The Lotus Eaters Episode 5: Circe, Cyclops, and Psychedelics (Oh My!)

Introduction to the series

0:00Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to the Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content, and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us.

0:40So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

0:52Let's get to the episode.

Books nine and ten overview

1:22Welcome to another episode of the Lotus Eaters, a podcast on Homer's Odyssey. We cover two books per episode, and we are on books nine and ten. This is the first part of the Odyssey that everyone kind of remembers. This is Odysseus telling the story of his adventures since the Trojan War, getting us caught up on what has happened that led him ultimately to the Phoeci Islands ten years after the war was over.

2:02So this is where we're going to learn a lot about how he arrived at the destination that we already have been with him at for a while. So it's an interesting structure to do it like this. And in these two books, you get a bunch of very famous things. You get the Lotus Eaters, which inspired the name of this podcast. You get, probably most famously, the Cyclops or the... Keyclops. Yeah.

2:33The Keyclops. You get the Sycones, Sycones. You get Cersei, the goddess Cersei. You get, although I always forget about them, every time I revisit the Odyssey, I was like, oh yeah, the last Stradigonians, those big mountain people. And, you know, maybe most tragically, we'll see Odysseus get so, so close to Ithaca that he can see people burning fires on the land only to be blown back out to sea for another nine and a half years or whatever.

3:09It's brutal. Yeah. Absolutely brutal. It's like when you're waiting on a tarmac for like an hour and a half. Totally. And then you start to just see, like you think the tarmac's moving, but it's just the plane next to you that was moving. You're just stuck. Must be what Odysseus was feeling when he saw the fires. That's a good metaphor. Like that's a kind of Homeric simile you might see. Yeah. I was excited because this is, of course, having never read the Odyssey before, this is everything, like you were saying, everything that you hear about the Odyssey in like popular culture.

3:44And I was just like eating it all up. I was like a cyclops in my cave, chewing on it. Binge reading. Exactly. The overwhelming feeling I got, like what you were describing when he gets to that despair of seeing Ithaca. But also just, you know, we are currently in the Phaeacians, like Hall, and he's telling the story. So I really did feel like, I think we mentioned this before, but it just, it was like that kind of trope, the Sunset Boulevard. Like you might imagine what got me here.

4:16But you get the sense of like, okay, what broke this man? And it wasn't just the war. It's like the hope, the hope that he's slowly been losing this whole time. Because you imagine like in war, you're focused. You don't have that much time to like despair for things that are going on. You're just surviving. You finish the war and you have this hope of like getting home. And this is just like what has happened in 10 years to like slowly break this man to the point where he's weeping openly. Yeah. Although it seems like they were doing plenty of weeping beforehand.

4:50But yes, I totally agree with what you're saying. Like how did he get to this just sob ridden, diminished state that he's in with still flashes of his earlier self, but really just flashes. Right. Because he was even like chastising his men for crying. Remember? Yes. Like he was kind of the hard one. And now. Now, yes. He's like, maybe they were right. But now anything, you know, you put him in front of like as good as it gets and he's going to be a basket case. But yeah. So like we're getting a sense of how Odysseus became the Odysseus as we're seeing him right now.

5:27But at the same time, also seeing him try to like reclaim his identity to some degree. Now, what that means, I think, is kind of open ended. Yeah. What do you think the decision to structure the text like this, like what does it allow the text to accomplish that it might not otherwise? So first you got Telemachus and his adventures. Then we finally meet Odysseus kind of roughly at the same time as what's going on with Telemachus. And we get four books of him on the Phoecian Island.

6:00I guess we're getting a glimpse into how he is right now. And then the decision to only now tell the stories of how he got to this point. Because you could have just told it chronologically the whole way. And that's not what happens. And instead, to like round out the first half of the text, we only get the story of his adventures now. And from his perspective, like told first personally. Right. Yeah.

