The Lotus Eaters Episode 6: Psyches [unlocked]

Voyage into Homers Odyssey

0:00Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to the Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content, and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

0:52Let's get to the episode.

1:22Welcome to another episode of the Lotus Eaters.

Journey to the Underworld

1:29The Lotus Eaters. Today we are going to be talking about books 11 and 12 of the Odyssey. These are the final two books where Odysseus relates his journeys from Troy all the way until he gets to Calypso's Island. So it's kind of a flashback, even though he's telling it in the present, as we're reminded at one point. Yeah, I had forgotten. All of a sudden I'm like, oh yeah, that's where he is right now. Yeah, these are equally iconic to the last two, if not more so, because he visits Hades.

2:03He visits the land of the dead. He talks with a bunch of fallen Trojan war heroes. He meets Elpinor. That's nice. He sees his mother. And then just a slew of, you know, famous mythic figures like Sisyphus and Heracles and Dariadne and Phaedra. And Oedipus' mom, Epikaste, as they call her here. And, you know, this, and Tantalus, like a lot of these myths are born here. That's how, like, I don't think anybody knew about Sisyphus.

2:36This is all you get. Yeah, I looked it up. This is the first mention. And I think Oedipus too, at least as far as anyone knows. I guess anything that appears here would be the first time it ever appears. I mean, I'm sure these stories have been going on for a long time, but it's just, you know, for the Greek tragedians, this book is like, it gave them, you know, 70 years of glorious theater. And it's kind of, yeah, it's really amazing that way. And then. Would you say this is like the peak of the action, like the end of the rising action sequence, maybe?

3:09I would say we're going to take a step back action wise over the next few books. Because, yeah, in some ways, book 12 and going through with Scylla and, I don't know how to pronounce it, Carabith, is, I think, just an absolute action climax. Like, it doesn't get any better than that. Even the Cyclops, I think, isn't as kind of vividly told as that. So, yeah, definitely. It's like, it's the end of the first half of the book. And I think between going to the dead, the land of the dead, where there's not a lot of action in one sense, but in another sense, like all the themes kind of come clashing together in that book.

3:50And then, yeah, and then you go to book 12 and you could see, like, Nolan being pretty excited about getting to film some of that. And, yeah, I don't know how they're going to do it or how. And, you know, he likes to use practical effects. So, like, it could be awesome. It could be a mess. We'll see. He's really just going to breed monsters. Yeah. So that he can use them. Yeah, I was actually thinking, I was sort of wishing for these books to have someone who's a little more surreal, you know, like, it doesn't have to be like a Lynchian perspective into it.

4:28But even someone like a Denis Villeneuve or someone who could capture the scale of it, but is a little more impressionistic with how he handles this. Yeah. Although we'll see, you know, maybe Nolan's maturing in some aspect. And this is his swan song, his siren song. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, I think he recognizes that this can't be told realistically. Yeah. So, all right, should we get started? Yeah, let's dive in. I was really excited about the underworld. Not just because you get all this, like, it's like the red carpet of, like, the afterlife.

5:03Yeah. You get all these mentions, like, names dropping. But also because, like, the Greek conception of what the afterlife is is kind of fascinating. And it ends up just like having, you know, like a large influence on both Jewish and Christian notions of what the afterlife is because of the Hellenizing of Jewishness. And then works its way sort of into Christianity. Because, like, there really is no fleshed out conception of an afterlife like Hades or any of the other things that came after in Judaism, let alone Christianity, you know.

5:37It was like really the Greek and Romans that, you know, they were in control of the Jews at that time. And so you get a lot of these Greek ideas working their way into the theology. And you can see it kind of happening in the New Testament where, like, in the early Gospels, like, you have even just the concept of torment, which isn't fleshed out here fully yet. But you have some instances of people who are just being eternally punished in a way that just really kind of rears its head in the New Testament a couple of times. Yeah, right. Like, I wonder how much Revelations or something is influenced by this.

6:10Yeah, and Revelation name drops Hades. Yeah. Like, it actually says, you know, the lake of fire and Hades follows. And it's like, all right, like, by that time, they're really unifying these traditions. You know, a Greek tradition that had already been fleshed out more than in the Odyssey at that point. And maybe it's not explicitly laid out, the torment, but we see these graphic images, like the two vultures chewing on is a tantalus's liver. Yes. And the guy who's buried up in water up to his neck, but he can't actually get the water.

6:44Yeah. And I think that tantalus and Sisyphus are in this, like, river in Hades that's called Tartarus. Yeah. And that Tartarus, that notion is, like, getting us close to, like, the Christian notion of hell. Yeah. But, like, as of now, for the Greeks, it's still only, like, this little corner section. That's right. But you can see Dante, you know, building on all that shit. Totally. Yeah. It's actually, I'm looking at my notes, it's Tantalus who is up to his chin, and it's Titius, or Titius, who is getting his liver.

7:16Oh, whose liver is eaten. Yeah, yeah. Tantalus is the one tantalizing, right? Yes. He's, like, trying to, he's trying really hard to get the fruit, can't get the fruit. He's trying really hard to reach down for whatever, and can't get the water. That's where that comes from. I never, yeah. That never occurred to me. All the times I've read this, that never once occurred to me. I assume. I didn't look up for that. So anyway, I was really, like, digging this whole thing. And it's so haunting to me, the notion of the dead, you know, here, it's just everybody, it's just the land of the dead. It's not like people go there to be rewarded or punished yet.

7:48But it is, they're all just these, like, pale, like, shadows of what they were when they were alive. And that, for some reason, is just, like, super creepy. Yeah. You know, there's a heartbreaking scene, which I want to, like, read when we go to it, of Odysseus trying to hug his mother, but she's a shade. She's a phantom. They can't hug. And they try three times. And he doesn't understand. He's like a kid who's like, why, why won't my mom, why can't I hug her, you know? It's, like, so fucking sad. Yeah. And also so primal, I think. Like, I'm getting a lot of vibes of this being really a journey into Odysseus' psyche as much as it is, like, a journey of Odysseus trying to get home.

