From Coping to Capacity w/ RaQuel Hopkins

0:00I think that when identity gives you language for who you are and then it connects you with others. For example, I could say that I am strong, right? There are pros and cons to that. Depends on what I am strong means. If I am strong means that I don't seek support or I don't ask for help, then that's when it becomes more of an identity versus just the label, right? Like I can say like I'm a runner, for example, and maybe sometimes identifying as a runner

0:34means that I know how to push through because we do have those moments where you just have to push through. But if you see yourself as a runner, that subject versus object, then you're probably going to be just pushing through life at all times and not necessarily knowing when to slow down. So I think that that is the difference. The identity becomes a trap when it turns more into performance and you're having to prove something. Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential.

1:07It's my great pleasure today to introduce Raquel Hopkins to the podcast. Raquel is a certified coach and she holds a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling. While she discovered she was an expert at coping, Raquel's curiosity led her into the world of adult development and capacity, how our minds expand or don't over time. She realized she didn't just want to cope. She wanted to grow. Now she uses her personal and professional experiences to help others who feel the same way. Like there must be more to life than just managing it. This was a really raw and honest episode.

1:38We bonded over our mutual interests in helping all people, regardless of skin color or life experiences, grow and thrive. If you're ready to stop settling and start thriving, listen to this podcast and of course, follow her great work and amazing online presence. So without further ado, I bring you Raquel Hopkins. Raquel Hopkins, it is so amazing having you on the Psychology Podcast. I'm excited. I am really excited. Me too.

2:09I'm a long time, maybe not long time, but I'm a short time fan of yours. Same. As soon as I was introduced to your work, actually last night I just purchased your other book, The Transcendence. So I'll get it tomorrow via Amazon, according to Amazon. That's exciting. Well, I'm curious what you think about. It's a very different book than my most recent one, Rise Above, which has a lot of themes that really you talk about a lot and you're blowing up. And I saw a post saying you're not entirely comfortable with that.

2:42I'm not. I don't like being, well, one, I never got into this because I want it to blow up, right? I started creating content about a year ago or maybe two years ago. And I just really enjoy doing it because I actually have a background in HR and business. And then my second master's is in clinical and mental health counseling. So I've always thought that it was just, so let me back up a little bit. When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a psychologist.

3:12And funny enough, I go off to undergrad. And when I go off into undergrad, I end up calling a psychologist. And she was like, well, I didn't start off this way. I became an engineer first. And then once I had laid my foundation, I then went to become a psychologist. And just coming from where I come from, I was like, I need to figure out how to make some money, like graduate, make money. So I changed my major to business with concentration in HR because I was like, you could still work

3:43with people. And then somehow I ended up right back in the world of psychology and mental health and counseling. So that's the route that I went initially. I like it. And at what point are you like, let me talk online about this stuff. So in seeing when I went back for the second master's in clinical and mental health counseling, when I was reading the textbooks versus what we were actually seeing out in mainstream media,

4:15I was like, this doesn't align with my understanding of mental health. And I also felt like some of the stuff that I was learning and how things were being presented was not beneficial for me at the time. And I was like, well, if I can't even figure out how to use this information to truly support me from where I am, how do I expect to help other people? So I just got curious and I started reading beyond what the program was offering.

4:47And I came across Robert Keegan. And when I came across Robert Keegan, I was like, oh my gosh, I love Robert Keegan's work. And his work made much more sense to me. And that's sort of like the concept of capacity, what I captured from there and how we develop cognitively over time, coupled with this coaching program. And that's what made me. So I had clients too, right? And I was using like Keegan's concept. I was using coaching concepts, coupled with all of the things that I had learned in the

5:20program. And one of the things I kept finding was, especially with like clients that were more, if we had to separate therapy versus coaching, they were like, well, I still find myself stuck. So I started using them as guinea pigs. And I was like, well, let me try like these different approaches. Let me introduce them to Robert Keegan's work. Let me push back on what they're seeing, what trauma is. And the more and more that I started to have those conversations, I was like, there's an opportunity to educate people.

5:51But I was afraid. So I was quiet for years because I was like, there's so many people that are doing the work that are finally seeking support. I don't want to be a disruption to that because I do believe in therapy. I do believe in all of the things. But I was like, I think that we have overcorrected and being having a background in HR, like some of our struggles have changed, had changed as professionals. And then you start talking to other professionals like, oh, we're having the same things. I can't do this because of my mental health. I can't do this because my ADHD or my anxiety.

