Dealing with Feelings w/ Dr. Marc Brackett

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Teaching Emotional Skills

0:30I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, you know, who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. And what I realized was there was a missing link. And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or motivation. And so when you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy, which is more effortful to use.

1:02Unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to just say like, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, to seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. But complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort.

Introduction to Dr. Mark Brackett

1:40Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have Dr. Mark Brackett on the show. Dr. Brackett is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of multiple books, including his most recent book, Dealing with Feeling. Use your emotions to create the life you want. In this important conversation, we discuss why we have so much trouble dealing with our feelings, the importance of co-regulation, and why having grace for ourselves matters so much.

Importance of Emotion Regulation

2:10As Dr. Brackett says in his book, virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, joyous, discouraging, depressing, was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings. In this chat, Mark gives you some tips to sort that out. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Thank you. I was almost going to say, that's my name, don't wear it out, but I just...

2:43I don't know if this younger generation would know what that means.

Dr. Brackett's Personal Life

2:49I like it. How are you, man? You know, I'm good. I'm just a little overwhelmed. But other than that, you know, just kind of like... I've decided to listen to some advice, which is...

3:05In my chronic state of overwhelm, I just stay focused on what matters most to me and kind of like put my head down and do the work. And it helps.

3:15Yeah, it does help. Do you tend to get more overwhelmed cognitively or emotionally?

3:21I would say both.

3:24Yeah, because I just have a lot on my plate. And then I get worked up about it emotionally. And then I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? This is ridiculous. Yes. And you do do a lot of it to yourself. You know, like you chose to live this life and you chose to sign up for helping so many people.

3:49Yeah. I mean, there's a choice, right? You know, my theory is you got one life to live. I feel like I've been put on this earth for this purpose. And I'm going to do the best I can during this time. And then hopefully there'll be other people to take it over. I love it. Well, tell me, what is the purpose?

4:08Oh, you're really pushing now already. I think if I were to say what the real goal of my work is, it's to make sure that people have the skills they need to navigate their lives.

Emotion Regulation Skills

4:19I mean, that's very broad. I think that one of the most important skills, as you know from my new book, is emotion regulation. And if I had to pinpoint any of the kind of social and emotional skills that are the most valuable, I think if you can't deal with your own emotions and you can't help other people deal with theirs, life is going to be difficult. No matter how good looking you are, no matter how rich you are or what position you have.

4:51Yeah, I loved your new book. I thought it was your best one. Thank you. That's kind of I think this one's your magnum opus. Oh, I appreciate that. I guess we'll see. But if you if there's another one, the next one could be even better. But no, this one was really great and helped me a lot as well with my own emotional regulation. My printer just started and I have no idea what it's going to be printing right now. That's weird. It's just like random printers just randomly printing things. OK, OK, we'll see what comes out.

Book Promotion

5:21But anyway, what is emotion regulation? You know, there's a lot of debate in the field about how that term should be defined. Yeah, I think this I have a formula that I created to help me and others kind of think about it, which is not the definition. But I'll just share that with you first, which is that emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. So you have goals for emotion regulation. I want to feel less angry. I want to feel more contentment and that it's a function of the emotion you're feeling.

5:57So what I what goals and strategies I use will depend upon if I'm angry, if I'm sad, if I'm happy or if I'm frustrated. So it's the emotion, the person that I am. So, you know, I tend to be on the neurotic side. I tend to be introverted. I have I'm Jewish in terms of background. So my culture and comes all into play. And then the context, you know, right here on this webinar or this podcast with you versus giving a presentation versus being in a shopping mall.

6:33And so, yeah, yeah. Sounds like flexibility is name the game there. It is. And so my real definition of it, let's see if I can get this right, you know, being pressed, is that emotion regulation is the thoughts and actions that we use to prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain, or enhance emotions.

7:05It's for a purpose, to have well-being, to make good decisions, to have and maintain healthy relationships and achieve goals.

7:18Well, I like it. And a lot of this you talk about is in the service of realizing your best self or your best selves. And I see that as a common theme. I thought that was cool. That was a nice little connection to my own work on self-actualization. I thought a lot about that. And one of my visions for this is that when we have an identity as someone who is skilled at dealing with emotion, that it just changes the way we operate in the world.

7:56And if I can have this mindset, like Mark, you're like the feelings master, which is what one of my students called me from one of my courses. And I don't like that term so much, but I said, well, what about if the best versions of ourselves were people who are highly skilled at emotion regulation? What would be different in the world around us? And I think a lot would be different. I think if people had that mindset, government policies would be different.

