Why Brains Need Friends w/ Dr. Ben Rein

0:00There's a measured psychopathy, I guess you could say, embedded in the human brain, right? You need to disengage sometimes when it's important for your survival. But, you know, nowadays, I think that these systems are being taken advantage of, I think, and we're really starting to see this disengagement from people who really should stay in our good graces. I think that I see a lot of this in families, you know, it's heartbreaking to see, you know, families fracture because they disagree politically, you know, and I hate to talk about politics, too, because it's controversial and people get upset about it. But, you know, it's reality. And I'm not here to preach anything, but to just share the neuroscience on it, that like this is a real significant phenomenon that's affecting our country and affecting our brains.

0:43Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today, we have Ben Rine on the show. Dr. Rine is a neuroscientist at Stanford University and a renowned science communicator. Dr. Rine has spent over a decade studying the neuroscience of social interactions and has written a book on the topic called Why Brains Need Friends, The Neuroscience of Social Connection. In addition to being a researcher, Dr. Rine also has a popular Instagram page where he makes scientific findings accessible and interesting.

1:15In this episode, we discuss why humans need social interaction, why we are becoming more isolated, and how social interaction affects the mind and brain. We also discuss the neurobiology of empathy and whether it's possible to become more empathetic. I found this episode really honest and also hopeful. I've been following Ben on Instagram for a while now, and I really appreciate the care he takes in being scientifically informed and conveying the information in an accessible manner. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Ben Rine.

1:46Dr. Rine, it's so great to have you on the Psychology Podcast. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and great to meet you. Yeah, I'm a long-time admirer of your work on Instagram. Likewise. That's why it's exciting to be here. Yeah, yeah. You do a really great service for public science communication, and you're also a scientist. Can you talk a little bit about your research, actually, and where you're at? Yeah, sure. Sure. So I've always been interested in social interaction, and luckily I found my space in science.

2:19First in my PhD, studying the neurobiology of autism, and then in my postdoc working at Stanford, I got to study the neurobiology of empathy, and specifically how MDMA, the drug ecstasy, enhances empathy in the brain. So that was a whole lot of fun. And ever since I wrapped up my postdoc, I've been doing some teaching. I'm an adjunct at Stanford. I teach a class on science communication. I'm also planning to get some things going elsewhere at other universities. I'm trying to get science communication built into graduate-level coursework.

2:50I think all scientists should have some level of training in how to not just do great research but explain that research to the public because that part is lacking, and I think it benefits science, it benefits society, it benefits everybody if scientists can speak clearly. So I want to get more of that going. I really agree, obviously. And I also think that the science of social connection, like understanding that, can also help you understand how to be a better science communicator on social networks.

3:22You know, when you're not just talking science, you're trying to resonate in some way with another human, which is what you often do when you try to make friends. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because I've thought a little bit about that. Someone once told me, because like I said, I study empathy, and, you know, I'm not one to claim to say, oh, I'm empathic or I'm an empath or whatever, but someone once told me, they invited me for a talk, and they were like, you know, you're a scientist who really embodies what they study. So I can tell you're an empathic person.

3:52I was like, oh, it's really interesting. Like I wonder how much of my interest in studying empathy has something to do with, you know, its involvement in my life. And ever since then, I've been thinking that, you know, empathy is really important for teaching. In order to help someone understand something, you need to really wrap your head around their mind space and how it differs from yours and fill in those gaps. And, yeah, I guess I try to put that to use on social media when I make my videos. Yeah, for sure. You do. You do. So you have a new book called Why Brains Need Friends, The Neuroscience of Social Connection.

4:27And, well, first of all, congratulations on your first book. Thank you. I mean, that's a big milestone in your life, personally, I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure it'll make an impact on the world, too. I hope so. It's definitely a, you know, of course, a huge project. And it just so happens that the timing of the publication, which is October 14th, is also very coincidental with the launch of my first daughter, which is due. She's due October 29th. So October is going to be a busy month.

4:58I'm expecting a lot of changes in my life. So, yeah, it's been an interesting period of my time. Okay. Double congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Well, what are three hard truths about our social lives? Let's start there. Yeah, sure. So, all right. We keep hearing that we are becoming more isolated, right? That's the first hard truth. You know, we've heard it on the news. We've heard it in podcasts like this. We heard about the loneliness epidemic. And we need to recognize that we are living in an increasingly fractured society, which is obviously bad or maybe not obviously bad, but it is bad.

5:37And, of course, the reason for that is multifold, right? We could say it's COVID induced all this isolation and we've never recovered. We could say social media is isolating us, you know, remote work, whatever you name as the cause. There's no doubt about it. We are spending less time together. The data show that, you know, people's lived experiences show that. And right now, I would actually encourage any listeners to think about five years ago, you know, 2020, before COVID all set in, early 2020, how often were you seeing friends and how does that compare to right now?

6:08Because what I believe has happened is that during COVID, we spent a few years in this isolation period and our brains predictions changed. We got used to seeing our friends basically never. And so our expectations for how much we how much social contact we should expect went down. And I think we've sort of kept some of that with us. And I think also it's like, you know, I used to go to the gym, but now I do a Peloton at home with people on the screen or I used to go to the grocery store and talk to the butcher or whatever. And now I just order my groceries on Instacart.

6:40And there's so many places where interactions have been replaced that I think for most people, if you really dig in and think about it, you'll recognize that this hard truth. Number one is true, that we are in an increasingly divided world. Number two, second hard truth is that division is the enemy of brain health. When it comes to the health and function of your brain, not just your brain, but your body to social interaction is super, super valuable. And I'm sure we'll get to the biology of why that is in a little bit. And then the third hard truth that I want people to understand is that, yes, COVID and remote work and Instacart and all these things may be dividing us.

7:17But we also should recognize that our brains have these internal pitfalls. And I don't think these have really reached the, you know, modern information ecosystem as much. You know, the Surgeon General hasn't put out a notice. Hey, you know, we have these evolutionary built evolutionarily built in pitfalls in our brain that prevent us from connecting with others. But that is true. And there are many reasons why people often hold back from interaction that are basically built on years and years. I'm talking hundreds of thousands, millions of years of historical precedent of how humans used to interact that is totally not accurate anymore.

