Episode 342: A Boy's Best Friend (Hitchcock's "Psycho")

Top 100 TV shows

0:00Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes. We all go a little mad sometimes.

0:22Haven't you? The Great Enhoss has spoken!

0:32Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

0:40Who are you? Who are you? I'm a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Good man. Good man.

0:51They think deep thoughts, and with no more brains than you have. Pay no attention to that man.

1:01Anybody can have a brain.

1:05You're a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard. Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Summers from the University of Houston. Dave, the New York Times, or as you call it, the Jew-York Times, just came out with their list of the top 100 TV shows of the century. Do you want to guess where Deadwood ended up? You know, I didn't look for Deadwood. I mean, we agree it should have ended up as number one. Yeah. Especially since they didn't include The Sopranos,

1:35because I don't know what their rules were. It had to start, like, after 2000. Yeah, but then they did include Twin Peaks, which is in the 40s or something. But I think they just thought The Return was its own show and not connected. Yeah, it's good, because I didn't actually look. So I saw, like, the top, top ones. So I'm going to guess they put it at 52. No, but, like, we should burn down. I mean, we should burn down The New York Times anyway. But, like, if it was at 52, that would have been an outrage. Even greater than the outrage than it actually is, which is 24.

2:08Oh, good, good. So I was guessing in the direction. Of outrage. Yeah, of outrage. 24. It's not that I don't find it conceivable that those idiots would put it at 24. It's that when you read what's above it. White Lotus is above it. Like, talk about recency bias. It's not even the recency of it. It's just not, like, a very good show. No, no, it's a bit of a... It's fine. It's, like, it's kind of fun at most. But, like, Deadwood was our fucking Shakespeare. And, like, it's like putting, like, the Victorian Times put best, like, playwrights.

2:44And Shakespeare was 24. Yeah. What are the top fucking ten? Yeah. Breaking Bad, of course. Number one. The Wire. Wire or two is I have no issue with. Yeah, I don't. Succession, whatever. I was pleasantly surprised that Fleabag was five. No, there's some ones like Veep also is very high, as it should be. Arrested Development. I'm surprised Atlanta got up there. Like, did they even watch it or are they just saying? Yeah. No, I mean, like, I think Atlanta is kind of up the New York Times alley.

3:15And it was up my alley. Like, it would make my top ten, maybe. It would be right around ten. It would probably make my top ten. Yeah, I just, Arrested Development is fairly high. Girls, by the way, is better than Deadwood. I don't know if you knew that. I just noticed that Girls is number 13 and I have feelings about this. This is crazy. Six feet under. Gotcha. Dude, there's, like, just millennial women who, like, made this. Yeah, I think that's right because the American office is higher than the British office. Than the British office, yeah.

3:46Yeah, 30 Rock at eight is a little ridiculous. Game of Thrones, which everyone hated. Like, if you want to say Deadwood, well, it didn't end well. It ended better, like, a hundred times better than Game of Thrones ended from what people say. Yes, for sure. Like, I watched the whole thing. It was great. If you could remove the last season, it belongs up there. Yeah. But I'm sorry. There are consequences. Oh, Lost is better than Deadwood. The Crown is better than, like, all these shows that kind of suck. Yeah. Better than Deadwood. I like the Americans being up there.

4:17Yeah. Not better than Deadwood, but I like that it's up there. No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know if this will rise to the level of what we're going to talk about in the opening, which is things that could turn us into psychotic serial killers. But we are doing this very quick opening segment in honor of our main segment, which is Psycho. Yes.

4:40For a peek under the hood, we've recorded the first half of it, and it was so long, and we were so tired, and we realized we were just past the shower scene. So we've got to make this quick. But anyway, these are things in life that could maybe, you know, turn us into the Norman Bateses of our time. Do you want to start with your first one?

Boring conference talks

5:03Sure.

Boring conference talks

5:04Sure. This is my recency bias, because I just attended a conference that consisted of both philosophers and psychologists. And I really wanted to scratch my ears out when philosophers sit there and give, when you give your talks by just reading your boring paper up there. Like, this is 2026. Like, we can read your paper. It's a bad paper. Like, you reading it is me making it worse. So you wanted, like, a TikTok of the paper or something like that?

5:34Yeah, I wanted AI to transcribe it and give me, like, bullet points. I don't know how you can get up there seriously and, like, not make eye contact with the audience and just look down and read. And it's not like, because I do a fair amount of reading, but not of the paper as it's published. Like, I completely redo it in a speaking way. Yeah, well, that's normal. Yeah. Do you write it verbatim? No, not quite, but close. But I don't always, like, use, like, all those notes in the presentation. But I, you know, like, part of me designing a presentation is writing it out because, you know, like, I know my voice.

6:10I know my presenter voice. And so I always write in that. I actually think that's a good way of just writing writing is to imagine you're going to be giving this, you know, part of the reason it's so boring when a philosopher reads their paper is because they're boring writers. And, like, if they wrote it in a way where it was like, oh, I'll be presenting this and they gave a shit about how their presentation goes, which they clearly don't, or at least some of them, then, you know. Have the pretense. Just even the pretense that you're not reading it. Yeah. You know what it is, and I think this is maybe where it gets homicidal for you, is they have this attitude where it doesn't matter.

6:47Like, the style or whatever just gets in the way. It interferes with this glimpse of the truth, yeah, that I'm giving you. And that's all that matters, you know? Like, yeah. Yeah. It's true. You've, like, ripped open the metaphysical curtain. Yeah. You're letting me peer at the things in themselves. Yeah. And meanwhile, here you are, like, they should have PowerPoints and, like, funny videos and stuff, you know. Show me a baby doing something crazy. No, but I'm on your side. And especially, like, when they start going long, too, when, you know, they're supposed to talk for, like, 45 minutes and they start to get into 55 minutes, that's where you want to throw the gasoline on them.

7:25Oh, yeah. Yeah. Psychologists do that, too. I hate it when, like, sometimes there are these short talks at conferences where everybody has, like, 15 minutes to present their data or 20 minutes or whatever. So there's somebody showing them how much time they have left and they just ignore that. Or they'll give a little nod and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, just a couple more slides. And then they just go on for, like, time where – and they're just, like, ripping time out of the, like, presenters, like, ahead of them. Yeah. No, I know. And sometimes this is the thing that actually, like, I want to strangle them is they'll look at this and I'll say, I guess I don't have time for this. Because you're looking at how many pages they have left.

7:57You know, you're kind of looking. You're seeing if it's both sides. And then they pause for a second. They go, no, you know what? Let me just go – I'll go through this kind of quickly. And then they just end up reading it word for word and going 15 minutes over. So, like, they tease you. Like, that's a feeling that, no, we're back. Yeah. All right. What's yours?

Voice text and AI ads

8:15All right.

Voice text and AI ads

8:16Mine is, you know, like, at my age, like, technology is going to be a big part of what turns me into a killer. I do voice text all the time. And iPhone, for whatever reason, is very bad at transcribing. It doesn't do context or things like that. It doesn't, like, have a memory of past things you've corrected. You know, it's very frustrating, like, even if you're texting someone and you say their name or you say someone else's name in a group chat, that doesn't mean for them that it's likely to be that name.

8:49So, like, it really is bad. But the thing that drives me completely insane is when it transcribes what I'm saying correctly as I'm going. So I'm like – and I, like, see it. I'm like, okay, good. And I'm continuing. And then as I'm speaking the next part, it goes back and then changes it to something just totally insane, just deranged. When it actually makes up, like, a word that doesn't exist, it knows it because it will red underline it as, like, a nonsensical word. Yeah. And it's not even something that sounds like what you said.

9:20It's capitalized so to, like, often be a proper name that doesn't exist. That's when I think it's actually trying to drive me insane. Like, it's actually, like, designed to do that. Yeah, this might be, like, MKUltra. Like, they might be in league with the government to try to, like, induce mental illness in, like, something. You've been, like, randomly assigned to the mental illness condition. Yeah, definitely. The other day I was typing something on my phone in notes. It might have even been for, like, our psycho notes. And it kept writing something in all caps. And I was like, what?

9:51What are you doing? Like, when have I ever written anything like that in all caps? This is machine learning. This is what, like, the AI revolution has brought us. This is the thing we're worried about. It goes rogue and, like, annihilates humanity. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it might annihilate humanity by mistake. Or by, like, making us all just, like, kill ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. You know, this gets to another one that I wasn't going to bring up because, like, I feel, like, uncomfortable revealing these things. But there's two kinds of ads that I've seen lately, depending on what it is that I'm looking at on the internet.

10:27And they're both AI-based. And they're both exactly what I would think you would never want AI for. One of them is AI music apps that are aimed at, like, music creators. They're like, you can now make, like, amazing music. And it's just, like, some shitty, you know, you just prompt it. And they always have, like, a musician being like, give me four bars of blues riffs starting in the key of whatever. And it's like, really? Do you think, like, a musician wants that soul-sucking technology? Like, if you know enough to say that to the AI, then you know enough to, like, do it yourself.

11:00And the second one, though, is AI porn. Which, like, unfortunately, like, I see ads where it's, like, the combination of everything that is soul-sucking about AI art combined with this, like, weird, I don't know, maybe misogyny where it's, like, create the girl of your dreams. No need to, like, deal with, like, you know, like, actual rejection, you know? Or, like, you don't have to deal with the actual physical flaws of any real person. You can make them have, you know, and it's just, like, tiny waist, big boobs.

11:34And you can create these things and, I guess, jerk off to them? Yeah. Well, I have not, like... Yeah, maybe it's just Pornhub and you don't get that. I don't. That's true. I need a VPN.

11:48Yeah, that sounds terrible. Yeah, dude. Like, also, do you, like, prompt the woman of your dreams and you jerk off to her? Like, that is even less satisfying than, like, me jerking off to a real person, like, which is already depressing. Yeah. Which you can't, like... Yeah, maybe it's just Pornhub and you don't get that in your... I don't. That's true. I need a VPN. But, yeah, that sounds terrible.

12:19Yeah, dude. Like, also, do you, like, prompt the woman of your dreams and you jerk off to her? Like, that is even less satisfying than, like, me jerking off to a real person. Yeah. Like, which is already depressing. It's already depressing. Oh, God. Just, at that point, just use your imagination. Yeah. Your imagination is the ultimate AI. Yeah. You can imagine whatever you want. Exactly. Unless you're YOL. That's right. Our young men are being robbed. Yeah, it was funny. It's like a lot of things, you know? It's like blogging. Like, the last generation had a golden age of porn.

12:51Like, the first generation porn sites for free at your fingertips when you're, like, 13. And now it just sucks, you know? Like, it always starts out really good and then it gets really bad.

Israel discourse on Twitter

13:03I guess I will say that, you know, I guess I would do a Twitter one. Israel discourse on Twitter is typically kind of enraging. But, like, one thing that I absolutely can't stand are these people, you know, who reply to people who are pro-Palestine, who are critical of Israel, who call it a genocide or whatever. They're like, how come you always talk about Israel and you don't talk about Sudan or you don't talk about Ukraine? And it's like, these people obviously don't give a shit about Sudan.

13:36They couldn't even tell you what was going on there. They heard that atrocities were happening there. And so they use it to accuse people of anti-Semitism. Like, it has such an easy answer, even if the charge was in good faith, which is, like, the American government is supporting. It's like we're giving them the weapons to do this. We have been hand-in-hand with Israel. That's why you're protesting it. That's why you're outraged. If you are an American, like, so it has the most obvious answer. We have been explicitly supporting it. And we haven't been doing that for, like, Russia.

