Can You Really Change Your Personality? w/ Olga Khazan

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0:30So narcissism would be associated with like low agreeableness. So people who are narcissists and yeah, that's like a good example is that they're like, oh, well, like I have to look out for me because like no one else is going to. And our society kind of encourages this to like we live in a kind of dog eat dog society. So you do kind of always think like, well, I need to take care of myself, even at the expense of other people.

1:00Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. Today we have journalist and author Olga Kazan on the show. Olga is a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of multiple books, including her latest one called Me But Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change. In this episode, we discuss Olga's journey to change aspects of her personality based on the latest scientific research on personality change. We also discuss why antagonistic personality traits are so hard to change,

1:30some of the benefits of improving your personality, and practical ways you can make real long-lasting changes to your personality over time. So without further ado, I bring you Olga Kazan. Olga, welcome back to the Psychology Podcast. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And congrats on your new book. Thanks. Me But Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change. I think when a lot of people think of personality, they do think of something that's set in stone. They're not aware of all the nuanced, nerdy, psychological debates between states and traits and all that.

2:05Can you just give our audience an idea of what is personality? Yeah, so personality is the way most researchers define it as the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you. Um, and though that sounds like it's something that wouldn't change over time, um, if you think about it, it's also the behaviors and the, um, feelings that allow us to reach our goals. Um, so if you have a goal of making more friends or a goal of getting more organized, um,

2:37you know, or a goal of, I don't know, traveling the world, um, those goals might require you to change some of those, quote-unquote, natural personality traits that you have. Um, so it's sort of, it's, it's what's within us, but it can also change over time. So you don't take an essentialist approach to personality? I don't. I, I really feel like, um, we have the capacity to change if we want to. Um, and I mean, that's something that I found in working on the book and then, um,

3:08what kind of some of the research, uh, shows as well. Um, so why did you decide to take on this year long experiment? Obviously thinking personality can change was a good start in your mindset. If you're going to go to a whole year trying to change. Yeah. Um, so I, uh, really was going through something when I started, um, I was just really unhappy. Um, so I've always had really high levels of anxiety, um, and it was getting to a point where it was really just like undermining my happiness levels.

3:39Like, um, nothing particularly bad would happen, but I just felt just really anxious all the time about everything. Um, and I also, I mean, COVID was sort of easing up around the time that I started working on this. Um, but my social circle had really frayed, uh, during COVID and actually even before COVID. Um, and, uh, I kind of was going really long periods of time without interacting with anyone. Like I was just kind of like by myself all the time. Um, and, uh, so I wanted to kind of expand my social circle and deepen my relationships.

4:14Um, I also wanted to bring my anxiety and honestly depression levels down. Um, and kind of the more I read and researched, the more I saw that personality traits were at the root of some of those experiences that I was having. Oh, wow. Um, well, thanks for being so honest about what you're going through then. Um, I kind of want to just skip to the, uh, the, the, the punchline. Did it, did it help going through this year process help? And then we'll fill in all the details. Yeah. So it did help.

4:45Um, uh, in particular, my extroversion levels went way up. I think I just realized that I was not as introverted as I thought I was. Um, and I kind of learned some strategies for reaching out to people that I hadn't been comfortable with before that. Um, uh, my extroversion went up a lot. Uh, my agreeableness went up a fair amount and, um, my neuroticism. Also went down a fair amount. Um, in particular, uh, I became a lot less depressed.

5:17Um, my anxiety did go down some, but, um, it was really in my depression levels that, that I, um, noticed a big decrease. That's really promising. And it suggests that therapy might alter personality traits, um, over the long run. So I think it's a very promising to hear. Um, there's, uh, some seminal research being conducted by Nathan Hudson and colleagues, um, and there's this paper from 2018 called, you have to follow through attaining behavioral change goals, predict volitional personality change.

5:49And there's a whole appendix of all these challenges that one can go through. Can you talk a little bit about, um, what challenges you did and, uh, you know, how did you set out to do this for a year? What did you consult to do? Yeah. So Nate was one of the people I consulted. Um, so a big part of my book is based on Nate's research. Um, and, uh, so sort of what I did is, um, I looked at his study that you have to follow through. Basically what he did is he, he found a bunch of, uh, I guess, undergrads and he was like,

6:21do you want to change your personality? And he, and they were like, yes. Uh, or, or among the ones that were like, yes. Um, he was like, okay, great. What personality trait do you want to change? And, you know, they would pick a personality trait that they wanted to work on and, uh, he would assign them like challenges, um, that had been pre-written. And so if they wanted to become more extroverted, he would kind of have them say hi to people or plan a lunch with someone, you know, what have you. Um, so I borrowed from those challenges, but then I also kind of added on my own, um, challenges

6:53that were, were challenging. Um, uh, so, uh, one of them was actually doing improv. Um, so, uh, I, uh, in addition to kind of just reaching out to people and like scheduling more lunches and more get togethers, I also signed up for an improv class, um, which is not something that I would normally do. I'm, um, actually, uh, not a natural performer and I don't like being on stage. Um, and, uh, I'm also not very silly, um, uh, except when I'm with my kid.