7:53So those are my three hard truths. So to summarize, in a sentence, not a sentence, a word, what are the three? Okay. I can't do it in a word, but I'll do it in a sentence. Number one, we are super isolated. Isolation. Number two, isolation is bad for brain health. Yeah. And number three, the world is to blame, but we are also internally to blame, all of us. And not us, our decisions, but the way we are built. Gotcha. Gotcha.

8:24Yeah. So you're already picking up on some really, really profound themes about human nature. It looks like you also take an evolutionary perspective. I do. On social psychology and social dynamics, which I like. I like that for sure. Yeah, it's true. Back in the Savannah days, Savannah desert days, I mean, there was real consequences. When you're in small vans, real, real serious consequences for being shunned from the group.

8:54You know, I feel like we still feel that way if we're shunned by a couple of people on social media, even though it's a couple of people out of how many billion on the planet. You know, we take it so like the same kind of thing, you know, same kind of feeling. And so does that cause us, you know, just to double click on the pitfalls thing, does it, the way our brain is wired in that way, as you point out, does it cause us to, to avoid and to fear the very relationships that will probably contribute to our growth?

9:25Yeah, I mean, everybody, I don't want to say everybody, there's no absolutes in science or the world. Most people definitely struggle with fear of rejection. Nobody wants to, you know, you go to college, it's your first semester, you're trying to make friends. And you're like, hey, my roommate seems like a pretty cool person, maybe I should befriend them. And nobody wants to be like, hey, you want to hang out this Friday and get shot down. And like just and then you're stuck in this awkward situation, you're living with them. You know, that's a very particular example.

9:55But similarly, like there are studies now talking about the science. There are studies where people are invited to interact with strangers, for example, in public settings, like on a train or a bus, you know, on a commute. And these are like, yes, they are scientific studies, but these are real world situations. It's not like a fake laboratory. So if someone gets on the bus, they're told to go interact with a stranger, have a conversation, see how it makes them feel. And people predicted that over 50 percent of the time they would get rejected and across hundreds of trials, 0 percent of the time where they rejected the stranger never said no to a conversation.

10:31And that right there is one of our internal pitfalls that we expect to be rejected for some reason. Maybe it's just, you know, maybe it's not so much that we always expect to be rejected as much as it is we don't want to subject ourself to the risk of being rejected because it's uncomfortable. And so we hold back. Yeah, yes. And is that finding also revealing that people don't say no when they even when they want to say no because they're trying to be polite?

11:07Is it is there also we don't know that way? I mean, they didn't they didn't ask or do interviews, but I think that would be an interesting additional sort of debriefing. Yeah. Yeah. To see what percentage of those who said yes, I would like I'm OK with that actually internally was like, no. Right. Yeah. I mean, good question. I will say this in those studies, they did ask the stranger at the end of the conversation. Hey, how how did this experience go for you? And people said, oh, it made me feel better.

11:38I actually enjoyed the conversation, even though I didn't start it. Someone approached me, but I feel better now. You know, my mood is improved a little bit. But yeah, I mean, there's there's a variety of ways you could be approached by a stranger on a train. So a lot of the time the impulse might be, oh, gosh, what is going on here? And there's just like there's so much so many there's male female dynamics. And does that moderate anything? And, you know, there's the individual differences researcher in me is like thinking of 50 other control variables.

12:12But I guess. Yeah. But you're finding it in itself is very valuable. Well, 100 percent. And I think to tie the neuroscience into it as for, you know, why the that's why it's warranted to say interaction is good for you is because the brain has these built in social reward systems. Like because of the Savannah days, you mentioned that, you know, being in a small group or being on your own was a risk to survival a long, long time ago. And so being in larger groups is always good.

12:42And so evolutionarily, humans were the humans who are more social, who liked existing in groups were favored. And so because of this, the brain had our human brains, our social brains, we have these social reward systems where being around others essentially drives the release of neurotransmitters that are rewarding and reinforcing like dopamine, oxytocin, which keep us held together. Back then it was for the sake of our survival. But now the consequence of that might be when we talk to a stranger on the train, we actually feel pretty good, even though we might not expect to.

13:13Yeah. Yeah. I also think that there could have, there could be an interesting study where you find that the large majority did not want to say yes, but then they at the end said, I'm glad I said yes. So you find a finding there too. You actually, there's some research on introverts showing that they often tend to enjoy social interactions more than they predict they will. So I'm just thinking of the parallel to that, to this scenario. Yeah. They actually did. They did that. So not with the stranger, right? Because there's two people. There's the person who the research scientists told, go talk to someone. And then there's the victim, you know, on the other end.

13:53Yeah, right, right. But the people who were, you know, really engaged with the scientists, they asked them to predict what the interaction would do for them and how it would impact their commute to work. And they 100% of the time under predict or set the expectations lower. They thought it was going to have like no impact. And then in the end, they felt a lot better when they got off the train. But now, again, even further, you know, group differences come into play about introverts versus extroverts. I don't, I don't remember them doing that analysis of that breakdown.

14:26But, but I have definitely come into contact with the studies you're talking about, where you take an introvert, you take a super extreme introvert, you throw them into a group conversation for 10 minutes, and you say, act extroverted, be as outgoing, assertive, you know, dynamic, expressive as you can. And at the end of it, they're like, that actually felt really good. But if you ask the same person to do that for a week, by the end of the week, they're like, please release me from this experiment. I need to be free. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very good, good way of putting that. Well, like, like, I don't think we really, really got to why social interactions are such a, why is it a such a strong human need? Why is it? Why is it so important to have friends?

15:11Yeah, I mean, again, I take an evolutionary viewpoint on this. And, you know, it's, it's truly a matter of survival. And you can forget about humans for a second. Let's look at a different species. Let's take ourselves out of it. And let's look at like a mouse, right? If you're a single mouse, and you're out in the wild, and you're being hunted by like a snake, would you rather be by yourself? Or would you rather be with a group of a colony? Maybe we should say of 20 or 30 mice, you know, probably it's going to be beneficial for the sake of your survival if you're in a group, because maybe you're I don't know really about how how well mice fight, but and if they could like take on a snake, but at least being in a group, you're more likely to survive because you're probably going to get away.