6:22And I was like, what is the world turning into? This is not my understanding of what it means to support and empower people from a mental health standpoint. So this year in February, I was like, I'm just going to start posting content and I'll be a little bit more assertive with my messaging rather than watering it down. And the first day that I did it, I ended up going viral. And the rest has been history. Like, I think it's just now settling in that people perceive me differently than what I

7:01perceive myself. I just see myself as a person just wanting to serve and help. So managing like the responses, the attacks too that come with social media, I'm like, I wasn't necessarily signing up for that. But I also know that I didn't start this with having the capacity for social media. So I'm developing that over time because I do think that there's a lot of opportunity here to send us in the more of, I hate to say the right direction, but the right direction

7:33when it comes to mental health, because a lot of people are struggling.

7:38Yeah. And, you know, your idea of capacity, and if you could define it a little bit for us, that'd be great, but you're very much distinguish it from merely coping. I think that's a big essential point of your work. Yeah. So the way that I view, so capacity is more about who do you become, not necessarily what shapes, what shapes you or what your experiences are. It's like, how do you learn to integrate your experiences in a way to where you actually can transform as a person?

8:08And when I think about coping, I think about just the basic foundation that people need in order to meet whatever everyday demands are, whether that's establishing boundaries, whether that's just doing what's best for you, protecting your peace, protecting your energy. And I don't think that that is sustainable over time, especially not in the modern day world. So when I think about capacity, it's like, all right, now it's not so much of what you carry. Now that you carry all of those things, how do you transform in a way that you start to

8:42become a new person and you're really walking and living with this growth mindset?

8:48And as I continue to develop this concept around capacity, I think the thing that I'm interested in is struck is researching actually now, um, what causes us to shrink as human beings or as humans?

9:06Yeah. Well, a lot of factors, but what are, what are some, uh, one of the most prominent ones do you think? The first thing that comes to my mind is blame. Um, I think that blame is very easy. The second thing that comes to my mind is I think that we're inherently wired. We're, we're inherently wired to protect ourselves. And if we're inherently wired to protect ourselves, it's much easier to, to shrink at the expense of life. Um, I think that the conversations around mental health today, in a lot of ways, people don't

9:39have the same education and experience. So the words are taken out of context. So social media, uh, is now like a leading indicator for how people get their information. I think that that plays a role in it. Um, those are the three things that come like top of mind.

9:59Uh, I like it. I like it. Um, is this based on, uh, observation? Um, what sort of data are you using to come up with that? Um, so observation now, so I, this is new, you, well, you will have this information. So I'm actually working with a team of researchers right now, uh, and defining the term shrinking, coping, and we're starting the research to develop my own capacity framework. Amazing. Oh, keep me up to date. I will.

10:29So it has like, um, I, I'm top of mind, like developmental stages, right? It's survival, stability, strength, and then stewardship. And it's not that any, any stage is wrong and or bad, right? But giving you an idea of like how and where we can get stuck. And I really like, um, Eric Erickson's work. I don't necessarily see his model as, you know, how he starts out with trust versus mistrust. I think that just when you transition into adulthood, it's less about your caregivers

11:03and more about you. Or when he gets to the end of life phase, integrity versus despair. I think that people live with that every single day. You don't have to wait until you get older, um, to, to look back over your life, to determine whether or not you, you, you, you have any regret. So I taken all of that information and have put it into something based off of the research that's already there, coupled with my observations and hopefully it produces something good.

11:36It's already producing something good. Thank you. Yeah. Um, you, a lot of what you talk about as well as, uh, this victimhood, uh, narrative that, that can be holding you back in a lot of ways. Um, or victimhood culture that we live in. Do you think that the, uh, that most clinical psychology training programs are too woke these days? What are your thoughts on the, the woke continuum and, uh, and, uh, and sort of, um, teaching,

12:06teaching training programs through that lens? So how do you, when you say woke, Dr. Scott, what do I mean about it? Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean by woke? I mean, viewing everything through the lens of race and gender and that's it. Period. End of story. Oh, um, I think it's very limiting. And I think it's limiting because race, gender is just context. When anyone is presented in front of you, it just gives you context for that person.

12:38I don't think that that changed. Cause I think about mental health from a developmental standpoint. Like we continue to develop people, support people in evolution in the same way that you would children. Um, I wouldn't treat my children as if, oh, well, I don't know. He's a boy versus he's a girl. Like to me, my expectations are the same in that. And I don't even know I don't have girls, but my expectations are the same. Now I know that there may be limits, right.

