#520 - Tyler Freres, Vice President of Sales at Freres Engineered Wood

Introducing Tyler Freres

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bordel-René. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. And today, our guest is Tyler Freres. Tyler is the VP of Sales at Freres Engineered Wood, a company based in Oregon. Yes, and they produce engineered wood products. And we talked with Tyler about their company. They've been around for, I forget how many decades. Over 100 years. A long, long, long time. Family-owned company. And they historically, as you'll hear, produced plywood.

0:33And now, in the more recent years, started producing mass plywood panels and mass plywood products. And this is something we learned about recently. They have had a number of very successful projects using this product. So we talked with Tyler all about that, how they came around to this idea, the performance aspects of it, how it compares to CLT and other things, what projects they're using it in, the capacity that they have, where it's going in the future, all that fun stuff.

1:04Also, I should say that we actually talked with him off-air at the end about more resilient design and fire resiliency, seismic, wind loads, and all that stuff. And they are also doing a bunch of extensive testing in that regard and getting very positive results. So I think anyone who's doing work in those types of places or interested in those types of structures, this is still a, it's definitely a product and a system to consider using. Sponsors. Spreadsheets can't bring your designs to life, but Programma can.

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2:38So you get to design with more freedom, create stunning visuals, and stay in control of your work. If you want to see what that looks like, tap the Chaos link in our show notes. This is The Second Studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Tyler.

Century of Oregon Timber

2:49Here we go.

Century of Oregon Timber

2:50Hi, my name is Tyler Ferreres. I'm Vice President of Sales here at Ferreres Engineered Wood. We're a 105-year-old company, so always had our roots in wood products here in the San Yom Canyon of Oregon. It's a very timber-rich region with a primary species of Douglas fir, which is what we've worked in for most of our existence. My grandfather started the company in 1922. It was in a small sawmill up in the hills of the San Yom Canyon.

3:21And then in the 1950s, we moved to our current location. And with the advent of veneer and engineered panel products, we moved to veneer processing, then into creating engineered wood for other third-party producers in the area. Then in the late 90s, we purchased a small plywood plant out of bankruptcy and started producing our first touch with the final customer, making commodity-grade plywood for the housing market.

3:52So could you repeat that last part, first touch, commodity-grade, what does that mean?

4:00Before that, everything we produced was an input to another producer to create a product. Like we would sell our veneer to plywood plants, our density-rated veneers to LVL producers. So we were just an intermediate in the marketplace. But when we started creating plywood or manufacturing plywood, that was when we could have a branded plywood panel that we'd ship to the Northeast or any other portion of the United States. So a real consumer product at that point, as opposed to an intermediate product.

4:33Got it. And I'm not so familiar with Oregon, but is where you're located more in the south? Like we have a colleague, a friend who lives in Roseburg, and I know, I think there's a big lumber scene down there as well, down in the southern part of Oregon. Is that where you are as well? No, we're further north. We're just east of Salem, which is the capital of Oregon. We're kind of ideally situated to the Cascade Mountain Range. So being about 30 miles east of Salem, it puts us right in the foothills of the Cascades,

5:05which is some of the finest growing ground for timber on earth. So we're a little bit more rural. We're actually at the east end of the canyon, so kind of a dead end before you get to a whole lot of federal ownership. The next town is really from Idina, which is east of us, is Sisters, Oregon, which is where you start to get into the high desert areas. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Okay, so you were in the story of you purchased, I think you said you purchased a plywood company that was going bankrupt,

5:38and that was your first kind of foray into an end product of sorts. Does the company continue to evolve after that point? Sure, yeah. We always say that innovation is our tradition, so we've been evolving ever since. But from purchasing the plywood plant, which most people considered to be a very unwise decision at that period of time, because OSB was really taking over a lot of the panel products in the U.S., particularly for residential construction. But we've been very successful in that.

Biomass Cogeneration Plant

6:09Since then, we've invested heavily in cogeneration. So we produce about 7.2 megawatts of electricity off of wood waste residuals, biomass, but it also provides power and heat to our facilities. It's enough to power about 5,000 ohms in the local area. Or another way to look at it is that we produce more power than we consume as a company annually. So that's really cool. And how does that work? Well, you know, it's actually very old traditional technology.

6:42It's essentially like you would see with any steam engine. So we burn residual wood waste. About 50% of that is actually urban waste. And put it in a traditional boiler system. So it's 100,000 pound per hour boiler. So we burn it, take the water to superheated steam, and then we put it through a turbine generator, produce electricity down to the heat point that we need in order to produce,

7:12to use the heat for our facilities. And it's really a closed-loop system. So it's very, very efficient. So first power and then heat for our facilities until the steam is almost water again. And then we just keep it as a closed-loop system. Cool. Cool. I mean, that's pretty interesting. And how did that idea come about? Well, you know, as with many things, there was a financial interest in it. We produce wood residuals, of course,

7:44because particularly the bark can be used for things like beauty bark for housing, right? You know, anything that you have in your garden and your landscaping and whatnot. So we do produce that as well. But the bark also has a lot of BTUs that can really help create energy. So during that period of time, it was about 2006, Oregon had a program called the Business Energy Tax Credit, in which they were providing a tax credit for about 50% of the overall project cost.

8:15So the project being about a $24 million project, it allowed us about a $12 million tax break. That's huge. That's nice. That's a good incentive.

8:28I mostly had first heard of you folks as a mass plywood panel company, MPP. That's like the term that I've mostly heard. Today, is that really, is that like your flagship product or products? Is that mostly what you do or behind the scenes? Maybe not behind the scenes, but for you, is it actually a much broader spectrum of things? And mass plywood is simply one of those, you know, things that you offer. It's really just, it's actually a small portion of what we do right now,

9:02but we're hoping it turns into a much, much larger company and business defining product. So really by volume, our largest product is veneer that we still sell to outside producers. And then it's plywood, then our residuals. So bark dust, hog fuel, chips, sawdust, those types of products. Mass plywood is right now about 10% of what we do, which is nice.

9:34I mean, it's a value-added product. It's very unique. So we have a special place in the industry and it's looking like it's turning into a much more consistent industry as well. So it's a good way for us to take the highest value veneers that we have that are the most density rated, the highest structurally performing, but also those that have an appearance quality and utilize that ourselves for a little bit of a higher value.

Manufacturing Mass Plywood Panels

9:59Can you explain for our listeners who are not familiar with what mass plywood is, what it is and how it's made? Sure. So the closest equivalent, of course, is cross-lamited timber, which we are certified as a cross-lamited timber panel. Traditionally in Europe, cross-lamited timber is a lumber-based product. But our particular innovation is taking our veneers, which are typical at a one-eighth inch thickness, laminating those into an LVL or structural composite lumber so we can get very consistent,

10:36very accurate design values in both the major and minor force direction. So both with your long span and also across the width of your panel. And we do that in every one-inch lamella that we use to construct our mass timber. So we have several different grades. 2.0E, which is the E is a measure of your long span bending stiffness. So 2.0E is our highest grade. It's an all-parallel panel.

