#522 - Harper Halprin, Principal & Co-Founder of AAHA Studio

Introducing Harper Halperin

0:00This is the second studio hosted by the architecture and design office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bore-Daronnet. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. And today, our guest is Harper Halperin. Harper is the founder and architect of AAHS Studio, an office based in Los Angeles. Yep. They do architecture and interior design, commercial and residential work. And as you guys know, with Harper, we talk about where she's from, how she got into architecture, how she started her own practice with her now husband, how the two of them worked with each other, the projects they do, their design thinking, all that kind of fun stuff.

0:38And actually, as you'll hear, it's kind of funny because there, a lot of her journey has been somewhat parallel to mine and on our own, as you'll hear. So it was quite interesting to get her take from what she's learned from those experiences, and whether or not they align or misalign with my own thinking. Sparly, I think I agree with a lot of what she said. I felt like at times it was just you talking, but in the voice of Harper.

1:08It was very interesting. They do excellent work. This was a very interesting conversation, very insightful, and I think you guys are going to enjoy it.

Sponsors and intro

1:16Sponsors.

Sponsors and intro

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2:20Experience the difference with Programma, software built for interior design workflows. This is the Second Studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Harper. Here we go.

Growing up in Los Angeles and Orange County

2:27I'm originally from Los Angeles. I grew up here, and I am a second-generation Angeleno, or I guess kind of third. Um, my dad is from Los Angeles, and so, um, he grew up in the area that then I ended up growing up in as well, and we, uh, we lived there actually until I was in late elementary school.

2:58And I feel like being a city kid, you know, it does shape you, uh, and it really changes how you see the world, and I don't know, some people may argue that L.A. is not really a city in the true sun, but, um, you know, at least it is a version of that typology, right? So, um, I think that was formative, just, you know, the way that I experienced space, but then I think the biggest thing was that when I was in late elementary school, my parents ended up actually moving down to Orange County, and at the time, this was in, you know, the 90s, and the world between Los Angeles and Orange County was like Mars and Jupiter.

3:48You know, it was just like totally, totally different, whereas now it's very normative, it's all kind of similar in certain ways. At the time when I moved there, it was to Irvine in particular, and it was like we were going to just a totally different area, cows, uh, orange groves, rolling hills, like, you know, the quintessential plans development and track home mania. And that, you know, I, you know, I remember just being like, I feel like I'm moving to a different world.

4:26And when we got there, you know, I wasn't so old at the time, but I think that it was really interesting, actually, to watch that area of Orange County really start densifying in a certain way, and also just growing in terms of the residential market. And the, um, they kind of started pulling away from the track mentality and really get into the custom market in the area that I lived in.

5:01And I think that that did have a really big, um, impact on my interest in residential architecture in particular and watching, um, the development, actually Shady Canyon was right behind where I grew up. And that was a development where, you know, the people that moved in there were, um, having custom homes. They were, you know, sports stars, athletes, et cetera. And so that was really when I became super interested in residential architecture.

5:36Where in LA did you grow up for the ages from whatever to elementary school? I grew up in Beverly Hills, actually. Um, so yeah, uh, South Beverly area. Uh, um, kind of Pico Roxbury location. And how did you guys end up in, you might've said, I just glossed over. How did you end up in, in, in Irvine? Was it for your parents' work? Yeah. So my dad, um, he is an attorney or was an attorney and he was tasked to open a branch of the law firm that he was working at at the time.

6:10Got it. And so, uh, he, this was, you know, mid nineties and right after the Northridge quake and, uh, the, you know, riots and just kind of the craziness of Los Angeles at the time. And my mom actually is from New Mexico and she was like, this is too much for me. I'm done. And my dad was like, well, I got this opportunity. Let's do it. And so we ended up there as a result of kind of a conglomeration of different things.

6:46I'm trying to recall now. So I, I grew up in the city of orange, uh, which is, you know, adjacent to Irvine and I'm trying to remember, and I think we're, we're all, you know, kind of similar in age. Irvine was, it existed at that time, but it definitely hit a growth spurt at around the time that you're, you're talking about. Um, and now it's, it's a lot different actually from, you know, back in the nineties. Totally. So where my parents are from or where I grew up, I should say in Irvine is the kind of knuckle between UCI and Newport beach.

7:19And so that adjacency, um, was right for development. Obviously, Newport beach has a lot of high net worth individuals. And then Irvine, they were pouring money into the campus and really developing that as well. UCI. Um, and so between those two components, I was surrounded by development and it really did go from like, we would hear cows in the hills adjacent to my house. To, there were all these new custom homes being put up.

7:53Um, and then also with UCI, there were of course, also a bunch of new commercial spaces being put in and just the growth of that area at the time was pretty substantial. So. A lot of, um, a lot of Boba shops. Yes. Yes. A lot of, yes. So I had many, uh, many dates to, um, the, you see, it's like the village basically it's there. Um, and there are a lot of Boba shops and all sorts of fun, uh, you know, there's a ton of Chinese, um, culture there.

8:31And so that was kind of also ingrained into this concept, right. Of just like you were living in Irvine, but you had so much specific culture in one area. And it was very interesting. Yes. Yes. A very heavy Chinese population in Irvine. Hence the Boba shops. Yes. Yes. And the dessert places with the crazy shaved ice, whatever things. Exactly. Um, yeah.

Discovering architecture and portfolio school

9:01You know what you're talking about. Uh, so, um, when did you go straight from high school to studying architecture? Like, how did you decide to study architecture? That's a great question. So, you know, like I said, I was really interested in all the development that was happening around me. I think I always had kind of a proclivity for being both right and left brained and really having this, you know, juxtaposition of like, I like to problem solve. I like to be artistic and I like to think out of the box.

9:34And, um, it also, my mom, she dabbled in interior design, um, when I was really young. Uh, and so I think that I also have, you know, some of my first, uh, childhood memories are like being on installs with her and running around and, you know, they were doing furniture installation at the time. Um, and so that I think was also really interesting about the way I thought about residential design.

10:06Um, and, um, then fast forward a little bit in high school, you know, everyone's like, Oh, what do you want to do? And et cetera. And they make you take all these aptitude tests. And I think every aptitude test I ever took was like architect, architect, like be an architect. And I was like, well, that's really interesting because I've always had this, you know, uh, this interest in it. And even like in elementary school building models out of cereal boxes and like all this silly, silly things, but you know, it really is, uh, uh, interesting soiree into how your brain thinks.

10:48And so when I was a junior in high school, I took AP art history and that was incredibly interesting to me bringing in architecture and history is how those two dovetailed into the world of art. I was just completely enamored. I absolutely loved that class. And at the time I was, you know, trying to figure out what colleges to apply to and all of that kind of stuff.

