made the transition from graduate school to a working life very, very easy.

22:40You know, you get on I-95, drive down from New Haven, got on the train in that instance, and started working on Central Park South. Yeah. My first day was a Saturday. Your first day was a Saturday? Well, why? What? Well, they had just received a commission. Well, they were invited to do a competition. And the competition was for a museum in Denmark. We didn't end up winning that competition. And it was called the Muscard Museum.

23:10And I believe it was built, the winning entry was built. But it was a quick turnaround. And so every day mattered. And I still had my youthful graduate school energy at that point. I was going to say. Yeah. That does make a difference. 2005. Yeah. Actually, it's funny, because I think I had visited their studio. We might have overlapped. Like, I was probably in the studio when you were there. Because we had, I had done a tour of their studio at some point. And I think it would have been a year when you, because you were there for 10 years.

23:43I would have talked about it. Yeah, 10 years. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So then, yeah, you probably were in the background as I was in the front getting a tour of the place. That's pretty funny. Well, that you wouldn't be the first person. There was a fun story where Chris Sturman, who photographs all of our work. I sat, Tom Billy sat like this. And for a while, I sat right in front of Billy. And they were, he was taking their portrait. And he must have, I mean, like, Chris took an hour and a half to take their portrait. It must have taken 400 photographs of them. But I was in the background. And I didn't realize this until probably, it must have been like six, seven years later

24:17when we started doing work and hiring Chris to do our photography, that he had actually taken a photograph of me in the background of Tom and Billy. And we had met before, which was, you know, pretty small world stuff. But, you know, reminder to always be on our best behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it's funny. Real quick on Chris Sturman is his last name, right? Sturman? Yes, that's right. Yep. Yeah. It's fascinating because, so he does really, really good architectural photography. And that also is much easier when the work is very good like yours, you know, that should

24:50be said. But he also does a bunch of other types of photography and that's not, like I often find that photographers who are good at, who are good at portraits and other, I don't know, lifestyle things, whatever they would call it, don't translate to architecture, the architectural vision. But he does a phenomenal job of capturing like moments, but also broad scope stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Chris's work, we started working together because for those very reasons.

25:21That, um, and I wanted, I don't really know exactly where this thought came from, but I didn't want a pure architectural photographer. And I also didn't want someone that just did lifestyle. And so Chris, Chris has a wide range where he is a very talented portrait photographer and he also does some lifestyle work and generally maybe doesn't do as much architectural work, but we really enjoy working with him and enjoy the sort of torturing him of like,

25:52you know, I think if, if anyway, we can talk about photography, but you know, it's like, no, we really want to be centered and we want the verticals vertical. And, you know, I think that that's probably not his intuition. And that was a more fun process for us to take, to, to, to work with somebody that, that might not be the first intuition, um, and, and have them sort of head in that direction, because I think there's warmth in that, that if you can take a photographer who can bring out some of the warmth in the work, um, and the personality of the work, I think that's really one of our

26:22goals there. Yeah. Those are great descriptions. Not to say that, not to imagine that like the perfect architectural photograph doesn't communicate in an extremely wonderful way, you know, um, but it just wasn't what we were looking for. But generally, as maybe we'll get into in the future conversations, um, we love working with the same people. And so he's the only person who's ever shot our work. And so he's shot, we've must've, we must've shot 30 projects together at this point. And so there's something really wonderful about maintaining those relationships. Um, you know, uh, making consistent work and making consistent photographs of that work.

27:00Yes. Yes, totally. Um, I think also on that same train of thought, and now, now we're sort of jumping forward. Do you perceive and know what things in your work are consistent? Like what is the through line from project to project to project? And also, did you have an idea of what that would be when you first started your own practice or did that naturally, uh, you know, happen on its own?

The Evolution of Studio Work

27:28Yeah.

The Evolution of Studio Work

27:29I would say that, that, uh, if there is a through line, we don't look at our work that way. Um, but I would say that it would be more subconscious and it was not intentional from the beginning. Um, and I think that when, when we started the studio, the projects that we were working on were smaller scale and, you know, to, to put them in a bucket, their kitchens and bathroom renovations. And those projects maybe don't have the highest degree of, uh, architectural ambition for our

28:02clients. And those projects have transitioned into other things. And so those smaller scale projects became about the detail. And you're really thinking about, you know, how this countertop meets this edge and how the wood pole somehow sits flush with the adjacent banquette millwork or whatever that detail may be. And what we've tried to evolve into, and maybe this is somewhat of a conscious through line that we hope, you know, we carry forward as a studio is that we understand that we're going to

28:33solve the details generally. And so it's important to step back and think more holistically about things and make sure that the schematic design moment is perfect, as perfect as we can make it with the time that we have. And to think about the architectural experience, not necessarily being reliant on those details, um, because those details are becoming more and more complex and difficult to pull off. And so if we can imagine that the architecture is successful from the holistic experience, um, that's really something that we've become more interested in as a studio.

29:05So, um, hopefully the work continues to evolve. I think that it would, well, it has to evolve. And I think that generally the, the, the through line or the commonality of those types of things is the general approach that we have of the, you know, the sensibilities we have towards form making or, or the soberness of the form making that we aspire to, as well as the, you know, the end resolution of trying to resolve our buildings and our projects. The soberness, that's a really good word to describe your work, actually.

