The Gentle Power of Sisu w/ Dr. Elisabet Lahti

Introduction to Sisu

0:00Even though now this story that I'm sharing, it sounds quite unusual and it was a big feat as, you know, healing from any trauma is a big feat. You know, it's a trauma, healing is always an ultra run for all of us. But inside that journey, I would say that it's a misconception to think that Sisu is only the big things we do. I personally think that it's those micro moments in our ordinary life where we either choose to, let's say, turn away from our family member or partner or from a challenge and

0:36or we keep our heart closed instead of facing what is there or feeling the tough emotion, for example, it's those tiny little things that actually really end up defining our future.

Guest Introduction

0:54Today, it's a great pleasure to have Dr. Elizabeth Lahti on the show. Elizabeth is an awarded educator, applied researcher of psychology and founder of Sisu Lab, which builds communities and organizational cultures. Sisu is a Finnish word which means extreme courage and it's all about persevering even when you think you've had enough. Dr. Lahti is the world's foremost researcher of this concept and in this episode, we discuss her own personal struggles and hardships as a great example of Sisu, as well as her vision

1:25for a peaceful world that integrates the yin and yang of strength and gentleness. I've known Dr. Lahti for many years and it has been a pleasure watching her grow and flourish. This episode was a long time in the making. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Elizabeth Lahti. Dr. Elizabeth Lahti, it is such an honor and privilege to have you on the Psychology Podcast. This is super fun. I've always enjoyed our encounters, so this is really a treat. Thanks a lot.

1:56Yes, this is a long time coming. This is a long time coming. You've been studying this concept called Sisu for a very long time and also embodying it and living it for a very long time. Since the last time we connected, I believe you actually changed your first name. Is that right? Am I right about that? Yeah, I drew the line from Emilia to Elizabeth. So it is my official name. And I went through a little process when I turned 40 and maybe it had something to do with that.

2:32But I realized the meaning of those two names. So Emilia comes from Greek word that means to rival, to combat, to kind of push really hard. And then Elizabeth comes from Hebrew female name Elisheva, which means God is my oath. So there is this kind of going from pushing and doing things really the hard way into more of kind of opening the hands and embracing a bit more softer approach to life.

3:03So I figured that it's something that actually describes the way I approach life nowadays. So yeah, I go with Elizabeth nowadays. Cool. Thanks for telling us about that. Yeah, sometimes I think it's like people feel like they don't really feel an identity with the name they were given. And a lot of people call me by like a different name and it starts to make me think, well, people perceive me as that other guy. Maybe I should change my name to that.

3:33It's just something interesting. But you haven't changed your gender now, right? Gender hasn't changed. No. Okay, okay. Making sure that nothing else has changed. Just the name. Okay, cool. Well, it's a real delight to have you here.

Understanding Sisu

3:46And I was wondering if you could tell our audience a little bit about this concept of sisu because it's a very Finnish thing. And I don't know how many of our listeners are from Finland. Yeah, sisu is a really old word from Finnish language. It's about 500 years old and a bit of part of the Finnish cultural history. What they often say is that you can't understand Finland or a Finn if you don't know this word, sisu. And the word comes from the word sisu, it's epimology, and it literally means the inside or the interior.

4:22And what it denotes is this kind of very deep fortitude. I would call it the fire in the belly in the face of adversity. So when we come to that place where we come to our preconceived limit of our capacities, mental or physical ones, and we yet don't give up, we might and often feel this what I would think William James meant when he described the second wind. So in time of crisis, we find this deeper reserve of energy within us.

4:57And oftentimes when I describe sisu to foreign audiences through stories, I see this light go off in people's eyes because everyone who's been to that place, into that dark forest, you know, we know how it feels like. Dark forest. Wow. That's funny. The dark forest of the soul. Yeah. Your writing also has a little bit of a poetic feel to it. Yeah. I draw a lot of inspiration. Yes.