8:28Leadership would be different. Parenting would be different. Friendships would be different, et cetera. Oh, wow. I mean, yeah, very far-reaching implications. Emotions, it does seem like we're living in a society right now where no one's regulating their emotions when they talk to each other in particular. Emotion regulation is not just something that you do solitary, right? No, and I think that's a big piece of what I discovered in my work, which is that we tend to be so self-focused in America, especially.

9:01Like, self-control, you know, and yes, if I'm trying to lose weight, I need to have self-control not to eat the donut. Of course, that's part of it. But honestly, you know, we're in relationships most of our lives, whether it's a relationship with ourselves or our partners or our parents or our colleagues or, you know, whatever. And, you know, if you really think about it, emotions, for the most part, are co-regulated.

9:33And so, you know, I always, you know, when I give speeches, like you do give speeches a lot, I often, you know, use my own work, of course. And I'm like, how are you feeling? And people are all over the place in terms of how they're feeling. And I say, well, what's your strategy for getting the most out of the day? And, of course, you get the basics. I'm going to breathe, right? I'm going to drink water. I'm going to drink coffee. I'm going to get up and stand up. I'm going to move around the room. And I said, all that's fine. But is there anything missing from, you know, your list of strategies?

10:06And then, of course, people, I'll doodle. I'm going to crochet. You know, like people just come up with lots of things that they're going to do to maintain, you know, themselves. And then I push and push and push. And eventually someone will say, well, maybe I won't need to regulate if you're a good presenter.

10:23And I think there's a lot to that, that our jobs, you know, as people who get on stage and present stuff, is to create an emotional experience that keeps people engaged. Just like it's unfair to the kid in the classroom whose teacher says, focus, when the content is boring and the delivery is worse. Yeah. And taking responsibility as a teacher is a big one because it's very easy to blame the kids these days.

10:53Or parents, too. Yeah, that's true. That's very true. Yeah, you always put me into this Zen state with your presentations. Very calm. You calm me down. You strike me as someone very calm. What is your inner life like, Mark? Does it match that word perception?

11:18It's like 50-50 for me. I'm, you know, I'm either, I'm never really like Mr. Happy Dappy, just not in my genetics for whatever reason. You know, like I'm trying to have a little more like joy and excitement, but it's not like a natural tendency for me. I'm also not someone who is like a pessimist or who like feels depression or despair a lot. But I am someone who is wound up and I worry and I worry about why I worry.

11:55I even joke that I worry about why I worry about why I worry. So you're very neurotic. And I don't have that much to worry about. But like my grandfather, who is very neurotic, is in my ear saying like, you laugh now, you cry later.

12:09And so I've worked on that. But, you know, I tend to have a, you know, a high startle reflex.

12:19And so I'm aware of it. And, you know, I check in a lot and I have a lot of strata. I'm lucky that I am. I really do practice what I preach for the most part. You do. I really like your approach. A lot of people talk about self-compassion in the field, but you used a word that stopped me in my tracks when I got to it. You said grace. Show yourself grace. Quote, the ability to stop ourselves from reacting in ways we later regret. I've never really thought of that as having grace to ourselves, but totally in retrospect, it's like, wow.

12:53Yeah, that's really what that is. I really like that, Mark. How did you come up with that? I just thought about it. You know, in religious practices, we say grace and it has a meaning to it. And I think that we have to have forgiveness and grace. It's like, we are imperfect people. We're going to get triggered. We all want control. We want, you know, so many things and life doesn't go the way, you know. But it's funny because as I was thinking about like the work that I do in terms of regulation and at the highest level, right?

13:32What do we want? We want to control everything. Like I was thinking, I'm so controlling. I realized like I want to know how fast people walk with me. I want to control how people write articles with me. I want to control, you know, what TV show we watch or not watch. I mean, it's crazy. In the end, like secretly, I just want everything to go exactly where I want. I'm sure. I mean, I can't be alone in that. Huh. And. Okay. Yeah. Go on.

14:03Are you not that way? No, no, no. I was going to say that's not my perception of you. But, but, but yeah, I don't see you as a very controlling person. No, it's not that I'm, I don't express it to people as much, but in my brain, like I'm thinking to myself things like, I really want it to work out this way. I want this to happen this way. I want that. Like I can map out everything. Not everything happens the way we want it to happen. Most things don't. And so, you know, if I could control policies that are being put in place right now that are affecting children's healthy development, I would do it.

14:46And I'm trying to do that, but I don't have that much power. And so I try to find the people I can talk to about it with. I try to do my piece in the world to help people. And I feel like the relationship piece comes in second. So it's like control the world, not necessarily really going to happen. Build healthy relationships to have that camaraderie, to have that ability to connect with people. I can do something about that. And when that's not around, like last week I was in London doing something and, you know, everything could have, you know, everything went wrong with my flights.