8:28Like, it really works on those parallel tracks in an interesting way. And here, I really do think you see some elements of that. Like, you know, the fact that Agamemnon comes out. And we've heard this story now of Agamemnon's story, like, four times already up until now. And still, we hear it again. And it's from Agamemnon. It feels like this constant reminder. You know, you don't know what Penelope's doing right now. I know. There's no trusting women anymore. That's what Agamemnon says.

8:59There's no you trusting women. It's so bad. No, not all of us married. Whores! It's so funny that you said this. I hadn't really put it together. But when you said it's like a trip into his own psyche. Like, psyche is the word for those, like, the souls that are down there are called psyches. The Greek word for those shades of the spirits sometimes is translated as soul, sometimes as breath. Yeah, interesting. So, we also, we didn't even mention the sirens, which is just the vernacular. Like, in the vernacular, it's like the first real commitment device.

9:32Oh, yeah. I had a question for you about this. Yeah. You're my resident expert. Jason is mentioned here in the Argonauts. And they say here that, like, oh, by the way, the only people who really have made it out through the first path is Jason. But the story of Jason and the Argonauts is told where? Like, where is that most famously told? In Medea. Okay. So, well, that's one of them anyway. Is Jason... Isn't that a Tyler Perry movie? Yeah. It's in the Tyler Perry. That's the first time it's mentioned again.

10:03Yeah, no, it's like the whole reason Medea ends up killing her own children is out of revenge against Jason because she is the wife of Jason. He wants to divorce her with some new slut. And so, she kills the kids, does something very bad to him, if not kill him, and kills his wife, too. You do not fuck with Medea. And that's one of the main takeaways I got from reading all the Greek tragedy that I've read is you do not fuck with Medea.

10:34Like, if you want to marry Medea, you're staying with Medea.

10:39Yeah. Great couple of books. Let's dive in.

Pouring Libations and Meeting Shades

10:42Yeah.

Pouring Libations and Meeting Shades

10:43They start out weeping. I think they ended the last book weeping, and they start out weeping. But they ended up, they go, and I love that they go to the limits of the ocean. Like, it's like they go to the end of the world, pretty much, it seems like. Totally. And I was looking up, you know, ocean just referred to all of the water on the surface, I guess, which it is now. So, they're just like, yeah, very liminal journey, this one. Yeah. It's somewhere where the Simerans live, and the sun just never rises. So, it's all darkness there.

11:12And this is on the journey to Hades. They're getting to Hades. But, yeah. Yeah. It sounds like Hades is like Norway.

11:20That's probably, probably somebody made it out there and back and was like, you guys. Yeah, in the winter, he's like, oh, my God. I think I saw the sun for like 10 minutes. So, they pour a lot of libations, wine and honey, and they get a pool of black blood from their sacrifices. So, I don't exactly get the rules, but it seems like as soon as you do that, just all the shades start streaming out. Yeah. Just like streams. They're attracted to the blood. Yeah. Yeah. And he has to keep them away so that they don't touch the blood before he wants them to.

11:55Yeah. Because he's just trying to get the prophet Tiresias. Is that? Yeah. To get Tiresias to tell him how to get home. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah. Like, he basically puts on like his gear and is like protecting the blood, which in a way that I just don't quite understand. If he can't hug his mom, like, what's he going to do with his sword? I had that same question. Why are they scared of a sword? They're all dead. They can't be touched. And they know that. We know from the mom. So, it's funny. But you can picture it still that they're like, oh, when he weighs the sword, you know.

12:26Yeah. It's pretty eerie. From every side, they crowded around the pit with eerie cries. Pale fear took hold of me.

The Fate of Elpenor

12:32Yeah. But then he sees Alpinor, which is a nice little moment. Like, I couldn't tell if he even knew that he was a ghost. But he does say the spirit of my man, Alpinor. But then he's like, how did you come here? You came on foot more quickly than I sailed. But I guess he knows. So, Alpinor replies and he says, I had just had bad luck from some god and too much wine. And I lay upstairs. I forgot to use the ladder and climb down from the roof.

13:03I fell headfirst. My neck was broken from the spine. My spirit came down to Hades. What I like about this is it's like you're calling it bad luck. But you got shit-faced and then forgot about the ladder because you're a bit of a shit for brains. And so, it's kind of like Zeus is right in the book one of the Odyssey. The men blame me for the gods, for the shit that they do. Very on theme. Yes. Like a kind of human here. One of the things that's just so touching to me is like, and this is for me the theme that stood out the most in this book was people want to be remembered.

13:44And so, this like character that I don't even remember if his name had been mentioned before. Like he was just a no-name. Like all of a sudden he's introduced to us. And he's like, like I beg you, he says, when you sail from Hades and you dock your ship again at Aia, please my lord, remember me. Yeah. Don't leave me there, I'm buried. And it's like the dead want to be remembered in a special way. And the role that Odysseus is playing throughout so much of this book is he is bearing witness to them. And he's telling their stories. And we're reading their stories like 3,000 years later. So, like it's kind of like it worked.

14:17It worked, yeah. Yeah, but you're right though that like this is, it works well as a metaphor where the way that we cherish the dead is in our memory, you know. And so, what he's doing is he's taking the time to remember all of those who died. Yeah, and who might not have someone to remember them. And so, yeah, he is a witness. He's bearing witness to the misfortunes and sorrows and just plain fuck-ups like even Elpenor. One curious thing, he says, you know, he asks him to swear to bury him, like you said.

