Rethinking Time and the Myth of Urgency w/ Chris Guillebeau

Introduction to Time Anxiety

0:00Most of us make decisions about time without really thinking about it. We have these kind of internalized rules. Some of them come from childhood. It's like, this is how time was spent. You know, we all had dinner at this time. These are ways that we interacted. These were the expectations that I had. And so we tend to carry those on or we like, you know, create our own at some point without thinking about it so subconsciously. So one time rule is like, I'm always responding. I respond to things within a certain time period, you know, within 24 hours or whatever.

0:33And maybe like we've talked about, maybe that's helpful and maybe that's a good habit. Or maybe that's actually a stressful habit that's not actually serving you that well. So what is a better habit, you know?

Guest Introduction

0:48Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have Chris Gillibeau on the show. Chris is an author, entrepreneur, blogger, and speaker. He initially received attention for his travel blog and book called The Art of Nonconformity. More recently, he wrote the book Time Anxiety, The Illusion of Urgency and a Better Way to Live. In this episode, we discuss how time anxiety is more than just fear of missing out and is also different from ADHD. Chris argues that the fear of running out of time is very normal and that you have the power within you to feel better about your time.

1:24We discuss things like, what is enough? And he challenges the, quote, gospel of efficiency in Western culture. This was a fun and informative chat with someone I've wanted to chat with for quite a while now. So without further ado, I bring you Chris Gillibeau. Hey, Chris. Scott. Welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm very happy to have you. And I really enjoyed your new book. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Enjoyed yours as well. Rise Above? Yeah, that's a couple of months, a couple of months behind me, I guess, but around the same time, right?

1:58I saw you're doing all these interviews when I was getting ready to publish. Well, thank you. But this is about you. This interview is about you. Your new book, Time Anxiety, The Illusion of Urgency and a Better Way to Live.

Author Background

2:12Can you just start off by telling our audience a little bit about you and why you wrote this book? Yeah, of course. So, like you, I'm an author. I've been an entrepreneur. I was an aid worker for several years in West Africa. I had a project called The Art of Nonconformity where I went to every country in the world and started blogging about it. That's kind of how I started sharing online going back to 2008. I remember that. I remember you, Chris. I remember you from the psychology today days when I was blogging there.

2:44Yeah. Okay. That's right. That's right. Wow. How about that? That was quite a while ago. Yeah. And then I wrote my first book with Perigee, actually. I saw you've been with them for several of your books.

2:56And, yeah, I mean, I kind of built this, like, unconventional career community, sharing with them, hosting events and stuff. And as for time anxiety, I guess I felt like over the past few years I was doing a lot of things, but also feeling kind of stressed out about it and feeling a little bit, I don't know, chronically indecisive or, you know, I'm doing all these things.

Time Anxiety Experience

3:23I like the things that I do. It's not that I'm unhappy, but I also feel stressed about how I spend my time. And, like, am I doing the right things? How do I decide what to do next of all the things I could do? And just as I talk with lots of people, I kind of see that this is maybe not universal, but a very common condition or experience of people just feeling distressed about time in different ways, a sense of time running out, a sense of being too late for something. There's various, you know, aspects of it.

3:54But I just thought it was really interesting. And I wanted to, like, delve into it more, like, for myself and ultimately for other people as well. That's great. Yeah, it's very clear. This is part of our culture right now. As long as I can remember, it's been part of this pressure to get as much done or else you're missing out. But you clearly distinguish between this and FOMO, fear of missing out, as well as ADHD. I'm surprised you didn't put the acronym FORT, the fear of running out of time.

4:26But that's the acronym, right, is FORT. FORT, okay, yeah, maybe for the revised edition, yeah.

Fear of Running Out of Time

4:33Yeah. So can you just tell the audience a little bit about why is the fear of running out of time different than FOMO and even ADHD? Sure, sure. Well, I think the fear of running out of time, and it's not only, it's like the simultaneous, like, the fear of running out of time while the uncertainty over how to spend the time that we have. You know, I think that is what time anxiety is. It's not one or the other. It's a little bit of both. And I think time anxiety occurs through, like, all three conditions of time.