13:11Um, just based off of biology in that sense. But I think that is very limiting for, uh, a lot of people. And when I was going through the program, I don't remember being taught about race and gender in a way that we started to shape people's identity around it. I just remember it just being context. It's information. It's understanding that if people, if you, they're pros and cons to a two parent household

13:44versus a single household. Like they're always pros and cons to anything in life. So that was my takeaway. But we all interpret information differently. So I don't know that it was the program, but I would say for the program that I was in, I did feel like a lot of people were adopting that information. Uh, most recently, uh, I actually have a clip that I'm going to do where I talk about, there's no such thing as black mental health. Like, I don't know where that has come from. I understand the context behind it, but there's no such thing as men's mental health, black mental

14:18health, woman's mental health. It's just mental health and mental health is universal. And I think we do people a disservice by adding all of these labels to words that already have like common language. Yeah, I like that. Um, yeah, I mean, I think that you, you, you try to stay out of politics, which is pretty awesome and rare, refreshing. So thank you. Uh, you know, you're really focused on the real prize, which is mental health, you know,

14:51and, uh, for everyone. And I really like that. Well, I like your vibe. Um, and I think it's an, it's just, I'm trying to point out some elephants in the room. Like, I think that some people might think because, you know, you are black, right? That you are far left and that you're et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I just, I hate how in our society today, we make so many assumptions about people based on the color of their skin, which is a funny thing to say, like that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say. You bring it up, um, go, it goes back to context, right?

15:24Because now that I am, I have so many people following me today, context, I do struggle with that now, right? That people are wanting to pay, place me in left, right, or you may have people say like, is she a coon? Cause that's a thing too. Right. So I struggle with that today because I understand my plot. I understand what may make my journey different from yours or anyone else's, right?

15:55So you, I don't lose that. It's just context. It's not at the forefront. It's not the thing that leads and or drives me. So, and that's so much about what capacity is. Can you hold the weight of your life without losing who you say you are or who you want to become? Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, you're, you're speaking my language for sure. Um, so the idea, you know, this victimhood culture and, and there's a lot of nuance there, which you do bring to the table and something you address is how we can hold space for real

16:26pain without glorifying victimhood as the defining story. That's really the, the nuanced question there. And how do you go about that? Tell me more about your approach to that. I think it's one, acknowledging that pain is inevitable, right? Because you are a human, uh, you're going to have these lived experiences and no one is exempt from pain. So I think it's acknowledging people's pain. The problem or where victimhood comes in at is when we start to create an identity around

17:00the pain and you start to rehearse the pain. And then it really becomes like who you are and your story and it pulls you further away from growth. I think it's acknowledging it. And I think that insight people know how to acknowledge their pain today, but not necessarily grow beyond it or integrate their pain into who you can become. Um, there's a lot of surface level talking, uh, to today, right. About like pain, it's, it's, it's purpose. But when you start to listen to people's language, um, that's where I usually can hear.

17:35And I think that some of that's probably just a gift of mine, Dr. Scott, when I hear people, I'm like, I don't know if you learned the lesson there because I can still identify areas where you may be protecting yourself, where there's some mechanisms, uh, protective mechanisms. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm something I've been, um, struggling with in preparing for this interview is I want to ask you some controversial questions, but I also like, I'm scared. By all means. Um, I think it's important too, because I want to practice what I preach and because I don't

18:11plan on going completely off of social media and I'm going to continue to see where this path leads me. It's a reflection of capacity. And I'll be honest, like if I don't know how to answer it, if it makes me uncomfortable, I'll say it, uh, cause I think that that's also a reflection of what capacity, um, is as, as well. So I say, let's go for it.

18:39Hi all. I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self-actualize. In the service of that, I just had a new book come out called Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. In this book, I offer a science-backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope, not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to

19:10you, but by empowering you to tap into the best that is within you. Rise Above is available wherever you get your books. Are you a personal coach looking to take your coaching to the next level? I'm also excited to tell you that our Foundations of Self-Actualization Coaching, three-day immersive experience for coaches, is backed by popular demand. Foundations of Self-Actualization Coaching is a course offered to enhance your coaching practice by offering you evidence-based tools and insights to equip you to more effectively help your clients unlock their unique creative potential.

19:41You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. That's centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. Okay, now back to the show. I'm more concerned about me saying something stupid that gets me in trouble versus you saying something I think you're going to do great. I'm more scared about like- Will you trust your intentions? Yeah, and I think that's the really important point there. Yeah, is trusting your intentions. I love that. I love that you said that. I really do. People know I'm coming from a good place.