15:55And then, you know, or there's a one in 20 chance of you dying versus the others getting hunted. So it's beneficial. Humans are just the same, but we're way more socially evolved than mice, we have all sorts of incredible features, you know, just for example, the whites of the eyes, you know, the fact that there's a dark inner part of the eye, and then the white part around the outside, most animals don't have that the white parts called the sclera. And because it's white, we can tell where someone's looking. So just by interacting with someone, you know, you're talking to someone, and these start looking down at your, at your pants, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, is my zipper open, like, something as small as that you can read someone's mind. That's super helpful for when you're, you know, there's five of you, and you're in a battle with a predator. And you can tell what the others are thinking just by looking at their face. And we have eyebrows and all sorts of things like this, that make us so adapt at working together. And so that is so crucial, because the, you know, when it comes to evolution, and take evolution out of it, when you talk about life, period,

16:55humanity and the world comes from, the name of the game is survival, you have to survive. And being in groups is how we survive best. And so these, these systems are meant to really reinforce us to be around others, the brain systems, I mean, and on the other hand, you know, think about that mouse, you get Oh, and by the way, I should have said this mice are social animals, too. And so they also have social reward systems in their brains. But if you're the mouse, and you get, you know, exiled from your colony, your colony, for some reason, you make an insulting joke at one of the matriarch mice, and they kick you out, and you're on your own, you should have some signal that tells you, this is bad, get back to your group, right? You are probably going to die on your own. And since social or since humans are also social animals, our brains should have the same signal. And that signal is isolation induced stress, being isolated, being away from others is stressful. And it

17:55creates a it induces a stress response in the body, it drives cortisol release. And, you know, of course, people feel bad, increased anxiety, depression, all sorts of negative consequences. And that's another indication of how important it is to be around others. Because I believe that this is an evolutionary system that it's it's our brains telling us, you know, alarms are on, get back to your tribe, or you might die. Hi, y'all. I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self-actualize. In the service of that, I just had a new book come out called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential.

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19:11Foundations of Self-Actualization Coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence-based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential. You can learn more about the course and register by going to CenterForHumanPotential.com slash S-A-C. That's CenterForHumanPotential.com slash S-A-C. Okay, now back to the show. Well, you made a good case. You made a good case. I would say from an evolutionary perspective, also reproduction is an important part of the story as well.

19:48A hundred percent. Survival comes first because you can't reproduce if you're dead and then reproduction, which is also a lot of interesting science on that. Anyhow. There really is. Yeah, in the field of evolutionary psychology, they've mostly focused on the mating part of it than the survival part of it, interestingly enough. Okay, cool. Well, you mentioned isolation earlier. And why do you think we're so isolated as a species right now in this time of human history?

20:18Well, I already mentioned one answer, which is that, you know, I really do think that the extended period of isolation that COVID brought sort of reset our social expectations. And we're still adapting to this new world. You know, it's been a couple of years that we've reemerged into society, but we're still adapting. Our brains are still kind of stuck. I mean, I maybe it's just me getting older, but personally, I used to be like every Friday, Saturday night or Saturday during the day.

20:50Well, which friends am I going to see today? And now I'm just sort of like, you know, my brain doesn't expect that anymore. I'm just like, well, watch TV or, you know, do some chores around the house or something like that. So I think that's a big part of it. But I also think, you know, again, the cultural or the societal changes that were implemented to adapt to COVID, right, like I mentioned, I refer to it as the automation of everything. You know, you call your bank. Thank you for calling. It's an automated service. You order your groceries. You see your doctor, even.

21:25You can do a telemedicine instead of going into the office. Here we are on a podcast, not in the same room. You know, everything. I guess this isn't automated, but this is digitized, I suppose. But this is happening all over the place. And even, unfortunately, with AI, large language models, people turning to these for friendship, like we are going in a really interesting direction because of a variety of things. And I think on top of that, the other, at least in America, but certainly internationally, the other big problem is political polarization.

21:57You know, we are beginning to, not beginning, we have really divided and it's much easier now than ever to judge a person based on their political affiliation. It didn't used to be as salient. It wasn't as much of a focal point, like who did you vote for? But nowadays, we've really fractured. And I talk about this in the book as well, that it's really concerning because empathy is a core facet of interaction, right?

22:29Without empathy, the ability to understand and share someone's emotions. Without that, you really, that's like one of the parts of that, of interaction that like humanizes someone in your brain, right? You are relating to them. It's, you know, here I am with my water bottle. I'm not, if I punch this water bottle, I'm not feeling bad for it because my brain empathy systems do not engage for it. It's not, it's inanimate. Empathy, though, is diminished for people who we view as in our out group. And there's literally studies where, when brain imaging studies where people are put in brain scanners and they're, let's say, they're shown a picture or a video of someone going through something painful.

23:06And they're, that person is assigned to either, you know, one of two group identities. And if it's the group identity that they, that the person in the scanner shares, whether that's a religious identity, race, political identity, sexuality, things like that, the brain areas involved in empathy will show more activity when there's that overlap, when people, when you see someone as similar to you, your brain's empathy systems literally rev up more, and you feel more empathy. And so when we're becoming fractured like this, and 50%, approximately, of people living in the same country as you are your out group, and it's not just like, this is a minor thing. It's like, no, I really feel very differently from this person.

23:47It's very probable that our empathy systems are disengaging, and we're just sort of dehumanizing each other in this way. And I feel, I feel that that's a really tremendous problem and one that's, you know, not so subtle. I think this is pretty evident, just kind of looking at the world, you know, go on social media and post something political and just see the response you get, you know? Yeah. I see it as a real big problem too, and that's something I've been trying to fix, but help try to fix, and it's, oh boy, is it hard because people don't really want to change.