29:36Um, the, I, I really appreciate that point about, um, uh, I'm going to kind of poorly paraphrase, but, but the project being successful in schematic design as a way to help ensure that it's, it is successful when it's built, uh, because details can get lost or value engineered is where my mind goes. You had said that the details, uh, are becoming or have become more difficult to, to realize. And what do you mean by that?

30:08Yeah, sure. So I think that, um, when we talk about details, maybe we can define the details a little bit. So as I look around the room that we're in, I'm looking at like a custom door pole and a custom door handle that we, that we created or, um, a ground concrete floor that exposes aggregate. And so as we move forward, you know, our studio is headed towards a decade. We're eight plus years old at this point. Um, we have found that the costs of doing some of those details and the availability of

30:41the people to create and craft those details as part of our larger project teams continues to be difficult. And so, or, or maybe becomes more difficult as time goes on, or maybe that's just a perception that I have. And so we have to collectively think about and put a lot of emphasis on, is that detail extremely critical to this project? Because I think as architects, we can fall into, here's detail, here's detail, and here's detail, and here's detail.

31:11And it's like, let's, let's, let's take out the eraser. Let's take out, let's take out the whiteout and let's, let's pull back and really ask what's essential about those moments. And so, um, they're still very important to us. Those, those specific things that you touch or, you know, the materiality of, uh, it's not a word, but the materials that we use. Um, but we have to make sure that as we move forward, that those are more forgiving in their installations, um, that something that is perfectly imperfect to us now is more interesting

31:44than something that is, quote, perfect. Uh, and that might be the difference between like looking at a beautiful Mies van der Rohe, like perfectly polished column verse some really textural brick that, you know, the mortar is sloppy, um, but it's intentionally sloppy. And there's more feedback on that material to us than something that implies a certain, um, false perfection. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a great point. And I think there's two thoughts that come to mind.

32:15We had interviewed, I think it was an architect on this show years ago and I'm blanking on their name or what the conversation was, but they were making a kind of a similar remark in that they were saying, you know, the success, like if you go to, uh, I forget the country might've been Denmark, but it's one of the kind of those kinds of countries. He's like the architecture there is done at a high standard, but all the architects are excited and they jazz about how every screw head, you know, is perfectly aligned to the one below it. And he's like, that's great. But like, you know, from a practical standpoint in other places, if that's not the ethos of

32:49everybody in the country, what are the chances that's going to happen? And then also at some level, and I've been thinking this more recently due to tight budgets for fire rebuilds in LA, like, is it a good thing? Uh, should good architecture require that amount of like OCD specificity? And, you know, the answer is probably like, there's a place for that, right? If there's a budget and the time to do that, then yeah, let's line all the screw heads. That's cool. That's fun stuff. But like, maybe there's an alternate path or other ways of doing it where we don't have

33:24to be that crazy about it. And then also blow up the costs in this. I mean, these things all add up to more and more money, frankly. I love, I love this topic of conversation. It is something, I feel like I'm thinking about this more than almost any other topic in architecture right now. You know, I've gone around our studio and even our client's house is at the end of jobs and turn the screw heads to be aligned. I've, I have done that. So like, the point is taken. And at some point, you need, we as architects need to ask ourselves, you know, is Carlos Scarpa's

34:00work still possible to create? Sure. But it's for, it's for somebody that has a net worth over a billion dollars. And that's not a bad thing. Those people, you know, they're not evil, but you have to, we have to consider as a studio, you know, what is the essential and what is the most powerful thing holistically? And maybe if it's a really small thing and it's a white box and there's one little object, that object can be perfect. And whatever that object is, maybe it's a cast glass panel with little bronze clips and

34:30the light comes through it and animates the entire space, which was an early detail that we, that we worked on. Those were super specific. Yeah. But like, but like, you know, like, but that, that is a moment in a whole and that became essential. But to imagine going to, you know, someone recently, one of my friends went to, and I had gone and dragged my family to the Aarhus City Hall years and years and years ago. And it was Arnie Jakobsen's Design City Hall. And if you look at this, the photographs or ever have the opportunity to go there, you

35:02totally should. But it's like Scarpa adjacent. It's like every screw head to use your Denmark reference, every piece of tile, every bent lamination, every wood flitch, everything had such precision and care, and it's been immaculately taken care of. And so in addition to the initial act of creating architecture, architecture exists in the world and people use it and people have to take care of it. And if we are so specific as architects and designers, as we get into those details,

35:35who's going to maintain that? And that's also a very, very important thing as we've gotten a little bit older and I have a little fewer, I have more gray hair, not fewer gray hairs. I have more gray hairs. It's really thinking about what does this building look like or this project look like five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now? Are we designing something that hopefully is timeless or at least timeless-ish and then timeless adjacent? And then are there people that can maintain these? If there is a very specific detail, how does that detail get maintained?

36:08Yeah.

Experiences of Space and Detail

36:09In a certain way, and I don't want to force fake narratives, but some of what you're talking about also ties back to the functional, I'm going to call it architecture of what you experience when you're traveling abroad. It's performative. It's very poetic. But it doesn't need to be perfect in order for it to be those, to be meaningful, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the most powerful spaces that you guys have been in that really resonate with you.

36:39But I would say the ones that have resonated most recently with me have been, they have almost lacked detail in a sense, that it is almost about at times the spaces between the architecture as opposed to the actual built thing. And I mean, that's maybe an obvious thing to say, but I think, I was thinking about recent travel experiences and seeing some of the, there was a Siza church outside of Porto, the one with the really tall, huge doors.