15:23And I'm like, I can't call my mother. She's not alive anymore. You know, I was going to call my partner. It was, you know, the timing of the day wasn't right. And I'm just like, Mark, this is it. Like, this is your life right now.

15:37And you know what? You have to edit a whole manuscript. You have all the time in the world to do that right now. And so it's like shift thinking, do something productive. Shift thinking, do something productive. And so it's like change the world, build relationships, or like take control of it in your mind.

15:56Yeah. Well, you could have called me, buddy. At your four o'clock in the morning, I'm not sure you would have wanted that. Okay. Fair enough. No.

16:08I mean, you got all the skills within you. And I think that a big part of your message is that we all do. You know, you don't have to be the emotion master to learn these skills. Is that right? Well, none of us is. And born that way. You know, I always joke, Lady Gaga got it wrong. We weren't born that way.

16:31Everything is learned.

16:33And I'm going to say that with like, with strength. None of us is born with a toolbox to regulate our emotions.

16:45And so unfortunately for, I think, many of us, we had not good role models. You know, I didn't have good role models. My father had terrible anger and was very dysregulated. And when I saw his, you know, piercing eyes and his pressed lips and the red in his face, it was like hell is going to happen now. And my mother was always terrified and anxious and locking herself in her room and having a breakdown, as they called it back in the 80s.

17:16And so like, what did I learn? I learned to be very reactive with my anger and to be neurotic and shut down with my anxiety. And then, you know, when I was like 18, I started studying martial arts. 15, I started studying martial arts. And I went to this like meditation kind of class. And I was like, oh my God, there's another way. There are people who can still their mind. There are people who don't react in this way.

17:46And then, you know, I had my uncle who was my mentor. And then I, you know, studied psychology. And then I was like, oh my God, there are like real things that you can do in your mind and with other people that can help you manage life's ups and downs.

18:05Okay. So does this relate to the idea of co-regulation? A co-regulation is a big process. And I think that's where it starts. It starts with the two. So what is it? So co-regulation, and at the simplest level, co-regulation is the back and forth between two people, usually a mom and a baby or a dad and a baby when they're, you know, at birth, where the baby's crying and the mom comes in or the dad comes in to soothe the baby, whether it's little lullabies or a little, you know, air, shaking, rocking, you know, cuddling.

18:40And the goal is to kind of balance each other's nervous systems.

18:45Now, it looks different as adults.

18:49You know, if I'm talking with you and you're like, Mark, and I'm having a rough day, if I say, you know, Scott, get over it, move on, like, what are you so worried about? Not the most, not the kindest form of co-regulation, right? Or interpersonal regulation. But if I say, hey, you know, let's talk about it. You know, you feel like going for a walk, you want to go for a cup of coffee, you know, no judgment here, just like, let it go, you know, whatever you want to say. And then if I wouldn't say, I may have a feeling about it, I'd be like, oh my gosh,

19:22really, that's what he's worrying about? But judgment doesn't really help, right? And so it's sort of like just being curious and supportive. And I think this is why the co-regulation has to come from someone who's skilled at self-regulation because, A, if I have the strategies, like I know about the breathing exercises, I know the cognitive strategies, I know the social support strategies. And I know you as a person, you know, you're also neurotic, like I am or not, or introverted, or extroverted, or whatever it is.

19:55I can then kind of like think to myself, let me make this offering and see if Scott feels like trying that strategy. You know, if I know you're a nature person, I'm going to be like, get out of your apartment and go for a walk. Let's go. Come on, let's go to the park. You know, if I know that you are someone who likes Zen and meditation, I'm going to be like, let's, you know, let's go do some breathing exercises together. If I know you're someone who likes to chat, it's like, let's go for a coffee and talk about

20:27things that we're passionate about.

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Co-regulation Discussion

21:48Wow, co-regulation. Yeah, that's a really important skill. And it does highlight the fact that self-regulation just doesn't operate in our own head. There's something that emerges. There's like a regulation that emerges. And I think what happens is that a lot of people are afraid of it because they think they have to be the knower. I don't have to know exactly what you need. I have to have a breadth of strategies because then I could pull from them to offer them. But I think the ultimate form is the relationship that we have and how I connect with you and

22:24just, sometimes, by the way, the mere presence of someone is a deactivator. A deactivator. Yeah. I mean, my Uncle Marvin was that for me. When I'm in his presence, when I was in his presence, everything seemed to be okay. It was amazing to me.

22:48Whereas there are other people in my life that when I'm in their presence, I feel completely on edge, uncomfortable. And yeah. Hopefully that's not me. No, you're not one of those. You know, I know what you mean. Some people feel like I've entered a black hole. There's like nothing I'm getting. There's no aliveness of the, there's no mutuality. Can you resonate with that at all?

