The Lotus Eaters Episode 12: Reunited in Ithaca [unlocked]

Welcome to the final episode

0:00Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to the Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content, and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us.

0:40So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

0:52Let's get to the episode.

1:22Welcome to another episode of the Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. Dave, when we recorded the first episode, who knows when? The 80s? Yeah, in the late 80s. You said that maybe, and you announced it to me on air, live, recorded, but live, I think you should come to Ithaca. You should journey to Ithaca, and we record the last episode, and here I am.

1:57Incredible. Do you regret it? Do you wish that you had a great time? Met your family for the first time, which is kind of incredible. Yeah, your house is really nice. I've been really enjoying my time here. So yeah, this really worked out nicely. Yeah, it is a homecoming for you. You've been part of the life of this house for a long time. And you, as we talked about, Tamler is a big reason for this household to even exist. Yeah, right. The guest house. Yeah, not even that, but like the family. Because we're not for our podcast.

2:28I wouldn't have met my wife. Like the kids owe you their lives, literally. They do. That's a debt I intend to collect. Now, we may still do another episode, I think, like a sort of sum-up, wrap-up episode. I think it would be fun to kind of do a dream cast of this. Oh, yeah. I think that would be fun. Like we could pick actors throughout history, pick a director. Yeah, just none of the actors that are actually in the movie. Except Lupita Nyong'o. Yeah. As hell.

Reflecting on the Odyssey ending

2:59Well, we, you know, as testament to our wonderful planning skills, the movie's coming out Friday and you're leaving on a Wednesday, so we can't watch it together. But I don't know. Maybe it's for the better. Who knows? Maybe it's for the better. I might not be fun to watch it with. I'll just be kind of grumbling and saying, like, I don't like, that's not what he said. You know, like. That's not what happened. Yeah. So, but this is the conclusion of us talking about the Odyssey text in terms of, you know, going two books at a time, which we've been doing. So, yeah.

3:29How did you think the Odyssey wrapped up? I mean, I know we're going to do a wrap-up episode probably, but I just want to say, broadly speaking, like, I'm so glad I read this. I mean, like, you mentioned something like this, but I might legitimately have gone my life without reading it. Because, like, why would I at this point? Like, if you've gone this far. I think it's maybe the best, like, best work of art that we've produced. It's certainly up there. We as in the white Europeans that you're. Exactly. Yeah.

3:59And then in terms of these last two chapters specifically, I was also just kind of happy with the way it ended. I know it kind of ends abruptly, but I was really in favor of that. Like, I hate it when it gets dragged out, like Lord of the Rings style, like 18 different endings. Like, because you can imagine like a big epic like this that you would be tempted to do that. It's just funny how it has the patience to do that whole scene in Hades with Agamemnon telling the story of Achilles burial and stuff like that. And then just when the sort of action is getting going in book 24, Thunderbolt, we're done.

4:36Still in the guise of Mentor is the last line. You know, it's. Yeah. It's an interesting choice, but I agree. I'm in favor of it as well. Very Job-like in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Very Job-like. Exactly. It's this kind of deus ex machina appearing and just putting an end to this cycle of violence that would have started. I think the Souter's families have a lot of nerve. What did they expect when he came home? Oh, yeah. Hey, guys. What have you been doing here?

5:07Like. You know, I could see any single one except for maybe like the two who have been like the ringleaders. Any single one of them thinking that they didn't deserve it. Yeah. You know, like when they're complaining in Hades, I was like, yeah, if somebody just told me that story, I'd be like, yeah, you thought he was dead. You know, you were there trying to like woo his. She needs she needs a new husband. Yeah. You tried to kill his son.

5:33But and then they're like, oh, I found us out. Shoot. All right. All right. Well, yeah, we'll give you a little restitution. We'll call it even. But that's not how it works. No. And as I think we talked about, like one of the big things that he had to do is purify his house like they had soiled his house. They had tainted it. They had made it a home that he couldn't reclaim right away. And I think a lot of what happens in these two books is Odysseus fully reclaiming his

6:04home. Yeah. Do you think given that like at one point they complained that like our bodies are just piled up and lying on the floor, is this like a form of justice or is this a kind of violation of Xenia for the dead? That the bodies are just piled up. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just like, oh, it's like, like, don't let anybody know yet. Let's go into town. Flies around the bodies. I don't think Xenia comes into it when these people have been invading your house and infesting your house like they have been. And maybe not when you're dead either. Yeah. It's like maybe different things kick in.

6:35Yeah. I think there might be other codes like lack of proper respect for the dead. But I don't know. Like, it's an interesting question. It seems like it's a live question. It's hard to not import your own kind of moral values onto the situation. But I think once you try to kill the king's son so that you can, like, more smoothly fuck his wife and marry her, like, you don't get to get the proper burial rights right away. And they end up getting buried.

7:07They ship the suitors who weren't from Ithaca to their homes. So eventually they do. But, you know, Odysseus has to keep it a secret at first that he's home. So, yeah, so book 23 and book 24, that's kind of a very easy to describe overall what happens in book 23. Penelope and Odysseus are reunited. And we have a lot to talk about when it comes to that scene. But I think overall, there's something deeply beautiful about it. And then in book 24, Odysseus is reunited with his father.

7:39There, the suitors decide they want to try to get revenge and, and Zeus puts a stop to that. And throughout all of this, Agamemnon is still bitching about Vitamnestra. It's a, he will not shut the fuck up about that. I think that part is, I mean, I have some serious things to say, but I always find that very funny because he won't let it go. He's like, oh man, that Penelope is amazing. She'll be remembered forever. Not like my wife, that whore, that slut who plotted to kill me.

8:12And now here I am. And I, can't you just imagine all the other spirits in Hades just saying, can someone get him? Can someone shut him up? Move on, Agamemnon. We don't want to hear it anymore. Yeah. But that gets me to like, you know, one of the like loose themes that I was thinking about, about your reputation and your legacy and how you'll be remembered. He's very much concerned with how you'll be remembered and that, you know, how, how a particular woman is remembered is not just for her, but like how women might be remembered.