37:10I'm not going to try to pronounce it. And that is all about the singularity of space and the way that light plays within that volume. And yeah, there's this amazing cane bolt that holds that door shut that somebody, and he, you know, is this like cigarettes are like going like this, like are these crafting this thing, you know, together with this team and the folks that created that. But that space is not about that cane bolt detail. It is at least not to me. You know, that cane bolt detail is really special, but the door that it sits on is like, I don't

37:43even know, 35, 40 feet tall, 30 feet tall. And I think that the whole becomes, has become really important in the way that we've thought about the work, knowing that the detail work that we're trying to do can't be distractful from the whole. And I think that that's, um, hopefully where the studios work heads. Interesting. So, and now a quick break to thank the sponsors who support the second studio.

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38:46The program is award-winning, transformative, and crafted for design and architecture leaders with 15 or more years of experience. If you're ready to grow your impact, apply now by tapping the future London Academy link in our show notes. This episode is brought to you by Chaos. They make award-winning design and visualization tools, and they're really pushing the boundaries with AI. Now, AI is shaking up the architecture and design world, and Chaos is taking a responsible approach. Their tools are built to help architects, designers, and visualization specialists to work faster

39:17and explore more ideas without replacing creativity. Basically, Chaos wants AI to make your imagination stronger, not take over. So you get to design with more freedom, create stunning visuals, and stay in control of your work. If you want to see what that looks like, tap the Chaos link in our show notes. Aside from, and not to diminish the value of space making, but does this train of thought also, how does it apply to the future details you guys are trying to do?

39:47I think you mentioned the materiality, which is an architect word, but you're right, it's not really a word. The materials, you know, embracing the kind of imperfection is one thing. Does that mean also that planning for, what do I say, like planning for less precision? Or I don't know, like how does some of these things further translate into, because your work does have beautiful details, right? And, um, that's a big strength of it. And so I'm thinking like, how does this train of thought impact those things?

40:18Oh, we, this is like a, this is kind of going in a different direction, but a recent conversation with a client was talking about, in our first design presentation was talking about how we would want to design this building. So it can be taken apart one day, which is also just kind of a weird way to start a design presentation with a new client. Um, that was actually, that was like, whoa, what are you, what are we doing? But to think of, think, but to think about, um, but to think about also how that building could, even though it was being built very specifically, how it could one day be renovated

40:50into something else, um, and have the building systems and the structure be flexible enough to adapt to something else in the future. Um, that's not exactly what you were asking, but I think, but I think just generally, um, we're going to always be interested in those details, uh, but they have to be in service of the whole. Yeah.

Efficiency and Teamwork in Practice

41:15And I think, um, I'm sure that some of the transition or the evolution of the office too, as a result of the scale of the work, like you said, if you go from kitchens and bathrooms, the things you're looking at are obviously a much smaller scale and the details are, are a big part of the project. But then when you do like apartment complexes or larger, you know, multifamily things or whatever else, like there's a lot, there's a lot more to play with other than that. Um, and I, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, please. Yeah. You have to be as a small studio.

41:46So, you know, this ties into there's a, we're a small, like, you know, we're a small studio. I, my ambition is to keep the studio small. Uh, we have a table for eight people. We all sit around one table. And when we take on larger projects, the ambition doesn't change. We want that project to be great. But at the same time, we have to find some efficiencies in that process, both because of a fee structure that generally, you know, for those types of projects makes the project feasible. But, but also there's a certain amount of work that can go into those jobs for the people

42:21who are working on them. And so we can't burn ourselves out on any one detail. And so the details need to be repeatable. Ideally, the layouts are efficient and figured out and, and maybe those are repeatable, but so that you might have the ability of one or two, two and a half architects working on a 30,000 square foot building and being able to resolve that building down to maybe the screw head, like that's entirely possible, but everything can't be jazz. There needs to be a little classical in there.

42:51There needs to be repetition. There needs to be rigor applied to that. So that once the builder understands one particular detail, it can be rolled out universally in a project, as opposed to saying, okay, well, this corner is one detail and that corner is another detail. That's another detail. That's another detail. Because at some point, like even just the CA of that is like, we're going to spend an hour talking about this and an hour talking about this and an hour talking about that. And, um, that's just not feasible at the scale of work that, you know, we're, we're starting

43:21to embark on, which is the, you know, 10,000 to 100,000 square foot projects. I also think that given a small team. Um, yeah, that, that's, it's very impressive. That's not small. No, it's not small. It's also a very intelligent and economical and a positive sense, uh, you know, approach to architecture. Like, I think there's a tendency sometimes, I think amongst creatives, including architects, when we hear the word like efficiency or, or, uh, uh, let's say efficiency, we kind of

43:55think that's like a bad thing. We kind of think it's like, it's a bad thing. Cause we associate that with like, but now, or just boring repetition, but actually it's, it's very smart in the way that you're doing it because it's really about maximizing the, uh, the end product and, and the, the, the experience, you know, with, with, uh, precious resources are being, you're being, you're being smart with the resources, you know, for big impact. A hundred percent. There's a trade-off. There's a, you know, it's a zero sum game.

