#524 - Juhee Lee-Hartford, Founder and Managing Partner of River Architects

Introducing Architect Juhi Lee Hartford

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Boradero-Nay. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. And today our guest is Juhi Lee Hartford. Juhi is a Korean-American architect and a writer, and she's also the founder of River Architects. Yes, based in New York, Hudson. Hudson Valley. Hudson Valley. Juhi's story is super interesting, as you folks will hear. This is one of the more personal interviews, conversations we've had in a while, and a lot of it is centered around her Korean heritage.

0:39She was in Korea, then the United States, and a few different places, but mostly New York, ran away from home, went back to Korea. All of these different things happened in this very interwoven timeline and life of hers, and then she eventually kind of goes back to studying and understanding Korean architecture after being in the United States. And that's where she is right now in her kind of journey. And she's finishing up a manuscript as well, an exhibition coming online with Korean architects.

1:11So, a lot of really cool things, and I think it, for me at least, it caused me to think about this angle of architecture discussion a lot more than normal. Are you going to dive into your Chinese roots? I'm too distant. It would be more accurate for me to study European architecture at this point. Anyway, yeah, this was a lovely conversation. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. Sponsors. Stop juggling multiple pieces of software and struggling with design-unfriendly spreadsheets. Programma, built by designers for designers, provides an integrated suite of tools for every phase of your project,

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2:51This is the second studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Juhi. Here we go.

Childhood on Jeju Island

2:54I was born in Daegu, South Korea, but that was because my father was teaching in that region of South Korea. Our family is rooted on Jeju Island, and so long story short, part of my childhood, most significant part of my childhood, was in Jeju, you know, going to public school there, up to third grade. And just in the last few months of my time on Jeju Island, on that school field,

3:32was me just intuitively drawing floor plans with the heel of my feet. Is that because, did you have any relatives or anyone around you who was an architect? Like, why, why, why draw floor plans? Well, no, nobody was an architect in our family. But, so, the school, you know, typical of Korean elementary school, there's, you know, sand field, you know, playing field is full of sand.

4:08And after just a light rain, our friends and I were playing house. And I, or maybe we were just playing, and I said, oh, I have an idea. And I just dragged my feet across, and I drew two-level house plan per friend.

4:28And I said, this is my house, that's your house. And we would, you know, play house like that. It was so much fun. Was it like an open plan or what kind of plan? Do you remember the plan that you drew? Like, I don't, I mean, remember, like, living room, like, double height. I imagine, like, a double height living space and bedroom upstairs. And it was very funny because I've never really had experienced two-level house. I don't think. Oh, maybe my, my grand aunt had a two-level house.

5:01But, yeah, it just all came naturally to me. You know, that's just, like, snap idea. Like, oh, let's draw floor plans and play house like that. Yeah. I mean, the playing house does, that does make sense. That's a pretty common childhood thing to do. Yeah, but it's not coming to draw floor plans when you were a kid. Not that way, yeah.

5:20So, I'm not so familiar with Korea. So, the city, and I'm going to butcher the name that you mentioned, what was it like there? Was it more urban, rural, suburban? It was rural Jeju Island. Let's see, the little small town that I grew up in is called Mosulpo. And it's a fishing village. And it's towards, like, most southern tip of the island.

5:51And so, if you, Koreans like to describe the Korean peninsula as a rabbit. And, like, the island of Jeju is rabbits dropping. That's how they call it. Okay, I wasn't expecting that. I thought you were going to say the ear or the tail.

6:15Yeah. So, a fairly small town, it sounds like.

Immigrating to New York

6:21And I think you said that you were there only up to a certain age, and then you guys moved? Yes. So, I was eight years old. Eight years old when I was drawing the floor plans, and about eight years old when we immigrated to United States. Okay, so, from that age, drawing plans, moving to the United States, at what point did you decide that you would pursue architecture? Or was there anything about the experience of the United States at that age that is of note or shaped you, you know, for what you do today?

6:56So, this is really funny because, I mean, you would think that I come to New York City, and I would be awestruck by Empire State Building, or the steps of Metropolitan Museum. But it was the moment that I saw before and after photo in, like, Home and Garden magazine, I think. That's when I was like, oh, that's what I want to do, you know.

7:27And I didn't even know the word, you know. And so, I asked around, and, yeah, architect was the word that I landed on. Wait, so, when you moved from Korea to the United States, you moved to New York City, is that right? First, we landed in Lansing, Michigan. Our father was studying there. And my stepmother, he had remarried recently because our mother had passed away in Korea.

7:58And I guess I should tell a little more background. So, when we moved in with our grandmother on Jeju Island, our father was, that was because our father decided to pursue his master's and doctoral degree in psychology. And, yeah, so that's why he came to United States by himself. And the original plan was that my mother and our three of us, myself and two siblings, would join him, you know, a few years later.

8:37But that got halted because of Korean politics. And there are other things that got us all tangled. And, boy, I'm sorry, I'm tracking this longer than I had expected. No, no, no. No, no, no, no. So, she passed. This is interesting. Yeah. And so, she passes away. And then, our father ends up remarrying somebody in New York City through introduction.

9:08And that's how we ended up in New York City. And, yeah, so, and interestingly, I mean, it's all tangled web of all these strange coincidences that have led me to New York and have led me to become an architect. And so, what's also strange is that I go back to Korea and the first thing that I encounter, even before I set my foot in Korea, oh, boy, this story is getting complicated, is the death of my mother.

9:51And, and death of our mother leads me to learn more about Korea, Korea's built environment. So, it's a very interesting tangled web of story. Yeah.

10:09So, but I think it's also, you know, kind of important and relevant because I know a lot of your, your, what's the right word? Your, your thinking, your, your existence, and your kind of self-reflection is about your, your heritage, right? From what I've, you know, read and whatnot. So, when you come back to Korea and then your mother passes and that led you into kind of getting deeper into the Korean culture and the built environment, like you said,

10:41what, what, what were some of the things that you had uncovered or that was new to you during that process that you didn't understand before?

High School and Leaving Home

10:51It's a, a multi-layered learning process. And so, to take a step back, so when, when we moved to New York City to meet and move in with our stepmother, of course, you know, storybook clash, you know, between the stepmother and the stepdaughter. And, and she, there was one point where, you know, our father was a constant student, you know, so he was constantly pursuing his doctoral degree, you know, how PhD can, dissertation can drag out.

11:38And, and, and so, um, our stepmother was stressed out about our, um, financial situation. And so then she asked me to drop out of high school to help make up for the lack of my father's income. And I ran away from home. I, did you say, wait, did you say you ran away from home? Right. Yeah. I ran away from home because I really wanted to, education was very important.

12:08To me, it's just like a, you know, that innate, um, pull, you know, to be educated and to learn. I mean, I just love to learn. And I had my eyes set on being an architect and, and, uh, she, she thought that I should just go work for a Korean salon and, and, and earn a lot of tips and bring that home, you know? So, yeah, I, I, I, I'm, you know, I joke with my friends that if I did follow her advice, I probably would have like multimillion dollar chain in that business, but I, I don't.