7:24And, uh, so this was like a big leap for me, but I kind of just wanted something where I would see the same group of people over and over again, where I had to be extroverted while I was doing it. I couldn't just like withdraw into myself and, um, where it was like a commitment device. Like I couldn't back out, um, you know, at the last minute. And so that's kind of where the improv idea came from. Yeah. I love that. I actually just got off a call with Kelly Leonard, um, from second city. I'm working on a project with second city and I, I just love improv so much.

7:54And we actually talked about you a bit. He loved having you on his podcast. He said, um, yeah. So kind of yes, ending life is a way of, um, like, okay, let me phrase it this way. Which personality traits do you think are most likely to change if you yes, end life? I think openness to experience is the first one that comes in my head, but. Um, yeah, yeah. So the, the improv kind of like, yes. And, uh, perspective, um, it definitely was.

8:25So for me, I, I did improv to increase extroversion. Um, but I actually think it, it like worked on a number of different levels. Agreeableness maybe. Yeah. Agreeableness too. Because like you really, um, and honestly maybe a little bit of like anxiety as well, because you really have to become okay with, um, letting go of control. Like you have to kind of release, uh, this feeling that like you have to be in charge of everything and you have to, um, dictate how everything goes. Cause like, you're just not going to be able to with improv.

8:56It's other people kind of running forward with their own ideas and you have to like pivot around them. Um, so I think it's great for neuroticism. I think it's good for agreeableness because you're just naturally kind of trying to get in tune with others. Um, and that's kind of what you have to do, uh, in order to be more agreeable in conversation is, is to like kind of really listen to what other people are saying. Um, and yeah, definitely openness as well. I mean, it just makes you kind of like up for more things. Cause once you've done improv, you really can do anything.

9:29It feels that way. Yeah. It feels like you can handle anything and turn it into something that maybe, uh, is more aligned with you, but doesn't negate the other person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay. So, um, the big five personality model, uh, I teach personality psychology. I'm teaching a personality lab course at Columbia this fall as well as personality psychology lecture. Um, so let's do a little lecture for our listeners. Sure. Yeah. There's an extroversion, introversion, right?

10:00Conscientiousness. Um, what's the other pole described as laziness? I think it's like disinhibition or something. Yeah. Um, oh, that's interesting that, okay. I need to process that, um, agreeableness, disagreeableness, or antagonism, um, uh, neuroticism. And emotional stability. Emotional stability. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And open to experience or, and then I guess closed mindedness. Yeah. Um, so there's the big five and then it's a hierarchy.

10:31So underneath the big five, there's two aspects of each big five. And under that there's facets under facets, you have an infinite number of, so there's, you know, we're not just talking about five, but, and then at the higher level, right. You, I'm sure you came across the big two stability and plasticity. Oh, you know, I had not seen a lot of, um, uh, discussion of stability versus plasticity, but I mean, definitely my, my book kind of addresses more of the plasticity side of that. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

11:02Although I know I, I, I yes to end that, but I kind of disagree with that. I think you also really do cover stability when you talk about reducing your depression levels. Um, that's a big, uh, emotional stability is a big part of the stability. Oh yeah. Yeah. So, so that too. Yeah. So I guess that was a yes. And yeah, you did stability and plasticity anyway. Anywho, um, I wanted to just, uh, let our listeners know what the map of the train is there. Um, and let's just go through each of the big five and just tell us about your journey.

11:33Do you mind? Do you mind if we do that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, go ahead. Let's play. Okay. So tell me what it was like to dance. Like everyone is watching. Yeah. So that was my subtitle for extroversion. Cause that is what extroverts like to do. Um, so starting out, I was very introverted. Um, I was, I scored extremely low on extroversion. Um, and the pushback that I normally get on this is that, um, uh, I'm an introvert. I don't want to change because I like being an introvert.