11:06We have a 1.9E, which has a single crossband. So it starts to build additional strength into the minor force direction of the panel. And then we have our really more used panels, our 1.6E and our 1.0E. And they have very particular uses within the mass timber industry. But we essentially take all those different grades. And based upon the use within a building, we will build up a large platform for use that we then run through a CNC machine and create the individual customizable parts

11:42for a building construction. So we can essentially make a mass timber panel anywhere from 2 inches thick to 24 1⁄2 inches thick at 12 feet wide and 48 feet long. So a very, very large block of wood. Oh, my gosh. So this is a dumb question. But, like, how much does something like that weigh? It's got to weigh a ton. Yeah, I mean, really, if you want to go for that type of solid panel, it's – I mean,

12:12obviously, you make it 24 inches thick and, you know, 12 feet wide, 48, there's not many uses for that. And it becomes a large panel. But it's about 30,000 pounds. Yeah. Wow. That's cool. So, okay. So I'm going to kind of go back to some of the details you said to make sure that I understood it and that our audience does as well. So the different ratings has to do with the strength, but also you were saying the strength in one direction versus two. Is that right? Correct. So the 1.6 or the 1. whatever ratings that are – I guess have a lower value in the long

12:50direction but a greater value in the other direction, are those more used for, like, floors and walls as opposed to, I don't know, beams, I guess? Yeah. No, you're going right in the correct direction. So our 1.90 material is, you know, roughly equivalent to the same design values as you would typically see in a glue lamp. Okay. So it has the same type of application. The only difference is, well, glue lamps are typically in plank orientation for their

13:21construction. We're in joist orientation or in a vertical orientation for the use of our panels. Got it. For a beam or column application. Now, the 1.6 E material exceeds the performance of a typical cross-laminated timber and the long-span bending. So we can get a lot longer span with much less wood than you would typically use with a lumber-based panel. So just as an equivalent, our 5-inch panel can get you 15 to 16 feet in span based upon

13:54the loading. But it takes really a 5-ply or almost a 7-inch panel for a cross-laminated timber to get to the same span. Interesting. And we're talking about, generally speaking, a live load on top of that?

14:09Yeah. Yes. Okay. 5 inches. But the 1.0 E material is actually kind of interesting because you would think that there's not that many applications for a panel that has a dual span. But the particular projects that we're doing with this have been very successful. So right now we're making a project for a very good client down in Oakland named OhWow, in which they're specializing in creating multi-story, multi-family at a very cost-effective rate.

14:40Oh, yeah. No, they're really good people. But their particular use is as a point-supported slab. So essentially, you've got a column support on each corner of the panel as well as mid-span. And then there's no beam going across at all. Oh, interesting. So the panel is essentially the entire floor element and self-supporting. And it really helps with construction because, well, one, you have an unlimited ceiling height. So any sort of mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, you can integrate into the structure however you want.

15:14You can also adjust the ceiling heights very easily because you only have a column to adjust. You don't have very complicated connections with the beam to column. So it makes it very quick to actually install these things. And our 5-inch panel and 6-inch panel can get to a 12-foot minor span and a 16-foot major span. So essentially, our 48-foot panel has three columns going along the length of it. And, you know, of course, just two going across the width for a pretty decent room size for most construction.

15:49Yeah. And that really exceeds the performance of any other cross-laminated timber out there in that particular application. Yeah, that's perfect for, like, multifamily. And so, you know, you had mentioned a couple times that what you guys produce, I'm probably using the wrong terms, but the mass plywood approach is stronger per depth compared to a cross-laminated timber because basically you're using the individual layers, the veneers, consistently all the way through as opposed to using larger chunks of lumber.

16:25Is that what it is? Yeah, there's actually several reasons in there, but let's say number one is the laminating effect. So if you break wood down into much smaller constituent parts and you're able to characterize what that wood looks like and how it performs, then you laminate like performing material to it, you end up exceeding the performance of wood itself. Right. So you think about, like, a tree standing in the forest, it's going to have a stiffness value of somewhere between 1.4 to 1.6 E for a dug fur.

16:59And it's going to be 120 feet tall and it's swaying in the forest. So it has a significant amount of stiffness. Well, like I mentioned, we can start creating products that are 2.0 E and 1.9 E. So the stiffness is dramatically improved. The other thing that happens is that when we take this through our entire process, we essentially get about what's called 6% to 8% additional densification just due to compression of the material with the resins. And then lastly, if you think about a piece of lumber, you're going to have a defect go through that piece of lumber in some format, right?

17:35A knot that goes through the entire board that weakens you the entire structural performance. Since we're essentially taking 1 1⁄8 inch feet and laminating those together and randomizing the defects across the board, I mean, we're essentially eliminating the impact of defects because they're only 1 1⁄8 of an inch thick.

Developing the Patent

17:55So when did the idea of a mass plywood approach come in? Because I've not heard of it outside of fairly recently and it being associated specifically with you. Are you like the only ones? Like who created this idea? And how did the idea come around, actually? Yeah, no, it's kind of an interesting story. Back in 2015, we've been really feeling the impacts of foreign imported material into the U.S. market and it's been going on for quite a while.

18:28And for the most part, people don't know where their wood products come from. So whether it's from China, Russia, Canada, Brazil, any other South American country, it's not like they have a preference to buy U.S. commodity plywood. And so at the same time, our state and federal government have consistently reduced the amount of timber harvest in Oregon. And so what we were seeing were escalating log costs with a declining margin on our typical commodity products.

19:05So we had an opportunity to travel to Europe with Oregon State University to do an exploratory on what cross-limated timber looked like and how it was manufactured. And so it was my brother and I that went over there in 2015. And we essentially returned with the idea that taking the concept that if LVL can can outperform a standard lumber panel in a very technical application, then we should be able to create the same type of product out of our veneer that will outperform a cross-limated timber panel.

19:39So we went into kind of a product development where we started changing orientations and density grades and coming up with different ways to make our panels longer and more performative. And we took those down to Oregon State University and had them tested to see if we had a viable concept. And when it appeared we had, we actually were able to get a patent for the product and the process to create the first veneer-based mass timber panel in the marketplace. Wow. And this was 2000, the early teens, mid-teens?

20:13Yeah, 2015. That is really, really cool. Yeah, I mean, believe me, you know, we're a small family company. It's not like we have a R&D department.

20:24And really up until that point, we didn't even have a technical director that really understood wood science. And so it was really just kind of put on your boots and let's put a bunch of wood together and see exactly how we can do this. And just our basic understanding of how we've been in the wood business, of course, for 100 years. So we like to think we're experts in our field. So we were able to come up with these ways where we could put wood together, exceed all the performance characteristics of cross-layment timber at that time.