8:43Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that bugs him is that he is going to be known as the person who was killed by his wife and her lover. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But again, he kind of had it coming as well, although that takes us outside this text more into the Iliad and other surrounding texts. Yeah. I did find myself being like, oh yeah, you know, like Achilles, I don't, maybe I should have read the Iliad. Well, that could be next. You never know.

9:13So yeah. What other themes did you, did you get?

Themes of reputation and legacy

9:17Definitely the recognition stuff again, Oliver. I mean, this is like rears its head a lot, but this time, especially with Laertes, you got the sense that like, okay, man, like now you're just making the old man hurt. Like your tests are clever and they were at one point important, but what's the importance of doing this to your dad? You know, you're like torturing him for no reason. Yeah. And he realizes that and stops right away. But still it's like, he's like caught up in the game like too much. Yeah. I mean, even just the initial impulse to do it, he goes and he sees his dad dressed

9:49in the red, you know, his rags and weeping. And then so Odysseus has to stop and he breaks down and starts weeping just to see him. It's such a kind of pitiful sight. Then he wondered whether to kiss his father, twine around him and tell him he had come home again and everything that happened on the way or question him. He thought it best to start by testing him with teasing and abuse. Like, why did, why think that's best of all those? I know. I don't know. The only thing I could think is he just got caught up in this.

10:21This has preserved him so long that he can't turn it off. And it's interesting because with Penelope, they're on the same wavelength kind of, you know, like how much she knows, how much like he knows that she knows is all maybe still a live question. But what's clear is that they're on that same wavelength about being clever because they've needed it for survival. And even in this like last sort of recognition test that she gives him, he's not upset. I mean, a little bit maybe at first, but he gets it.

10:52They're playing on even ground kind of. Yes. They are a like-minded couple who is, you know, two hearts working as one. And, you know, in my view, they have worked together to get it to this point. Of course, that's going to raise the question of why she would be testing him at this point. And that's something we'll definitely talk about. But just in general, like that leads to one of the themes that I wanted to highlight, which is, and maybe this is anachronistic to even put it like this, but I don't think so.

11:22I think this is a real love story. This is a love story about a man who is offered immortality by a beautiful goddess, Calypso, and he turns it down, voyages back to reclaim his house and be reunited with his wife. And it's really the only successful marriage that we hear about, you know, two like-minded people sharing a home. Like if you juxtapose that with Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, obviously, but also Helen and

11:53Menelaus, they're not on equal footing. Even Arete and Alcinous, you could see that Alcinous has a slight inferiority complex around his wife, and that's probably the closest. And the daughter knows it, so she tells him. Exactly. Yeah, it's an open secret. But here they are two people who genuinely love each other and respect each other, and they're finally reunited after 20 years of suffering. And the thing about Laertes that's different, too, is, I don't know, you know, you had a

12:26father who passed away at a fairly old age. My father is, right, the age that your father was. And I don't know if your dad got like even more sensitive in his old age about stuff. Like my dad's kind of a softie now in a way that he never was. And to think about what he would be feeling if he had had the pain for so long of thinking his son was dead, you just feel bad for him. You wouldn't think it best to tease him with abuse. Old man, you know your trade and take good care of this neat garden, every plant and vine.

12:59But I have to say something, he says. Please do not get angry at me. You do not take good care of your own self. You are unkempt, old man. Your skin is rough and dirty and your clothes are rags. Your master is neglecting you, although you're not lazy. In your height and face, you seem like a leader. Yeah, you know, just you reading that reminds me of something, which is that Odysseus is also dressed in rags when Penelope first initially is uncertain about whether to accept him as actual Odysseus. And so there's something about maybe having to get out of the rags.

13:32Like it's not time for rags anymore. Clean your room like Jordan Peterson. Exactly. Make your bed. And so like now this is too charitable, I think, a reading of what Odysseus is doing. But I think, you know, part of what Penelope is doing is saying, like, you're not a beggar anymore. So I want to see Odysseus. And, you know, you could maybe think that Odysseus is doing that to Laertes. There is a nice moment at the end where Laertes gets the one kill in the battle and he's all suited up with armor.

14:03So it could be that this was something to get him there. But it's just it's it's one of the my the questions that has puzzled me the most is why he like accept that maybe he's testing crazy, like he can't stop himself from testing people. I think that might be it. Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to talk about before we get into it? No. Other than like as we get into maybe the recognition part for Penelope. Yeah. I guess I have some things maybe to say about that. Not factually, but just psychologically about.

14:35Yeah. Yeah. Maybe actually before we dive in, everyone knows what I think. What do you think about the recognition question? Did Penelope recognize him in book 17, 18, you know, somewhere around there? I'm still of the opinion that it's underspecified. I still think that you could read without being too crazy, but never quite having a complete reading like either one of those. But I'm I'm leaning toward an early recognition. I don't know exactly when, but that's what I was going to say about this.

15:05You could say, well, look, she obviously didn't recognize him because she's still trying to test him and she's still having emotions. But I think that's very plausible as just a response to like being fucking traumatized for that long about this all. You know, there's a story in like the New Testament where the famous Thomas, the doubter, he needs to see his hands like before he believes that he's Jesus. That's like the vibe that I was getting here where it's like, OK, yeah, I know I've probably known for a while. Like we've maybe even said been sending messages to each other, but people have tried to make

15:36a fool of me for so long, have tried to deceive me for so long. I'm not yet ready to like let all of this emotion out. And so I was giving her a break for not wanting to just immediately be like, oh, yeah, we were totally giving messages to each other. Yeah. Oh, my God. Can you believe how we did this? Yeah. Good. I'm glad. I'm obviously encouraged to hear that. And I think that's right. You know, I also have other thoughts about what she's doing with the sort of specific test. But I think part of it is, yeah, she has PTSD from all this, all that's happened over the

16:10last 20 years. And, you know, just the idea of getting your hopes up like that. Yeah. I mean, I'm very much someone who I'm terrified of jinxing something and even something that I've wanted. Like, I'm always scared that something's going to fuck it up at the last minute, you know? And, you know, I think that that could definitely be part of it. Who hurt you? Like, why are you that traumatized?