23:20Yeah, there's something about it. And so, you know, in my research, I talk about feelings mentors. And there are characteristics of these mentors. They're nonjudgmental. They're good listeners. And they show empathy and compassion.

23:39And a lot of people approach people with a lot of judgment, with no compassion and terrible listening skills. And those are the people we tend to, like when I'm around those people, I just don't feel like, I don't want to, I can't be my true self. That's, yeah, there it is. You're not seen. Yeah.

24:03And what I find in my research, this is now cross-cultural, by the way, about 30,000 people in my research study at this point, is that only a third of people feel like they had someone like that in their lives when they were growing up.

24:20Two thirds of people feel like that person was absent from their development. Wow. That's really sad.

24:28Wow. Is that why we're all kind of fucked up?

24:33In part, I'm not going to, I won't use that term, but it's in part, you're right. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. Yeah. Which is a way to operationally define it. Yeah.

24:48What's his name? Nathaniel Brandon, who wrote a lot about self-esteem. He talked a lot about how a lack of psychological visibility, that's a phrase he used in childhood, really helps, really contributes to the development of low self-esteem as adults. He linked those things very much so. There's something there. That's true. I like that term a lot. Yeah, me too. And low self-esteem really is an uncertain self-esteem. You're not sure, who are you, really?

25:22What's my worth? What's my purpose and value in this world? Related to that, Scott, I found in my research that people who have these mentors growing up have about 20% higher purpose and meaning in life as adults.

25:38Really? Yeah. You found that data. Yeah, you found that in your own data. Yeah. And it's been replicated. This is like 70 different samples that I've used. Damn. Stop showing off. Not doing that. No, that's amazing. 90% of those samples, it's replicated. Wow. I mean, that's a really big effect. That's a big effect size. It is. I imagine, given the sample numbers. Holy cow. Okay, so there's really something really important there and profound.

26:12I thought maybe we can go through some of the skills that people could use.

Four-Step Solution

26:17You have a four-step solution.

26:22Sense, stop, strategize, succeed. Mm-hmm. This is your meta-moment method. Can you talk a little bit about that method? Yeah, so years ago, I have a colleague. Her name is Robin Stern. She's also a psychologist, and she's an expert at gaslighting. She wrote a book called Gaslight Effect. But she doesn't do gaslighting herself. No, she's not a gaslighter. She just helps people who have been gaslit. Gotcha.

26:51And she's a clinical psychologist. I'm a research psychologist with some clinical training, but I really focus on research. And she would see patients for years and teach them strategies, and they wouldn't use them. Or they'd say, that's amazing. They'd try it once, it would fail, and then they wouldn't do it again. So I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye-rolling from teachers, or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face.

27:22And what I realized was there was a missing link. And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or motivation. And so when you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, go blank yourself, right?

27:52It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, to seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just walk the other way. Avoidance is easier, ignoring is easier, denial is easier, drinking is easier, yelling, screaming is easy. But complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. And so you have to realize like, oh, I'm going to benefit from this. And so what we decided to do was play around, and we've played around with this for years, was a model to help people see the value of emotion regulation.

28:34And so the first step is you've got to know you're having a feeling, right? You've got to be aware that something, there's a sensation in your body, in your mind, that someone has said something or whatever happened in the world that is activating you in some way or form or another. And we all have triggers, you know, I mean, every one of us does, you know, for example, one of my big things, because of where I work, and actually you were there, so you know this too. I was. We met when you were my teaching fellow. That's true. Look at that.

29:06It's pretty cool. You've grown up. The, is entitlement. You know, I, and so like, I come from very humble, blue-collar roots. My father was an air conditioning repairman. My mom had various jobs as a secretary, different things. And here I am at this university where, you know, I get students who are like, Professor Brackett, I've got a question, but, you know, I'm not really sure you're going to know the answer. And, you know, my internal self and my brain is like, I mean, I may not know the answer, but I'm going to grade your paper.

29:39You know, my point is, it's like activating for me. And I want to say something like, who, you know, who raised you? You know, I want to really go back at these kids. And of course, I'm the professor of emotional intelligence. So, I stop, I take my breath, and I think, Mark, how would the best version of yourself respond to this? How would the feelings master, how would, you know, the director of the Center for Freaking Emotional Intelligence use this information wisely? What would Mark Brackett do?

30:12Yeah. WWMBD. And it's amazing, though, when you can lower the temperature and shift your mindset to this kind of superhero self or director self or whatever that self is for you, you come up with a lot better ideas. And so, usually, like, when I have that entitlement issue, I just say things like, I'm really curious, what made you ask the question that way? And then, all of a sudden, like, oh, you know, I'm not being retaliatory, but I'm being curious, and I'm being firm.