20:56And, yeah, amazingly, it worked. I mean, since then we've added Pat Farrell, which is our technical director, who's been just an incredibly wonderful asset for us, understanding the wood mechanics and being able to predict what we can do with material and a lot of people. So, and the other benefit we have, you know, we're a small family company, but we were able to, you know, essentially go to our board and go to our shareholders and green light a $40 million investment into a new facility for a product that no one had made before. Wow. But we were relatively certain we could do it.

21:27That's so cool. It's been, it's been, believe me, we've been on the bleeding edge, not the leading edge, but we've learned a lot. And, I mean, frankly, I think we produce probably the finest performing mastermure product on the marketplace. So a couple of questions. So is the MPP basically like an LVL, but just stretched out to be a panel instead of just being a beam format? Correct. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it.

21:58Are there any advantages to using CLT over MPP?

Comparing MPP and CLT

22:03Oh, you know, I'm a little bit biased about this one. I don't know if that's a good question to ask me. So, you know, the, what people have generally, if they're going to make a choice between us and CLT, it's typically on appearance. You know, because people are looking, they have in their mind kind of the white spruce look from Europe where it was initially developed. Doug fir has a different hue. It can be, you know, a little bit pink at times, especially in the heartwood.

22:37And our panels can look like standard plywood. We've actually spent a lot of time over the last couple years developing additional appearance grades. So we have a board face that has the same performance of our material, but it looks like a traditional CLT. And we also have an edge grain that really, we essentially build up a 24-inch thick billet. Then we cut off one-inch slices of it. We re-sand that. Then we adhere that onto the face of the panel.

23:07Whoa. And so that by itself has a really unique look to it that people like a lot. I'll say this, you know, obviously we have a lot of architect friends and colleagues and some of them are fortunate enough to do their own houses that they live in and whatever else. And plywood is a pretty common material they use for surface because it's cheaper than doing like rifts on white oak. And there's actually, maybe it's just an architect thing or there's probably some other non-architects who appreciate it, but I think architects do have this natural love for plywood, the aesthetic of it.

23:43I'm not quite sure where that comes from, maybe because it feels more honest and a bit more not so like, how do I say it? Like it's a real material. It's like a real building material. It's not just a veneer. It's not just a fake thing you put on the wall to look good. And maybe that's why architects love it, but I think that the plywood aesthetic is a really, really cool one. But I understand what you're saying, that it is different from CLT. It's just weird that CLT is so much more talked about and known compared to mass plywood panel.

24:14And I guess this is because what you guys are doing is a lot newer. It is, yeah. I mean, the CLT was developed, you know, over 20 years ago, and now there's several producers in North America. And they can kind of, you know, more standardize their look based upon the lumber grays that they're putting into it. But I think part of that is that we are a sole producer. So, you know, at the end of the day, it's, you know, people think about, you know, what is the majority of the marketplace out there. But, you know, I think the real benefits to our product come in with performance.

24:48And number one to this is moisture content. Right? Because we're able to dry our veneers down to about a bone dry of 3% to 5% moisture content. Then when we re-laminate it together, we get to about 8% moisture content. It is really hard to get lumber down to a 14% to 16% moisture content. And when you do, it tends to move. It tends to crack. It tends to warp. It tends to bow. We have a very stable material that goes into our panels.

25:19And so it's very flat. We don't have very many edge joints at all across our mass timber. We're much denser than the natural lumber itself, closer to 37 pounds per cubic foot instead of 32 pounds per cubic foot. So there's areas in which density matters. We have a, we exceed performance. So, you know, beyond the aesthetic, there's just not an area in the mass timber universe where I think cross-limit timber outperforms our mass fly CLT. Yeah.

25:49Yeah. When you do ship across, you know, the country, like, do those components also have to kind of like sit for a while and acclimate before they get installed? Or it doesn't really work like that for, for those products? No, amazingly enough. I mean, LVL and structural composite lumber are really approved to be used anywhere in the United States under almost any type of humidity or relative humidity environment. Um, it would really take getting up to, well, I should probably shouldn't, uh, quote any numbers, but don't, because I don't have the charts in front of me, but you would almost have to be in a wet greenhouse before you end up in an environment.

26:27Um, and I'm talking like a mushroom warehouse, that type of thing where they're constantly, uh, maintaining a really humid environment before you have any type of issue at all with this type of material. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's interesting. I know that in various parts of the United States or the area I'm more familiar with, like Truckee, um, they will, the high end houses, uh, LVLs are used throughout because they're just so much more stable, um, than your typical dug first stick.

26:59Um, and, you know, obviously there, the weather is swings pretty heavily and gets really cold and, uh, you're framing during that, that season. And it's just, uh, it's a lot more expensive, but it is a very, very stable, uh, you know, piece of wood that you're working with. Um, 100% for those high end homes and whatnot. I mean, LVL is straighter, it's more dimensionally stable.

Forest Management Realities

27:23It won't move very much. Um, and you know, a lot of this too is not, um, you know, lumber is still a great product. It's just, uh, with, with the way that we're handling our forest management nowadays, the quality of the lumber products that are available at your home depots and whatnot are not near what they were back in the seventies, eighties, and nineties. And that's, it's primarily because, you know, we've got our federal government owned 60% of Oregon and they account for less than 10% of the harvest.

27:53So the timber harvest has been forced back onto, to, uh, industrial landowners. So the timber harvest rotation has gone down to say a 40 year rotation instead of a 60 to a hundred year rotation. Um, and that's been forced on us by the marketplace, just by the federal and state governments being absent in timber harvest. So then the quality of the lumber goes down. And so actually, you know, using it as veneers makes sense because you're reintrodu- not, how do I say it? You're, you're, you're kind of bringing back in a certain sense, uh, a level of control and quality that, you know, was sort of there, uh, when the wood was better.

28:32I mean, you're, you're far beyond what it was there before, but you're, you're, you're kind of making up for the, um, the, the, the degradation and quality. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So the, the number one characteristic that we look at when, when we're looking for quality timber is ring count. So how, how tight are the rings together? How close is your late wood or early wood or your summer wood and your winter wood? Because that will tell you how dense and how performative the wood is. Um, you go to a 40 year rotation for say 12 to 14, uh, diameter breast height tree.

29:06And you're going to have, you know, say three or four rings per inch instead of seven to nine. And that just creates problems with the material. Yeah. I mean, so we do, you know, our office, we, we do houses and we do, uh, remodels and new construction and remodels. Sometimes we're opening up homes that are quite old. The studs in those homes are fucking dense. They're like harder to cut legitimately than any of the new stuff. It's, it's actually, it's hard to quantify it. I don't know the quantity, but it feels like twice as hard than the stuff at Home Depot where you can like, just almost like you push with your thumb.

29:40Then you'll leave an indent. They've also been baking in the building for, you know, decades. Well, yeah, maybe that has something to do with it too. I know. I mean, I, I agree. I love going into remodels of houses that were built in say 1950 to 1980, because the quality of those lumber pieces and the wood products in it are just, you know, far surpass anything that we make right now from a solid sawn standpoint. With your company, then it's the, it's the panels, you know, that kind of format, but do you also sell or offer, uh, you know, basically beams and posts like other shapes or is it just the panel?