The non-linear storytelling structure

6:28What do you think about the structure and what it allows? You know, my thoughts aren't too sophisticated about it, given it's my first reading. But here's like a couple of things that were popping in my head as I've been reading it. One is, it's such bullshit to attribute this to modern storytelling, to like the non-linear aspect. Like as if somehow within the last hundred years, we've figured out that story structure is sometimes best suited in non-linear ways. I also keep thinking about like what would it be like to be around a campfire and listening to this.

7:00And like the growing action of the story. And hitting this like almost midway point where you start getting some of the most intense action. And like the timing is great. Like it's the way to tell an enjoyable story. Like they've built it up in such a way that it's just like, you know, it's obviously kind of a brilliant way to tell a story. You don't shoot your shot. You don't shoot your load early on. And like it helps for us to know like who he is already. Like I have some intimacy with Odysseus.

7:32And like part of that intimacy didn't start until after the Telemachus saga or whatever. But that was one way of getting to know him. Like it was like a distant way. Like then we're getting a little closer. And now we're like at the heart. Like so this is a physical journey. We're like in his mind. Now we're in the intra-psychic journey. Yeah, I like that. First of all, just on the like arc of a good story. It's true. Like chronologically, these books are the earliest of any of them. Aside from like just brief stories that people will tell of the Trojan War.

8:03And this is where so much of the exciting stuff happens. So if you put that first, then you would get the Phaeacians and then him on Ithaca kind of planning. You would get this whole massive ocean of not much happening except, you know, really interesting stuff psychologically. But to put this later, I think from a storytelling rhythm is kind of ideal in that way. And you can imagine that if this was a story that had been told for a thousand years or so before it even got written down.

8:35That what you would have is a bunch of people telling the story and you would almost get like a natural selection for what the best way of telling it is. And you can just imagine the first guy to be like, maybe I'll start actually with Telemachus. Like, let's see how that will work. Yeah, their little like writer's room, composer room. Yeah, totally with their index cards. What if we put... Do this. Move that there.

9:03I love that beat. There's a couple other interesting things. One is, it's one thing to hear these stories when he's in full glory mode. It's another thing to hear these stories when we have already been intimately presented with the cost of those stories. And we're seeing that this isn't somebody who came out of all these adventures just a champion, like holding up the belt. That's not at all what happened. This is a guy who, as long as we've seen him, has been weeping, talking about how much he's suffered.

9:35Occasionally he can get pushed too far, so he'll fuck people up in a discus throwing contest. But for the most part, we've already seen what this led to and we're ambivalent about that at best. It's a different tone than that kind of colors how we're going to see these adventures. And then it's a really interesting choice and I think necessary for him to have to tell the story from a first-person perspective because he wouldn't just be telling that to himself as he was doing it, right?

10:06So because you're doing it this way, he has to be the one to tell the story, you know, like there's potential unreliable narrator or at the very least maybe rationalizing that he's doing. But at other times, he's very hard on himself during these stories. So that's just another layer, another level of analysis that you have to take into account that this is coming from him. Unlike the rest of the story, which comes from a kind of omniscient perspective, this is purely Odysseus telling the story.

10:36Right, right. And then Cersei was like, oh yeah, I want to fuck you, yeah. Sure, buddy. That would be funny if they discovered this part of book 23 where it's just like, oh, I made all this shit up for the Phoecians because I wanted to give him a good story before I left. None of that happened.

10:58But I like what you said about the cost. Like I hadn't really thought about that. But as you said it, I was like, oh, psychologically, it's such a different feel when I'm reading like how he's talking shit to the Cyclops, knowing already the tragedy that has occurred. Like I see those moments for what they are, like a flawed character who doesn't know when to shut up, where I would not necessarily see that. Like I would have to wait until after that moment to know what the consequences were.

11:29Yeah, and that's just a totally different like storytelling dynamic. And I think this works better, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

A complicated hero

11:37You know, as we record, like you and I spoke a couple days ago about like, you know, online or on Twitter, there was some renewed chatter about this translation. Yeah. And people always focus on the opening line to tell me about A Complicated Man and compare it to the other translations. And one of the things that I saw people saying is like, oh, it's downplaying Odysseus as a hero, you know, by like, Complicated doesn't sound nearly as heroic, which I guess is true. But when I was reading these two books, I was like, no, Complicated is right.