14:08Or have we? You're such a Russiagate liberal. No, but just the general, like, well, why don't you care about X is such a bad faith thing. Right. Because that's the other thing is to condemn one thing, it doesn't mean you don't condemn other things. The whole, actually, the way the accusations of major Jewish organizations, the way they accuse people of anti-Semitism without even pretending that it's not just about being critical of Israel or critical of Zionism, that does drive me absolutely insane.

14:42It makes me very ashamed of Judaism because when all the major, not all, but many of the major institutions that are central to Judaism are engaging in these kinds of tactics and all in service of atrocity upon atrocity. Like, that makes you want to question things. You need to work on your filters on Twitter. Like, keyword filtering out tweets. I know. Man, you just got all real on me. Like, here, I'm talking about porn, you know.

15:12I know. And now you got all smuggled in a real topic. Like, I was going to bitch about, like, QR codes or some shit, you know, like, for menus. Well, I, you know, I saw one of those, like, yesterday. But, you know, like, and it was only when talking about it that I realized, like, I'm really disgusted by the way the Jewish institutions in America, the way they have handled all of this is, yeah. It's not like I was involved with them in the first place. But, yeah. You've, like, resigned from the board.

15:44I've resigned from the boards, yeah. I had always kind of pre-resigned, but now making it official. All right. Do you have any more? I don't think I can offer anything after your answer, I think. Here's the apex. When the blueberries are too soft.

16:02When a little piece of toilet paper gets stuck in your butt.

16:08Well, I wasn't trying to bring the room down. Well. All right. Then let's get to our main episode. We'll never know what happened to Norman to make him, well, I guess we kind of do. We got it laid out to us explicitly.

16:24We'll be right back to talk about Psycho. You know what I think? I think that we're all in our private traps, clamped in them, and none of us can ever get out.

16:45We scratch and claw, but only at the air. Only at each other.

16:55And for all of it, we never budge an inch. Sometimes we deliberately step into those traps.

17:10I was born in mine. I don't mind it anymore.

17:14Oh, but you should. You should mind it. Oh, I do. But I say I don't. Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. This is the time of the episode where we'd like to take a moment and thank all of our listeners who get in touch with us, who communicate with us, who argue with us about AI.

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18:18So we really appreciate anyone who takes the time to go to their podcast platform and give us a review, especially Spotify and Apple Podcast. I take it are the best. We're also available on YouTube right now, but not video, just audio. If you'd like to support us in more tangible ways, the best way to do that is to go to our Patreon and become one of our beloved Patreon supporters. Took a little break from our bonus episodes because we still don't have a new series, but I can tell you this for the next bonus episode a week from today.

18:50Sticking with our Alfred Hitchcock theme, we will be releasing an episode on Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. Stone Cold classic, in my opinion. Very underrated as Hitchcock movies go. I think you can make a case for it being top three Hitchcock. So I'm excited to talk about that. Of course, we have all sorts of bonus episodes available. A lot of David Lynch stuff with me and Natasha and Jesse. David and Paul do some Star Trek stuff. Dave and I have tons of series, including The Ambulators.

19:23Deep dive into every episode of Deadwood. Really the best thing that either of us has ever done. Also, The Lotus Eaters we're quite proud of. Our series on The Odyssey, which we are now releasing for everybody every Thursday. The Reintegrators with Paul Bloom on the second season of Severance. And Noir Summer, a bunch of great classic and neo-noirs that David and I did a couple summers ago. There's so much up there, and we love putting them out as a reward for all the people who support us and keep the lights on here at Very Bad Wizards.

20:06At the $10 and up level, you'll also get access to our Brothers Karamazov series, which we're also quite proud of. Not to pat ourselves on the back too much. $20 and up, you can ask us a question every month for our monthly Ask Us Everything episodes, and we will answer you in video form for you, audio form for everybody else. This last one was a lot of fun, but just tons of other good stuff on the Patreon. So please consider that if you have a little spare cash and you'd like to support this podcast.

20:39We're so appreciative of everybody's generosity. Thank you so much. Now let's get to talking about Psycho.

Introducing Psycho

20:47All right, let's get to our main topic for today. It is Psycho. I can't believe we haven't talked about this already in 340-whatever episodes. But yeah, this is a 1998 Gus Van Sant movie starring Vince Vaughn, Anne Heche, Julianne Moore.

21:10It's right up there, in my opinion, with Spike Lee's old boy. Yeah, no, actually, I'm sure we'll cover that on a later episode.

21:20Episode 1923 when we have nothing left. We're like 90 years old.

21:25You'd be excited to make it that far, right? I would be very excited. Do you want to pledge right now, if you live to be 90, that you'll record on Gus Van Sant's site? I feel like it's a good trade, right? What was he doing? What was he doing? Not worth it for me, personally. But, you know, you could do a solo episode or old Paul Bloom. So this is actually, we're going to be doing the 1960 movie by Alfred Hitchcock, starring Anthony Perkins, Janet Leigh, Vera Miles, John Gavin, and Martin Balsam, written by Joseph Stefano.

22:03And I will say that one of the things that I was this go-around so impressed with is the screenplay. I think it's one of the best written of his movies. I think sometimes the screenplay can be a little weak, you know, given everything else going on. But I think this is a perfectly crafted and, like, really well done, like, it's both, like, so perfect in how it sets things up and also so perfect in how it misdirects you. So you're never, you always think you're worried about something and then it turns out, like, that thing is irrelevant.

22:36Just like the characters are often just on the wrong track and the wrong scent. And the screenplay just weaves that in. It weaves in all the themes perfectly, subliminally sometimes. It's just really, really great.

Masterpiece of constraints

22:48So what do you think of this movie? What's your history with it? It's like it needs no real introduction, I don't think. It doesn't. I mean, if anybody hasn't seen Psycho, like, go watch it for real.

23:01Man, this movie is so good. I agree with everything you said about the screenplay and I have a lot more good things to say about it. And this is my history with it. I have no idea when I first saw it. This is a movie that I feel like I have always seen. Like, I've always been somebody who has seen Psycho. I feel like you're born into the world with innate knowledge of Psycho. It pervades culture in such a way that even if you think you don't know, like, anything about Psycho, you probably do. I mean, the strings, the shower scene.

23:31I can't think of another movie that's more like that where you just know Psycho in your bones, even if, like, you haven't seen it. Yeah. And even as famous as it is, my experience is, whenever I watch it, it's always better than I think it is. Because I think for some reason in my head, like, early on it got associated with the genre that it spawned. And then you watch this and you're like, no, no, this is like an incredible film. And at times, like, an art film.

24:02Like, that's what's so interesting about it. It's like a movie genre. Yeah, completely, like, sets the language for horror films to come. But then it's also, like, really impressionistic at times. Totally. It just gets into, like, the use of shadows. You're just, this is like German 1930s. Yeah, the angles, like, the sideways angles of characters. Man, it feels like Hitchcock at his peak. And it really is an amazing illustration of something we and many people have talked about, which is that constraints are so good for creativity.

24:34And this is, like, a prime example of Hitchcock, in some cases, constraining himself, in some cases, being constrained by the system, doing a lot with a little in a way that made the art shine through so much. Like you said, the screenplay, like, you know, the guy was not very experienced. It was based on a book, $800,000 budget, which was nothing, obviously. And was like, I'll use my crew for my TV show. I'll do it in black and white. Yeah, and he had to do all this, like, carnival barking for it and, like, this crazy promotional stuff.

25:07And, you know, it's very hard to separate legend from fact, but I heard that he had his assistants buy up all the books. Like, he was so intent on making this a surprise. And, like, even just that Janet Leigh gets murdered or never mind that actually the mother is not alive. All of these things were a surprise to people due to his hard work in making it so. Right. Getting theaters to agree to not let people in late. And I think just, like, influential in so many ways, like, on cinema, like you said, on marketing cinema in general, not even just slasher films.

25:43Like, just the thought of, like, an indie film. Like, I guess, you know, the studio system was changing, but this is, like, right at the beginning. This is somebody showing, I can do this. Yeah. And a hugely established and, like, marketable director. You know, it's not like Eraserhead or something like that where David Lynch is scrounging money and, like, working on it in the summers when he can get a little more money. Like, it's not like that at all. Like, he had just done North by Northwest and Rear Window and Vertigo, I think, is before this.

26:17Yeah. So, these are big-budget, big-star movies, and yet he makes this kind of indie, low-budget horror movie. Yeah, like, anytime somebody does that now, like Backrooms or Obsession, like, it's, like, kind of like what he was doing. Yeah, totally. And it sort of, like, came together because having that TV show in that crew of people who were willing to work for you. And also, getting stars who were willing to work in that budget, which is something people do now, you know, I guess.

26:51But, like, just being like, yeah, these are, like, huge stars. You want to work on this shoestring budget, black and white when color's already a thing. That's the difference is, like, you know, at most, usually these indie movies has one star that wants to, like, do an art film. But you took two, like, I guess Anthony Perkins at this time would be in a lot of teen movies, and, like, he was a bit of a heartthrob kind of. Yeah, he was kind of dreamy, you know? Yeah, and then Janet Leigh, she was a real star sex symbol. And just to use them just so you could subvert the audience's expectations about, like, what kind of person is this and what happens to them is so brilliant.

27:31That's the thing about this movie that I've always known, but I'm always just newly in awe of, is the way it kind of strings you along and then completely subverts and surprises you. And, you know, it does that even when we already know what's going to happen. And, like, so, but I am jealous of people who got to see it. I know. Like, just completely fresh. Can you imagine? Because I, you know, like, I knew Janet Leigh and Anthony Perkins from Psycho, so there was not much subverting going on.

28:02And you knew, like, what the deal was. Exactly. I think it's possible when I first saw this that I didn't know about the mother, that he was the mother. Yeah. Yeah, like. I didn't know about the mother. But I don't even know of that. Like, I hope that's true. And, you know, what's also just clear is, like, you think about a low-budget movie and it comes with, you know, like, the inexperienced directors. It's like Alfred Hitchcock at his best. Yeah, no, he's. Just so amazing. He's super interesting like that because I think, like, this is, for all its, like, genre, you know, and low-budgetness, it's probably the most film scholar poured over movie of all time.

28:42Like, maybe. It's up there. It's in the top five. Yeah. But it doesn't present like that. And he doesn't present, like, some filmmaking genius, you know, like Orson Welles or Bergman or Tarkovsky, you know? Right. He's like this Looney Tunes character, practically. He has, like, a persona, this big droopy figure. He really is one of a kind that way. And yet, like, this is a work of art that, yeah, I don't think there's a movie that's been more dissected and talked about, like, in history.

29:12And, like, hands down, his most famous movie, right? I think so. Yeah. Vertigo or this, maybe. Rear Window, like, those three. Yeah. But still, I think, like, in the average mind. Yeah, that's right. Like, you know, my students will certainly know Psycho and many may have seen it, whereas nobody will have seen Vertigo and certainly not Rear Window. Yeah. Right. And imagine thinking, like, telling him before he did this, this might be literally the most influential movie or the most famous movie you ever make. Like, part of the thing that happened with Hitchcock was that Truffaut just, like, discovers him.