20:13And I'm also coming from- I'm just very curious- I'm just like curious about- about things. One- so- one- so let me see how I can phrase this. I've noticed sometimes when I give talks about overcoming a victim mindset, I will get someone in the audience saying, but Dr. Scott, what about black people? Or what about people, you know, people of color? And it- that question honestly boggles my mind. And because I don't view black people as a different type of species.

20:49You know, that- that they- what they're- you're saying there's no hope for black- what are you saying? My question is like, what do you- how do you respond to that when you get- have you ever gotten in that? First of all, you've already gotten that on your own Instagram pages. And then how do you respond to that when people say, you know, but- but what you're saying doesn't apply to marginalized people. Because I'd like to think my work applies equally to marginalized people as not marginalized people. And I think you do too. So I'm- this is my genuine question is like, how do you respond to it?

21:19Because I- I've been working on how I respond to it. Does that make sense? Yes. Um, so I have not responded to it yet. Uh, but I do see it because I- and I think that the difference is when people hear you say it, right? They hear it coming from a white male and you automatically associate- there's privilege there. So it's easy to dismiss- dismiss you in this sense. And I think that in this case, I do have privilege because I say the same things that

21:50you're saying is just that I have privilege because people see me as a black woman. They're like, well, she know what it's like. And I do. You have black privilege. Yeah. I have black privilege in this sense. I have black privilege in this sense to say what the white person can't say to other people or feel like you have the audacity to say. And, um, that dawned on me very- it didn't- I didn't realize that early on, right? But as I continue to, like, watch my following, because if I'm being honest, when I first noticed,

22:20um, I was like, man, like, my following is a lot of white people. And I was like, oh, gosh. Right? But I don't- I just see people as people. And if I'm being honest, when I started, like, my coaching and my therapy journey, like, I didn't cater myself to just black people or women because I didn't feel like I could grow as a professional. Right? And I ended up with probably some of the most challenging clients that made me enjoy this work just that much more. So when you say, how do you respond to that?

22:51I always go back to being- it's, you know, subject versus object, right? Can you separate yourself from your blackness? Because I am more than just black. And when I say, like, it's no different from, I am a mother, I am a wife, I am black. Can I take myself outside of centering myself around those identities enough to see objectively? And I don't think a lot of people know how to do that.

23:22I think that there- when we talk about identity and what we attach ourselves to, there's a lot of comfort in what it means to be black. And with a lot of things changing, some people still feeling like things have not changed. It's difficult to detach from that identity. And I understand that. But just because I understand that does not mean that I'm not going to call up your power because I have hope too. And if I'm being really honest, what I would tell people is you're never going to change

23:53being black. And you have no control over whether America or whoever it may be chooses to accept you or not. And that's the truth, whether we like it or not. And I think that as time has evolved with more marginalized communities, and when I say marginalized, I'm referring to whether it's LGBT or if you just think about disabled, disabled, whatever it may be, a person living with a mental illness, I can see myself in those

24:23people too now, if that makes sense. I think the difference is you're going to have the controversial conversations around LGBT, right? People are going to say, well, they choose that. Well, I don't choose to be- I didn't choose to be black, right? And that's too controversial for me, if I'm being honest. But what about the person that's born is disabled, that didn't choose to be born disabled? What about the person that lives with a bipolar disorder and they still choose to get up every single day?

24:53And I think that because that's my way of thinking, seeing how all these things are interconnected, it allows me to detach. The other thing I would say is I still very much so think that, I mean, I think maybe through three weeks ago I experienced racism. The difference is I don't pretend that it doesn't hurt or that people have to change. In fact, what I did three weeks ago was I came home and I cried. I was honest about my sadness and I allowed myself to feel it.

25:26And after that, it still didn't change or take away the responsibility of who do you choose to be? I mean, so sadness does, sadness does exist. Do I not have the conversations? I have two black boys. Will our conversations be different? Yes. Yes. Um, but I think that when we're talking about developing emotionally, you have to have the

25:57ability to hold sadness and joy, right? Yeah. And, uh, sometimes they coexist and I'm okay with that. Like there's, there's, there's a level of acceptance with sadness and I don't have to choose it all the time. But when it presents itself, I allow myself to be in it, mindful.