Penelope and Odysseus reunite

16:29I, trust me, like, Penelope. Is it Jen?

16:35She doesn't just leave one time. She leaves every day. Goes to Houston Ballet. You're like a dog. You're like not sure why she disappears for like 12 hours. And a lot of times I'll hear like the gate open and, but I won't, I'll think, but that's probably the neighbor's gate.

16:52She's not really coming home. Anyway, so, yeah, well, let's get into it. So, again, this is, yeah, cinematic is the right word. I think you've used that last episode. What's her name? You're a client. I love the just image of her just chuckling as she goes upstairs. And now she's going to, you know, like from her point of view, she's going to have the best news to give Penelope. Guess what? Guess what? Yeah. And immediately Penelope just says, you're crazy. And then Eurycleia says, no, no, no.

17:23Like, this is real. He was here. Like, he was that beggar. And the way Homer then describes it is Penelope was overjoyed. She jumped from her bed, hugging the nurse and started crying. Her words flew fast. Dear nanny, if this is the truth, if he has come back to the house. So then it's like, but how did he beat all the suitors when he's just one man? So it's like, what is she doing here? Like, she seems at first to believe her. And of course, like, I think she's known he's here all the time, but then immediately tries

17:54to undercut that. And I think your explanation is like, oh, wait, I can't get too excited here. I can't let myself get too excited. Yeah. And I think, you know, like she could just really be compartmentalizing her mind in these situations where she's like talking to him late at night as this stranger, really convincing herself that it's him. That's why I think it's kind of works for me as underspecified or maybe that isn't the right word, but, but rather like her vacillating, like truly like being convinced, knowing that

18:26that's him that night. And then in the morning being like, man, this is too good to be true. And then like, when an old lady comes and excitedly tells you, it's like me telling you Spain was going to win. Like, it's going to happen. It's like, for sure. You're like, there are fucking five minutes left, you know? And it's like, yeah, but you know, like you knew, right? You knew like every rational part of you is like, okay, this is like 99 to one. No, that's a good, I mean, it's the stakes aren't as high in that analogy, but I think the impulse is exactly that. But the other element of this is that the gods, like she thinks the gods might've punished

18:59the suitors, or at least that's what she says. Yeah. We know the gods can kind of disguise themselves in all sorts of forms. So even after, Eurycleia says, I have like DNA evidence of this period, right? Like at that same scar, I saw it. I just couldn't tell you. I swore an oath. And yeah, Penelope just still is like, you just don't understand the ways of the god, clever as you are. So then I love the way she goes downstairs. Homer describes it like this. Her heart could not decide if she should keep her distance as she was questioning her own

19:34dear husband or go right up to him and kiss his face and hold his hands in hers. So there, it seems like she knows it's him. Yeah. And she crossed the threshold and sat across from him beside the wall in firelight. He sat beside the pillar and kept his eyes down, waiting to find out whether the woman who once shared his bed would speak to him. It's interesting that he has his eyes down there, I think. Yeah. He's looking down. I don't know out of like, he's also scared or is there some shame there or?

20:08Yeah. Yeah. I read that as him being like, okay, maybe this whole time I've been thinking, if I just make it home, it'll be good. But now I'm realizing, no, I have to make it home. And she also has to want me. Yeah. Right. Because it's not obvious. I mean, he could kick her out or whatever, but it's still, she still needs to actually make the active decision. And maybe it is shame. Maybe he's like, oh, fuck, dude. I got these piled up bodies of like, maybe our secret code was like misunderstood. Or maybe once she actually sees the result of whatever our plan was, she'll change her

20:41mind. Or maybe it wasn't the plan. Or maybe it wasn't the plan. Yeah. Maybe she was going to really marry one of the suitors. Yeah. Right. And so it seems like he could be just being sheepish about like, okay, let me see. Will she embrace me? Yeah. And I think, you know, it was her plan, right? She picked the perfect contest for the suitors that Odysseus could actually come win, get a weapon and start taking them out. Right. But so like, I think strategically, obviously he filled in a lot of the details there, but she was kind of behind the central component of the plan.

21:14But she also, I think, had to like build him up a little bit. You know, he'd been a beggar. He'd been hesitant. I think part of the testing is like, is a form of procrastination some of the time. And I think part of what Penelope was doing was even like with the geese dream is saying, I woke up and the geese were still there. So like, what's going on? And, you know, this isn't disrespecting the warrior side of Odysseus. He's been a beggar. He's been a drifter. He has been like, he was like Calypso's sex toy, like the Calypso dildo for seven years.

21:50He was like, he had to throw himself at the knees of Arte, the queen. Like he was paranoid. He, when he gets to Ithaca, even Telemachus had to kind of hurry up the plan. And so, you know, like I think she wants to also get him to be back to being Odysseus. But of course, this is now after he killed all the suitors. So to still think I have to build him up is a little different. But that thing with the rags that you pointed out with Laertes, I think is a part of it.

22:21She even says that. She sat in silence, stunned. Sometimes she was glancing at his face. It seemed like him. But then his dirty clothes were unfamiliar. And here's where Telemachus is like, Mom. Mom. Let me do it. Let me do it. Because that's me. That's me.

22:38Mother. Cruel, heartless mother. What are you doing? No, I'm not going to do it the whole time. But yeah, why are you doing this? Rejecting father. Like, and it's such a like a child of divorce thing, kind of, you know, like you guys, you love each other. What are you doing? You were going to get back together. I mean, yeah. And from his perspective, it's like, wait, it's all done. It's worked out. Like, why would it matter? Yeah. But like to not have seen someone's face for 20 years, to have been dreaming of it and to have like a kind of different body in front of you.

23:09Like she's, I think, yearning for the familiar. And to be fair to her, the people who required the scar to know, she needs her own brand of recognizing. Yeah. She needs to not know that this is Odysseus, the physical person that she married, but that this is Odysseus, the king of Ithaca, Penelope's husband, and someone who can actually return to the house as Odysseus, the Odysseus she knows, right? And so after he does the mom, she says, I'm confused, my child.