14:50And he says, swear by your wife and father who brought you up from babyhood and by your son, Telemachus, whom you abandoned alone at home, I beg you. Like that seems like a little bit gratuitous. Again, it's his own psyche condemning him. Yeah, exactly. I think that's right. Yes, for sure. And then he agrees to do it. And as we find out in the next book, he does do it. So, then he sees his mother first, but, you know, this is famous Odysseus self-control. He weeps, but he doesn't let her near the blood until he can talk to Tiresias.

15:24I guess this is also the first time he realizes she's dead. Yep, yep.

Prophecy of Tiresias

15:29There's no other way for him to find that out. Yeah. Yeah, so then Tiresias tells him what he needs to do to get home. He's like, put your sword away first. Let me, like, I don't want to get sliced very sore. Let me drink some of this blood. I want something just passing right through me without feeling it. Yeah. He does give the warning about the sun god. He does tell him what awaits him when he gets back to Ithaca. And then it's kind of interesting that he still will have one task, even when all of that is done, assuming he can get back home and carry it all out.

16:04But he's got to take an oar to people with no knowledge of the sea and who do not salt their food because I take it they have no trade. They don't they literally don't know that the ocean exists. And he's supposed to bury an oar in this place and has to come back and make sacrifices to Poseidon. And then his debt, I guess, to Poseidon will be paid and he can die a gentle death. But, yeah, it's interesting that even once he gets home and even if he's able to defeat the suitors, he still is going to have something to do after that.

Encounter with the Dead

16:37Yeah.

Encounter with the Dead

16:38Right. And then and then the heartbreak. He's like, why? Like, I saw my mom. Why didn't she? Why didn't she do anything? Like, she didn't even seem to recognize me. He's like heartbroken, you know. Yeah. And Tiresias is like, no, this one's easy. Like, you can't. You have to get them close enough to you near to the blood. So Tiresias was able to, because I guess he's a prophet. But how did Elpinor do it? Yeah, right. He doesn't seem like a prophet. So I think probably maybe Odysseus let him have the blood because he was confused or something.

17:08Maybe he thought he was alive, right? He thought he was alive. Yeah. So then he talks to his mother. And, yeah, it's a heartbreaking scene, you know, culminating in that attempted embrace three times. Yeah. But did anything else pop out at you from this? I mean, just that she died not of anything that he thought, but just of the grief that he was gone, you know. I talk about, like, probably his own psyche, just thinking that with you gone, your mom's going to be so heartbroken that she'll just die without you.

17:41Yeah. But what she says doesn't seem fully consistent with what we've learned. And she says Telemachus still tends the whole estate unharmed and feasts in style. Like, he could only be, like, 10 years old there or 11 years old at most. Yeah. And he's always asked to council meetings. Didn't we hear that there were no council meetings? Yeah. Yeah. I figured she was telling, like, a nice lie to get him to feel better. Yes. I think maybe that's right. I also didn't know whether or not these spirits have any connection to, like, do they have any information about the world?

18:17Like, some sort of supernatural connection? Well, I don't know if they have supernatural connection. I don't think so. But I think what can happen is someone dies in Ithaca and tells her. But still, even if she's completely up to date on what's going on in Ithaca, this is still 10 years or nine years earlier. Right, right, right. And it's also still supernatural, just in a different way. Yeah. But, yeah, so she doesn't try to sugarcoat anything with the father. She tells him that he is completely wasting away in grief.

18:49And, yeah, like, he's living in rags. And that because of that and because she missed him and his sharp mind and kind heart, she died also of grief. Yeah. And he still doesn't understand why he can't hug her. And he's like, is it even you? Because how could your mother not hug you? And then she repeats here something that he keeps saying about himself. You're the most unlucky man alive. Yes. And she sort of lays out what happens after you die. Yeah. She says, our muscles cease to hold the flesh and skeleton together. As soon as life departs from our white bones, the force of blazing fire destroys the corpse.

19:24The spirit flies away and soon is gone, just like a dream, which is beautiful, I think. Yeah. Just like a dream. So then all the women. And it's interesting that we get all the women first. All the women are come streaming forth. And he tells us about so many of them here. Again, like you said, they are being remembered through his witnessing of them and his telling of the story. Yeah. We learn about a woman who fell in love with a river and Poseidon pretended to be the river and Richter.

19:59And was like, shh, don't tell anyone. Yeah. He's a true, like, he's like the one total shitheel of a god. He really is. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think they all would do. If you ever want to, like, see the extent of the depravity of these gods, read Ovid's Metamorphosis. Yeah. It's more fucked up than probably anything that I've read. Yeah. So we find out about Oedipus here and Epicaste. She married her own son.

20:29He killed his father. And then, like, it really just tells the story of it right there. Yeah. And a lot of other famous ones, some of which I recognize, some of which I didn't. We get Castor and Pollux make a little appearance here. Yeah. So, but it's after the women then that all of a sudden it says they were silent, spellbound. And you kind of think he's still talking about the ghosts. Yeah. Like, I don't know how Alcinoos is feeling about this.

21:05I know. And then she just tells them all, like, you got to give him a lot of gifts. And one of the main guys there says, our wise queen has hit the mark, my friends. Do as she says. But first, Alcinoos must speak and act. And that's, I really feel like this is dynamic as in the Phoecian Island. Like, she's really running the show. And everybody knows that she's really running the show. But they have to pretend that Alcinoos is the guy who's truly in charge.

21:35Yeah. Like, yes, yes. What she says. Yeah. You men will all help him. And I will help the most since I hold power here. That's how he ends it. Reminding everybody. Do you, though? Do you? I don't think so. Someone who holds power wouldn't say that, you know. No, no. One of the things that I didn't, like, think about until just right now is that she speaks up after he tells, like, that whole long thing about the women. Yeah. And I think she's impressed with him telling the stories of the women. I agree. And maybe he knew what he was doing there.