30:19Yeah, we'll, we'll do the beam and column as well. In fact, it would be our goal. And typically what we like to do is that if we have a, a building design, we want to take every structural element within that building and incorporate it into our system. Because, you know, especially with nowadays where you have, you know, the 3d modeling, your rhinos, your rabbits that are creating these integrated models for everyone to work on and integrate multiple trades across it. The benefit is, is that we're the sole supplier of the structural system. We know that it's going to fit together well.

30:49And so any type of fab on the beams, the columns, the floors, the roof, even the walls, um, that turns into our purview that we end up delivering the entire structure at the same time.

Engineering and Pre-Planning

30:59So do you have an engineer in, so like, so let's say I'm an architect, I am an architect, but let's say I'm an architect and I'm going to work with you guys and I'm going to do either a multifamily structure or house, you know, whatever it is. Um, uh, now that I asked this question, so when, when is the best time for me to engage with you? Do you have your own engineer in-house? How does the process go? Uh, so the earlier, the better, if you're looking at trying to reduce the cost for the, for the overall project.

31:29And the reason being on that is that, um, there are some very inefficient panel sizes for, for manufacturing, um, that if we have to, you, well, another way to put this a little bit better is that a well-designed project will typically have about five to 7% drop or waste. So consider everything that you cut off on your CNC machine, every window you cut out, any curvature, any shape, any integration for say steel strapping or beam and column integration, um, taking all that into account, five to 7% is a pretty good waste number.

32:05If you get into a very poorly designed project, you can be 20% and you know, we have to build our costs based upon the gross volume of wood that goes into it, not net. And so if we're able to help push the design decisions so that we can help minimize, uh, the waste on the project and push to efficient use of our product, then we're able to save, you know, 20% of the overall cost for the project. And I think that's an, I think that's in everyone's interest. We don't want the waste wood on our slab or going into our cogent plant.

32:39And the customer typically doesn't want to pay for it. So the earlier, the better is, is, uh, the easy way to put it. We do have engineers on staff and we're happy to work on design build with any client. Um, but typically the engineer of record for any building really wants to take control and do the final analysis for, for the engineering design values. So we haven't run into very many projects where, uh, a, it has been requested of us to, to handle the engineering portion of it.

33:09Do you see a lot of communication happening between your engineers and the engineer of record? Because the engineers of record in general have a lot of like catching up to do to understand the product or is it pretty straightforward? And most of most savvy engineers are like, yep, I get it. Let's go. I don't need to, it's not, um, it's not a daunting new task for them to understand what they're working with. I think that is more the case that it's not a daunting task for most engineers. Most engineers are, you know, pretty intelligent people that are willing to think outside the box.

33:42And, you know, frankly, I think they're very excited about having a new material to design with out there. Um, maybe the idea that steel, steel and concrete are a little stale and they're able to use a renewable recyclable, um, you know, solar powered material like wood in order to create some really nice biophilic buildings that frankly feel better than concrete and steel does. So I, most engineers love working with it. If we get questions from engineers, it's typically in the realm of how do you, you navigate the fire design or how do you, have you ever used this type of scenario for the panels?

34:22Uh, what, what did you do to just, to justify that? Have you ever done testing that isn't included within your product report that would give us additional credence to use it in this way? Those are the types of questions we get. Okay. So then from a, a, the lens of like all the parts of the house, your, your, your products, what you guys do, floors, slabs, sorry, floors, uh, roofs, I guess, exterior walls, interior walls. Is there any limitation of where we can and cannot use these things? Well, by the PRG 320 code, I mean, it, uh, shouldn't be used in a consistent, um, weather exposed area.

35:01I mean, and that's, we've been used as say exposed eaves and whatnot, but what you don't want is just, you know, direct weather to be on it, um, would never performs great in that type of scenario. Yeah. So, uh, beyond that, no, we've, people have really thought outside the box and we've been used for, you know, decorative pieces. We've been used for, uh, warehouses, uh, data centers, uh, multi-story, multi-family, single-family residences, uh, modular homes. We've got two modular projects going on right now.

35:31So frankly, I think people are just kind of just starting to tap all the potential that these wood products have. And now a quick break to thank the sponsors who support the second studio, architects, design leaders, founders, redefining the industry. If you want to shape not only buildings, but the businesses behind them, this is your moment. Future London Academy's executive MBA takes you inside the boardrooms of Pentagram, Uber, Zahadid Architects, and Google, where you will master finance, strategy, and operations from the people who already excelled at them.

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CNC Routing and MEP

37:07And then getting a bit more into the details, so for the envelope of a building, I'm assuming that the wood provides some amount of R value, given, you know, with the biggest, depending on its thickness. So, in a typical wall makeup, we'd have the panel, I'm guessing also plus a layer of insulation, and then your cladding for weather protection? Correct. I mean, typically what people like to make sure is that all your weather protection is on the outside of the panel. So, typical is vapor barrier, insulation, standoffs, then your rain screen, then your exterior cladding product.

37:44Yeah, got it. To your previous question, yeah, our wood panels typically have about a 1.25 R value per inch. Per inch. Okay. Okay, cool.

37:55Are you guys able to route in channels for electrical and small plumbing? 100%. Yeah. In fact, most of the panels we produce are pretty detailed. So, there was a period of time when we first started where people felt like, well, we might as well do these cuts and the holes and whatnot on site, because we haven't planned ahead for it too well. Yep. And what they find is that we're really dense material, and it's really hard to cut and drill on site.

38:29So, the pre-planning in order to get all those trades involved and make sure you don't have to do a whole lot of penetrations on site is really important. So, we have two CNC machines to make sure that, one, we have redundancy, but also that it doesn't turn into a bottleneck in our system. So, we end up doing a lot to each individual panel.

38:51So, with the MEP, what are the limitations of what you can do and cannot do? And I'm guessing it's mostly like a structural question, right? Because if you remove too much of the material, then you have a big, you know, weak spot. Well, you know, most of that is calculable, I guess you could say. So, you know, you always know what your remaining structural integrity is, just based upon the thickness. So, the limitations are really the fact that you're dealing with a machine that has tooling.

39:23So, let's say you want to make a penetration into a nine-inch thick panel. We've got a router for that, but it's an inch and a half router. So, that means you're going to have, on corners, a three-quarter inch roundover. Got it. In addition, people typically think that, oh, you can put a big billet on a bunch of saw horses, and then your saw can make a single cut to split that. Really, the way these CNC machines look at it is that it's creating individual parts. So, you've got to go around the perimeter of every single one of those.