44:25So if you, if all your energy goes to one thing, the rest of it is not going to be what it could be. And as an example, it's like going to a recent mass timber project, you know, that project was in some ways ruthlessly efficient in its planning. Um, and if it didn't have certain considerations, it wouldn't have been a timber building. It would have had to have been a different type of building or the front gate wouldn't have been a CLT panel would have been something else that maybe it was a little bit more efficient, but those trade-offs are really, really important to, to think about and to consider, to understand

45:01the word that jumped into my mind when you started talking, which is that the work, like the dirt, it seems like the dirtiest word in architecture, which is compromise. And, um, you know, I think that compromise is not necessarily a terrible word and it's a difficult word for all of us. And it's especially difficult for young architects, um, to get their head around. But oftentimes those compromises can yield really amazing solutions to problems. And, um, and, um, and I, I think as we've gotten, um, more established as a studio where it's

45:36not, it's not a bad word. And, and I think that that is something that is, is just needed more of an architecture is to not say this, there's this pristine, perfect idea and thing, you know, that's one person's voice or there may be a place for that in the world going forward. But I think there's a more interesting story that's, um, larger and more holistic that, um, hopefully a newer generation of architects can put forward. Uh, yeah, you're, you're leading into, I, I, I agree entirely.

46:08And I also agree with the point that it's sometimes harder for younger architects to maybe fully embrace or understand this concept. And, and maybe it just has to do with experience and nothing to do with the individual. Um, but to, to, to make, how do I say this? To make good compromises, um, and to be, I'll just reuse the word efficient and then how you're designing something is actually requires like an immense amount of skill and patience as well. Uh, but an immense amount of skill more so than doing something crazy and being like, it's

46:43not enough money, then find more money and just do it because that's actually, it's not easy to do, but it relative to, to the compromise of compromising, I think it's easy to do. It's too easy to do. And at some level it feels again, slightly irresponsible. I think it all goes back to the, you know, what you were saying about, you know, the notion of editing the design and editing, you know, the projects, like compromising, being efficient, kind of like all comes down to that. And I think it's, I mean, like you said, for maybe younger creative, it's hard to kind of like let go of that initial perfect vision, right.

47:16And kind of think like, no, that's not going to happen. Like you have to find, you know, more ways to make it happen in the real, real life. Um, but I, yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. Go ahead. I was going to say, you make it one of those projects in your lifetime and, but not every project is going to be the uncompromised, non-patient project. And so one of the, one of the things that I have tried to put out into the world and

47:47reinforce on a day-to-day basis, though it's difficult, is the general concept of we, not I. And it was a, it's sort of a founding principle of our studio, at least, you know, something I wrote down and thought heavily about, because I would go and think about the lectures that I had seen or the way that architects talked about their work. And many people refer to a project that involves 10 people, a hundred people, a thousand people with the word I, and it is absolutely a team sport.

48:19And, um, you know, that compromise that happens, we all have good ideas. Everybody, you guys have great ideas. Occasionally I have a good idea. Uh, our clients have wonderful ideas. Our consultants have wonderful concepts and thoughts. And as much of those that we can absorb into a project, the project will become better for it. And if we are hone our ability to edit those thoughts, we can construct a hole that involves all of those ideas. And hopefully in the end, the experience of that project isn't feeling as though it was

48:52compromised. Um, and so I think like just bigger picture, um, you know, starting by listening is never a bad idea. Um, no, and it also, this is, uh, another conversation for the next recording with you, but it's a, it's a larger question in architecture of like, are we still in starkitect mode? Is that still, uh, you know, this hypothetical, uh, rhetorical question, but like, is that still the thing that we collectively are trying to, to, to do, or each of us are trying to do?

49:23Is that what students should be trying to do? Um, or, or are we moving more toward the, we, the, we approach, like you said, I would, I would really hope it gets heads in the direction of me. And, and, but I will tell you, there are forces in the world that, that, that, that story is not as interesting to tell as an eye. And so the magazine, like there's so many, and, um, and we're starting to see some of that as the work becomes more public and maybe more out there in the world that, uh, that

49:55story to tell about the studio sitting around one table is a difficult design Genesis story to tell. And I think it's incumbent upon all of us that, that are part of studios or run studios to continue to, it's not going to happen every day. Uh, but we can try to make it happen every day. And, um, you know, as an example, a recent commission that we received there where our project architect, we would print things out and just put it around the table and everybody

50:26would weigh in and make almost like everybody needs to talk and everybody throws out ideas and we were there editing it together. And it was some of our best work that we've collectively done. And it came from multiple voices. Um, and so hopefully the, hopefully we as architects can continue to tell that story and reinforce it because I think it's a healthier narrative than the architects sitting at a drafting table, drawing the concept, handing it to somebody, they draft it up, they come back, we make some, you know, that person makes them, you know, sketches that goes back and it kind of does that

50:58thing. Um, you know, there's some of that that needs to happen just for efficiency sake, but at the same time, the conversation can be more broad than that. Yeah, I agree. I also agree that there are, would you say forces that are perpetuating the, the other, uh, the other narrative and, and publications certainly do that. Um, I'm on my head also goes toward, you know, if you look at interior designers as a profession and on the West coast, interior designers are much more separated from architects and on

51:29the East coast, I've, I've learned quite painfully and I don't agree with it, but that's what it is. But like interior designers are like the extreme example of the individual or the ego being at the, the title. I mean, fucking half the time the photograph of their work is not their work. It's a headshot of them and the space is behind them. I'm like, what are we doing? Like, why do I care that you're wearing Gucci in this space? But it seems to be, but it seems to be what certain publications push and it also seems

52:01to be, and this is, you guys are getting into it. I love it. This is great. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We can go on. But it also makes me wonder, like maybe more pessimistically. Um, and I don't know if this would, I don't think this should shape what we do as architects, but like, is that human nature? Is that what like the people crave? They want the, the one hero is they, they want to, you know, have the, the, the Brad Pitt or the Frank Gary or is, is that the thing that like, we're just always searching for? I don't know. I think people like, I think people like brands, by the way, these are amazingly relevant

52:35topics of conversation that, you know, behind the scenes, you know, the horizontal architects in Brooklyn that are throughout the United States, then we're on our text chains and we talk to one another and we go and get dinner and, you know, talk about these issues. These are things that we talk about. And, um, so I think that they should be put on the table there.