12:07Yeah. Like this is a complicated man. Like anybody who thinks that you can read this and just think that he is like unconditionally heroic in any, you know, straightforward sense of the word is just wrong. Like this is a man who is complicated in the negative ways, too. Like he just makes mistakes. His gifts are his curses, too. Yes. Yeah. No, I think when people make that complaint about this translation, I highly doubt that they've read the Odyssey in any translation. Because, you know, this is the last translation that I've read.

12:38But for the first like 12 years or whatever, I was reading all the ones that they like. And it's so blindingly obvious in those translations that Odysseus is a flawed character and that, you know, he can be heroic. But it's always open to question just how good of a person. Even the Greeks viewed him this way. All the Greek tragedians would often make him a villain in their plays. So, like, it's not that she's kind of doing this revisionist take where she doesn't glorify Odysseus like the text does.

13:13The text definitely doesn't. And no translation of the text would ever show him as anything but a complicated man in that sense. Well, so that makes even more sense why I was going to ask, like, why this section opens by calling him the Lord of Lies. Yeah. Why Odysseus, the Lord of Lies, answered. Yeah. And he even says, I am Odysseus's Larity's son, known for my many clever tricks and lies. So it's like lying is a good thing.

13:43It's like a weapon, I think, in the sense that he's using it there. And I also think it relates to disguises. He's also a Lord of disguise. There was one other thing I wanted to say that I really enjoyed about this section, just sort of thematically, and that is being on the fringes of the world and, like, seeing these creatures that are both physically different, but, like, specifically not human in the moral way.

14:15In, like, the way that they don't respect, like, gods or laws that humans all seem to just internally know. Like, we just kind of know you don't do that or you don't do this. Yeah. And really has been throughout. Like, he gets close to Ithaca, then back to the fringes, and certainly Calypso's island is even farther fringes. And then the Phaeacians are a kind of fringe island in themselves. So, no wonder he's confused about who he is or whether he even exists, you know, because he's been on the periphery of everything.

14:48Right. But I do think, like we were saying when he first got to Phaeacian, and it makes even more sense to me now that, like, finally when he gets there and he's like, oh, these are humans. Like, my human rules might work here. Right. It makes even, that's even a stronger sense after you see what he's been through before. Yes. I didn't think of that. But, yeah, like, he doesn't go to anywhere where there's humans. Really, except maybe the first place, which are the Ciccones. I get the sense they're human, and they do very human things. They siege and attack their town, sack them, take their women.

15:21But then parts of his crew, and here I think he still has 12 ships left. Yeah. Right. We're going to see that dwindle. It's going to dwindle. But, yeah, some of them are, they're no good. Yeah. And they drink excessively, and they're killing sheep and cattle, which gives the Ciccones time to call some reinforcements. And also seems to have pissed off Zeus, because after they get out of them, not without casualties, Zeus sends them out.

15:52And, like, this is it. Like, now they're off to weirdo land. Yeah.

The encounter with the Cicones

15:59And if we're going to start going through it all, like, I don't know how this would have been, like, read back then. Because, obviously, the rules of what, you know, like, war and the sacking of towns and taking of wives and all that was different. But you really, at this point, I'm like, I can't blame the Ciccones. Like, this seemed pretty unprovoked. It just seems like they're still in, like, the war mindset. Yeah. And they can't shake that. So they're like, oh, let's murder these guys and take their wives. Yeah, no, I think that's how it was. Like, you know, you go to war.

16:29It's this huge expense and cost of your life. If you see some little island, do you think you can take down and get some more slaves? And, you know, they do think of it as glory. Like, the more treasures they get and the more slaves they get, that's kind of part of their honor. It's like the garras, the tangible part of their honor. And so they do it. Yeah. And I wasn't sure whether Zeus was mad because it was unprovoked. Like, you know, I don't know how much my moral, like, reading is influencing my reading of this.

17:00But it doesn't really explain why Zeus hurled Northwind into their ship. And he says, before that, he says, then Zeus gave us bad luck. Poor us.