29:48You know, he's very influential for the French New Wave. And he, like, is a big part of saying, look, this is actually art. And then he does that interview book with him, Hitchcock Truffaut, which, like, I think kind of put in people's minds, oh, wait, this guy is actually, like, a supreme artist. And, like, I wonder if it hadn't been for Truffaut. Like, it might not have happened to the extent that he did. Absolutely. I'm 100% convinced that that's the case. Yeah. It took the Frenchies saying, like, oh, he's a genius.

30:20All right.

Freudian themes and budget

30:22So this movie, like, any general themes that pop out at you? Like, it is kind of Freudian, I would say, to some extent. It's very Freudian. Apparently, you know, Hitchcock was, like, kind of really into psychoanalysis. So, yeah, it's almost, like, hilariously, the surface reading of the movie is the Freudian depth psychology reading, where it's, like, a boy who's been ruined by a domineering mother and goes crazy. But there's so much more. Like, I mean, there is, like, the psychoanalytic stuff, for sure.

30:54But the more I thought about this movie as I was preparing for this, the more I was, like, the Marian part of the movie and, like, the relationship of somebody to the law, the moral law, and, like, her, like, her impulsive decision to go on the dark side for a moment and is, like, kind of mirrored by this guy in the second part in a way that's, like, hard to connect. But also not hard to connect. Like, there's certain scenes that seem like mirror images of them. They're mirror images, yeah. And there's, like, themes of misogyny that, like, I think are there, like violence against women that I kind of think, like, I never would think that Hitchcock would be that concerned about.

31:31But it's, like, you know, like the birds of prey that are just, like, surrounding, like, that are women and that have been stuffed and killed and helpless. You know, like, I know Hitchcock doesn't have the best reputation about how he treated actresses. But, like, this is a really strong character that he presents before he kills her for being too strong-willed and having too much agency. And sexy, really. Being sexy. But, like, she's a really complex female protagonist in, you know, in a time where you didn't see a ton of that.

32:04And, yeah, I think obviously it is about, like, how men can't fully handle that. Yeah, yeah. You know, I love that this movie, for all of the reasons that we were just talking about him going indie, that this is a movie where he has this creative freedom. Where he can, like, present, like you were saying, she's a complex character. Part of that complexity you get from the very beginning where she's a woman having essentially, like, an affair, kind of, with a man. And she feels like it's not on the up and up. But, like, she's just a person caught up in this, like, relationship with this guy.

32:37Too poor. Who won't marry her. Yeah. They're having cheap sex in a hotel. I mean, when we get into it, like, just the opening and kind of revealing that, it just kind of sets the stage. Again, it's like, that's what's so brilliant about the movie, about the screenplay. Like, every scene kind of sets the stage for what's going to happen, but also misleads you about where it's going. Yeah. Oh, man, the things you're worried about, like, at the beginning. You're like, the money. Oh, shit, the money. It just goes down in the swamp. You know, what's his name? Loomis is like, you took the money, you know.

33:09The funny thing is, Norman doesn't even know about the money. Like, he has no idea that she even had money. Every time I see this movie, for, like, a day, I'm like, do you think the money could have survived, like, if the windows were closed? You're going to be like that Korean woman or Korean-Japanese who searched for the Fargo money.

33:31You know, there's a movie about that. I don't think it really happened. But she thought Fargo was real. Yeah, I actually saw. It's you, like, going into the swamps of Northern California looking for the money.

33:43Oh, performances. I mean, Anthony Perkins. Did he win for this? He didn't get nominated for this. Oh, my God. Because it did. This movie did win something. It actually didn't win any Academy Awards. It was nominated for cinematography. That's good, because it was a fucking masterpiece of cinematography. Art direction, also good. Supporting actress, Janet Leigh, interesting. And director, he was nominated for. But no wins.

34:14The performances are so, I mean, Anthony Perkins, I know he gets a lot of praise for this. I still think it's underrated. I think the subtlety that he brings to this character. Totally agree. I think it is underrated is the right word for it, because even though it's celebrated, like, I think it's, like, hands down the best performance in any Hitchcock movie that I've seen. Like, I don't think anything else comes close. He's so good. And the way he is, like, you know, when you're first watching him, he's, like, boyish and awkward and maybe a little on the spectrum.

34:44But then also, all of a sudden, kind of creepy and menacing and then a little cocky. And he just kind of, like, moves through that in a way that you never doubt. This is that guy. This is Norman Bates. And, you know, like, that's, I think, why he got typecast for it. I know. It kind of sucks. Yeah. Yeah, and just to connect it to the Freudian grand theme, like, this boy, like, childishness that is exuding from him at times when he giggles when he's nervous, you know, you're just like, oh, yeah, this kid is trapped as a 10-year-old.

35:16Like, he doesn't know what to do. The way he eats the candy corn and... Exactly, which apparently was his idea, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes every other performance seem just like a normal... I mean, they were good. So, I would say that Janet Leigh is, I think, also awesome. It's not maybe as God-tier as Anthony Perkins. Yeah, it's A-tier. It's close between A and S-tier for now, you know, like, we're going to do... That's our language. Exactly.

35:47So, but, like, I also think Arbogast is very good. I think the guy that plays Sam Loomis is maybe, like, less good. I think Vera Miles is good, solid. It's just she's a pale reflection of Janet Leigh in it, and that's part of, like, her job is to be like that. And then I also think Pat Hitchcock is awesome. She is awesome. She is a very small Hitchcock star. Yeah, Hitchcock's daughter is like, hey, she's flirting with you. He must have noticed my wedding ring.

36:17And the drunk old sleazy rich guy is like, he plays that part really well, you know. Yeah, yeah. The cop, apparently he's that character in a lot of movies, but a great one. The score is, you know, legendary. Like, how many good things can you say about that score? Also, a product of, I think, constraint, where he really wanted to pay Bernard Herrmann, like, good money, but he just didn't have that much. So, Herrmann was like, all right, I just won't do full orchestration. I'll just do strings. And, like, born of that, we get, like, the fucking legendary.

36:49Yeah, that was another thing I was kind of tuning into this time, is the score at, like, not just the, eh, eh, eh, na, na, na, na, na, na. It's really subtle, and it's really good, and then it's really interesting when there's no score. Yeah, it's actually, like, bad that we've gone this long. We haven't mentioned the score.

37:19I'm very glad that you brought it up, because I think it's, yeah, it's part of the iconic nature of the movie. Yeah, absolutely. The tension building, you know, what Hitchcock was a master of, like, was just, this is just, like, such a holistic blending of everything coming together to make this, these, like, tense scenes so perfect. It does seem like he had perfectly figured out how to get the audience to feel what he wanted them to feel at that point, you know, like a conductor of our feelings.

37:49That's right. And that's why I think him doing it at that stage in his career is crucial, you know? It's, like, somebody who's so good at doing it that, like, it's maybe second nature to him, so he didn't need a huge budget. It's also his biggest hit, like, it made him rich. Like, you know, I think he had to mortgage his house to make this. It really is funny, like, what you said earlier, like, it has a lot of the indie qualities of a movie, and yet this is a guy who's been working in Hollywood for 30 years at this point.

38:22All right, should we get into it? Yeah. All right.

Theft and paranoia

38:25So, Saul Bass, another person we haven't mentioned, and whose role is hotly debated. We can maybe get into that when we get to the shower scene. But, like, he definitely did the titles, and they're good. You know, I don't think it's, like, the best Saul Bass titles, but they're very good. No budget. It's telling you right in the title card that there's, you know, it's, like, slicing through the letters, and it's, like, the top half and the bottom half. It's, like, cutting the end in half. Everything is just subliminally planting in you, kind of, what's going to happen.

38:59Yeah. And it says Phoenix, Arizona, 2.43, something like that, PM. And you just get this establishing shot where you think it's going to be, like, oh, that's a normal establishing shot. Hitchcock does this all the time. And then, like, it cuts to some room, and people are talking. You just want to know where they are. But, like, this time it just kind of floats and then goes into the windows and the blinds, and it, like, peeks through. So it just makes us, like, peeping Toms. And it goes in, and, you know, you want to see something.

39:32And at first you see just a dude with his shirt off. But you know Janet Leigh's in the movie. And then you see Janet Leigh in a nice white bra. She's hot. She's hot, yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do you think of Janet Leigh? I mean, I, yeah, I'm like Norman Bates.

39:54I'm a little struck by her. You're looking through the people at her taking a shower. Yeah, I'm like. Yeah, you know, she's very sexy in this. Like, do you remember we talked recently about her in a movie, A Touch of Evil, for our noir summer series? It's on Patreon. I feel like there she's, like, I think these are kind of roughly around the same time. And they're very similar movies. I think we talked about that at the time in terms of, like, she's in danger. But there's something about her in this where she's just a little sexier.

40:26She's a little hotter. I don't like the guy. Like, I'm not into the guy. A bit of a dud. Exactly. She could do better. And she's, like, telling him as much, but jokingly, you know. But I'm okay with that because I think that, like, it's on theme that sometimes very competent, strong, like, great women get sucked into relationships with guys that just don't deserve them. That's film language. That's a trope. Yeah, exactly. And so I kind of believe that she's being a little bit, like, poor judgment here.

40:58And also, like, I don't want to marry you because I'm too poor. There is something that is a little emasculating even though he's having sex with her. There is something about his position. And I think maybe she thinks, like, money will cure unhappiness. Maybe kind of not only put them in a position where they can comfortably marry, but also get this guy his balls back that was taken to him by his ex-wife. And, like, just this poor financial situation that he's in. Yeah, he's, like, paying off his dad's debts and his alimony.

41:31He's like, maybe my ex-wife will marry somebody else and then I can stop paying alimony. Oh, Sam, let's get married. Yeah. Live with me in a storeroom behind a hardware store in Fairvale. We'll have lots of laughs. Tell you what, when I send my ex-wife her alimony, you can lick the stamps. I'll lick the stamps. There's a very meaningful exchange about, like, she says, I don't want to meet in these hotel rooms. I want you to, next time, like, we'll have dinner with my sister and it's respectable. We can even have dinner, but respectably.

42:04In my house with my mother's picture on the mantle and my sister helping me broil a big steak for three.

42:11And after the steak, will we send sister to the movies, turn mama's picture to the wall? Sam. And also, planting in our mind, a mother watches over you from above, you know, and then, like, judges you so you have to turn her face away. Like, I don't totally get why he doesn't want to marry her, but I don't think it's important. I guess it's just, I don't want you to see me like this or something. Yeah, like, I think the importance is that she thinks that she can save the situation. Like, that's the thing that motivates that impulse that she then regrets.

42:45Then we get the Hitchcock cameo just out of the way early, you know, so people don't have to be looking out for that. It's kind of amazing that he was already that famous that everyone's like, oh, I got to see, I got to do the Hitchcock cameo. Then she goes to the office, kind of a late lunch, and, yeah, her co-office worker is played by Hitchcock's daughter, Pat Hitchcock, and she's hilarious in this, I think. She's really good. I didn't know until this time around that that was Hitchcock's daughter.

43:18She looks a little... And it's very funny, like, another mother mentioned, right? She says, oh, like, you have a headache? Take these. Wow, she's just giving out pills? Like, she's great. But she says, my mother gave me these, and then, like, they were tranquilizers for her wedding night. And then, yeah, and then she's like, did anybody call? She's like, well, Teddy called, and my mother called to see if Teddy called. You know, also kind of reminding Janet Leigh that she's not married. That's part of this, you know, seeding in her mind.

