End of an Era — Reflections on 11 Years of The Psychology Podcast w/ Annie Murphy Paul

0:00When you've got a one-track mind, you go where the cravings take you. Welcome to Racetrack. Breakfast that satisfies. Snacks that sing. Drinks that refresh.

0:14It's a stop that pulls you in. We don't blame you for having a one-track mind. Because once you stop at Racetrack, no other stop will do. Same time tomorrow? You know it. Racetrack. Whatever gets you going. I want to take this time to recenter, to continue bringing additive value to my audience, and to recharge myself.

0:59When I started this podcast November 16th, 2014, there weren't many psychology podcasts in existence, if any. I was driven by my intrinsic passion for the field of psychology and wanted to put a microphone on the amazing psychological scientists I knew and shine a spotlight on their important work and how it applies to the lives of everyone. Far too often, good scientific research hides in the shadows in peer-reviewed publications, and I wanted to get the word out there about all the incredible work going on. Now it's 2025, and everyone and their mother has a podcast.

1:31And there are so many wonderful psychology-related podcasts in existence now, which is great. So I've decided to take a step back. In this episode, I am interviewed by the acclaimed science writer and author Annie Murphy-Paul about the major lessons I've learned over the years doing this podcast. I think the seven major themes we discuss really do a great job capturing the essence of this podcast, which has always been more about being than doing, creativity over efficiency, self-actualization over achievement, deep fulfillment over fleeting feelings of happiness, and self-transcendence over self-enhancement.

2:07Thanks from the bottom of my heart to all of you for making this podcast possible and for your support over the years. If you feel called, please write a review on iTunes or wherever to let me know what this show has meant to you. I wish you all the very best in your own sacred journey of self-actualization and self-transcendence, and look forward to sharing with you all the next steps in my own journey when it's time. As Michaela Cole so eloquently put it, do not be afraid to disappear from it, from us, for a while, and see what comes to you in the silence.

2:38So without further ado, I bring you Annie Murphy-Paul and the seven biggest insights I've gleaned from doing this podcast, The Psychology Podcast. Scott, the man of the hour, how are you doing? Annie Murphy-Paul. Woo! This is episode 477 of The Psychology Podcast. You were on episode one of The Psychology Podcast in November 16th of 2014.

3:12Wow. So how much has changed since then, right? Yeah, yeah. A lot has changed and a lot has not changed. I re-listened to our episode and I was like, well, it still holds. It's still, it's great. You did great. The science of growing smarter and maintaining, you know, high expectations.

3:35It was really good. That's interesting. Yeah. Huh. Well, you've certainly grown and grown smarter probably in the 11 years since then, right? It's certainly more knowledgeable. Maybe my fluid intelligence has decreased my processing speed, but my crystallized intelligence has increased for sure, my wisdom.

3:58Yeah. Well, before we get into the seven insights that you've sort of pulled together from your 11 years of hosting The Psychology Podcast, I just want to ask you, like, how are you feeling about this project, this long, long-running project coming to an end? I feel really proud of the rich content that I was able to record that will last forever, you know, as long as we have digital capabilities

4:30and humanity. Yeah, I really, this was a really meaningful personal project of mine that started by me just wanting to put the microphone on my colleagues at Penn and then, you know, some of my first guests was you. We had Angela Duckworth as one of my first guests and, you know, I just sort of went to my friends at Penn and I was like, hey, I would love to feature your research. I would really love to get the word out there about what you're doing.

5:00It's so awesome. It really came from this place of a real intrinsic passion for the field of psychology and I didn't really see anything like that at the time in the podcast area. Yeah, you were early, you were early in the podcasting game. Now everyone has a podcast and you're like, it's too, it's too, it's too common. It's too popular. I'm getting out. It's true. I'd like to know what you're doing next because you're obviously, you know, on the cutting edge. Thanks. Well, whatever, whatever I do next is, will be something next level

5:33and it'll be something even better than the psychology podcast. Okay, well, let's start our look back at what you feel like you've learned by talking to all these incredible researchers across 11 years. And one of them, one of the points that you pulled out is certainly not something that you learned on the psychology podcast because I know you were working in this area well before that. One of the seven insights that you pulled out of your 11 years

6:06of doing this podcast, Scott, is that human potential is far broader than standard metrics of IQ or achievement. And, you know, I know that's a theme of your work and you're thinking for many years. How did that play out in the conversations you had on the podcast? I think that's definitely a major theme. Human potential is something that I view as not tied up with your intelligence necessarily as a sole factor.