5:27And the kind of mythical. And I think we are such a multi-layered being, this whole human experience, that I kind of tend to take all the help I can get to parse together this puzzle and try to understand it from different angles. And I think I've also gone to so many dark forests that I've had to kind of start also taking the soul into consideration where my cognition and my mind kind of failed me.

5:59Wow. You said you've been in many dark forests. Wow.

Personal Experience with Sisu

6:03Do you feel comfortable sharing a personal moment where you felt your sisu was tested? Oh my goodness. I think I need to pull a library and pull something out of it. I mean, we all have those places and no one is immune to adversity.

6:21The beginning point of sisu, that is something that it's already now far away. It was 15 years ago. But the reason why I ever even started researching sisu was when I was living in New York. It was maybe about five years before you and I met or maybe a little bit less, three and a half years. And I had moved there with a life partner at the time, but the relationship turned very abusive. It was emotional abuse first, but then it turned very physically violent as well.

6:52And by the time it ended, and when I started this really long journey to healing, which I didn't even really realize at that time how long it would be. But it also, I would have to say, took me on an adventure into myself. And as I was rebuilding that kind of lost innocence and trust, but I discovered a lot of things from that place. And that is really the root of what I do is to try to understand how we rebuild those parts and how can that be extended to the situation that we are now also as a humanity we're facing.

7:31But the question that kept me up at night at that time after the relationship was this thought that how do humans overcome extreme adversity? How do we do that? Who overcomes? Who doesn't? How might I find strength? What would be those tools? And then the second part was also that because adversity is unavoidable, we all have some kind of things that happen to us, that can we sometimes use adversity as a fuel?

8:03That was the second part of the question. But these two led me on quite an adventure that has been filled with serendipity, incredible encounters, and also really re-establishing and reinventing my own Sisu and my life force. Yeah, and you might still reinvent. Yes.

PhD Research on Sisu

8:23Yeah, your PhD takes a phenomenological approach. Can you explain to our listeners what in the world that means? Yes, to use that lens is to really place yourself inside or in the middle of the research. So it is experiential research where you become part of what has been examined. So it's a little bit different from the positivist way where you only observe things or you measure them, but you actually allow your own narrative to be part of it, which is that you, of course, you record everything, but you allow that voice of the researcher be a very obvious part of it.

9:09Which to me sounds quite honest, because always, almost with everything we do, the researcher is part of it anyways, in which our interests direct are what we want to focus on, for example, and all of that. So with Sisu, it seemed pretty obvious after I did this survey first, in which I asked people that what do they even think what Sisu is? Because it was completely unresearched at the time.

9:40It was very little understood when I asked people that what is Sisu in an ordinary conversation? I would get these very obscure answers and no one could really explain this to me. And that's what kind of piqued my interest that, okay, we have this concept from 500 years ago, and there's something in it. And so I got a lot of data. There's a research paper on it called Embodied Fortitude. And it's really good.

10:11My mom recommends it. And so I realized pretty soon that I had still many more questions that I had answers. And there's something in this concept of Sisu, because it is a phenomenon that relates so much to our experience and feeling when we are in that dark forest, that I realized pretty soon that I need to somehow get closer to it. I need to take it on the road. And I literally did, actually, through this physical thing that I did.

10:44So that was a way for me to gain data on as it happens. When I go to that place where I'm stripped so bare from my tactics and my mental strategies, and I feel that I am already done, but because we always find the strength, I wanted to understand that in that lived moment. Yeah, you trained to run 1,500 miles across the length of New Zealand. I remember watching your videos, and you trained kung fu in a martial arts academy in rural China.

11:24Wow. Yeah, it was fun and crazy. I would never do either of those two again.

11:33But you did it. But I did it. Yeah, I did it. And I'm so happy that I had this enthusiasm, which I also believe is a form of life force, that it can really drive us when we have a vision of something we want to do. And with New Zealand, there was also this social activism that weaved into the campaign. So I did a full trifecta. I went to a country that I felt like was my spiritual home, which was New Zealand. So there was something that pulled me.