5:04So past, present, and future. Like the past, we have some regret. We feel that maybe we should have made a different choice about something. And that has, therefore, informed the paths that are available to us now. The present, like we talked about, what do I do? You know, how do I choose how to spend my time? And in the future, you know, what am I ultimately working toward? You know, is there a sense of purpose, you know, in my life? Whereas I think FOMO tends to relate more to the present. You know, it's like everybody's having fun without me.

5:35Or like I am missing out on something. And then, you know, for ADHD, I think, you know, I have experience with that. I was diagnosed as a kid and then as an adult. And the more that I've learned about ADHD and other forms of neurodivergence, the more I kind of recognize, okay, this, you know, this might show up in different ways or it might be more common among those of us who, you know, identify with a trait or a condition like that. But also the general population, like a lot of people have, you know, fears and concerns and distress over the role of time in their life.

6:10So it's not something that is unique to ADHD. There are parts of it like time blindness, you know, that might show up more for people who have ADHD, but it's certainly not exclusive. Cool. Thanks for making all those distinctions.

Research on Time Anxiety

6:26You really, this came to prominence with you when you wrote a blog post, isn't that right? You wrote a blog post about your experience and you got a lot of feedback. You got a lot of comments. What are some things you discovered from those comments? Yeah, I noticed in the comments, but then also like I did a lot of research and talked with about 1500 people, some detailed surveys of people with different walks of life and, you know, different ages and backgrounds and stuff. I think the thing that surprised me more than any other book project I've worked on or any other research project,

7:00the shared language. People, you know, from these different backgrounds would say almost uncannily like the same words. And I would say, what does time anxiety mean, you know, to you? There was the sentence. I feel like there's something I should be doing, but I'm not sure what it is. Like there's something I should be doing right now, but I'm not sure what it is. A lot of people said that, like, like just verbatim almost when I talked with them individually. Um, and also the sense of being too late for something.

7:33And I thought what was interesting about being too late is I think a lot of us might think, oh, that's something that people say at a certain, like, you know, generational point in their life. Um, you know, as you get older, you say that, but I heard that language from 17 year olds. So it's like a 17 year olds, like, I feel like I'm too late, you know, for something. And it's easy for those of us who are, you know, not 17 or anything close to that. It's easy for us to kind of like dismiss them and say, oh, but you have your whole life ahead of you,

8:03you know, but the whole point is the perception. Yeah. Yeah. The perception is like the perception that people have is that they've missed their chance. Um, so see, as those are some of the things that kind of jumped out right away. And I realized like there's, there's a lot to this, um, that we should look at more. What if you have missed your chance?

8:21I guess there's other chances, you know? I mean, you know, I, I've missed my chance to become a gymnast, right. Um, or, you know, there's lots, there's certain things that you do need to do, you know, from a young age and specialization and such. Um, but you can dwell on the fact that, you know, you're not going to be a gymnast, um, at the age of 47 or whatever someone's age is. Um, or you can say, given all the life experience that I have acquired thus far, um, you know,

8:57and there has to be some wisdom through that. Um, even if you acquired that wisdom by making so-called mistakes, like what's next? Like what, what is the, what is the chance that you can now, you know, grab ahold of? What do you think?

9:15Well, yeah, I love this, that you have other opportunities, but I think that there's a great relief in, in accepting that it's too late for some things. You know, I think a lot of people, some people feel a lot of pressure. I mean, women feel a lot of pressure to get, to have children before a certain age, right. I mean, cause they're biological constraints, but you know, I spoke, I've spoken to some women who used to be obsessed with that and then that never happened. And you know, now in their fifties and they're like, yeah, I've made peace with that. Yeah. It's like, well, it still goes on. It's okay. I can deal with this.

9:47You know, there are other ways I can leave a legacy. And so, you know, sometimes it's not as bad, you know, you panic, you panic, you know, maybe you miss it and then you really, you do realize that life goes on, you know, you know, there are other things you can do. Yeah. Maybe there's a grief process, you know, that has to occur or, you know, a process of acceptance, you know, as you, as you say. But ultimately, like ultimately we are stressed about time because time is limited and time is short and, you know, it's just, it is a continuous process, which is, I think a big

10:22part of what is distressing, you know, once it is, once it has been lost, it cannot be regained, you know, unlike other resources. And so ultimately I think, I mean, a key is, you know, radical, radical acceptance of it. I want to jump right.