Architecture versus Interior Design

52:56There is a recent example. I'm not going to name the publication. I'm not going to name the interior designer, but you can tell us off air. I'll tell you off air. And there's a, and I've been in the, I've been in this particular project before when Andrew Berman completed this project and, um, I was interviewing the builder. Uh, this was probably about eight years ago. Um, and somebody recently, you know, I would, you know, did a, did a project there and it

53:26was published and it was 90% of furniture project. None of the recent press around that particular, uh, project mentioned the original architect. And I think that we, as an architect, as architects need to consider why the world is, is okay with that and, and embraces that. Um, and I think that interior design, and it happens a lot in New York city is that, well,

53:58one, we're in interior spaces a lot in New York city. So ground up things here are, um, are more rare and just in terms of commissions. And so architects were playing with, you know, scooping the guts out of old buildings and putting new guts into them. Um, a lot of that is the work that we do and a lot of it involves interior design. And so over our careers, we have seen interior design grab a lot of our scope and responsibility, um, and bring it under the umbrella of, of ID. And, you know, I, I guess my advice for architects is to be able to have that conversation as well

54:35as to educate ourselves on what interior design about how we can become better at interiors as well, because I think they are different mindsets. They are different ways of thinking about space. And some clients think in one way, and some think it like some of our clients thinking as interior, that interior design is design. Some of them think that architecture is design. And, and I think that there's two different minds at play there. And so, you know, our long-term dream as a studio is to do holistic projects. And some of our recent projects are, are that we've actually never had a project where we

55:08have, you know, the interior design is done by a third party. And so we want to continue that trend and continue to refine both the architectural side, as well as the interior design side of things. Um, so that the projects feel like it's one hand, um, or at least that they're, it's cohesive and it's not, um, you know, sometimes these types of projects become oil and vinegar. And, um, and I just want to, you know, you walk through, you walk through an architect's building into another designer's interiors.

55:39And sometimes that is a magic, like sometimes it's absolutely incredible. And I think sometimes it's not, and we just have to be conscious of that as an industry. Um, yeah, but I don't think we can demonize interior design and we can't demonize interior designers and we can't, we also have to look at ourselves as to why some of these forces are at play. And I think that, um, it can come down to branding. I think that it can come down to what can be easily digestible in a photograph, you know, like so much of the media that our clients digest us through Instagram or through, you

56:11know, Pinterest or other forms of social media. And so, you know, uh, it's, it's, we're never going to do this, but I'm like thinking of this beautiful, like simple or a scarf glass with like a little bit of water and you put, put a flower arrangement there and you get, you get some nice lifestyling moments. Cause a lot of people respond to that as a, as a moment. Um, and that's not necessarily what we do. That's like a happy accident in, in terms of from the space and the skylight and the window and, you know, everything else. Um, but if we can communicate that those opportunities still exist within the, the sphere of our work,

56:46um, you know, the project will be better for it. But I also say, I know, I know I'm like rambling on, but I would also say in our experience, the projects that we've done that have been the most successful, um, you know, like when you do residential work or frankly, any work it's, if there's an architect and the client does the interior design or there's an architect that does it and there's a kind of a helping hand on the interior design, those projects can turn out okay. But the ones that really have them, like, you know, you walk in and you feel the thing,

57:20that project is the project where the architect and the interior designer are, are, are very much in sync with one another. And whether that's a third party or whether that's, you know, all in house of an architect or an interior designer, those, those things, um, they need to coexist in a really wonderful way. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. What incredibly well said the branding point is, is also a great one because the, the last thing I'll say with this is that the interior design profession as a whole is doing a much

57:54better job at captivating the, the audience or, you know, the, the clients and their attention and conveying information to them that clients for the most part are more interested in than architects. And there's, I think there's a lot of reasons why that's the case, uh, you know, valid and invalid ones, but it, it, it's there. Um, and I think to your point, the architects, you should, you should recognize that and think about, think about that and, and try to convey ourselves to the general public in a way that

58:26is more accessible and yes, enticing. And that means having a brand or whatever else. I think that's all true. Um, you know, we were joking before we started recording the architects are sometimes not the most, are sometimes pretty socially awkward people. And I, and I don't know, I don't know, maybe that's part of the, the, you know, what's, what's causing this kind of, this gap, let's say. Um, they think too much about the screw heads. They think too much about the screw heads. They're too, they're too much in like the, the conceptual CAD, whatever technical space. Yeah, maybe, um, well, I want to say like, as an example, what's funny about like that

59:02is, uh, you know, my wife is not an architect and my children are clearly not architects, but they're, um, maybe, maybe one of them has said it that way, or maybe both, I don't know, but we'll have long car rides. We do a lot of long car rides for, for whatever reason. And occasionally I'll be on the phone with another architect and we'll have a conversation. My wife, it's like, I'm a different person almost, you know? And it's just like, what was, what was that like, like, you know, is that what's inside it? Is that the man that I married? Like, you know, over, over a decade ago, but you know, we, we have in some ways our own