24:19Yeah, so basically as I hear you talking, it occurred to me that, you know, we all kind of become psychopaths when we think about our out group politically. Our mind is really probably not that different from a bonafide psychopath in that moment. Right, and I mean, again, evolutionarily, there is an explanation, you know, why not care for someone in your out group? Well, if you're battling this other tribe and they, you know, you see a person in a different tribe or an opposing tribe and they're fighting an animal in the wilderness, it's better for you to not feel empathy for them because, you know, you don't want to go in and help them and risk your life to save your enemy, right?

25:05So, that's probably where this all comes from, but nowadays we live in these very mixed cultures and we're around all sorts of different people and, yeah, I mean, so the reason I say that is there's a measured psychopathy, I guess you could say, embedded in the human brain, right? You need to disengage sometimes when it's important for your survival, but, you know, nowadays I think that we, these systems are being taken advantage of, I think, and we're really starting to see this disengagement from people who, you know, really should stay in our good graces.

25:45I think that I see a lot of this in families, you know, it's heartbreaking to see, you know, families fracture because they disagree politically and, you know, and I hate to talk about politics too because it's controversial and people get upset about it, but, you know, it's reality. And I'm not here to preach anything, but to just share the neuroscience on it that, like, this is a real significant phenomenon that's affecting our country and affecting our brains. Yeah, no, I'm glad, I'm glad that you, you're talking about it, I'm glad, it's important and relevant.

26:18Why, from a neurobiological perspective, do people feel better after a social interaction? I mean, I assume a positive social interaction has a different neurobiological imprint signature than a terrible one, but let's assume a good one for a second. What, you know, like, why, what a few people feel better? Yeah, so let me talk momentarily about the neuroscience of social reward, that social reward system we have. And it can get a little complicated, but I think it's fun.

26:50I think the neuroscience is interesting. My listeners are here for it. All right, awesome. So there's three major players in the brain when it comes to social reward. And when I talk about social reward, I mean, you know, think about cuddling with your spouse or, you know, congratulating, or a friend congratulates you on an achievement. You know, these are things, or even, dare I say, posting a picture of you in a swimsuit and getting a bunch of likes on social media, right? You're getting social. Which I do often.

27:21Right, and I will like that post for you, Scott. But, so, this brain system of social reward is first driven by oxytocin, and that's probably no surprise, right? We've heard of oxytocin. It's the love hormone and, you know, whatever people call it. There's all sorts of names for it. But it has a function in the brain as a neurotransmitter. And most of that oxytocin is produced in a brain area called the paraventricular nucleus. And so, that oxytocin gets sent to a bunch of different brain areas.

27:51And I like to think of this oxytocin release as the first domino falling, and then it tips two other dominoes over. And those two other dominoes are serotonin and dopamine. And so, and that happens in different brain areas. So, that oxytocin from the paraventricular nucleus, or PBN, gets sent to the ventral tegmental area. And, you know, I'm not going to get, if you're interested in these brain areas, please do a Google search. There's lots of fun stuff to read. But the ventral tegmental area is the primary, is the largest source of dopamine in the brain.

28:24And so, naturally, you can imagine, okay, if oxytocin, this love hormone, this social bonding neurotransmitter, drives dopamine, which is reinforcing and, you know, drives motivation, you can begin to understand immediately why social interaction makes us feel good. And, you know, we, look at this, look at it this way. Every Friday and Saturday night, bars all over the world are packed full of people. We have this precious free time, and we go spend it in these tight quarters in social settings with others.

28:56You know, why isn't it that humans spend our Friday and Saturday nights? It's, I don't know, we could be doing anything. We could be reading. We could be cooking. Well, the mating motive is part of that story as well. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. And part of the reason for that mating motive is because of these same systems. You know, this dopamine, this reinforcement to pursue is critical for love and romance and oxytocin as well. Anyways, the other system I mentioned is serotonin. And so, it appears that oxytocin goes to a brain area called the nucleus accumbens, which is very much involved in motivation and reward also.

29:37And in the nucleus accumbens, that oxytocin comes in, and it causes more serotonin to be released there. And that serotonin in the nucleus accumbens seems to have this unique social property. So, research from Dr. Rob Malenka's lab at Stanford, where I did my postdoc, and, you know, many great researchers have come out of this lab. Dr. Malenka is a legend in the field. He's known or he's credited for understanding a lot of what we know about synaptic plasticity. So, he's a legend. He's a goat. A lot of research from his lab has shown that serotonin release in the nucleus accumbens in mice can drive just social pursuit.

30:15So, if you take a mouse and you stimulate that serotonin, they will suddenly become more interested in socializing with other mice. If you do the same thing in a mouse model of autism, so a mouse that has genetic alteration that's linked to autism in humans, normally those mice will be pretty disinterested in socializing. But you stimulate serotonin in the nucleus accumbens, suddenly they're spending more time with others. And also, my own research found that that signal was the key for MDMA, enhancing empathy, also in mice. So, anyhow, so you can think about this three dominoes.

30:47So, oxytocin falls. It drives serotonin release. It drives dopamine release. You get this unique reinforcing, you know, probably energizing concoction of neurotransmitters. That leaves you feeling good. So, sorry for the very long answer with all the neuroscience, but effectively that's the answer. The reason you feel good after a social interaction, especially a good one, is because it's tickling these brain systems that tell you this is reinforcing, we should do more of this, and this feels good. This is really, really cool.

31:18And thank you for explaining that. I could listen to you all day talk about science, which you're very good at it. I appreciate that. Of course. So, there's some nuances I want to talk about. One thing I was thinking of is that can you ever have the dopamine domino drop, and can that be a bonding experience? You know, can that release oxytocin?

31:43I'm not aware. Jeez, that's a good question. I'm not aware of that circuit from dopamine. Just curious, you know, you bring two people in who, I don't know, give them something thrilling to do together, and that's, you know, has a positive expectation of a reward, and then they report greater bonding and actually affects oxytocin. I don't know. I'm sure there is interplay between those systems. Okay. But I don't know of any, like, specific studies that have documented that.

32:16Yeah. No, right on. I'm just asking nerdy follow-up questions. Yeah, hit me. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Okay.

32:24Oxytocin is an interesting one because, like, some recent research I've seen suggests it probably best characterizes the in-group love hormone. Meaning that as long as you're talking to someone that you feel like there's trust there, trust is a big part of oxytocin and an agreement, you know, and ideas and things. But you also can find that if you're talking to someone who you perceive in your out-group, oxytocin increases aggression, which is counterintuitive to people who have tended to think of oxytocin in the past as only the love hormone.