6:37And I certainly don't think that the extent to which we're achieving human potential is the extent to which we're achieving based on standard metrics of success. You know, like achievement being you have to get accolades or likes on Instagram, you know, in order to really feel like you're achieving your human potential. I think a lot of people feel these days like they're not, they're not maximizing their potential if they're not getting enough as attention as the next person on social media. And, you know, my whole career has really been trying to expand

7:09our notions of what intelligence means as well, what it means to be smart and include a lot of things in the neurodiversity spectrum, you know. Can you remember a particular conversation with a researcher that brought that point out for you?

7:30Oh, boy, you know, I'm going through my head over almost 500 episodes. Yeah, yeah. You were the first one in talking about how to be smarter and your ideas of smarter weren't necessarily tied to IQ. But I'm also just thinking about my own research and I did the Human Potential Lab was a little series within the psychology podcast I did. And I talked about, I did a little lecture on IQ and intelligence and how we need to kind of go beyond the standard metrics.

8:02Yeah. So it's been a common theme that I've tried to interject into almost all my interviews. Yes, yes, yes. Well, this next point is one that's dear to my heart because, you know, I wrote a book about personality testing, the cult of personality. That was a cultural history and scientific critique of personality testing. And your point here is that personality traits are not fixed at transformation is possible and meaningful.

8:34Yes. And you've done work, some of your own work is in the area of personality. Am I right? Yeah, absolutely. So I really like the newer way of we're kind of thinking about personality traits and variation, like as density distributions. So all of us really go throughout the day being all sorts of different levels of a personality trait. So to say you're an introvert doesn't mean that you're an introvert 24-7. Right. You know, you have your extroverted moments.

9:05These are, personality really is just your habitual patterns of states. You know, traits are just habitual patterns of states. But you can change your personality by changing your habitual pattern of states. And that's something I want to make very clear to people. And there's some really exciting personality intervention research. I'm doing it right now with my students at Barnard College personality lecture where I have them choose a particular big five personality trait they want to change.

9:36And I have them use some of these scientifically validated interventions to do a whole bunch of actions to try to change them. Interestingly enough, the one that the trait that's easiest to change is neuroticism. Really? There's, yes. Oh, I'm surprised. I might have thought it would be introversion that you could, you could sort of just change your way of interacting with people and push yourself to get out there a little bit more and end up being more extroverted. But neuroticism- Maybe a different way of phrasing it in terms of the easiest to change is that you see the

10:09largest effects over time. Interesting. People can, there are a lot of things people can do to reduce their anxiety in life and to be more emotionally stable and have emotional regulation techniques. So things like- Meditation, reframe, cognitive reframing, cognitive reappraisal, cognitive distancing, imagining to yourself in a moment, well, you know, 50 years, will this matter? You know, how upset I'm getting right now? Yeah, yeah. So there's a bunch of things there.

10:40But the hardest trait, I think this is interesting, the hardest trait that we've found to really change in the long run and that don't really have such large effects with these interventions is the trait openness to experience, which I think is the trait that's most related to creativity and human flourishing. Why, do you have any ideas, Scott, about why that might be so difficult to change? Well, I don't think, part of that is that psychologists really haven't really done a great job coming up with the right activities and actions to really move the needle on that.

11:14We are much clearer on what you need to do if you want to be more extroverted or be more emotionally stable, more conscientiousness, more conscientious, more conscientious, I should say. Yes. And then, you know, if you want to be more agreeable or more, well, so a lot of my students want, a lot of people want to be less agreeable. That's another thing that a lot of people might want because they're too much of a people pleaser. I see. Um, so it depends on whatever direction you want to go there on that trait, but openness to experience is such a broad trait that, um, it's one that I've studied a long time

11:47in my career and, um, includes not only intellectual curiosity, but, uh, deep, uh, appreciation of the arts and music and be able to get deeply absorbed in, in what you're doing. And, uh, um, it's associated with creativity. It's the number one best predictor of creativity. So it'd be, it'd be important if we could figure out ways of teaching it. Um, but I don't think that anyone's really nailed it yet. Yeah. Interesting. Well, let me ask you, Scott, do you think your pattern of personality traits has changed at all across 11 years of? Oh, absolutely.