43:49Yeah, then the drunk, old, rich sleaze comes in. And I guess he's buying a house with $40,000 cash for his 18-year-old daughter who's getting married. But meanwhile, he's, like, hitting on Janet Leigh. And in the process, like, again, every seed is planted, right? Like, when he says, you know what I do about unhappiness? I buy it off. What do you make of the, like, it doesn't buy happiness. It just buys off unhappiness, he says.

44:21Like, you don't buy happiness. Like, I get what he's saying. Like, keep people off your back, which really matches what Loomis is going through. Which is, like, okay, money's not going to make you happy. But it can at least keep the shit at bay. And then you can pursue your happiness. Yeah, it can, like, remove the stress. Like, it's actually kind of a wise thing, actually. I think it can buy off a bit of unhappiness. But it's, yeah, it's much worse at buying you actual happiness. Because that involves things that money can't buy.

44:52Where he's wrong is when he says you can't buy off unhappiness with pills. He doesn't say that. She says that. Oh, yeah. She says that. So wrong. I think that's why she has to die. Because she said something so false.

45:06That's how I read that. So does she make the decision? Do you think she's making the decision there? I don't know. Like... I'm trying to calculate where her little fall from, you know, mini fall from grace is here. And I think that she goes through a bit of a slippery slope in this whole situation where he has the cash and he says explicitly, I never carry more than I can afford to lose. Yeah. And he also says he doesn't declare it. Like, because Pat Hitchcock says, I declare. And he just says directly to Janet Leigh, I don't.

45:38That's how I have all this money. So it's already kind of stolen money to begin with. Yeah. And him being sleazy, like, makes her, you know, like, he kind of deserves it. Like, all these things are happening. And actually, only as I'm talking about it now, in a really nice way, like, credit to the screenplay, all of these, like, things are going on that you could feel would be a situational force to turn somebody, you know, to the dark side temporarily. And also, like, making us completely on her side because we're seeing it, you know, like, we're, like, this guy, fuck this guy, like, she should take his money.

46:12It's, like, more just for her to take his money. That's right. And then when we see her in her hotel room, packing up a suitcase, money sitting on the bed, now she's in the black underwear. Like, she's, like, she's turned to the dark side. She's in the black bra now. We saw her in a white bra. We see her in a black bra. Yeah. One thing I wanted to say before we leave the scene, but when she goes into the office to say she's going to take the money and then go home from there, there's a shot of a painting behind her where five men are just looking directly at her in that painting.

46:45And so it's this other thing where she's constantly going to be watched from this point on in the movie. And, like, you see that perfectly in that shot of the painting and her in the office. That's cool. Yeah, it's very cool. The male gaze. Yeah, and that is, like, basically the next, until she dies, she's being watched from now on. Yeah. And the music starts here, like, the score here, it's a little eerier than it should be, given that you're completely on her side for stealing this money.

47:17There's something about it that makes you feel more uneasy. And I think, like, this is where the stress starts. It's like, all of a sudden, from now on, she's going to have very rarely, like, a non-anxious moment, a guilt-ridden and regretful moment, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just with the theme of guilt, you know, I think that there is something, the mirror image of the two sides are, like, they're different kinds of guilt that, like, they're being put

47:49through one feels like the father guilt, like the internal, like, what Freud really did think of as internalizing the father, as internalizing authority and norms. And here she is, like, flouting that. Like, she has decided to do something that goes so against society and is feeling the pressure and the guilt of violating that. And then later on, it's like this weird kind of internalized maternal guilt that's, like, fucking with Norman. But both of them are going through some guilt syndrome.

48:21So you think with Marion, it's more like superego, like, authority kind of norms guilt? Like, that's what it feels like to me. Like, the thing that us normal people might feel when we do something really wrong or, like, illegal. Yeah. And we see the mirror, like, there's almost no shots in this movie without mirrors. But, like, when we see her reflection, that's a signal. Okay, now we are with the more darker id, impulsive desire satisfying side of her. And, yeah.

48:51And, like, this next sequence might be my favorite in the movie. Just between now and her getting to the Gates Motel is so stressful. And we're stressed for all the wrong reasons. We're stressed because we think someone's going to catch her with the money. And she thinks that. And that guilt is oppressing her. And here's where everything, like, the fading, the music, the black and white photography, it's all just, you know, starting with seeing her boss at the crosswalk. Like, it's like, everyone is watching me right now.

49:23Everyone knows that I'm guilty. Like, it conveys that feeling so perfectly, I think. By the way, her boss crossing the street and seeing her in the car, like, Tarantino must have just stolen that for Pulp Fiction. And where it's like, move the fuck. Totally, you're right. Like, I knew I kind of recognized that, but I never made that connection. I think you're totally right, yeah. But, like, you know, like, now everybody's watching her. Like, if she can't even just get out of Phoenix without, like, her boss seeing her, of course she's going to think that everybody is on to her.

49:54Like, I think this plays out so well with the cop at the dealership. Yeah, the dealership is incredible. Like, the cop scene before that when she's sleeping in her car. Yeah. His face, that shot, like, there's a lot of shots in this movie that I feel like could become posters. And that shot of the cop with his sunglasses on, taking up the entire frame somehow. You know, one of the things that I learned about this movie is that he was shooting on a 50mm lens for most of the movie, which is right around, like, how we see normal life.

50:26You know, not, like, wide. There's no, like, distortion from the wide lenses or anything like that. So, when he takes up the whole frame, like, his face in the window, I get nervous, man. Like, I'm like, this is just too much authority in my face. And I read someone or heard someone saying that, like, when they play this for their students, if they play the audio, the cop sounds like he's being, like, just normal. He's being just like, are you okay? You know, like, kind of just checking in on her. But when you play the audio and show his face, all of a sudden it's like, no, he's super threatening.

51:01Because that's, we're seeing it from her perspective. And we've internalized her, like, situation like it's our situation. Like, we definitely don't want her to get caught by the cop at this point. And it just seems like, yeah, you can't see his eyes. It's not exactly mirrored, but it's kind of mirrored. But, like, it's just dark. It's just a void. And we all have had that feeling. Like, that feeling of when you're guilty, it's like an accompanying paranoia that comes with it. And it's a snowball effect or this, like, you know, like, reinforcing thing where if you're paranoid,

51:35you start acting a little weird, which makes people look at you a little funny, which makes you more paranoid. And that's exactly what happens in this scene with the dealership. It culminates in that it's so good when she's pulling out finally and you're, like, kind of relieved for her. And then the car pulls up and you hear, hey! And she freezes. It's just because she forgot her fucking suitcase, you know? And the cop has come over at that point. And they're just kind of looking at her. Like, at that point, it's not, this is where it becomes more impressionistic, I think.

52:05They're like zombies. They're just, like, these watching things. They're not even really talking. It's not clear what the cop is doing there. If he wasn't going to detain her, why is he there? Yeah. When he's watching her from across the street at the dealer, it's, like, so nerve-wracking. But then he gets in the car and you're like, oh, thank God he's leaving. Maybe he got a call that he has to go. But then he just crosses the street with his car, parks there, and just kind of gets out. And both him and the dealer are looking at her and it's like, are they going to do anything?

52:37No. Like, that's the last we hear of either of them. It's just that feeling of, like, fuck, fuck. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Now we're getting, like, I agree with you. This is such a great, like, until she gets to the Bates Motel. It's so good. Like, the tension is so good. So here's what I want to ask you. Well, I guess two things. One, like, how subjective is the point of view that we're getting? Like, that cop looming so large does seem like you were saying, like, from her perspective,

53:07like the fear of a cop being in your window. Maybe it's just, like, distorted and we're seeing her perspective. And then as she's driving, her paranoia is presented to us as her thoughts, thinking about what people are saying about her. Yeah. Starting with those two that she just saw kind of watching her as she left. So, like, I remember thinking, are we supposed to think that we're hearing what they're really saying? No. But she's reacting to the thoughts of what they might, like, she's just making up them saying all that stuff.

53:39That's how I always read it, right? Because at one point it's like, it's Monday morning, like Pat Hitchcock says. They literally say that's something that's in the future. And I think that's why it's so good, you know, when she imagines Cassidy, the rich drunk guy, finding out about it. And it was, like, saying, and she was, she tricked me. She was flirting with me. And she gets that kind of semi-demented smile. Yeah. That smile. Oh, it's so good. Yeah. The grin. And that grin says a lot.

54:09Like, she's just accepted at this point that, like, she's getting away with it. And she kind of likes that she's, like, been this bad person. But at the same time, we feel that way, too. Like, fuck that guy. So, like, that demented smile that she has is also, like, our smile. Because we're just totally with her. And that's what's so great. Like, Hitchcock does this so well. Like, he gets us on her side. And, you know, some of that stuff could have been from her perspective, too. Like, maybe the guy wasn't that lecherous, you know?

54:40Like, but whereas if you think we're taking this completely from her perspective, then, you know, there's reason maybe to question, you know, how justified it seemed up till now. Yeah. The rain as, like, adding tension is insane. We've all been in, like, those severe rainstorms where visibility just completely cuts out. And they're showing that and she's driving. And you're just like, fucking stop, dude. Like, you cannot be driving in this.

55:11You're like, should I pull over? Like, you have that moment where you're just like, wait. No, this is serious. I got to pull over, right? Because you can, like, see two feet in front of you. Yeah. And the wipers are doing that thing, which it actually does in these things, is your wipers are just going insane. But it also is very much like a stabbing, you know, in the shower. It's foreshadowing the shower. Yeah. The blades. The wiper blades, Tamler. The wiper blades.

Arrival at the Bates Motel

55:35Yeah.

Arrival at the Bates Motel

55:36And then, like, it's completely, like, no visibility until just suddenly there's a clearing and it's Bates Motel. Bates Motel. Have you been on the Universal Studios tour? No. Have you? Oh, so many times. Before I ever saw the movie. Yeah. This is how I learned about that. And to see that house, even when I had never seen the movie, it's seared in me. Like, that house. And it's, like, built, I don't know what the scale is, you know, like two-thirds or something. You know, it's like they're using tricks to make it seem more distant when it's closer.

56:08So it's a smaller build. And it's only a facade. Oh, really? I thought you could go into it, but there was nothing in it. No, no. You only see it from afar. And the little tram goes by the motel part. And you see it up on the hill. And it's literally now just three sides. During the movie, it was only two sides, the two sides that we see. And then they built in the sets, like, they built the, like, actual. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the staircase leading up to it and how it's kind of steep it is. Apparently, based on an Edward Hopper painting, did you see this?

56:38Of a house that was by, like, kind of abandoned railroad tracks. And it was just there by itself, by it. And also, like, in the Truffaut interview, which I read, he said, this is just like a normal house in Northern California. We call it California Gothic or, in particularly hideous cases, California gingerbread.

57:03That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. But that house has a personality of its own. Like, from afar. You know, like, all this stuff is so perfectly pulled off. Yeah. So, he comes down. I like that he starts the first, one of the first things he says, it's a dirty night. Yeah. Like, dirty, you know? Uh-huh. When he picks her up or, like, when he gets her into the hotel when it's raining outside, he's holding an umbrella but not using it. It's like, so it just shows something is off with him already.

57:34Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so they have their conversation. He asks where she's from and she puts her wrong name down. She says, Los Angeles, just looking at the newspaper that she bought. Yeah. And he's about to maybe pick key number three and then he switches to room number one when she says that. So, like, just like she made the choice with the money, he's making the choice. Oh, I could put her where I can't, like, spy her and then kill her.