12:03I had a dream about running the length of New Zealand. So that's how the whole thing got started. So it was this totally crazy idea. Totally randomly picked the number, 50 days. Then I looked at the map, and I'm like, okay, that's about 30 miles a day. And got to collect data for my PhD. And also, I combined it with this season of silence campaign to open a conversation around how do we build compassionate cultures and societies and reduce violence? How do we build more social support, you know, so these things don't happen?

12:36So all those combined created this perfect, beautiful story for me that somehow carried me through.

Running Across New Zealand

12:44And I wasn't a runner when I got this idea. I trained for two years. And this always stands as a testament and a testimonial of these powers and strengths that lie in all of us that are oftentimes unexplored. And I think it was part of the big trauma I had that actually really pushed me because I wanted to reinvent the narrative that we have of overcomers or survivors of domestic violence.

13:16Because when I was one, I realized how many, you know, there's often this question of people are seeing that they're weak somehow. Why didn't you leave? It's a very complex, very nuanced question. And I wanted to reframe anyone who's gone through any kind of abuse of any sort that, you know, we're strong. We have incredible capacity and strength and we have beautiful futures. And so that was driving me to go through all that.

Book Announcement

13:52Hi, all. I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about. As you all know, I'm committed to helping people self-actualize. In the service of that, I just had a new book come out called Rise Above. Overcome a victim mindset, empower yourself, and realize your full potential. In this book, I offer a science-backed toolkit to help you overcome your limiting beliefs and take control of your life. Are you tired of feeling helpless? This book will offer you hope not by identifying with the worst things that have happened to you,

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Back to the Show

15:05Okay, now back to the show. Have you gotten a lot of messages and people writing you thank yous and things like that? Yeah, it was truly amazing. It was a very communal effort. We organized 15 events along the run in different cities, and in each we had women's circles, men's circles, somewhere I gave talks after running 30 miles on that day, for example.

15:3630 miles, wow.

15:40Yeah. Wow. I remember watching your journey. Yeah, just being able to, yeah.

15:47Go on, go on. Yeah, it started with me being able to run a few miles and then, you know, extending slowly and then slowly in this process of just going through the motions, which is really this part of Sisu that is not so mystical, actually, this inner strength that nothing has ever changed without action or effort. And these very little tiny things and steps stacked on top of each other bring us to the finish goal

16:19or the end line at some point. Did you listen to podcasts while you were running or listen to music? Scott, I listened to every single podcast of the psychology podcast back then when I was training. So you were with me. I listened to like seasons of different podcasts and a lot of music. But sometimes I would first run in silence for the first few hours. So then I would kind of reward myself, you know, with music or something like that.

16:52Amazing. Wow. Well, what's one of the biggest misconceptions you think exists out there about Sisu? Well, I'd have to say that even though now this story that I'm sharing, it sounds quite unusual and it was a big feat as, you know, healing from any trauma is a big feat. You know, it's a trauma. Healing is always an ultra run for all of us. But inside that journey, I would say that it's a misconception to think that Sisu is only the big things we do.

17:30I personally think that it's those micro moments in our ordinary life where we either choose to, let's say, turn away from our family member or partner or from a challenge and or we keep our heart closed instead of facing what is there or feeling the tough emotion, for example. It's those tiny little things that actually really end up defining our future, the present first and then the future.

18:00So if we, in those moments, when we really feel the pull to just abandon everything or be, you know, in a bad mood to someone, what if we actually use that inner strength to do the thing that might even feel impossible, to face someone with kindness or with curiosity or open a conversation or a dialogue? You know, that's often very tough.