12:18Yeah. How? I've definitely become less agreeable. Um, really? Oh yeah. Totally. Why is that? Or how is that? Why and how? Um, I mean, I listened to some of my earlier at, you know, re-listening my episode with you, you know, I was like a little lapdog, you know? Like, oh, Andy, you're amazing. You know, it's like, you know, I don't know. It's just like, I don't know. I don't feel the need to like appease people so much anymore. I really, uh, I'm very, uh, connected to who I am.

12:49And I feel like I, I know who myself, I know myself a lot better than I did 11 years ago. And I don't really need other people to tell me who I am. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay.

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14:18So in your case, becoming a little less agreeable has been a good thing, it sounds like. It's been a very good thing. It's been a very good thing. And, you know, but not so much that, you know, one becomes an asshole. And it's important not to reduce it too much. Some people, they have this like no or Mr. Nice Guy attitude and then they kind of go to the extreme. And that's, everyone can tell that they've overcompensated. You know, just there's, you know, there's just a good, Carl Rogers put it so well in one of his quotes. He said, it's not about being more than you are.

14:50It's not about being less than you are, you know, being self-effacing. It's not about being more than you are and puffing yourself up, you know. It's about really getting in touch with who you truly are and really being comfortable with it. So, yeah, I think I've become more comfortable in my own skin, probably. Yes, we love Carl Rogers, don't we? We do. I was grasping for one of his famous phrases at one time talking to you and you knew it by heart. The one about the paradox. The curious paradox? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you say it? The curious paradox is that once we accept who we are, then we can change.

15:24Right, right. Yes, I love that. I find that to be very true. Well, what you said about how personality traits are really a pattern of states that we often occupy leads us into another point that you've drawn out of your 11 years of hosting the Psychology Podcast, which is long-lasting, meaningful change often depends on habits, systems, and repeated behaviors. Yes. What's your thinking about that?

15:58And we have had some really world-class people on the show who've talked about that over the years, like Art Markman talked about that very early on and how to change your habits. Yeah, I've had James Clear on my podcast, you know, who's definitely blown up. A lot of people, after appearing on my podcast, have blown up. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah. Curious, curious. Yeah. I had Tim Ferriss on in the early days, and he really talked about how he creates very systematic habits.

16:33And so there's something I've learned from a lot of my guests who are maybe a different kind of personality than me, but there's something I can still learn from them. Yeah. I fall more on kind of the dreamy, you know, openness to experience camp, daydreamer, but there's something to be said and a lot to be learned from the kind of personality of the very, like, you know, rigid consistency. You know, they're obsessed with consistency. They're obsessed with results and quantifying themselves.

17:04Yeah. And I think that if you do want to make long-lasting changes, it's good to have a plan. I think that is very good. I've discovered that to be very beneficial in my own personal life. It's good to know when you're making progress and to have these kind of smart goals, as they're called. Yeah. Can you think of a habit that you worked to change, you know, over the past 11 years? Oh, what a great question. Um, well, um, exercise, um, uh, has been something I've gone into, especially living in LA.

17:38Yeah. That's the only way to date in LA is to look good. Whereas in New York, it's, they care about my brain. Uh, it's, there's a very, very clear difference between dating in New York and LA, but anyway, you didn't come on the psychology podcast to talk about my dating life. Well, I'm wondering what worked for you in terms of making exercise a regular habit. Um, it's fun. It's, it, it, you know, it feels good to intrinsic motivation. Yeah. I mean, it feels, it feels like you're conquering something.

18:10Even if you don't conquer anything else that day, you know, if you get up, I get up and I usually work up in the, out in the morning and then I'm like, you know what? I don't need to do anything else today. Like I did something today. I mean, of course I, there's other things I need to do, but I'm saying, you know, at least I conquered one, one small thing today. Um, uh, it feels good to be healthy, um, and to, uh, feel vital and alive, um, in terms of, um, habits, uh, and personality. Uh, it's like, it's a really interesting question.