59:39telepathy, like we have our own languages, like we have the, our own ways of communicating with one another. So we seek each other out, but it's also a shared experience. You know, we go to a bar and we'll have a drink and we can talk about, you know, the recent struggles and successes that we've had as architects because architecture is hard. And so the people that generally can understand the difficulty of that journey are other people that share it with you. So if it's your wife or your partner, husband or your partner or, um, or other architects, like that's, I think why architects can gravitate to other architects, um, because of the,

1:00:13yeah, because of the care and craft of what we do, as well as, uh, that our experience in the world is very unique from other professions and that's okay to be, and that's great. It is. And I, and I think it becomes, to me, the, the biggest question that the profession or our group of species, you know, faces is how do we become better at conveying these things to everyone else and conveying our value, uh, our sincere value that we, you know, we bring to, to the world.

1:00:44And it's not something that has, I don't see that being, I guess, studied. I don't know how it would be studied, but like, as there's, doesn't seem to be enough work going toward that. Uh, we're very good at drilling deeper into our own expertise of what I would, some, on the extreme end, call architectural research of form making. And, you know, back in the day, we're still now parametricism. We're like, whatever, we're good at that stuff. But we, for, but we just, we, we go further and further into this black box. And there's, I know, you know, this is a lot of architects who then become more and more,

1:01:18uh, you know, disgruntled with the world. And I'm like, you know, that's not really a, uh, that's not really going to help. Like you can't do that. Right. Cause the world is going to be the world. You have to figure a way to speak to people and I don't know. And, you know, whatever else. I mean, I think that those, uh, maybe that's one of those forces, but, um, yeah, what, what you said something that really sparked, sparked something in me and I'm trying to just recall it here for a second, but, um, well, I think, I think, I think what you guys are

1:01:50doing as podcasters and put an architects as a practicing architects that have real world experiences that you can articulate in a really clear way. Cause I've listened to a lot of you guys, um, that it's been really refreshing to hear it because it's a lot of those topics and thoughts are in our minds and you are putting this out into the world and people that listen to it will be better prepared as clients or architects or consultants because of those things.

1:02:22Um, because you pull the, you're, you're helping pull the mystery away in some degree and saying like, here's where we can help. And it's not just in making a beautiful, pretty picture that architecture is so much more complex than that. We have so much more to offer than that. And it, it is also in the attitude and our ability as architects to like, you know, try to smile and to try to communicate on human, on human terms to people, as opposed to like, look, look over our glasses at people or turn our noses up and, and speak in a very, like

1:02:56there's a work there, you know, the academic part of architecture is incredible and it's really inspiring. And like, you know, we all came out of it. Um, but at the same time, a lot of the general population of clientele, uh, they would be so lost and uninterested in that. And so on one hand, we're presenting as a profession that, which cannot be understood. And to go back to our previous conversation on the other side of it is a beautiful picture of a really comfortable, expensive living room sofa that someone can very easily imagine

1:03:31them and their family enjoying a glass of wine sitting in. And so if you were to show those things to two people, you know, or a hundred people, some would prefer this and someone prefer this, but I would take a bet that more people would understand this side of it. Um, you know, then the, the, the more academic side of what, what, what some of our conversations are. That's a very, very clear and concise, uh, way to describe a big, big topic. I want to talk about your Clinton Hill, uh, I said apartment or condos.

1:04:02I'm not even sure. Those were, that's a, that's a rental building. It's a rental building. And I think that's the one you were referring to when you were talking about mass timber and the, uh, plywood panel, uh, door. So I would move into that rental, like in a heartbeat. We, we lived in Clinton Hill, which is partly why I have like an, we were on the edge of Clinton Hill and Bed-Stuy. That's true. Fair. We were on the cusp of Clinton Hill and more like Bed-Stuy. Well, no, we were on the threshold. Yeah. You're right. It's all soup at this point, to be honest. Yeah. Soup.

1:04:33Like, where is Ford? Ford is, I mean, if you talk to a broker, like a Bed-4 Green goes like way out of Bed-Stuy at this point. This is East Williamsburg. No, dude, that's Bushwick. We're like, wait, we're like multiple stops in the Bushwick. Oh no, it's East Williamsburg. Shut up. A hundred, a hundred percent that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, but so with that project, um, I actually, I don't have any questions lined up, except that I think it's a really, really well done project.

1:05:03And actually full disclosure, I was on the jury. You guys won something for it, right? We did win something for it. Yeah. We won, um, uh, the AI Brooklyn awarded it the best, uh, best of Brooklyn AIA last year, I guess it's called, um, and it was like upstairs in a closet somewhere. But, uh, yeah, uh, so the funny thing is that you need to wear those things very lightly because the world has a tendency to humble you really quickly.

1:05:30It's a day later. Well, it was, uh, I, yeah. Any questions? I, I, I love talking about the project. The funny thing was, is that I was actually a part of the jury for, to review the Brooklyn awards. And when, um, well, I can only speak for myself, but I also feel like the other, for the other jurors, when that project came up, I was like, whoa, this is a good, this is, this is solid. Like there's not, you know, sometimes I, you know, this, when you're looking at projects, you're, you're, I know, you know, not to be pessimistic, but you're kind of like looking like, okay, what's the weak spot? Like, what's the one point of critique I would have?