18:26Yeah, for sure. However, it's not exactly the same thing as grit, right? No, all these concepts are, you know, they're in the same family, sisters, brothers, however you want to say it. And it's impossible to kind of draw a line, even though we researchers and humans would like to put them in a box that this is where Sisu begins and something else ends. But I would say a couple of things, for example, of grit, research by Angela Duckworth,

18:57which is passion and perseverance. So this very long-term work toward a goal. So it means there's passion and then there's this day in, day out. But Sisu is more like it happens in the moment. So it's not about the long-distance goal, but it's actually in a moment when we feel that we are at the limits of our perceived capacities. It's almost like you come to the edge of Grand Canyon and there's no way to continue the journey.

19:28So you need to pull out some, a bit more momentous reserves in order to, let's say in a marathon, there's a thing that marathoners call the wall, which they often call that it's impenetrable. But yet most of the people who start the marathon, they finish. So we draw from something within us and we get to continue. So Sisu happens more in the moment. So we borrow a bit of this embodied fortitude. But the second thing, which is actually very curious, is that whereas grit, perseverance, hardiness,

20:03they are qualities of the mind. And so Sisu is what I would call embodied fortitude instead of mental fortitude. That it has a more of this flavor of something that we don't quite even understand, but we do have more research from embodied cognition of understanding how our body works with our mind and our emotions. Thinking of, for example, our gut microbiome from gastroenterology,

20:37where this microbiome through this unconscious process influences our responses to stress, to pain, to our emotions. So there's this very deep dialogue happening at all times. And it's much more broader than we, for a long time in psychology, have thought that we're so obsessed with the mind. And so was I. I had a long time before I realized that Sisu was not about the same quality, that it is something a little bit different.

21:08And it complements this inquiry that we have about human strength and fortitude.

21:16You've thought a lot about this, I can tell. Oh, I spend a lot of time with this. Yes.

21:23Do you ever feel like some of the academic aspects were unnecessary? Like, you know, they're necessary to get a PhD, but, you know, a lot of the Sisu is in the doing of the Sisu. It's not in the thinking about the Sisu, right? Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. Yeah, it's, and a lot of the work that I do is very, I work with trauma survivors. And, you know, there's really very little point to bring tables and research papers there.

21:54It's so much about kind of being able to be present when there's even no words for that. And so, but of course you need the, I'm so grateful for the foundation that I have. And of course, having such a big framework of doctoral research, it in itself equipped me to reach so high that without it, I would have never done some of the things I did.

22:24So, it all worked for the best. I'd say so. And now I get to be called Dr. Elizabeth Lofty by Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. So. Well, it's doctor, doctor, doctor. Yeah, of course. Now, you have the book. It's called Gentle Power. Yeah. Is this true? True story? Am I telling a true story? That's a true story. Yes. And in this book, you highlight another side of Sisu that goes beyond sheer toughness.

Gentle Power

22:54Can you talk about that? Yes. And it is a perfect bridge from the previous question, actually. And when you said that, wow, I've spent, you've spent a lot of time with this. And I don't think I would have been able to be so excited and passionate about Sisu for 15 years if there wasn't this other side. But, you know, this whole toughness thing wouldn't propel me to keep going with it. But what I realized about Sisu through my own process first, when I was in New Zealand, I had this really huge realization.

23:31It was day 12. And I call it the miracle of day 12. Because, you know, at that time I had ran these 30 mile days. I had an injury that was developing on my right foot. So, everything was a little bit uncertain. Can I continue? It was really painful. And that pain, you know, it took away my, I couldn't even observe the beauty around me. I had a hard time connecting when I was running with people. Because, you know, pain makes us turn inwards because we need to manage it. And I was at the point of like, what do I do?

24:03You know, I have set up this whole campaign. We have events coming up. And, you know, it's this age old question with our 42 that when should we still push forward or should we now stop? There's never an easy solution. And we kind of have to learn, you know, and figure it out. But I had this ongoing conversation with the road because I was there alone.