30:50Hmm, okay. And I find it works well for my own family life, because I'm in a good marriage, and I have a husband. We've been together for 30 years. But he's an artist, I'm an academic, and we don't have a lot in common. And so, I'm still, like, director, producer, like, you know, I like things in order, I'm very, I have a calendar that's perfectly organized, and I live an artist who doesn't operate that way. And so, I'm practicing this a lot, because, you know, it's like, I have an expectation that this person has the same brain as I do, and it's not that way.

31:33And, again, going back to control, like, if it were the way I'd like it to be, you'd do this when I say you'd do it, and we'd have this accomplished, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it doesn't always work out that way. So, I used to just, like, lose it. And then, I decided, like, first, Mark, you have no control over this guy's brain. This is the way he operates. And you wouldn't be attracted to someone who is like you anyway, because you can't even stand yourself.

32:00That's hilarious. And so, there's a lot of benefits to having this creative partner. I need that. And so, before you enter the door today, before you come home and enter into the chaos or not, how are you going to show up? And I activate Mark, the feelings master, mentor, before I walk in the house. And then, no matter what expectation was it met or whatever happens, I'm able to manage it.

32:32And not always. I'm not perfect. But my point is here that it's a step. Like, what we're talking about here is that you notice what's going on. You can be preventative, too, and proactive about it. You take that breath to deactivate your system. You see your best self. And then you can strategize and act in a way that aligns with your values to achieve a great outcome. So, I really, really like that. And my question is, can your strategy, can you decide the best strategy for you is to not be so calm?

33:12I find that whenever people talk about their best self, it just always goes back to, like, kindness and all the fucking boring shit.

Honesty and Kindness

33:22Yeah. No, I'm joking. No, I agree with you. No, no. It's like you never hear someone say, like, I just want to play devil's advocate for a second. That's okay. And this might not be my best self coming out right now. And I may. I can hear what you're saying now. I love that, Mark. But there's a part of me that really values and thinks that part of my best self is honesty. Yeah. And there's so much bullshit in this world. And I don't think every single thing has to be kindness every freaking second.

33:52I don't agree with that, by the way. And I want to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I want to hear your thoughts on that. So sometimes truth. So you would say you can always integrate truth and kindness. You would say something like that, probably. Yes. You would say you never have to sacrifice kindness in the service of truth. Is that what you would say? I agree. I do believe that. Okay. I don't think you have to. Maybe it depends how you define the word kindness. Well, I don't think you have to pummel someone to get your message across.

34:25And so. Sure. And I think that, you know, if you are someone, for example, in our society right now, at present, if you are of minority status, life is tougher for you. And I don't think that telling someone who is a victim of racism to, like, be calm is the right thing. I think that's an injustice right there. I think we have to support people in being assertive and really being clear, like, what you said is not cool.

35:04And I think sometimes our best selves, you know, stands up for ourselves and stands up for other people. When I witness an injustice, I try my best to not be like, everything's okay. No. Like, let's, it's not okay. Like, what you said is not cool. Now, I don't have to punch you in the face and tell you to go blank yourself. But I do have to say it with a lot of clarity. You know, listen.

35:29That's not cool. That's not working right now. And what you just said really was inappropriate and unhelpful. And I need you to stop.

35:39Really? You're talking about my point? No. I've been trying to act for a minute. Did it work? It looked like it worked. That was good. It was good. No, I do hear what you're saying. And I think I'm making a little bit of a different point, you know, because not everything is about injustice and justice. That's just one example. And that's a good example, for sure. I've been practicing the art of yes end lately, the improv thing. Sure. Because I'm working on a project right now, Second City Improv. And we're trying to, like, create world peace through yes ending. So, definitely.

36:10So, yes, that was a really good example. But, you know, sometimes people say things that aren't true. And if you point out what the truth is, it hurts their feelings. And so, you know, what do you do about that, you know, situation? Well, that's a big box that you just opened. And so... It's worth talking about, I think. It is. And I think that's the ultimate form of masterful co-regulation.

36:43Oh, that's cool. And so... I think what's interesting, you know, is in friendships and relationships. So, you know, I have different friends for different purposes. You know, like... And, you know, when I... One of the things that I find difficult, just to be... Since we're talking frankly here, you know, is that I've been blessed in my career. I feel very lucky to have, like, the ability to write a book and write two books and, you

37:14know, run around talking about it and lead a center at the university.

37:20But not everybody's happy for me, you know. And I know a lot of people socially that, you know, in the society that, like, right now would like to, like, take me down. Really? Really? Oh, for sure. There is either there's, like, and people I'm sure have experienced this, people who envy you or people who just think, like, what you do is, like, not the right thing. I'm brainwashing people. You're such a force for good, Mark. I'm sorry, you know, but some people think I'm a social engineer.