17:11Oh, poor you. It's like with your soprano. Yeah. But it's like, with Zeus punishing them, why are you calling this luck when your men were just, like, should have gotten the hell out of there? That's not, like, a bad luck. Very on theme for Odysseus.

The Lotus Eaters

17:27Yeah.

The Lotus Eaters

17:28And then they go to the land of the lotus eaters. And I guess there are humans on the lotus eater island, but it seems like they're the kind of humans you would meet in, like, a heroin den or something. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The scouts encountered humans, lotus eaters, who did not hurt them. I mean, they're good. They're just good guys. They just shared with them their sweet, delicious fruit. But as they ate it, they lost the will to come back and bring news to me. They wanted only to stay there, feeding on lotus with the lotus eaters.

17:59They had forgotten home. They had what I will coin right now. They had a transformative experience. Yes, that's right. But also, is this kind of clearly a metaphor for some kind of addictive drug? I took it more to be, like, don't forget where you're from. You know, of course it's a drug. But, like, I don't know what their notions of addiction would have even been at that time. I guess that's what it evokes to me the most. Now, for sure. Yeah. Because even the idea for getting home, like, the only thing that matters is you taking that drug and just blissing out to the point where you're not you.

18:36You are just pure whatever pleasure this is. Yeah. He drags them back in tears. Yeah. And ties them up. Tying up to, like, control yourself is—that'll come back later.

Meeting Polyphemus the Cyclops

18:50Yeah.

Meeting Polyphemus the Cyclops

18:51So then they go and they end up with the Cyclops. They stumble on the Cyclops Island and they seem to know some stuff about them. This is what I was thinking about, like, the fringes, like, even the moral fringes, where he's describing the county of the Reckless Cyclops, lacking in customs. They hold no councils, have no common laws, but live in caves on lofty mountaintops and each makes laws for his own wife and children without concern for what the others think. Which is so not human, right?

19:21We care so much what other people think. Yeah, it's like this kind of Ayn Rand individualist, like, fantasy. It is interesting that they are so convinced that the gods love them, but they also couldn't give two shits about the gods and following any of their orders. Okay, so then—but Odysseus has heard about them and he wants to find out more. So he's in real curious mode here. He's like, I've heard that they are wild, lawless aggressors. I want to know if they are that, or are they the type to welcome strangers and fear the gods?

19:56Yeah, it's like, why is that a hypothesis that you want to test? Yeah. So then he gets, like, on this cliff and he looks over and he sees the massive man who shepherded his flocks all by himself. He did not go to visit other people, but kept apart and did not know the ways of custom. In his build he was a wonder, a giant, not like men who live on bread, but like a wooded peak in airy mountains, rising above the rest. Yeah, so that's your first glimpse into Polyphemus.

20:28That's the name of this cyclops. And he seems like, even for a cyclops, like, he wants nothing to do with everybody. He's just happy doing his own thing with his sheep. And Odysseus, even though this guy is—like, how big do you think he is? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what giant means to them. Like, I would assume like a seven-footer. I would assume he's like a shack, like shack with one eye. You know, I've thought that for a while, but if you look at paintings, I think it's like much, much bigger than that.

21:00Oh, really? Yeah, I think he is like, you know, he would be like five stories high or something like that. Like the Iron Giant or something size. Like Jack and the Beanstalk. Yeah, no, but really, like I think, which is weird, it just kind of reconceptualizes how— I've always thought he was like, yeah, it's like Andre the Giant or, you know, like something like that. I guess he has to be big to like grab a human by one hand and like just eat him up. Yeah, which he'll do, yeah, constantly. But then also it's like, how do you manipulate the sheep? There's some other questions I have.

21:32You're questioning whether this is based on a true story. You should go on Reddit. I'm like, actually, like, so, yeah, Odysseus says, yeah, let's go check this out. He brings really strong wine. Chekhov's really strong wine. And he grabs his favorite men, 12 of them, but the Cyclops isn't there. He goes into his cave. And it's interesting, the coup, he says, my crew begged, let us grab some cheese and quickly drive the kids and lambs out of their pen and down to our swift ships and sail away across the salty water.