23:43I cannot speak or meet his eyes. If this is really him, if my Odysseus has come back home, we have our ways to recognize each other through secret signs known only to us two. And as you, I think, alluded to, like Odysseus smiles at this. Yeah. Yeah. I, when I first read it, I was like, wait, do they have like a weird sex thing? Like, like he'll stick his finger in my booty and I'll know. Because I had heard of the bed test. So I just assumed, yeah, the shocker. Yeah. Right. So he's like, all right, this is like the final.

24:16Yeah. He just says to Lemachus, like, you must allow your mother to test me out. She will soon know me better. While I am dirty, dressed in rags, she will not treat me with kindness or acknowledge me. And then I like that he then immediately pivots to, okay, but we have to also prep for the suitors and just kind of on the fly, the suitors family just comes up with like initial steps in the plan. Yeah. Which is realistic, right? Like you can't just murder all of those young men and not expect that some bad shit's like

24:47coming your way. Yep. Exactly. So then he gets rubbed with oil. I think this is our last oil rubbing. So. I forgot to do that for you when you got here. Yeah. No, I haven't gotten one oil rub since I've been in Ithaca. I assume that's probably happening tonight. Yeah. Uh, and he gets all dressed up and he's in a tunic and Athena's making him more attractive. And then he sits next to his wife and he, I think he's expecting at this point, okay, now I've passed the test.

25:19I don't look like a beggar anymore. I don't act like a beggar anymore. I'm like, if killing the suitors wasn't enough for you, I also have a plan on how to handle the consequences of that. This, by the way, just as a, an aside, like when Athena makes him beautiful. Again, you know, it says, and then Athena poured attractiveness from head to toe and made him taller and stronger. His hair grew thick and curly after his bath. He looked like an immortal. He sat down in the chair opposite. That's such a thing that I think a man, it's a natural for a man to think like, oh no, like I'm now attractive. The whole, what she was worried about was that I was not the attractive man, but that's not

25:53really it. And then, so she, he finally explodes, like the gods have given you the hardest heart. No other wife would so reject a husband who has been suffering for 20 years, finally coming home. Well, nanny, make a bed for me so I can rest. And Penelope says, and I just love this, you extraordinary man, I'm not acting proud or underplaying the big event. I am not surprised at how you looked. Do you look like this the day your long auras sailed away from Ithaca?

26:24So she is saying, I know you're Odysseus. And then she does the bed test. Oh, make the bed, pull out the bedstead and spread quilts and blankets on it. And it's Homer says she spoke to test him and Odysseus was furious. So she just touches like a nerve. And it's so important that she does that, I think, because now he starts talking about how he made that bed. He like built it into like, it can't be moved. Nobody could move it. An immortal could move it.

26:54And he describes how he built it, packed the stones together, fixed a roof, built, built the room around the tree. Yeah. He built the room around the tree. And so couldn't be moved by a mortal. And he's really worked up about this.

The immovable tree bed test

27:08Then, and I, this is, I think, so beautiful. It says at that her heart and body suddenly relaxed and she fully accepts him. Um, so let me ask you, what do you think is the point of this particular test? Like that was clearly how he, she hoped he would react. Yeah. So I'm of two minds about this, but I'll tell you the, the interpretation that I would like to believe, and I think would be fine. If not better, I would like to believe that she is being just like feisty with this whole

27:43thing. She's already convinced it's him. And what she's doing is we've been playing this game of cleverness back and forth with like real, like existential stakes. Let me play this one more time with you just to play. That's what I like to think is going on. She's teasing him. She's teasing him. She gets a rise out of him. She seems like the kind of playful slash kind of, you know, like the, the kind of like fun, but like a little mean streak that you kind of like sometimes in a partner where you're

28:13just like, Oh yeah, they're giving me a hard time. Like that. She got a rise out of him on top of that, just gives her a slight edge going into this like final moments of their union. It gives her just like a little bit of like the power. And maybe it's even a little bit of like, that's what you get motherfucker for being gone for 20 years, even though I know it's not your fault. And this is a wonderful moment. Like, let me have this, like, let me see you get pissed off and kill two birds with one stone. Now, like if there was any part of me that wasn't sure, like then obviously now I know, but what did you think? I like that.

28:45I think it's consistent with how I see this. So this whole time, I mean, he's, since he left and we'll later find out that it was like, it was a very close call whether he would leave, but this whole time he's been a destroyer. He's been in warrior mode for the first 10 years and then a beggar. And then now there was one last battle to fight to reclaim his house. So he's been destroying, destroying, destroying, you know, and this is calling back to when

29:17he was a builder. I love that. Totally. That's perfect. Yeah. And both of those things can be true. Definitely. And you remember when you back in book five, when he's probably at his lowest point, that's when he's just goes to the beach and just starts crying like all day between. Fucking Calypso. Yeah. And then when Hermes comes and says, okay, you got to go, you have to let him go Calypso. He starts building the boat, you know, and it goes through all the detail of how he builds

29:50the boat. I remember you said something like, this is also part of rebuilding himself, getting him like back in a mode where he feels confident, where he feels like he's active. He has agency. Yeah. Because I remember, I don't know if I said it, but I remember thinking like Hermes couldn't throw him a bone and like help him build a boat, you know? Yeah. But like, yeah, exactly. Yes. So this goes into that same detail about the building. Yeah. And it's like, are you ready to be not just a warrior, not just a fumigator, but like a

30:21builder? Can we come back and start building things and pick up from there? Because that's roots, you know, and the tree is such a nice image for that also that like these are the roots of like the strength of our relationship. And we built our bed chamber around the strongest like foundation, the strongest roots. Yeah. And it's a little bit like, um, you know, Ecclesiastes to everything. There's a time you had to be a warrior for 20 years, but what we're doing now is we're going to live out the last years of our lives and you can't be that.