12:05And I read that Susan Cain book and, uh, now I don't feel like I ever have to leave my house. Um, and I look, I felt the same way. Like I was like, I'm an introvert. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert. That's just how I am. I will say that there are a lot of studies at this point show that when you, when introverts behave in an extroverted way for a few minutes, and normally that just means, um, socializing for a few minutes with other people, um, they tend to feel happier. So they, they get a little bit of a happiness boost from community, which makes sense.

12:37Like if you, if you think about like all that we know about what our needs are as humans, we have to feel seen, uh, by others and we have to feel like we're part of something. Um, so it's, uh, you know, it's like COVID was so painful for so many people. Um, and so, um, and that's kind of what I found is that I never felt like going, I hated going to improv, like almost the entire time. Uh, always wanted to back out, you know, never wanted to actually follow through on any of these commitments, but when I would go and, you know, socialize for an hour, hour and

13:10a half, uh, I always felt a little bit happier. Like I always felt like, um, you know, I got a little boost from social interaction that I didn't get from basically any other activity, reading, you know, watching, scrolling, social media, whatever else. Um, and, um, yeah, I think that's like really the takeaway lesson there is just that like, uh, even if you feel very introverted, it can, it can provide a big mood boost. And I don't know, I think a big like boost to your overall happiness. Um, if you just make an effort to connect with other people, it doesn't have to be with improv.

13:44Of course, of course. And, uh, let's be clear about what is introversion and what isn't an introversion. Um, a lot of people conflate social anxiety with introversion and those aren't the same thing. So by improving, by increasing your extroversion, we're talking about what exactly? Yeah, so, um, extroversion has a couple different, um, elements to it. Uh, one is like, um, just activity level. So honestly, just like, uh, doing more activity is a form of extroversion.

14:17So even if like you're going to a book club and you don't talk that much at the book club, that still counts as extroversion because extroverts just kind of like do more stuff. Uh, and so that's really a good guiding principle for introverts who are trying to get out there a little bit more. Um, they of course like feel like friendlier and more cheerful when they're out and about, like they're kind of, they're people, people, um, you know, but I would just start with the, um, kind of general, like getting out of your house element.

14:49Yeah. Interesting enough. And when you look at change goals, you, you don't see as many experts wanting to be more introverted. You know, usually you see it. That's true. You know, for some of these, you, there might be more of a trend for, uh, more people to want to be in one pole than the other for all the big five and, and for that one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but also I want to make clear there are happy introverts. Um, I've written about that. Um, and, uh, and a lot of that is acceptance of your traits, uh, seems to moderate your, I wrote an article for Scientific American on are there happy introverts, you know, and, uh, yeah,

15:22there are, they exist. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. But if you want to change, you can, if you want to, you know, have, um, uh, have a little more, uh, flexibility in your repertoire of social strategies, you know, there you go. Um, and so, uh, well, what's like one thing you do now that you, a year ago, you would not have thought you'd see yourself doing. Um, yeah, so a big thing that changed for me. Um, so I, I should say in the middle of writing this book, I had a baby, um, and I'm really

15:54glad I did this before I had a baby because, um, my whole approach to like new motherhood changed. Um, and what I did was I joined these like new moms groups. Like I've, I've been really not aggressive. That sounds weird, but like active about trying to reach out to other new moms and make connections with other new parents. Um, and in a way that I definitely would not have at like, before I started working on this, like I would have, I'm not really a joiner. I don't, um, I was like always the last kid pick for kickball or whatever.

16:27Like, I'm not really like someone who like joins clubs and groups. Um, but I just decided that this is going to be different and that I was going to be part of these groups. Um, and that really has made such a huge difference in my new motherhood, um, is just not being isolated and off on my own and having a support network.

16:47That's a great example. Yeah. I thought you were going to say something like dancing on tables and clubs or something, but I wish I would, I just don't get to do that that much. Cause I have a 16 month old understood. Yeah. Understood. And yeah, I like, I still liked your example. Um, but I, I was, I was expecting something really wild and racy. Um, but anyway, um, let's go to the next one. How about from overwhelm to, um, Is that an emotional stability yoga? Yeah. Um, so with emotional stability, this was an interesting one because, um, basically all

17:20of the recommendations for reducing neuroticism, which neuroticism, as you know, is like basically depression and anxiety to reduce those. The big recommendation is meditation. Um, and people who are highly anxious do not as a rule like meditation. Um, um, and I am among those people. I, I really have never liked meditation. I have a really hard time with it. Um, I would almost be doing like, like anything else in the time that I'm meditating.