24:30And this road kept asking me questions, you know, or my subconscious, you know. And at some point it said that, you know, Amelia, I was back then, you know, that's like, Amelia, do you see that next bend over there? And I said like, yeah, you know. And then I heard the response that, well, you know, when you run there, guess what you're going to see? More road and another bend and then more road. And the pain will stop when you make it stop.

25:00Yeah. And, you know, at that point I started this process of really going into these deep layers of myself where I realized that it actually was or had been easier for me to be. hard on myself than to be gentle and kind and have mercy. Oh, yeah. That's deep. That's deep. It was, you know. And looking afterwards, it feels like this whole run for my own personal journey almost existed for this day 12 to kind of, if we think of alchemy, which is, I wrote a book for Finnish speaking people.

25:40And it's called The Alchemy of Sisu. And, you know, of course, taking a bit of a risk with such a name. But for me, because alchemy is such a perfect word for this transformation that happens from lead to gold, which Carl, you, you know, spoke a lot about this transformation of our psyche. And the lead, for it to turn into gold, it has to melt. And what do we need for that melting is heat. And that's where this potential and the gift of adversity also comes, even though no one wants it and we resist it.

26:14But there is a process that we can actually take away gifts from it. And so at that point, what I did was I simulated myself at the end of the 50 days that, okay, let's imagine that I get through all these days and I've done it. And I used this question from Mark Allen, who's, I think he's a six-time Ironman world champion, so a total guru of Sisu and physical capacity. And I asked him that, what's the one advice that you gave me for this run?

26:47And Mark looked at me and he said that, honor yourself. And I took this and I looked into those past the 50 days that if I arrive, can I say that I honored myself? Or did I do it at all costs? And kind of reverse engineering from there to that moment, it was actually very easy for me to make the right decision and kind of cut that consecutive days, which was the plan. And then we went to see, went to the ER to look what was happening with the foot, you know, and the doctor on call happened to be an ultra runner himself.

27:23So, you know, he didn't bash me for being a crazy person, but he understood, you know. And luckily, all that I needed was a day off. And then I switched my strategy a little bit. There was no plan B. The plan was to run. That was it. But at that point, I realized that, okay, we need to do something. So, I kept the adventure human powered and I cycled some parts of it in the middle. So, I caught on those 30 miles I lost and it continued. So, I was then kind of zigzagging, running and cycling until my foot was okay again.

27:56But that changed everything. And the joy came back. I had my autonomy back on this beautiful run that I had designed, you know. And I learned a lot about taking care of myself and combining this toughness with also gentleness. And so, gentle power is the higher octave of Sisu. It's the constructive expression of Sisu. Because we are often in danger of pushing too hard.

28:29So, we must balance it with something that brings us, again, into that place of where we honor ourselves and others also. Because we can easily be hurtful to other people as well through our Sisu. It can be hurtful to ourselves. We can end up with burnout, you know, all kinds of things. We can end up getting disconnected from our peers, our coworkers. You know, we are too harsh on them. And then it can impair our thought process. So, Sisu must also be informed by reason.

29:01Yeah, I love that. I actually just 30 minutes ago got off a call with Susan Cain who wrote the book Quiet. And I was thinking before I read your book Gentle Power, I thought you were making the point that, you know, a lot of introverts can have grit. It doesn't have to be such a growly thing to do, for lack of a better way of putting it. Well, that's maybe one of the misunderstandings around Sisu.

29:36But, you know, we need balance with the toughness, with the gentleness in order to be wholesome, integrated humans. Yeah, so you can have self-compassion with yourself. You can have compassion with others even while you're, quote, dominating the competition. I mean, people, you know, get so obsessed with dominance. Everyone's got to win an argument these days. Yeah. Politics is really horrifying to me right now in America.

30:11Yeah. This notion that words are violence, I disagree with. And, you know, I just wonder in your work with curbing violence, do you, you know, like, what are your thoughts on, like, the Charlie Kirk killing and all that, you know, that happened in America? Like, you know, like, I'm sure that violence is quite broadly, you're against violence and violence of words as well, right? Violence in all words, you know, I see that we have a responsibility for protecting life.