30:52Like that is no longer what I need in this household. Right. The suitors are dead now, you know, like there are the domestic duties and they're the warrior. Take out the trash and shit. Yeah. Two surfaces if I do the dishes, you know. She says, now you've told the story of our bed and you've made my stubborn heart believe in you. I like that. Yeah. Just to say real quick, it says this made him want to cry. Obviously, he held his love, his faithful wife and wept. And I just love the imagery as welcome as the land to swimmers when Poseidon wrecked.

31:25Takes their ship at sea and breaks it with great waves and driving winds. A few escape the sea and reach the shore, their skin all caked with brine. Yeah. So glad she was to see her own dear husband with her white arms would not let go his neck. And then Athena holds the night. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I love that. They would have wept until the rosy dawn began to touch the sky. But shining eyed Athena intervened. She held night back, restraining golden dawn beside the ocean and would not let her yoke her swift young colts shining and bright.

31:57It's like, do all the other people wonder like what's going on? Why isn't the sunrise? It's been like. What does your watch say? What does your sundial say? Yeah. You know, that reminded me of what you said, like the reading that passage of the Homeric simile, it's just reminds you how traumatic it was for her. Like she was at sea, he was at sea. And finally, in reuniting, they found land again and they found the tree bed again.

The final labor for Poseidon

32:28So then he tells her about the labors. He says, you know, there's still more troubles, which is, I don't know, it's in some ways, you know, Mars, a perfectly happy fairy tale ending. But on the other hand, it's very true to life, I think. That even when something big happens, there's still shit to take care of and there's still obligations that you have that you need to fulfill. And yeah, and it's such a strange thing that what he has to do, he has to go take an oar just further and further inland until he finds people that don't even know what an oar is.

33:04They don't have salt. So they just don't have any connection with the ocean. They don't know that the ocean exists. And at that point, when someone says about the oar, like, is that a fan? He planted in the ground. He makes a bunch of sacrifices. And then if he does that and a perfect sacrifice to Poseidon, then he'll have a gentle death surrounded by his people who will be rich and happy. And I like that Penelope makes him say what it is. At first, he's reluctant. And she's like, no, just let's hear it.

33:34Yeah, we need to get this shit on the table if there's some other shit you got to do. Yeah. But what do you make of that particular task he has to fulfill? Why that one? Man, I don't know. When I was reading, I was fixated on the sacrifice parts. So I had been reading about how the ancient view of gods as really possessing bodies of some sort, physical bodies and needing to eat. And the way that you could feed them was by burning. And like they inhaled. Like that's what they were doing. Like you needed to like, they had to inhale the thing.

34:05And so I just thought these gods are fickle. And maybe he needs to seal the deal with like what seems like a arbitrary. I mean, it's not, it doesn't seem arbitrary. It seems like there's some deep thing there about like going to people who've never even seen the sea. But it's like something like expand your world and understand. Like one striking thing that everybody has ever said about the Odyssey is how universal the human condition is and how it's like tells the stories of things we all care about. And it's like, it's very human. There is something that I thought was sweet about like now go to the farthest stretches

34:39of people who might not even know what it is to have a boat and like somehow see them connect with them. Like I got a vibe of like, make your story a story that everybody will tell, even the people who aren't part of your small world. Yeah, like I think that's interesting. I think, you know, the one thing you might ask is why Poseidon would be interested in him spreading his own glory to people. But one thing he's also doing, these people, if they don't know about the ocean, they don't

35:10know about Poseidon. And he's, yeah. And he's like, just make a little bit of peace with Poseidon. Come on. Yeah. Like, so maybe these people will start to like learn about Poseidon if they see the or. It's like the gospel. It's like Christians have to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like missionary work for Poseidon. If he does that, he'll overlook the blinding of his son. So, and just the other thing I think that's kind of metaphorically resonant with that test is that he has spent all this time lost at sea.

35:42Yeah. And now he's going to the landest land. Yeah. That can possibly be where they don't even. Yeah. Grounded. Exactly. So, yeah. I love though that for some reason it tickled me so much to think about ghosts go inland so much that they wouldn't even recognize an oar. And it does kind of look like a fan. It looks like you're like, wait, why is your fan made of such heavy wood? Yeah. That's inefficient. Yeah. But then it made me think of like the gods must be crazy. Yeah. You know, like finding a Coke bottle. Like, wait, what is this thing? Yeah. And it just shows you also that there's these parts of the world that, you know, for all

36:17you've seen, you know, there's, you don't even know about them. And then it's just a beautiful thing, I think. The house starts kind of working in harmony. They finish the cleaning. Yuri Nomi, the other slave, leads them to their bed by torchlight. And everyone goes to bed. Everyone goes to sleep. Telemachus makes people stop dancing. And all of a sudden it's dark and they're alone. And I think like we've talked about how they've never been able to talk alone. And even now, like people can hear them.

36:47Yeah, I just assume like it's going to be a concert all night of just fucking. And, and yeah.

Sharing stories through the night

36:52And then I just think this is so sweet. After the couple had enjoyed their lovemaking, they shared another pleasure, telling stories. And they both have great stories to tell. She's told him about the weaving and the unweaving. And he tells her, he tells her about everything. He probably leaves out certain details. Yeah. But what I like, you know, like the first thing it says is Odysseus told her how much he hurt so many other people and in turn how much he had endured himself. Like I like that that comes first. And it does remind me of something like, I don't remember if I've mentioned it here,

37:22but when you look at the people who have the worst kind of PTSD, like from war, it's not as much how much they've been like suffering. It's predicted really well by how much they've done to other people. And because they start viewing themselves as bad people, that's just ends up being really hard for people to handle. And so that, that it's like, again, this sort of perhaps universal, like admission that like what made me almost lose it was what I did to other people. Not so much what was done to me.

37:54Although he does complain plenty about what was done. He does, right? Literally in the next clause. But I think you're right. Like that that's the first thing he started. And he's. And he's traumatized by like what he caused to happen to his own men. Yes. As, as will be brought up in book 24, that he cost a lot of people their lives for a cause that, well, the cause was also his glory. Yeah. That was mission accomplished for sure. But he lost 20 years of a mortal life and a mortal life. 20 years is a lot.