22:07Right. You just made a lot of that stuff up. It's like, no, I didn't spend all that time with the women. I got right to Achilles.

22:15I don't think so. I don't want to think that. I think he really did. I think she appreciated it. I think he probably knew that that might get Arete. That's what I mean. Like, that he said it, you know, he made it its own section because, like, the gifts, like, it would do good for him to have as many gifts as possible before heading home. And certainly more than zero, which is what he has right now. The garras, you know, because that's part of your honor is how much treasure you've been able to acquire.

Conversations with Fallen Heroes

22:43So now Alcinoas asks, did you see any of the people you fought with in the war? So he tells about that. And the first one he sees is Agamemnon, who tells him, again, the story that we've heard before. I think we've heard every detail that he says. But, yeah, he's very salty, like, toward women in general. But then he says, except for your wife. Well, it's funny because he's not fully consistent on it, right? He's like, your wife won't kill you, Odysseus, unlike my stupid bitch wife.

23:16The wise Penelope is much too sensible to do such things. And he's like, my wife prevented my eager eyes from gazing at my son. And he goes back to that. But then he also does say, like, you still can't trust her, though. So, and, you know, with Agamemnon, I never feel bad for him. You know, like, I feel like this is a little different than him bearing witness of the suffering of other characters. Even Elpinor, I kind of have more sympathy for. Yeah, but it is good that he gets, you know, it's like preparing him for the situation that he's going to face at home.

23:52And he gets this good piece of advice, which is like, tie up your ship in secret. Like, don't make it known that you've arrived once you get to Ithaca. Yeah, but I mean, so it might be good advice or not. I mean, you'll have to see. He's certainly going to take the advice. But as we go through the next books after this, you'll start to wonder if Agamemnon's advice might not have been what he needed. But I actually, I am not settled on that question. But, yeah. So then he sees Achilles.

24:22And this is a fascinating little exchange here. Yeah. So remind me what happened with Achilles. So the Iliad starts with a fight between Achilles and Agamemnon. And Achilles is completely in the right, like 100 percent. And still, Agamemnon steals his slave girl who, you know, I don't think he cares about her personally. But he's so insulted, publicly insulted by this person that he fundamentally doesn't respect.

24:53And he makes it very clear that he doesn't respect it. So he just quits the war. And like in book nine, Ajax, Odysseus and another like his old caretaker try to get him to come back. He still says no, even though Agamemnon is now offering like a huge compensation package, like a restitution. And then he has this best friend slash more than friends, Patroclus. And he wants to go back in the war because they're kind of getting their asses kicked without Achilles. He's their best warrior. Patroclus goes back.

25:24He is killed by Hector, the Trojan hero, big favorite of Zeus's. And that's the one thing that brings Achilles back into the war is to avenge Patroclus. Now he has like the thing that's going to drive his rage. So, you know, Spenton's like the first 16 books or 18 books of the Iliad just not in action. And partly it's because of he has a deep ambivalence about his situation. Even though he is the greatest warrior, he also has known from his mother.

25:58This is, I think, a key point for interpreting this exchange. His mother told him that he had a choice. He could either live a obscure life with no real glory. You know, no one will remember him. Or he could live and be the most glorious warrior who ever lived as a mortal, but he would die young. And he knows that in the Iliad. And so, you know, you have to assume that that's part also of what's making it so hard for him to work under the command of someone he thinks is fundamentally weak and selfish.

26:35Yeah. And then he goes back and when the Iliad ends, he is still alive. He's still alive, right? He dies in the interstitial. Yeah. So that's the backstory of Achilles. And so it's super interesting. Odysseus leads into the conversation saying, man, you are the, like, I'm the most unlucky person, but you are the luckiest person. You died a hero. And now all these people worship you in Hades. Like, don't be bitter.

27:05Yeah, exactly. And his answer, he says, is, Odysseus, you must not comfort me for death. I would prefer to be a workman hired by a poor man on a peasant farm than rule as king of all the dead. It's really interesting because, you know, the famous Milton line about Lucifer, better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. No. It's just like a flip. I'm wondering if it's just like a very clear flip of what Achilles is saying. Yeah. And here's I don't love her translation of that line in the Lombardo one, which I like.

27:38He says, Odysseus, don't try to sell me on death. I would rather be a poor workman hired by another, like, a poor guy on a peasant farm than lord over all these dead. So, like, he's really just saying here, number one, yeah, all this honor and glory, it doesn't mean shit when you're dead. Yeah. And, you know, also, I think, saying maybe I made the wrong choice. Like, if that's what he thinks, then he had that option and he didn't take it. Right. So, yeah, so it's fascinating.

28:09Again, like, there is a perspective that comes from death, right? And he's getting some of that perspective. Yeah. I think also this is very much idiosyncratic to him, though. Like, Agamemnon hates the way he died because it's just humiliating. But there does seem to be an ethic that Achilles himself doesn't subscribe to of better to die buried properly remembered as a hero than go on suffering in life. I mean, that's what Odysseus is complaining about, the fact that he is still alive and might just die somewhere not remembered either.

28:46But the great thing about this text is it's not like, oh, look at that. Achilles is rejecting the honor code that everyone subscribes by. Why he is the most honorable warrior, the most kleos-filled warrior of the Greek heroes is just undercutting it. You would think that it's like that from the first part of the exchange. But then he asks about his kid, you know, how was he? Did he stand up in battle? Was he a man? And Odysseus says, oh, yeah.

29:17Like, I don't know about your dad, but in terms of your son, he was a badass on the battlefield. You know, just acquitted himself. Amazing. And then he says, after I told him this, Achilles' ghost took great swift-footed strides across the fields of Asphodel, delighted to have heard about the glorious prowess of his son. And so it's like, he hasn't really rejected the honor code either. It's a beautiful little tension that I think, like, you could see the two conflicting parts of his heart. Yeah. I don't know why it resonates with me.