39:54So, like, if you're going to route that part, you're going to have your inch and a half thickness of your bit has to travel around that entire part. And if you go around two parts, you've got three inches that you've got to hog off in order to create your part. So, those types of details, you've got saw overruns. So, you can't cut parts of different lengths out of the same position in the billet without moving a part off. So, there's a lot of details, particularly in the CNC manufacturing, that does limit the overall impact.

40:26In addition, there are some machines out there that can do two-sided processing, but our machines are specifically designed to do one-side processing. So, they sit on a sawhorse, and they're processed entirely from the top. How often do you guys design your own machine? Because I'm sure that comes up a lot in the fabrication world, where sometimes the machine is just not doing what you want it to do, and you end up, like, designing it yourself. No, that's an interesting point. So, this is kind of a unique process.

40:57So, at least the first quarter of our process, we took essentially unique machinery and put it together to create the products we wanted. It wasn't as if there was a completed machinery line that could do what we were asking it to do. But then, for the next portion of it, mass timber has been fairly well understood in Europe. So, most of that equipment was provided turnkey from Minda, and our primary contractor was Stiles. And so, they provided CNC machine transfers, press, and our primary layup, all as a turnkey project.

41:34So, Stiles, are they like a manufacturing consultant company? Yeah. They work with the Home Ag Group. They do a lot of, say, equipment for prefabricated walls and whatnot. But they're essentially an equipment and machinery and knowledge bundler. Yeah. Where they understand what type of equipment is available out there, and they can help you put it together in a format that will work for you. Got it. It's funny, because I think I just heard of them, like, yesterday.

42:05It's an odd timing. I don't know if my phone is listening to me. You get some catch-up to do, David. Yeah, yeah, I'm behind. But I'm like, I just heard of those folks. I think it's the same people. So, do you find that people, when they use your product, they're using it for interior partitions as well? Or are they going – and then also, actually, leading into that is, like, what's the cost difference between a typical – I'm sure this is hard to calculate – but, like, a typical wall versus a mass plywood wall? So, the walls are probably the most difficult areas to work with, because there's so much going on with them.

42:38You've got, you know, essentially your insulation. You want to hide some of your plumbing, your electrical, and whatnot. And it's very well understood by the trades. Yeah. So, typically, unless you've got a very structural purpose, like, you know, we do walls for elevator shafts or concrete core replacement. That type of stuff works out very well. But if you're just looking at an interior partition, I mean, you can't get any cheaper than a light wood frame. Yeah. So, we really do try to guide people towards the best uses and way to use the material.

43:08A way to think about this is that you're really looking at something more like typical timber frame construction than you are light wood frame construction. So, if you make more of a post and beam type building, then you infill your partitions with a light wood frame, then you can start to make things very, very cost effective. But if you think that you're going to replace a 2x6 exterior stud wall with a 6-inch thick wood panel, you're never going to do it. Got it.

43:39Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. That's super helpful.

Fire Ratings and Assembly

43:42And what about fire rating? I know with mass timber, one of the things is that, I guess because of its mass, it actually performs quite well in a fire from a life safety standpoint. From what I remember from my architectural courses back in the day, basically, the outer layer burns and turns into char. Does the same thing happen with MPP? Yeah, 100%. In fact, we actually perform even a little bit better. We have to follow the NDS on this, so you're still at a 1.6-inch-per-hour calculation.

44:14But since we're denser, and then all the glue lines that we have in that that have essentially been turned to glass, it impedes the movement of fire through it. So, on a tested value, we're closer to, say, 1.4-inches-per-hour for your char rate. And I'm guessing also speed of construction is another benefit, especially if you guys are doing customization to the panels. It sounds like also that there's an amount of, it's not prefab, it's not quite the right word, but an amount of prefab that's happening because you can cut out holes and cut panels to exact dimensions.

44:49So, it's more of a drag-and-drop installation. Is that also what you're doing or you're after? Yes. We want to handle 100% of the fab in the factory. And the speed of construction, I think, is very proven, depending on the building type. So, right now, we are doing our second multi-story building with Oh Wow down in Oakland. And it's essentially a 12-story building. I think 10 stories of wood. I mean, I haven't looked at it in a little while.

45:19But their general goal is that they want to get a floor up every day. So, they're going to have the entire 12 stories up in two weeks. Wow. But in order for us to do that, we essentially have to have the entire structure in our yard ready to ship. So, when you get into a project that's, say, 10 to 12 stories, you're looking at about 56 truckloads worth of wood. Then you end up with the logistics of these are all sequenced panels on a truckload that are reverse ordered for the installation on the project.

45:54But then you have to logistically plan those truckloads in the right order in order for those to be efficiently installed on the project. So, a lot of thought has to go into exactly how you're going to build the building and when we're going to ship it.

46:09It is cool, though. I think, you know, this also reminds me of going back to something you said about the more that you, the more the fabrication that's done in the shop, the more pre-planning has to take place. And it's funny because I think for ourselves as architects, we like that. I think architects in general like to have, I mean, we work in the conceptual and drawing space anyway, right? But we like to plan things out and not leave things to chance.

46:41And it reminds me that, like, in this method, you kind of have to do that if you want to be at all efficient. But you get a pair with the right GC, though, because that's really... Well, it eliminates the amount of, you know, guesswork and riffing done on site also maybe eliminates client changes.

47:03Yeah, well, no, that's exactly right. You can't turn back the clock and say, well, I'm not going to cut that hole in that location when it arrives on site. It is there. And so that we really rely on the integration of the architect, the engineer, and the GC to all sign off on the shop drawings to make sure that everyone is in agreement. Because we're producing these panels to about a 16th of an inch accuracy. That's one of the things that, you know, it far exceeds the accuracy of what you can get in concrete and steel. So it's better if everyone has their say in it and everything is pre-planned ahead of time in order to make these things happen.

47:42I mean, you could... The panels could be used for the floor of a... The first floor in a crawl space. So, like, actually, a lot of the stuff could be built off-site whilst the GC is doing site prep, maybe. I don't know. I'm thinking about phasing stuff. Yeah. I mean, our best scenario is that we receive the approved shop drawings, approved load diagrams and sequencing, and, of course, the funds up front. And that's something that people need to recognize, too, is that we're creating the entire structural building all in custom parts.

48:15And so we really insist on a full 85% payment for the entire structure prior to even production. Because we have no use for the material in any other building or place. So do you guys have a yard of the different thicknesses of material that's just sitting there? Or do you make it per order? No, we make it custom all the way from the initial 4x8 panel. So as it comes to our system, we'll reduce the length if the part doesn't need to be that long.

48:46Because we want to minimize the waste as much as possible. So we try to take every panel down to as much just to what we need. You kind of think about, like, those – have you seen those dinosaurs that you punch out of a wood panel? Then you can kind of construct a dinosaur out of it. Yeah, yeah. It's that type of thing. You want to use as much of your 12x48. Or if we only need to produce an 8x34-foot panel in order to accomplish the parts, we want to do that in order to make sure we don't have significant waste. So then how long does it take – I don't know what a good reference would be, but let's say a 3,000-square-foot, two-story house or whatever project you want to use as a reference.