37:51That recurred to me. Yeah. But my point about that is, especially in close relationships, like, if you can't have an honest conversation, I mean, I think just my brain is going to terms of, like, romantic relationships now. Like, some people's coupleships, like, fall apart because the sex is not as good as it used to be, you know, the, you can't share, you know, the news that you feel, you know,

38:23you want to share about maybe you're, whatever, something positive happened, but you feel like if you talk about that too much, your partner's going to feel bad about themselves because they haven't achieved their thing. And I think if we can't find ways to have open communication with people around the feelings that we're having, like, if I have a close, like, a really good friend who, you know, I had a really close friend. When my father died, she called my assistant and she said, I need you to go into Mark's

38:56office and tell him I love him. Now, I thought that was weird. I'm like, this is a friend of mine for, like, 30 years. You're calling my assistant to tell her to tell me that you love me? Like, and so because of my relationship with the person, because I was comfortable, you know, in terms of how I could communicate it, I just picked up the phone and I said, hey, blank, blank, you know, like, you got to be kidding me, you know? Like, and she's like, I just didn't want to bother you. I figured that you were in the height of the moment with your father just passing.

39:28I don't want to, I just want you to know that I cared. And I said, you know me better than that. Like, come on, we are close enough that you could just say, like, put Mark on the phone. Yeah. And she's like, you know, you're right. And she was like, it was my own insecurity. I just didn't know what to say to you at that moment. I felt safer and more comfortable. And I said, understandable. But I think the point of this, what I'm sharing with you, is that the co-regulation piece is not about you. In the scenario where my father has died and I'm feeling lost, it's about getting out of

40:03your own comfort zone to understand and figure out what are the needs of the other person and how can I be most supportive to them? Not necessarily what's most comfortable for you in that moment. I think that it's really valuable to think that through before you open your mouth about something. Is it going to be worth it? Yeah. You know, if I, and I know, I think that was, that was really sensible. So, um, you know, you talk a lot about being in alignment with your best self and that was

Mindfulness and Self-Regulation

40:36my favorite chapter, uh, was the best self chapter. Was my response true to my best self? Did it help me achieve my relationship goals or do I need more practice with a strategy? Perhaps I need to replace the strategy with a more helpful one. Um, and, uh, man, like if you're constantly, if you're constantly getting in touch with that, I can see really good things happening in your life. I think there's a certain level of, uh, mindfulness required to do that. So you don't get caught in kind of this automatic mode, right?

41:08There is. And I think this is why, you know, just, I mean, what happened in terms of this book was that the pandemic hit, as we all know, and I thought, Mark, like, really like give the feelings mentor, you know, you're going to be great at this. And I did terrible for the first few months. I got really overwhelmed. I got scared, which was justifiable, right? It was a weird moment. My relationship suffered. I started eating really unhealthy. I stopped exercising. I was kind of like, ah, and then people were like, I had guys calling me saying like, I

41:43can't, I can't believe I have to work from home on my, on my kids. Tech coordinator. I'm like, now I'm like with my wife all day long. I'm, you know, I'm not used to that. I'm with my partner. I'm with, you know, like people has just became, people really lost it. And then I started doing all this research on like, well, what would you have hoped to have known how to do? And, and that's kind of where this book came from. And what I realized in terms of the emotion regulation is that, you know, we tend to think

42:14of it as like one thing, you take a deep breath, but like, you know, I could take a deep breath and then have even more clarity why I hate you. Right.

42:25And so like, it's a necessary, but insufficient strategy. Right. And so I think we get caught up in like, everybody takes a deep breath and yes, breathing helps, but it's not, it's not the be all end all. And then there's cognitive strategies, but sometimes I can, I try, Mark, take the high road, Mark, take the high road. And I don't take the high road. Then there's relationship strategies. There's, you know, being with people that lift you up, helping, you know, having a sounding

42:56board, like, can you just give me some thoughts or ideas about this? But then there's a whole bunch of other stuff. Like, you know, I call it your emotion regulation budget, which is, you know, your sleep, your nutrition, and your physical activity, because that's more preventative. I know that, I know that when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm more irritable in the morning. When I do physical activity, my, all my neurochemicals are different and I'm a kinder, easier person.

43:28You know, it just is what it is.

43:31And so my point of telling you all this is that, and obviously you have to kind of get into the depths of how to do all these things, which you can learn about, but like, they're all needed.

43:45And sometimes you use all of them to deal with one emotion, right? So at the airport, when the flight attendant, you know, the person on the intercom says, like, we thought we were going to take off tonight, but we're not. Sorry, everybody. And you want to go, like, become a lunatic. First, you take a deep breath. First, then you make the phone call. I'm going to miss the talk that I'm supposed to give tomorrow. And you, then you're like, I can't believe this. This is my reputation at stake. And then you call someone else to say, like, what do you think I should do?