29:48Like, I can see why you'd be like, no, what was I doing? Like, you know, I could see thinking, yeah, I want this for my son. Like, I still embrace that. Well, I think the one thing that offended him is every Greek, you know, according to this system, had to make the choice, like, do I want to go to war where I might die, but I also might get glory? And maybe I'll die young but have glory, but also maybe I could be like Nestor and have all the glory and still live a long life.

30:20Like, that's the ideal thing. And Achilles had that possibility blocked off from him from the get-go. And he knew that. So it's like the game is different for him than it is for everybody else. It's kind of rigged. I remember I once gave a lecture on Achilles. This was in the Iliad, but I titled it, The Game is Rigged, which, from The Wire. And the thing you do when the game is rigged, the only thing you can do is not play. And that's what Achilles is doing for most of the Iliad.

30:51He's not playing the honor game. Yeah. I mean, The Game is Rigged is just a general theme of everything in these two chapters, too. Yeah. If not the whole fucking book. Yes, exactly. So then he sees Ajax. Do you know the story of why Ajax won't even acknowledge him? I did not know it, but I did look it up because they were competing over the armor of dead Achilles. And whoever it was, like, I read different things, but, like, it was decided that Odysseus deserved to keep the armor of Achilles, which was a surprise for Ajax because he was, like, supposed to be the shoe-in.

31:29But, you know. And he was, like, physically an incredible specimen and, you know, also loyal as a dog. Like, he was defending them. He was the person that made sure they got Patroclus' body back. But, yeah, in the Sophocles play, he's just decided, I'm going to kill all of them. Fuck these people. And Athena makes him think that they are a bunch of sheep and cows. So he just kills all these sheep and cows and then has to live with the shame. And he ends up taking his own life.

32:00And Odysseus, it's one of the few plays in that play where Odysseus actually comes across as somewhat sympathetic. In the same way that he is here where he's, like, come on, I don't give a shit about the armor. Right. It's like that skater last night. I don't care about a medal. And she won the gold medal. But she was very clear about not caring about it. So then you get just the stream of all the famous stories that we've kind of mentioned. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this deal that Heracles seems to have where he's, like, both in Hades but also out in the world. Like, is there ever, like, a backstory behind how he got that?

32:35Why do you say he's also out in the world? Oh, the man himself is with the deathless gods, happy and feasting. It's like part of him is in Hades, but then there is, like, the man. Like, because he's half-god? I actually don't really know that. I've never taught in anything where... No, no, I think he's full, yeah. He's full-god now? He's the daughter of Zeus and Hera. The son? I'm sorry, the son. And, yeah, it just says it's the phantom of... No, no, no, no, no, no. It's Hebe that's the child of mighty Zeus and golden Hera.

33:07Yeah, I meant to look up because I actually don't know really anything about him aside that he did labors and aside from what's here. I think Zeus is his father, though. Maybe it's his mortal side that's here. That seems right. And the mortal alchmini? Probably where alchemy comes from. Yeah, maybe, yeah. So that's right. That makes sense that it would be his immortal part is still with the gods. But the human side comes here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then he goes back to Hades' house to see if any more heroes wanted to come, and they all start thronging around going, whoa, you know, this is where I feel like we need a good surrealist here.

33:49Yeah, this is Night of the Living Dead with souls. Yeah, and he says, cold fear seized me lest the dreadful Queen Persephone might send the monster's head of the Gorgon out of Hades. He's like, okay, I'm out of here. I'm done. And there it is. Yeah. Pretty incredible.

Returning to Circes Island

34:08And I like that they go right back to Cersei's Island so they can bury Elpenor, you know? Man of his word. Yeah. He wasn't the smartest guy. He wasn't the best guy. He wasn't the soberest guy, but he deserves a burial. It is such a Deadwood death. Did we say that last time? We did. Like, I feel like, yeah, it's so true. I think someone might have commented that there literally is something like that on Deadwood. Like a hoopla head that dies that way, yeah. Or at least hurts himself, yeah. I think, like, I'm sure David Milch, like, was reading The Oddity.

34:42He's like, oh, that's going in. So then Cersei comes and says, oh, man, look at you. This is amazing. You all went alive to Hades. You will be twice dead when other people only die one time. And it's like, oh, awesome. That's great. I got to die twice.

34:59And then she's just, like, able to explain everything in more detail. I'm like, well, you could have said that before. Yeah. Good thing I had to go bury Elpenor, you know? Yeah, seriously. I love that, though. You'll be twice dead when other people die only one time, as if, like, that other. This is amazing. Yeah, that's so cool. She's geeking out over it. And, like, the implication that she wasn't sure that they would make it, you know? Yeah, no, totally, yeah. So then she tells him what to do with the sirens. She tells him, but then she says she's not going to give definite instructions beyond that.

35:33She says, let your heart decide. And the two choices boil down to if you go this one way where M. Fatridi is, like, you're probably all going to die. Only Jason has gotten through that alive. And Hera loved Jason. But the second way, you're going to go, and you're going to have Scylla, and you're going to have Charybdis, who three times a day just sucks all the water down into her. Just, like, flushes the toilet of the ocean, just basically.

36:04Exactly. So I wouldn't do that. What you've got to do is go behind Scylla. Am I pronouncing that right? Scylla? Yeah. Scylla? Yeah. Some people say Scylla, but the sea is hard, like with Kyrki. Yeah. So there you're going to lose, she's going to snatch up six of your men. And don't bother arming yourself, because you'll probably just lose six more of them if you do that. So then he does kind of protest. He's like, maybe there's another way, like, could I get around Charybdis and stop so that Scylla, before she tries to kill all my men, he says, she says, no, you fool.