49:26Like, how long does it take for you to make the stuff? Oh, great question. I'm trying to think about what building type is best. So let's say for a, like, a 12-story building, if we're doing the point-supported slab system type of thing, it's going to be between four and five weeks of production on a single-shift basis. If we're doing a 60,000-square-foot warehouse on current designs, it's going to be about a four-week production period on a single-shift. For all of the mass plywood?

49:56Yes. Every element. Holy smokes. That's pretty fast. That's very fast. They can't make windows that fast. That's too fast. You're throwing everything else. You're making all of us look bad. It's too fast.

50:08That's amazing. Yeah. Are most of the projects where this is used, is it a larger-scale structure, like a five-story up, multifamily, and the warehouse situation? Are you seeing it being used for smaller things like a one-off house? And what is the best application in your view? So, typically, the most cost-effective, I would say, is kind of like what OWOW is doing. We've got about six or eight point-supported slab buildings that are scheduled for this next year.

50:41And it's just really proven out in that. And the manufacturing is good for us. It's a very consistent panel thickness, a good production panel thickness. The warehouses have been a fantastic space for us. Because, you know, traditional CLT, you can't really decrease the thickness below four inches. That's kind of the standard is four and an eighth. We've done a lot of projects with two-inch roofs. So, we can do two inches really cost-effectively. So, like the Portland Airport is a project that we did.

51:13It was nine acres of two-inch panels for the roof. And that was very cost-effective because you can get to, on a multiple span there, about a 12-foot span with a two-inch thick panel. Wow. That's a lot of wood. And that's a big scale. That's impressive.

51:32But to your point, I don't think, you know, I'm in a mass-ply single-family home right now. But I would not say that this is the best cost-effective way to build a single-family home. We've done a lot of single-family homes, but it's a particular piece and use. So, a typical example would be Jackson Hole, Wyoming. You have a very short building season. You have a very well-heeled client. And then you have very high snow loads. So, those types of things can really lead itself to a superior-performing structural product like what we have.

Finishing and Surface Constraints

52:08What are some of the biggest learning curves you've been hit with as you've started this journey of the mass plywood? Oh, boy. I mean, it's been a humbling learning experience from day one. I mean, you think you know a lot about wood, and then you continue to learn more and more about it. And, you know, I never had very much experience in the actual construction market or how things are put together. So, just understanding the complexity of putting a building together, I think, is one of the biggest issues out there.

52:41GCs and architects have a whole lot on their plate. I mean, I never realized that architects did as much planning and work on a project as what they do. It's really impressive. And then another question is, are there common misconceptions that people have about MPP? Yeah, I would take that back to the appearance side of things. And then the other thing that turns into a difficulty is that, you know, we say pre-manufactured, but that's really pre-cutting and whatnot.

53:15And then you're talking about very heavy, difficult panels to move that will get scuffed up and other things happen during the construction process. So, you know, you have clients that anticipate that we're going to provide them with a fully sanded, stained, immaculate panel that's going to be, you know, just absolutely perfect and finished by the time that they put up in the building. No, we're rough carpenters. We're not finished carpenters, and you really don't want us to be. Because at the end of the day, there's going to be enough stuff happen during the transportation and the installation that these will need to be touched up and finished by more of a professional than we have available.

53:58Is there, like, a limitation of or kind of a constraint on, like, how should the panel be finished and, like, what should not be done to them, let's say, from a finished standpoint? What shouldn't be done? Well, you know, it's pretty easy to figure that out because we are just a Doug Fir veneered panel. So if people really want to try and figure out what they can do or what the finish they want, then it's pretty easy to go buy a 4x8 panel and put a whole bunch of different finishes on it and see how it performs.

54:28I think anyone that's ever finished a plywood-finished house or interior will find that it sucks up a lot of stain and, you know, any type of pretreatment that you put on it, it really soaks up a lot of materials, more than people anticipate. And then when you do, it's going to, you're going to have some raised grain in there that's going to have to be sanded if you want a truly finished appearance. Yeah. I'm kind of laughing because for our kind of recording studio, I made some panels and I used, I chopped up plywood to make frames.

55:06And you're right, like, plywood sucks up whatever you put on it, it just disappears. Like, where'd it go? And then you have a raised grain you've got to deal with. It always takes more than people think. Yeah. But I'm assuming, though, or in the case of Oh Wow or the other projects, are the interior, is the mass plywood panel being exposed for the look? Or are people covering it up with, you know, drywall?

55:36Yeah, I think most people would like to have wood exposed if there's a possibility for it. But with the current fire code down in California, Oh Wow was fully encapsulating these in Gypsum to meet the fire code. So, yeah, there's a couple ways to look at that. I mean, I love it when people can see our product and appreciate it. In the same token, if we can make the argument that we are the most cost-effective material to build a multi-story building compared to concrete and steel

56:07and become ubiquitous with creating very good structural material that doesn't have to be exposed, then that's fantastic. I think you kind of didn't say you rang the bell on that one. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And also, I mean, concrete is a pretty terrible material from a sustainability standpoint.

56:27Steel takes a lot of energy to produce. And what is wood? What about the glue? Are you guys using some kind of adhesive or glue that is more eco-friendly than not? Well, so the typical resins for plywood and for Mastenberg are, we have a phenolic line. So it's a PF phenolic formaldehyde line. And the reason why it's typically used is because it's known after decades to be completely stable in exterior environments.

56:58So our panels are exterior and exposure rated for bond line, which means that they will never degrade. So you have to have a resin that when exposed to heat doesn't melt or exposed to water doesn't dissolve. And that's why these resins are so good with it. They are developing bio-based resins, but they are still very much an experimentation. We are happy to move to that area because, I mean, obviously, you look at current events with the Strait of Hormuz and diesel prices, oil prices spiking.

57:35That is phenol, methanol, and those other chemicals are directly derived from fossil fuels. And we don't want to have that exposure on a cost basis as well. So as soon as they figure out bio-based resins, lignin-based resins, that type of stuff, that can perform and have the durability that the current resins do, believe me, the entire industry would switch over. I think I called it glue. It's like an idiot. It's a resin.

58:05Yeah, that makes sense. It all works. The glue. The sticking glue. The glue, you know, the stuff you put between the layers, you know. So what is next for you guys? Are you working on a bunch of other products, you know, or are you just kind of like pushing through? Like, what's, are you trying to like grow the company even more? Like, what's the, what's the, what's the future? Yeah. What's, what's the future? Yeah, so we do have several plans. I would say on, on the product development side, what we found, you know, I described our edge grain panel for the appearance.

58:39What we found is that can potentially lead to, to additional structural capacities. Because in that orientation, it's not only stiffer, but it's actually harder with the glue lines. So we're going to go into testing here pretty soon as far as how we can integrate that as a structural layer to improve the performance of the material, as well as appearance. Because as it is right now, our clients are paying for the appearance, the additional wood on it, but they're not getting a structural benefit. So we would like to be able to do that on a, on a performance basis for, I mean, what we really would like to see is continued growth of the mass timber market, where we can go from one shift to two shifts to three shifts.