11:20And my AP art history teacher was like, well, you can do both. You don't have to pick on one. And I was looking into colleges and I realized to apply for architecture, I needed a portfolio, but I hadn't taken any type of art in a very long time. And so I was like, okay, well, I want to apply. So I got to scramble to create a portfolio. And so I signed up for, um, portfolio development classes at the, um, Institute of Art in Laguna beach.

11:54And it's this kind of hole in the wall, just tiny place off the one 33 that you, before you get to Laguna from when you're getting off the four Oh five. And it was me as a high schooler. And then all of these older hippie, like people from Laguna and we learned like figurative drawing and, you know, um, still life and just like all sorts of different things. But it was so interesting to do and kind of have to fast track that portfolio process.

12:32I dove in, like, I just made it my goal to, uh, study and learn all these different types of arts. I got into photography. Um, I did, you know, some just general drafting and in the end of my junior year and the summer, uh, after it, I produced a portfolio. To apply to schools with. And so when I was applying to college, I applied for both art history and for architecture, depending on where I was applying.

13:03Interesting. How long was that program? The portfolio, uh, program. I want to say it was like eight weeks or something. It wasn't, you know, insanely long, but it was just a great experience. Yeah. That's amazing. Um, I had a similar experience. And I think a lot of, uh, now architects have maybe had this where, uh, when I decided to apply to schools, they asked for, some of them asked for portfolios and I didn't have one. And I didn't, I wish I had known about the, the program you mentioned, cause I submitted, it worked out obviously, but I submitted like drawings from when I was like eight years old.

13:38Like just the most random, like low, you know, like kids do like fake logos for fake brands and like cartoons. I submitted cartoons from when I was like nine and they were like these crappy things. It had nothing else. They're pretty good actually. I mean, I saw them. It's sort of worked, I guess. Um, uh, so, okay.

Studying at USC architecture school

13:58Awesome.

Studying at USC architecture school

13:59Um, so then you ended up going to USC, right? Yes. And is that straight from high school into USC? It was. So in this, you know, kind of study of where to go and what to do, I applied to so many different schools. Um, although I was always from Southern California, I really loved the idea of kind of exploring a new location. And so I applied to places all over the country. So New York, Florida, Texas. I mean, like literally if they had an interesting architecture program, I was like, okay, let's do this.

14:33Um, and then I ended up getting, you know, um, accepted to some of them. And then I realized like, oh, I do want to go, but I really like California. So, um, yeah. At the, you know, at the 11th hour, I was like, oh, let's not do this. I'm going to stay, uh, in the area. And so I was deciding between Cal Poly Slow and USC. And I remember, um, my dad went to UCLA. And so there was a lot of tension going on.

15:06He's like, how dare you? And exactly. And at the time, UCLA didn't have an undergrad in architecture. So I was like, I can't even go for that anyways. So give me a break. Um, and so we went and we did a school tour, of course, in both. And I remember going to USC and just the hubbub of all of the, you know, the marching bands and the football and just like the big university ideal. And I was enamored with it. And after that visit, I was just like, I remember sitting down with him at dinner and, you know, we went through all the pros and cons and the cost and this and that.

15:46And it was pretty illogical conversation. And at the end, I was like, this is not necessarily a logical decision. It's just something that I'm drawn to. And he's like, as long as you go in knowing the benefits and detriments, that's all you can do. Make, make the decision. And so I decided to go to USC straight from, um, under or from high school. And I never looked back and I was young at the time. I, um, was not even 18 when I went to college, but, uh, I just went straight through looking back.

16:18I kind of wish I had taken a beat, not because I didn't want to do architecture. I didn't want to go to USC, but I would have loved to do like a gap year of traveling or, you know, whatever it is. But I, I just was like, no, move forward as quickly as humanly possible.

16:35That's an interesting, uh, remark though, because I think those gap years, you know, obviously we speak to a lot of folks on this show and outside of the show. And it seems like the, the quote gap years between, you know, high school and undergrad, undergrad and grad or wherever else end up being some of those most important experiences for, for people. Um, I didn't have any kind of gap between, uh, high school and undergrad either, but. I took a year in between. Yeah, I think it's smart. I took a year in between for the same, kind of for the same reason as you did. I also needed to, uh, you know, build a portfolio to apply to school.

17:07And there is a kind of like they call the Bosa in France has like smaller regional, uh, schools. And they do have this program, which is one year kind of in between high school and college that really basically shapes you and prep you for, um, you know, like the, for college classes. So during that year you learn same thing, like photography, art history, sculpture, live drawing, and all that good stuff. And at the end you basically built a portfolio. So you have something pretty robust to show. And that year was phenomenal because you, you had no pressure, but really just kind of exploring and learning.

17:43And then you know that you're going to come out with more knowledge than what you started with, you know, I mean, hopefully. Right. And that's so important. I feel like, especially, you know, I don't know what your guys' experience of architecture school is, but it is intense to say the least. And it's purposely so, right? And I, I don't say that with, um, you know, a mocking tone. I think it's really good that it's intense because it does make you, um, change the way you think and adapt and problem solve to just an incredible degree.

18:20But I think that as a result, you lose sight of all the other components of academia that are hugely beneficial and everything becomes about architecture. And when you back up, you realize that architecture is actually so well informed by so many other disciplines that if we took the time to have that year or more to travel, to, you know, do art, to just develop who you are as a person.

18:53And then kind of back up and think about just outside influences that would just make architecture school that much more robust. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, it's a larger question that I find myself asking, uh, fairly consistently, even, even now, you know, all of us have been practicing for some time that through that, that balancing between, um, kind of sitting at your desk and either learning design or producing design, but also going out and experiencing things.

19:24And I feel like that challenge continues into, into, you know, when you're older and you're practicing because architecture takes an immense amount of time, but you have to find breathing space to go out and see stuff and explore things. And it's, it's just, I feel like sometimes it's a tension between the two and being aware of it, I think is, is one step. And then trying to figure out like what's the right balance for oneself is a, is another. And I think you almost get jaded as you age and get more enthralled in this profession that you, you, it's harder to step away and shed all of that preconceived notion of what you've learned over the last 20 years.

20:07Right. I think that when you're young and you get all that outside stimuli, it is, it's easier to kind of bring it in at this point. I think even when you go and you are able to step away from the computer and go travel and do all of these things, especially for us with, you know, young kids and everything else that's going on, you're, you're tired. You're, you know, I don't know.

20:37You're just like, it doesn't sink in in the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Did you pack the baby food? Exactly. Yeah. Um, so when you get to USC, you had a, you had a great time there. Um, one of my favorite questions to ask folks also is, was there anything about the architectural education that you found to be surprising? Were there things that you loved, you loved a lot and the things you didn't quite care for?

21:08I knew nothing about architecture. I will say that, like, I, you know, I knew what an aptitude test told me, like, oh, you are right brain and left brain thinking you like art, you like problem solving, like, great, you'll be a great architect. But I had not really ever interacted with architects before. I don't think I really knew anything about the profession. I think part of my decision to go into architecture was what I already said.