1:06:02But that one, I was like, this is just, it's just strong. Um, and you guys have immaculate details. How did this project come around? Because I think in it, it, it, it, it, it, it's not only good architecture, but it's an example of like, you know, on paper, the idea of a, of a, of an established and good architecture studio doing it, an apartment building in Clinton Hill, which I guess has been gentrified. So that changes the narrative, but in Clinton Hill, it's like, well, those for a developer probably like those don't add a rental to a rental, like that just doesn't compute.

1:06:33And yet here it is. And it's credit to the client, I believe as well.

Building a Mass Timber Project in Brooklyn

1:06:37Right.

Building a Mass Timber Project in Brooklyn

1:06:38But so I don't know, how did it take place? Um, how did it go? So this, this is a unicorn project for our studio and, uh, just forever indebted to those particular clients. For everything that they did, um, for that project. And so I think that that project story needs to start with those particular clients, which are Fred and Joanne Wilson, and they, uh, are very forward thinking people. And they started a development company called Frame Home. And the idea was to develop in Brooklyn specifically, and in the neighborhoods that we're talking about

1:07:11here, um, sustainable buildings that are built hopefully of wood, uh, but that minimize their carbon footprint and that is their ethos. And so that just as a starting point for a project takes a project from like here to there so fast. And so, um, CLT was not legal in New York City up until 2022 was when the new building code was adopted. And so that building is the first legal, um, CLT building built under the new building code.

1:07:46And just as an example, how amazing these clients are, they, they, the, we argued with the DOB to allow us to pull a permit to do the excavation and put the foundation in place while we waited for the city council to approve the new building code, which allowed that the upper structure of the building to legally exist in New York City. And so as the, the day we had one objection left, uh, I don't know how familiar are the

1:08:16New York City, like DOB process, but we had one objection left at the department of buildings, which was adopt the new building code. And the day later we pressed go on all the CLT and mass timber shop drawings that we had coordinated. Um, everybody had a good idea that this was going to become legal, but just to take that risk and that chance is something that, um, you know, I'll forever remember and just an amazing opportunity. Uh, so that, that particular building, you know, gave our studio the opportunity to think about passive house standards, um, in a, in a rental building to do blower door tests,

1:08:49um, on every single unit and prove out air leakage standards at a, uh, in every single unit and fix those particular holes where they may have existed. Um, and hopefully set a precedent of development that shows that things like this are possible at a smaller scale in New York City. So that's not a huge building. That's a 30,000 square foot building. And so, um, which is a big building for our studio, but I think just for New York City is not a huge building. Um, and it says that you can hire a, hopefully a forward thinking design centric architecture

1:09:21studio who will put a lot of sweat equity into something like that because they believe holistically in that project and the client and their, and their mission. And so, um, the specifics of that job, the curving staircases, um, you know, we came to the first meeting and showed a building that was a rectangle because our expediter, we, we went to them and showed them a courtyard and they were like, Brent, don't even try to do that. They were like, make this a rectangular building. There's no courtyard. There's one, you know, they're like, no, one's ever going to buy into that.

1:09:52We go to the first meeting and the client says, well, what about a courtyard building? And they had, they had recent experiences, um, you know, in the upper west side, upper east side of walking into buildings like the Apthorpe that had this incredible courtyard in the middle and these corner entrances. And, um, we said, it's probably going to be a little bit more expensive. And they said, you know, the value is going to be in the experiences inside those apartments because of the additional natural light that's going to come into them and the experience of not walking in a dark CMU bunker, you know, fire stair and to make something sculptural

1:10:24that satisfies the building code. Um, and so, you know, that's a very unique and wonderful project, uh, for our studio and hopefully for the people that live there. Um, interestingly enough, they, the tenants, you know, invited me over there to give a presentation. The building leased up, leased up very, very quickly. Um, yeah, we've stayed with the project as best, you know, as, as, as we can. It's like, if there's a light flickering, like, you know, I hear about it and we try to, try to problem. Like I'm the architect, call the GC. Well, you know, there's definitely that, but, um, but the interesting, so an interesting

1:10:59lesson for architects in this is some people say like, how'd you get this job? Cause we've never done that job before. Right. And I had done, um, those, our clients, uh, alongside of them, um, I had done their apartment in Manhattan and it was over COVID and we had an amazing experience. The project went, you know, we were like at the end, like, I want to say less than, less than 3% over budget. And even though it was through COVID and we ended like literally to the day that the project schedule set.

1:11:29So it was an amazingly successful project. And so we ended up walking down the street together, you know, a year later and they were like, do you want to design an apartment building? And I'm like, I've never done that before. And they're like, you'll figure it out. And, you know, to have a, have a client have that trust, um, is, is really a special thing. And so the lesson is we're never really sure what's going to, what, what our hard work is going to lead to. And, and you can't really have a plan for that, like ascendant career. You just have to put like one foot in front of the other and solve this problem.

1:12:02And the next problem, it gets more complex and complicated and you solve that one. And then you just keep taking those steps and, and, um, maybe somebody else has it figured out and they had got their whole career charted out, but like, but like, that's not, that's not, not me at all. Right. So, um, we just put our head down and get back to work. That's awesome. I know we're, we were right at the hour. So I want to ask the final question, which is a fun one.