18:42I'm like, 11 years is kind of flashing before my eyes. Um, I think I've just really chilled out a lot. I mean, it might've been a lot of the old marijuana I did in Santa Monica on the beach, but. So you're less anxious, you would say, or less, uh, I'm so, I think I've lowered my neuroticism levels, maybe 50%. Wow. Since 2014. Yeah. Since we started. Absolutely. I mean, when I moved in Philadelphia at the time at Penn and I would, I would just walk around in a state of constant, uh, anxiety and panic attacks.

19:16And, um, you know, I, it's very, the idea of a panic attack is so foreign to me now and it feels so far away. It doesn't feel like I, let me put it this way. It feels like I really can nip things in the bud more emotionally. Uh, things don't spiral downward automatically anymore. Um, like they used to. And I think that was a big change. Yeah. I feel that I've seen that change in knowing you, Scott, that you're way more chill now. Yeah. Yeah. Less, less worried about things.

19:48More kind of going with the flow. Yeah. Well, it's true. I mean, I might even say that I'm pretty emotionally stable now. I wouldn't, you know, even, I wouldn't even say I'm neurotic anymore, which is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Considering that that was a big part of my identity for so many years. Yeah. Yeah. Was there something there that was especially helpful? Do you meditate? Do you? Well, I, I, I do think living in California for five years. And, uh, and yeah, getting into meditation and, uh, living in such a chill environment

20:21helped, um, coming back to New York is, is an interesting experience for me, but. You really perceive a lot of differences between those two places, huh? They're like night and day. Scott, I want to talk, I want to turn to, um, another point that you've drawn from your 11 years of hosting the psychology podcast. That is, I know very near and dear to your heart, which is creativity. And this idea that creativity is a really vital dimension of, of human flourishing. And I, it's been such a, a consistent thread in your work, you know, and your thinking.

20:56And I wonder why, if you could talk a little bit about why you feel creativity is so important and so valuable. I think creativity is everything, you know, uh, to be able to bring into existence things that have not existed before is, uh, is, is, we do that automatically just by existing. And, um, I think to be alive is a creative experience. Um, and, you know, well, Freud said, uh, love and work, work and love are the cornerstones

21:27of humanness. I think, uh, I don't think work is a cornerstone of humanness. I think creativity is. I think it's, uh, if I may modify Freud, I think it's love and creativity, love and creativity are the, are the things, uh, to live, to live a good life. Um, you know, feeling, uh, love for an activity you're doing or for a human, you know, um, uh, but really, uh, having that, uh, that sense of, uh, aliveness usually is correlated

21:57with a sense of you're creating things of value in the world. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What I like about your approach to creativity is that you don't seem to feel that it's restricted to, you know, artists or writers or musicians, but that all of us humans are, are, are creative in a sense. Do you agree with that? Yes. I don't think, uh, creativity is limited to a particular field of study. Um, there might be some fields where we don't want intense creativity like pilots, um, but,

22:30um, or tax, uh, accountants, but, um, nevertheless, if we do view creativity as divergent thinking and the ability to come up with lots of solutions to a problem, maybe we do, uh, want that everywhere. We want the, uh, the potential, the, the, the, the ability for divergent thinking, not just convergent thinking, which is the ability to come up with a one-way answer. Um, and also, uh, with divergent thinking, a lot of, um, a big part of divergent thinking is being able to come up with the problem in the first place, knowing what, being able

23:04to see that there's a problem. Um, there are a lot of problems that people don't even see as problems. Wow. That's interesting. And, uh, I do think creative people are very good at, uh, at, at picking up on that. At identifying problems. Interesting. Yeah. Steve Jobs was good at that. Yeah. Yeah. Do, do, did you feel that putting together your podcast was a creative endeavor? Oh, absolutely. We set first. I mean, it was such a, uh, uh, a new thing in the podcast space. Right. You know, I mean, there was a, there was a period of years where it felt very fresh and

23:38it felt very, um, uh, something special, you know, um, uh, now, like you said, everyone and their mother has a podcast and psychology content is, well, everyone's a psychologist. I mean, I see so many people who are just so much more, uh, famous than I am on Instagram who are not legit psychologists just talking about everything they know. We, we, interestingly enough, you know, it's interesting when I, when I got into this and

24:09I created this, I wanted it to really show why expertise matters and really shine a spotlight on a lot of my, a lot of nerds who are, who are having their head down in the laboratory and are doing careful work. It feels like these days we're living in the age of everyone's an expert, if that makes sense. Yeah. Everyone, uh, just all you have to have is confidence and, and that what you're saying is true and that's enough to, uh, for others to really take you seriously. Um, and it's, it's, you know, no, no shade, but it's, uh, it's just, it's an observation.