26:19Absolutely. Yeah. This is, um, I have a chapter in my book, Rise Above, Don't Be a Victim to Your Emotions, where I say, don't, you don't have to identify with your emotions. Um, I think that this is all intertwined, you know, issues of identity and, um, do you identify with your victimhood? Do you identify with what's best within you? I don't see a lot of people identifying with what's best within them as much as I'm seeing people identify with their pain, quite honestly. Um, so when does identity empower growth and when does it trap us in performance protection

26:50or limitation? Hmm. Um, I think that when identity gives you language for who you are and then it connects you with others. Um, for example, I could say that I am strong, right? There are pros and cons to that. It depends on what I am strong means. If I am strong means that I don't seek support or I don't ask for help, then that's when it

27:23becomes more of an identity versus like just the label, right? Like I can say like I'm a runner, for example, uh, and maybe sometimes identifying as a runner means that I know how to push through because we do have those moments where you just have to push through. But if you see yourself as a runner, that subject versus object, then you're probably going to be just pushing through life at all times and not necessarily knowing when to slow down. So I think that that is the difference. The identity becomes a trap when it turns more into performance and you're having to prove

27:58something like there's no permission to take a break from said identity. Can you say that last sentence one more time? There's a lot there.

28:12There's no permission to take a break from said identity because your identity becomes more about a performance. Oh, that's interesting. Wow. Um, there's a lot of performative vulnerability. And so what need is that fulfilling in a human? It's yeah, that's my question. One question I have.

28:44Certainly fulfilling some psychological need that the person obviously thinks they need. So my mind, my, my mind goes to, uh, the four existential, um, existentialism demands. And I think it's, I think it's two things. I think of freedom, right? Like when you have this freedom to choose and be whoever you want, I think their freedom is overwhelming. And me, I see a, you know, a psychological, um, challenge.

29:15And the other thing is meaninglessness. Like life has no inherent meaning. And if life has no inherent meaning, it again, it's your responsibility to figure out what that means. And I think I, it's hard. Like it's, it's, it's hard. Uh, yeah, but maybe there's, those are soothing illusions. Uh, maybe, maybe that's not the best way for those needs to be fulfilled. Maybe there are healthier ways that we can point to.

29:50Yeah. Would you agree? In terms of not attaching yourself for, yeah, well, I think it goes back. Not feeling the need to perform, uh, you know, get, you know, feel that, that compulsion to every time you feel a certain way, you have to get attention for it.

30:14I don't even know what people know that they're doing it though. No, I think it's unconscious. I think identity development is, uh, it's, it's difficult because I think it's, it's a spiritual journey too, in a, in a, in a lot of ways. Um, I think it's difficult to really know, like what I'll tell you where my mind is going. Dr. Scott, I got an opportunity to, uh, well, I just take like a lot of people within the medical field today.

30:44Uh, doctors, for example, people want the title, but they don't want what comes, the responsibility that comes with it. However, the performative piece comes in when it's like, well, I'm a doctor and we work all of these hours. Right. I say the victimhood doesn't look like what it used to when people used to say, like, you're just at the effect of what's happening to you. It's more so like, I'm losing because I chose to be a doctor, right?

31:14Like I'm losing because I chose to go into the medical industry. And what I, to me, that sounds like absurd because you have to do a lot of work to become a doctor and then you somehow play victim to it. But because you have these conversations around burnout and the mental health conversations, I think all of these things have supported these, the, the victimhood narratives that

31:45we're seeing today. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Maybe they, they, uh, they give an incentive. Oh yeah. Cause it creates community too. I mean, you create community around pain and, and, and, and struggles.

32:05Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. Um, so how do we, how do we shift people or show them the promised land from short-term strategies to long-term growth, especially when life feels overwhelming? Cause obviously we're, we are showing compassion here to people who are suffering. Um, we're not, we're not the pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of people, you know, neither of us, neither of us. No, it's not sustainable. Right. Right. So, so, uh, what are some, yeah, strategies?

32:38Um, so I'm going to be, I don't know that I am really great with strategies. Cause the first thing that comes to my mind is if I'm thinking about it from a professional standpoint, I think that as professionals, you have to ensure that your identity is not wrapped up in helping people. And when your identity gets wrapped up in helping people, I think it makes it difficult for us to sit with a discomfort, uh, people having to go through the hard parts of life. And if I don't feel like I'm helping you in this moment or second, third, fourth, or fifth

33:13session, then what value added do I, do I bring? And so I think about it from a, from, from that professional standpoint, you have to be okay with discomfort in this field. There are no quick fixes for it. And when we think about how the world is changing in terms of the demands, um, I like to say that I think that one, at one, at one point in time, it was okay to cope.