17:51Um, and I did for this, I, I took a class called MBSR where you have to meditate for 45 minutes a day. Um, and you also, um, have to sit on in, on these lectures that are like basically like Buddhism for dummies. Like they just like walk you through Buddhist concepts and, um, most of them I had heard of already. And I was kind of like, this is so dumb. This is like a weird waste of time. Like I would like look, look at Twitter and stuff. Like, I was just like, this is silly. Um, but it worked.

18:22I, my neuroticism went down a lot after this class. Um, and I think it was maybe more due to these like Buddhism for dummies teachings than due to the meditation. Although I have no real way of knowing, because as some of you might know, like a big part of meditation is that you're not supposed to like try to like clear your mind. You're supposed to just like be okay with whatever comes up. Um, but I, I kind of think that the Buddhist teachings made more of an impression on me

18:55than the meditation did. Hmm.

18:59Yeah. I, I, I kind of resonate with that, especially with my, uh, ADHD. Yeah. I find it really, meditation would be really hard, but it can also be really helpful. But, um, do you, do you think you're, do you kind of see yourself as a Buddhist? I do sometimes describe myself as a Buddhist. I think my outlook on life is, has become more Buddhist over just like, um, so I, so I guess to make a concrete example, um, I used to have a lot of self blame when things

19:34would happen to me that were not good. Um, like when bad things happen to me, I would kind of blame myself a lot, even if there was no way it was my fault. Like I would, you know, just like an example, like I would, if I tried to throw an outdoor party and it rained that day, I would get like really mad at myself. Um, and, um, so something that like this class helped me understand is that like a lot of the bad things that happen in life, you can't control and that blaming yourself for misfortune is only kind of contributing to your own unhappiness.

20:06Like, uh, there's no, like, you don't get a bonus for blaming yourself when something bad happens. Um, it's only kind of a detriment. Um, and, um, and this is like known as like the double arrow concept. Um, but for me, for some reason, it was just really nice to hear someone say that, um, kind of outside my own head. Um, so I don't know. So that, that's been something that I've tried to kind of keep in mind. It comes up a lot with having a kid, uh, a lot of stuff goes wrong and you're like,

20:37well, that happened.

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21:45You can learn more about the course and register by going to centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. That's centerforhumanpotential.com slash S-A-C. Okay, now back to the show. So, I could see that mentality being a blend of neuroticism as well as agreeableness. I could see it falling. Yeah, so I actually scored, I scored really low on agreeableness actually. So, I don't know, but maybe, maybe to the extent that I am agreeable, I was like kind

22:18of, yeah, I would have a lot of self-belief. Yeah, so then the source of it is more neuroticism. Well, to me, that's also a self-esteem issue, which is tied to neuroticism, I mean, people who are, well, certainly neuroticism is positively correlated with lower self-esteem and more self-doubt is one of the facets of neuroticism and rumination. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Anything else you want to say about your neuroticism journey before we move on to another

22:51domain? Yeah, so for this one, for people who really just cannot stomach meditating, I would try to like introduce some kind of mindfulness practice into your life. It doesn't have to be just silent meditation. It can be like a yoga class or even just like walking in nature while like kind of not thinking about anything in particular has been shown to be like a form of mindfulness that's beneficial. Um, so I would just try to do something that feels mindfulnessy, even if it's not sitting

23:25down. Good, good. I can even, yeah, I can just be getting in the full state with the creative activity. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Some people do like knitting or, um, you know, something with their hands. Yeah, we're just reading a good book. Um, cool. Okay. So we move on to being down for whatever? Yes. Are you now? Is that where you're at right now? Am I down for whatever? You're totally open? So I was actually already really, so I had two big strengths coming into this, uh, according

23:55to my personality test. I was very high on openness and I was very conscientious. Okay. Um, so I did not really try to change my openness level that much. I interviewed other people who had increased their openness in various ways. Um, and I experimented with some of the like strategies that are often, um, suggested for people who want to increase on openness. Um, so these are pretty obvious. It's like, try a new, you know, form of exercise. I tried surfing, um, you know, go on a vacation to a, uh, like a new country.

24:26Um, so I went to Portugal. Um, uh, but the one that like, where, you know, the science is really kind of new and is like really trippy is, um, psychedelics. Um, so I interviewed some people who had a lot of, um, PTSD and, uh, from like, various events in their lives that had happened. Um, and we might think of that as like neuroticism. And I think there is a neurotic component there. Um, but for whatever reason, when they took MDMA, um, or another psychedelic, um, it, it

25:02somehow like increased their level of openness. Like that's what the study showed was happening. It like boosted their openness levels. And then the neuroticism kind of came down in tandem with the increase in openness. Um, and it's still like not totally clear why that's beneficial. Like, why is it good to be open to new things if you're trying to get rid of PTSD? Um, but the way one researcher explained it to me was sort of that it helps you kind of imagine a different way of thinking about the world, a different way of living.