30:50So anything that diminishes, cuts off emotional wings from another person, you know, we need to, like, one of the core things of Sisu, not silence was this idea of zero tolerance to violence, you know? And there's this, because I've been thinking of where do I take Sisu, not silence now? Because it's such a broad concept, you know, the Jewish courage over silence. And it's not only this interpersonal violence, but it's in school bullying, you know, it's at workplaces, it's in small communications, it's online commenting, it's everywhere.

31:27And, you know, there's so much talk about toxic leadership nowadays, because it is so rampant all over the world. But what makes me really curious, or where do I kind of come, where do I go with this is, the really untapped potential, and the real fulcrum of change is the bystanders, the masses of people who also we allow bad, poor leadership in our workplaces.

31:57And when we form cultures where there is zero tolerance to violence, and we have those conversations, those tough conversations directly, and using gentle power, which means that we balance the harshness that can come with the direct conversation sometimes. I mean, sometimes we need to be super tough to, obviously, but bringing in that humanity into all of that, you know, that we can rise to our best, as we are, what we need to see from each other now is like, the excellence.

32:30But I'm a huge fan of Jackson Cuts, and he's coined this, he's created a project called the Upstander Project. And that is really about empowering and inspiring and training, you know, the bystanders, how to stand up. And of course, Todd, Todd Kashtan, you know, the art of insubordination, all of that. And so, using our sisu a bit more for that.

33:00So, I think there's a place for every human in this global transformation that we are going through now, you know.

33:09Can you elaborate a little bit? That when we see something that is diminishing to humanity, when we see violence, that we don't simply stay silent, but we have the courage to speak up. Speak out against it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's free speech.

33:32Sounds like you're pro-free speech.

33:36So, I have to say now that as a, define free speech.

33:42I'm coming from Finland, so I might be a little bit out of the concept in the US. Yeah, well, just having a diversity of viewpoints and that being allowed, you know, in a lot of ways, free speech is the opposite of a, of a, like, of a totalitarian regime, you know, where everyone has to have the same viewpoint or else you're murdered, you know. Like, you know, we want a real democracy where we allow and defend other people's right to speak their opinion, even if we disagree with them.

34:16Yes. Yeah, yeah. How can people develop their sisu muscles? What are some tips? Help, help me. Nice, no, sisu muscles. Yeah, that's a good comparison, by the way, because, you know, we, we, we do the exercises and that's how it starts. Um, I, I, I drew something on paper, I actually wanted to coin something from sisu, you know, using the, the words, uh, themselves so it can be a little memory, uh, tool. So, I was thinking that how to develop sisu, so the S, the first one, you know, it's like, it's start now.

34:53The best day to start, uh, uh, training our sisu muscle was yesterday. The second best day is today, uh, and just this thing that our brain learns and we change, uh, through repetition, you know, neuroplasticity is on our side with this one. So, finding what is that edge for you, uh, is it a athletic one, you know, or is it some kind of an emotional thing? Is it relational? Wherever that little thing is where it feels that it's, it takes one to the discomfort zone and we might avoid it.

35:32So, gently, I call it also, you know, that we take care of ourselves when we do that. So, go comfortably into discomfort. The point isn't to be hard on yourself, you know. Sometimes we need to do that, but when we're training sisu, it's enough to choose the, the little bit of the discomfort thing. Because again, it rewires our brain. So, when we are actually at the point that we need our sisu, we have that runway that it's a little bit more easy to actually go and face that tough, tough thing.

36:02Um, and then the second one that I, I put there into it. So, developing those, the somatic intelligence in us, that intuition, because it can be developed. You know, over time, we can start to hear the subtle messages. And that's the thing that our body knows what it needs to support us in tough times. Our, our brain is always in the past or in the future. You know, it's racing there, but the body is in the present moment. So, finding that information there and giving them that to ourselves, you know, to support ourselves, to support ourselves.