33:45And I think that today you have to actually develop, like you have to actually develop people. And if we do not develop people, then people won't be able to meet the modern day demands that we're seeing. When I say the modern day demands, I'm just talking about more resources, more information that's available to you because you have to be able to discern and make distinctions between

34:19all of this information. And to me, that's your mental capacity. And from an emotional standpoint, if it's always too overwhelming, then you cannot develop in that sense. And what I've seen a lot within our industry is it's like, okay, well, you set boundaries, right? Or mental health has now becomes more like a safe word and mental health shouldn't be a safe word. Um, if I go back to my, my schooling and my training, I'll never forget. I seen a different, a definition in the textbook.

34:49I don't remember the complete definition, but I saw the word optimization. And I was like, well, how can I optimize if everything that I'm thinking about doing puts me more into my bubble and protects my peace, protects my mental health. So then I started thinking your mental health, isn't something that you protect. It shouldn't become a shield. So when I think about my mental health, I think of it as a system. It's how you think, feel, and behave and how you think, feel, and behave should evolve over time.

35:22And, but I also say that that's a choice too, right? Because not everybody, if we were to use your word, not everybody wants to self-actualize, I guess, for, for whatever that means for each individual. Um, so I, it's, there's so much ambiguity there because a lot of it is based on, I think I saw you say something in a podcast, um, recently about thriving and you really caught my attention. I don't remember your exact words, but you said that you could have no, you could have

35:56no mental health struggles or something and not be thriving and you could live with mental health struggles and still be thriving or something. And I was like, so good. It's true. That's true. So good. So it, that was good. That was really good. I have, I have a, uh, a picture, uh, in, in the hang out there, which is, uh, I don't suffer from mental insanity. I enjoy every minute of it and as a girl, a girl who looks crazy on a swing.

36:27Um, no, well, you know, I just, I, I think that, um, you know, we have this assumption that, uh, well, if you're, you're perfectly mentally healthy and, uh, you follow all the rules of society perfectly, you dot every eye and that, you know, you show up to work and time all the time and blah, blah, blah. You're somehow thriving in this world. And I've seen a lot of, uh, unbelievably creative people, uh, who are, who are really productive and happy and who have a little bit of madness in them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I, I, I see it.

36:58I see it daily. Um, I recently had a psychologist, actually a black psychologist that reached out to me and, uh, well, I actually had reached out to her cause I thought there was opportunity for us to collaborate, even though we have different worldviews. Um, but she basically told me that your content is harmful and it does, it has the ability to do damage to our community and I was like, okay.

37:38How do you respond to that? Uh, it's, you, you, you, you sound just so generous in, to me, um, in how you respond to that and maybe, and even extend like a potential like opportunity for cooperation and collaboration. I mean, that's, to me, that's a very generous response to someone saying something like that to you. Well, cause I don't, I mean, I could say the same thing that I think her content is harmful, but I don't think that you get into this industry because you want to cause harm.

38:10Uh, when I look at her content and I see her say that I am an expert in black mental health, like to me, that doesn't mean anything, but I understand that it has meaning to other people. And, um, so I would never say that her content is, it's harmful because I understand that people are on different journeys and I think that her intent is to do, do good, put good out into the world.

38:41I think that when we as professionals start to take our roles too seriously, we could do harm in that sense. Um, and I don't take myself that seriously. Um, I mean, I believe in what I believe in, but it doesn't discredit what you believe in. Right.

39:08Yeah. Well, well, it's, what a very mature stance you're taking. I don't know. I don't know if it's mature. It's, it's just what I would, well, I don't know. Well, I don't know if it's mature. Okay. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad we're, we were able to have the kind of, uh, friendship that allows us to be so real with each other. The way that I started, it was never about talking to like white people, black people. I just wanted to talk to humanity, like in general.

39:41Of course. Yes. And a lot of that is driven by my own values. Like I have children, I have a 10 year old and I have a three year old and they don't see the world. I mean, my 10 year old, he does not see the world in the same manner that I see the world. Uh, when I think about a conversation, um, uh, he, he's old enough to know that Trump has been our president, right? And we don't talk politics in this house because race could come in often. Uh, I want my kids to be able to my, both my husband and I, we want them to be able to

40:13explore on their own. But I will tell you this, um, my son, I think he was in, I don't know, second grade or third grade. And he was like, Oh gosh, president Trump is the president or whatever, whatever the first term was. And I can tell you that other family members were really upset about him saying those things. And to me, it was like, you just have a child that's like, this is our, this is the president of the United States of America. You talked to my 10 year old today. We were actually January of this year. We were coming through the airport and he said that, um, he saw Trump on something and

40:48he was like, mom, I don't think that Trump is a nice person. And I said, well, why do you say that? And he says, because I don't think he's kind to all people. And he says that the Obamas were really kind. We've never taught him that. And I didn't give a response back or anything to him. And I just said, Oh, interesting, son. And we moved on.