25:34So instead of being afraid all the time, you know, what if the world is like mostly safe? What if people are mostly good? Um, and, uh, I think that might be what was happening for, for these folks that I interviewed. Um, but again, I didn't personally try psychedelics for this. Um, it was, um, kind of, I, I looked at like the resource that was out there and the people who participated in those studies. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, I have, and I can say it definitely boosts openness to experience, um, and, uh,

26:07love kind of sense of oneness for the world. Yeah. I think is affected as well. Yeah. People say they like, yeah, they feel like, um, yeah. Oneness with the world, love, uh, less like, yeah. Like, um, fear, less, um, less anxiety. Yeah. Um, yeah, good, good stuff. Um, okay. Uh, uh, even just, uh, I've done microdosing and that really, you know, there's a whole

26:37research literature on the benefits of microdosing now as well, which is great. What do you microdose? Yeah. Like, uh, 500 milligrams. Of what? Oh, psilocybin. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not a big, a big dose we're talking, you know, but, um, you know, even that can really kind of get you in a more creative frame of mind, uh, West, less judgmental self self judgment. So maybe a lot lowers neuroticism too. Yeah, exactly.

27:08Um, well, anything else you want to talk about within the openness domain? Um, no, um, I mean, obviously psychedelics are not like legal. They can be really hard to access in a lot of places. So, I mean, for people who kind of want to dip their toe in, um, I would maybe try just like a new, a totally new activity that's, um, really outside your comfort zone. So something like you wouldn't typically do, it could be like rock climbing or, um, solo travel or something like that. That's, um, kind of pushing yourself a little bit and is not, not something you would typically

27:40enjoy. Good. That's great advice. Great advice for those who want to keep it legal. Um, okay. Um, uh, although people are trying to change that right now. People are trying to lobby and to show the, there's a lot of scientific, uh, evidence coming out on the benefits. Um, okay. How about agreeableness playing well with others, but, but the opposite, I I'm interested in antagonism to the dark, the dark triad. Did you come across the dark triad in your research?

28:10I did. I had a whole section about the dark triad, but I, I cut it cause it was like things were spiraling. Yeah. Um, and that's narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. Did you come across my light triad? Um, I did not come across. What is the light triad? Continism, not using people as a means to an end, but treating people an end to themselves. Humanism, um, treating every individual with dignity and respect and faith in humanity, believing in the fundamental goodness of humans. It's a more recent research program that my colleagues and I have initiated just the past

28:43five, six years ago, five, six years. Oh, that's really cool. That sounds like a lot of research is coming out about it. Yeah. That sounds like a Unitarian Universalism. Those are like, cause my husband is, is that religion and, um, yeah, loving one another. That's right. That's right. That's right. Um, so agreeableness, disagreeableness. Here's one big one. Um, Nathan, big, big question I have for you. Nathan Hudson has found that, um, it's really hard to change antagonism. That whole domain, agreeableness, antagonism, it's hard to like change.

29:16And it's not like there's a lot of agreeable people who want to be more antagonistic. Um, but the other end is true too. There's not an awful lot of antagonistic people who want to be more agreeable. So what do you make of this, Olga? Yeah. So agreeableness is one of the ones that's hardest to change. Um, uh, not a lot of people want to change it. And if they try, it's like very difficult. I also found it very difficult. I scored low on agreeableness and it like went up slightly, but it was like, I did so

29:47much and it was like very hard. Yeah. Um, so a lot of the tasks for agreeableness is like thinking about the people who piss you off in a more positive way or like thinking about like mean stuff that people have said to you and like what might've been going on in their lives that would have prompted them to do that. Um, like some people get sweaty, even like thinking about that. Like it's, it's a very difficult thing to like think positively about people you truly dislike. Um, and I kind of noticed this.

30:18Uh, so one of the things that I did for agreeableness is I took an anger management class and, um, there was a guy in the class who like, God bless him for being honest, but he was just like, like they were like, now imagine like, um, like they were like building a bridge for like all of your enemies to like come over and like join you or something. And he was like, I want to build a bridge and invite all my enemies on it and light the bridge on fire. Like, I was like, you know, like, I feel like that's like a much more natural response

30:51than like whatever they're asking us to do. But it's like, it was funny because like every single thing they asked us to like imagine or like picture, he was like, no way. Like I hate that person. And, um, I like, that is kind of what you're asking. It's like, it's like very, very hard to, um, think more positively about people you don't like. It's so true. Are agreeable people, people are very high in agreeableness. They more likely to invite all those people on their, uh, boat. Yeah. So like the, basically the, the goal of the anger management class is like a lot of the

31:25agreeableness boosting tasks and the people who, you know, who are very agreeable, like these are, you know, people are like just drawn to them. Like they have a ton of friends. Uh, they have like the BFFs from the time they were five. They are like really close with their families. They like make friends wherever they go. Everyone likes them. They're described as like a total sweetheart. Uh, like, you know, like usually it's more common among women for them to be high in agreeableness than men.