12:47Yeah. Yeah. Um, out of curiosity, was your stepmother Korean also? Yes. Yeah. She was Korean American. Yeah. So, okay. So you're in New York. What year was this approximately? Right. Uh, I, I'm trying to backtrack. I think that was, um, 1994. Um, okay. Yeah. I was, uh, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry. Uh, trying to 1990s, 19, um, oh goodness. Because, like, 1990s were my college years.

13:20So, late 80s, it was late 80s when I ran away from home. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, uh, talk me through that as well, because New York City, where New York City were you guys, by the way? Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens? Uh, um, as any typical Korean, uh, New York family, we were in Queens. Um, um, Bayside, Queens, and, um, I mean, you know, our stepmother worked really hard, you know, to support, um, so there were five of us, you know, combined family, five, um, children, um, plus, you know, two parents.

13:59And so she was supporting all of us. And she, you know, managed to buy a house in Bayside, Queens, which is a middle, you know, income, uh, family neighborhood. Um, um, so, yeah, we were based in Bayside. And then, um, uh, let's see. And then, yeah, so that was late, um, 1980s. And, um, I have a lot of memories, um, going to and from, like passing through Flushing, um, you know, now Flushing is, um, I think more, uh, Chinese, Vietnamese, um, Southeast Asian oriented.

14:44But back then it was a lot of Koreans, a lot of Korean signs everywhere. Yeah. It's the Q train out there, I think, right? No, the seven. No, what is it? Seven train. I remember. Yes. Is it the seven? Seven train. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember, um, so my experience, our experience of New York City was much more recent. It's a good spot for dumplings. Good spot for dumplings. That is true. Yeah. Um, my memory of, of New York is much more recent. My experience of New York is much more recent than that, but I do recall the seven train cutting through and it's, it's weird.

15:14I mean, this is the broader experience of New York anyway, but specifically with the seven train, which runs kind of, uh, east to west, let's say, it cuts through all these different neighborhoods. And so if you stay on that train through a longer journey, you see like completely different populations, but very distinct populations come on the train and get off. And it's like, you're cutting through like these, uh, like, you know, this cross section of different cultures on one train in 45 minutes is very, it's a really interesting and cool thing to witness. Right.

15:45Uh, I believe Queens, New York is one of the most diverse cities in the world is what I understand. Hmm. Yeah. I, I could certainly imagine that. So, um, and not, not to linger too much on this, but like when you run away from home and you're in Queens, where do you go? How far did you get? Like what, what happens exactly? Because I cannot imagine myself doing that. I'd be too afraid. I'd probably get 20 steps away across the street. Then I'd come back home.

16:17Um, it, it, um, boy, this, I mean, I, I wrote about this in my, um, memoir yet to be published, but, um, I, the, the reason what drove me of course was all that buildup of, you know, uh, my stepmother trying to have me drop out of high school. And, and, and, and, you know, have me just be domesticated, um, as well. Um, and then, um, I was dating, um, I had a Chinese American boyfriend at that time that, that my father did disapproved of.

16:56And, um, and, um, and so, uh, he told me to get rid of him, not, not in a life and death situation. Not kill him, right? Not in the, not in the Gowanus Canal. Uh, yes. He said, you know, you're done. Don't, you don't need a boyfriend, blah, blah, blah. And, um, but I, so, but, and he rode with me on a seven train, you know, to the last stop every day after school.

17:29Um, so that we can spend a little more time together. And, um, on his way back, um, he was, uh, beaten up badly by some, some gangsters. And that's what made me go to my father. I said, I need to go see him in the hospital. And, and that's when he and I had a huge fight. And so that was a perfect, um, catalyst, you know, for me, like I, I was waiting for something to happen so that I can run away.

18:00And, and my father gave me the perfect reason to run away. And we had a huge fight. And then, um, and I, I left and went to visit, uh, my boyfriend, um, in the hospital and, um, and his family saw the bruises on my back and said, you're not going home. Um, so they took me in. Yeah. Wow. So you were with another family for how long? For seven years. Seven years. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay.

18:30So this was not a three day run away from home. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. And, um, I have to say, um, his family was very, very kind and generous. I didn't need to do any housework, which was a huge burden.

18:46And yeah, yeah. Huge burden, you know. Uh, back home at my parents' house, but yeah, I didn't need to lift a finger. His mother was just so kind to me. She would give me allowance every so often, every, you know, holiday or my birthday or, you know, she was just so, so kind to me. Um, um. And how old were you then? How old? I was 16 when I, uh, ran away and stayed until I finished the five-year program at Pratt. Wow. Yeah.

19:17Yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay. Yeah. That is a, that's a, that's a pretty radical story.

Studying Architecture at Pratt

19:22Um, so then when you're in high school, it, it, that's the, that's about the time when it was clear that you were going to go study architecture. And it sounded, did you go immediately from high school to Pratt right afterwards? Or was there like a gap period of sorts? Um, so luckily I went to Brooklyn Tech, um, which I think was perfect for me. I mean, I, I know I sought out Brooklyn Tech because they had architecture program. And, um, so we, uh, we studied like drafting and architectural history and, um, design, little touch of design.

20:03I even learned AutoCAD, um, at Brooklyn Tech. And, um, and then I put together a very ad hoc portfolio for Pratt and entered their national talent search and got a partial scholarship. And so, yeah, so Brooklyn Tech is only 10 blocks away from Pratt. And so that was the only drawback, um, meaning I didn't get to really venture out elsewhere, but yeah, they did offer me, you know, partial scholarships. So that's where I went.

20:34Yeah. I mean, also Pratt is a, it's a very good school. It was probably a good school back then. Um, loved every minute. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Was there, and this is a question listeners know that I love to ask. Once you got into Pratt, um, and the, the education there, was there anything that surprised you that seemed, that didn't align with whatever thoughts you might have, have had about architecture? You know, it, it's so funny you ask me that because that's, um, so when I left my parents' house, my, you know, father and my stepmother's house.

21:13And moved in, uh, and moved in, uh, with my Chinese, um, adopted family, quote unquote, um, my boyfriend's family. Um, I, I was, I just said, I have nothing to do with Korea. I, I, um, and so I, um, and so I tried becoming Chinese, although I didn't have time to learn the language. I pretended to be Chinese. I didn't, I tried to forget the language. Um, and, um, and so this brings to your question about Pratt and what, what was surprising, um, um, was that it was time when, um, Derrida, um, I, I have a hard time pronouncing, um, his name, Jacques Derrida.

21:58Is that how you say it, Marina? Uh, the French philosopher. And deconstructivism was very popular. Oh, um, uh, I, I think I know who you're talking about, but I also would probably mess up their name. Um, it'll come to me later on in this conversation, probably. I, I, I know what you're talking, uh, you said it was philosopher, right? Right. French philosopher who dissected words and, um, he would break up words and put additional meaning into things.