41:12There's nothing to say. And I get emotional from those, um, conversations because I love my kids. Like when I think about my kids, I think about the world just being a better place. And when I say a better place, meaning it starts at home, meaning the conversation that I feed into. And I think about development, going back to development. When you think of industry versus inferiority, people don't like when I say it, but, um, as black people, we have a responsibility to make sure that we're not starting the conversations

41:45that creates a sense of inferiority in our household. Children see color. Yes. But they don't understand race. Um, and until they can develop mentally, get to a place, I think that the conversations that you have can create a sense of inferiority before they even know what's this whole black white thing that's, um, happening. I know that at least for me, that was my experience. Um, it's, um, it's sort of, they are better. You always have to work twice as hard and that narrative, um, creates those identity

42:23traps that we were talking about earlier and also victimhood in a lot of ways.

42:29You know, I couldn't agree with you more. And I just think there's, it's just, there's such an obvious, um, thing going on where I can make a lot of the same points you make on social media and it just doesn't hit the same way because of the difference, the different colors of our skin. And I think that's so fascinating to me as like a human experiment as well, like at a meta level, not, not, not, and not taking it personally. I get it.

43:01I'm not saying I don't get it. I'm not stupid. I get it. But I think it's interesting. For instance, I have long said suffering is not a competition. I really believe that to be true. Um, I saw a beautiful, uh, I, I, I think all your stuff is beautiful, but you had something where you said your pain is not unique or special. Um, for some reason, when I make that point, it, it just, it gets such pushback, um, like shut up white man, you know, there's just a whole different, the messenger seems to matter.

43:33And that pains me at such a deep, deep, profound level that bothers me because I would just so, I would so love not to be judged by the color of my skin and for, but by the content of my message. Um, and, and, um, this is not white man grievance, by the way, this is not what that is. I'm going to listen to Dr. Scott and I'm going to, for sure, they're going to say, here, here goes the white man doing what they do all the time. Like, they're going to call you a coward and everything else and using me to explore.

44:05I'm telling them that that's what they're going to say. Like, you're right. They are, but I think it's, if we go back to like, if I put myself in your, I don't have a problem with acknowledging that because I see the humanity, uh, in it. I've, I've, I started reading your book. Um, I enjoy hearing your story about how you started off in like special education. And then at some point you were like, no. And then now you're teaching at some of the, you know, top universities.

44:35And I think that we like to categorize, uh, what I've learned from, I always tell people, so I tell people that I went from shit to sugar, and then I wanted to go back from sugar to shit. So just giving some context, typical stories, grew up in the projects. Mom had me at 17 years old, no high school diploma, ended up dying of an overdose. And by the time I turned 18, 19 years old, one of my dad's brothers, he had made it.

45:07And when I say made it, he's built a multimillion dollar organization. And when I came into his organization, I struggled. In fact, I don't work there anymore because I mean, I had to find, create my own meaning in life because I just didn't, it didn't feel meaningful and purposeful. But I am so grateful that I didn't have the terminology like microaggressions and because I was so afraid to talk about my experiences with other people that I went to college with or I grew up with because it was like, oh girl, you, you, you live in a good life.

45:40But I was, I really felt like I was suffering. Like, I felt like I had did well in, you know, like growing up in the projects because I had really appreciated what I had, even though I wanted more, but I appreciated what I had. And then when I went into that situation and I started to, like, I had power, right? Like we have power now. I have the ability to fire you. I have the ability to fire you as a white male. And I think that when you, having that experience changed me in a very transformative way.

46:17One, I realized that power will reveal who you are because there are certain things that I could not do. And there are things that just also revealed to me how I could even be evil in a sense. Right. And then just knowing that people are going to be people, like the things that people would say to me, knowing that my uncle owned the organization, they still did what they did. And I would say that my uncle is very open-minded in a sense. His organization represents a melting pot.

46:51And that means that he's been able to grow in different ways. He didn't just stay in his bubble of like, we're just going to hire all blacks because that's not a representation of who he is. He believes in humanity and people in general. And I think that some of that has rubbed off on me as well. Like my dad, I don't know anything else besides this. I get emotional. Like, I don't know how to hate. I don't know how to hate, even if you hate. So for me, that is hard.