24:43Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, well, I think it's been, that's one of the great things about your podcast is that for those who want, those listeners who want evidence-based, you know, uh, experimentally generated evidence, you know, of, of what we're, of these ideas behind what these ideas that we're talking about, yours, your podcast has always been a place to go for that. Well, thank you. I, that certainly was the intention.

25:13Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, you know, just back to this question of your podcast as a creative enterprise, did you feel like you at first were figuring out how to talk to your guests and then eventually you settled into like a kind of, um, a pattern or, um, you know, a, a, a practice that, that at first you were doing your best to work out? Yes. I learned on the fly, you know, it's not like I went to a podcasting school, um, and

25:45there weren't that many other examples out there. Um, I, I just committed myself to being myself, you know, my quirky, you know, self and, um, and authentic, you know, really matter to me. Um, and I started, uh, you know, if I may be so bold to say, I, I felt like I had a knack for it. I felt like, uh, it suited me, you know, um, to get out of the laboratory and have conversations and show my enthusiasm for science and psychology. I love being a public science communicator.

26:16And I, uh, many years, uh, concomitant with my podcast, I wrote a popular blog at scientific American psychology at first and then scientific American. And so it all kind of fed into each other. It was a very nice period of my life. Yeah. I think it was, it's always been apparent that you were enjoying yourself. You know, you were very interested and engaged and eager to talk to these people. And I think that really showed, you know, yeah, it's always one reason that I've enjoyed your podcast.

26:47Um, yeah. Um, so another point that you make about, uh, or, uh, that you've pulled out of, of what you've learned across hosting the psychology podcast is that emotional intelligence, vulnerability, and having self-compassion for your dark side is important. Um, and I, I would love to hear you talk about the dark side. I know you've done work on, um, well, you know, not, not so much the dark triad, but

27:17the light triad. Am I saying it right? Is it triad? Triad, triad. Um, so I'm sort of, I'm sort of curious what you might have to say about the dark side. What, what, why having self-compassion for our dark side is important. Yeah, I've done, I've done quite a lot of research in both the light triad and the dark triad, um, in order to validate our light triad, we had to do a lot of research on the dark triad. Yeah. And I, and I think that, uh, the point there is that you often see goodness in its contrast to the opposite.

27:49You know, I don't know, uh, if the concept of evil makes a lot of sense or if we can really define it, but, um, in try, in my attempts to, um, to, to see what, uh, what the light side of personality is, um, yeah, we really took a deep dive into, um, traits such as narcissism, uh, Machiavellianism, manipulating others, psychopathy. Um, when I talk about, when we talk about the dark side, we also think about things like just depression or thinking about anxiety.

28:21Um, the field of positive psychology calls them negative emotions and they contrast that with positive emotions such as contentment and joy and happiness. But I don't really like the artificial labeling of certain emotions as, uh, negative and others as positive. I think that we have emotions that are uncomfortable. We have emotions that are comfortable, you know, or some emotions that are ecstatic, you know? Um, that we, we, I'd like talking about the experience more and, and really understand

28:54how all these emotions really can, um, uh, can be positive in certain contexts. Um, uh, my colleague, Todd Kashtin and, uh, uh, and, and, and Robert Biswas-Diener, um, uh, uh, uh, wrote a, a great book together on, uh, the upside of your dark side. And, uh, Todd was on the early days, uh, in my, on my podcast talking about the, uh, dancing with your dark side, I think is what we titled the episode. Uh, and yeah, and, uh, I really agree with that perspective that, um, being able to, that

29:28there are many things we can do to, um, in, to acknowledge, accept, um, and so have self-compassion for the size of ourself that we may have shame over or the, um, uh, or we, or that make us feel uncomfortable. Uh, there's, uh, this idea of, uh, the handshake practice with your beautiful monsters as Sharon Salzberg talked about on my podcast and she talked about her work, uh, um, from, um, from, uh, very, it's a very Buddhist concept and, um, you know, I was in charge of that in a

30:04cordial way with your monsters, your inner demons. Yeah. You say, you know, I see you, um, uh, and a lot of these, uh, Richard Schwartz also, uh, Dick Schwartz, who's on my podcast, we talked about his approach and, um, there's this idea of, you know, you welcome them in, you, you ask them, what do they want? You know, what, what kind of role are they trying to, to, to play in, in your inner, in your inner life, um, or in your outer life as well?