22:30And, um, so architects, um, our professors and students were trying to make architecture out of his words and out of his philosophy. And it just seems so arbitrary to me. And, um, so that was. Architects love to do that kind of stuff. Oh, Derrida. Derrida. Oh, I see, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I batched his word, his name. No, you got it.

23:00And, um, and so he, so that just seemed really arbitrary. And I was third year. So in my early twenties, and that's when I started to, um, uh, come around to like, okay, so, um, maybe I should look into Korean architecture and see what it has to offer, you know, for my identity, my unique voice. And I went to Pratt library and there was about like this much on Japanese architecture and maybe a little less on Chinese architecture and zero books on Korean architecture.

23:37I was like, what, what was that? I'm like, did I miss it? I, I went like this couple of times. And, um, and the thought that popped into my head. Oh, no. And so, and then I searched New York City public libraries as well, and I didn't find anything. And I said, well, I guess I'll have to write one myself. And I was like, what are you talking about? And so that kind of set me on a certain journey. I mean, it's a thought that popped into my head and I didn't, I couldn't really pursue it because I was still in school and I was busy, you know, trying to do what I needed to do to graduate with, you know, high grades and, and working at the same time.

24:20And so after, um, I graduated, I got my internship, um, um, at Hardy Holzman Pfeiffer associates. Oh yeah.

Working at Hardy Holzman Pfeiffer

24:34Yeah.

Working at Hardy Holzman Pfeiffer

24:35And, um, I got burned out after three years. Yeah. After three years of working. Yes. After three years of, um, interns, two and a half years of internship. And I was so burned out working on a, a pretty high profile project, uh, called Bridge Market, which is not a high profile in a sense of architectural world, but it was a, um, uh, adaptive reuse of, um, Guastavino vaulted space under Queensborough Bridge on Manhattan side.

25:09And so it was very, very complex project, a $24 million project, and it was put on a 20 something year old intern, um, you know, who was not licensed yet. And so it was like sink or swim kind of situation. Yeah. Um, but there's also an interesting backstory to that because when I was at Pratt, um, my third year, uh, design professor had taken us to that bridge, that very space, um, to design a homeless shelter under the bridge.

25:44And so we had measured and we had draft, you know, we had created this whole, um, space. So I knew the space very well. And, um, and I mean, that project was in my portfolio, but when I, um, oh, when we were there at the site measuring with my classmates, um, one of our, uh, classmates said, oh, there is a firm who's actually doing real project on this very site. And she showed us a little brochure and I said, hmm, that would be a fun project to work on.

26:20And I didn't think much of it. And then one day, um, one Saturday working there at that time, I was working on Radio City Music Hall, I think it was just, you know, a starter, a rookie intern. And, um, so I, I, I sent a drawing to the plotter, you know, I had, I had print and I go downstairs and I'm expecting my drawing. To come out, you know, something with the Radio City Music Hall, but another familiar drawing rolls out from the plotter.

26:50And I said, oh my gosh, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's like, this is the firm. This is the firm that's working on the Queensborough Bridge. Didn't think much of it. And I didn't ask anybody, like, can I work on the project or not? You know, like I didn't, I didn't follow up on anything. I was like, oh, wow. What a coincidence. Then, um, maybe a few months later, they said, you'll be working on, you know, Queensborough Bridge, Bridge Market Project. Um, that's cool.

27:25Yeah. And the funny thing is I've had, looking back, I've had several incidences like that where something crosses my path and I say, oh, well, wouldn't it be nice? And it would happen, you know, and so it doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it makes me wonder, um, you know, is the universe listening to me or like somebody, somebody listening to my thoughts?

27:56Or at times, I mean, the whole journey back to Korea and, and what I was learning and just, it just made me feel as if my ancestors were looking over me or even at times it felt like my life was written before I was born. Yeah. It's really strange. And so I'm trying to figure out what that means. Hopefully I can figure out before I die. That, that would be nice.

28:26That would be the trick. Um, that's, that is really interesting. Um, I, so, uh, Hardy Holtzman Pfeiffer is, is kind of an older, uh, firm, firm name. Um, I know them because actually I ended up working for a very brief period of time from one of the offshoots. As you probably know, they split off into two or three different offices. And I think the one I was at now dissolved, it was acquired by another office kind of, unfortunately, but anyway, um, they did really, really good work.

28:59Um, I mean, they, they were a big and very reputable office on the East coast in New York city. Uh, but it sounds like the, the work, it was brutal. It was tough to work there. Like the hours were crazy or for me, it was, um, in particular because, um, here's another fun, funny backstory is that. So this project bridge market was in HHPA Hardy Holtzman Pfeiffer's associates for at least two decades. Uh, it was like a stop and go, stop and go project and the neighbors, there were like a huge dispute, uh, from the, um, um, uh, neighborhood, um, districts.

29:41And, um, and so the project was paused until the year that I got in there. I think that's when it restarted. Um, and, um, um, the developer was actually based, um, based in California, I believe Sacramento, um, if I remember correctly. And then, um, the developer negotiated such a low fee to finish the project. Um, I, I heard that, uh, Hugh Hardy was just so angry.

30:12He was just so, so angry. And I think my theory is that they said, you know what, you can go to hell and I'm going to put an intern on this project.

30:24And so I think that's why my life was so difficult, but, um, but I, at the same time, I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. I learned so much. Um, yeah. Even the site superintendent was like, Julie, you know, you would have to have eight, at least eight years of experience before you can get to this place. You know, um, and on top of that, it was such a challenging site, you know, with, um, high voltage line coming from Con Edison, you know, Queens, um, plant in Con Edison. And there were traffic lines going through the site.

30:57Um, and, um, that control, you know, if, if we nicked it, like it would shut down half of Manhattan. Um, oops, it was a crazy situation and, um, um, uh, CME construction, uh, was on that, uh, the CM. Um, and even though they gave us such a hard time, I really bonded with everybody on, on the, um, on the team and we had so much fun. Um, and the owner's rep, um, of the developer, you know, became my mentor because he saw how hard I was working.

31:33So in the end it worked out well, except, um, I almost fell down the elevator chute because I was, I was just really burned out.

The Fulbright Fellowship in Korea

31:43Um, and I was not thinking very well. And I don't think anybody knows that HHPA that I almost fell down the elevator chute, but I, I was like, okay, I, I've got to do something. And, um, I kept telling my husband, um, um, that, um, who's also an architect that I, I, I needed to take some time off and I, how I miss Korea. I need to go back. Um, and, um, he said, why don't you apply to Fulbright, um, Fulbright program and I didn't expect anything of it, but lo and behold, um, I was accepted and I found out because nobody had, they said nobody had proposed to study how Koreans used to live and how they live now.

32:30Now, of course, you know, someone who had ran away from home, I was very interested in learning about how Koreans used to live and how they live now. And what tradition lingers and why I was really, I wanted to interrogate the country in my own way. So that's, um, that's what I proposed to do in a very diplomatic way. Um, Fulbright and Fulbright had no idea that this was, you know, my personal vendetta against the country. Um, and so just, just sort of for, for people listening who don't know what the Fulbright is.

33:03So can you describe what that program is and what it offers? Um, yes, um, uh, it was, uh, created by, um, uh, Senator Fulbright of Arkansas when, uh, at the end of World War II, he, uh, he was devastated what war did to countries. And, um, um, he also had gone to, um, um, um, oh gosh, the British, um, exchange program. Um, is it low, um, not, uh, low, uh, low, uh, oh gosh.

33:39There's a, um, I, another international exchange program, um, that is based in, um, in, um, UK. Uh, I'm sorry, the name will come to me, um, another time. Um, so he had experienced that and how, uh, he, uh, believed that, um, personal friendship and cultural exchange could possibly, um, uh, prevent war, future wars.

34:09And so he created this, um, um, um, international cultural research and exchange program in the United States and how he did it was very interesting because he knew he would have, um, conservative, um, senators opposing his, his idea. And so he snuck it in, into, um, I forget the name of the bill at that time, but at the end of World War II, United States had, um, some funds and, you know, spread in, um, multi countries that could not come home for some reason.

34:47Like it couldn't, they couldn't retract that money back. And so he proposed to use that money to fund international educational and research program. Interesting. So you apply, you get it. How does that research endeavor go and how long did it last for? Uh, the Fulbright program was officially for 10 months. Um, and at that time, so it was year 2000. 2000 and they gave me, um, uh, equivalent of, uh, $40,000, uh, U S dollars, um, to live there.

35:24And I was able to stretch that for 12 months, um, of living costs, et cetera. We were not allowed to work. Um, it was strictly, the visa was strictly for educational purposes only. Um, and, um, it was. It was, uh, it was, of course, uh, it was amazing, um, amazing eyeopening experience where I, I get to learn about how Korean residential architecture evolved.

36:02Um, but I was also able to learn how, um, the history of the nation and our family overlapped. Um, including why, how my mother died and, and it also happened to overlap with the assassination of, um, the dictator. They died on the same day, which led me to dig deeper into the history, modern history of Korea and its built environment.

36:35It's, um, very richly layered, um, research project far more than what I had expected. Um, and also because each time I would study anything about Korean architecture, it was just so fascinating. And the backstories of Korean architecture was so amazing, you know, um, just interwoven with people, stories, um, politics, and, um, power struggle, you know, within a household, two of a township, two of a country.

37:21Um, all of that just fascinated me, so I just kept at it, you know, after I came back, I was just not satisfied enough. So, um, I kept at it little by little, um, and, you know, between there, between, um, um, Korea and now, um, you know, we've grown a practice, raised two children. So little by little, I chipped at it, of course, it was not paying the bills, you know, uh, uh, after I came back. So, yeah, I just started to write, uh, write the stories that I've learned.

37:57And, um, now it has become, I've just recently completed the manuscript after 20 plus years of starting it. Wow. Congrats. Yeah. Congrats. And it's only first draft, um, and I asked myself, gosh, am I Korean enough to take this long? Because an average Korean would have been done in a year and a half, you know, maybe in eight months. And here I am. I'm just so embarrassed to say I have any Korean descent and have taken this long to write a manuscript.

38:29When you start with the full, full, bright program, you go to Korea, a couple of questions. What was your, your way of into the research? Was it talking to architecture offices, going to universities? Like, how do you, how do you, you go? Yeah. Sagan. Like, where did you go in Korea? Did you have specific places or cities? Or did you just go back to where you, you lived last? And also did, at that point, did you have, uh, strong connections to specific people there,

39:01like family, friends, or anything like that? Or were you kind of, quote, new, I guess, to Korea? It's very funny that you ask that because I didn't, so I did, luckily I did have family there, but nobody was, I mean, nobody was connected to architecture by any means. Right. And I was warned that Korea is a land of connections and they do not answer cold calls.

39:32And so how I, so that was a thing as part of full, bright program, you are supposed to identify your advisor in Korea, you know? Um, and because I didn't know anybody, um, and I was not in an academic environment, you know, I was, I was a burned out architect and therefore I didn't have a professor. I did not have a university connection to call a professor there. And so I went, not knowing anything other than I found a book on Korean architecture history

40:08written by professor Kim Dong-uk and, um, and I figured, I'd, I'd figure out how I would meet him, you know? Um, and how I got to meet him was very, another funny story. I was, um, so my husband, you know, who's also an architect came with me on this year long journey, and he got a teaching position, um, through a very serendipitous, um, kind of introduction.

40:41And the introduction was, um, made by, um, um, uh, Jo Min-suk, who was the founder of mass studies in, um, in Korea. So, and it was, oh boy, I don't want to get too complicated, but I, I had approached, um, Jo Min-suk at one of the lectures in New York city, and he introduced James, my husband, to Kyongi university. And then, um, there was a very funny way of meeting the professor that I needed to meet.

41:19Um, should I expand on it? I feel like I'm just, yeah, now I want to know.

41:25Um, okay. So, ha, a deeper story is that James also had a professor, uh, who was a great friend, who became a great friend of him, um, through, um, university at Buffalo architecture program. And, um, this professor in Taverner, he had gone to Korea a few years ahead of us. And he said, you know, you just have to watch out if you're working in Korea, just watch your pay paycheck because, you know, not every one of them, um, is honest and you just got

42:01to watch your back. And so that was in, in my back of my head. And so I was watching James's paycheck, uh, bank account, and one, one paycheck didn't come in on time. And so I was angry. And I said, you know, we like marched into the, the school's director's office. And I said, you know, just because we're Americans, you can't, don't you think that you're going to pull a fast one on us?

42:31And then I was just going on rant.

42:34And the director was very calm. And he said, okay, um, can you show me your, can you show me his, you know, like bank book? And I showed it to him and he cracked a smile and said, he saw my like handwritten notes of all of our, like bookkeeping the way, the way do we, we do in the United States. And he goes, you know, you don't need to do this. Anyway. So long story short, Korea has a very high tech way of, uh, you know, uh, keeping track

43:05of all your bank statements. And so he was like, you just stick it in the machine and blah, blah, blah. And, um, so that was like a culture shock number one. And then number two, he goes, can I help you with anything else? And I said, and coincidentally, coincidentally, um, Gyeonggi university where my husband was teaching happens to be the same university that this author slash professor on Korean history book, like the definitive book was teaching also.

43:38And so I asked Shibish Lee at the end of our conversation, if he could introduce me to the professor.

43:49That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a pivot coming guns a blazing. Oh, by the way, could you introduce me to this? And he did, I presume. Yes. And that was the start of, um, my network in, in Korea. And because James is, um, teaching position, I was invited by professors. It's like, Oh, we heard that you were studying like gender and domestic spaces and come and see, sit in my studio, come to our lecture, come to this.

44:20And so that's really how, yeah, I got connected through my American, Irish, German, American husband, I got connected into Korea. Nice. It works. It works. Um, and now let's give a shout out to our sponsors who support our show. The second studio is brought to you by chaos. They make award-winning design and visualization tools, and they're really pushing the boundaries with AI. As we all know, AI is shaking up the architecture and design world, and chaos is taking a responsible

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Korean Architecture and Modernity

45:51So I'm sure folks are also, people listening are also curious to know, so what were some of the unique or interesting, you know, or important architectural, what am I saying? Like the architectural qualities and architecture that seem to be deeply rooted in Korean culture, or were a result of Korean cultural, you know, shifts over the years? Maybe even, how does that compare to, I don't know, other forms of residential architecture,

46:27like in the United States, for example? Were there things that were, did you find that like, oh, this is actually quite similar to the United States? I'm guessing not. Or there were things that were very, very different? Let's see, Korea, what I learned is that it's the land of dichotomy, and irony, and, you know, so because there's a great sever that happened culturally, you know, with the Japanese occupation

46:58and, so Japanese occupation of Korea, and then Korean War, you know, there was great break between traditional way of living versus, you know, modern. So that happened so quickly, and so the key takeaway from the traditional homes were, you know, of course, sustainability, living with nature, indoor-outdoor transition, but what was really

47:33fascinating is that the traditional way of living was all about striking a balance, you know, striking a balance between the seemingly opposing forces, you know, there were his and her spaces because of law at that time during last dynasty of Chosun, you know, mid to upper, like the upper class had to practice gender segregation, which really has a trickle-down effect, you know,

48:05on a lower class as well, although lower class was not obligated to practice gender segregation. But, so long story short, traditional architecture has this great efforts to strike a balance, you know, between man-made versus nature, indoor-outdoor, men or women. And so that was really fascinating to me.

48:37And then we leap over the colonial period and the sever with the war, the violence of the war. I feel like the balance was just completely thrown out because, you know, people are trying to survive. And then with the dictatorship, military dictatorship, who was driven to turn Korea, you know, from destitute of the war to modern society in one generation, this hyper-fast pali-pali, hurry-hurry culture was created.

49:18And so my mind is, like, really jarring going from Hanok, you know, traditional wood homes with clay tiles to these mega, you know, 50-story apartment building. And so my book is about bridging that through, like, personal stories. Yeah, so, and then how does it compare, how do I bring that to my practice in New York and Hudson Valley? It's really hard because courtyards, you know, Korean, the traditional way of living was a lot of indoor-outdoor courtyards.

49:56And there's no need to create a courtyard in the United States, it feels. But there are other elements that I hope to bring into my architecture. I haven't really pushed our clients yet because I was also, you know, previously, last 20 years, I feel like I was in a survival mode, you know, trying to juggle starting our firm from nothing and juggling a fixer-upper, two kids, and trying to write a book, you know, in a language that I...

50:30Yeah, you weren't busy at all.

50:33So, yeah, I am definitely in that transitional period where I'm, okay, so now I feel like I've digested, like, deep research material, and how do I turn that into my own voice. Yeah, so that's my next chapter. Interesting, got it. So, the transition from traditional to, I forget the word you used, kind of like the more fast-paced approach to things,

51:04when does that occur in the timeline in Korea? 1960s through 1980s, yeah, rapid modernization is that, yeah, just after Korean War, a few years after Korean War, yeah, the military dictatorship occurs. It's really interesting because, you know, after the Korean War, U.S. did promote, you know, democracy in South Korea,

51:39while, you know, North was, quote-unquote, assisted by Russian and communism, right? But South Korea was supported by the U.S., you know, financially, you know, just in all aspects. But the point that I'm making is that it did have a, it did start out with a democratic president, uh, uh, but very corrupt, um, and then, and then an interim, um, president, um, uh, the name slips me, uh, was ineffective,

52:17and Park Jung-hee then was a two-star general, and he got fed up with inefficiency of Korean government, and he steps in, and he rules, um, I think, um, gosh, um, uh, oh, uh, close to two decades, I think, um, Wow. Yeah, and, um, and that's when this fast, driven, um, economic-oriented mindset occurs. What, what would, what he did improve was that before then, you know, many of, like, majority of Koreans

52:55had, like, a slave mentality because they were have-and-have-nots, and the, the aristocrats really suppressed the lower class. And so what he really flipped was that, um, yeah, he said, we're getting out of the slave mentality, everybody can make a new future, you know, for themselves in this modern economy. Um, so that was an interesting, positive outcome, yeah. But, but then again, he also got sucked back into the old, um, system of Chebol, there's these mega corporations, because he realized

53:29that he couldn't move forward without certain cooperation from them. So it's a very interesting, intertwined story, yeah. Yeah. That was, was part of the shift toward this, um, more economically driven way of existing culture, but also, let's say, the architecture, was it to do, is, is it because there was a kind of like an obsession or more of a focus on just, quote, progress, efficiency, advancement, like,

54:00those words as opposed to, and then therefore an abandonment of everything previous, like, just look forward, build faster, taller, and that's like the goal, rather than reflecting and saying, maybe there's something from the, the past or the current, I guess, way of, of living and having architecture that is of value. Because I do see in other places, other cultures, other times, there's, there can be a tendency to just like, just forget whatever happened in the past, because we're going to focus on the future, and oftentimes, you know, to, to, to, to the detriment in, in, in some way.

54:34Um, yet again, a really, uh, excellent question. Um, the, believe it or not, the dictatorship had the foresight, you know, to create, like, a historic preservation, um, protocol, but it wasn't really, you know, as, um, advanced as what we know now, you know, um, old needs to be, new or adaptive reuse, you know, they were not there yet. Um, right. But they did understand the importance of, of at least, um, preserving what had survived the war. Um, but at the same

55:12time, in the areas, um, where they needed to re rejuvenate and, um, repair, they didn't have much time to think about architecture per se, in most cases, in most cases, um, there is an interesting side story of, um, an architect, a modern, uh, one of the modern architecture pioneers in South Korea, um, Kim Soo-geun, uh, and Kim Jung-up, um, Kim Soo-geun, uh, boy, I'm sorry,

55:46I'm getting into deep details. Um, he did work very closely with the military dictatorship and he, he, and another, um, politician. He had a support of a politician, Kim Jong-il, who really, um, supported the development of Korean voice in modern architecture. Um, and he took it to a certain level. Um, and then of course he died, uh, too early. Um, and, uh, the, the pioneers of that era,

56:19you know, took it to a certain level. And then now Korean, there's always a debate, you know, whether Korea should have a modern voice in architecture or do we just go for just universal modern, you know, architecture. There's, I think there's a constant debate on that. And, uh, and did I answer your question because now I was just going into, I don't remember, I was, I was fascinated with what you were saying regardless. Um, but I think it's, um, this kind of touches on a broader,

56:52you know, conversation that is a challenging one in, in architecture and probably always will always exist is sort of this wrestling between, um, on the one hand, kind of like globalization versus the local, a universal way of thinking, doing things versus local or culturally specific. And like, how do you, how do you do that? Like, that's a, that's a big question. Like, how do you do that successfully in a way that's meaningful and honest and not, not, um, not shallow? Uh,

57:28it's, it's a, it's a, it's a weird one. It's a, it's very challenging one. I think in general. Right. Right. Because like, how do you translate the, the swooping tiled roofs of Korean Hanok into modern language? Um, um, it is, it is very challenging. And, and what's so fascinating is because it's a visual language in the end, right? Like architecture, um, is visual language. And so when you mix like, um, minimalist lines of modern architecture plus Asian materiality, it can always,

58:02I'm not, it can often turn into Japandia. And so it's really hard to pull back from that, you know? So, um, um, or like Asian architecture plus, um, minimalism. Yeah. Often looks, ends up looking like Japanese architecture, you know? So like, how do we, because we know like Jap, Jap, Japanese have defined that.

58:33And so ahead of time, I think it's also, it's hard to not see that and, and create something different, you know? Um, so it's a really interesting design challenge. And, um, but what's, uh, what's really fascinating is that when I look at more current work coming out of Korea, South Korea, is that they, yes, they are definitely designing to more universal, um, um, modern architecture language, but they're

59:08incorporating, you know, regional or site specific needs and therefore it, by default, it becomes something unique. Um, and maybe because I prefer bold architecture and that's all I see. I do see a lot of bold architecture coming out of Korea and I love the diversity that we're seeing. Um, and so, um, um, right now, so, uh, another thing that I am working on is, um, uh, an exhibition on Korean

59:40contemporary architecture, uh, with my associates at, uh, Korean, um, Architects Association of New York, uh, Connie K-A, I'm sorry, K-A-A-N-Y.org. Um, so we are pulling together, um, an exhibition on Korean contemporary architecture, um, right now. And, um, the speed of evolvement, um, the speed of things that are happening there is quite impressive. Um, I mean,

1:00:16so, looking, looking at, um, what they're doing, um, and how they're working in such a confined land, you know, Korea, South Korea, you know, half of the peninsula is very small. Um, and the, the opportunities seem like, you know, big opportunities seems to be going to a lot of, uh, foreign architects. However, whatever opportunities that are left, you know, for Korean architects who are practicing there, I'm really, really impressed, you know, with what they're

1:00:51doing. And so, um, uh, we are, you know, seeking, um, new talents, you know, to be, to be introduced, you know, in other words, we're, we're putting together the portfolio of the country to be exhibited, um, in New York in near future. And so, uh, if any one is listening and who's interested in, yeah, I would love to learn more about their work. Um, and so it really, you know, what,

1:01:22it's in summary, what was, um, fascinating is that, so I abandoned Korean culture period, you know, a hundred percent abandonment. And then I go back. I never expected Korea to become my inspiration. Um, but just seeing how they've risen out of poverty, you know, war stricken poverty, um, to where they are now, um, I am really, really inspired. And I think, um, with limited resources,

1:01:58they're really, their solutions are so ingenious, you know, like for example, one cafe, there's a, um, um, really fun cafe called, um, I think it was in Korean, it was like, um, Han Yak Bang, which is like a Chinese medicine, um, cafe. And, um, they couldn't afford storefront. Right. And so what they did was create a time capsule cafe in an alleyway, like no street presence.

1:02:33Like, how do you know that they even exist, but they did it to a, at such a meticulous, um, detail and such with such an ingenuity, they created like an old, old style cafe, uh, that takes you back in time in this tiny little alleyway that it became so popular that they had to grow across the alleyway to upstairs. And, um, yeah, so I love stories like that. Yeah.

Personal Healing and Writing a Memoir

1:02:59Did you find that this, this long journey you've been on of, of, of learning more about Korea, Korean architecture to provide some, some kind of like personal healing? And could you imagine, you know, your life, if you hadn't gotten Fulbright and gone on this journey? Oh yeah. Um, healing part, there were definitely a lot of healing. Um, uh, but it was complicated,

1:03:31complicated. Um, you know, just, I had to face a lot of, um, family trauma when, when I was doing the research and how it was intertwined with Korean history and what, what the country went through. And there was also, you know, personal family, you know, a trauma on a personal level that I had to reconcile and trying to understand why, you know, Korean culture is the way it is today. Um, so there was

1:04:04that aspect, um, which is very complex. Um, and then the, um, oh, and I'm sorry. The second part of your question was, um, Oh, it was more like, you know, could you even imagine like if you hadn't done Fulbright and then gone on this journey to, to, to learn more about that place, like you would, you would be in a completely different, you know, place, um, you know, in your life than, than we were are now, I would imagine.

1:04:36Right. I, because I've been trying to chip away at this journey for so long, I can't imagine my life, um, without it. Um, it has, it has multi layers of, um, beautiful lessons. You know, for example, um, when I first became a mother, I was having a really hard time, you know, juggling work and, and parenthood, um, you know, starting a firm with no money. And it was just, I was having a really hard

1:05:11time. And, but because of this book project, um, I signed up for a memoir class. It was just one day. It was just one day. That was all I could commit to write one day memoir class. And when I heard everybody read their, their excerpts, I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, raising a family domestic life, um, is so hard. And, you know, the, so everybody had some kind of family related trauma that they were

1:05:45trying to work out. And that's when I decided deliberately, I'm going to be a happy mother, you know? So like, even that, um, I think helped our like current family, you know, life just because of this project. Um, and I also joke with my family that, you know, because trying to do it all in last 20 somewhat years, um, you know, I've like, I've exhausted myself and this book is helping me just compose a coherent sentence,

1:06:19you know, like just going back to like the basics of clear communication, you know? Um, yeah. Yeah. So that has helped me a lot in so many ways. Yeah. Not just be so much beyond Korean architecture. Yeah. Right. Right. What, um, uh, well, not to go back to work too much, but you, you completed the first draft. Do you know when you're, do you have a deadline for yourself to, to have the final draft? Oh, yes. Um, so where I am right now. So I, I, luckily there was a, a literary agent who became very interested in the book.

1:07:01And he was very interested in, in the, uh, cross between, you know, personal stories and, um, architecture. Um, and so his interest got me, it, uh, it, it pushed me to finish my manuscript because I just didn't know how to end it. Um, but so he asked me to, um, see the manuscript and I, so I had to kind of rush it and, you know, last few months.

1:07:31And, um, and I was like, Oh, this feels dangerous. I, I know you're supposed to sit on your first draft. You can't show it to anybody, but anyway, so I sent it to him and he's like, Hmm, I'm not sure that the last third is too much architecture. Anyway. So his advice, his advice was, okay. So, um, just, you know, work with an editor who can shape this into like publish ready.

1:08:04And then approach again, you know, like send out the book proposals again. Um, so one of our clients, um, she edits books from start to finish. So I have a deadline set with her to get it to her, you know, first of January. It's knock on wood. So that's my next step. And, um, I may lose my patient and just self publish it, but I don't know, who knows, who knows? I have faith if, yeah, I have faith that it will land in the right hands. Yeah.

1:08:38That's amazing. That's awesome. And, um, you know, I, I've probably said on here before, but I, I find it remarkable that when people are able to, to write coherently and, you know, at a high degree, any long format. The production, uh, is for, for sure something like you're producing, cause it's not something I could ever do. Um, would you ever consider moving back to Korea or doing, or trying to do more work in Korea whilst living there or not there?

Curating Contemporary Korean Architecture

1:09:07You know, um, again, another excellent, excellent question. Um, gosh, I, a few, maybe even like eight years ago, I thought I would retire on Jeju Island. It's such an idyllic place in many aspects. Um, but they've also botched a lot of the natural beauty, you know, the, these ambitious developers, just, um, ad hoc development. And so when I was there last, I'm like, there's no way I can retire here.

1:09:40Um, and the other interesting empathetic view that I got was that, um, um, you know, when I started this research, I thought, Oh, maybe I will get to do some projects in Korea. And now that I understand what limited land they have and, um, how it is difficult to land a commission in Korea. Um, I would, I would prefer not to, um, get in the way of my colleagues who are trying to do their own practice.

1:10:16Um, and, and just, I have plenty of opportunities here, you know, I could with, um, maybe in a few years of like deliberately developing my own architectural voice. I, I am confident that I will get plenty of commission outside of Korea. And so therefore I don't need to try to land a commission there, you know, and I would rather have, I would rather have my colleagues who are living and practicing there to really raise the bar of Korean architecture there.

1:10:51Yeah. They don't need me. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really cool perspective and mindset to have. And that, that I guess, you know, lines, lines up directly with the exhibition, um, which by the way, uh, let us know about it. We can, you know, do a post and whatever, but so that exhibition, do you have, uh, have you made the selections of the architects? How many of them, when is it going to happen? Like, tell us a bit more about that. Uh, where we are with that process. Um, so far we've, um, gathered the architects that are quote unquote visible, right?

1:11:24Um, on the, on social media or magazines. And, um, so I've, uh, with my, um, colleagues at, um, a K and Y, uh, Korean Architects Association of New York. Um, we've compiled a pitch deck, um, like a little mini brochure. Um, and, um, so far I've written. I've written the introductory paragraph, what this means, you know, why observing Korean contemporary architects would be meaningful in the future.

1:11:57Um, and, uh, we've, we've gathered a good number of farms and their portfolio. Um, but we could certainly use more. Um, and it's just, it's really, like, as I said, um, to my colleagues, it's like, how, like I, every time I think, okay, I think I've covered just about every talent that I could find on Korea. Another amazing talent. I, you know, we discover, I'm like, oh my gosh, how are we going to represent everybody?

1:12:30And so we're talking about digital screens and such. And, um, uh, right now, so I'm putting together the pitch deck and the cover letter while my colleagues are beginning to search for, um, galleries in New York. And, um, but we have all intentions to make it a traveling show, you know, from here to Washington DC, to LA, and then hopefully to Europe, knock on wood.

1:13:00Um, but it takes money, right? And so we do need to meet the right sponsors. And I think it's the, the project itself is quite exciting. Um, and so we hope to draw a lot of, um, excited, um, sponsors and, um, and this will be the first knock on wood, um, that we do and just keep on, um, having more exhibitions, you know, at least once a year. Um, and so to answer your question, when do we expect this, um, exhibition to happen?

1:13:34Um, our president has a very ambitious schedule, but I am more on an American schedule.

1:13:46So I'm just really, um, it, it will happen if we have the funds. Um, yeah. Yeah. So hopefully next year, our president is hoping end of this year, but I think more realistic is next year. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I mean, I think I was, I'm kind of laughing because, you know, the, the, the schedule thing makes me chuckle because that's, you experienced this for sure, you know? Right. But, but, um, I feel like as architects ever, a lot of times people are setting aggressive schedules and we're like, no, that's not going to happen in the architecture space.

1:14:23You know? Oh, construction done by the state. Like, no, not even close to being realistic. Right. Um, but, uh, um, so then is the criteria for the architects who are going to be, uh, contributing to that exhibition, is it that they are, uh, living in and doing work in Korea? Is it that they're just from Korea or is that a pretty loose set of, of, of, of, like, what is the criteria? Um, um, the criteria, um, you know, it's funny. Uh, we were having lunch with, um, one of the, the veterans, uh, and in Korean architecture, um, professor Kim Jong Sung.

1:15:00And, um, he said, so are you going to let old folks like us get included? Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I would say, yes, the, what we're trying to portray is, um, you know, uh, a wide range of works that are being done by Koreans, Korean architects practicing in Korea. That's our current, um, mode, uh, who, who are the voices of Korean architecture?

1:15:36You know, so, you know, we, we, we said, how about say, uh, Korean Americans, uh, who are educated out, you know, I mean, actually many Korean architects are educated abroad and they come back and, and, um, to work in Korea. Um, so what if, um, um, and a firm who is more actively doing work abroad, but has a project built in Korea?

1:16:06Um, I would say why not. Um, but you know, it's, it's not just my, my opinion, but, um, you know, our colleagues as well. Um, but in general, yeah, we want to show where Korea has come, how, how far they've come since 1960s, you know? Um, yeah, I think it's really cool. And I was just thinking if I have recently, uh, seen an exhibition or, or anything like that, that focuses, um, in that way, I mean, um, culturally, a cultural focus, you know, for Korea, for, I don't know, for Mexico, for China, for like whatever place.

1:16:48And I don't, I think my most recent experience was, uh, we were in Copenhagen, um, last winter and in Copenhagen, they have a, an arch, there's an architecture museum, galleries, museum. And there was a segment about Danish architecture design, which would make sense because you're in Copenhagen, but it, it was interesting to see like a more like that, a focused lens about architecture design, but for, you know, with a specific place and it would be really cool. And maybe we have, they have this.

1:17:18And it was a small space, but it was fairly dense. It was dense. Yeah. So you could see, you know, models, pictures, video drawings, and just like really, really packed with stuff. And from a, an outsider who's, you know, does not know the place or, or the culture so much, it was very interesting to kind of see, you know, the visual evolution of, of the culture and the country. Yeah. And they kind of extract as best as we could. Right. What are the, what are the things that, that are like identifiers of, in that case, Danish architecture and design, whether they be visual things like you kind of talked about, or is it more like there's some underlying philosophy that seems to be common.

1:17:58But I think it's super fascinating and it'd actually be cool to have a larger exhibition with a bunch of different cultures, like a world's fair, but for architects, maybe we don't have that. I don't know. Right. Yes. I think it's, I think it's such a live topic. Right. Current topic. Like, does regionalism in modern architecture matter, you know, like, does it, or cultural impact matter? Well, this is a funny story.

1:18:29A client of ours from Kenya hired us because, you know, we're MWBE. And I was able to design modern architecture with African voice, you know, like the African geometric shapes were so much easier to integrate that into modern architecture. And so that was an amusing exercise.

1:19:01Um, but yeah, how, and I, this is something that Koreans are grappling with right now, you know, does it matter? Does Korean specifically Korean voice in modern architecture matter? Or do we just design to the global standard and, and just do something unique, you know, um, with a unique idea? Um, yeah, so that's, that's where we are. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that's just cool. I'm looking forward to, to when that exhibition happens.

1:19:32Um, it's a, it's a really, really good question. And I think you're right. It's, it's certainly timely. Um, you know, the last, uh, actually it's pretty recent, maybe the last only 10, 15 years, there's been maybe 20, there's been a swing kind of, uh, toward the newer generations. And now realizing and understanding and being interested in the culture that they have descended from, I think for a period of time, um, that it was like a rich, uh, actually not dissimilar to your story in a certain way, like a rejection of that culture, especially I'm thinking from an American lens.

1:20:08Cause that's my experience, right. Uh, for my family, like rejecting that whole culture in part, because it took a lot of work for, for whatever people to come to the United States, to come to America and to assimilate as one, I, one idea that's embedded in this. Right. But now, again, now many last decade or more, it's like, well, no, there's actually something about that past lineage. That's of, of interest, first of all, but of value. I, it's a great question. I, if I had to, my guess, or my belief is that I, I don't feel like just fully embracing a, a, the, uh, the, um, the global set of criteria or the global way of doing things.

1:20:50I don't know if that's really the path we all want to go down. It feels like a strange things to do. I, I think some embracing of, of, uh, local for lack of a better word, it's a, is a good thing. Yeah. And I think it also goes back to the question of modernism, you know, in architecture specifically is like, do every culture and countries have to do modernist architecture or the same type of, or, or, or maybe they do because, you know, the world is, is modernized, but what is their own definition of modernism? Right.

1:21:20Of modern architecture versus the generic definition or global definition of, of modern architecture. Right. And I think that's kind of, and then, you know, the internet and social media and all of that is not really helping us finding like interesting answers. Like we are kind of all playing on the same field. It can flatten. Yeah. Right. Right. Which reminded me of your interview of professor Anna Duran. Right. She mentioned how she, the client rejected their work because it was not modern enough.

1:21:51That just made me so mad. Of course, you know, like trying to express regional sensitivity and sensitivity to environment and nature and culture, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's just, I think it's just, um, ego driven reaction perhaps, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think also in some of those cases, like the, the clients in that example, or, you know, whoever that is, they're like more concerned with, um, presenting themselves or the city or their legacy as an ex-politician.

1:22:25As like someone who is, is advancing things or we're making a statement to the world that our place is also modern and can be part of the, the global arena of whatever. And they kind of don't see again, the value of, well, maybe there's something local again, local that, that should be the through line. Uh, but again, I do think the younger generations in general are interested in that. So hopefully that will trickle up or down. I don't know, to, to, to everyone else, you know, involved with the decision making power.

1:22:59Keeping fingers crossed. Yeah. Um, so the, uh, I feel like we keep talking for the next three days. Thank you. But, uh, the, as you probably know, the, the last question we like to ask, uh, is sometimes the most challenging and it's, what is your favorite building?

The Sosewan Garden Experience

1:23:17Uh, well, you know, in my younger days, I was really drawn to. Ego driven design. But, um, since my trip to Korea, um, and I've had the chance to reflect on it. Um, so say one, um, is it, uh, is my favorite architecture meets nature. They call it Sosewan Garden, but it has three very modest structure on there.

1:23:49And that's where actually I got to learn where, how our family landed on Jeju Island as well.

1:24:01And so let's see. And this is a perfect example of how my journey was interwoven with Korean history and made me realize of my identity and roots, right? And so Sosewan is a famous place among Koreans. It's a, let's see, has two pavilions and like a very modest, like a residential building perched.

1:24:32And these buildings are, I'm sorry, the small residential is perched on a hill while the two other pavilions, one pavilion is really nestled in the valley. And it's a really beautiful, like a subtle man-made meets nature, very modest, very, very modest expression, you know, of architecture and nature. And it, this, the story of how, what led me to there is just, you know, everybody's like, oh, you should just go see it.

1:25:11It's famous. You know, it, you cannot study Korean architecture without studying Sosewan. And so I went there and, and as I was sitting in the middle pavilion, which is fascinating because it was just one room pavilion with heated floor, which of course was not active. So it's right now it's just open to public and it's like a living museum. So it's one room pavilion with the one solid back behind you, which kind of anchors you.

1:25:43And then three sides are, you know, paper lined, lattice doors, and they open up and they, they open up like wings. And so during summertime, you know, this, this little compound was created after a massacre that had happened. And I don't know, it's called literary purge, literary purge, it's like the execution of the educated trying to cleanse the power, or reestablish the power structure in government.

1:26:19Anyway, so that was one of, I think it was like the third literary purge that happened in Korea. Anyway, so as a result of that, the horrified scholars, they flee to remote places. And this was one of the structures that was built as a result of that. And so they used this pavilion as a way to gather scholars to debate, you know, the morality of government, write poetry, just exchange ideas.

1:26:53It's just, it's a beautiful, you know, purpose behind it. So a place of healing also. And so when I was there, yeah, I got to sit. And as I was typing my notes in, in my computer, I got to interact with the locals who had come to visit the place. And that was a funny, very funny encounter, which I write about in my, in my book. And, and then after they did, they went home, I got to sit there and really, it started to rain.

1:27:29And, and so that was the first time I discovered the invisible layers that is integrated into Korean traditional architecture. It's that all of a sudden the space, you know, it, it seemed like the space was just infinite, but all of a sudden the pearls of, of raindrops started to come down from the edges of these tile roofs. And all of a sudden I became aware of the space, you know, the boundaries of this building that I didn't, I was not aware.

1:28:02And I was just so blown away. So, sorry for my long explanation. That's amazing. I love that. So dumb question. How do you spell that though? Because I know people are going to try and look this up. Yeah, it is a complicated, let me look, the, the complicated, um, spelling, uh, uh, uh, hold on a second. So say one garden, uh, hold on.

1:28:34It's S O S W A E W O N.

1:28:43I would have completely not gotten that right. So, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Uh, that's, that's, that's, that's incredible. That's incredible. Um, Juhi, this was so cool. Uh, thank you so much for making the time on a Friday. Is it Friday? Thank goodness. It's Friday. On a Friday. Uh, this was truly a pleasure. Let's keep in touch. Um, please do let us know about everything you have going on. Um, you know, whatever's happening first, but this sounds like, uh, maybe the exhibit, whatever it is. And, um, and yeah.

1:29:13That's, this has been great. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I, I just cannot tell you how much I appreciate your program. It's just, it really satiates my, um, yeah. Art as an architect, you know, of course, like you, we work too many hours and do we want to listen to more architectural discussion, but your program is just so satiating and so enriching. I have to say. Oh, that's very kind of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening to this week's episode.

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