58:05Yeah. Regular room or murder room? And I wonder if there's something about the fact that she said Los Angeles that made him do that. Like, oh, she's already kind of full of sin or something like that. What are you saying about Southern California? No, but, like, maybe that's how you think if you're in this town that they're in, like, you know, from the big city. Like, and he's already clearly attracted to her. In a way that, like, mirrors this guy is so sleazy. He's already so rich. He won't miss this money.

58:36And he's a tax cheat anyway. You know, like, she's a whore from Hollywood. Yeah, no, totally. Like, the Ed Gein, like, all women are harlots, like, that kind of voice in his head. Exactly. So, yeah, like, I mean, I don't know how to talk about this scene. It's so significant at every level. But this is, you know, one thing I would say is Anthony Perkins is just so perfect. Like, he seems sweet and awkward and you feel bad for him. But then you're also like, wait, is he totally creepy and is he trying to rape her or, you know,

59:10so you're not ruling that out either. He plays it so well. He's just charming. He has this boyish charm. And he's, like, being really nice to her. And then he's just surrounded by these, like, birds of prey that have been stuffed and that are, like, threatening. Yeah. You're being torn. Like, wait, what is this guy? Yeah. Any line can be sweet or just a little weird in an endearing way. Or it could be, like, this person's a psycho. So here's my question. And right before they go into the bird room, he invites her up to the house, right?

59:44And he says, I'll come back to take you with my trusty umbrella, you know? And it's, like, that's where he's, like, his most boyish. Like, he's an eighth grader taking, like, a girl to the school dance or something. Would you have dinner with me? I was just about to myself. You know, nothing special, just sandwiches and milk. But I'd like it very much if you'd come up to the house. I don't set a fancy table, but the kitchen's awful homey.

1:00:10I'd like to. All right, yeah. You get yourself settled and take off your wet shoes, and I'll be back as soon as it's ready. Okay. With my trusty umbrella. So then he goes up, and, you know, they have that scene with the mother where she yells at him that she hears so clearly and so loud from her hotel room. No, I tell you, no, I won't have you bringing strange young girls in for supper by candlelight, I suppose, in the cheap, erotic fashion of young men with cheap, erotic minds.

1:00:45Mother, please. Why can we hear that so clearly? But also, why did he invite her to the house? Like, is he already thinking he's going to stage that play with the mother, and he's already setting his trap? Does he already know he's going to kill her? Or does he actually think maybe she could come up to the house until he inhabits the mother? This is where I don't know what's going on in his head. When he invites her to the house, like, I don't know how to read that.

1:01:15And I honestly, like, how do you read that? So I read it as it really is Norman bringing home a friend. And I think when he's Norman, he really is Norman. And at times, his mother's voice, he might hear in his head. But, like, I think it really is the case that he was innocently trying to just make a friend. And when he gets up to the house, whatever cues that mother personality to kick in was like, how dare you bring this strange woman into the house?

1:01:49And so he's like, maybe just dinner in my parlor. Okay. So you take that at full face value. At face value. Yeah. But, like, that's... I think that's the... I think I agree. You know. Yeah. And even with the, like, choosing room one, I think he's still low-level Norman pervy where he's like, I can see her shower. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So not to kill her, but just to look at her in the shower. Yeah. And, you know, I think given what the psychiatrist says, like, in my reading of what's going on, is that what must happen is that when he starts getting dangerously, like, you know, lustful thoughts in his head, the mother kicks in.

1:02:29So, like, he's not yet there, but, like, for sure, once he, like, is thinking about bringing her to the house and everything that might go along with bringing her into the house, then the mother kicks in because he's had an impure thought. And once those, like, impure thoughts, the guilt is so strong that just full-on mother is taking over. Yeah. So when he gets, like, a chubby, like, his mother... Exactly. Yeah. His mother's like, how dare you? Like, I know you want this whore. Yeah, no, I think that's definitely one way to read it.

1:03:03And I have questions about, like, then what's going on at the end. But, yeah, like, get as a reading in terms of he is at this point, when he's apologizing for his mother or wishing he could, like, he's being somewhat sincere there. Yeah, and he plays it so sincere that I'm just like, I want to believe it. Yeah, and disarms her to the point where she wants to invite him in her room and he says no and then takes her to the stuffed bird room, which is so, like, that owl is going to be in my nightmares.

1:03:35Like, the way a lot of the shots are framed, it's, like, staring right at you. It's like, I heard some podcasts where, like, an owl came down and ripped out a person's scalp and, like, everyone thought it was, like, this murder or an alien attack or whatever, but it was later shown to be, like, this owl just scalped this person. Oh, my God. Like, that's what that owl looks like it's going to do. And it's staring right at you, you know? Yeah, it's so good. And, like, the camera placement as this scene develops is so good.

1:04:06You know, one of the things you hear about Hitchcock or whatever, like, I hear from analysis of his films is he doesn't favor dialogue. He's, like, very into just showing, not telling, kind of. Dialogue is a last resort for him. Yeah, exactly. And so there's not a lot of dialogue. And this one, you're, like, oh, but there's a lot of dialogue. This is the longest continuous dialogue in the movie. But what he's doing, what he's showing you is still so important. Like, the way that he's, like, at times presenting Norman as, like, vulnerable and kind and then at times presenting really threatening and, you know, he is right underneath that big owl attacking.

1:04:48You know, it's stuffed in the attack pose sometimes. Sometimes, and then sometimes he's next to just, like, a, you know, like a little perched bird. Bird, yeah. No, totally. And he's sometimes shot more from above, making him look smaller and sometimes, like, looks really big. And that is done, you know, to great effect, I think, throughout the movie. And then his performance of being set off by, like, the slight things that she says and, like, almost losing it but pulling it right back, you know. I feel like that's a template for performances that I've seen later on.

1:05:21Yeah, right. It's, like, I'm menacing but then I soothe you somehow. But you're not totally soothed but, like. Oh, I didn't mean to go crazy there for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also love, like, just in terms of the endearing awkwardness but also just a kind of, like, almost Lynchian weirdness. He says to her, you eat like a bird. And Janet Leigh is like, well, I guess you know. And he goes, no, not really. So it's, like, a little banter for three lines and then it just ends with a thud.

1:05:53And she's like, oh, like, I thought with all these fucking birds around you. I just stuffed them. I don't really know about birds. Yeah, and then I think that just one of my favorite lines in cinema history is when she says, do you go out with friends sometimes? And also the way he delivers this, it's like, a boy's best friend is his mother. Like, it's just. So good. Do you go out with friends?

1:06:20Well, a boy's best friend is his mother. And it's like, he says it as if, okay, I figured out the way to answer this question. And it's just, it's one of the great, like, it's so funny. So she's eating with him in a way that feels very, like, she's eating sandwiches and she didn't eat the sandwiches in the hotel room with her lover. And there's something happening here, right? It feels meaningful to me that she's letting, like, here's a guy who's, like, trying to actually be good to her, like, be gentlemanly in a way that her man really kind of wasn't.

1:06:59And I feel like herself letting herself be vulnerable by eating his food. And him being vulnerable also, like, because this guy's like, I'm too, like, I can't marry you right now. Like, not when I'm swimming in debt. But, like, this guy's just willing to be vulnerable. Yeah. And I think her performance here is really good, too. You can see where she's kind of charmed by him and when she feels comfortable. And then when she feels like, wait, what the fuck? And then, like, when he says the thing about, like, we're all in our private traps, we're clamped in them and none of us can get out, we scratch and claw.

1:07:35Like, there's another thing that's happening there where she's thinking, oh, I'm in a trap. Like, I trapped myself by taking the money. And you can already see it in her face there. Like, I need to turn back. And it's interesting that the conversation with him did that to her. Like, to the point where, like, I think she's probably kind of grateful, like, he's a weird guy. But, like, you know, this snapped me into, like, to my senses. It is a good, I don't know how true it is, but it is a really, like, deep thing for Norman to be saying.

1:08:07About the traps, yeah. Like, and then that he was born in his trap. Yeah. But he doesn't mind it. And she says, well, you should. And he says, well, I do. I just say I don't. I love that. Yeah, like, he speaks for all of us then, you know, like. Of the traps that we're in, you know, like. Yeah. But I don't mind it. Like, we're all in our traps. But I do.

1:08:31Apparently, Anthony Perkins, you know, was on record as saying, like, he had a very domineering mother growing up. And he was, like, closeted gay at this point. Yeah. It's like, it sounds like it was very similar. Like, the situation. Like, his dad died. And he kind of felt guilty because he kind of wished him he was dead so he could be with his mother. Like, I thought, is that shtick? It sounds so on the nose. I know. It sounds like what the studio would make you say. Yeah. It's great. A son is a poor substitute for a lover.

1:09:02One of the girls. Again, it's, like, just, like, that line. And now she's, like, you know, completely freaked out. But then she still feels bad. And then that's where she says, put her someplace. And then he gets a switch, flips. And, like, I guess, is he the mother when he's talking right now? I don't know. Like, it sounds like it could be the mother right there. Yeah. In that moment. And then, like, when he clicks, switches back. Because, like, it's weird. Because the psychiatrist at the end will say, like, you know, toward the end he was more the mother than Norman.

1:09:35Like, whatever Norman was was kind of a shell of Norman. But then I also got the sense of, like, him describing the madhouse. He might have spent some time there. That's how I read it. Like, it gets very personal to him. But I don't know. Like, maybe that's not true. Maybe the mother spent some time in a madhouse. But the way he talks about it, like, you get the sense he's witnessed it. And then there's just a bunch of lines, like, when he says, like, I don't hate her. I hate what she's become. Where you feel like he's talking about himself as himself.

1:10:07But using her as this kind of projection. This, like, voodoo doll that he can stab when really it's him that he's upset with. Which I kind of like that reading more. That's not that, like, all of a sudden she's possessing him. But that, like, he is really kind of conflicted about this. Like, he is giving in to her. And he still feels like he could not give in to her. Or at least he once felt like he could not give in to her. Yeah. There's almost no answer there, I feel. You know?

1:10:37It's all in his performance. It's just all, like, it is, like, what is presented to us. It's some mingling of all of these things that you're saying. Like, is it, like, a multiple personality thing, like, strictly where it, like, snaps back and forth? But no. Like, I think it's, like, I imagine that he, without having, like, the personality of his mother. Like, without having, like, the weird multiple personalities. He would still be super fucked up. Like, he could still have his mom as a thing. He could still have thoughts that his mom is, like, you know, judging him and condemning him.

1:11:08So, like, I think that's just also all going on even when he's Norman, you know? Yeah, I agree. And I think that's probably the way we have to look at it. Because ultimately it is him. Yeah. And he has always had her personality entangled with him. Whether, you know, he's doing her voice or not. Like, that conscience is in his head. Norman! Okay, so, I like when she gets up to go to bed. She's like, enough of this. Like, she turns and she's like, I'm going to go, like, I've got to get out of this conversation.

1:11:42And then she looked, he looks so small. This is a great example of that. Like, he looks like a little tiny kid. And she looks like the mother at that point. Like, just so big, kind of lording over him. And then she goes in. And the other reason is she's made the decision to go back now. And she, like, we see that. And this is where he does his little Peeping Tom thing. Did you see that the painting that he moves? I don't know if you, like, looked up what the painting was. But it's, like, Susanna and the elders, I think is the name of it.