21:41But another part of it was, I remember from a very young age, my dad always said, um, be a professional, because it gives you so many opportunities. And even if you don't end up practicing what you became a professional in, or what you were trained to do, that's okay, because it allows you the type of brain space and background to kind of do many other things, right? The world becomes your oyster in a sense.

22:13And so, you know, some people would say that's like, oh, your parents pressuring you into doing something you don't want to do. But in my case, it was not about that. And it wasn't like he was like, oh, you have to be a doctor, you have to be a lawyer, you have to be this. He just said, be a professional, have something to, you know, go back to. And so when I was deciding what to do, architecture is a profession, right? Definitely so. But it isn't a profession in terms of it's so prescriptive.

22:45And that was really, um, it allowed me to go into it, eyes wide open, but at the same time, like not understanding anything of what I would be doing. Um, so when I got into school at USC and your first day, they sit you down with your class. And I think, I don't remember how many people we had, maybe like 115, 120 people in the class. And they say, okay, look to the person on your left, look to the person on your right.

23:17Neither of you will be sitting here at the end of it. You know, like, we'll leave you all out and make you miserable. Um, and I think that, you know, it's a little bit of a scare tactic, but at the same time, they want you to realize that like, you need to shed the preconceived notion. Because I think a lot of people who go into architecture, at least in this original level are probably high functioning individuals. They're used to being good at what they do, getting high marks, you know, whatever the reason is.

23:52But when you go into this, you can't go in expecting to be good at it automatically. Because it's very different than the traditional Western education that we had taken in elementary, middle school, high school, where you learn something, you memorize it, you regurgitate it, right? Architecture school is not at all like that. And so I had gotten really good at that system. And especially, I think, because I was a little younger, I, when I started architecture school, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm, this is like so outside my comfort zone.

24:31I'm not just learning, internalizing, regurgitating. It is nothing similar to that. And I, it took me a long time to realize that the process is the end result versus the end result is the end result. And I had some amazing professors, my first semester and year, I would say, year or two years, where they kind of had to beat that out of me, right?

25:03That perfectionism, that end results mentality. And they made me realize that the process was what I was trying to get to, not to the final answer. I love that. I love that. That makes a lot of sense. I had the, so I went to Cal Poly slow. But the... I would have been your classmate. Yeah, I also almost went to USC. So it's funny, because I had a similar conversation, you know, with my folks about what schools, and real quick, so I actually did a USC summer camp when I was a junior in high school.

25:42That's how I ended up deciding, you know, for architecture. Aaron did that. Oh, really? Yeah. I wonder... I wonder if you guys did it at the same time. It's possible. It was a while ago, so my memory is hazy, but I do remember, you know, I fell in love with it from that. But anyway, so I was at Slow, and it was the first day, like, day of welcoming or whatever, and I think it was the dean giving the speech also to, like, the body of 200 students. Because for people listening, Cal Poly and USC are similar in size in terms of number of students.

26:14He said the same exact thing. Look left, look right. Those two people, they're not going to be with you, like, statistically. It's what every architecture school says on day one. Well, if you're, like, MIT of 20 people, you can't really afford to do that. Yeah. Just look on your left if you're at MIT. It's only half, not half. Yeah, exactly. But it ends up working out about that way by the time you get to fifth year. And, yeah, it is kind of a... It's kind of like the Hunger Games, you know, every year you're like...

26:47It does prepare you. You know, it's like day one, and it's like, who's going to be here, who's not here anymore, you know? And it is a survival of this, it is. Who can, like, sit in the studio long enough to say that they've pulled X number of all-nighters, they've slept on this many rolling chairs, they haven't eaten in this long? Like, it is very much a Hunger Games version thereof. Yeah, and I think, I mean, I like your observation, too, that, you know, the comparison of Western education from, you know, the ages of, what, five or six through 17 or 18 is, like, very different from architecture school.

27:27I think that's dead on. And any aspiring architects about to get into school, that's a clip that what you just said is exactly it. And it's like, the sooner you can understand that, the better, but I remember, kind of to your point, the first few years are, in some ways, the most painful, because you're trying to unlearn and relearn or learn that new way of doing things. You know, now it's like, now it's normal, but, yeah, at the beginning, it's a weird, it's like a completely different thing compared to everything before.

27:58And it's almost like, no matter what you, I mean, I suppose if you're the one out of 10,000, you know, future Frank Lloyd Wrights, it's one thing. But for the average student, it's like, no matter what you produce the first few years, it's not going to be good or good enough. You know what I mean? And it's a weird. You kind of have to get comfortable with that. And like you said, though. And it's not about what you produce. That's the thing. But you think of it. It's about how you got there. A hundred percent. And I think you pair that with, you know, what you said, too.

28:30A lot of the students who get into these schools, they're high-performing students from high school. So, like, they're probably used to getting, they're in the AP classes. They're used to getting 4.0s or As and this and that. And then suddenly you have, you pin up something you spent like a week on and you get torn to shreds. It's like, wait, what happened? But I'm a good student. How could this be happening to me? Your first crit, you're like, oh, my God. That was horrible.

28:59And then you sort of get used to it, I guess. So, USC, you make it all the way through. What happens after USC? I think the thing that I have to add is that my class at SC was pretty amazing. We had some amazingly talented and very interesting people. And I think that that was very formative in the type of professionals we all became.

29:35There are many people from my class in particular that ended up trying to and did successfully start their own practices. And so that just being in a classroom setting and a studio setting with that group of humans, I am so thankful for. So, and obviously part of that, a huge part of that was I went through school with Aaron from the very beginning.

30:05Okay. And so we were kind of a team without being a team from, you know, our first day of architecture. And now fast forward 20 plus years later, again, in a studio and in marriage and in all the other things. But just with the people that we went to school with, I think that you learn so much from each other. And then fast forward, once we all graduated and we kind of dispersed, we kept up with a lot of our classmates.

Moving to New York during the recession

30:41And Aaron and I actually moved to New York directly after graduation, which was, as I said, you know, before I started, I had always wanted to leave L.A. I had had had the opportunity to travel a lot in my youth and I was very interested in traveling. While we were at SC, we did a summer abroad or excuse me, a semester abroad. We went and we studied in Como, Italy.

31:12And then subsequently we lived in London for a summer as well. And so just having all those travel experiences and different cultures, when we were done with school, I was like, Aaron, you know, we can stay here, but I would really love to kind of go elsewhere. And at the time, we weren't able to get any type of visa for the UK. They were not giving out anything. It was also at the very start of the crash.

31:45So it was 2008 and jobs were very scarce, to say the least. Yeah. And so we ended up just saying, well, we're going to see what we can get. And we moved to New York with a suitcase and slept on the floor of one of our. So you moved to the epicenter of the crash. Yes, exactly. We moved to the epicenter of the crash and we were like, let's do this. And we were very lucky.