36:40Your mind is still obsessed with deeds of war. But now you must surrender to the gods. She is not mortal. She is deathly evil. Yeah. She is deathless evil. Like, so she's evil embodied. And, like, I like this moment because Odysseus is very proud, and rightly so, of the way that his wits have helped him escape so many situations. And here's a situation where he's told, nope, like, you've got to avoid that temptation, because it doesn't matter how smart you are. Like, there's no way around this one.

37:11Yeah. And it's like he's fighting a temptation. You know, he doesn't do a very good job of fighting the temptation. No, he doesn't. So then it's kind of interesting. He then reports to his men what Cersei told him. And he mostly reports the truth. We learn that he leaves out Scylla. You know, I think unequivocally, maybe, he made the right decision to not tell them that six, or at least it's prophesied or guaranteed that six of them would die, or all of them, because that can't be good for morale.

37:41No. Right. Yeah. They're already teetering, I think. They just traveled to Hades. Yeah. I mean, one of the huge things throughout is, like, I could see, if we were business school professors, we could teach a course on leadership in the Odyssey. Because he is, at times, just like a good leader, at times not a good leader. But it's all really so much is contingent upon his leadership decisions. For sure. Same with the Iliad. It's really about, like, leadership. And sometimes you have good leadership, and sometimes you don't.

38:13And, like, you know, yeah, we've talked a lot through these four books about Odysseus' failures as a leader, but then also his shining moments. Yeah. So they go to the sirens, and I thought it's interesting exactly what they say.

The Sirens and the Temptation of Knowledge

38:30We don't even get a great description of, like, what they are. No, no. And I remember reading about them a long time ago and how, you know, we just sort of, like, wrapped up mermaids into this thing somehow, you know? But, like, it's not clear at all. It's sort of absorbed, like, kind of a blurry image of what they're like, probably from paintings and stuff like that, and the mermaid connection. But, yeah. Yeah. So here's what they say. Odysseus, come here. You are well known from many stories. Glory of the Greeks. Now stop your ship and listen to our voices.

39:01All those who pass this way hear honeyed song pouring from our mouths. The music brings them joy, and they go on their way with greater knowledge. Since we know everything the Greeks and Trojans suffered in Troy by God's will, and we know whatever happens anywhere on earth. So this part was so fascinating to me, having never read the actual description. Yeah. Yeah, because the way that it's, like, always been told to me, or, like, I guess the only thing I've heard, is that somehow they're alluring because they're either beautiful themselves and their song is beautiful,

39:38or just their song is so beautiful that it's alluring, but it seems like the reason that it would be so tempting for Odysseus to go is not because they were beautiful, or the songs were beautiful, or maybe not just because of that, but because they're saying shit that's really going to get to them. They're like, you're awesome, plus we have all the secrets. Yeah. Like, we can make everything, like, known to you. Yeah. You know, it's the temptation of the hero, kind of. Yeah, it's the temptation of the hero, but also, like, the temptation of knowledge. Yeah, exactly. It's the serpent, or the devil in the New Testament.

40:09Like, the devil takes Jesus when he's fasting, and he says, all you have to do is obey me, throw yourself off at the top of this building, and I will give you all of this. Like, you know, he's making promises that all you have to do is sacrifice everything you've worked for, but then it will all be yours. Yeah, and it's an ingenious thing that he's able, well, I guess it's not really ingenious on his part, because Cersei told him to do it, but that he is able to tie to the mask, he won't stay, and, you know, he does start cursing.

40:41I think, you know, this could be funny. Matt Damon's, like, cussing them out, like he's in Good Will Hunting or something like that. But he, so he can, he alone is the only person who's ever lived who has heard what they say and heard the song. Yeah. So, yeah, this is, you were alluding to this before, this has become, like, a famous metaphor for a form of self-control, like, binding yourself so that you won't fall to temptation. Famous book by an economist was written, Ulysses Unbound.

41:12Yeah. Also, Robert Frank talks about our emotions sometimes serving as commitment devices. Yeah. Another economist, and here we were so hard on economists. But, yeah, it's like making it physically impossible for you to give in to great temptation, and it's a perfect metaphor for that. Like, there's so much here that's just foundational. Yeah. So they go, this is just very cool. If you're reading along, I don't know if we're going to be able to do it much justice beyond what it says in the actual text.

41:45You could just see it in your mind's eye as you're reading it. It jumps off the page. So the only thing I was going to say, really, is at the beginning, it's unclear to me why.

Scylla and Charybdis

41:56I guess this is just fear or preparation or whatever. Like, even though she told him, like, don't put your armor on. That'll just be even worse. I guess in the moment it's just too hard for a warrior not to feel like he must prepare himself by putting on his armor. Yeah. So even though she says, don't do this because you might end up losing six more men, he says, it was too hard for me. That's all he says. There's no binding for here. I dressed myself in glorious armor. In my hands, I took two long spears, and I climbed up the forecastle.

42:26I thought that Rocky Scylla would appear from that direction to destroy my men, but then they're all looking at Charybdis with the, like you said, the flushing the toilet of the ocean. With a dreadful gurgling noise. And meanwhile, Scylla, like, just snatches up the six men before he even knows what's happening. And what I think, you could have a couple of different interpretations of this. You could have one where he's like, no, I'm going to fight to defend my men no matter what. I don't care what Xerxes says.

42:57But you could also have, there's something a little ridiculous about it. He gets all tricked out in his armor, his glorious armor. He goes up. He thinks Scylla is one place, but she's completely the other place. Then he just stands there with his mouth gaping open at Charybdis. And meanwhile, Scylla just takes the six men and it just didn't matter at all that he put on his armor. So, like, I think you could play it. Like, if you were going to film this, you could film it as, this is absurd. He's just getting all dressed up.