22:07That would have been the better choice, but I refused. I hoped to see him and find out if he would give us gifts. In fact, he brought no joy to my companion. You think about these, the customs, the Xenia, like what it is to be a good host. You don't think about people kind of like looking forward to like, ha ha, he's going to have to give me gifts. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go see him. He's going to have to give me gifts. No, totally. And Xenia has rules for the guests as well as the hosts. And one of them isn't that you just go in there and start drinking and eating their cheese while they're out.

22:42So he's not following any rules either. And he certainly has no reason to think that the Cyclops is. And yeah, like, is that really what this is about? He wants the gifts. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it's also, again, one of the things that probably makes him good and interesting, which is his curiosity and his desire to see these new lands. Yeah. I do think he's like, I mean, I've heard they're really inhospitable. I got to see this for myself kind of thing, too.

23:12He's not even going to give us gifts? Like, that would be crazy. And then they all immediately, like, hide when he comes back. And I guess the miscalculation was they didn't think he would put a massive rock in front of the, so they really have no escape. Right. Here they're gassed on winning the Trojan War, having just, like, sacked the Sikonis. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's right. Like, they are coming off on a war high right now.

23:42And especially Odysseus as their leader and the guy who, like, you know, pretty much came up with the idea to put the nail in the coffin and beat them after 10 years. So you could understand him having a little hubris at this point. Yeah. But no hubris like what the Cyclops has, Polyphemus has, when he says, foreigner, you're a fool or from some very distant country. You order me to fear the gods? My people think nothing of that Zeus with his big scepter, nor any god. Our strength is more than theirs. If I spare you or spare your friends, it will not be out of fear of Zeus.

24:15I do the bidding of my own heart. Which is like some cold-blooded shit to say to a person right before you eat them. Yeah, and I like that. He wants it to be clear that even if, like, he decides not to eat them, which is, it turns out, you know, not the case, that he'll still only do that because he wanted to do it, not because of Zeus's code or whatever the fuck. Xenia. I piss on Xenia. And yet, like, I don't understand why the gods put up with this. I don't either, other than since it's Poseidon's son, like, maybe they're just like, all right, we can't.

24:48We can't, like, mess with him. I guess. But in here's where he lies. So, so, Plofima says, but are you going far in that fine ship of yours or somewhere near? He spoke to test me, but I saw right through him. I know how these things work. I answered him deceitfully. Poseidon, the earth shaker, shipwrecked me at the far end of your island. He pushed us in. Wind dashed us on the rocks. We barely managed to survive. So he's, like, hiding the fact that they came, like, willingly to explore? Yeah. A, it's that. B, it's that if the Cyclops thought he had a whole ship with supplies, like, a bunch of ships with supplies and all of that.

25:19That he would just go, like, that he would get them. He does kind of come correct at first, sort of. Actually, I guess they just get exposed. And then he supplicates. Now we beg you here at your knees to grant a gift as is the norm for hosts and guests. Please, my sir, respect the gods. And then that's where the reply comes from afterwards. But, again, I think that's just part of, like, I want to see if this guy really doesn't follow the rules. And he definitely, he fucks around and finds out.

25:52And this, like, even startled me. You know, I knew that the Cyclops killed his men. But the description where he says, but he made no reply and showed no mercy. Leaping up high, he reached his hand toward my men, seized two, and knocked them hard against the ground like puppies. And the floor was wet with brains. He ripped them limb by limb to make his meal. Then ate them like a lion on the mountains, devouring flesh and trails and marrow bones and leaving nothing. Yeah. That's a hardcore man. That is. Yeah. Like, what are they doing to puppies in Homer's time?

26:25Like, who does that to a puppy? But it does evoke just a horrible, like, carnage. Oh, man. This is the Phoecians are probably thinking, this is why we don't leave home as they're hearing this. Also, this is one of the things I forgot to mention last episode. But, you know, they're all related. The Cyclops, they mention the island of the Cyclops. They know about them. And they're all Poseidon's children. Yeah. Another, you know, tick in the, this is all an intra-psychic thing, you know, because that's a huge coincidence that the Cyclops would be related to the Phoecians.