31:55Um, uh, and I just never have had that description applied to me. Like I, um, yeah, I, I just feel like people don't describe me that way. And it has always kind of bothered me like, like me better. Um, and, uh, so that's kind of what I set out to do, but it is, it is really challenging. Um, and it can, um, you know, and you have to find the balance between being a people pleaser and just being really nice. If you're going to try to boost agreeableness, cause where people like the reason they don't

32:26want to increase it is because they think that it's going to make them into a pushover. So, yeah, that's true. That's very true. Um, they don't see it as a weakness. They see that it is a strength. Exactly. Yeah. Same thing with narcissism. Do you talk about narcissism in your book? Um, I don't, I don't get into it, but yeah. So narcissism would be associated with like low agreeableness. Um, so people who are narcissists and yeah, that's like a good example is that they're like, Oh, well, like I have to look out for me cause like no one else is going to, and our

32:59society kind of encourages this too. Like we live in a kind of dog eat dog society. So you do kind of always think like, well, I need to take care of myself even at the expense of other people. Yeah. There's, um, our research finds there's two different types of, uh, uh, narcissists. Uh, well, there's more than two, but two main ones are there's the extroverted narcissist and there's the neurotic narcissist. Um, the neurotic narcissist tends to, it's called vulnerable narcissism. Um, they tend to feel entitlement due to their fragility, not superiority.

33:32Um, whereas grandiose narcissists tend to be very extroverted and just feel superior to everyone. Do you want to move on? Are you, anything else you want to say about? Yeah. So for agreeableness, I would say the most. Yeah. Did you change? I'm trying to get. I did. I did increase in agreeableness. Um, and I would say the most, uh, effective way to do it was, um, I went to this conversation workshop and learned strategies for having more meaningful conversations and it's a, it's

34:02expensive and not everyone wants to go to London and like do this weird thing that I did, but using some of the strategies from that workshop in that section of the book, I think will help, helps boost agreeableness and helps boost your ability to connect with other people, um, without like, uh, you know, becoming like a pushover or whatever people are afraid of.

34:26Cool. So what, what, what percentage would you say you're at right now? 60% you're, you're above average agreeableness now, but not extreme. Um, I would say I'm above average, but it's cause I have a kid and I have to always be patient and kind to him, even when he's headbutting me in the face and pulling my hair. It's really true. That's really true. Yes. Okay. Fair enough. Um, let's, let's move on to the go-getters. How about that? Yeah. Conscientiousness. The gritty ones. They're gritty. Angela Duckworth loves conscientiousness.

34:58Um, she does. Yeah. Um, she's great. I actually talked with her for the book. Um, yeah. So conscientiousness was another one that I was high on. And so it's mostly interviews with other people who increased in conscientiousness and with, um, people like Angela who study how to increase conscientiousness. Um, and, uh, this is another one where people who are low in it don't know how to get higher. Like, they're just like, I don't get how you do this. Like what, what's the secret sauce?

35:29Um, and so it could look like forgetting where you left things, forgetting appointments, being late all the time, being just like disorganized. Um, and, uh, I, I get it cause I used to be like that, but I somehow just like got my shit together in my like late twenties. Um, and, um, yeah. And so I try to kind of walk people through how I did that and how other people have done that. Help. Come on. Okay. So a big thing that I noticed is that people rarely become more conscientious if it's just

36:05like, because they want to like, it's, it's rarely like a goal unto itself. It's usually helping them achieve something else. So the people that I interviewed that really became more conscientious, like they went from like never studying protests to like acing everything or, um, forgetting, like basically not doing anything all day to like having a million calendars and like getting a ton of tasks done. Um, it's when they were doing something that was truly important to them. So, um, one woman really wanted to start a business and, um, it was like, she was going

36:39to be like a freelance copywriter and she just had to keep track of all of her clients and all of her, you know, deliverables and things. Um, and so she like had this giant whiteboard that she would write everything on and came up with this like calendar system and time boxing and all this stuff. But when she wasn't passionate about what she was doing, like before that she worked in a hair salon, which she wasn't really that interested in, she never did that stuff. Like it wasn't part of her personality. It's just these skills that she learned because she wanted to achieve this goal.