36:39And then the third one is self-care. So, now we have S-I-S, self-care. Third, super duper important.

36:49To give ourselves the rest, the physical things that we need, you know, the building blocks that we all know what they are. But, you know, it's, it's, when I finally learned to sleep, my life quality improved so much and so did my resilience. So, this is a building block to really kind of put on a good place. And then the fourth one is you. That's for unity. And that's the thing, what I think of it is, to be a person who takes care of their nervous system, to, who self-regulates so that I can be a safe person to you.

37:25And when we all do this to each other, we can create that collective Sisu. Because Sisu doesn't only live in you or it doesn't only live in me, but it actually, in a weird way, is in that space in between us where that, those chemical messages, you know, and our brain is constantly asking, am I safe? And so, when I bring myself to any place that I signal that I'm a safe human, that's how we can together come from that place of unity.

37:57And that's where we really find that, that true strength in the Sisu. So, culture matters a lot, having a culture of Sisu. Yes, yes, it matters a lot. I mean, otherwise, because we all have to use Sisu, but why on earth are we constantly creating a planet where, you know, we are, we are forced to use our Sisu to simply survive? Like, how about we learn how to collaborate and be good to each other and kind so that we can use Sisu for those feats, you know, of like, how do we build a better system somewhere?

38:32Or how do we build better education systems or things like that, you know? But we have a long way to go, but, you know, we're taking, I believe, in the power of small steps repeated over time. So, I come from a place of hope. I believe in this. Yeah, you are very interested in how Sisu can save the world.

Sisu and Mental Health

38:59Well, let's talk about how Sisu can help people who have mental health struggles.

39:06What are your thoughts there? Yeah, I think what I've seen quite often is simply to, when I open, when someone opens the narrative about Sisu or I speak of it, it helps people to start to remember those moments when they have been strong. Even, you know, doing this little Sisu stories exercise of thinking past back in the life where they overcame something that was tough and putting them even just with bullet points.

39:38So, that we can start to remember that there is more strength to us than what meets the eye at a given moment. Because that is the first thing that survival mechanism, in a way, attacks. And our mind gets us on that downward spiral. So, we simply can't see ourselves as wholesome beings who also have strengths. Because the mind starts to, you know, focus only on those things that are wrong. So, opening the conversation so that we can even start to talk about that we have this innate fortitude.

40:14And every single person has it. I believe it's not a, Sisu is not a Finnish thing, by the way. Like, it's obviously a universal capacity. That's right. We have a name for it, but it's, you know.

40:29Yeah, I mean, I just, I feel like, like, athletes who are struggling with their mental health, the last thing they want to be told is to just persevere. So, my gut felt like this is, Sisu is incompatible. And you're saying it's the exact opposite. At least the flavor of Sisu that you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good thing to kind of pinpoint. So, that those moments of remembering when we were strong, they don't need to be accomplishments.

41:04They can be strong. And when I remember, for example, how I supported someone who was being bullied, for example. So, there was this element of, okay, that's where I stood up. Or even remembering what happened, what allowed me was that someone supported me. So, remembering and seeing kind of that interplay also of how this strength moves between us and how we can support each other. Yeah, your flavor of Sisu reminds me of, like, the Buddhist concept of equanimity in a lot of ways.

41:44And I'm a big fan of the Buddhist concept of equanimity because it includes love and warmth and presence. And, yeah, maybe it's extreme. We call it extreme equanimity. I really appreciate that you bring up the term equanimity instead of, for example, stoicism. Because stoicism, I get it. And there's that. But that also easily goes, again, on the kind of shadow side of Sisu.

42:16Where we rather kind of push away something and disconnect. And we're just, we push through that, through the pain without feeling anything. So, I would rather hope for myself and for us to develop that constructive side of Sisu. That more veers on the side of equanimity, if something. Yeah, yeah. No, I really like that. I really like that. So, we talked about how it can really help with mental health. What about the collapse of democracy?

42:49Can it help with that?

42:52Absolutely. Yes. It can. Because, well, here's the thing. So, as a cultural concept. So, it's interesting in that sense, too. That it's not just this word that denotes some kind of capacity in a human. But also as a cultural concept in Finland. It has long roots of indicating something that is about doing things really well. Even if nobody is watching. So, it has this invitation to uphold a good life.

43:28So, that we do things honestly, with transparency.

43:34So, it invites the person who cultivates Sisu to actually look at their own choices. So, that's also the reason why I see that there is a lot of potential with this concept in this time now. Because it's not just, you know, mental toughness. Be tough and overcome. Have resilience. But there's also an invitation to ask that. How am I living a good life?

44:00How is that built? If someone wants to take it that far. And, you know, I sure do. Oh, well, what's in the future for you, doctor?

44:15Yeah. Where are you at right now? Where's your head right now? Well, I have to say, my head and body and soul are in quite a good place now. I was just thinking. In alignment with each other. Yeah, they feel they're in alignment. And I think there's been some. I feel it too. In you. Oh, I was going to say that you feel it too. Because you look like, you look really calm and just integrated and good. I feel that about you.

44:45I love the mutual compliment club here. I like it. Me too. But it was quite a rough ride after the 40s immediately. But I feel that there was some kind of this, a bit of this Jungian integration that happened afterwards. That I was able to bring some of those parts together. So now I'm able to have this resilience and this toughness. But also with so much love, lovingness for myself. And my shoulders are relaxed.

45:19And I give myself the things I really want to do. So I nourish my enthusiasm with creative writing. I've had the permission from my ophthalmologist that I was able to go back to Aikido. Back to the dojo. Which is, I see Aikido as a realization of love. That's what we really do there. Is we learn how to, in an embodied way, find, like feel the energy as it moves. And where do I tense? Where do I soften? And then how do I bring that embodied feeling out from the dojo and into the world?

45:53How do I do that in a conversation with, let's say, my partner, you know, or with my mother or anyone, you know? And yeah. So I feel excited. It's a bit of a new page that's turning. And I don't exactly know everything that's going to happen. But I want to be, to be of service with what I've discovered from this road so far. So if for the first part I was building my CV, then it's kind of time, like, what's the testament, the legacy?

46:23You know, how am I, how can I, how can I be of help and where, you know? Will you still be conducting research? Or are you going to kind of put that down? Yeah, I think I'm actually ready to go back. I had to take a little break after the eight-year-long PhD was over. Yeah. But now my life force is back, so I'm ready.

46:49Wow, great. And are other researchers picking, taking on the mantle? Are they carrying on the baton, so to speak? Yes, there's quite super interesting stuff happening here in Helsinki. I got to advise the making of the Sisu scale that's around and validating it. And then there's Marta Velasquez, who is bringing Sisu quite beautifully to Spain. And he has this other concept called Razmia, which she's kind of exploring the connection of those two concepts.

47:24And I keep hearing here and there where people are applying it into mental health or therapy and this and that. So it's really exciting to see where Sisu's journey continues. You know, it's on its independent journey, as it always was, you know. Yeah. Well, wonderful. It's been a delight watching you grow over the years. You've come such a long way. I remember my first ever meeting with you and I feel like you're a different person.

47:59It's been a long road. And I always remember how you were the first one to invite me to speak, you know, and do this hour and a half long presentation on Sisu to your students at the... It's true. Yeah, you pen, so I... You rock that. I remember all the people who opened the doors in the beginning. You were awesome back then and you're still awesome. Stop it. You're more integrated. You're way more integrated and grounded. Your energy is much more grounded.

48:30It's wonderful. Wonderful to see the journey. I'm glad we got you on the Psychology Podcast. Thank you so much. And yeah, I wish you all the best in your continued journey. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God.

48:43Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God. Thanks, God.