Favorite Buildings and Travel Memories

1:12:25We always ask is what is your favorite building? Oh, so, um, you know, full disclosure, I knew you were going to say this because I, uh, because I've listened to the podcast, I think you can separate this question into two parts, classic architectural response. You can, I can talk about a favorite building and there's also favorite architectural experiences, because as I said earlier, I think of buildings as not just the architecture itself, but the experiences of you have as a, as somebody in them.

1:12:58And maybe that building allowed you to have that experience or maybe not. So some recent wonderful experiences I'll talk about, but my favorite building in the world that I've visited multiple times is on the out. And it's funny that you brought up Denmark earlier is on the outskirts of Copenhagen and it's called Gründvig's church. And Gründvig's church is designed by Clint and his, and his son did the furniture, I believe the chairs inside of it. But the reason I love it, there's, there's three reasons that I love this building. And the first is I think it has the best natural light of any building I've ever been in.

1:13:30For whatever reason, the light feels like honey when you're inside of it. It's just incredibly powerful. The second is there's really one material. And they're able to generate so much complexity out of essentially a standard brick, which is just mind-boggling. And there's six, I think there's six million bricks and every single one of them to the screw head point is meticulously placed. You would be hard pressed to find one brick out of place in that, in that particular project. And the third is maybe more of the first impulse of the architect, which is the form of the building

1:14:03relates to historical churches throughout the countryside of Denmark, as I understand it. And I've driven across Denmark and seen similar forms. And so I think that, you know, there was a departure point and this building became very different than its historic precedences, but it didn't just come from nothing. It came from something. And I think that that continuity is certainly something we think about as architects. But an important consideration that we're not just landing, you know, UFOs out in the world.

1:14:35They have relationships to other things. And that context is always very important. So that is a favorite building for sure. And a favorite architectural experiences. I drag my family who are not architects all over the world to wonderful architectural things, because I'm very much an architect at heart.

1:14:55And a few years ago, we did a Peter Zumther sort of, you know, for my wife, that she got to go to Val's in the spring and like the, you know, the Peter, you know, Peter Zumther's masterpieces there, I'm going to be at a spa essentially. And for me, it's the, you know, being able to actually experience that building was very special. But on the next, in the next valley, there's a small Swiss architect, there's an architect, his name is Guillaume Caminata, and his work is all wood.

1:15:26And he grew up in a very small village called Vrin, I believe it's V-R-I-N. And he did a number of houses there, he did, he did sort of an extension to a church there, and he's done a number of other projects. And he did a little, maybe the most famous was like the size of this table that I'm sitting around, which was a little, like a bus stop. And so we're walking through this village, and I'm with my children, and we are walking around

1:15:58this house that this particular architect had designed. And out pops a young, a young girl, my daughter at the time was five, I think this child was six. And they can't speak the same language, but they start interacting. And she's got a little, little swing set, and they start playing together. And then, you know, 20 minutes later, as I'm sitting there staring at the corner and trying to figure out the architecture, her mother comes out. And it turns out, you know, she could speak English, and we were able to communicate.

1:16:28And that was Bian Caminata's cousin, and he had built this house for her. What? And she welcomed us into this house. And it turned out that it was the six-year-old girl's birthday. And this town had, like, three children under the age of 16. And so the highlight of this day for the six-year-old was that on her birthday, there was this five-year-old American that she could play with. And I have these incredible photographs of, like, my daughter on top of, like, dancing on top of their dining table and just experiencing the architecture holistically

1:17:01as the way a family would experience this particular house, as though it was lived in and not as if it was the static, perfect object. And I think that we've had a lot of travel experiences similar to that because we were open to it, because we went on those journeys. And so, you know, you think of, like, going to Baragon's San Cristobal courtyard that you turn the water on, and you're there, and your children are running around. And there's just, there's so many rich travel experiences that generally my favorite

1:17:33architecture at this point is the architecture that we as a family have the ability to have those types of experiences because of. So they're layered with memory as opposed to just, like, the static, like, this is this perfect thing.

1:17:48You know, but those are also really inspiring. So that's my answer to your, what's your favorite building question? That's a phenomenal answer, a phenomenal two-part answer. Brent, thank you so much for making the time. This was truly a pleasure. If you're ever out on the West Coast, let me know. If you're on the East Coast again, we'll let you know. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And thank you guys for, well, for being jurors and getting, you know, and for that.

1:18:15Thank you very much. That was a wind in our sails, as I like to say. But again, we wear it lightly because the world humbled us quickly. And the other is just, like, continue doing this podcast because I don't know who, you know, I don't know who exactly the listeners are. But you're doing wonderful work on behalf of the profession of architecture because you're exposing these real issues that we think about to people and potential clients and other architects.

1:18:45And it helps to frame the wider conversation. So thank you for your work. That's awesome. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, everyone, for listening to our episode this week. If you want to support our show, then the best way to do that is to leave a review of us in the Apple Podcast app or on Spotify. You can follow us. I don't know if you can leave reviews there. You probably can. And then we're on YouTube as well. You can also find us on Instagram. The handle is Second Studio Pod. Join the community there. We have clips, quotes, work images, announcements.

1:19:15And we have a website which is also Second Studio Pod. And if you want to reach out to us, all those places are fine. You can also text our hotline number, which is 213-222-6950 or call and leave a voicemail for any guest suggestions, topics, questions, things like that. Thanks again, everybody. Appreciate it. More fun stuff coming soon. Talk soon. Bye.