59:24And then this, this is of course the best case scenario. And then we can start looking at different areas of the U S whether it's the Midwest or the East coast, where we can put in a facility to make this, this product nationwide. We do ship to the East coast right now. We we've had several projects there, but you can imagine that you've got a truckload. That's always going to be closer to $10,000 instead of a thousand dollars on the West coast. Yeah. Yeah. And actually with the stability of the product, um, the East coast and other regions would make a lot of sense.

59:57Um, like we're outlining the, the, the, the time for construction, the weather shifting. Um, those are a massive benefits I think to, to using your products. I mean, we, you know, we're, we're split time between LA and San Francisco. It's pretty moderate weather in those parts of California. Um, to develop as well as that, obviously this is a project based business right now. So if you have a project delayed and you don't have a significant backlog, that's overlapping to fill up a production day, then it really hurts us financially.

1:00:29So, you know, um, what, what is really helpful is if you can have say industrial or other products, like, uh, we do, uh, crane matting or, or, uh, industrial bridges, that type of thing for. Um, for projects, if you have that type of product that you can go to in the background, if you don't have a significant project in front of you, building that type of baseline is, is, is really one of our goals as well. Do you ever ship to, I don't know, other countries? Like, is that, has that ever come up?

1:01:00Yeah. In fact, uh, we're loading a container right now for South Korea. Uh, we've shipped to Saudi Arabia. Um, we've got some projects that are looking at it down in, uh, Columbia as well. So yeah, we can, the main limitation there is just going to be your container size. It limits you to sub eight feet and depending on your container, either 19 feet or, uh, 39 feet. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, we, we hit like every single question I wrote down, uh, really, and you answered them so clearly.

1:01:32Uh, this was like really, it's really fascinating. Um, the performance aspects are, are very clear. It also just occurred to me, it's kind of like, and I mean this in a good way, but like, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. Like, because plywood has been around for a very long time and it's like, I guess it's funny. You guys are the only ones to think of why don't we push it, make, make it thicker. I mean, there's more to it than that, obviously, but like, I don't, I don't know why it wasn't tried at an earlier time.

1:02:08Um, actually, so the, the nerd in me is wondering, so like going back in time when you first created the, when you created the first, uh, you know, product, like how big, what were the challenges to get from just a normal plywood sheet? That's five eights, three quarter, whatever, and then ramp it up to being six inch to 24 inch. Like is the, did it require completely new machines, a different process? Like, is it as simple as simply stacking them on more on top of each other or like, was it more involved? No, it's significantly more involved than that.

1:02:40Uh, in particular, the, the most difficult portion of it is how do you take a four by eight sheet and how do you make it much longer first? So what we settled on was a structural scarf joint. So we essentially cut in a slope on the front and back end of the panel that will overlap. Um, and by, you know, historical indications that typically is at an eight to one to your overall panel thickness. So if you have a one inch thick panel, you need to have an eight inch slope cut into the panel.

1:03:12Wow. Um, but I mean, what you're doing is that you, you are integrating, introducing a defect into the wood. The wood panel is solid wood will typically outperform anything that has something manufactured into it. So we initially had a way where we are cutting that, that joint in that we were hoping was going to match. But what we found is that when we were cutting on both sides of the panel at the same time, you will always have a little bit of an out of, out of plane, or, um, those planes will not match perfectly. So one of the most difficult developments for us was, um, creating, you know, designing a robotic format in which we can grab a four by eight panel, put one side into a planer that will cut that joint in, then remove it, flip it over.

1:03:59Then introduce the other side into the same planer with the goal that you will have an exact matching point, uh, plane, because it's, it's going through the same piece of machinery. So then that, for instance, it's really, really complicated. That too, just to make sure I understand. So that, but the scarf joint where you're saying in like in section, if it's a one inch thick piece of material, the, uh, I guess the width of the length, I don't know how we, the, the depth of the, of the angle cut is eight inches. So it's a one to eight triangle, uh, uh, of sorts.

1:04:32Yep. That is a steep, that is a steep, steep cut. Um, so then the larger panels that you do that are, you know, 40 feet long by whatever width are basically four by eight sheets that are tiled. Um, and so that the joints are, are, are, are misaligned. Yeah, kind of. So, I mean, essentially once we produce everything in a, um, whatever length we need for the project, let's say 48 feet. Um, we're going to scarf those panels, the four base together until we get to 48 feet. Then we're going to cut those off with a flying saw.

1:05:03So you've got four by 48 feet. Um, some of those will cut down to two feet with, and that's because we're trying to make all of our panels, uh, longitudinally. So when we go into secondary lamination, in order to make your thick and your thickness and your width, you do a four, four foot, a four foot and a four foot on one layer. Then on the next layer, you do a two foot, a four foot, a four foot, a two foot, and then you just build it up in brick format until you get the thickness you want. Uh, so we're not technically introducing any cross layers within that overall thickness of billet because we've already introduced the minor force direction into each four by eight panel.

1:05:42I see. I see. I mean, the, the facility must be huge to accommodate all these things. Um, yeah, just, just to move a 12 by 48 foot panel takes a lot of room. So yeah, it's 190,000 square foot facility.

1:05:56That's really cool. Um, I, again, uh, this was really, really interesting. Um, uh, is there anything else, um, that we didn't ask that, you know, you wanted to chat about or to cover? Well, you know, I, I don't think we can talk about products like this unless we actually talk about force management a little bit or what type of material that we use. So being a veneer plant, you know, we're essentially peeling a log or a block, like a roll of toilet paper. So one eighth inch thick creates a long ribbon of, uh, of wood essentially that then gets stand, uh, scanned and clipped into four by eight sheets that are then laminated together.

1:06:36Um, but what that means is that our average block size going into our lathe is really only about eight inches. Uh, and we can peel down from a five inch block. So we will peel that down to about two and five eighths inches thick for, or a diameter for the peeler core, and then turn that piece into lumber as well.

Stewardship and Portland Airport

1:06:59So veneer, as opposed to lumber typically recovers, let's say 80 to 85% into the final product, as opposed to lumber, you're doing really good at 60 to 65%. So the utilization is much better, but also when you, when you look at the type of material that's available in our forest, that really needs to be managed. The, uh, suppressed understory of an overgrown forest where you need to thin it out and allow the, the residual trees to grow again. That's what we really specialize in.

1:07:30Um, but the overall problem that we have in, in the U S is the fact that particularly in Oregon is that we've got a large federal landowner that has chosen to, um, take a management policy that they're just going to neglect the forest. So what that means is that you have this additional biomass growth on an annual basis, that if we don't take that out and turn it into good usable products, then mother nature will. And what we're seeing right now is that we've burned a million and a half acres in Oregon already this year.