43:28Like, look at me. I'm a real warrior. And just looking the wrong way. And so it could be like a little Alpenor-ish as well. And it happened so fast. It's like, you know, all that preparation. And just like he was briefly looking away and that's when it happened. His strongest, best fighters, too. Yeah. Yeah, right. Exactly. Like, it feels like he cannot give up the thought that any prophecy might not be a contingent one. Like, I could find my way. Like, come on, Odysseus. Think your way out of this one.

43:58You know? Like, I know she said no, but like. She doesn't know me. She doesn't know me. While our frightened gaze was on Charybdis, Skilla snatched six men from the ship, my strongest, best fighters. Looking back from down below, I saw their feet and hands up high as they were carried off. In agony, they cried to me and called my name, their final words, as when a fisherman out on a cliff casts his long rod and line set round with ox horn to trick the little fishes with his bait. When one is caught, he flings it, gasping back onto the shore.

44:29So those men gasped as Skilla lifted them up high to her rocky cave and at the entrance ate them up, still screaming, still reaching out to me in their death throes. That was the most heart-rending sight I saw in all the time I suffered on the sea. Yeah. They're reaching to him again. Nightmare. This is a nightmare. Exactly. They're calling his name. They're getting. It's. We're very deep into his, like, terror and his fears. Oh, man. One thing also that makes me think that, you know, that there's something very dreamy about this is he tells them, like, don't be scared.

45:01You know me. Like, remember me from the Cyclops? Yep. And what happened then? He lost, like, six of his men were eaten in, like, the worst, most grisly possible way. And literally the exact same thing happens here. He loses six men in the most grisly possible way. Yep. And so now, maybe now, he's going to, like, take more seriously the words of the prophet to avoid the cows of the sun. Yeah. Well, he does. He does. And this is the thing. The other tension here where it's, like, when it's him, he feels, I think, like, there's, he can always be the exception to this.

45:36But, like, when the instructions were for his men, then he's, like, come on now. Like, that's what the goddess said. Like, you can't do it, you know? Oh, wow. I didn't even think of that way of interpreting it. He's so strict with his men. He's like, no, this is the instruction. I mean, I don't know if he just has more reason to believe that or the consequences are more dire for that one. Yeah. But he's not thinking of ways to get around that one. That's true. Maybe it's just that there's no real upside other than getting some meat for the men. But they have some supplies.

46:06So, at first, it's easy not to eat them.

The Cattle of the Sun God

46:08But then they run out of supplies. And they're trying to get fish and birds. But now they're starting to starve. And he's still telling them, like, it doesn't matter. Don't do it. That's the sun god. And then Yuri Lokus, who is the one who kind of bucked a little bit when they first got to Circe's Island. And it was almost like a fight, a mutiny. But he's also like his best friend, like his leading guy. He makes the case that, like, they should kill the cows. He says, listen, my friends, you have already suffered too much.

46:39All human deaths are hard to bear. But starving is the most miserable of all. Let us poach the finest of these cattle and sacrifice them to the deathless gods. I would prefer to drink the sea and die at once than perish slowly, shriveled up here on this desert island. So, it's like, it's not unreasonable, like, I think, the case that he's making. No. And my guess is that it's even more reasonable for the men because if anybody's going to get, like, their portion of the rations, it's going to be Odysseus. So, he's probably not in the same direction.

47:10I mean, who knows, but, like, it seems as if he might not be suffering as much. And the text does say, but that month the south wind blew and never stopped. So, they're there, it implies, for the month. Yeah, they're there for an entire month. So, they go through their entire supplies. Yeah. Yeah, they just decide they have nothing to lose, really. I think that's the case that Euryalochus is making. Meanwhile, Odysseus is off trying to just pray to the gods for what to do and he falls asleep. Blame Zeus for it.

47:41Blame Zeus. You blinded my mind with that infernal sleep. It's just like when he was piloting the ship and almost made it back to Ithaca but fell asleep. And so, Zeus is like, see, you know, I have fucking had it with these humans. We do enough bad things where you could legitimately blame us that, you know. Right. Right. Like, we rape people on occasion, but, like, I didn't make you fucking fall asleep. We'll dress up like the river and rape you. But, like, when you get drunk and fall off a roof, I don't want to hear it.

48:15So, then that prophecy comes true. Yeah, because Helios is like, okay, Zeus, you see what happened. You got to punish. You got to punish those men. I killed my cows. He really is like a college dean, like Zeus. Just like he has all these department chairs, like, oh, you got to do this. You got to do that. We need this new line, you know. He's just like, all right, Helios. I got it. Don't worry. You know, I'll take care of it. Lightning bolt. And I actually think the end of this is so cool.

48:46Everybody else has been killed and he's hanging on to, like, part of the mast. And then he sees Charybdis and he just kind of hopes that she's going to belch up part of his ship. And it does.

49:06He goes, I hoped Charybdis would belch up my mast and keel back up. She did. And, yeah, he's able to get on to that and then just have to row himself. Zeus helped him out here and he gets to Calypso. And then he says, but I'm not going to tell you that story. It's annoying, repeating tales that have been told before. I love that ending. Yeah. Like, why should I tell you the story that I already told you yesterday? Yeah. It's annoying. Yeah. This is all kind of annoying because I really want to get the fuck out of here.

49:39But, yeah.

Adapting the Epic for Film

49:41I mean, it was the king who was like, come on, just one more night.

49:48Yeah. Really amazing stuff. These are the kinds of scenes that when the movie does come out, it might make or break the movie. Because I can see in my mind's eye, like, old claymation interpretations of this kind of stuff, you know? Like, that you catch on USA repeats that were filmed in, like, the 70s. Yeah. Where it's, like, some really poorly done effect. Yeah. But if it's, like, MCU bullshit, like, that's going to be very disappointing. He won't do that green screen shit. If he does, I disavow him for eternity.