1:12:13But it's just about, like, old men trying to, like, check out a woman as she's bathing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually saw something where it was, like, there's a bunch of variations of that picture that you see. And some of them are a lot more, like, they're kind of attacking her. And other ones are just, like, they're watching her. Like, he just sprinkles all this stuff all over the movie. So when he looks at her, he doesn't think he's going to kill her then, right? I don't think so. So my reading, again, I guess is just the straight, like, the face value where he's getting off.

1:12:48Like, he's super excited to see her. And he gets the chubby and he goes back home. And that's when the mother takes over. But, but. When he looks at her name in the register and knows she lied about her name, he seems there to be, like, not innocent little kid. I'm excited. Like, there's something about that that seems to give him a justification for something. Maybe it's just looking at her through the people. But I don't know. Yeah. I don't know either. One thing, when you were saying how she looms large in that scene and then this.

1:13:23Like, I just wanted to, like, make a note about his, his physical performance is really good in that. Like, he can be, he can seem small and he can seem big. And the guy was 6'2". Yeah. Like, he was a tall guy so that, that he can make himself seem, like, small and weak, you know. And sometimes freakishly tall, like when Arbogast pulls up, like, and he's on the thing. He looks like some circus stretch freak or something like that. Yeah. Is he right outside the house there? That's outside the hotel when Arbogast pulls up.

1:13:55Arbogast. And, you know, he's standing there. Arbogast. Love that guy.

The shower scene

1:13:59So, he goes up, shower scene. I don't know. Like, what can we say about the shower scene? What can we say? You know, one thing that I just never hear people talk about is that she's getting in the shower. Obviously, it's night and people shower. But, like, this is her cleansing. This is her baptism. This is her moment of purity, you know. And this is, like. Because she's made the decision. Yeah. So, she's freed in that moment. She's freed herself from, like, this guilt. Yeah. And, in fact, I think the symbol of her doing that is, you know, like, I've calculated the money.

1:14:30I know what I can give back. And she flushes it down the toilet, which makes cinema history, by the way. Because that's never happened before. Yeah, first toilet. Like, first toilet flush. That's so crazy. And, apparently, like, the screenwriter was adamant about keeping that in. That's amazing. But we later find out that it never fully went down. So, it's like, we think she's cleansed the sin and she's having her baptism. But, like, it didn't take, you know. It didn't go all the way down.

1:15:00And so, yeah. But, yeah. We could do a whole episode on just the shower scene, I'm sure. Just, like, as a cinema scene. It was going to be silent. Like, did you hear that? Yeah. Like, he wasn't going to. Yeah. And he wasn't satisfied. Which, what a good call. And, like, yeah. Apparently, he just gave, like, almost doubled Bernard Herrmann's salary when he saw how it played. Totally. And, yeah. Like, so, let's just. You can watch 50 videos on the shower scene that will do more justice to it than we can here.

1:15:31Totally. But I will say. The fast cuts. The cuts are so good. The cuts and the stabbing and the way the chocolate syrup going down the drain. Yeah. The ability to devise some way to film shower water coming down onto the lens. Yeah. Yeah. It really, really is incredible. I'll also say that even though, you know, like, if you're our age or younger, there's no way you didn't know that she was going to get killed in the shower. But I still feel the weight of Janet Leigh's death, you know?

1:16:04Like, it's like, holy shit. Like, first of all, because she's been a very compelling character. And we are, I think, attracted to her. And to have her die like that. And also, even though I, like, people will do this all the time now, I still feel like I get a little bit of that. I can't believe they killed Janet Leigh 40 minutes into the movie. Like, I still get that feeling, you know? Absolutely. I was going to say the same thing. And it's because it doesn't matter how many times you watch it, you're pulled into her story so well that, like, it's always going to be like a, wait, what?

1:16:39That's it? And it just presents well, like, the indignity of any death where it's just like, oh, their story is just done. Like, that's just what death is. Like, oh, okay. Like, they're done. All of the things that you cared about, like, don't matter anymore. They're just all over. The cop, the dealer, like, yeah, her boss doesn't matter. The fucking money is now in just, like, wrapped in that L.A. Tribune. Yep. It just doesn't matter. So then you get this long cleanup scene. And that just seamlessly switches from her perspective to his perspective.

1:17:12Now we are with him as he's doing all this cleaning. And it's so brilliant the way, okay, now, like, we've been passed off to this guy now. And, you know, like, famously when he takes the car finally, he's done with the cleanup and it goes into the swamp and then it goes down and he's kind of nervous, eating the candy, watching it go down. And we're, like, right there. Like, we want the car to go down. And then when it stops, we're like, oh, shit. You know, even though we were just so on Janet Lee's side, now all of a sudden we want the car to go down.

1:17:46Incredible. Yeah. Like you said, seamless. Because in that moment when the car isn't going down, like, I'm sorry, you just feel it. You're just like, and his performance there is just like his turning around and looking. It's just so natural. It's so well done. And you're like, oh, shit. And he's kind of praying, you know, he's got his hands together and kind of a praying thing. And I think, like, why do we want that car to go down, you know, because it's weird. I think it's because we just watched him do all this fucking work, you know, like, he really takes us through the cleanup.

1:18:21And it's like, we didn't just watch all that and now the car won't go down or something like that. Like, I think that's one of the ways he gets us to walk. I think you're right. Like, you know, like, that has to lead to something, you know? Yeah. I think that's totally right. Like, I never thought about that. But that is, that for sure gets me. Like, you're kind of satisfied at, like, all the cleanup, you know? Yeah. And it's weird because it is so fast because that amazing shot of the drain swirling, you know, the chocolate sauce and then her eye.

1:18:53And that's when, like, it hits the hardest to me that her story is over is in, like, her lifeless eyes and then just the cleanup. Like, it's just, boom, like, okay. Yeah. So then we go to a hardware store, which is Sam Loomis's, where he works. And a weird scene with the woman, it feels like it's significant, you know? Yeah. But you don't know why. Yeah. Yeah. That, like, insect killer should be painless. Like, it should always be painless. It doesn't say on the can whether or not it's painless.

1:19:24Yeah. And it's just weird and it's also just a little, like, agitating. Like, why are we here? And then we see Lila, played by Vera Miles, the kind of bee person. I would think, like, the shadow. Or not the shadow, but, like, a paler reflection of her sister. She is the shadow on the cave. She's the... Yeah. Yeah, right. It's funny. They show Arbogast, who we later find out is a private investigator, chasing Marion to get the $40,000. He's watching both of them in the background and we see that. So, it's another thing that everybody's watching.

1:19:57And then Arbogast comes in and they convince him that they're not part of this, you know, I think. Yeah. And I think he's, like, him watching the way that they're talking to each other probably convinces him fairly early on, even though he has to, like, play the role of detective. I really love the way that Lila responds to him when he's like, I might believe you. Yeah. And she's like, I don't care whether you believe me or not, which is exactly what I'm feeling at that moment. Like, who are you? Like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I'm looking for my sister. Right. The presumption of, like, you must be so relieved that I believe some private investigator that has nothing to do with you.

1:20:31It's not like the cops or something. So, they kind of, he says he's going to go look for, and he goes to all the hotels. Yeah, a little montage. Until he gets to the Bates Hotel. It's funny, like, I feel like it's obvious that you don't stop at the Bates Motel, or you, at the very least, if you are, you're going to be careful. But I guess that's, you only know that if you've seen Psycho. He starts out cocky. He starts out kind of cocky, you know, and like, even the way it's filmed, Arbogast looks like a midget or a little person.

1:21:03And he looks so tall, just the angle, but then that slowly kind of, it gets closer. And he starts out acting pretty sure of himself. Yeah. And then, like you said, yeah, he gets kind of nervous the more Arbogast is talking to him. And this is where I think, like, in my notes, I was like, his little mumbliness, like, that whole thing has just done so well. Yeah. It's like, when he says at first that he's going to change the sheets in all the rooms, which he does once a week, like, he's like, I hate the smell of dampness, don't you?

1:21:35It's a, I don't know, it's a creepy smell. He's like, and then, and then he, yeah, he's literally starts stuttering and it seems like he's some part of his childhood is coming out of him. Right. But then he's like, come on, you want to join me? Like, help me change the sheets. Like, pretty confident. He's very childlike, I think. Absolutely. Throughout. Like, he uses words wrong. Like, I think in this scene he says mental picture. Picturization. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Even when he says falsity, I think, like, that's a word, but you know that it's like, he doesn't know that's a word. And also, it's not a word for that.

1:22:07Yeah. I was trying to think, what is the word for that? It's not a falsity.

The investigation and basement

1:22:12This is an interesting scene where he starts, Arbogast, who's clearly picked up that he's involved somehow, but he thinks, like, they're all wrong. They're all being misdirected in the same way we were. Like, he says, like, that you're gallantly protecting her. You wouldn't be fooled. You'd know how she was using you, wouldn't you? And he says, I'm not a fool. I'm not capable of being fooled. Not even by a woman. But I'm not a fool. And I'm not capable of being fooled. And I'm not even by a woman. Well, this is not a slur on your manhood.

1:22:43I'm sorry. Let's put it this way. She might have fooled me, but she didn't fool my mother.

1:22:50Another one of those lines. I know. Yeah. I love, though, this stretch of the investigation where they're all so wrong about what happened because they can't see past the $40,000. Like, the crime that's been committed, like, looms large. For normal people who care about money, like, this is the mystery. Yeah. And they just have no idea what's at the underbelly of this guy's story and his hotel and, like, everything.

1:23:23Yeah. That's right. Like, they recognize his, like, culpability. Yeah. They have no idea, like, what it's for. Exactly. It's so far beyond what they conceive. Right. And, you know, I guess rightly so. Like, why would they think that this guy was. Who has, like, a hotel that's financially, like, obviously not doing well. So, like, maybe he has some reason. She was an attractive young woman. Yeah. Maybe they made some deal. Like, it's all plausible. It's just nothing in that matches the psychology of Norman Bates. And the other thing that they all do is they recognize that the mother is involved.

1:23:58Yeah. And they want to talk to her. They feel like if they can talk to the mother, they'll get to the bottom of this. So, Arbogast tries to do that. But, again, he's not a policeman, so he can't. So, then he leaves. Yeah. And Norman gives a kind of creepy smile when he leaves. And then he just says he's going to go back to the house. He calls. Yeah. He calls them. Cleanses Loomis of any guilt, he says to Vera Miles. He's not involved. And then he walks up to the house. I just, like, this is so Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which I kind of was thinking, I don't know

1:24:28why, that, like, that was the first time somebody goes into a fucked up house and they're going to, you can tell that they're going to die. But it really is, this is the template of that. Like, you don't want to go into that house. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I heard an interview with, I don't remember if it was the screenwriter, maybe referring to himself, or to Hitchcock himself, where they were expressing that they didn't believe that people actually screamed out in theaters, like, don't go in there, kind of thing. And yet, they saw people doing that.

1:24:59Right. Totally. Yeah. Um, you are, that's the fun of the horror movie that this just set the template for is, like, you're so involved that you want to, like, grab the people on the screen and keep them away. Yeah. You know, we mentioned, like, we talked a little bit about the house, the look of the house sort of looming over. I want to talk, like, a little bit more about just the house as a character, because it looms so large in my psyche as the thing. Like, the image of this movie is, one, the shower scene, but two, the house looming over.