32:15We both got jobs later that summer, I think, in maybe August. And we, you know, going to USC, similar to Cal Poly, the program is very, you know, focused on urbanism and capital A architecture and high concept and all these things. And all the all my influence of like a residential architect that I had gone into school with when I graduated, that was not what I had an interest in.

32:50Right. I was like, oh, I want to. My thesis was in public space and the flignure and, you know, people walking through urbanism. And here I was graduating into a great recession. And I was like, I don't want to do our, you know, interior architecture. And we went to New York. And at that point, we were just like, get whatever job you can get. So, yeah, we both ended up at the same studio.

33:20Surprisingly, we started working for a studio called Studio Sofields. Bill Sofields was the head and Emma O'Neill ran it side by side with him, as well as a bunch of just A-list people who also have since gone and started their own practices. And this type of architecture and design was totally out of our comfort zone of our USC education. Also, going to New York, you know, in California, USC is a name brand, right?

33:54Like, everyone's like, oh, you went to USC architecture. Amazing. You know, this is awesome. You go to New York and they're like, where did you go to school? And we're like, USC. They're like, University of South Carolina? Like, cool. Yeah. We're like, no, no. Trojans? I don't know. Major football team at the very least? No? No. They're like, no. They're like, you didn't go to Syracuse. You didn't go to, you know, any of those programs. Not important.

34:26So I think that that was a bit of a reality check, right? Just leaving your bubble of fun in California, going into a big city, even though LA is the city, right? We already talked about that. Being in our early 20s, dumb, stupid, and ready to have fun. And then learning a whole new practice of what architecture is and can be. Bill Sofield is an architect by training, but not by practice, meaning that when they do projects, they always have architects of record.

35:03They're never doing the architectural documentation, but they are always doing very intense design at a very high level, a lot of customization. He is also very much a history buff in architectural integrity. So you really get into a lot of just historical detailing and understanding, you know, what came before and how it informs design that they're producing and things like that.

35:39And so, you know, coming out of USC and immediately getting thrown into doing millwork packages, like, how does this translate? It's just so different. And I thought it a little bit. I kind of was like, this is not, you know, this is not what we were educated to do. This is just a job for a job's sake. And very quickly, I realized, like, oh, no, this is so interesting.

36:14It's so amazing. That scale that I was so enamored with at the urban umbrella and then hyper fixation on the tactile umbrella. I was like, oh, yeah, this is I can, you know, sink my teeth into this. And while I was there, I got to do, I mean, amazing opportunities. We did the Tom Ford rollout. And so that was my first soiree into retail design and detailing. We did custom lighting, custom furnishing with, like, Baker and McGuire.

36:51We, excuse me, got into even, like, custom plumbing fixtures with Calista. We, you know, just, like, so different. Such an interesting experience. And I was there for a short time. They ended up putting all the Tom Ford projects on hold again. This was 2009 at the time. And no one was doing anything. And so I ended up pivoting and getting a job at another studio called, at the time, it was S. Russell Groves.

37:26And then it became Groves & Co. And now they actually don't really exist anymore. They've morphed into a different studio. But that was also an amazing experience where I got to do a retail rollout for Tiffany & Company.

37:42And looking back, you know, I'm, like, in my early 20s, just graduated from college. And the thing about this time, and I'm sure you guys have a similar experience, is there was no one working. So they threw everything at you. They were, like, you're a hot body. I can pay you nothing. Amazing. Here's everything. And you just had to dive in. And we learned so much. I mean, not to mention the, like, 100-hour work weeks we would do, right?

38:14It's just, you're just a slave to your computer. But that was incredibly formative. And it fast-tracked you as a professional because you were getting so much experience so quickly. And that was really, really great. So for how many years were the two of you in New York? We were there for almost five years. When we moved there, we had said, oh, a year or two. Nothing crazy. But, you know, time flies when you're having fun.

38:47And we were definitely having fun. Learning new things, meeting new people, new experiences. And, yeah, we had been there long enough that in the interim we got married while we were there. And we decided, like, okay, either rip off the Band-Aid and stay here. Because when you start practicing somewhere, you start speaking the language. You learn the vendors. You learn, you know, the detailing, the contractors.

39:20You have a whole network of people. And if you stay too long, then you're ingrained in it, right? And it's harder to pivot once you get farther into your career. And so we really had to make a decision of, did we want to just stay in New York and live there and continue to practice there? Or, you know, had we gotten our kicks and we were ready to go home? And we had always wanted a family. And so we decided, like, okay, I don't want to raise kids in the city of New York, especially on an architecture salary.

39:54Like, it wasn't going to happen. So would I rather live in the suburbs of New York or in L.A.? And we were like, well, that, you know, okay. So we ripped off the Band-Aid and we went back home five years into our New York timeline. And, yeah, I haven't looked back since.

Returning to California and getting licensed

40:14Did, when you came back to California, was that when you started your own practice? And with that question also, do you perceive a difference in general of how architects practice, think, you know, exist, whatever, in New York, you know, East Coast versus Los Angeles? Yeah, so at the time when we moved back, we moved back for personal reasons, right?

40:44We did not move back for professional reasons. And as a result, we loved practicing in New York. We had been indoctrinated in a good way, right? Not a bad way, but indoctrinated in the way of thinking there, the high level of artistry and craftsmanship that goes with people there. The level of millwork, custom furnishing, just everything is to a T and to a precision that at the time we didn't realize, but is not L.A. architecture and design.

41:24And so I think that for us, that was actually really hard in the transition period because we felt a little out of place here. We didn't speak the same type of language, even though our background is from here. We're literally born, bred, raised here. We're educated here. You forget as a budding architect that, yes, your education is in studio, but then really your prime education is directly after school.

41:56And what you do in those first few years can really shape and be immensely, it almost pigeonholes you a little bit into what you do later in your career. And so that's something that I always talk about people who are looking to get into architecture. They say like, oh, you know, what do you suggest I do? I said, well, try a lot of things out if you don't know what you want to do right when you get out of school, because if you stay status quo with one thing, that will basically, you know, make you do that.

42:31Not make you, but you'll get stuck a little bit doing that moving forward. It's harder to pivot as you get more ingrained in later in your career. So, when we moved back, we kind of had to decide, like, what do we want to do? And our goal was always actually to become licensed architects. I think it went back to, you know, my dad's voice saying, be a professional, be a professional. But, like, when you graduate architect in the school, you're not actually a professional, and they don't really tell you that.

43:01So, when we moved back, I was like, okay, well, instead of just jumping in and getting a job, why don't we just knock out all of our exams? And so, I took, I think, six months. And I took all of my AREs. Holy shit. Oh, my God. And the CDP, and I just went for it. And so, at the end of that process, I ended up with a license and figuring out, like, okay, now what?

43:32What do we do? And in L.A. at the time, and I think this is changing a little bit, but at the time, it was very much, like, architecture and interiors. There was not that, like, kind of hybrid model. And I was not interested in doing just architecture or just interiors. I really loved the idea of doing both. And I ended up interviewing with a bunch of different studios and ended up at a studio.

44:05They were an interior design firm, but they were interested in doing architectural design, and they were looking for a licensed in-house architect. And so, I ended up working for them. And I was doing that for about a year. And it was really another great opportunity to kind of get my feet wet back into the Southern California mentality. It was also a good soiree in that they still did a lot of custom design.

44:41There was still a lot of that kind of thought process that I was used to in New York. But in L.A., the difference here is we don't have as many artisans as they have there. That also is changing a little bit. I don't want to, you know, paint the picture that L.A. is not at all artistic or, you know, has a background in that type of level of detail. But at the time, it was more about, you know, the labor, right?

45:18And that you're building a home with laborers versus artisans. And the way that you draw a package is very different as a result. Instead of everything being custom and you're drawing every detail to every, you know, radius curve that you want, you really have to think about what you're drawing, the audience that's receiving it, and why it's being drawn.

45:49And what the budget of the project is, where we never had those conversations in New York, right? You never talked about budget. It was not in the lexicon. Whereas here, we started talking about it. And it's like, it's the first conversation you have oftentimes. It's interesting for me because I have the same take, precisely. That's also why I asked the question, frankly, is I felt, because we lived in New York for a period of time. And I felt when I came back, again, to California, that the contrast and the difference between how architecture and design is done in New York versus L.A. was super different.

46:30And it was exactly like you said. It was a shock. And it was really difficult for me to get my head around and to some degree accept. I still don't accept it. I still reject some of it. And I've said this before, and I'm sure there's some California architects who have been here the entire time. We don't like hearing this. But I do think, on average, in general, the East Coast architects, they operate at a much higher level of precision and seriousness and all the stuff that you said exactly.

47:00And for us, when we came here and we opened up our own shop, I tried to apply that same method of working to every project because, why wouldn't I? And also, you do that so that the project turns out well and it's of excellence. But it's like overkill. And actually, not even beyond overkill. It doesn't work if the budget is a certain amount or you're paired with certain contractors and subs. They're like, what the hell are you asking?

47:34Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, dude, this is how we do it to make sure it's right. And also, I agree with the take about the separation between interiors and architecture was not even in the language on the East Coast. You know, out here, I remember I was talking to someone. I don't remember if it was a client or a professional, somebody, when it first came out in California. And they were like, wait, so you're an architect? I'm like, yes. They're like, do you do design? And I was like, legitimately confused.

48:05I like my brain didn't know what to do. And I was like, that makes my skin crawl. Of course. To this day. Like, I am an architect and I design. I think I need a tattoo that says that.

48:18And so, yeah, there is that stark contrast.

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Launching a solo practice with an infant

50:02Was that something, do you think you always knew you were going to have your own practice? Yeah, so it was always something that I wanted to do. And I don't know if you guys had this class, but at USC, we have a pro practice class. And in this class, it's the only like business class that we take as architects. Because why would you be educated in business as an architect? That makes no sense at all. So we did pro practice. And part of the task for one of our semesters was to create your own practice.

50:42And you had to name it and you had to do like, I don't know, some kind of pro forma, whatever it was. It was very basic. But I remember going through that process and being like, oh, this is like what I'm going to do later, right? Again, that concept of be a professional, also hang your own shingle, right? This is like voices in the back of my head and what I grew up hearing. And so it was always something I wanted to do. But I'm also, or at the time, I should say, I was very conservative and like, oh, I need to know everything before I do that, right?

51:20I need to have a background and understand business and understand contracts and, you know, have all the knowledge to be able to break out on your own. And like the clouds part, the sun shines through, right? You're ready. Someone just stoned that upon you. And so in my head, that's what would happen, right? I would practice a bunch in New York. I'd practice a bunch in California. And then eventually when I was, you know, all knowing, I would go out on my own. And that was not the case at all.

51:53Of course, you know, it's like you plan. And then you realize that's not the case. Or for some people. Some people are really good planners. Apparently, that is not me. So I had gotten this job at that interior designers studio. And I worked there for about a year. And it was great in theory. But in practice, maybe wasn't as good. The execution of the business wasn't there. And I think, you know, it's very true that they say when you start your own studio, the things that you start with often are not the things you want to do, but rather the things you don't want to do.

52:37And so that year of experience really taught me a lot of things that I did not want to do, as well as practices that I had, you know, come across in New York. Same thing. I didn't want the work around the clock mentality, that grind just to grind thought process. I felt there was a better way to do it. And a lot of those components were, you know, kind of percolating in the back of my brain. And then after I left that studio, again, timing, it's really interesting.

53:14I found out less than a week later that I was pregnant with our oldest daughter. And so I was like, well, the type of person I am, I don't want to go and get a job just to leave. Like I really when I when I commit to something, I wholeheartedly commit and I didn't feel like I could commit knowing that I was newly pregnant. So I decided, hey, I'm going to take this time. I will, you know, freelance for friends of ours who had started their own studio.

53:46I will freelance for colleagues that I had been kind of working on and off with while I was getting my license. Right. I had, you know, done a little side work and I'll just keep doing that. And then I'll, you know, figure it out again when, you know, after this baby is born. And Aaron was like, yeah, that's cool. Sounds good. He was working at a studio at the time. And he was like, well, if you're doing this, like you should create a website just so that it's easy if people ask you about it. Like, here's my website.

54:18So I was like, OK, cool. And I created a website and then he's like, well, you created it. You got to put it somewhere or else no one's going to know about it. It was like, OK, so I, you know, at the time, this is very much of the time I threw it up on Facebook. I was like, here, it's up somewhere. It sounds good. And all of a sudden. Facebook. Yeah, right. It's like, OK. All of a sudden, everyone was like, I didn't know you're opening up your own studio. And I was like, neither did I. But OK.

54:45And I wish it was a better origin story than that, but it wasn't. And that was it. And I got really good traction even while I was pregnant. And I was very honest with people. And I was like, hey, I, you know, I can't I can take this on, but I can't take it on immediately. They're like, yeah, no problem. We can wait. And so I lined up projects for when I was going to be back from maternity leave.

55:18And yeah, the rest is history. I hit the ground running in beginning of 2016 with an infant in tow. And it was it's been a wild ride ever since. That's incredible. And maternity leave probably lasted like a few weeks. I gave myself three months. Not to cry. But she was born in September. And so I said, OK, the beginning of January, it was a very good, like, you know, a start,

55:50like you start the new year. So it was it worked out timing wise. And yeah, that's awesome. Um, so at what point did Aaron join and what I guess the question is, like, at what point did the studio, did the office and studio become kind of like what it is now and not just the initial steps into a into kind of like, I guess I have an office. But when did it start to take shape? And when did you realize, OK, this is this is the studio.

56:21This is our lives. This is what we're doing. Yeah. So when everyone was like, oh, I didn't know you were starting a studio. And I said, neither did I, because I didn't. Right. I didn't have that thought of like, oh, I'm starting a studio. I basically started a solopreneur. Right. Like I was just just me doing my thing. And it was almost like just freelancing. It was the same concept. And then, um, I think what really changed the trajectory was the projects.

56:52Right. So I, um, starting a studio is a lot of hard work, but it's also a lot of luck. It's like, where are you at the right time with the right people? And I had a lot of luck, people finding me on LinkedIn. I have no idea why, but I did a lot of some of my first projects. That's where people found me. Um, and it snowballed from there. And I had studied for the CSE with a group of people.

57:25Um, most of them actually women and we had kept in touch and a few of them actually were also solopreneurs and we would meet and, you know, shoot the shit of like the woes of being a solopreneur and all these things. And we decided like, Hey, wouldn't it be great if we had help, but we don't really want to hire someone ourselves. Why don't we hire someone together? And there were three of us in total and we hired our first employee as a joint employee.

57:59And it allowed me to realize, oh, it is great to have help. And it is great to have people to collaborate with. And Aaron was always kind of helping on the side, right? Because we speak the same language. Yeah. Sure. He had a full-time job, but you know, on the nights and weekends, he'd kind of help a little bit here and there. And then at a certain point it became, oh, on Fridays, he would help. Like he was actually helping with the baby, right?

58:29Because I was only working part-time and then he'd be like, you know, taking his mom or my mom would take the baby and he'd actually be helping me instead of the baby. You know, so it morphed slowly, but I think that once I realized that having a team was something that I really enjoyed and it was less about being a solopreneur and more about having a studio, I realized that that was the goal.

59:00But it was also the goal to do it very methodically because I hadn't started the studio methodically and learning from past lives, past experiences. I didn't want to hire people on a per project basis. I didn't want to hire people to have them let go or to not be able to pay them. So I started on this very slow climb of obtaining business, gaining employees, also pivoting into

59:35different types of roles, right? Pivoting into different types of architecture. So our background is in retail and commercial and some residential. And I felt very strongly I wanted to keep that when opening up my own practice. So finding projects and being lucky enough to find them when you're just out of the gate in multiple disciplines. I had retail projects. I had residential projects. I had commercial projects.

1:00:06Also looking back, like, why did these people hire me? I knew nothing about LA permitting or any of that, right? Like, I was from New York in terms of my background. And so just being tenacious also and not faking it till you make it wholeheartedly, but kind of faking it till you make it, right? As long as you realize what you don't know and ask people that do know, right? And lean on others in your circle.

1:00:39I think that's huge. As I said, I had friends who worked for amazing residential practices. I had friends that had started their own studio. And so just reaching out to others. And I think also the old guard of architects that were very close to the chest and didn't collaborate and didn't share from business to business perspective had kind of died. And in the interim, our generation was very collaborative.

1:01:09And everyone wanted to be open about what should a fee be when you're starting out? What should, you know, what consultants should I use? What expediters are, you know, can I pick your brain about this? And that started what would later become a series of Slack channels that we've created that I'm, you know, now part of different groups, whether they're COOs or whether they're interior designers or we have an LA Arc Slack or fast forward, we had, you know, the fire Slack

1:01:44where it's just a lot about collaboration with colleagues. And you can have a small studio, but have the knowledge base of a whole, you know, a whole area at your fingertips. That's huge. Yeah, that's awesome. And I do agree. It is a generational difference in general. And I completely forgot that you guys had those Slack groups as well. You guys are very, very active.

1:02:14Kind of zooming forward in a sense to the studio today.

Running the studio and dividing work

1:02:18So what types of projects do you guys mostly do? How large is the office? And maybe more of a, and the other question too, which I'm sure listeners are wondering is how did the two of you split work? Is one, I'm sure this is not the case, but as one person like interiors and one person is architecture. That's a question we get very often. Everyone assumes the interiors, you know, like how does the, how does it work split take place? Yeah. So what kind of work do we do? Let's start there. So, um, pre COVID, I would say we were about 60, 40 or 70, 30, somewhere in that range of

1:02:56more commercial, uh, work to residential work. And then COVID obviously hugely changed that. Um, and pre COVID also, I had started really hitting the ground running with doing business development for, um, meeting developers, right. And just kind of looking into that type of residential work. And then during COVID, that type of work exploded. Right. So we ended up pivoting at that point and we became mostly residential quite quickly.

1:03:31Um, the word, world of commercial wasn't really doing anything. And we, we just took the opportunity and ran with it. Um, then fast forward 2022, um, maybe 2021, 2022, our commercial work came back. We did a whole, um, retail rollout for Therabody. That was a huge part of our, um, our retail experience in LA. Um, we work for a, we've had a client for eight years at this point.

1:04:06Um, they are a hospitality client, uh, specifically they operate event spaces throughout the country and we have helped them grow. They're also a family business. Um, when I started working with them, they had 35 venues. Now we're up to, oh my goodness, uh, maybe 90. And we've opened in a ton of new markets, um, all across the country. So we've gone into areas in the South and the Northeast, the Northwest, all over California,

1:04:38Colorado, Arizona, Texas, all over the place. Um, and that's been just an incredible ride. Um, and then we also have a bunch of residential work that we maintain and have, um, done. We've been really lucky for basically being in practice for almost a decade now, a little bit less, um, just the amount of work we've been able to accomplish. I'm, I'm really proud of our team. It's, it's been a lot. So today we, I would say hold about 50, 50 because of that, um, that one client, we still

1:05:16do a lot of commercial, but again, we do a lot of residential, especially. Post fires. Now we're doing a ton of fire rebuilds. Um, and we enjoy keeping it, uh, kind of a mix. We don't, we don't have an interest in doing only one or the other. Um, some people would say that maybe isn't the right way to go because you can't specialize in anything, but I've never had. Not niching. Exactly. I've never had the goal to niche. It, it doesn't keep us interested in the same way.

1:05:49Um, so that's kind of the practice now in terms of how many people we've ebbed and flowed, um, less about workflow for a long time. We had the same team pretty consistently. I would say in the last 18 months, especially with the fires, it's, there's been a lot of just kind of movement within the world of architecture and interiors. People kind of either just deciding this is not for them right now or changing kind of

1:06:23the goals of the profession. Like maybe they want to go more into development versus private client work, things like that. Um, and we've also started kind of trying to experiment in having people not within the studio, right? Having remote type work. Uh, we use ARCHICAD. So I think that's also, um, yeah, um, we do too, so that also, as you know, is, uh, adds a level of complexity when hiring because

1:06:53a lot of people don't use it. And so we have to teach, um, and kind of not only teach what we do as a studio, but also teach, uh, software. So that makes onboarding people more complicated. So we found that if we have people that are working remotely as well as people within the studio, at least that is a little bit less difficult because there are a lot more people, non LA based that do use ARCHICAD as their primary software. For sure.

1:07:23Um, and so right now our team is about nine people. Um, and at any one time we've been, I think 12 at the most and, um, you know, anything in between that. Um, yeah. And what was the last question? I forgot. The last one was, uh, that's a great, that's a great overview, by the way. Um, the last one is, so how do you guys share their work or who, who has which responsibilities? Yeah, that is a great question. And I think that's also morphed over time, right?

1:07:56Because, um, we aren't so prescriptive about it. And I think we both also have interests in a lot of different components of architecture and business. And also we have strengths in a lot of overlapping components, but also a lot of different different components. Um, we both have a strength in interiors. So neither one of us is heavily one versus the other because we both practice New York. Like you, David, we have that same, you know, concept and lexicon.

1:08:29Um, we, I would say gravitate where I'm a little bit more heavily business, uh, development, business admin, you know, kind of running the business day to day where Aaron tends to enjoy getting more, uh, getting more into the details and nitty gritty of construction and architecture in that component. We both heavily design in the world of architecture.

1:09:00And, um, we both do, uh, residential and commercial. I would say Aaron does more, um, retail recently than I do. I do more of the hospitality side of work. Um, and then we split the residential projects. So I think the difference is we don't actually get to work on anything together as much as we did. Um, because that's very few and far between it's kind of like divide and conquer within

1:09:33projects. Do you guys miss those days? I do. I do. I think that, you know, because we grew up speaking the same language in our architectural career, there's a comfort and a shorthand and it allows a design maybe to get farther faster. Um, and that is.

1:10:03It's something really fun. But at the same time, when you're running a studio and you have other people here, you just got to divide and conquer. So it just doesn't happen as much. Yeah. I have the same, same feelings. And I'm sure any architect who has their own practice that has grown over time has experienced the same thing. The way I, I, I feel about it or think about it, it's, it's kind of like, you know, for the two of us and the two of you back in the day when the, when everyone gets to work

1:10:33closely with each other, it's like, you're, um, like a jazz musician improvising with the fellow jazz musician who you've known for 20 more years. And you're just, you can just go. And your eyes are closed and you're just vibing on the music. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're just riffing and it just, it just flows versus, you know, you're a, let's say senior jazz musician being paired with a novice. And it's a little bit like, it's a little clunky and you have to coach them and figure out how to make it, make it work with them as a unique individual, uh, which it's, it's

1:11:04also has its own benefits and its own pleasures, but it's a very, it's a very different thing. It's not like sitting in that pocket with the person you've known for a long time. Totally. Totally. And I think that also for us, like the, where we do get to collaborate often is less in the design component. Although we do have, you know, studio conversations, we are an open office. So it's very much like, Hey, what is your thought about this? Or, Oh, you know, uh, Aaron's done this before, or Becky is, you know, more trained in classical architecture.

1:11:34So what are your thoughts on this roof line? Right? Like this is a little bit outside my comfort zone, but I think the place that we do overlap more is where we, um, have conversations about workflow or client communication, or, you know, the things that don't come as naturally to architects. Um, we still do heavily collaborate on those. And I think that that's still really important so that we both have our, ourselves two feet

1:12:09implanted in the business, even though both of us aren't implanted in every single project that happens within the studio. Yeah. That makes sense. And I feel like it's almost necessary because if that alignment isn't there, then everything else can crumble super quickly. I mean, I've been in studios like that. I've, I've felt it as a, yeah. When the leadership is not in sync, like you can, you can sense it. Yeah. Um, more of a design, I guess it's a design question is, do you guys have a, how, what's

1:12:41my, what's my question here? I'm going to throw a bunch of words that are probably not exactly right, but do you guys have a, a, a conscious, uh, philosophy, way of working style, you, the word style, uh, aesthetic agenda, uh, you know, thesis that is a through line through the, the, the projects like, do you have a, what's the other word I'm missing a manifesto of sorts. And I ask that because I think it's both maybe from the perspective of, from the outsiders or like the, the public witnessing and saying, okay, that, that's your thing.

1:13:14And also from the inside of the profession of a lot of architects either consciously want, or they evolve into a place where they do have a certain set of sensibilities that are continuous. Um, is this something you guys think about?

Design philosophy and process

1:13:27We think about it all the time, but for us, I think that we think about it from a perspective of not being prescriptive. So our manifesto is less that this is our design ethos or a design philosophy. We always do modern design, or we always work in this vernacular and more about, we are nimble in our design aesthetic, but what we are not nimble in is our process. We are very prescriptive in our design process in that we are incredibly client driven.

1:14:02So we are heavily, um, involved in kind of understanding who our client is, what their goals are, what their desires are, their thoughts. And that's both on the residential and the commercial side, right? Like what is the goal of what we're setting out to do? And less about just listening to the client's brief of like, I have to have this, or I have to have that.

1:14:32And more about like, well, why, right? We are a very inquisitive studio in, we like to question, um, more is not better. Bigger is not better. Uh, flashier is not better. Right. Especially when we're talking about a lot of these budgets and in the world of construction that we live in right now with the costs, it's just, it's bananas. So it's crazy. We really try to have our manifesto be the process and whatever comes out on the other end of that

1:15:07process. Our goal is not to have preconceived notions about it. And we tell our clients the same, you have to surrender to the architectural process. It will go so much smoother as a result. And then when we look back and we look at what we create as an end result, we realize there is a through thread to the designs and the aesthetics, even if the styles are completely

1:15:37different, right? It's a lot about truth in materiality, truth in flow, right? Um, adjacencies, no frills, right? Even if you're working in a very traditional architecture, it still has to be very well programmed space. And also then it goes back to living in California and the majority of our projects, at least on the residential side are in California and, you know, in, in the greater LA area in particular,

1:16:10that indoor outdoor flow, right? It's not just about like, okay, big back doors. Cool. Yes, that's a given, but like, really, can we figure out a way to institute light and air and, uh, green space into the architecture in other ways and on urban infill lots that gets continuously more monotonous in a way, right? So we're trying to get more creative as we move through because, you know, you're surrounded

1:16:41by buildings and often not necessarily nice buildings on either side, right? So how do we kind of keep ourselves interested and our clients interested? It's really the process for us. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I think one of the points that stands out in particular is you said like clients to understand that you have to be willing to embrace that process and let things go the way they're going to go because it is true.

1:17:12Um, like once you, once you're in it, decisions about the architecture start to kind of make themselves for, and that could be because of, uh, just the pure artistic decisions, like naturally things want to fall where they fall or material wants to be what it wants to be or for permitting reasons or for budget reasons for like things just kind of will fall into place if you have, uh, a, you know, a team of experts and the part and projects in particular with clients where there's friction is when somebody's trying to shoehorn in some, a preconceived

1:17:48idea that they've had. And that, that like, that like an irritant that the grain of sand, um, sometimes is productive or produces a pearl in that analogy. Other times it just is a rock in the shoe and is, it's going to just, it causes more and more problems and the problems that come bigger, the further you go along when there's a small one at the beginning. Right. So I think that's a great take, you know, for everybody, especially clients who are not new to this, like you have to be to some degree open to, to, to ideas into the process.

1:18:19Otherwise it's going to be painful for, for everybody. But it kind of goes both directions. It's not just clients being open to the process. It's also us being open to the process because, and again, this goes back to practicing longer and having more reps, you have to make sure you're not lifting the same weight because your muscles used to it, right? You really have to push yourself to get out of your own comfort zone and your own preconceived notions.

1:18:49At a certain point, a floor plan gets easy because you've done it a hundred times. But if you stop producing the same thing, because it's something that you're used to producing, that is much harder, much more complex. And it's something that both architects have to be cognizant of and clients have to be cognizant of so that in the end, you're both uncomfortable in a good way.

1:19:21Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's an interesting thing that we do, right? Because you, you really have to be, um, to, to, to practice the way you're describing. And by the way, I don't know how other architects, I don't know how one could practice differently from what you said, like without getting to know the client or whatever else, but you really have to be quite self-aware of, of your own biases, you know, your, your mood and then your teams and all those things. It's, um, it's an interesting profession. It's very interesting profession.

1:19:51And I, I do, I wouldn't say there are other studios or architecture practices that have the ethos of, we do high design, um, that don't necessarily practice that way. But I think that in, especially in Southern California, we've amalgamated the definition of an architect, a designer, and people producing plans. And those three things are not the same.

1:20:23And it's really been a disservice to our, at least our residential architecture. You know, we won't, you know, in, in California, we're allowed to permit homes, right? Up to two stories in a basement without a license. And therefore there's a bunch of draftsmen running around producing plans and they don't care at all about who they're designing them for, what the purpose of them or what's coming

1:20:53out on the paper. And I think that we as architects really need to educate the general populace of what an architect does versus what the rest of the, you know, profession, so to speak, does. Right. Yeah, I agree. And that, that's a whole, it's a whole nother conversation. And it's something that is causing a lot of pain for architects, but also pain for clients

1:21:25and just confusion. Yeah, confusion. It's so confusing. I mean, and, and I think it also goes back to the fact that there is, you know, despite us being professionals, there is no, let's say standard that each of us are following, you know, as architects or even as contractors, right? Like the, the realm of possibilities out there is wild. And as a client, if you know nothing about, you know, what to expect, like, how would you know which way to go and which one is right and which one is wrong? So you're right.

1:21:55And that's something, you know, we preach often in, you know, recording and conversation is like teaching the clients, like the only way to make the public better at understanding what we do is to explain to them what we do, what we don't do. And then just, you know, have them share that with their friends and spread the word. But also it doesn't, it goes back to not what's right or what's wrong, right? Like going to McDonald's and getting fast food and going to Vespertine and having fine dining experience, one is not right versus wrong, I guess, depending on your perspective, right?

1:22:28But, um, they're offering very different services and we've been educated as consumers to know the difference of those services. But if you ask a very well-educated, uh, person who is going to build a home, what does an architect do versus what does a draftsman do? They have no idea. And frankly, they don't understand the difference until they're in it with the draftsman and

1:22:59they realize, and they were expecting a custom home and they were like, oh God, no, this doesn't work. And they only have 15 pages of permit sets. And you're like, well, you're missing a hundred pages. We've seen, we've, we've had someone approach us and say, oh, I've, I've worked, I've hired this quote architect. We've been working for the last half a year. It's not going so well. Can you take a look at the project? Here are my quote construction documents. I'm like, a not a licensed architect, uh, B, these are not construction documents. And I, but I think you're totally right. The number of stairs don't work and your floors actually, you can't get up from A to B.

1:23:34Literally that's funny, but like, been there, done that. Yeah. Yeah. We've, um, I've not seen stairs. I have seen though, going back to like the, the integration of inters and architecture and and that importance, we have seen a number of times where like doors won't open because they have a radius on the swing and they've drawn a room where the bed will block the door from opening. Yes. Um, it's crazy, but, but you are right though, that it's not a, uh, it's not, it's not necessarily a right or wrong or one size fits all or one method or one professional is best for everybody.

1:24:08But I think it would obviously be better if the consumer, your analogy, at least knows the facts. So they know what they're getting into. So if they want to go their route and it makes sense for them to exclude, you know, services, X number of services, a, we would provide, or you would provide, and that makes sense for them, then fine. But the problem is most people don't know that and they get all conflated and, you know, then they're bummed out. Like I said, halfway into the process or like, wait, so no, one's choosing the tile for me.

1:24:40You know, yeah. And that's a whole nother conversation, splitting architecture and interiors. Oh my gosh. Guys, how many more times can we do this? As many as you want. You don't plan on stopping the show.

Favorite buildings and wrap up

1:24:53So, um, but we are at the hour. The final question we like to ask, which is more for fun is what is your favorite building?

1:25:03Oh my gosh. It's the hardest question of the show. We realized this. I don't have a favorite building, but I do have, I have a building that I remember learning about and then going to see, and you get the same kind of goosebump feeling in both instances. And that's, um, some sort of, some florist thermal baths. Uh, they, I remember reading about them in a book and just being like the play of light

1:25:39and shadow, the heaviness, the views, the vistas, they were just so inspiring. And I love some Thor and the way that, you know, the tectonics of it, the way things come together. And then when we were studying in Italy, we had the opportunity to actually go to the thermal baths and not only go to see them, but like go to be inside of them and experiencing that and getting that same feeling of that. You get off the page in a picture, right?

1:26:11Of the light, the dark, the heaviness, also the warmth, because you're in warm water. Um, it was very, very interesting and enlightening and, uh, something that I can only strive for in, in the architecture we produce. It's a high, a high task, but you know. Yeah, that's awesome. We haven't been there. So we, it's on the, uh, it's on the list. Um, uh, Harper, this was amazing. Thanks so much for making the time. I'm sure the conversations will continue on and off air.

1:26:41Uh, this is great. Love what you guys are doing and that's a great way to, to kick off a Friday. Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely chatting with you guys. So easy. Anytime. Thanks everyone for listening to this week's episode. If you want to support the show, then please leave a review of it in the Apple podcast app. You can also find us on Spotify and YouTube. The podcast, um, has an Instagram, which is second studio pod. That's also our website. And, and, uh, the website, you can find all the episodes. We're at 500. I don't even know 500 and something now.

1:27:13Uh, on Instagram, we have clips, reels, same difference, quotes, work images. And now I don't use Instagram for often. So my language is, we have shorts on Instagram, um, and, uh, a bunch of fun stuff on there. Give us a follow. We also have a hotline, which is 213-222-6940, zero, excuse me. So you can call or text that number, leave a voicemail, or if you send a text message to provide us, uh, guests, suggestions, questions, whatever else, and, um, more fun stuff to come

1:27:48soon. Right. Yep. Yep. Later. Bye. Bye. Bye.