Book Discussion

10:39I really enjoyed your book and I want to shoot right to my favorite chapter, which, you know, so I know usually you're supposed to go in order and be all like that, but I just want to shoot to my, which is, you have a chapter in your book called what is enough? And I kind of beeline to myself to that chapter because I wanted to know the answer. And I, cause I think that you don't, you don't, you don't give the answer once and for all. But can you explain to people why they're, first of all, why is there, the, why does it always feel like we're never enough?

11:10And, and how do you answer that question? Yeah. Well, I think for, let's see, what's the best starting point mentioned, you know, that I mentioned this thing about how, like, how do, how do we choose, you know, how to, how to spend time and such of all the things we could do. And for most of us these days, like we're not working in factories, you know, we're not working in manufacturing, like we're doing some sort of knowledge work, you know, whether it's for an organization or an education or for ourselves or whatever.

11:42So the work never ends. Right. And so like, there's always something else to be done. You finish something, there's always something waiting. And then it's not only in our work lives, there's always like, we now have access to unlimited information, right? Unlimited information, education, entertainment, edutainment, like there, there are no limits. There are no constraints, which is exciting in lots of ways. And it's also overwhelming. Um, and so I think, you know, the, the general point is if we don't set constraints or limits

12:13for ourselves, nobody else is going to. Um, and so what I've found to be helpful is like, you know, at the start of any day or any week or any project or whatever kind of life cycle you think in, just kind of deciding here is what enough looks like. Like if I do these things, um, I'm going to feel satisfied. I'm going to recognize that as a point of achievement or completion, uh, or at least like a point of pausing, uh, and then just kind of reflecting right before I just kind of go on to something else.

12:43I think we tend to get overwhelmed and burned out just because we keep going, you know, all the time. And that's our natural tendency. At least it is for me. Um, and so I've started to kind of like, what, what would enough be like, you know, in this situation, um, if I do these things, will that be okay? I could do more, but, um, is that sufficient? Why do you think it was, uh, your, you know, you said you liked that concept. What, why was that resonant to you?

13:16Hi, all. I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self-actualize. In the service of that, I just had a new book come out called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. In this book, I offer a science-backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope, not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to

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14:17You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. That's centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. Okay, now back to the show. Because I'm low-key obsessed with this tension we often feel between doing and being. And, you know, I struggle with the optimal sense of how much during my day should I be doing and how much should I be being.

14:49And I like the way you frame it. And in a way, your book is like a good coaching book because you don't tell people how to live their life, but you ask good questions, powerful coaching questions, things that really for people really reflect on and to really think about, you know, even just like sitting back and just meditating to yourself, how much would be enough for me? It was a really interesting question. You know, it's like, it really got me thinking about, like, I can answer that question and

15:20then I can try to accept it. But the second after I accept it, I'm already thinking, what should I be doing next? Just, it's like, there's such a tendency that's built into us that when we're being, we're thinking about doing, when we're doing a lot, we think, oh, I maybe need some rest here, need to be being, you know, we're constantly wanting to be in another state is another thing too. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's okay to want more, you know, I think it's okay. Like, I'm still pretty goal-oriented and also like low-key obsessed with like, oh, I want

15:53to do a bunch of stuff. I mean, that's, so this is not a book on minimalism, you know, necessarily, this is not a book, not a book on like, do less. It's more like if you are a person, if you are type A or you don't have to be type A, but like, if you are like a person who likes to do stuff, but also feel stressed out about it sometimes, I mean, that's, you know, like it's okay to want more, but you also might have to accept, you know, it's like, there's, there's ways to look at all of it. I have so many questions here for you, buddy. Um, I thought that it was interesting that, um, that you bring in the literature on cognitive

16:33distortions into this, because that's a topic I, as a psychologist, really care about, you know, and, um, and I would love to know some ways in which my cognitive distortions can be hindering or, or, or, or accelerating, uh, my feet, my, what was the acronym? I said, my fear of my fort, the fear of when you have time. Okay. Right, right, right. Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. What cognitive distortions do you feel like you particularly experience? I mean, do you, personal, personalization?

17:04Yeah. Okay. Oh, yes. Right. Um, I'm like Michael Jordan over here. That was personal. Right, right, right, right. Exactly. I got the name. Um, okay. Okay. So you're, um, right, right. You know, maybe feeling off that. I don't know that this problem is unique to you or something, or, you know, obviously you are a high performer, but you should be performing even higher. Right. Like there is no sense of enough, right. It's just, you're on some sort of like treadmill or it's, um, you know, pushing the

17:36rock up the hill kind of thing. Um, uh, you know, maybe a sense of like. Like unable to, I don't know. It's like happiness is a weird word, of course, but unable to like feel some satisfaction or contentment. Um, you know, it's like if one thing is done, you know, what's the next thing, or if something goes well, you know, your, your book sells like, you know, a whole bunch of copies, but then you look like somebody else's book, you know, sold more copies. I mean, these are slightly different, but I do think they're all kind of connected to,

18:07um, you know, to a sense of distortion around, around personalization. Um, so what, so what do we do? I mean, you're the expert, you're, I feel like you're more of an expert than me in this. I, you know, I always think about like, how can we rewrite, you know, a story or write or like write a different story. That's, it's not like the other story isn't there in our heads as well, but how can we add to it, um, how can we think about, uh, when I, when I feel like the self-applied pressure or I feel envious of someone else or feel like my circumstances are unique, I often think

18:41like, would I want to live somebody else's life? Like, would I, like, I, maybe I feel envious of this person, uh, but would I want to trade my life for theirs? It's not even just living someone else's life. It's trading your, trading your own life, you know? Love it. Yeah. Yeah. I had a, no, sorry, go on, go on. I was just going to say, like, when you trade your life for someone else, you, you don't just get there as you have to give up yours, right? You have to like all the experiences you've had, the relationships that you've had, the like learnings that you've had, um, like everything that, you know, good and bad in your life,

19:15like no longer exists. And once I think that way, I'm like, oh, there's nobody, like, there's nobody out there that I would want to trade my life for. And that actually feels pretty good. What were you going to say? No, no. I really resonate with that. And that that's really helped me a lot with my, uh, whatever jealousy of people on Instagram. And I was like, yeah, I'm like, okay, that's just one aspect of their life. But you know, it's not, no, no, really, really good point. Um, can you tell people a little bit about this concept of time blindness, time blindness?

19:45Yeah. Yeah. Why is it, why can it be so liberating? Well, if you understand it, it's interesting. I wrote this like manifesto for the book and had the rec recommendations, like one through 10. I put like first recommendation is like, one of the best things you can do in your life is to allow 10 to 15 minutes more than you think you need for transitions, uh, or, you know, for going somewhere, leaving to meet someone, um, or it's just kind of moving from, you know, thing to thing in your life. And it's obviously very simple advice. Um, but it seems, it seems to both resonate and also people, some people feel really uncomfortable

20:22with it, um, as well. And, uh, time blindness, you know, is essentially a condition or an experience of chronically like overestimating or underestimating time. Um, and I think we're, you know, it's, it's common for people with ADHD, but I think a lot of people, most people don't perceive time very well. I was doing this experiment on my book tour where we would like count to like everybody close their eyes and count to 60. Um, and let's see how accurate, you know, you are and like, nobody's accurate.

20:55Everybody's off by like 15%. And so in the course of one minute, people are off by 15%. And so if you extrapolate, like if you're trying to keep track of time in your head, you're going to be off like all the time. Plus it's not a very good use of your cognitive functioning. There's a lot of other stuff you shouldn't be doing, you know? So time blindness, just like, you know, imagining that we are going to be able to do all these different things. Um, I have to leave for a meeting, but I'm going to try to, you know, do one more thing before I go. And then I'm going to be late because I didn't think about the traffic or how, you know,

21:26whatever the other variable or circumstance is. And so most people who are, uh, chronically late, I, I think they don't like that. Like most people are like not happy with that. They, they know it's like stressful for them. They feel bad that they're letting other people down. Um, and you know, the simplest thing they can do is just to add a little bit more time and it will make their, their life a lot better. But some people are resistant because they're like, um, what will I do with all that extra time? You know, which is a weird thing, but, um, you know, if you are, if you are 10 to 15 minutes

21:58late all the time, you're probably not going to shift to being 10 to 15 minutes early all the time. I'm like, you're probably going to shift to actually being like on time for things and that's good. It's going to feel relieving. Yeah, no, that's a great point. Um, and just in general, this, this fear, uh, you, you talk about so many like beliefs

Time Blindness

22:13that people have that they need to unlearn. Um, and this, just even just this thought that, um, uh, if, if, if I have free time, you know, what am I going to do with it? Um, you'll, you'll end up spending that time thinking about and what you should be doing more of, but why don't we think about, why don't we ever think about it in terms of being like, like in a wonderful opportunity for being, you know, how come people like, there's not a societal kind of script that says you should free up your time so you can have more

22:47time to meditate or you can free for times. You can have more time to just exist and like maybe just behold with all in wonder, like your loved one or your child or, um, I mean, that's just a different framing, but it feels like that kind of, you don't, I don't know. Am I making any sense? You don't always need to have a task. I think that's what you're saying. Right. Thank you. Thank you for explaining what my point was, but, um, yeah, no, no, it goes a lot back to this, this being versus doing thing, you know, and I do think there are certain beliefs about

23:20I have to fill every second of the day because if I don't, what am I going to do? And, and it's like, well, you don't always have to do every, do something. Right. But does, do you find this also produces a conflict then? Like once you adopt this framework, you're like, okay, that's good. That's a good little tweak. But now my choice is what's the ratio, you know? Right. Like, okay, I know I'm, I'm experiencing being more and that is good in my life.

23:51But, you know, I also want to work on things. I want to like make things and create, um, is it just an intuitive process? You, you kind of understand or like, I'm, here's the time for doing, here's the time for being, is it seasonal? Well, what I've, what I learned from your book is that a great first step is giving yourself more time. And, and I think there's something really beautiful about that, about, um, figuring out how you

24:24can have more freedom and maximum possibility to choose the things you really want to choose. Cause I think that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. It's like, like we get so busy checking things off our to-do list that we start losing our own sense of self or losing our own connection to ourself. Um, so yeah, well, I like that. I want to just say, I like that as a first step. Oh, no, it's good. I like the frame, the framing of the, you know, the being and doing, um, the first step is

24:54interesting. Cause I think I wrote the rest of the book first and then just talking with my editor and it was like, man, some interesting like research and probably some good suggestions here. But like, think about the ideal reader for this book. You know, the ideal reader is, is pretty distressed and they are kind of like overwhelmed and like, we need to give them something like, what do you do right now? You know, like what is something you can do to start feeling better? You know? And I think one of the, one of the great things that anybody can do is, as you just said, like

25:28give yourself the gift of time. There's all these cliches about like time is the most precious resource, you know, time is more valuable than money and, but most of us don't really live that way. And so like, there's a whole like industry, cottage industry of, of decluttering. Um, you know, it's like all this stuff I got to declutter from my physical space, my home, my apartment, et cetera. Um, and I think that can be helpful, but like time is the thing that we are stressed about more than, you know, like how many socks I have or how many trinkets are on my desk.

26:00Um, so what can we do to like give ourselves time? How can we remove items from our calendar? How can we close off one of our inboxes? How can we just reframe how we think about saying yes, you know, to people who want to hang out that we don't necessarily want to hang out with? Like it actually feels very relieving to do that. Oh, I agree. Really well put. Thank you. Um, so how can you use time rules to your advantage, not your disadvantage?

Using Time Rules

26:28Uh, so, uh, most of us make decisions about time, um, without really thinking about it. We have these kind of internalized rules. Some of them come from childhood. It's like, this is how, this is how time was spent. You know, we, we all had dinner at this time. These are ways that we interacted. Um, these were the expectations that I had. And so we tend to carry those on, or we like, you know, create our own at some point without thinking about it. So subconsciously. So one time rule is like, I, I'm always responding.

27:00I respond to things within a certain time period, you know, within four hours or 24 hours or whatever. Um, and maybe like we've talked about, maybe that's helpful and maybe that's a good habit, or maybe that's actually a stressful habit. That's not actually serving you that well. Um, and so what is a, what is a better habit, you know, what is something you can do that's different? I love it. You're, you're kind of rewriting the roles of, uh, you know, societal expectations around this stuff as well. I feel like you want to change culture too, don't you?

27:32Well, I think I want to, I always focus on individuals, you know, I focus on people. Um, like, you know, I used to, I did a lot of like work in the entrepreneurial space and I wrote a book called a hundred dollar startup. And part of why I wrote that book back in the day was like, there's a lot of books about startups and, uh, like companies and organizations. And I really want to focus on people like individuals, uh, cause I mean, that's how society changes, right? It doesn't change like top down with somebody being like, here's society now change, you know? Yeah.

28:02Chris, what, what are you? I don't, I don't know, Scott. I have no idea. What, what, what, what are you? Um, so if you had to say like your soul, is it an entrepreneur? No, my soul would be writer. Yeah. Author or creator. I get what, well, creator now is now a word that's been like, you know, it's kind of like influencer. I don't like that. But you're not conformist. Yeah. Yeah. I'm myself, you know? Right. But you're, no, but you're, you're very unique.

28:33You're a very unique self. Um, I think you like you are too. I mean, I was just going to say, I was just going, I was just going to say kindred feels like a bit of a kindred spirit. You know, I don't know how many Columbia like psychologists are doing mentalism, you know, on the side. Right. You know?

28:49No, I just feel like we both just like being nonconformist and, um, and living life on our own terms. I think that's the big thing is how can we live life on our own terms? And I've seen that I've resonated, uh, about with you about that since I was in grad school writing for psychology today and reading your blog posts. That's so funny. That's so wild. 2008. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And you've done 10 books, right? 10 books, you know? So I'm only on nine. I got 11, but who's counting? Who's counting? Yeah. Rise above was my 11th, but, um, yeah, we're not counting here.

29:21Um, but, uh, no, uh, so yeah, no, that I really want to just like get to like, what is the essence of you? Like, what is, you know, like your book is, you know, like your book is books are not, their books are very different from each other too. Yeah. So, um, you know, what's like the thread that runs through like your, your, all your work, the thread that runs through it all is this message of, you don't have to live your life the way other people expect. Um, and I think that's the starting point, you know, it kind of goes through everything.

29:53Um, I mean, we could say more about it, but it is also kind of self-explanatory, you know, like there's in life, you encounter all kinds of people who have expectations. For you and they have ideas and here's what they want you to do and good for them. You know, they can, they can have those things. Um, but also you can decide for yourself and, you know, and deciding for yourself is, is not by the way, like a completely selfish, you know, hedonistic approach. Like you ultimately are going to be fulfilled, you know, by doing good things for yourself

30:26and for others. Like there's a very much a service component to it. Um, but I think, you know, if you just start with that, like you don't have to live your life the way other people want you to. And also maybe there, there's another way. Like, this is another like theme of like, there isn't, there are, there's one path, you know, and there's a traditional path and there are alternative paths. There are, you know, it's more than one way to do things. And you can apply that to, you know, education, relationships, spirituality, business, life, work, travel, you know, everything. Um, yeah, you, are you an only child?

30:59Uh, no, I have a brother and a sister, but I'm the oldest. Okay. You're the oldest. And like, were you, was this part of your personality? Like in like middle school? Like, do you, do you see seeds of this? Like, yeah, well, I was kind of, um, I didn't have the greatest childhood, like I had some like trauma and things. And then, uh, um, I didn't go to high school. I went to one year of high school and dropped out and later went to college. Um, that's it. Well, that's interesting. Look at that. Well, yo, let's double click on that. Sure. Well, this is the psychology podcast, you know?

31:30Yeah. Yeah. You got, you know, you get, you got yourself into here now that is so, I won't go, I won't go into traumas. I want to be respectful. Um, but, uh, but the fact that you only had one year in high, so did you, so you never graduated high school? Is that what you're saying? No, I, yeah, um, I kind of snuck into community college, um, and cause they're not like, you know, super checking for, you know, qualifications at the average community college. And, uh, and then, uh, by the time I, I think they realized I didn't have the high school degree, like I was doing pretty well.

32:01I actually liked college. College was very different than high school because I had some freedom. I had freedom of choice and like, oh, you can schedule a class at this time or this time. And, oh, if I want to study this, I can take that. So I liked that kind of thing. Um, and then I transferred to like a four-year institution. And so then I was a transfer student. So I'm like skipping the whole like high school thing. Um, yeah.

32:22I mean, it's amazing what you've, what you've done with your life. And I feel very fortunate. I feel I made some good, some choices that is like this early age that really led to like a branching out later, you know, and like that really, that was the thing. If I didn't, if I hadn't made those choices, like my life would be very, very different. So it's not like, um, oh, I was so smart. It's more like I saw this opportunity and figured this one thing out. So I'm really grateful for that. And I almost did a PhD, but I came to my senses before that. So I stopped at the master's level.

32:54Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. No, I mean, look, you're just, you're such an interesting guy. I've never, never had you on my podcast. And you know, it's like, I want to talk about your art of nonconformity stuff too. It's just like, you know, I've never, I want to like fold in some of your older stuff too. Cause, um, yeah, I see the thread. Uh, I also just think it's so interesting cause like you're, you're known as well in a lot of these productivity spaces. I mean, you're spoken in the same breath as James Clear and Tim Ferriss. Right. And, um, and you've written books about hot, you know, like finding a side hustle, right.

33:26And, and having a startup and business and, and, and, and now here you are kind of writing this book about, um, about it's not, it's not, it's not like time management. It's like, I feel like there's going to be a new word invented, uh, for, to describe what this book is about time freedom. I don't know. I don't know. Um, time on anxiety, like not, not anxiety with time. So, but you're, what you're doing is you're wanting people to change the relationship they have to time. And I feel like that's the essence of this.

33:56That is exactly the essence of it. Yes. Like we need a different relationship with time because what we've been doing, uh, is not helpful. Like what we do is we kind of look to like the time management methods, or here's a new method of getting things done, a new method of productivity and, you know, to tie back to where we started a while ago, it's like, well, then we get really good at doing the wrong things. Um, or we're like seeking relief and ultimately all these steps that we're taking are not going

34:27to provide relief. We're just going to like get to the top of the mountain and realize that we've climbed the wrong mountain. Um, or, or we're just not ultimately going to be very good at these. Like we're going to, sure. We're going to like apply this, this technique, but as I said, the more you do, the more there is to do. So, you know, so you're going to, you're not going to win that war.

34:51Um, we have a lot of mutual interests. Um, one is, uh, I think we're both a bit neurodivergent. Just a little, um, which probably explains our nonconformist lifestyle. I mean, I think there's got to be a correlation there between ADHD in particular, um, and, um, uh, rest, a restlessness or a certain like adventure seeking kind of persona. Um, do you agree? A hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And can you tell people about this event, neurodiversion that you hoped?

35:25Yeah, we need to, I need to have you. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I would love for you to be there next year. Um, we just did the, so neurodiversion it, uh, people can learn about it neurodiversion.org. It is a celebration of neurodivergence. I wanted to create, uh, an event unlike any other. Um, amazing. I used to have a previous event called World Domination Summit in Portland, Oregon. I did it for 10 years. Was that with Jonathan Fields? Yeah. Jonathan was there all 10 years, like 10 years in a row.

35:56Jonathan's my boy. Yeah. Yeah. He's, uh, he's one of my best friends. I talk to him almost every day. Yeah. Um, tell him you talk today. Yeah. Okay. I will. Yeah. I mean, he also started 2008 or maybe it was 2007. He started. Um, so I did that. Yeah. So we did, we did that previous event and loved it. Kind of came to a natural end, like during the pandemic. And, but I really missed hosting events. I like, I like bringing people together and just doing things, you know, just doing like things, big things. And so, um, I talked to, as I was getting more into like the neurodivergent space and

36:29ADHD space, I was talking with people and they're like, there's nothing like there's academic conferences and that's fine, but, um, there's no like community focused events. So, um, so we just did the pilot project in Austin, um, in March, we brought about 300 people together and we're going to do it again next year, bigger and better. Um, and it will be in Austin again, March 20th to 22nd. Um, would love to have you there or maybe the amazing Dr. Scott. Oh yeah.

37:00I'll do, I'll do a show if you want. Yeah, no, I totally want actually. And we talked about a little bit for this one, but the first one, but I was, that was my pilot project. I was like figuring it all out. Well, that's spring break. So I don't have classes during those dates right now. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, no, I would love to have you there. So, yeah, we want to bring people together, um, to, well, to learn, but also just to connect. Um, and I think probably my favorite part about hosting an event like that is when people say like, I feel really seen. I feel like, you know, there's other people here who like think the way I do or see the

37:34world the way that I do. And like, I'm finding community. That's like, that's the reason we do it. So yeah, we'd love you and some of the listeners to be there as well.

37:42Absolutely. I just think that's, uh, it's just so cool that you're doing that. And I've been a big, uh, advocate of neurodiversity, um, before it was so cool to be an advocate. Yeah. You're an OG. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like now it's like really cool to be nerve divergent. It's, uh, like for young people, you know, I, I'm a college professor. So I, um, um, you know, I see what, what the latest trends are and I feel like neurodivergency is trending on TikTok. Yeah. And how do you feel about that? Like I imagine you might have like most, I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, you

38:15have mostly positive feelings about that, but also like obviously some caveats and. Oh, definitely. I wrote an article recently. Um, aren't we all neurodivergent in quotation marks and, uh, saying no or not answering that question is like, no, we need to chill a little bit because an article came out in the UK saying that, uh, every, everyone identifies now as neurodivergent, um, the, the word will kind of lose all its meaning if, if, if everyone is that, but, um, we're all definitely weird

38:46in some way. That's true. You know, but, um, we don't, we're not all, we're not all, you know, wired for ADHD or wired for autism or, um, a whole number of things that, that have traditionally followed under that umbrella. Um, but, uh, it is an interesting question whether or not the term neurodivergent, uh, really like just how, how much we want to include under that umbrella, you know, and that is an interesting question. I would, uh, be humbly say, I did not have the answer.

39:16I do not have the answer that, you know, everyone that feels weird or different, does that mean they're neurodivergent, you know? And, um, I don't have the answer to that, but I'm okay right now, uh, circumscribing it to, uh, uh, a handful of, of, uh, social disorders and, um, other kinds of developmental situations that, uh, make you so out of the norm, um, that it, it actually is a disruption to your life as well as bringing you lots of gifts to your life. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Well said.

39:47That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Um, do you still travel a lot? Have you, have you chilled at all in your exploration drive? I have chilled a little bit. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm still traveling, um, a good bit. I'm going to the Mideast this week. Um, so I'll be there for a little bit. So, but I, I do this like a few times a year. I'll go on like a big trip. I used to be like once a month I was going around, like completely around the world. Um, and I did that for eight years. Um, and I, you know, I still like it, but I also like not traveling.

40:22So, do you think like it ever reached the level of like something like pathological where like you're trying to avoid yourself? Sure. I don't know if, well, pathological, I don't know, but I don't know. It is compulsive, like further back a little bit. Like let's retreat from pathological and call it compulsive. But I would say, yeah, definitely, definitely. No, for sure. Cause I, I speak out of personal experience. I used to feel like wherever I was, I didn't want to be there. You know what I'm saying? Like I need to go to England next week.

40:54I need to go to England. But then I realized it's just like, wherever you go, there you are, you know? Yeah. And, uh, and I was like, Oh, maybe that's the issue. I was wondering if you had like a come to Jesus moment. Like I did about that. I don't think I had a come to Jesus moment, but I did. Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of even knew that at the time that there was this element of, of, um, I really liked the transit of it. I liked, like, I didn't like backtracking. I really hated backtracking, but if I was going in a direction, I mean, it was completely illogical, right? But like, if I was just, if I was traveling, then I felt better.

41:24But then if I stopped, if I stayed in England for, you know, a few days, I'm like, Oh, I got to get, get on. Like what's, where's the next place. Um, so I think that was, that was part of it for sure. For sure. Um, but it was also like, enjoy, enjoyable. It's like, well, what else was I going to do? You know, like, you know, I think that was also like a thing of like, okay, I can see that this, not every element or aspect of this is pure. And at the same time, some of it is. So, you know, what am I going to do? Yeah. And also, uh, you know, you really, you really, uh, have decided you wanted to live life on

41:58your own terms and not, which I wouldn't trade for anything. Well, it was great to get to know you better as a human. I hope you were okay that we spent the last 20 minutes talking about you. Uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I wanted to talk about whatever is helpful or interesting to you and your audience. So let's flip it sometime and talk more about you. I'd love to learn more. Oh, thanks, Kurt. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this can definitely be a to be continued situation. Um, but I wanted to know a little more context behind, you know, what, what leads up to a book like this, this kind of book just doesn't come out of nowhere.

42:28And, uh, uh, uh, and it's part of a long history of, of you, um, trying to think of, uh, outside the box about life and outside the box about, um, kind of societal pressures and expectations. So I see it within a larger context ecosystem of Chris. Um, so, uh, thanks so much for, yeah, cool. Thank you so much for coming to my podcast to discuss this and good luck with the book tour. Awesome, man. Sounds good. Thank you.