1:25:31It's like one of those birds of prey looking over the hotel, and entering it is entering into the subconscious. Like, it's the psyche. It is the psycho. It's entering into Norman's mind. Totally. And that's not a comfortable place to be. Exactly. Not a safe place to be. Yeah. Also, the way, like, it's so steep, the rise up to it, for reasons that are kind of unclear, but that gives the bird of prey kind of sense that you were talking about. But then, the way they film the people going up the stairs is also, like, there's something

1:26:05about it. Like, you don't really see their steps. They're almost, like, kind of floating up the stairs. Yeah, it's that effect is like, I don't know if you remember in Malcolm X, the movie, Spike Lee does that for Denzel Washington at some point, where he's walking down the sidewalk, but he just has them floating. Yeah. Yeah. It's super cool. But it's not like a double dolly, right? Yeah, I don't know. Him falling down the stairs might be. It might be, but it does feel like he's doing that Hitchcock Zoom a little bit, when Arbogast is climbing the stairs. Yeah. I heard somebody else say something interesting, talk about the Freudian interpretation.

1:26:37I don't know if it fits well, but the three levels of the house are like the superego, ego, and id. And I don't know if that fits any of the actual plot points. But why is the basement the id? I don't know. Because that's where he puts the mother. That's really... Yeah. Yeah. Other than it being dark and scary, I don't know why. And I don't know what it means that he puts the mother down there. Yeah. I feel like it means something. Yeah. I agree. It's got it. And she hates it, obviously. She's like, you put me down there before, where he's like, maybe it's him actively trying

1:27:09his hardest to suppress her. Yeah. When she doesn't like to be suppressed. It's something like that, because people are going to start getting suspicious. And so he has to repress her more, but she doesn't like that. She wants to come out of him. So yeah, the Arbogast scene, the Arbogast scene is iconic as anything, you know, like just the overhead shot of coming out. Incredible. So you get this overhead and you get the coming out of Norman dressed as mother. And you're still, if you don't know, you still don't quite know, because that overhead

1:27:43shot is, it's not only a cool shot, it's hiding the faces of both of them in a way that's not obvious that the director is trying really hard to hide the face. No, not at all. Because it's this overhead shot. And so you're only seeing, you know, the wig, what turns out to be the wig. Is that him doing it? Or do they have another? I've wondered that. Yeah. It almost doesn't even look like him later on when he gets caught. Oh, when it actually definitely is. That kind of looks like him. He doesn't seem quite as tall when he's doing it to Arbogast.

1:28:15Yeah. Yeah. So that's it for Arbogast. He kind of glides down the stairs in this very, like, that's such a cool shot. It's such an interesting choice to do it like that. And again, it's a feeling that you get where like, wait, his story's done? Like, you almost feel like, okay, he's taking over from now on. And he's like there for 15 minutes. No, totally. Yeah. It just keeps passing on the protagonist. It's like, and I like how it was important that Arbogast had called them to give them just like the update because now they know that he's not calling when he went back to

1:28:48question the mother. Like he would have called just to even tell us that he got nothing. He would have called. And he exonerated Sam of any complicity in this. So now they can be a team going up. I would say they're the least satisfying team to go into the Bates Motel. But first he goes just by himself, Sam, and she stays at the hardware store to wait. And there's a shot of the rakes over her where it's just like, again, these birds of prey.

1:29:20There's like five of them like waiting, yeah, with claws waiting together. Or you could think of a skeleton in the hands. And Perkins is by, this is almost comedic. He's another car has to go down. And as he's watching the car go down eating his candy corn, he hears someone call for Arbogast. And he's like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.

1:29:43You know, it's just like, this is never going to end. Right. So, but then he leaves and then they come back and they go to the police. I don't really have much to say about the police scene. Do you? All I have to say about it is when he says, Arbogast, is the first time I realized it's Arbo and Arbogast. Is it here where they learn that she's been dead? Yeah, they learn that she's been dead, but they think that he faked her death. They faked her death. Like, of course, they're not going to think he stuffed her with sawdust and dresses up like her.

1:30:18You know, he robbed the grave, stuffed it with sawdust, preserved it. Yeah, I do like that when the wife of the sheriff is like, Norman took a wife?

1:30:29Yeah. Ooh, for my gossip circle. Got some new tea for the gossip. And the sheriff calls Norman, you know, late at night and he's like, no, nothing's wrong. He was just sleeping. That's why he didn't answer the door. So then they go back to, they go to the hotel, pretend to be a couple. Do you think they're going to end up together? Well, apparently in the book, they are having a side thing. Even before? I don't know at what point, but they cut it from the movie because it would make Loomis just too non-sympathetic.

1:31:02Like, so I think he was cheating with a sister. Ooh. Well, as it is, yeah, he's just a bit of a dud. Yeah. Like, I like her, Lila. Yeah, I do too. I like when she says, patience doesn't run in my family, Sam. Like, and that's like, yeah, it doesn't. It didn't for Marion either. That's why she stole the money. She didn't want to wait for him. And why she was pressuring him to get married. Yeah. So they go there, they pretend they're getting a room. He gives them room 10, so way the fuck away from what happened.

1:31:34But they kind of creep around searching. And then they too have this idea that they need to talk to the mother. Yeah. Who's alive in their mind. Yeah. And so they do get to Marion's cabin and this is where they find the scrap of paper in the toilet. Which is actually a hilarious little plot device because all she was writing was 40,000 minus the 700. Which I think she puts together, right? Like, she was like, oh, she's, you know, like. Yeah, she was subtracting something from 40,000, yeah. I don't want to tell, like, Hitchcock's editor in this, who's obviously a genius, like, their job.

1:32:08But this part could have been cut out. Yeah. Like, she was clearly there. Like, they already established that. So they didn't need another thing. Right. So then they decide to split up another horror movie trope, right? Yeah. The girl goes to the scary place. The guy has, yeah. And so he has to distract Norman. And he's, again, it's like Arbogast doing it. It was like crime and punishment, you know? Like, but when Loomis does it, it's just like, again, he's got the wrong idea.

1:32:39He's also kind of aggressive. And Norman, the way Norman is acting is kind of interesting. He's kind of done trying to pretend he's not involved. And he's being uncooperative. Interesting. Yeah. I read it as just Loomis being so inept that he was like, you're not. Like, this guy? Like, this guy's going to get something out of me? Yeah, exactly. And then, meanwhile, she goes up the stairs. And, you know, there's always two sets of stairs. There's the going up to the house stairs and then the inside stairs.

1:33:10And, yeah. So first she goes to the upstairs. Yeah. And this is, like, creepy. Like, she's looking through. And I forgot, like, this part when I was rewatching it. Like, one, like, I do remember that just the weirdness of the bed being, like, indented. Like, the mother's bed. It's so indented. It's so indented that it's unclear. Like, does she weigh more being stuffed? Like, that can't be right. Because it's sawdust. But, like, is he putting her there every night?

1:33:42Do they sleep together there? Or do they sleep together. Yeah. Like, a son is a poor substitute for a lover. Yeah. But it looks like the outline of one body in kind of a fetal position. Like... Yeah. So it's likely Norman and probably the mother, I would think. I never thought about that. Oh, creepy. Yeah. Did you, like, look through the room? It feels like you could go down a rabbit hole for every item there. I did not. I was tempted to. I didn't have time. I was tempted to pause, like, in his room. Yeah. Both of them.

1:34:13Yeah. Like, the two hands together, you know, like, that sculpture. Every painting, I think, there's probably a YouTube video essay about. Uh-huh. Yeah. Norman's room is, like, a little more like a little kid's room, right? It's preserved as a little kid. Yeah. It's like what his room was exactly when he was a kid. Yeah. Like, I don't think he could fit in that bed now. That's why I think he sleeps in his mom's room. Uh, the Eroica Symphony is the record. Is the record that he has. So, I saw people trying to figure out why Eroica.

1:34:43Like, the screenwriter apparently has it in the script that it's Eroica. So, like, it clearly has some meaning. And this might be dumb, but I feel like it's there because it's close to erotica. Maybe. Because she also opens up a book that we never, they never show the contents, but her reaction makes it seem like there's something bad in the book, like, and it might be some perverted shit, you know? Yeah, probably. So, you think he bought the Eroica Symphony? I, you know, no. Thinking it was erotica, and then it's like a Beethoven symphony about Napoleon, and...

1:35:14He's like, oh, shit, I didn't read that right. God damn it. But, you know, I could still jerk off to my magazine with it. I mean, that's as good a theory as any I can come up with. Yeah, who knows? Like, I, you know, maybe just subconsciously, if you see the word Eroica, you might read it as erotica. That was my thought. Like, for the viewer, not for him. The Napoleon complex is just a complex about being short, right? Yeah. If there's one complex, he wouldn't have it. He wouldn't have it as being short, yeah. So, yeah, like, it's just, you feel the meaning of everything there without exactly knowing

1:35:48how to... Like, and it's so creepy. This is what gives me the, like, you're entering Norman's mind vibes. Like, the house is Norman's mind. And, like, the only other times I see a room preserved like that in childhood is usually when somebody's, like, in the movies when, like, parents haven't been able to get past the death of their child. And so they, like, keep it that way. Yeah. It's like, psychically, he's dead at 10. Yeah. Right. And so, like, he preserves the room of his 10-year-old self. Yeah. Yeah. With that rabbit that...

1:36:19Yeah. Like, little stuffed rabbit. It feels like that rabbit was, like, punished, you know? Like, it looks like it's been kind of ripped apart at times. Yeah. So, meanwhile, Loomis is just, like, drilling him. He thinks he figured it out that he took the $40,000 to buy a new hotel. You know, he had this whole story in his mind. Again, it's like small minds, you know? You're not thinking big like Norman. Exactly right. That's why you can't totally get behind him here. And Norman is just kind of blowing it off until he realizes, holy shit, where's your

1:36:53wife? Or, you know, where's the other one? And so he goes up. And now we know, you know, suspense is, he's good at it. Yeah. And so we know now that he's coming. He knocks Loomis out pretty easily, although he should have finished the job. And then he runs up and now we see her going down the stairs, calling for the mom, right? Yeah. And then when she sees that he's coming in, she goes into the basement. Yeah.

1:37:23This is so cool. This is like the, you know, the total, like, German expressionist. Yeah. The light bouncing across her face. Yeah. It's so good. Even just going to the basement, you're like, oh, God. But we don't know what's going to be there. Like, I do think I at least got that out of my first feeling that I didn't know what the deal was and what you would find here. And even when you do, like when I watched it now, like, it's still so, like, just the way it shows the skeleton on her face, her reaction to it.

1:37:56And then Norman coming in, just like, like, ah.

1:38:04Yeah. There is something that is so undignified in seeing Norman clearly dressed up in the getup, which is like, it was mysterious before the shadow of the shower. Yeah. It's like, it becomes like German cabaret or something like that, you know, in the 20s or the end or something, you know, like, whoa.

1:38:26Like, the mother's face, you know, it's like missing the eyes, which is just really creepy. Like, I don't know that there, I have an intellectual connection to this, but there is something that reminds me of like the cop looking in, like with the black sunglasses on, non-reflective, really like, that is echoed here, like the missing, there's something about eyes, you know, we get lots of shots of eyes and that hers are missing, I think is like, she's looking through Norman's eyes now. A hundred percent. And in a movie that's so much about watching, like watching people illicitly to have her eyes

1:39:00missing and that, yeah, Norman's eyes are looking through there. And yeah, the light bouncing, as you said, and then just like going back to the shot of the mother at the end of that scene. But yes, Loomis saves the day and like, who gives a shit, really? I know, I know. I wish it was. I wish Arbogast had been able to save the day. Yeah. This is my big criticism of this film. Yeah.