37:11Um, and the same with, uh, Zach Hambrick, who's the guy who became like a straight A student. He's actually a psychologist as well now. Um, but he, uh, started out never having written a paper, never studying for tests. And he just decided like, I want to be an academic psychologist. I'm this guy from like nowheresville, Virginia. And I want to like make something of myself. And that's really when he started studying and like, you know, using flashcards and reading a book called like how to make A's or whatever, um, is because he had a goal that was important

37:42to him. So I would just focus on whatever goal is, um, kind of overarching for you and that is keeping you going, um, and then tie all of those tedious little conscientious tasks to that goal.

37:59Yeah, it really can be done. Uh, you really can change that one dramatically. Um, I went from like a kid in special ed to, uh, Yale PhD. I mean, I did so much, uh, studying at Carnegie when I was an undergrad at Carnegie Mellon. I just would study like eight, nine hours a day, you know, really put in the work and, uh, became, uh, you know, Gritty was part of my identity, identity. And, uh, quite frankly, I was featured in Angela's book, Grit. So, uh, yes, I was, I met Scott Barry Kaufman in Angela Duckworth's book.

38:32Well, there you go. Yeah. And was it because you became really interested in what you were studying? Um, well, I kept, no matter, you know, at various points being told I was stupid, told I was, uh, not going to make anything of myself, uh, because of my intelligence. Um, I just kept showing grit at every turn. Wow. Um, I just think that grit is, I, I'm a fan, I'm a fan, I'm a fan of grit. You're, you're proof of the grit pudding. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

39:02Definitely. Yeah. I mean, just, it's so important to not give up, you know, and, uh, um, and yeah, and having a commitment to something you love is, is in itself, itself a good, you know, whether or not, whatever happens about it, you know, wherever the outcome is, I mean, just being passionate and persevering is a good part of a good life. Um, but that's my view. That's amazing. Um, so you, um, so you were able to increase your, well, thank you. Thank you. So you were able to keep, increase your conscientiousness.

39:32Is that right? So my, mine was already really high and, um, I didn't work on increasing it, but, um, I through kind of, uh, I was able to describe like how other people, um, are able to increase their conscientiousness. Um, and it's, it was almost always because they had some bigger project or bigger mission that they were working toward. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Uh, that, uh, how that can really activate, you know, you know, um, those who have a why

40:05can face anything as a mutual quote like that. Yeah. Uh, um, that's wonderful. Um, but with all this said, it is important to know when to grit and to know when to quit. So I think there's value in that and, uh, not being, and, you know, just, just the same spirit, which you can change your personality. You can also change your alignment to things right in your life. Is it true that, okay, let me ask this question by you changing your personality, did your

40:38goals change at all in life? Yes. Um, so one thing that I was struggling with when I started this book is that I thought I, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to have kids because I thought I didn't have the right kind of personality to be a mom. I thought moms had a very specific personality and that I didn't have that. And, um, this kind of gave me the confidence to pull the trigger on that. Um, because I kind of saw, first of all, that, um, moms have all sorts of personalities.

41:12Um, and also that like a lot of these, um, traits that you think are just set in stone and you're just like this and you'll never be able to be different. Um, they actually are a lot more flexible than you think. Um, and also people in our lives can bring out traits in us that we didn't really realize that we had. Um, so my son has brought out a lot of traits in me that I don't exhibit in other areas of my life and that I'd never exhibited before. Like, I'm really not like a silly, like cutesy person.

41:43Um, and I'm silly and cutesy with him all day, um, because he brings it out in me because I love him and I, I like love to, you know, make him happy. Um, and, um, yeah, so I, I, I think it was just, I mean, I know that most people don't need to do a giant research project to like, know that like having a kid changes you, but like I really did, I, I needed that reassurance that like, um, I could kind of like rise to meet the challenge. Nice. Nice.

42:15Um, yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's self-empowerment right there. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you could put it that way. Yeah, maybe.

42:24Thanks, Olga. This is your agree. A year ago, you would not have said that, said that so nicely.