33:01And it actually can be one of our greatest sources of antagonism. Yeah. There's definitely, right. There's definitely a link to aggression for sure. I mean, you know, I think this is a beautiful demonstration of the complexity of neurochemistry, right? We have so much going on. And just like the question you asked, does dopamine drive oxytocin? It's like, I don't know, but I'm sure it does. You know, I'm sure there's some circuit in there. Like, 86 billion neurons, all these different systems interacting in all these different ways.

33:35They all influence each other, right? Like, that's the other thing. We talk about, like, oh, you know, I just said it. Oxytocin gets sent to the ventral segmental area and stimulates dopamine. But, like, it doesn't just end there, right? There's, like, the dopamine is going somewhere and doing something. And then wherever it touches, it's going and doing something. And it's all this, like, incalculable mass of circuitry that we can never track down. And I've thought for a while that it would be cool to create some growing database of, like, all the brain circuits. And, like, you click on one and it, like, just ripples all throughout.

34:06And we can, like, try and figure out all these echoes in the brain of where everything is going. But, yeah, it would be so cool. And maybe one day we'll get there. And I certainly don't have the capacity to build it myself. But someone please do this. But, yeah, I mean, it's a complex organ. And when I'm speaking about these things, of course, I'm speaking in broad general terms of, you know, how neurochemistry works. But situationally, and like you mentioned, group differences, right, there's so much nuance built into all of this. So much nuance. I want to really understand my head around empathy because it just seems like these days there's so much selective empathy, you know.

34:45And, you know, so what determines how much empathy we feel for another fellow human being? Okay. There's a lot. And when I say, like, you know, how much empathy you feel, it's not just about how much empathy you feel, but how much those brain systems activate. And, yes, we have scientists have sorted out there are certain brain systems or brain areas that seem to be especially activated when we experience empathy. And the two that come up a lot, or three, actually, are the anterior cingulate cortex, the insular cortex, and the prefrontal cortex.

35:18So, when I say, you know, the following, what I mean is these variables I'm about to mention can influence how much activity occurs in these brain areas when we're trying to empathize with someone. So, one of them is, of course, the context, right? So, if you're talking to a friend and they're like, man, I was stabbed by 150 needles earlier this morning, you know, those brain areas would fire up. You'd be like, oh, my gosh, it's horrible. What happened to you? But if they told you, oh, actually, this was acupuncture, I feel so much better now after that, right? Those systems will back off.

35:48So, the context of whether they're experiencing something painful, you know, it's about our ability to step into it, right? Interesting.

35:56Speaking of our ability to step into it, if we can really imagine what it's like to go through something. So, for instance, if you see someone get their hands slammed in a car door and you've had that happen to you before. Or, for instance, someone who's gone through labor and they're talking with someone who's talking about their experience going through labor, right? There's a difference in how much we can really reactivate the sort of concept of what that's like. So, that influences how much empathy we can experience for someone.

36:30And on the extreme end of that, this is super, super interesting. So, some people are born with the inability to feel pain. It's called congenital insensitivity to pain. Very, very rare. Very dangerous, unfortunately. A very, you know, short lifespan for these people because pain is important. But those people, they tend to underestimate pain for others, right? So, they can't relate to the experience. And so, their brains are less effective at embodying and understanding what the experience is like for others.

37:00Now, another thing is in group-out group. Of course, I already mentioned this. Pretty much you name it. If someone is different from you, they're liable to induce less empathy activity in your brain. And a really quick kind of way to think about this is if you imagine a Venn diagram, right? Two circles with an overlap in the middle. And you are one of those circles and the other person is the other circle. And you try to imagine self-other overlap. So, put those circles together. So, like, Scott, you and I, you know, I'm a good picture.

37:32I obviously don't know that much about your personal life. But I can imagine that we probably have a pretty significant amount of overlap just from what I know about you. And with that comes more empathic activity in the brain. And so, you know, one of the tips that I like to give is if you're trying to empathize more with others, imagine the self-other overlap, right? You're like, here's an example from the book that I really like to use because it's so simple. So, imagine you're driving on the highway and you see someone parked on the side of the road.

38:06Their car is clearly broken down. Scale of 1 to 10. Let me paint the picture a little more. They're standing next to their car. They look super helpless. They're maybe on the phone and, like, you're just like, man, this person is totally screwed. Scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to pull over and offer them help? And you don't have to share your answer or you can.

38:26Ask it one more time. What's the likelihood that you will pull over, scale of 1 to 10, that you will pull over and offer them help? Sorry. Tell the story, though. Person is standing on the side of the road next to a broken down car. They look totally helpless. You can tell, you know, there's smoke coming out of their engine. They're standing by the car. They look distressed. Whatever you're picturing, whoever the person is, what's your number? Scale of 1 to 10. Likelihood that you will pull over and stop and help them. Okay. Probably, like, if I have time, probably a 9.

38:58Okay. Now, and I want everyone listening to do that as well. Please come up with your number. Now, same scenario. Imagine that you're driving by and you see the exact same scenario, but the person you see has a different skin color. And they're wearing a necklace with a religious emblem that is different from the religion that you follow. Wow. Their car has a political sticker of a politician that you don't like. Wow. Maybe they're using a different brand of phone than you are using. You know, they're sitting texting on an Android instead of an iPhone or whatever.

39:32Have you felt your number gradually declining? Is it now lower?

39:39And I know you probably, your natural impulse, even if it is lower, will not be to share that it's lower because that's, you know, it seems really bad. It seems like you're... Well, you know, I'm weird. I'm a weird human. Like when I was in, when I was really young, I was in special ed and I'd always like beeline towards the ones who look different, you know? So like in some instances, it's so, so contextual.

40:10In some instances, I might actually beeline to certain people who I feel like I'd be like, well, I don't think other people are going to help this person. So it actually would make me more likely to want to help them. I know that sounds like I'm making that up, but I generally think that could be true in a certain instance. Yeah, I believe you. Like if I'm in like a blue state and I see like someone with a MAGA hat stuck by the side of the road, I actually might be more inclined to be like, I don't think anyone else in this town is going to want to help this person, you know?