44:15Should I try to do it virtually? Do I just, whatever. And then you need to make a plan. Like, where am I staying tonight? And then on your way to the hotel room, you start yelling at yourself and you say, Mark, like, this is your life right now. Look, you're going to go watch, you can get to watch TV tonight. You know, and it's like a whole bunch of stuff you've done to deal with the frustration or the anger. Does that make sense? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. It totally makes sense. I mean, your book has so many great strategies for dealing with that kind of stuff.

44:48And not only that, but just being mindful of this gap you have between where you are now and your best self and where you want to be. You have these fill in the blanks, which I really like. I want to see myself as someone who is, I want other people to know me as someone who is, what is your role? A lot of that speaks to the value of identity. And I know that was your point when you were talking about the master, the emotion master, even though you hated it. It was still something nice you said about having that as part of your identity.

45:19And I really, you know, I want that to be part of my identity too, as like someone who can emotionally regulate, you know, and can almost, I want to say, handle any situation. My worst fear happened a couple months ago before I moved back to New York. Every single day in my building in Santa Monica, my, I would fear getting stuck in the elevator. It's a really tiny elevator. And I would even like time, I have to stopwatch and I would time it going up and down

45:51until I know that it was fine. Everything was fine. You know, 10 seconds. I know I'll be out, you know. And the day before I moved back, I walk in the elevator, it closes and doesn't move. And I'm like, are you kidding me? I was like, are you kidding me? The day before, you know, this is like my worst fear. And yeah, I surprisingly was calm. Like, I mean, I didn't see that coming. But sometimes, sometimes you really don't know just how, how much you can handle something until you actually experience it.

46:22We're much more capable, I think, than most people think we are. Yeah. But you're bringing up a good point, which is that if you have, you know, if you're nervous about, for example, getting in the elevator because you think it might break down, or let's say you're in public speaking challenge or whatever it could be. You're nervous about if you're a teacher going into the meeting with the parent who's going to like berate you for their kid's bad grades, or a colleague who's got to go give another colleague feedback. There's a lot of, that we can do to be prepared for that.

47:01Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like kind of the if then work, you know, how am I going to feel when I'm in that meeting with my, you know, I remember years ago, I had to give someone very difficult feedback about the quality of their writing, you know, as a professor, right? This is what you, you know, you wrote, you remember writing all those papers, you had an advisor, right? That was probably particular, or, you know, or not. I have, I'm pretty particular, especially around like grammar. Like, it really drives me like you're getting a PhD and like

47:34just grammatical mistakes, you got to be kidding me. Um, so how do you show kindness there, Mark? Well, it's tough. I take my breaths. So you, so you see my point earlier. No, but I do. I don't say, I, you know, I could take the red pen and be like, this is a piece of crap. And this is the worst thing I've ever read. And you should go get a job, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like, like, I'm going to feel like crap afterwards. They're going to hate me. They're going to go get a job somewhere and tell everybody that I was a jerk. Like, I don't want that. And so how can I be like, show my disappointment and frustration in a way that motivates the person to want to work

48:10harder and be more careful. I think that's, that's why we're in this profession as psychologists to help people, not to make people feel worse about themselves. And I think you do need to give people a wake up call. And I have been there. Yeah. Yeah. But so how'd you do it? Don't leave us on the edge of our seat here. How did you phrase it? So what I would say, and I can tell you, you know, is that, you know, I read your paper and I have to say, I was just really disappointed. There were

48:42quite a lot of typos and a lot of grammatical mistakes. And I'm not sure if you were in a rush. I'm not sure if it's just something that you're not picking up on. If you're on drugs. Yeah. But it's possible. Who knows? But it's just not acceptable. Like, you have to realize that, you know, this is, you know, we're trying to publish these papers in top tier journals. And, you know, the expectation is that you, do you need someone to proofread before you hand it in to me to review? Whatever you need to do, it's going to be important for you moving forward to make sure that

49:16this is, um, written in a way that is, you know, with as few typos and grammatical errors as possible.

49:25And that's kind because you didn't, why is that kind? It's kind because you didn't throw them out. You still gave them a second chance. You still showed them that they have redemption qualities, you know? It's a great space. It's like kind of giving people, it's like, you know, instilling a growth mindset in their writing skills. Right. Right. Cause you, you're like, I know you can do better, you know? Or I'm hopeful you can do better. I don't know necessarily, but I have a feeling that something

49:56went wrong in this draft. For the love of God, I hope you do better. Exactly. For the love of your career. But Mark, what if they do it like five more times? I mean, does there a point where like enough's enough? Then there's, that's honesty too. Like you've gotten this feedback multiple times. Right. It's clear there's, you know, something missing. And, um, unfortunately, Your brain, half your brain. What's that? Half your brain might be missing. See, that's where you don't go. You just say.