42:31I don't know. I probably would have. Um, okay. Anything else you want to say about, um, how things change? Cause there is a whole literature on how, when roles change, um, personality can change. There's top down effects of environmental changes that then change your personality. Yeah. Organically. Right. Like getting a divorce, getting a new partner sometimes can change your personality. Getting a new partner. I think the two that, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think the two that, that, um, I've seen that have been the most studied is getting a job again, that you're

43:04interested in. People tend to become more conscientious. Um, so, uh, you, you saw this with yourself, but also, um, you know, other people see this all the time when they finally, you know, go from high school to, you know, out in the working world and they are doing whatever they're fired up about. They suddenly become a lot more committed to it and, and have an increase in conscientiousness. Um, and then, uh, getting a partner that you love, um, uh, can decrease neuroticism and increase agreeableness, um, uh, and have kind of a beneficial effect on your personality.

43:36Um, I also looked like extensively, extensively, extensively into whether having a kid change, changes your personality. And the upshot there is that yes, but everyone says it changed them slightly differently.

43:52Like there's not like a huge effect because everyone's like, well, it made me more extroverted. It made me less extroverted. It made me like more neurotic. Like it made me less so, so it's just so, um, all over the place. I hear you. I hear you. Uh, it kind of makes sense. Yeah. Different personality traits will probably predict how that will affect you. Yes, exactly. At a better level. Um, uh, well, how can you keep changing? How, how can you really, um, take these principles and, um, like, how are you personally

44:25after a year still keeping up on, on your transformations? Um, so one thing I would try to keep in mind is that, um, you are not always going to feel like doing the things that are beneficial for you and for your personality. Um, so what I really recommend to people is to sign up for something that kind of is recurring and keeps going without you having to schedule it. So instead of being like, oh yeah, I'm going to change my personality. I'm going to like text my friends every week, um, to see if they want to get drinks.

44:59I would actually just like create a standing drinks thing every Wednesday at whatever time at whatever bar and like invite people to come every week, um, or join an existing group like that. Um, because one thing that we fall into is, um, kind of like you, you kind of like, uh, don't do what's good for you because you don't realize how good it will be for you. Um, and I really like, I try to fight against that by like pre-committing to certain things.

45:31Like I'm going to this play date on Saturday. I'm going to do this on Sunday. Um, and, and it's usually things that have a, like a standing commitment rather than me having to like initiate every time. Um, if that makes sense. So I, I would just like sign up for activities that keep going without you having to keep them going. Yeah. I like that. What are you doing personally? Um, so I have my mom's groups. Uh, I have my yoga.

46:01Okay. Um, I, I would not use me, my life currently as a model because, uh, new mom life is not very glamorous, but I, um, I would try to experiment with what you have available. You know, and everyone's going to have different things available in their community. Like, um, you might not have an improv group, but you might have a, a book club or, or some other kind of club that you can join. Okay. Uh, what about, uh, the extra version one? Um, I, I feel like people kind of have a biological set point.

46:33I feel like it just feels like pretty natural, no matter how much work you put in, like your biological kind of still want to keep going back to, we know there's a happiness set point, you know? Um, like, are you feeling that at all? Like, are you feeling the pull of your old self at all, Olga? Or have you completely, uh, like upgraded your system? Yeah, I definitely still feel the pull of my old self, but, um, I just kind of don't trust it as much. I don't trust my old self.

47:04Like, I don't trust that like staying in bed all day or watching TV all day will feel as good as I think it will. When I first come up with that idea, like, um, for my birthday, I had a big, uh, play date with like all my mom friends brought their toddlers and like, we all played in the park and like leading up to it, I was like, this is stupid. This isn't going to be fun. Like, this is dumb. This is going to be too chaotic. Why am I doing this? I really just want to watch TV all day. Like, um, and then it was like, it was great. I mean, it was chaotic and like, we didn't all get to talk because we were chasing our

47:35kids and like, um, you know, kids ate too much sugar and then they were like too hyper, but it was, it was good. It was, I'm glad I did it that way. Like, I'm, I'm happy that it happened that way, even though, um, you know, a million times that morning I almost canceled.

47:53Okay. Fair enough. Um, uh, well, thank you for being so vulnerable and honest in your journey, um, as a way to inspire others. Um, I don't feel like it was that vulnerable though. Like, I don't feel like your journey was too crazy. Uh, am I missing anything that was too crazy?

48:11No, I think we covered everything. Um, good. Yeah. I don't think there's anything else. Um, yeah, I would say that like, uh, oh, if people want the, like the OG list of, um, of challenges, um, uh, Nate's study is available on his website. It's Nathan Hudson and, uh, dot com. And then the study is, uh, you have to follow through and that will have the full list of challenges. Absolutely.

48:42I'm having my students take those challenges in the fall. Oh yeah. Awesome. That's part of the course. Um, well, Hey Olga, thank you so much for coming on, uh, again to my podcast and all the best with the book tour for this one. Yeah. Thank you so much.

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