40:40Or vice versa, by the way. It's not just like I'm saying I'm pro MAGA. That wasn't my point. My point is, you know, whatever. Yeah, totally. I mean, what you're saying requires a very high level of cognitive empathy, really. Yeah. I think I'm high in cognitive empathy. For sure. Yeah.

41:00The purpose of the exercise, though, is that for most people, the gut reaction is going to be lower, right? Yeah. And that's because of that. Your self-other overlap is diminishing, right? As, you know, different color skin, different religious identity, different political affiliation. All these things are pulling this person further and further away from you. And so in scenarios like this, if you ever encounter something like this and you're trying to will yourself into empathy, which, by the way, would be a very noble mission, you can try to add things back into the middle, right?

41:34Maybe this person has a dog at home just like you or a cat. You know, maybe this person is there tonight when they get home, they're really looking forward to watching the same TV show that you like to watch. Maybe the music they just turned off when they pulled over was the same music you're listening to right now. There's so many ways to fill in the gaps and make this person more complex than what these visible traits are that we often tend to focus on. And in doing so, you might actually gradually feel those systems come back online and think, man, you know, I can really relate to this person. This is this would suck for me if I'm pulled over like that.

42:06And in the moment, this may be really helpful because if you can will yourself into cognitive empathy, what I just mentioned, which is the ability to understand someone's emotions and just think, you know, what are they feeling? Right. I can understand it in my head. But then that may help you lean into emotional empathy. Those are two different things. And emotional empathy is the feeling of someone's emotions. So if you can get yourself to think, oh, you know, they probably feel terrible.

42:38And if you have that higher self-other overlap, you might think I could just as easily feel the same way. I could just as easily be in the same position. What would that feel like for me? And if you can impose those emotions over your own, you might start to feel that tightness in your chest of I'm on the side of the road. I got to get somewhere. My car's broken down. I got to call AAA or whatever. This is a disaster. And then you can imagine someone pulling over and offering help. And it's just like a rush of oxytocin, really. It's like a rush of love. It's like, oh, my gosh, the impact I could have on this person is tremendous.

43:08And ultimately, I don't think that we should let a couple hundred thousand years of, you know, evolutionary precedent and this natural impulse to divide by groups to get in the way of us being a really healthy society and helping each other now. And I think that's what it's doing ultimately. Oh, yeah, this is really, really gold, what you're saying. In the personality change literature, the agreeableness, disagreeableness factor dimension of human personality has been the one that's been the most difficult to change.

43:44They've tried. There's interventions. And people who are antagonistic are not motivated to become more agreeable. And people who are agreeable don't want to become more antagonistic. So you just find it very hard in the personality change literature because there's not the motivation. So I think there's like what you're saying, which is the things we can do. And then there's like the motivation aspect as well needs to be a part of it as well. You can't bring a horse to water. What's the expression? I don't know.

44:15But you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah. No. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. That's the one. Oh, whew. Yeah. I mean, it's a challenge. And I think also recognizing your own empathy levels is also kind of difficult, right? I think, you know, I hear a lot of people say, oh, I'm an empath, right? I have a lot of empathy. Some of those people tend to be like the worst people on the planet. What were you going to say? This could happen. But what I was going to say is I've never heard anyone say, you know, I'm really low

44:48on empathy. I really don't give a damn about anybody. You know, nobody really says that. And those are the people who would be best to recognize that there are ways to actually enhance your empathy, not just through these little like sort of behavioral thought experiments that I'm talking about. But, you know, there are literally trainings out there that can enhance empathy, things like that. But yeah, I mean, empathy matters. It really does.

45:13Yeah, it matters so much. And I just love how you connect all these things in your book, you know, just the overall need for social connection with ways in which we can become disconnected, isolation. I mean, it's all connected. I see how and I see how it's all connected. So it's very wonderful to be able to talk to you. Yeah, thank you. But we're not done yet. I know that sounded like all the best to you, but I have a few more questions.

45:46Yeah. So what are your thoughts on the difference between virtual interactions? Like, you know, within the age of Zoom, COVID, you know, some people are like, we're not going back to the way we were before. I prefer this. You know, what does the science say about that now? Yeah. I mean, gosh, by the way, I didn't even mention that, right? Like, virtual interactions, remote work, right? Like, all these things contribute to our loneliness issue. Anyways, the science on this is emerging, right? We've, it's fairly new.

46:18But in general, so I mentioned that interacting makes people feel better for the most part, right? We discussed this difference between introverts and extroverts and such. But broadly, people feel better after interacting.

46:32The research on virtual interactions seems to suggest that the less lifelike our interactions are, the worse we feel after. Not that, like, so, okay, let's take a kind of a gradient approach, right? So the best thing you can do is interact in person. You're hugging, you're talking, you're whatever, doing all the things the brain does when we are interacting in person. Now we step back to video. We've lost a couple things. Number one, we've lost eye contact. It's impossible to look into each other's eyes unless you're both staring at your camera,

47:05which is not eye contact. Number two, we've lost social smells, which are totally a factor. You know, we may not always notice them. Sometimes we do notice smells from other people. But there's a lot of things that happen subliminally we don't even recognize are going on. And the other thing is we lose a bit of body language, right? Like right now, I don't know what's going on with your lower body, Scott. You might, your legs could be fully crossed. They could be, you know, you can have them up and you could be relaxing, whatever. That stuff matters a bit. I might not be wearing pants. Right, right. I assume neither of us are.

47:36I am, but... We are both. We are both wearing pants. But yeah, so you lose some of that information, right? Then, now let's go another layer down to a phone call, right? Less lifelike. You can't see each other. Now go down to a text message. Totally not lifelike at all. You can't see, hear, whatever. Feel, you can't even hear the tone of voice in the words that you're sending each other. So it's very different. And what the research seems to show is that people don't feel as good after texting with others as they do after talking in person or even on video.

48:10And the reason for that may be because, you know, the brain doesn't necessarily recognize a text conversation as an interaction. It may not trigger all those positive effects in the brain because it totally lacks most of the things that the brain uses to say, oh, I'm in an interaction with someone, right? Like the difference my brain recognizes between my water bottle here and a person is facial expressions and tone of voice and all sorts of things that say, oh, this is a person, right? Because at the end of the day, we're just brains operating and our brains are soaking

48:42up information. And so without those things, it's not going to have that same effect.

48:48The other thing, of course, is that when we look at social media, which is not really a form of direct interaction, but it's allegedly a, quote, social medium. Um, the more people use social media, generally the worse they feel. And they, you know, they tend to show higher anxiety, depression scores. And interestingly, what I think is the best fun fact of all is that people who use social media more tend to feel more lonely. So it's seems to be not very social after all.

49:19Uh, it, it may be isolating in fact. And there's a lot of reasons why this could be. And obviously there's, you know, the social element of it, the social comparisons, you know, the hostility online, the arguing, all this, um, the fact that when you're on social media, you're generally by yourself. So you are actually isolating, but there also might be a central role of sleep, which is interesting because in those studies where they're looking at, you know, people who spend more time on social media, they feel worse. They have, you know, their mental health is poorer. Well, those people spending more time on social media are spending that time at night swiping

49:52instead of sleeping. And as we know, the effects of sleep deprivation are really bad. It can harm your mood, cognition, focus, all sorts of things. But it may be that, uh, that spending less time sleeping and more time swiping is, is ultimately leading to these bad effects. But, um, but that can't account for some things like the loneliness, for instance. Wow. So it should be called lonely media, not social media. Right. I just tweeted that. Isolation media. I just tweeted that this second while you were talking.

50:22That's impressive. I admit it. I admit it. Um, okay. Um, you inspired me. Um, well, there's so much, oh my gosh, there's so many questions I had for you. Um, well, what, what determines how likable you are? I don't feel like likability is always the same thing as, uh, I feel like you can be a, have a very likable personality and still personally be very lonely. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like, yeah. Likeability is, is such an interesting thing because, um, there's a lot of research on it,

50:57you know, and it's, it almost seems like kind of a silly thing for scientists to study, but it does really matter, you know, because the more likable you are, generally there's a lot of benefits. Um, you know, people who are better liked, you know, they are rated better in their professions and things, you know, all sorts of, it tends to just create a sort of halo effect on people that it's like, oh wow, this person's great. You know, um, so there, of course it's, it's helpful to understand what makes someone likable.

51:32Um, there's a lot here. Some of the things you can't control, uh, unfortunately, like your, uh, level of attractiveness seems to have a really great bearing on how likable you are. Um, you can control that to a certain degree. You can. Yes. Maybe women can more than men. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, you know, I do, I do say in the book, um, basically the tech, technically this is controllable, but I would please advise you not to go, you know, reconstruct yourself because of this chapter, you know, um, cause the other thing here too, is that authenticity

52:06is one of the variables that controls likability. So if you, if you, you know, discard your true self trying to seek a more authentic or a more likable version of yourself at the expense of authenticity, it may not have any effect in the end. Um, the other uncontrollable, but technically controllable thing is your name. Interestingly, people have to tend to perceive others, you know, differently based on their name. Uh, one, one, I hate to make political references, but this is so interesting.

52:36Um, after we've talked for politics about politics for a while now already, uh, there's some research showing that people with harder to pronounce names are rated as less trustworthy. Oh, wow. And to me, that makes me think about 2024 election. There was a lot of confusion I noticed about Kamala Harris's name, whether it was Kamala, Kamala is hard to pronounce, right? Which is a canonically less trustworthy thing in the sciences. And so when you're talking about someone voting for a person that they want to be president,

53:08that person should be trustworthy. And I thought, I thought during the presidential election about, I wonder how much her name without people even noticing it is affecting whether how likely people feel to vote for her. Um, anyways, you can cut that if you want it later on. No, that's super interesting. Yeah. It's, it's like these, it's almost like a, I don't know if you've ever read Freakonomics. It's like one of those like Freakonomics, like science things, um, anyways, as far as the controllable things, you know, the things you can really grip, um, and, and modify.

53:40So body language is really interesting. Um, people move a lot when they interact. It's, it's very natural and people also mimic each other a lot. And the mimicking is, seems to be supportive for interaction. So when people, when you, like, if we were interacting and I were to mimic your body movements, obviously not like one for one, I'm mirroring you like a mime. That would be weird, but kind of just, you know, you, you may notice this happening all the time. Anyways, you cross your legs and the person you're talking with crosses their legs or you're talking to someone and you notice, oh, that's funny.

54:11We're standing in the exact same stance happens all the time. It's very subconscious with humans do it naturally. And it's like this affiliative thing. It's like the subconscious way of saying, I am with you. I'm on your team. Look, my body's even in the same position. And it's funny because when, when actors come in and they, you know, in like a research study and they mimic someone's body, body positioning during like a short interaction, the people in the study, even though they don't know it's an actor, they don't know they were mimicking them. They will rate the person as more likable at the end of it. So interesting.

54:41Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so, you know, I, again, I don't recommend like mirroring, but you know, it could be used to your benefit. If you're in a job interview or something and you're really trying to make a good impression and they, you know, they sit back in their chair and they fold their legs, like you could do the same. It might, it might maybe subliminally prime their brain just a little bit to like you better. Um, but another thing that's really important is, uh, expressiveness. And there's a, no, there's a very fine line here because expressiveness often goes with

55:13extroversion, right? You're very, you're making a lot of facial expressions, you're touching people, you're moving, right? You're, you're, it's true. Expressive and extroverted people are typically, uh, more, more liked as well, more likable. Um, but the thing about all this is in order for extroversion to make you more likable, you also need to have high emotional intelligence. So you need to not just be super outgoing and expressive and, you know, assertive and all this, but you also need to be able to understand the other person's emotions because we've all

55:43met someone who's really, really outgoing to the point of being overbearing because they don't necessarily take into consideration your experience in the interaction, right? It's just like so intense and it's like, I'm exhausted. And so that, that fine line of being expressive and extroverted, but also understanding the other person and using that emotional intelligence is really key. Uh, so there's a lot of things, you know, I, this is probably the extent of what my brain can, can remember off the top of my head.

56:14I lay it all out and there's a whole chapter about likability where I talk about these things in the book. Yeah, it's wonderful. And, uh, and a lot of these things that you're talking about that increase likability, they also increase interbrain synchrony, especially the, the mimicking stuff you were saying in the, uh, the mirroring, the mirroring interbrain synchrony is such a cool, I love that topic. Yeah. Should I, should I give a primer? Yeah. Yeah. Talk a little about that. So that was the, when I wrote something about that, uh, shared a study, it was like most

56:47likes than I've ever received. Oh really? I'm really into that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of sci-fi, right? It's one of those things where you hear about it and you're like, yeah, this is probably bogus. And then it's like, wait, this is actually real science that two brains can sync up. Um, and you know, I have thoughts on this. So the, the general idea with interbrain synchrony is that when two people are interacting, sharing an experience, working together, you know, collaborating, if you're measuring their brain activity, you may see synchrony and that certain brain areas might show basically identical patterns

57:18of activity, there's a lot of ways this can be interpreted. And I think the way that it often strikes people is like, Whoa, what? Like, is this some sort of like quantum physics, right? Like are these things, the things are actually like linking up. And, you know, my impression is that I actually think it's just like you're on the same page, right? You're both thinking the same. I don't necessarily think that like there's some signal emanating from your brain that they're locking up and, and the two brains are synchronizing as so much as you're engaging

57:52in this social state and you have all these facial expressions and, you know, there's all this information in the world around us that allows our brains to function identically at the same time, which is supportive for collaboration. And, and because our brain patterns are similar, we're like literally on the same wavelength, we're thinking the same. And so we can collaborate better. We, we can work better in teams. You know, we feel maybe more trustworthy, trusting of each other. Uh, but the thing that's super interesting about interbrain synchrony is that it's, it's sensitive

58:23to, um, like who's on your team basically. And like one of the most accessible pairings for interbrain synchrony. And by that, I mean like it's, it's parents and children. And if you put parents and children together, you have them work on a task together. What I mean by more, most accessible is that they're much more likely to achieve interbrain synchrony than if you put like two strangers together or even two friends. What makes sense. And which it does make sense because I mean, for many reasons, one, it's super helpful to be able to collaborate effectively with your children or your parents.

58:56And also, you know, there's all this, your brains are literally similar because you're related. But what's super interesting is that if you flip the script and instead of collaborating, you are competing with each other. You have the parent and the child compete. The interbrain synchrony just completely vanishes. And I find that even in like the same task, like if you have a collaborative task, but then you switch it so that they're like, they're actually competing against each other. Interbrain synchrony goes away. And so to me, that's why I think of it as this like system help to help us really collaborate

59:26in teams and make sense. But it's, but the fact that it's sensitive makes me, I think it's so fascinating. So, you know, if you're arguing with someone or whatever, you're probably not going to be able to access that brain state with you. Well, we, this, this goes into a very different territory, but I've been curious about the telepathy tapes and what happens when two autistic people who are nonverbal try to communicate with each other, you know, they seem to communicate at a different, something different's going

59:59on. So I think it's just, it'd be cool, it'd be cool to look at, uh, synchrony, synchrony across different types of neurodivergence and, uh, yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I'm not aware of those, what you're talking about. That sounds extremely fascinating. Um, but it makes me think of something, you know, you're right. Um, in that interbrain synchrony can occur like organically, I guess you might say, like just kind of spontaneously. Um, cause I know there are some studies in, in infants where an infant can achieve interbrain

1:00:35synchrony with their mother and just kind of like hanging out and playing, uh, which is super interesting. And what's, what's also fascinating about that study is that they had, um, the mother wear a shirt for a while to bed. And then when they put a different woman in front of the baby, that interbrain synchrony stopped. Like the baby, the baby does not synchronize with a person who's not their mother. But if they put the mother's t-shirt that she was wearing, that smelled like her in front of the baby while the baby was interacting with another woman.

1:01:06So just, so it's just another woman. And then you're just giving the baby the smell of the mom they achieved interbrain synchrony, uh, which is super interesting, you know, maybe it's because, you know, infants have like very little sense of sight and obviously very low levels of, you know, just sort of general awareness. Um, so smell is one of the like true forms of sense that they can detect what's going on in the world around them. Uh, but anyways, and also I mentioned earlier, you know, social smells, you may not detect them, but they are influencing your brain.

1:01:38Uh, that's another example of that. But I just think it's fascinating that, you know, you're just with your baby and you're achieving interbrain synchrony, just looking and playing with them. So that does challenge my, my notion a bit. Um, absolutely. Um, and it makes me just think of adults as well and, uh, different conditions involving, um, smell only, you know, like, or, uh, or listening to a nostalgic song on the radio, you know, can that cause synchrony between two people who once had a memory together?

1:02:13Uh, do you know what I'm saying? Like there's, there's all sorts of fascinating, uh, ways of maybe creating synchrony that doesn't even involve direct communication between two people. Yeah. And actually that does happen. Um, like there's, there's one study I'm thinking of that did something kind of similar to that. They had people watch a, uh, movie. They had them watch Friday night lights together and, and they measured not brain synchrony, but like bodily synchrony, uh, like breathing rate, heart rate, you know, things like that, like

1:02:43facial expressions. And, um, and they did find that there was some level of synchrony between the people. And interestingly, even though the people didn't interact directly while they were watching the movie, the more that their signals synchronized, like their heart rate and facial expressions, while simply watching the movie, the more they reported liking each other at the end of it, even though they didn't interact with each other, there was just some, for some reason, the synchrony made them feel affiliated towards each other. Or, uh, increase oxytocin in both of them. Yeah, maybe so. I mean, I guess you're sharing a nice experience together, right?

1:03:15You're laughing at the same time in the movie. It's like maybe dopamine too. Yeah. Um, well, wow, wow, wow, wow. Um, doctor, um, this was such an enlightening episode and so important. Thank you so much for coming to my podcast. All the best with your book release. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's been a blast.