50:26No, that, that wouldn't be kind. That wouldn't be kind. You know, writing may not be your strength area. Writing might not be your strength. This might not. And, uh, unfortunately that's like the bulk of what this is, what we're doing here. But, um, um, you say, I'm going to quote you. You say, you don't need to say what's on your mind. It's not going to have a positive effect. You want this person to be on your side. You don't want to alienate him or put him on the defensive. How do you want this moment to turn out? Your best self needs to step up and make that happen.

50:59This is a very common theme in your book. It's, um, not just about individual self-regulation, but so much of your book is about, um, well, in a, in a way it's regulating yourself in a way that helps regulate others, um, to have an optimal social outcome. It is. And I think people need scripts for that. And that's one of what I did in this book, which I haven't done before, which is, um, I would have a call, like a friend of mine's going

51:31through a divorce and it's like, I'm freaking out. And I think I want to go back to my husband because, you know, I'd rather be miserable, but with somebody than alone and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then instead of saying like, you got to be freaking kidding me. Like, you're going to go back to that. Like, do you remember what you talked to me about? Like three months ago and how much you hated this relationship? Instead, I would say things like, I'm curious what's going on right now for you that makes you want to do that.

52:02Or I would say things like, can you just remind me about why you decided not to stay with this person? And then we'll go on and on. And I'd be like, wow, like, that's a lot. You know, what are you thinking now? Oh my God, thank you for making me do that. Because why the hell would I want to go back to that? And so it's like helping the person discover for themselves as opposed to being the knower, the teller. Oh, I like that. That's like being a good coach. It is a coach. It's coaching. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it is. That's what coaching is. Yeah. But I

52:33think people need, like, people don't know, parents don't know how to do that a lot. Partners don't know how to do it. And I felt the need to really like, I would even ask permission for a few people. Do you mind if I record this? Because it's like hard to remember all the little nuances and the ways that you kind of like go back and forth with people. But, and the point is that it, you know, it's effortful, like I said, but the end result is that it builds trust, it builds a healthy relationship as opposed to

53:06alienate someone, you know, et cetera. For sure. It's in line with my own definition of healthy authenticity as, um, yeah. Um, say, you know, saying, saying things, acting in integrity in ways that, um, show growth of relationships and your whole self. Um, that's a rough, rough, rough, uh, summary of how I define healthy authenticity, but I, I definitely, yeah, it's definitely like, and your book is very much in line with, you know, my main recent book rise above and the ideas of, um, overcoming a victim

53:37mindset and, uh, empowering yourself. I agree. I think that part of it, you know, is a lot of, you know, when I interviewed you about your book and, you know, we talked about it is I was just actually in London giving a speech. And one of the first questions that someone came up to me about was, um, about trauma, you know, you know, adverse childhood experiences and, you know, what do you do in terms of that and regulation? And, you know, I said, the goal, right. In life is to grow, not to be stuck.

54:14And so if someone is constantly reminding themselves about their abuse or their trauma, but not seeking alternative ways to think about their lives and grow, like from my perspective, that is the most unhelpful thing. Um, and I think it's our obligation to help people grow out of those experiences as opposed to live in them their whole lives. Now, as you know, I was sexually abused as a kid for five years. I know what it's like to be traumatized and to have

54:46memories of horrific things happening to you, but I chose, you know, and it's taken me a lifetime, but I don't identify as a victim. I don't, I don't even identify as someone who had terrible experiences, um, who has learned from those experiences and who will do everything you can to not, you know, to help people develop the skills they need to never get themselves into that position or to have the courage to talk about it, et cetera. Um, and to me, that's really the only way

55:20to go. Beautiful. Um, well, I found your book so masterful and I'm glad you wrote a book for adults. So thank you for, you know, you could have written about children the rest of your life. Uh, and, uh, and then, uh, I'm like, how's this helping me? And, uh, you've helped so many adults with this book and you still do have a chapter on, uh, children, a couple chapters. Um, so let me end, um, with this

Conclusion and Book Review

55:50great quote from your book. You say, virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, joyous, discouraging, depressing was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings. Um, congratulations on a truly masterful book and how to deal with your feelings, a book that I will return again and again, and I will be teaching in my course in the fall. Um, I've, I've seen some things I want to put in some of my lectures. Um, so thank you so much, Mark, uh, professor, professor, doctor, Dr. Brackett. And,

56:20uh, yeah, I wish you all the best in the book tour. All right. Thanks Scott.