50:21But this has to be, there had to be, like, a plan for this. Yeah, I think so. For sure. And I think, you know, this is the kind of thing I think he can do pretty well. Like, maybe he calls up his buddy James Cameron. Help me out here. Leave your, yeah, leave your computers at home. I mean, talk about James Cameron. This is, like, the end of this chapter is, like, he was, like, Leo on the Titanic, like, hanging on to the little scrap of the ship. Totally.

50:48Yeah, he's another one that could have attacked this. And there would have been considerably more CGI, I think. There would have been more CGI. But he's good at it. You're right. Denis Villeneuve. Yes. I think would have been ideal because he makes CGI just have the reality of the world still exists in his stuff. James Cameron, storytelling, I don't think is his, like, best suit. No, but he's given the story so he doesn't have to come up with it himself. I literally was just reading, I don't know why, but James Cameron quote where they asked him, like, people would bitch about, why couldn't Leo get, like, on top of the wood, like, with Rose and, like, survive the night?

51:26And his answer was, because on page 147 it says he dies.

51:34No, he's not, like, the best writer, but he can direct an action scene. He can. And you would think, though, that, like, the world would come together. And if you're going to put this to film, have Denis Villeneuve, like, as an advisor. Have James Cameron as an advisor. Like, make this, like, worthy of this cornerstone of the Western canon. Do it justice. Except that I do also think that it should be kind of auteur-driven as well. So, like, I don't know. Like, I think both.

52:06But, like, maybe you need a single vision for how you're going to attack this. Yeah. And I mean more like the, that have, just like your DP, like, be Denis Villeneuve and his, you know, or whatever, for, like, these, have it a singular vision. Yeah. But, like, go turn to people who might make your shit. Here's what I want to do. The best it can possibly be. Yeah. Tell me how to do this. I have to say, though, I don't know if you feel this way. Like, I don't see how anybody could pull it off. Villeneuve, Nolan, you know, bring David Lynch back to life.

52:39Like, I just think that this might be unfilmable. And even, you know, there's already a lot of annoying culture war shit about, like, the casting of it. Yeah. But just having these characters be actors is already weird to me. You know, like, actors that I know. Matt Damon is going to be fucking Odysseus. Like, I like Matt Damon, but I just think, like, I don't know if there's any way for me to really like this. I'm definitely going to have to put aside the book and just see it as a movie. Yeah, exactly.

53:10You don't want to see him go to the suitors and say, how do you like them apples? Like, at the end, it just ends.

53:18The big issue to me is, like, this is not even a narrative of the sort that is, like, nowadays when people write books, it's almost like they might have a film in mind. But this is just too, there's so much here, like, that there's going to have to be some real serious decisions about what to exclude. And once you start getting into that, then it'll be tough to make it satisfying. And even just this, like, what we've been talking about, and I've never felt more than I feel now on this read-through in our discussions, that this is also a kind of inner journey that's like both a journey into your own psyche and a journey that's happening in the external world.

53:58Like, even just how do you demonstrate that? I assume Nolan is going to just kind of put that other side of it aside, the internal side aside. But then, you know, even that is a little disappointing because a lot of the dynamism of the story is that it has all these different elements. Yeah. That's where I don't trust Nolan so far, whereas there's a couple of things. One, I don't think he does intra-psychic too well. Like, I don't think he does intra-psychic conflict. Memento, maybe, to some degree.

54:28Maybe, but that's still so driven by, like, the content that you see of, like, the events. But he does a little bit of, like, that first-person sort of narration. But in, again, like a real stripped-down version of a human being. And then when you get to, like, shit like Inception, it's like, yeah, technically this is all supposed to be in Dreamland, but you're not really getting any conflict of the psyche in there. It's just an action movie. Very disappointing. And then, apologies to Jeffrey Watermore, but you get him getting corny in Interstellar.

54:59A truly awful movie. Like, a terrible movie. I cannot handle. I will not be able to handle any corniness in this. Like, if he gets corny at all, like, just burn it to the ground. Don't ever throw those IMAX cameras away. Oh, Odysseus, Penelope. What are you going to be like? It's about love. It was a love story all along. I mean, I do think this is a love story, but not in a corny way. It could very well be, but Nolan can't tell those. You know, Nolan? No, yeah. So, but in his defense, like, I think probably he's the best equipped to do some of the set pieces.

55:35And I think he's sensitive. Like, he's going to want to do it some justice. So, I bet there'll be good scenes. I just think it's like, I don't think you can actually do it. I worry, too, that he's going to, like, enlist Jonathan Nolan and they're going to make this into, like, some labyrinthine plot where it's like, eh, it was enough there. I will give him credit for, as I'm thinking about it, I feel like Oppenheimer did demonstrate a step up in his ability to tell the story of, like, one individual that is fairly conflicted and kind of mildly tortured.

56:07And very well written for him. Like, the dialogue is great. Like, you really get a sense of the characters. And, you know, the shifting narratives part of it, which is always his thing, I think kind of worked. It was fairly seamless and, yeah, I agree. I thought that was a huge step up for him in ways that are, yeah, not what we usually associate with Nolan films. Yeah. So, holding out hope. Yeah, but I don't know. All right. This was definitely the end of the first, you know, there's an intermission now and he's got to get himself ready to face the suitors and he's got to figure out how to introduce himself to everybody.

56:46So, there's some really cool stuff coming up. So, this is, we have, we're officially at the halfway point. Yeah. And I do like that at this point, at the halfway point, we have gotten the whole story of how he lost all of his men. Yeah. Like, I think it's important for us to, like, have this, like, now we know what he's living with. Yeah. Like, you know. We're completely caught up because we've heard about his seven years with Calypso. So, all right. Well, we'll be back to talk about books 13 and 14.

57:20Odysseus will meet Athena in the next book and they'll have a nice, a fun exchange. A lot of good stuff to come. Join us next time on The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. Let's go.

57:56Let's go. We'll be right back.