47:22It's just, it does not feel right to my core. And I've even had, I've had the experiences where, because I'm in corporate now, you know, where I could go to my uncle and say, like, I'm so angry, right? We're on the killings of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery. And like, let's just, let's just fire one of them. I don't have the heart to do it. Like, it doesn't feel right. But to know that we could have those, you start to really see yourself in other people.

47:53And I've really got that experience. And I don't know that other people can really take a look at themselves in the mirror, or some people just don't have that exposure. And because I've had that exposure, like, I can't undo my experiences. Like, it's like, how do you take those experiences and truly grow and evolve for them? And so when I see people, I just see, I see people, I still see the context, right? I'm not oblivious. I'm not a, I understand racism. I know, I know when it's being exhibited towards me, um, I honor it and I move on, uh, because

48:32acting within integrity and what my values are is the only thing that truly matters to me. My gosh, I love that. Thanks. Thanks for sharing all that with me. Um, in a lot of ways, what I'm hearing you say is you really like to lead with your best self. And I don't know why that needs to be a controversial thing to say these days, um, that we're in any moment we can choose to react from a place of pain, trauma, and our past, or we can choose

49:04to react with a place of what will cause the optimal growth for me and this relationship. What will allow me to demonstrate my character? Yeah. You know, what will allow me to demonstrate there's hope for the situation, um, to be resolved, not, um, going to say something that's going to continually perpetuate a cycle of aggression and leading to nowhere good.

49:34And that's what I'm hearing you say. And I think it's wonderful. So it's, I, I, I'm so glad I could get you in my podcast today to highlight that message, to highlight your message, which is so important and so needed right now. I think it's unfortunate that in certain circles, this message is controversial. I almost think it's, I would use the word absurd, that it's controversial. I would agree. And I, um, thank you for the opportunity. I don't believe that things just happen just because, um, one of the things that I get all

50:06the time, people are like, well, where's your research? And I'm like, I don't owe you any research. Like, in fact, you can probably go and you go follow Dr. Scott for that, because that's what he does. Like, I just got to tell him, he's like, we don't understand mental health. And I could pull out research, but I never started it for those, uh, reasons and not to go down that path. But I think that there's, I think that we change or try, right. Or work towards by having the conversations that you and I are having right now by you

50:41being who you are as a person and being willing to share your truth, even with you knowing that there are going to be people like when this episode releases, they're going to attack you for whatever reason. They're going to attack me for whatever reason, because it's just the way that it is. And then some people will really appreciate it. But I think that there's opportunity, um, to continue to spread your messaging. Cause I do think that the research matters. I think that we like to turn away from truth oftentimes.

51:13And to me, it's always been about, um, it's just truth. And that's why I say with mental health, it's hard for me to listen to the conversations because at the core, I understand what mental health is and what it is not. So it doesn't really matter what anyone says to me, because that's one of the things that I'm very stubborn to, like, you can't tell me that your mental health is something that is supposed to become a shield or something you use to weaponize others with because it's,

51:48it's a system that you optimize no differently than you would do with your laptop. You updated and, uh, yeah. So I, I, I see it that way.

51:59I like the way you see it. Identity is an interesting one. You know, I've been always very sensitive to how I'm perceived because of, uh, like I was given a special ed label as a kid. And that was literally, that became the singular way people perceived me, even though that's not how I wanted to perceive myself. And I think the white man thing is an interesting thing because out of all my identities, I would say that doesn't even make the top 50 list of my most prominent identity.

52:29It's not like I, you know? And so I think there's something really deep here. That's like, what do you do when people, uh, persist in, uh, in, in, in, in kind of imparting an identity onto you? That's not even, it's not even close to being core to your identity. And it goes deep. It goes into like trans issues, you know, like what if you're, you know, you, it's like you want to desperately identify as the opposite gender. People keep continuing to perceive you as, as, as your biological sex, right?

53:01So that's, I mean, they're confront trans people confront that all the time, but I'm saying, I think in our own way, we all confront that, um, in various ways. Um, I think you confront that with people who insist on only viewing you through the lens of a person of color. I am saying, I empathize that in my own way with people who persist in only viewing me through the lens of, oh, there's another white man talking about how we, how suffering is in a competition. And so I think that, you know, even though we have a different colored skin, I really

53:34would like to believe we bonded here today over a similar human experience. Am I making sense at all? Make a whole lot of sense to me, Dr. Scott. Well, thank you so much. Um, I really appreciate you coming on my show. I'm glad that in my own way, I could shine a further spotlight on you and I'm rooting for you. I, uh, you know, I, I really recommend people to follow you and your wise words. So thank you so much. Thank you.