38:24And I feel like you'll always, if you go through something like that, you'll always think, was it worth the lives of people? Yeah. Or you should, at least. You should. And I think that's such a live question. Is it worth it also because of how much suffering I caused to others? And is it worth it because of how much suffering I caused my own family? How much suffering I caused myself? That runs through this text and also the Iliad. Like, how is it worth it to do this? And you kind of, you have to go from being the person who's always like, woe is me.

38:56Like, why does everything happen to me? Like, why am I so cursed? Why does Zeus hate me? To all of a sudden, being like the only person who actually made it, being reunited with your wife. Like, I feel like that takes some processing to like, accept the guilt of being the survivor and that the only one who really benefited from all that shit was now you. That you get to have this amazing night with your wife. Yeah. Love making and storytelling. Do you think he was like, okay, Don, come. Like, I'm kind of tired right now. Like, I've gone eight times. She's like, nope, one more.

39:27It's been a long 20 years for me. Mentor, is that you? And then ten of us was starting to look kind of hot, you know. But I think like, also, it reminded me on a, you know, scale to down level. You know, I used to have a long distance relationship and maybe one of us would go on a long trip and then we would come back. And that first moment where you come back and you just tell the stories of what happened. And, you know, this is even before, like, there's phones and stuff.

39:58So you've gotten updates about it, like, throughout. This is, like, it was a really beautiful time is when you're first together and it's exciting and you want to hear about what the other person has been doing. Yeah. And I think that is part of it, too. Like, Penelope is really enjoying these stories. It's like, tell me everything. Yeah. She's, yeah, she doesn't even ask, like, so, wait, why did you stay on Cersei's Island for a whole year? Again, I didn't catch that point. Yeah. All right. So it's, yeah, it's a beautiful reunion.

The suitors arrive in Hades

40:32Yeah. Yeah.

The suitors arrive in Hades

40:33So then book 24, I like the description of the suitors getting led to Hades by Hermes, that they were squeaking like bats in a secret crannies of a cave who cling together. And when one becomes detached and falls down from the rock, the rest flutter and squeak, just so the spirits squeaked and hurried after Hermes, lord of healing. So it's like, this is how it seems to, you know, an objective view, like not from their point of view. They're talking, you know, they're having like heartfelt conversations, but actually it's

41:04just this like squeaking is kind of, is pretty interesting. And yeah, Agamemnon is still bitching from the get-go about Clytemnestra. He first talks to Achilles and it's so funny because he gives this long, elaborate description of why Achilles is so lucky and how much he did to make sure he got a proper burial and how amazing it was, but really always ends up going back to better to die than to come home and just get killed right away. Like, you know who didn't get what you got? Yeah.

41:35Really quickly at the end of book 23, the very last scene where he's like, hey baby, I know we spent all night making love, but shit's about to go down. And he starts like arming himself because the suitors are going to get revenge. I just thought that's like a scene in so many movies. Yeah. Like the wife waking up or like the girlfriend, like, what are you doing? And he's like tucking the gun under his, like small of his back and like, don't worry, baby, I got to take care of some shit. Yeah. Like heat, you know, Michael Mann's heat. It's like, yes, we're going to, I'm going to run away with the girl from the bookstore, but I just got to take care of this one thing, like wait in the car.

42:08And then he puts his guy totally. And, and, you know, the thing about those in those kinds of genre movies, the guy doesn't usually come back from that. Nope. It's like you had a chance at living like happily ever after, but this one last job is the thing that, and so like, I think you're meant to be worried about that when you're hearing this story, that like, after all this, he's going to end up dying because, you know, one of the suitor's dads. Yeah. But Bobby De Niro did not have Zeus raining down thunderbolts on his side.

42:39And Athena, yeah, appealing for him. So. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. No, no, no, that's good. And, you know, you see so many of these things just come from here. Yeah. These genre tropes. And even if they didn't. Yeah. They're coming from the common source. The fount. Yeah. You are a Jungian at heart now and forever. So, yeah. And then Agamemnon talks to Achilles and then also Amphimidon, who just tells him everything of what happened, you know, in all detail.

43:11Agamemnon says, lucky you, cunning Odysseus. You got yourself a wife of great women. Unlike my wife. So funny. Her story will be hateful. She will bring bad reputation to all other women, even the good ones. And then finally, that's the last we hear of Agamemnon. But what do you make of the decision to bring the suitors there and to have that? It is funny. Like, you could not have this entire scene. You could. But I like it just because it just reminds you that there's always, like, there's the victims.

43:42Like, these were people with actual lives and they made bad decisions. But, like, they probably thought their decisions weren't that bad. So, I kind of liked hearing from them and, like, getting that perspective. You know? And that's the nice suitor, too. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. And I like that he's not complaining about it. You know? He's just saying, yeah, this is what happened and this is the risk we took. And you got to accept it's like Mbappe after getting his ass kicked by Spain. Like, you get the glory when you win, but when you lose, you have to eat shit. So, I'm going to have to eat a lot of shit right now.

44:13Like, at least he's owning it.

Odysseus tests his father

44:15Yeah.

Odysseus tests his father

44:16So, then we go to the scene with the father. Odysseus is going out to Laertes and it's just the test. I mean, he sees his father burdened, worn by age, and he just starts weeping, but then thinks it's best to test him with teasing and abuse. It's just, it's bizarre. And I think, like, we talk, I don't know if you have anything more to say about it. The only thing I can say is that, was I right to think that he kind of aborted it when he

44:47saw the thick black of grief, the cloud of black grief, where, like, I thought maybe he was going to continue asking him questions, but, like, couldn't. Like, I like to think there was a little kindness shown there, or, like, aborting the mission. I would say I agree and I don't, because he first does the thing, you know, like, you look like someone who would bathe and eat and sleep on fluffy pillows. So, he does that whole thing. And so, what's the deal with how you look and all that? And it says, his father answered through his tears, yes, strangers, you have reached Ithaca,

45:21but cruel men have taken over here. So, he's already crying there. And then Laertes says, so, who are you? Like, he does the Zinnia thing. He asks them some questions, because they've already eaten, so he can do that. And in response to that, it says, lying Odysseus replied, I will tell you the truth completely. So, he says he's coming from Sicily. Now, that means a lot more to me, now that I was just there. You've been into Sicily and Ithaca, though.

45:51Yes, Sicily and Ithaca and Syracuse. And Syracuse and Syracuse. Yeah, I flew into Syracuse. But, yeah, that's why I've got this, like, yeah, he went on for longer than I would be comfortable with, but he starts telling him that fucking lie, like, about, like, who he is. But then, it doesn't go anywhere. Like, I thought he was going to, like, go more with that backstory. Yes. But then, as you say, he sees this black grief. And then he takes, like, as she dusts and just starts throwing it on his head and sobbing.

46:25And then, finally, Odysseus breaks and Laertes asks him to show a sign. And, again, I think the sign is really, it's so domestic. It's so, I am a king of this island. Like, I know all the trees. There are a lot of trees that were promised to him. And Laertes recognizes him. I mean, it's very dramatic. Yeah, it's also funny because I think to myself, like, having been raised in, like, the suburbs and not really have, like, would it be the equivalent of asking me where the Taco Bell was when I was in high school?

46:57You know? Yeah. Like, how, because, like, I'm sure he would have known the land like the back of his hand. And the scar, of course. Yeah, and the scar, he describes.

Three generations prepare for battle

47:07So, yeah, then, meanwhile, there's a town meeting where they kind of have figured out, thanks to rumor, the God rumor, that their kids might not be alive anymore. And, you know, some people are saying, like, what do you expect? Mentor saying that, but also some other old grizzled Ithacan. But then the father of Antinous, you know, like, he whips them all up and wins the day. So some of them decide, nah, I'm sitting this one out. But he gets enough people to go. And it's like, you know, one of those mob scenes, you know, with, like, torches trying to go and find this person.

47:44And, of course, they would outnumber all of them. They have a few more fighters on Team Odysseus. That's why he was arming himself up. Yeah. And then that's so great. They all just, three generations of Ithacan royalty just start suiting up and ready to face the music. Such a movie scene. It's beautiful. And then that exchange between Telemachus and Odysseus is super interesting and I think charged, right? So Odysseus, when all the people are coming, you see them on the horizon, you know, and they're armed.

48:20And this is the battle is about to start. He says, dear son, soon you will have the experience of fighting in battle, the true test of worth. You must not shame your father's family for years who have been known around the world for courage and manliness. And Telemachus' response is, just watch me, father, if you want to see my spirit. I will bring no shame onto your family. You should not speak of shame. And that last line, you should not speak of shame, I think is like, I don't want to hear shit from you.

48:52You didn't turn me into this warrior than I am. Where were you? So if we're going to be talking about shame, like hold up a mirror here. I mean, I don't know. Did you read it that way? I hadn't originally read it that way, but I like it because it seems like a sneaky way to say, yes, you remember who was gone for 20 years and had his son raised. I mean, I don't know if it's proper to say that Odysseus did anything shameful. So that's why I read it like there is no shame here.

49:22Like get it out of your mind that there will be shame here. Like it's not worth bringing it up. It's like we don't talk about losing. Only losers talk about losing. But I like the like, if there's any shame that's here, it's not on this end, buddy. Exactly. And, you know, I think there might be a little shame because as Antinous' father said, he took many good men off to sail with him and lost the ships and killed the men. That's true. And so it's not just the suitors' families that don't have live sons because of Odysseus.

49:53It's a lot of people who went with him. And, you know, like it's in some ways not his fault, but in some ways it's absolutely his fault. He's the king. He was the general. And then I also like that Laertes is like, this is awesome, you know, like son and grandson warring each other for achievement. And Athena gives him the honor of having the first and only kill. And Antinous' father is felled. And then Athena, with the help of Zeus, stops it.

50:24And you could see that Odysseus was ready to just keep the slaughter going until Athena stops him there. Which is interesting because you do get this sense that like you could have had the story just end with completely preemptively. You could have had Zeus and Athena just be like, we've issued a decree, no one will ever touch Odysseus and his family again. But they like go through the motions of having to like suit up and actually do a kill. And that's when they stop it.

50:55Yeah. Why do you think like, why did they need to make that threat a real threat for the story and not just end with like Zeus saying like, no, there'll be no killing. Well, I think part of it is for Laertes to see Telemachus and Odysseus like fighting and like all three of them, the three generations. But also after Athena stops them, Odysseus doesn't listen, though. They all try to run and unwavering Odysseus let out a dreadful roar and then crouched and swooped upon them, just like an eagle flying from above.

51:28And then Zeus has to send the thunderbolt, which kind of pisses off Athena, I think. She looks at him and says, you're adaptable. Like, don't fuck this up at this stage. So I think it also just shows how quickly Odysseus can be like, just lose himself and get back in that warrior mode right now. And like, I think he needed God intervention or else the bloodshed would have just continued. Yeah. As I was asking the question and you were answering, I thought one reading could be that Odysseus

52:03is actually being clever here, where it's not just that he's losing control and needs intervention. It's that this island of people who are going to essentially like have to make the decision, are we going to accept him back as our king, need to have the fear put in them that these three men are capable of fully taking over anybody should they ever test him. Because if they weren't given that initial impulse, and I'm thinking that Odysseus also launching is like, all right, I know they saw Laertes do it, but they need to know, like,

52:37I'm king again, like, it will take a god to stop me if you piss me off, in a very Bob Frank-like way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, it always leaves open the possibility that the gods are more metaphorical. The fact that Athena makes this warring side swear solemn oaths of peace for the future, still in her guise as mentor. So you could read this as, it's just mentor doing it. So then, like, exactly what you're saying, it needed to happen. And they needed to see that Odysseus was not someone that it was worth fucking with.

53:10Yeah. Because it would cost them their lives, like it cost their sons their lives. So, yeah, I like that. What an important part of that story is that there was nobody left alive. You know how, like, sometimes they do the smart thing and leave one guy alive and say, go tell everybody I fucked up. You know, they didn't leave anybody alive. Yeah. So, like, they could speculate, oh, it must have been just, you know, like the act of a god or something. No, Odysseus is like, you need to know that it was me. And it reminds me of when Tony Soprano is back from his, like, shooting and he has to, like, he just picks a guy and just beats the shit out of him.

53:43Like, he needs people to remember that. Yeah. And maybe that's why Antinous' father has to die. And he was the worst suitor. Yeah. And so, that's a perfect symbol for, like, you know, I think there is still an open question. Did they get what was coming to them exactly? But either way, you're not going to win is the message. Yeah. So, you've got to come to terms with it. You have to accept it.

Was the journey worth it

54:06Yeah.

Was the journey worth it

54:07One of my last questions for you is one that we brought up earlier, which is, do you think it was worth it for Odysseus? And I think the reason, like, in book 24 that this question gets highlighted is when Agamemnon says almost offhandedly in his description to the nice suitor, you know, we had to work really hard to convince Odysseus to join the war.

54:36They had to do a big, long trip to come to Ithaca and convince him. And that was a tall task. And he almost said no. So, and there are, if you look at the notes, Emily Wilson has a note where she says, this was a big thing as part of this legend is that initial decision that Odysseus makes. And that in some versions of that story, Odysseus pretends to be crazy so that they think, oh, it's not worth it. He's gone cuckoo. And he never goes.

55:07Well, no, I think it gets foiled somehow. I was like, are these like alternate universe? Have they been telling alternate dimension stories this whole time? No, right. I mean, there's always a little, everyone tells stories in their own way, but it's more like, I think the beat of him going is always in the stories. But I think they're trying to emphasize, and that story emphasizes a different version of this tale, that it was a really close call. Which I just think highlights the possibility of this whole thing being as somewhat happy

55:41as it's ended up, although with a lot of people dead and a lot of time wasted. Like, again, it's just this ambivalence about this life. We contrasted it way back in the early books with the Phaeacians who never leave. Or if they leave, they immediately zip right back in their light speed boat. But that has its own issues. And here, I think it's just highlighting the cost of this, even in a case where he did eventually come home and didn't get immediately killed by a scheming wife.

56:13Yeah. You know, my gut is, of course, it wasn't worth it because that's a lot of pain and suffering that throughout the whole book they've been wishing they didn't experience. And to me, it's more like, given that you're fated to have engaged in this ill-conceived battle that wasn't even really your war, it's unclear why. Given that that happened, like, what kind of a man are you going to be? Like, the journey is important because of what it shows about what kind of person you can be despite the terrible things that happened to Odysseus, despite the terrible things that

56:47happened to you and to me and to everybody around. Like, this is a story that is interesting because it's telling you, maybe, don't get into these things to begin with. Don't start a land war in Asia. Exactly. But some form of the Odyssey is going to come for us all. Like, those Fasians, you can't live that long that way. Yeah. Somebody will come for them if they're not going out for somebody else. That's right. So that's number one. And then number two, obviously, like, we're not reading this epic and talking about Odysseus

57:20if he hadn't gone. And so for people who are very concerned with legacy and glory, you know, the kleos is the Greek word for everlasting glory, that the bards will be singing your name. You know, Roshana, the professor here at Cornell, who was over for dinner last night, she's also, I guess, associated with the classics department. And they do, like, a 24-hour reading of the Odyssey. There were random people go up and read for 15 minutes.

57:50Yeah. They're still telling this story. So that's part of it. But I also think it's just, it's a question you ask after every war, even the so-called good wars that you win. Like Vietnam. Yeah. Right. Where everything, like, it was totally worth it. No, it's, there is that question, you know, like, you read Slaughterhouse-Five, Kurt Vonnegut talking about World War II. Like, that's, you know, of all the wars that America's fought, that's the one you could make the best case for, it being, like, a war that was worth all the suffering that

58:23it caused. But I think even in a war like that, even where it's, quote unquote, successful, the costs are so enormous that there has to be, if you're like a human being, some deep, deep ambivalence about whether the benefits outweighed the cost. And the both are so extreme in this case, I think. And it's just a good way to present to somebody, say, like a young, like early in their life to say, like, look, we wouldn't be telling this guy's story if it weren't for all that

58:54he went through. But it's a moral tale of some sort, where is that the life you want to lead? And take your choice. Go in knowing full well that, like, some roads lead to misery and some roads lead to comfort. What kind of odyssey do you want to have? Yeah. And that's wisdom, you know. That's why this, it's not just, you know, a metaphor for other wars. It's a metaphor for literally just living your life. How much adventure do you want to have? How many great stories do you want to tell in your life, you know, when you're old to

59:27your grandkids? But you do that and maybe you die. You know, maybe you die climbing a mountain or deep sea diving or something like that. Or maybe you die in war. Maybe it's a... You die writing really shitty philosophy that people talk about, but they'll stop talking about in 10 years. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and so this is a question that haunts us all. And it's not a decision you just make for you either. Other people are going to be affected. And this certainly highlights that as well.

59:58Yeah. This is why we haven't stopped doing very bad wizards. Just very concerned with our legacy, no matter how many people we've killed along the way. Yeah. A lot of podcasts are just destroyed. They listen to us and they're like, well, we can't do this anymore. It's like a little circle of hell where they all get together. They're like... And I feel terrible about that. That weighs on, I think, both of us. Yeah. All the podcasts that we've just left in our wake. But it's, I think, so important because people will be talking about very bad wizards in 2,000 years.

1:00:30Amen, brother. Any final thoughts?

Signing off from Ithaca

1:00:34No, because I'm hoping we have one more to think about final thoughts, even though it might have a gimmick of a cast, like I'll have more, you know. Yeah. I want to wrap my head around the text as a whole as well. Yeah, I got to sit with it. All right. Join us next time on The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters.

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