30:35I don't know what they try to play in your either. And, um, uh, Mark Brackett, who was, who's been on a couple of times, I believe, talking about dealing with your feelings and, um, emotional intelligence. Um, I would include as a component of all this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if I may ask Scott is what aspect of your dark side have you developed compassion for? Oh, lots of aspects. Um, you know, I look at a lot of my prior suffering, uh, with, uh, with a real compassionate lens.

31:08And, um, I don't, you know, there are things that'd be so easy for me to like watch earlier interviews and just cringe and it's, it'd be easy to do that. It'd be easy to do that. Um, cause there's lots of things I've done that are cringe worth. Um, and I don't think that's, uh, the relationship I want to have with my prior self. So I think that, uh, you know, being able to kind of watch versions of me that were in

31:40development, um, but we're also trying my best, um, with the limited knowledge I had at the time about limited wisdom, you know, we're always limited in our wisdom is, uh, you know, just with a heavy heart and, uh, just, uh, with a lot of love and, um, you know, like really, I love that quirky guy. And, uh, uh, I'm also glad that I learned a lot of lessons and I've also been able to, um, you know, uh, step into new versions of myself.

32:11Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, one of the words in that phrase that, that the point that I, that I made was we talked about emotional intelligence. We talked about self-compassion for the dark side. And the third point there was vulnerability and something that's always struck me about you, Scott, is that you're very in tune with your vulnerability. You're very open about it. You share it, which I think is such a gift, you know, in a culture in which vulnerability is often covered over with a, you know, image of everything's, everything's great.

32:45Everything's, you know, I've got every, I've got, I'm on top of everything, you know, and I've, I've always felt like you've been brave enough to share that you're, you know, a vulnerable human being. I really appreciate that, Annie. Um, you know, that, that means a lot to me. I'm not one of these, you know, I'm not going to name names, but like, well, he's like, they're these polished, you know, self-help gurus that just never seem to have, say any,

33:16everything is so perfect. You know, every hair is always in place perfectly. Everything they say is perfect. Everything they say, their audience, they get a million people being like, you're a genius that you said something, you know, so banal. Um, but it's like, um, do you know what I mean? I do. I do. And I just, that's just not me. And, uh, and I just want to be me, you know? Yeah.

33:45So, uh, uh, a sixth point that, um, you pulled out of your 11 years to hosting the podcast, Scott, is that relationships, connection, and social context matter and continually shape our minds. So we've been talking a lot about sort of individual traits and states here, but relationships, they're so important. Could you talk a little bit about how that's, that theme has played out across your years hosting the podcast? Yes. Um, the idea of, um, relationships playing a huge role in our human flourishing and our

34:23contentment in life is backed by so much research. Um, a lot of people might, from Sonia Lubomirsky, um, who's been on the podcast, um, uh, to again, Sharon Salzberg, you know, talking about, uh, love and connection and having, uh, uh, open heart, uh, there, there's just so much exciting research on that. Um, uh, my, my, my head's going through, there's so many people who have, you know, we had, uh, um, Ben Ryan, uh, who was on recently talking about the neuroscience of social connection,

34:56Cassie Killam, uh, who's, uh, really talked about the importance of social connections and yeah. So Cassie, yeah, is rocking that. And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's been a really big theme repeating over and over again on this podcast, uh, that it's inescapable. Um, uh, and it's not just feeling a sense of belonging, but it's also, I like to distinguish between a belonging and a sense of belonging and a sense of intimacy or relatedness where, um, you and the other person, there's a real mutuality there, um, a real, um, uh, growth,

35:32mutual growth on both ends, uh, with belonging, you may feel like you belong to something, um, uh, a group, an organization, a political, you know, thing, or, and, uh, you go to a meeting and you dissent, you know, or say, I don't think I agree with the, the party line here. And they say, you're out, you know, that's not a relationship. That's not a relationship. So, um, yeah, I think a lot of people are obsessed with belonging and the need to belong, you know, like DEI, belong, belong, belong. I think that, um, you know, not just belonging, but connection matters a lot too.