1:39:24Yeah. Now we get a very controversial scene, right? You get this sheriff who had just been like saying, oh no, you're crazy, Norman, and now he's just kind of worthless to that sheriff. I resent the time that we have to spend with him. And then the psychologist just giving us a very detailed breakdown in a kind of insufferable manner, like the way he's talking, describing it. Yeah. I don't want anybody giving me like psychoanalysis that confidently. Yeah. He's so full of himself. Yeah. I didn't get the story from Norman.

1:39:55Like I said, it wasn't Norman. Yeah. And then when they ask him something, so he's dresses up as her and he says, well, yes. And no. Yeah.

1:40:06Like a transvestite, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He preserved her body. He must have killed them both. Which I don't know. You know, I guess it was like murder-suicide, we thought. But now we're to believe. Yeah. Like, I don't know how the psychiatrist would know that Norman killed them both. Yeah. Well, maybe because the mother said that to him or something. Yeah. But yeah, I think the original story was a murder-suicide. But we come to believe that it's actually Norman that did that. It's at least open to question whether he did it with his father when he was five, you

1:40:39know? Yeah. But certainly nothing suggests that necessarily. Right. By the way, the only connection, you know, you're talking about the hardware store where the woman's looking at the poison for the bugs and she's like, doesn't say whether it's painless or not, we do know from the sheriff that the way that the lover died, that the man was from strychnine poisoning, which is rat poison, I guess. I don't know if it's used for bugs, but he says, like, not a nice way to go. So we know that, like, they probably died a horrible, like, a horrible death.

1:41:10And so if it was Norman who did it, now we know that Norman, like, killed them in a very painful way. Oh, that's interesting. Which also probably reinforces his guilt and identification with the mother.

Final grin and analysis

1:41:23So, yeah.

Final grin and analysis

1:41:24And then we got the famous shot of him as her with the her voice in his head. And it's just a little hard to figure out, like, how to interpret this. Yeah. I mean, his performance, again, like, you're told, just sit there and, like, still, like, your acting is entirely going to be subtle movements of your face. Yeah. Like, what a great performance. I assume that somebody was feeding him, like, the lines to react to as they were being said.

1:41:54It's sad when a mother has to speak the words that condemn her own son. But I couldn't allow them to believe that I would commit murder. They'll put him away now, as I should have years ago. He was always bad. And in the end, he intended to tell them I killed those girls and that man, as if I could do anything except just sit and stare, like one of his stuffed birds. Well, they know I can't even move a finger, and I won't.

1:42:25I'll just sit here and be quiet, just in case they do suspect me. They're probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am. I'm not even going to swat that fly. I hope they are watching. They'll see. They'll see, and they'll know. And they'll say, why, she wouldn't even harm a fly. It's just like a lot of these things, it seems full of meaning and, like, begging for

1:43:02interpretation, but I don't, so, like, if we take the psychiatrist's word, he is now completely her, but she is, as her, pretending that it was Norman that killed all those people because he was trying to make them believe that she did it. Like, what's going on here? Yeah, I don't know. It's puzzling, and it doesn't, in the end, matter because, you know, whoever it is is going away. Like, whichever one of them is going to be imprisoned now.

1:43:35And so, it's weird. She's trying to say, like, her whatever, her part of the mind is saying, like, Norman's been blaming it on me. Like, he's going to say that I was the one who killed those girls, but in fact, it was Norman all along. And I had to tell them that. Yeah, and so that sucks. Like, I had to tell on him. And so, you know, I guess if you really think that she's, you know, dumb enough to think that she's not embodied in Norman, that she's somehow, like, condemning him and she's getting away with it. But, like, the question as to whether or not Norman was Norman when he killed them or whether

1:44:07he was mother when he killed them, like, is still kind of open after this. I think so, yeah. Even though he was dressed up like mother. Yeah. Like, maybe he was trying to frame his mother for the murders. Yeah, right? Like, I've never really heard that suggested, but is that what she means by this? Yeah. She's like, I can't let them think that I would commit murder. Right. Or are we to think she's such a, you know, an overbearing and domineering mother that she was killing them, but she has to frame her son so that they don't know the truth.

1:44:41Yeah. You know, if he is feeling so guilty about what he did to his mother and he wants to preserve the idea of his mother as, like, a pure thing, a good thing, then, like, there's some confusing way in which he could be in the persona of his mother, truly believing that she wasn't the one who did it and blaming him for it. There's also that line, they know I can't even move a finger, which makes it sound like she has some awareness that she's actually a corpse, but then she says, and I won't.

1:45:12So that sort of undercuts that. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what's great about it. We don't need to figure it out. It just feels like whatever the truth is, it's very fucked up. It's very fucked up, and a little flash of the mother's face, you know, is so good. The skeleton, yeah. Is it a true skeleton, or is it actually the mother's preserved face? Like, it's hard to know. I didn't pause it. Oh, I think it was the mother's preserved face. The mother's preserved face, yeah. Yeah, like, it's the same face that we saw in the basement. Okay. And his little grin as the camera's pulling in on him. Which is a reflection of her grin as she was imagining Calloway finding out about the

1:45:48money being gone, you know? Yeah. So what are we to make of that? Like, is the grin that she's gotten away with the murder? Yeah. Yeah. So she's grinning because she's admitting that she's the one who did the murder? Or is she, like... I guess so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the implication of what she's saying... Well, right. At first, it was like, I'm just protecting myself against his attempts to frame me. But then the smile makes a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Because if it's symmetrical, like, in both cases, the women are happy with their handiwork.

1:46:23Yeah. And then, you know, I don't know how well all this jibes with what the doctor says, which is the fact that, you know, out of guilt for killing her, he inhabited her and dug her up and did the... That's, by the way, like, another good part of the sheriff scene. They're like, if his mother's up there, who's buried in so-and-so cemetery? Yeah. The sheriff.

1:46:45It's such, like, small-town sheriff, like, waved. Yeah. And I think the doctor there kind of gives him a look, like, why don't you take, like, 10 minutes? Let the grown-ups here talk. Yeah. I do like somehow, like, when, you know, whoever's there, I don't know if it's, like, the DA or some police, and they're like, wait a second, are you trying to lay the foundation for some kind of defense? Yeah. And he's like, oh, trust me, psychiatrists are not here to lay the groundwork for anything. We're here to tell the truth as it is.

1:47:16Like the philosophers. Yeah. We're here to peel back the curtain. He thinks he's figured it out. Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to believe that Norman slash mother is grinning because he has something on them. Like, they haven't figured it out. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. He thinks he's fooled them. And we've seen versions of that grin from Norman earlier, like, when Arbogast leaves and when the car goes down, you get a little, so, like, I think he can be kind of proud of

1:47:48himself. Yeah. And now it's, I guess he's her. So do you think that he's completely her, right? Because of the voice. I mean, I've always believed that at that point, you know, when she's like, oh, he's chilly, you know, and she's just, like, talking. Like, I do feel like she has completely taken over. She's suppressing him. I like your theory that he was dressing up as her to frame her. It would make, when he appears, you know, with the knife and you see his face, it makes more sense, you know, there.

1:48:18Because he's so Norman there, you know, and he never says anything in that voice when he's dressed up. So maybe he is trying to frame his mother. Yeah. Norman. One thing that I read, I didn't quite pick it up because I wasn't listening for it, but apparently there are three different voices of mother. Did you see this? Yeah. Which is nice. Like, I like that there's no consistent. It makes sense. Yeah. Although, when we are meant to think that it's his voice when it can be heard from the house, right? When Marion hears the mother, like, clear as day.

1:48:51I guess there's no other explanation for that. Yeah. But, yeah. I guess it's like, but still, in your head and even when you speak it, given that you're speaking in a different voice, it'll sound different. Yeah. Yeah. It's another little detail that Hitchcock is quite famous for, I think. All right. Any final things to say about this movie? No. You know, I sometimes wonder what it is about this movie. Like, obviously, there's like a historical, social, sociological, and artistic reasons

1:49:23why it's, like, famous and influential. But even with that, like, even the granting that it was, you know, before it's time and it influenced all this stuff, what is it that is making it loom so large? There's some combination of these things, like, the black and whiteness, like, the creepy house. The house. Yeah. The, like, disturbing image of the mother, like, Anthony Perkins' performance and then dressed up as mother. Just, like, that there could be, like, this innocent-seeming young man who has, like, such

1:49:55darkness underneath him. I think it's all of that. But the fact that people take road trips and they stay in weird motels, I mean, not as much as we used to now. It's all been, you know, like, now it's like you stay at a Holiday Inn Express or something. But, like... But, yeah, roadside motels were a huge thing. Yeah. I've stayed in so many of them over my life. Yeah, I do. You know, like, so people could relate to that danger. And then, yeah, it just has so many iconic things. The house. The mother's skeleton. The motel itself.

1:50:25The performances. And, obviously, the vulnerability of being attacked in the shower like that. Yes, of course. Because, like, everybody takes a shower and you're in your most vulnerable position. Yeah. I can see your shower in the background there and all I can think of is you might get stabbed to death. Well, I don't shower there. You're a garage apartment. Well, that's why. That's why, right? Aren't you ever in the shower and you're like, you think you hear something? Yeah. It's like the worst time. Yeah. And so, like, all these things, you know, you have, like, five completely iconic things

1:50:59in one movie. And then I think also, like, the psychoanalytic aspect of it. The mother. The suffocating mother. The boy who's overwhelmed by it. And the covering up of a crime. And just, but you're right. It's still mysterious. Even with all that. Why this more than Citizen Kane even? And, you know, in some ways more than any other movie. Maybe, like, you know, The Shining is also up there in terms of its. Creepiness. Kind of. And also just how kind of iconic it is. The Overlook Hotel. Yeah.

1:51:30That's right. People can, like, know the lingo even if they haven't seen it. Yeah. They know the things that happen. But the twins, you know, and The Shining. Yeah. And, you know, the first part of it, the Marion stealing the money part, is such a good noir film. Yeah. Totally. You know, it's just like a straight up noir. And really good one, too. Like, you're very, she's a very compelling character. And you're with her all the way, I think. And you identify with her. And you can imagine the audience thinking, like, oh, okay. Janet Leigh, noir, Hitchcock.

1:52:01Like, okay. It's black and white. Like, you think you're going in to see a noir. I mean, it's called Psychos. But do you think, is she the psycho? Was psycho a term? Yeah. I don't know. I actually don't know the answer to that. Like, psychopath was a term by then, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if anybody had, like, used it to... He's not a psychopath either, right? Or is he? You know, that will turn on what Freud meant when he said psychopath. He's not a psychopath in the way that we use it now. Yeah. But Freud had the distinction between psychosis and neurosis.

1:52:35And I think that this is meant to, like, neurosis is her and psychosis is him, I think, is the way it's supposed to go. But I can't... I don't really know. Yeah. So, it gets at, like, the archetypical things that we are worried about, both consciously and unconsciously. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Well, you know, another fucking podcast about psycho. Like, how many have there probably been? They were the first. Now there's one more. Yeah.

1:53:05All right. Join us next time on Very Bad Wizards. The great end of us has spoken.

1:53:13Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Anybody can have a brain.

1:53:44You're a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard.