#523 - After Hours: Craftsman-Style Homes, The Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego Remodel, and The San Diego Zoo!

Local trip introduction

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by two architects, myself, David Lee, and Marina Bordero-René. This week it's just the two of us in the studio in a casual after-hours chat. And I think we're going to talk about a recent little trip we did, a local trip. We saw San Diego, we saw Topanga, we saw... What's the beach that we went to? Hermosa? Yeah. Yeah, which is not really... It's like next door to her. And Malibu, also not really very adventurous there, but that's what we did, and that's what we're going to talk about.

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1:06Join the ranks of leading studios using Programma today. Click the Programma link in our show notes to start for free. Today's episode is supported by Acelab. One of the messiest parts of taking a project from design to construction is everyone, meaning your team, the contractor, the owner, and the manufacturer reps, working from different versions of your material information. Somebody's got a PDF from six months ago. The spec says one thing, the drawing says another. A substitution comes in, and nobody can remember what the original intent even was. Acelab's mature hub fixes that at the source.

1:38It is a shared platform, one live record. Architects, contractors, owners, and manufacturers are all connected to the same data in real time. If you want to learn more, tap the Acelab link in our show notes. I love how you always downplay anything we do. It's just like, oh yeah, we just did that. Well, yeah, it's better than doing nothing, isn't it? Yeah. I'm so tired of being sick. Like, this whole year has been, you know. Actually, we had a good stretch of health. The beginning of the year was really bad.

2:09From like January to like May, I think we were sick like all the time. And then the summer was fine. A good stretch, meaning June and July. Yeah. In my case, I was sick. Then I got sick again. It's just a waste of time is what I hate the most. I mean, I hate feeling sick, but it's also just a massive waste of time.

Renting cars and driving

2:30All right, so take us through the trip. How did it start? Yeah, well, it started on a beautiful Wednesday afternoon sometime in September. Two French people made their way over from France via air traffic, landed in a Los Angeles airport. I drove the rental car like twice during my parents' stay. I think once was to go to the grocery store one morning and another time was to like drop them off or something.

3:03Yeah, short trips. Yeah. So like, you know, down the street, like two minutes. The thing is, I'm not a really experienced. Well, I mean, I'm not. No, you're not. Don't backtrack. I don't drive very much. Yeah. I got my license, you know, just a few years ago because I'm an urban bird. You know, I use public transportation in most, most, hey. What is it? Is it a pigeon? Those are the birds that you find in cities? Yeah. Pigeon. Yeah, they're gross though. Sewer pigeon. Oh, thank you. No, subway pigeon.

3:33Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, again, you know, I lived in like Paris, New York, San Francisco for a little bit. Like all of those have good public transportation systems. Like why bother with the car? LA is a whole other story. So you have to bother with the car, which is why I got my license. But also it's helpful to, you know, know how to drive. So anyway, I don't drive a whole lot. And we have an electric car, which I've learned to love despite my anxiety. Because I learned on a gas car. So I was a little bit like, oh, this whole like lift your foot and it slows down.

4:06I was like, this is a little weird. Oh no, it's amazing. It actually feels very natural. So anyway, I drove that car, you know, side note, a couple of times. And I've drove in a minute before and I have no problem with the size of it. Actually, I think it's easier because you see better. And also there is like a rear view mirror and an actual window in the back. So you go turn around to check things, which with the car we have, we don't have that. You don't need it. You don't. No, you don't need it. I mean, you get used to it. You don't need it.

4:37We have a camera. But anyway, so I'm driving this thing and I haven't driven a gas car in forever because of, you know, the fact that we have an electric car. And I'm like backing out of the spot in the parking garage, you know, where we live. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This pedal is super sensitive. Like you barely push and like the thing goes. And I was like, wow, okay, okay. Hold on here. So I ended up going to the grocery store. I parked the car. I didn't see those cars where you push the button to start, right? Yeah. So I pushed the button to start, make my way there.

5:09Awful ride. Thank God I was by myself. I was like, I'm making myself a car sick. This is terrible. Like you, you know, you actually have to use the brake pedal. And then if you don't even push the gas pedal, the car moves, which I was very confused. I'm like, why the fuck is the car moving? I'm not doing anything. That was normal. Yeah, it is normal. But it, but you know, I mean, I guess you get used to things very quickly. You forget, you know, how the things used to work before. Anyway, I make my way, you know, five minute drive away to the grocery store, part of the car, grab my stuff, do my errands.

5:40I come out of the grocery store and I see there was like, you know, it was like eight o'clock on Saturday morning. There was no one on the parking lot except like a handful of cars. I see the minivan and I approach and I hear the motor running and I'm like, I'm looking around, I'm like, is David here? I'm like, why is the motor running? And I'm like very confused. And then I'm like, oh, you know what? I think you have to push the button to turn it off and you have to push the button to turn it off, which I didn't know because I've never had a car that, you know, had a button

6:12to push. And when you park the car, it sounds like the car is turning off. Yeah. The engine stops. The engine stops. So I did my thing, lock the car and whatever. And when I came back, I freaked out. I was like, oh my God, I left the car on this whole time. You know, I mean, it wasn't busy or anything, but it's a little weird though, because I would have thought that you'd need the key inside of the car or near the car to keep it running. I made the same mistake. Oh, you did? Yeah. Oh, okay. I forget. I was like, oh my God, I can't tell David. He's going to be like, getting at me, be like, what?

6:43What? I don't care. I mean, gas cars just feel super archaic. Oh, it's terrible. And it's like, why are so minivans? Like they have like, you know, nothing in their stomach. So you push the pedal. It's like, oh, just trying to get forward. I feel like, I feel like cars that don't have a lot of horsepower, they, they, they compensate by having a very sensitive, um, like a gas pedal threshold. Yeah. But then if you actually need to have power when you're driving, it's just not there. Yeah. So like when you're driving the hills and Topanga, they're just, there just wasn't

7:16power. Yeah. Which I have to say a minivan to drive in like mountains or whatever, it's not the most reassuring as a passenger. That's why you're supposed to have like a four. I mean, it was fine. It was fine. But a Chrysler Pacifica is not exactly like the most luxurious of vehicles. It's not what it's known for, but it was, it was fine. What we needed. I was tempted when I picked up the car, um, I forget who we rented from, but they were like, okay, you know, go to that aisle and any of the vans you see in that aisle, just pick one. Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause they all have the keys in cause of the security checkpoints at the end.

7:46And there was a bright, like neon blue van. I was tempted to get that one, but I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, if you're renting a car for vacation, like I might as well do something flashy, like do something you never drive or never buy, you know, like there's this one time we rented a car for like a client meeting and what was it? Was it a, was it a Mustang? Was it? Yeah. We rented a bunch of different stuff, but a Mustang once. But anyway, so that was kind of like the, you know, the start of the trip. And then the next day after everyone kind of like got some rest and like, you know,

8:20unpacked or whatever, we made it down to San Diego.

Arriving in San Diego

8:25Had you been there before? Yeah. You had Salk Institute. I have been to the Salk Institute for like, with you, like 15 years ago for like, there was like what, we spent five hours in San Diego on the way back from a trip that we did also in like the desert. I didn't know what San Diego was going to be like, because I hadn't been there probably since that time, just about. I know that San Diego has beautiful weather. It's also known as, has been known as being a more conservative, conservative area compared

8:56to other places in California. And more specifically, the cities around San Diego are conservative, like very conservative. Um, but I hadn't been there in a while. And for some reason, I had this idea that San Diego was a much smaller feeling place. Yeah. That things were much more centralized and focused into a small, small geographic area. But, you know, we only, we were only there for a couple of days this time, but even during

9:27that time, it, it, it felt a lot bigger than I thought. Um, and I think when we left, we're like, yeah, we could have stayed in San Diego another day or, because I think if you look at the map from what I recall, it's, it's kind of like stretches along the coast more than let's say LA, which is more like it's attached to the coast, but it stretches more like Eastward San Diego in the opposite, I think stretches more like North to South along the coast. Oh, okay. San Diego does. Okay. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. And it's fair also to me that the city was maybe because of that reason was a lot more

9:59connected to the ocean front than LA does. And it also be because I have a bunch of freeway that just splits it, you know, from East to West and you don't really get that, that feeling so much, but. That's true. The four or five just cuts everything. Yeah. And San Diego was very interesting because you noticed that too, like it wasn't flat, like LA is really flat. It was pretty, yeah. But San Diego, like there was hills, like you go up and down, like, you know, like there, it's, it was actually a lot greener than I thought. Yeah. I thought because it was, you know, closer to Mexico that the weather was going to be

10:31really hot and therefore like much drier. Yeah. And it was really green, really, really lush everywhere, beautiful vegetation, you know, beautiful blue ocean. I mean, it was very kind of like a happy surprise to go there because I had no expect, I had honestly, besides the bakery list I made to visit in San Diego, I had no expectation of San Diego as being like, wow, a place I want to come back to. Right. And it kind of like surprised me in a way where I was like, huh, this is like not that

11:02far from where we live. And I know not much about this place and it seems pretty interesting. So. Yeah, I would go back. I mean, I think when we first arrived, we had some time to kill. So we, we stopped by the Salk Institute because your parents hadn't been there. We hadn't, I hadn't been there, you know, quite some time. They like taking photos. So it was kind of like a good photo, photo place. I was curious to see it again, but the timing was bad because, um, they were hosting some kind of large event that day preparing for it or something. Yeah.

11:32Yeah. So we were stopped and not let into the, uh, plaza, which was kind of unfortunate. So that was a dud. I feel like it's, it's hard when you travel because you like, don't want to plan everything out. I know. But then when you don't, sometimes you arrive, it takes, you know, 20 minutes to get somewhere and then you're like, oh, it's not even open. Well, and even if you were to plan, sometimes that information isn't even available online. So you don't know until you're there. Yeah, that's true. And then I think it was the same day afterwards, we again, just had time to kill before checking into the Airbnb.

Museum of Contemporary Art remodel

12:02So we went over to the, what's the name of the museum? I think it's like the contemporary, uh, museum, contemporary art, museum of contemporary art. I don't remember if I remember seeing the name. Yeah, I think it's the museum of contemporary art in San Diego. It's the one that was designed by, uh, Venturi Scott Brown, um, back in the day. And then there was some hoopla, I don't know, three, five, whatever years ago, because Seldorf architect, Seldorf architecture, uh, what's your first name? Annabelle, um, they got the commission to do a remodel, uh, let's call it of that museum.

12:39And in their proposal, which might've been part of the brief, we don't know. They basically undid almost all of the stuff that Venturi Scott Brown had done on the outside in particular. And then I think there was an addition involved within that project and an expansion of sorts. So I had not seen the museum of contemporary art when it was executed by VSBA and, you know, not touched by Seldorf, um, seen photographs of it. Of course, um, I would have liked to have seen that to be able to compare before and after.

13:11And again, with the before and after a project like this, you don't know what was in the brief and what was in the, you know, dictated by, by the client, let's say, putting that aside, unfortunately, the thing that was built in the end, extremely generic and lackluster had like zero character and identity at all. Like the most banal quote, modern thing, like just nothing. And Seldorf by and large, they do, they do some interesting work, but this one, I, you

13:42know, I'm sure they solved the problem programmatically. I'm sure that I would hope, and I'm sure that they could museum functions better now, you know, for like internally and like whatever, but just purely from the outside, which is what we experienced, like it was just nothing. Um, and I was kind of like, this is dumb. Like there's no, well, why bother, why bother having an exterior like this? It was just, it was nothing. It was nothing at all. And I just didn't understand it. And I think when you overlay, you know, it's a museum for contemporary art. Also, when you overlay the, the architectural history of it being done by, you know, the,

14:16some of the most iconic, one of the most iconic duos in contemporary architecture, it feels weird. Like it's unnecessary to undo that. Or if you're going to undo it, do something that at least has as much character or as much attempt to do something. There's like zero attempt to do anything. It was just glass, some, you know, panel things and some steel things to, like just nothing, like nothing at all. And people might not have liked what was there before, but at least it was trying to do something. Yeah. And actually that came up in the conversation we had with Dennis Scott Brown.

14:49Oh yeah. She was pissed. In the interview, if anyone wants to go back to that recording, but yeah, I was confused when we got there because I didn't know what the building looked like before the, you know, the remodel, let's say. So we get there and I'm like, okay. Like, you're like, oh yeah, we should go see it before it's, you know, it gets demolished. Yeah. I didn't know. We didn't know. So we get there and I'm looking at this thing. I'm like, okay, well, I don't know if that was worth the detour and then come to find out, you know, after looking it up that, you know, that's the remodel.

15:21And I felt the same way. I'm like, so what was the point of doing that? Like, if you're going to, like you said, if you're going to take, take something down and redo it, uh, I think the intent is to do it better or, or more in line with the time you're doing it at. And, uh, it was not good. It was not good at all. So I feel like it's, it's appropriate for a building like that, meaning a contemporary art museum to, to have the architecture make some kind of statement and take a position.

15:52You know, it's also like we talk about often, there's a difference between the general architecture that makes up a city versus like more iconic, you know, architecture. And it's true. Not every building has to be something that's making a statement or has to stand out. But given the use of the structure, I think it's appropriate and also giving it, given its location. So in San Diego or rather in where it is, it's actually at the, you know, obviously it, it, it, it fronts a street actually. So there's no parking lot in front of it. Um, there's just a, the building sidewalk and then a really, really wide street because

16:26that street is a weird intersection of like one, two, three, like four, four streets meeting, but not in a cross, not a typical intersection. So that, so, um, the building is on, on behind, at the back of the building, uh, is views to the ocean. So it's right on, basically right on the coast, um, elevated. I think you really end up looking over a beach in fact, and then there's the building and then the front of the building is the sidewalk and then the street with like other kind of roads hitting it. So the point is, is that this is a more unique site. It's not like a site that's just locked between buildings or some generic, you know, property

17:00that's a rectangle. It is unique because of its, you know, ocean facing this, but more importantly, what we saw the street facing, you see it from the street from like four or five different angles because of all the roads hitting it. So I feel like there was plenty of reason, plenty of reason for it to be just something. I don't know. It's also amazing to me in general, how often iconic architecture is demolished. And then what gets put back is fucking nothing like Penn station in New York, like the old

17:34Penn station was if you saw pictures of it, right, was remarkable, not a modern or contemporary structure, um, but like just gorgeous, beautiful, thoughtful. And the current Penn station is shit. Right. And then they're going to redo it. I think it was an SOM that someone's redoing it, but, and that has happened many times throughout history, you know, whether the, the building being demolished is, is more modern, modern, avant-garde, deconstructivist or, or historical or traditional or whatever

18:04words, um, it happens. And it's such a, it's such a downside. It's more like a political move than an actual, I'm trying to do something better type of decision, you know, in this case is, or in, and, you know, with the, the people who are really in charge, which is, let's say the client developer, whoever, like, it's just fucking ignorance, you know, like how, how, how many great buildings don't get built because of just the way things go. And so, you know, it's, it's like, it's a, it's a miracle when a really good building gets built and the idea that you would like demolish it for something worse.

18:36It's just like, why, you know, so that was, um, um, hugely disappointing.

Staying in a craftsman Airbnb

18:44And then, um, just sticking to the store, I think we checked into the Airbnb, Airbnb afterwards, which was a, a kind of craftsman style interior thing, which was fascinating to experience. Well, you know, I was looking for a rental for a couple of nights, so I was like, oh, he could be at a hotel, but I feel like hotel sometimes doesn't feel, it's not in a weird way, not as comfortable as like just being in a place that feels like it's a home. Yeah. And the downside with an hotel too, when you're, you know, like let's say you have my parents

19:15visiting and us, is that, well, you have to have two rooms. Yeah. So at some point you split, you don't see each other, like it's kind of everybody. That's a different thing, but we had just only a handful of days together. So I was like, well, let's take a look for an Airbnb. Yeah. And actually, uh, uh, two days, if I, two days, uh, uh, of Airbnb in, uh, San Diego was I think not much cheaper than like four nights or five nights in Big Bear. So I was like, oh, okay.

19:47Um, but then out of, you know, like all of the rentals, I saw that one. I was like, huh, you know, it wouldn't be a place where I would live. I feel like I wouldn't, I don't think I would be interested in living in a craftsman house, but I've never stayed in one. So it would be interesting to experience it. What do you think of it?

20:05There is something with, there is some craftsman homes that are like, you know, very pretty. Uh, I would have to say the exterior of this one, you could tell it was for Airbnb. They didn't care. They didn't put much love into making it look good. The interesting thing with those types of homes is I feel like they feel very chubby. Chubby. Yeah, sure. Right. They feel kind of like short and stocky. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, am I supposed to be Mr. Mrs. Bibendum living in this? What? Like the Michelin man, you know, like living in this house.

20:36Okay. Am I supposed to be two feet wider and like one foot shorter to, you know, be fit to live in those houses? But you're talking about the spaces or you're talking about the forms? You're talking about the shapes. The, the, the, the feeling of the house from the outside and the inside. It feels like it, those homes are short and wide, right? In their proportions. They're short. Yeah. And it makes me feel like I need to also be short and wide. But that's counterintuitive. But, but you're, but, but I want to clarify that the interior spaces are tight. So you wouldn't make sense if you were the Michelin man.

21:08You need to be like Frank Lloyd Wright size.

21:11You need to be small. Frank Lloyd Wright was tall. Fuck off. He was short. Are you sure? A thousand percent. No, you're in history. I'm pretty sure he was tall. No, Marina. He was known to be short.

21:25I feel like on the pictures you always look tall. That's because he was a good publicist. Huh. I'll have to look that up. No, no. But, but my point, my point is, is that Craftsman style houses feel, um, the, the, the components are bulky, right? Because they are made. There's a lot of, um, kind of ornamentation. Yes. But also the more structural stuff as well. Like things are thick. It's not engineered lumber. Yeah. You feel the weight over your head kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And partly because like, it's not made with engineered lumber. It's made with just, I guess you would call it dimensional lumber. Right. It's made with trees.

21:56But yeah. I mean, yeah. So it's, it's not thin light stuff. So they can, so things feel bulky, but the spaces also are not. They're not very big. So I think like as a sculpture, it feels bulky, but the space is not sizable. It's not like, the space is not designed for a Michelin man. It's designed for a very small person. A short and wide person. Why do you say wide though? It's not a big floor plan. No, but the rooms, like the living rooms or whatever, it feels wide. It feels short and wide. I'm not saying it feels like really big. I'm just saying the proportion feels like, it feels like this.

22:29I know. But if you were the Michelin man, you couldn't even move around in that house. Well, I don't have, okay, Mr. Potato. I feel like I should be Mrs. Potato living in that house. And you don't walk a whole lot in that case. Sure. Well, I mean, you can't, there's no space. Okay, fine. Yeah, sure. When I think about like a contemporary house with a more open plan, like you can run. There's like space to run. Oh no, there's nowhere to run here. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. You just kind of like shuffle. It's more of a shuffling than it is actually like walking at two miles an hour or whatever. Um, but so what did you think about, you know, the experience of being there aside from feeling

23:04like you should be the Michelin man with what the fuck that means? Mrs. Potato. Um, it was interesting. So when I opened the door, I was like, yeah, this is definitely a house I would not like to live in. Why? Um, I love wood and I'm open to all wood stain colors, textures, like, you know, I'm very open-minded in terms of material, but I have to say like, I don't, I don't love traditional and dark interiors.

23:34Like I like traditional. What about modern and dark? I like modern and dark. I like traditional, I like modern, but traditional and dark to me just feels, uh, it feels like it's a house where I would feel depressed my whole life. It feels like, again, there's too much weight weighing on me and it's, it's too oppressive and too closed off and too like, like I'm boxed out. Yeah. Um, it's very confining. So I, I didn't, I, I, I didn't see myself ever living in a house like that.

24:07Um, so it was interesting and you know, like, like the, even the layout of the spaces, I mean, it's weird because we're architects. So anytime we enter somewhere, like we have to think about those things, but I'm like the front door opens right onto the sofa. I'm like, this is weird. Like, I don't know. Like you leave the door open and your neighbor sees you in your pajamas watching TV. I'm like, this is, this is strange. There's a bedroom in the front that, that, you know, is on the front porch. The bedroom door is next to the, uh, entry of the house. And I'm like, that's creepy.

24:38Well, it's probably would be typically used as an office. Okay, fine. But you know, it was a three bedroom house. Sure. I'm like, oh, I don't want to, uh, probably would have flipped the kitchen in that bedroom, you know? So the kitchen faces the front. That makes more sense to me. Um, so, you know, and then formal dining, which I felt, I mean, again, you know, those were built at a different time where people actually had meals together and whatever, but like the big formal dining was like oversized, you know, for the, for the house, I felt like, you know, and the living room was too small.

25:09Like, it's just, it's interesting because, you know, in, in today's age and what we're looking for when we live in a house feels very different from like when this house was built and what maybe people were looking for. Yeah. So let's talk about that. I think, um, on the trend of, of open plans, right? There's been a little bit of a swing, uh, back away from that, uh, as a result of COVID, right? And we've talked about that before, um, office spaces. That's a, that's a separate, separate subject, but we can, that's also the case.

25:39Open plans are actually very problematic, but, um, yeah, the biggest difference aside from the size of the spaces, um, in this craftsman style house versus a more contemporary, um, house is the amount of openness of each space to another. In this case, the threshold between the transition between the living room and dining room was two pocketing doors that we just kept open all the time. So it was actually fairly open from the, the living to the dining. And then from, so, so what happens is, I don't know, to describe it, you enter, you enter on

26:13the living room, which is kind of on your left, on the right hand side, as that bedroom you described, you go through the living room, which is a very small space. Then there's this pocket door opening to a dining space, right? And then to the right of the dining space is a single door. That's probably like two foot six wide. It's not very wide. Um, I think a swing door that leads to a kitchen. So the kitchen is completely contained and it's only opening to any other space is a side door to take out the trash and a single normal width swing door to the dining room. Then you go, you know, past the dining room, let's say really, really short hallway, not

26:47really a hallway. Then three doors are faced with dead on as a bathroom left, right to the bedrooms. And, you know, I agree that the feeling of being in the space is it's very like, it feels confining because everything's dark. The fenestration, the windows are, are small relative to, you know, what we do in particular. And, and there's, the rooms are small. So everything's like, just like tight. And it's weird because this type of house, you're really kind of like in one space or

27:17another space or that space. You don't really ever like just flow between stuff as part of the living experience. It's not about movement. I mean, if you imagine a family living in that house, it feels like everyone is very segregated from each other and everybody's doing very specific things at the same time. Like the mom is cooking in the kitchen by herself. Right. The kids are playing in the living room. The dad is working on the dining table, but like nobody's really interacting with each other. They're each kind of like in their own space. And I think of the, you know, the interesting question architecturally is trying to do something

27:49that has a house that has or offers a variety of, of, of openness and closeness. I think that's always a, a, a worthwhile, you know, investigation to, to take on because people in general, over time, depending on how they feel, they want to have different types of experiences. Well, and I see also, even if you can keep that example of a family, the family evolves over time, the kids become older and, you know, maybe there is more connection with

28:20the parents or whatever, like the lifestyle evolves within the house. So I think the house needs to be bringing some flexibility in how the interactions can happen and how the flow can happen.

Sponsor messages

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Craftsman house layout and lighting

29:52So the house I grew up in was a pretty good kind of balance, I'd say, between openness and closeness. It wasn't, the house doesn't have like one big great room on the extreme end, and it's not like what we just described here either. There's a lot more openness, you know, than what we just described. So it's somewhere between the two. And I think there is value to having, you know, some amount of feeling of separation or specificity to a space. Yeah, the craftsman style thing is not my vibe.

30:25My main thought was, I cannot imagine being inside here for an extended period of time. If I lived in that house, I woke up, I left the house at seven o'clock in the morning, came back at like 7 p.m., had dinner, went to bed. And I could probably, maybe, but I could never be in that house like, you know, hours for hours awake consistently. There's like no light. There's no fucking light in that house. Yeah, it was kind of daylight. Yeah, it was not enough light for me either. They had, you know, like those wood shutters, interior shutters, which I've always, I've always

30:56liked those because I do like real shutters. They feel of quality compared to like the shitty blinds you see in all these houses. I despise the, you know, like the Venetian blinds, like the cheap metal Home Depot stuff. Like, or like, actually I prefer those over the vertical ones, like the curtain one you retract. I absolutely hate those. And it might come from the fact that I think those were popular in France.

31:24I don't know, maybe in like the 80s or something, but they're mostly like office stuff. Yeah, it's a bit more. People, I think in France, never use these for their homes. So whenever I see them here, I'm like, oh, come on, like put some fabric. Like don't, why are you using little rigid spaghetti to like, you know, close your window? It's so weird. I don't mind them. If it's like, you know, well done, I don't mind it. They make me angry when I see them. There is actually some that are nicer also for offices, but they are, I think, more of a weave to kind of like see through rectangular flat, not like this weird curve thing that

31:59just keeps falling off the hooks. Those are nice. And they have like the metal chain, like, you know, they're a bit more retro. And I think those are, I could get by, but the other ones, oh, if I see that, if I open the door and I see that, I'm angry right away. Like, that's not good. Anyway, so they had the wood shutters, which, so they had those, you know, wood shutters, which I've always kind of liked.

32:24I have to say it's fine if you have like one or two windows that have them. If the whole room has them, it's kind of annoying because you have to go and adjust every single one of them. And sometimes they split them into like upper ones, lower ones. So it's like 15 things you have to tweak. You have to tweak them exactly the way you want the light to come in. And then if you don't want to use them, you, you actually need to swing them out and then they stick out. So I thought that was kind of annoying.

32:51I'm like, I think it's a good solution for like, you know, one or two windows, or maybe the sun's beaming into the room, into your face, if you're sitting on the sofa or whatever. And, you know, that's like a nice way, but like everywhere, too much. Weren't you saying though, in a previous recording that like the physical operability of stuff is a nice thing to do? Uh, it is, but when you repeat like 20 times in the same room, it's stupid. 20 times. 20 times. I mean, I get what you're saying. I think, um, when something requires too much effort to do, you just stop doing it.

33:24And then it defaults to whatever position. And in the case of shutters that you're describing, it defaults to being closed and only like partially opened using the, the, the rotating blinds, you know, portion. And then therefore it's perpetually dark, you know, in, in the house. I actually went through and would open this stuff up every time we came in. Oh, I did too. But you still don't get a lot of light because the openings are small. And I've said before, like, I just don't understand why there's houses with these tiny, tiny windows,

33:54especially if we're going to spend more and more time at home, because you're just living in a dark box all the time. The thing is, I think if you trace the, the, the history of architecture, windows started off as being non-existent, I think. Like, and then small windows, it was just small openings, in fact, type of windows and then small windows. And then as window technology has evolved and as engineering has evolved in, you know, the spans of windows evolved, it's allowed us to do larger and larger openings combined with

34:25mechanical systems, right? Cost is made the main reason why we don't see bigger windows, but I think part of, of it too, is just the, the way the history of architecture has gone. So craftsman style houses and XL houses, when you go back in time, there's not a lot of light in those houses because of the technology at the time was just that way. Now it is, it's expensive, but it's much more common to have a lot more glass in a house than before. And I think also that's another small reason why I feel itchy about doing old styles because

34:58I'm like, well, why would you shape the amount of light you have in your house? Based on a technology that is from the past, based on a tech, based on a window technology that was from the past. Like we don't have to do that anymore. So why are we still doing that? Because who the fuck wants to live? Any client we speak with, and I think almost if you did a poll of any human being, like the vast majority would be like daylight. Daylight is really important to me, right?

35:28I want, aside from program, like I want natural daylight. It's nice, right? I don't think anyone's going to be like, no, I don't want natural daylight being dark. Like that's not very common for anyone to say. And I think that's also where, anyway, mixing of styles plus a lot of glazing is an interesting thing to do. But yeah, it's the daylight for me in that house. I couldn't deal with it. You know, fucking put some skylights in. Skylights are an underrated, I don't know why skylights don't happen more often either. I mean, they're just a great way to bring in a lot or just a little bit of light. So it's not like a dark cave experience all the time.

36:01Great. I actually looked it up. Franklin Wright was between 5'7 and 5'8 and a half. Yeah, he's not tall. It's not short. Marina, that is not tall. It's our height. No, it's on the shorter side than the taller side for sure. I mean, it's not like a midget. I didn't say he was a bidget. Well, I was just saying. So anyway, so that was, you know, that was interesting. I think it was kind of, again, it was kind of cool to stay in a place that's different from what we would typically be drawn to, you know, for a few days. Yeah.

36:32And it was, I liked it because the subject of styles comes up so much when we talk to clients and people. And I have, I've always had my reservations about craftsman style houses from a livability perspective for myself. And I've seen plenty in person, but I don't, I've probably stayed in a few. I don't remember, but this is recent years, the first time I've experienced it at least. And, you know. And I was thinking about that. I was like, oh, maybe, you know, when we like book Airbnbs, we should like book things that are kind of like, not out of our comfort zone, but kind of like different just to try

37:03and, you know, like be in a different place as architects. Oh, the other thing I was going to mention is the floor in that house. Oh, the floor. Well, so again, when you have a young kid, noises matter, right? So anything that is squeaky or like needs like, you know, oil on the hinges or, or, or, or stuff like that. When they're sleeping. When they're sleeping. And it's like, but you know, but even if there is no kids around, like if you, if I have to

37:35get up at night to use the bathroom and you are like sleeping, well, I have to walk on my tippy toes and try and find the planks that don't squeak to make my way to the bathroom that's on the other side of the house. And then I close the door, the doors squeak. And then I walk on the bathroom and it squeaks. And then I turn on the faucet and like the whole wall is shaking. It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. So that also made me realize that, uh, I could not live in an old home or like a type five old home because, uh, I would just, it's just, I mean, maybe you just get used to it

38:09and like, you don't even pay attention after a while. And I mean, I used to, you know, I used to live like the house I grew up in the upstairs was all, you know, uh, uh, wood floors and wood framing. So there was some squeaky portions, but you kind of get used to it. But also it's annoying, isn't it? In the middle of the night, it's extremely loud. It's like, a machine gun's going off. But one night, so the front door kind of like creeped me out, I have to say.

38:41And there was like a weird neighbor across the street that interacted with us the day before. So one night I woke up and I was like, I don't know, I was just not, I feel safe living in apartment buildings. I don't really necessarily feel safe when I'm like in a single family home. Um, if I had a dog, maybe I feel different. I don't know. But anyway, and so I woke up, I woke up that one night cause I think I was too hot cause you know, they put AC in the house, but the AC isn't balanced. So one bedroom is freezing cold. The other one is like steaming hot and we were on the steaming hot one. And I hear sounds like cracking sounds like really loud.

39:14And I'm like, I'm thinking everybody's asleep but me. I'm like, what the fuck is this? So I'm starting to make up stories in my head. I'm like, what is that? And then, you know, after being awake for like an hour or something, I heard the same sound in repeat. And I realized it's when the air conditioning turns on, there is this beast in the crawl space or the closet or wherever it was. It just starts making that machine gun sound. And I'm like, what in the fuck? I think that the noise I would, you would get used to.

39:45I think I'd be okay with it. But it is an issue when you have a young kid because I guess anyone knows when they're asleep, it's the only time you have that's calmer and you do not want them to wake up because if they wake up, it could be like 15 minutes, half an hour, an hour before they go back down and things get just fucked up. So it is like, you're always kind of have this low level of anxiety that's floating around because you don't want them to be disturbed. The other day, you know, I was putting him down for a nap, driving around, it seems to

40:19be working and come back and he's asleep. As I'm pulling him out of the car, a car by me starts up and he wakes up because of that. I'm like, fuck, are you shitting me? You couldn't have stayed in your car or not like he was a BMW. You couldn't have like not revved your car. Just wait 15 seconds for me to like get further away because now I have to repeat this routine, which, you know, it takes half an hour and didn't even work that time. So, but anyway, yeah, so I don't know. I, it was fun to experience. I think next time it would be cool to, to try something else out.

40:53I do think that the cool thing about craftsman houses and, you know, other X style is there is, there is more ornamentation to the architecture, which has a big impact. I mean, if you imagine that same house, but the floors weren't quite as loud and, um, the interiors were like a lighter, not white, but like some kind of lighter thing. I think they would feel very, very different. I mean, it felt like someone was living in that house, you know, it felt like, um, a homey

41:25in a way, right? Um, but, uh, not my type of home. Yeah. Different, different, different, different.

Visiting the San Diego Zoo

41:32Yeah.

Visiting the San Diego Zoo

41:33The other thing of note with San Diego is we went to the zoo and I had been to the San Diego zoo, like when I was a kid and, um, non Californians listening, you know, San Diego zoo is known as being like one of the best zoos, probably the best zoo in California. And I would guess one of the best zoos in, I don't know, maybe, maybe the U S. Um, it's huge. It's more like a theme park in terms of its scale and its design and the, you know, the greenery throughout the park, like the maps, the whole, the whole, the rest of it.

42:05I can all feel, this is more like a theme park than it is like a small thing with like a cages of animals. Um, and of course the zoo is, is a big part of it is like conservation, uh, rescuing, rehabilitation, all that stuff is a big, big part of it. So it's not like, again, cages with animals shoved in there. You look at them for a few tickets, um, as if that's a thing. I don't know why I quoted something from like the fifties. Uh, so it's more like an amusement park. What did you think?

42:34So the zoo, I have a double opinion on this one. Um, on the animal opinion. Okay. I was a little disappointed. Get the fuck out of here. Because for the price of the tickets, which is $73 per adults. So that's about right. Which like, what in the hell? I mean, fine, you know, go get grains for the animals, but not cheap. Um, I would thought that I would have seen a lot more animals than I did.

43:07I could understand that. That being said, it was a hot day. I'm sure everybody, every animal in the park was like, Oh, I just want to lay down and rest and not move. I get it. Like, fine. But I was hoping that there would be a lot more of them in the park. And, you know, there was like, Oh, one panda, one lion, two giraffes. And I don't know, I was expecting like, you know, the Lion King event, you know, with like, like 15 giraffes running around. I mean, no, but you know, just a little bit more animal matter in the park.

43:41And maybe we went into like the, you know, the east wing of the park, maybe the other side had more stuff. I don't know. Maybe we just didn't look in the right spot. But I had a little let down because for me, I was very excited to see my kid see real animals he's been seeing in the books in real life. Right. So I was very much looking to see his face when he sees them. And we didn't get to see very many of them or, or see them look at us because they were like face down sleeping or like perched on a roof thing or, you know, so I was a little, I was a little disappointed on that front.

44:14So that's, you know, that's that I'm, I'm not, I'm not usually a big zoo person. Because of the fact that I would prefer to see animals in their natural habitat rather than like behind a fence because we chose to put them there. So, you know, the fact that they are like rescuing and rehabilitating animals and all that is great. There's still something that feels wrong about them all being in one place though. So that's, you know, that's that. On the, let's say, not urban design, but like on the park design.

44:45Yeah. Uh, it was fantastic. It was beautiful. Yeah. It was beautiful. And again, like the, the vegetation was incredible. Like I actually almost enjoy the vegetation visit more than the animal visit in that park to the point where I was like, this could also double as a botanical garden. I mean, it's not just a zoo. I mean, they had trees from like, I don't know when, but they were like huge and it's really incredible. Like hillside, you know, you felt like you were in the rainforest or something.

45:16It was really, really incredible. And even some of the structures, they had that bridge that was really, really up high. Pedestrian bridge. That was very impressive. And, you know, like those elevator towers that were like, I don't know how many stories tall. I don't know. It was, height is a weird thing to gauge. Like I would say 10 stories. Yeah. It was, it was tall. You know, we had lunch at a little restaurant that was kind of like perched up high, you know, just like in the trees. That was fantastic. So I very much enjoyed the park itself. I think it was, and it wasn't that crowded, you know, we went on a weekday too, which I'm

45:50sure helped, but the whole experience was really good. Yeah. We did, you know, the little bus tour tour at the end of the day, which was fun too. Like, so it was, you know, all in all, I think it was pretty successful. So just a few more animals would have been nice. But I think it's interesting from a, if you're tasked with designing a zoo or an amusement park or anything kind of like that, there are the main attractions, and this could be also said of a city, there are, you know, main, and it could be said of a house too.

46:20There are main attractions of this park, right? But there's a limited number of them. And as an attraction, it's a short experience for the most part, right? And maybe in the case of a zoo, we only have a handful of animals, you know, for the, especially for the larger ones, let's say there's only one of them. So my point is that when you think about the attractions, which are like the standout things, it's actually very, very focused, very like tight and on some ways, small thing

46:51that you experienced throughout the day. So I think it becomes a question of like, if you're designing this park, how do you have a full day experience that feels, that's enjoyable and feels like zoo or feels like Disneyland or feels like living because of a house feels like whatever, even though the main things that everyone thinks about are only like small points in the timeline of the day that you experience. And I think that's, that's the magic of San Diego zoo. That's also the magic of Disneyland is it's all the stuff between those attractions is

47:25done so well that you've like a continuous experience. Again, you feel like you're in this, this mindset, this zone, this world, even though the main things you think about the main things that are like on the cover of the flyers, the zebra, the, the rhino, the, the, the, whatever, or, you know, space mountain or Mickey mouse, you only see those like, like just discreet, you know, kind of moments. But I agree, like you could almost go to the park and, you know, not see all the animals you wanted to see. You'd still feel like you got a lot out of it because of the way it's designed.

47:57Um, I honestly think that they, they really should double the park as a botanical visit too, because they have such incredible landscape that, you know, like you could, you could come and just look at that. If you're not into animals, you could, you could. Um, we did see a, a wide variety of stuff for the, you know, for the most part. I mean, we saw a jaguar, no, no, we saw a cheetah, um, lion, jaguar also. Yeah. Elephant, giraffe. I think we saw a zebra. We saw a meerkat.

48:27We saw, I'm forgetting stuff now. We saw like a lot of things. We saw a tiger. We saw bears. Tiger. Yeah. That was, that was amazing. Um, panda, different types of bears, whatever type of bear we need to. Snakes, a bunch of birds. Birds, which I have to say, I don't really care for birds. Birds are tough. I'm like, okay, I'm not sure you have feathers of different colors. Fine. You still have a beak and two wings. Like, it's not very impressive. I don't know what this means exactly, but I feel like part of the reason why I don't care about small birds is that, I don't know why.

49:04I, I feel like I could take a baseball bat and just smack one of them and it would be the end of the bird. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know what that means exactly, but tweet, tweet, tweet, smack. Oh, poof. It's gone. Okay. Well, or whatever. It's like closer to an insect. Like I don't, I don't care about an insect really. I mean, I think unless it's like truly special in the color, the pattern or the sound or like, like if you're kind of an average looking bird, I probably won't look at you. I know. Maybe because my vision is not good. It's too, too small to like appreciate. I don't know. But yeah, birds are not, not so much the thing.

49:38No, but I mean, I get what you're saying with, you know, not seeing quite as many of each one as you, you would want, but it could be also, that's just the nature of, of, of it all. Yeah. And I think we heard someone say that some of the animals are more active toward the end of the day rather than the morning. Yeah. So, you know, I'd be also curious to, you know, come back at a later time and see if that's any different, but yeah, no, very, very good experience.

Plaza shops and Coronado dinner

50:01And then after the zoo, which we spend the majority of the day there, there's a little plaza right across from it, you know, five minutes walk, like a little artist plaza kind of thing, art, artisans. Yeah. Who make, you know, blown glass and paintings and jewelry and ceramics. You can, um, uh, yeah, I think it's, uh, sort of, uh, I forgot what it was called. Yeah. It's right adjacent. You just walk from the zoo to the place.

50:31Yeah. You know, like 500 feet or whatever. That was a cute little spot that also made you wonder like, where am I? You know? Well, what's, what's cool with that is, um, um, I don't think we're gonna post pictures but you can find it online, is it's, it's a plaza, like you said, and it's not a perfect square. It's kind of a weird shape. So the structures that face the plaza feel like they're sort of randomly placed in a sense. And then there's a few trees there and there's big, I guess you'd call them cobblestones, but never not. They're, they're huge.

51:01They're like maybe 18 by 18, two by two size pavers. Um, each one is painted a different, uh, a color and there's maybe, you know, their primary colors more or less. So there's like, I don't know, eight, six, eight color, whatever it is. And the entire walking surface is that way. And I've been to, to places where most recently in Denmark, where painting the street is a means of design. It's a design tool. You see, we saw it at, you know, the, uh, super park in Denmark.

51:33We saw it in, it was beat up, but I've seen it in other areas too. And like we said before in that recording, it's one of those design tactics that looks good in a diagram, looks good in an aerial photograph, looks good maybe on day one, but also sometimes not even. And it just, it falls flat, flat, it like, it just doesn't work. But this time it was super successful. And I think it's because of the fact that the colors were vibrant.

52:04They weren't worn down. Um, it was, it was really loud. Like each tile, each, uh, you know, I don't know, but stone was, was a different color. So it was very, very present. I feel like in other cases where you have big swaths of color, cause you're doing a master plan scale color, you know, composition, it's too big, you know, it just looks like a surface. You don't read the color. And in this case too, it wasn't, uh, perfectly flat, you know, it was rough and there's a slight undulation to the, to the, uh, the biography, which helped.

52:38So it was very, very successful. And I think it was so worked really well with the types of shops and activities that were surrounding that place. Right. It all felt like it was coming together to make this one place, one place. Well, like you said, like the more applied surface treatment thing that we usually see, it's too detached from what's happening around. Like it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really like merge. So, yeah. So that was a cool little, cool little break. I always wonder, you know, those little shops where people make these things, like how do they, how do you live off of that?

53:09We entered like a few of them and actually there was some good ones. It was like a little art gallery of, you know, multiple different artists putting stuff in. There is a ceramist shop that was, that had some really good pieces. There is like a, you know, blown glass shop that was very random. Like we went inside and it was, you know, it was really hot too. They had no AC. I'm like, how could you sit in here the whole day? You know, and it's September. It's not even July or August. Like, how do you survive? We've had a heat wave though. Yeah. And then you look at what they're selling and I'm like, this is very specific.

53:42Like, you know, like amateurish, I buy a souvenir maybe, but I, you know, I don't know if I'll buy anything here. This is very, very specific people you're trying to attract. Like. Okay. But what does that mean? You're saying it's ugly? Oh, well, you know, a little bit. Okay. A little bit. And then, you know, not necessarily cheap either. So I'm like, who buys that stuff? And how much of that do you sell a week? You know, like, so interesting. But that was a nice way to, you know, kind of end that day. As soon as we ended that day, I was like, I'm going to go back.

54:17I want to go back to the zoo. I think I'm obsessed with. Yeah. Well, you're obsessed with theme parks. Yeah. No wonder. I mean, you grew up right next to one. So. I just think they're, they're just great alternatives. And then I think that's the night we had dinner on. The water. Yeah, it is. What was that island called? I don't know. I don't know. But we had a dinner on, on the, on the water. What was that island called? Little Island. Coronado. I think so. Coronado Island. I think so. Yeah. We took a bridge. You know, man, they build those bridges.

54:49I'm like, why do you have to make them go so up high? Two lane bridge. To go across the water. Hundreds of feet in the air, probably. Because there's big boats going under. I'm like, well, why don't the big boats just go somewhere else? Yeah. Just build it flat. No. It's like, every time we get on those things, I'm like, oh, please, no earthquake. Please, no earthquake. Dinner was amazing. But very, very cute little island. We only spent, you know, time for dinner there, which I wish we had had more time to kind of walk around and see, but it was very cute.

55:19Food was really good. Service was really nice. Wait, are you thinking of the one that we had, the ocean view or the French food? French one. Oh, okay. I'm going to confuse. That was also really good food. Yeah. That was good food. That was nice. Yeah, it was just a nice, simple dinner. They had good food in San Diego. And then we hit like a little bakery, just one out of my menu because I couldn't eat anything from the bakery. The day we left. And man, I think they opened at eight and we got there at like eight, ten or whatever. There was already a line. It was already packed. What was the ethnicity or whatever of the baker?

55:51It was Filipino. Filipino. Yeah. But it wasn't like, was it Filipino inspired, the food in any way? It didn't seem like it. It seemed like just a classic.

56:01I mean, it was Filipino, but very strongly French influence in some ways. I don't know. Really good stuff. But it was really good. It was really good. I definitely go back to hit the other bakery half on the list. But the food there was pretty good. I would love to go back to San Diego and see more of it. Yeah, I think we'd do the trips. See more of it.

Wrap up and upcoming topics

56:21So then we go on to Topanga. Topanga, we're going to have to talk about it on the next recording. I didn't think that us rambling about San Diego was going to last for like, you know, almost an hour. I thought we were going to pack it in there. But architecture, you know, can almost extract architecture out of anything.

56:41But yeah, let's talk about Topanga because it's a fascinating place that I learned a lot about. And I want to talk about it. So stay tuned for that. Okay. Give us an outro. Thanks, everyone, for listening to the show. If you like what we do, please subscribe. You can find us on all the podcast platforms. We also have the website, secondstudiopod.com, the hotline, 213-222-6950. And, of course, we're also on Instagram and YouTube.

57:06Yeah. And there is more to come. So please stay tuned. Yep. Talk soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.