1:08:03And it's, it's only the end of July. So not doing anything is still a management technique. And I think what we've found over the last 30 years of neglecting our forest is that it's a bad choice that we need to be good, effective gardeners and stewards of our forest resources out there. And that means we need to go in, we need to thin some areas. We need to take care of our, our forest properties instead of just neglecting them. And we're here to do that. The problem is, is that there's not the political will and there's continued environmental, uh, obstruction towards going through those.

1:08:38Those forest management techniques. So all we've seen over the last 30 years is a reduction in, in, uh, timber available for companies like ours. And what that means is it makes products more expensive as well. And we import our goods from foreign countries that don't have the environmental ethics that we do here in the United States. Um, so we have such a win-win opportunity here to not only manage our forest more effectively, we can create cheaper wood products that perform better, but it can also create more resilient forests and more prosperous rural communities in Oregon.

1:09:15And I just don't see a downside towards managing our resources more. Um, I mean, the way you describe it for sure, that's the case. And, you know, on the construction specific to the construction industry, obviously type five construction or wood, um, has been the longstanding to a traditional method of framing. Then we move over into, you know, plywood and mass plywood and CLT, whatever else, but it still all comes from wood. Um, so we have an entire industry or culture almost that's based around that material to, to build stuff with.

1:09:51Um, it's just, it's so that, so what you just said is a side of it that I'm, that I'm not aware of, that we're not aware of. It, and, and it doesn't make any sense that there wouldn't be more, uh, I guess it's funding and care and thought into something that's in our own backyards and sitting there. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, the environmental groups have been able to really make a case that there's more destruction that occurs from managing our forest than what you see with a forest fire. And, and I can tell you, that's not the case. I mean, we're limited to say, um, if you're going to do a clear cut in Oregon, you're limited by the Oregon Forest Practice Act to 120 acres.

1:10:27We are right in the middle of the Beachy Creek fire that happened in, in, uh, 2020. That's a 330,000 acre clear cut that's never been restored. So I can look out my window and see dead trees and with the, with the landscape overtaken by Scotch broom, which is an invasive species. To me, that is not a beneficial outcome. The beneficial outcome is what most of the private landowners have done in our area, which is immediately take all the dead trees off the property, turn that into product at a, at a financial gain, and then replant it into the next forest.

1:11:02But we're not, we're not doing that on our state and federal landscape in Oregon. And it's, it's really a shame. We really need to, to reevaluate that. You had mentioned, what was the percentage of, uh, it was a large percentage of the, the forest in Oregon is owned or managed by the government. Uh, 60%. That's a lot. Well, and they recognize that now after 30 years of neglect, that, that there's a significant portion of that, that is high severity, severity fire risk area. And that their management technique that they need, need to do is thin or create fire breaks or clear cuts or roads in between areas so that the fires don't spread and they're accessible and they can help put them out.

1:11:39Yeah. But every single, um, time that any of these, these sales or stewardship contracts are put up, they're still litigated. Yeah.

1:11:49Yeah. Yeah. Um, the final question for me, uh, not to cut you off yet, if you had more to say about that or something else regarding. Oh, no, I think I hit that. Okay. Perfect. Um, is, uh, what's your favorite part of your job? I love trying to, when I, when a client comes up with a particular problem or they're looking for a solution and we have the potential of, you know, creating a unique wood product to solve the particular scenario. I love that.

1:12:20I think that's, that's a really fun thing to do. So, um, I love getting into the techie review with our, our QA department, as far as, you know, how the products are developing, how we can make it a little bit better. That's, that's a lot of fun. And then, uh, you know, seeing these, the finished building is extremely rewarding when we were just making plywood panels and you're shipping truckloads of plywood, say to the Northeast. You don't have any personal connection with any building out there when we're creating the entire building. And you can go there a year after we've delivered and see a truly outstanding structure.

1:12:54It's, it's one of the most rewarding things out there. Cool. That's awesome. All right. So we have a traditional question we ask typically, you know, people that we interview. Most of them are architects, so that's why we ask the question. But I figured we might also ask, you know, ask you and see what, what you would say is what is your favorite building? Well, I think, um, the building that probably is the most high profile that was earliest in our development of product that they asked us to do the, uh, the most unique products that fit their stuff was at Portland airport.

1:13:26And so, um, you know, nine acres of material, but we were also a lot of the accent pieces. So they have these long sweeping eyelashes that come down from the skylights, um, that were not possible with traditional, um, dimensional lumber that we were able to make a very stable product that, that matched the dimensions of their lattice work. But, um, can still maintain its structure sweeping down from the ceiling. And so that was really cool. And they've since integrated that type of design into the down escalators into the baggage claim, which I just saw for the first time last month.

1:14:03So that was pretty neat. It's like the, the project that keeps giving, you know, where you're able to go there each time and see your product used in another way. And I mean, we're throughout that airport in, in a multitude of different applications. And it's, it's just, it's pretty neat. We've never been, but, uh, I feel like that's, that's a place we need to go see. Is that the project with the ZGF architects, architecture, architecture? That's correct. Gotcha. Yep. But, um, it's, I know keeping a last question, but so what was it like when you guys got that commission? Cause that's a massive, that's a massive structure.

1:14:33That's not a, uh, you know, just a single multifamily story or a single warehouse. That's a massive, massive building. Oh, I mean, it kind of took our breath away to begin with. And you can imagine it's a, it's a lifetime of marketing and they look up at the roof and to say that you've, you were a significant part of that is, uh, is important. So it, you know, like it, like I said, they asked us to do some really complicated stuff that was not really in our wheelhouse. And so we really had to go into development on some of those things, but frankly, it all worked out.

1:15:07So, you know, it's, uh, it's nice to have the, the reward there for, for a truly exceptional looking building. For sure. That's awesome. Well, Tyler, thank you so much for making time on a, are we, what day are we? Friday. Friday. Oh, thank goodness. On a Friday. Uh, it's been a long week. I appreciate it a lot. This was super interesting and I look forward to keeping in touch. No, you guys have been great. Really appreciate your questions. And this is as easy as you guys said it would be. Thank you everyone for listening to this week's episode. If you like what we're doing, then please support us by leaving a review of the show in the Apple podcast app or Spotify.

1:15:42You can also find us on YouTube where we have videos of all of the interviews and more informative conversations between Miranda and myself. You can find us on Instagram as well. The handle is second to studio pod, and that's also our website. So, you know, check them both out on, on Instagram, we post clips, reels, work images, quotes, announcements, stuff like that. If you have any, uh, guests, uh, you want to suggest any topics you wanted to talk about, any questions you might have, you can reach out. You can text or call the hotline 213-222-6950.

1:16:15We will eventually get you an answer. Sometimes it takes a little while. And, and on topics, if you have any cool building products that you think are worthwhile for us to talk about in a long format chat, then, um, I think that'll be fun to do. I want to do more of these. Okay. Cool. Talk soon. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

1:16:45Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.