36:05Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that the, you know, all the research on the importance of relationships has affected you in terms of how you, you know, prioritize relationships or how you spend your time?

36:20Oh, yes. I mean, for sure. I mean, I, I treasure my friends. I mean, you know, of course. And, um, there's just nothing better than, than just getting together, uh, with your friends and, uh, who, with your particular type of friend, you know, a friend who accepts all of you, you know, and, and I do have friends like that, you know, shout out Jordan Feingold, Dan Lerner, Krista Stryker.

36:50There are, yeah, there, yeah, yeah. There are people in my life, you know, where just, they just let me be me. You know, they, well, not only that, they admire it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And vice versa. Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, this last point that you've pulled out is just so Scott, you know, it's such the essence of, of SBK. And, um, so, uh, I'll read it here. The ultimate aim of psychological insight is not just to fix problems, but to orient life

37:22toward growth, meaning, and connection. And this really makes me think of your, um, your book, Ascend, right? Is that, was that the title? Transcend. Transcend. Transcend. Transcend, sorry, that, um, was, was building on Maslow's work. Could you talk a little bit about that? I really, that was a strand of your work that I especially, yeah. It resonates for me. Thanks. Thanks, Annie. Yeah. You know, the questions of what is a good life, uh, have, uh, permeated my consciousness for a long time.

37:53I really liked the humanistic psychology way of thinking about it. Um, they really focus on being over doing, um, and focus on what really matters. You know, what really matters, what really makes us feel whole and, uh, alive, experientially alive is, is, is what the humanistic psychology really interested in understanding and, and knowing. And yeah, in my book, Transcend, I re-imagined Maslow's hierarchy of needs from a static pyramid

38:23that he never drew, um, to a sailboat that's dynamic, you know, the sailboat metaphor needs the Kaufman sailboat metaphor where you, you know, you're, you're, you're moving in the ocean and, uh, or the sea of life and waves could come crashing down on you at any time. There could be winds, you don't know what's going to happen once you open that sail and you start moving towards your desired port. But if you don't have a clear vision of what port you want to sail to, you know, you're not going to be moving in that direction at all. And so it's very important to have a very clear vision of where you want to go, have a

38:56purpose, um, and move with purpose. Live your, live, live your purpose. Yes. Day in and day out. Yeah. Stay true to your values. Um, and, uh, and also acknowledge that we have, uh, basic needs that sometimes we may have day or days where we need to close that sail and focus on just plugging the holes in the boat. And that's, and that's okay. And that's okay.

39:22You, you seem like someone who's very much living his purpose, Scott. I mean, would you, if you had to put your purpose in a sentence, how would you, what would you say? Well, I really want to empower all people, um, to realize their higher potential. I mean, it's really as simple as that. Um, there's nothing more exciting, uh, to me than, uh, when I have a coaching client, I created a form of coaching in recent years called self-actualization coaching, where we

39:53really help people get in touch with the most alive, unique, creative center of their being is the way I put it. It's also, uh, uh, uh, the, that, that's how Karen Horny put it. Uh, one of my favorite, uh, psychoanalysts, neo-psychoanalysts who really challenged Freud, but, um, uh, yeah. So I think really helping people get in touch with that unique center of their being. Um, and there's nothing more exciting to me than when I, when, you know, I, I see someone have this aha moment of, uh, wonder, uh, and all within themselves that, at what they

40:26already have within them, you know, or they're, they see a higher possibility for themselves and maybe they didn't see it in themselves or maybe other people didn't see it in them, but, um, they, they see it in themselves. And I think that, uh, to enable all people to have that is, um, you know, that's my purpose. Yeah. Yeah. That's, and that has been from your very first, what was ungifted your first book? That was my first book for a general audience. Yeah. I mean, that was really about, as you said, recognize, being able to recognize strengths

40:57and talents in oneself, even when other people haven't, you know, really powerful. That's true. So I feel seen. You feel seen. So looking back across 11 years of the podcast, Scott, I know you were saying like, there's been so many guests. Are there a few moments that stick out to you? Some, something that, uh, a guest said that really has, is still ringing in your ears or that you, you know, you, you find yourself repeating or, or remembering.

41:28Can you think of any moments that really stand out? You know, look, after so many episodes, what starts to remain are these threads that we discussed today, I'll be honest, the individual people is, you know, as, as much as we want to think all of us are going to, it's our name that, you know, our monuments going to last. Is that really what's most important? You know, it's, it's the fact that I, you know, we've had, I've had over the years, so

41:59many, I would say every single one of my guests over four, you know, I don't want to single out anyone here in this, in this, the ending of this, of this episode, I want to make the point that they've all significantly contributed to the canon of truth. Um, and these patterns that we talked about today, I think are, you really nailed it, you know, the, the seven, um, really form the clusters. If you did a factor analysis of all the episodes, which is a nerdy statistical technique. Um, these are the major themes, um, this podcast has, has covered and that stand out to me,

42:33um, as, um, as the message, uh, that I think taken together from everyone, the collective knowledge of 470, well, I guess this is episode 478 of the psychology podcast. Wow. Wow. That's a lot. That's a lot. Well, I, I want to ask you, Scott, about what's next for you, but not necessarily in terms of specific projects. I, I want to know, what are you excited about? What do you want to find out still?

43:04You know, I know there's so many, so many, so much left to be discovered. What, what are you excited about and thinking about in terms of the future? Well, one thing is taking my self-actualization coaching program in new directions. We, we're continuing to train coaches and we have a six month certification program, but I want to branch out into other areas like education, um, having teachers view themselves as, uh, self-actualization coaches and managers. Um, so in the business world, um, getting increasingly interested in the future of leadership, um, and particularly human centered leadership.

43:37And I have a edited book I'm doing with Chris Shipley, uh, coming out next year on the future of human, of, of leadership. Yeah. Really, uh, in the age of AI and in the age of such uncertainty, um, what does it look like where we keep our humanity, you know? Um, and I also have been really getting into mentalism and magic, and so, uh, I'm still trying to figure out ways of incorporating my mentalism, uh, burgeoning skills into my keynote speeches and performances and things to really inspire people to, uh, realize the

44:07depths of their human potential. Yeah. You know, I'm not sure I know what mentalism is exactly. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? It's mind reading. Mind reading? Uh, no, well, you know, uh, the, the field of, uh, mentalism is a sub-branch of magic that includes, uh, your ability to make predictions about what someone is going to think, um, your ability to read their minds of what they're currently thinking and the ability to influence what they're going to think and influence. So it's those three areas.

44:39Um, now is the mind reading literally you're going in their brain, you're reading their thoughts? No, but, uh, you, there's deep complex methods, um, and various things that you combine to give the appearance of real mind reading and real magic. And at the end of the day, the most exciting thing is, uh, being able to create a sense of awe and wonder in people and let them see that things that seem impossible, uh, are actually possible. And that's, uh, the thing that excites me the most about the field of mentalism.

45:12Oh, that's so cool. Um, well, you're, will the podcast interviews continue to be available after? Yes, the psychology podcast will still be available, the whole back catalog and, um, what happens to the feed and what happens next, uh, to the podcast, uh, will be, uh, revealed at some point.

45:38Well, Scott, it's been such a pleasure talking to you about your 11 years hosting the psychology podcast. I want to congratulate you on the achievement of all those years of wonderful interviews that you've been bringing to people. And thank you for allowing me to be your first guest and your last guest. It's, it's been a real honor for me. Thank you, Annie. Thank you for being my first and last guest of this iteration of life. Um, you know, you may be a guest, you may, you may be the first guest of something else.

46:13You never know. Um, yeah, but, uh, you know, life is, uh, is a funny thing. It's, it's simultaneously growth oriented and cyclical, if you know what I mean. Well, the ascending spiral, that's the, the, the, that I like, you keep returning to the same things, but hopefully at a more evolved. That's right. And that's, that's, you know, maybe some people argue that's multiple lives as well and not just the point of this life, but that may take us to another realm for, for a different

46:44podcast. Um, uh, any, it, it, it's been such an honor talking to you today and I love these themes. They really do a great job capturing the spirit and essence of the psychology podcast. And I want to really thank the listeners, um, who made it all possible for so many years who've supported it. Um, and, uh, yeah, my, my, uh, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much, uh, to everyone for, um, yeah, making this podcast possible. And, uh, I did it all for you guys.

47:17Thanks, God.