26:59Right. And that they have a history. So, yeah. So, he eats two of them. So, they just stay there in the cave. And then the guy gets up. That's crazy because he's like, it's not like he's in a rage and kills them all. No. They're stuck in there. So, he's just toying with them. Like, that's my breakfast. I'll have a couple of them. Totally. No, he's doing his, like, early morning chores. You know, like, he gets up, he milks every lamb one by one, and then grabs two men and makes a meal out of them. It's like his morning routine. Like, I have a cup of coffee. I'm now going to eat these two guys that came into my cave.

27:31So, then Odysseus has a plan. First, he gets them very drunk. He had taken, like, smartly those 12 jars of that super strong wine. Yeah. And now he's like, Cyclops can't be too bright. He's like, hey, buddy, let's just have a drink together. Yeah. It's funny. I really get, like, a sense of this guy's personality. He's like a vicious guy, but he'll also, you know, have a drink with the people he's going to kill. And if he likes the guy, he'll talk to him.

28:02He'll joke around with them. Yeah. And this is where Cyclops asks him what his name is. And so, finally, he says, all right, you asked me. My name is No Man. My family and friends all call me No Man. And so, he says, okay, well, you know what? With this wine and you telling me that, I'll eat you last. First, I'll eat the other men. That's my gift to you. That's very funny. I never noticed that. That's my gift to you. That's the gift I'm giving you.

28:34All right. Zeus, are you happy? I'm giving my guest a gift.

28:40I like how it describes him as, like, he's so drunk that he starts throwing up and chunks of human flesh start coming out. Oh, I love that description. In drunken heaviness, he spewed wine from his throat and chunks of human flesh. Yeah. He takes his walking stick and cuts it to be, like, a stake and puts it into the flame. He picks one other guy and they both, yeah, I think they have to, like, climb him or something. They climb him and they can't just, like, drive it in with one shot.

29:13They have to, like, kind of screw it in. Yeah. It's like it's a mast from the boat, like the central. Yeah. And then he's screaming and yelling and this must be just deafening, especially in the cave. And then all the other people say, Polyphemus, what's the matter? Are you hurt? Why are you screaming through the holy night and keeping us awake? That's what they're really, someone stealing the herds, trying to kill you. What's going on? And then strong Polyphemus from inside replies, my friends, no man is killing me by tricks, not force. And then they're all like, oh, so you're sick.

29:45If no man, if no one is hurting you. Very famous trick that Odysseus pulls. That goes in the Cleos category for him, for sure. Like, it's one, along with the Trojan horse, one of his most famously clever tricks. Totally. So he is proud of himself. Yeah, even though he got six of his men killed, he's still proud of himself. He also, another little trick to get them out, because they still can't move the boulder. Right. So when he wakes up, the Cyclops, he has no interest in letting them escape, but he does have to get his sheep out.

30:20And so he comes up with the idea, and there are paintings of this, of all the men and him tied under the sheep as they're being let out. And since the Cyclops can't see anymore, he doesn't notice them, and that allows them to escape. So everything's good. They escaped. Sorry about the guys, but at least there won't be any further consequences.

The escape and the taunt

30:44Yeah. So they get back to their ship. They do a little crying. Yeah. As one does. And here's where Odysseus orders them to stop their crying. Yeah. Scowling hard at each. And then he says, when I had gone as far as shouts can carry, as they're sailing away, he says, Hey, you Cyclops idiot. The crew trapped in your cave did not belong to some poor weakling. Well, you had it coming. You had no shame at eating your guests. So Zeus and the other gods have paid you back.

31:16My taunting made him angrier. He ripped a rock out of the hill and hurled it at us. It landed right in front of our dark prowl and almost crushed the tip of the steering oar. And then he's like, row fast to save your lives to his friends. And they're all telling him, like, what the fuck are you doing? Are you fucking crazy? What's wrong with you? Oh, I love that. Just the oh shit moment that you would have when you see him pick up a rock. And you're like, no, you can't. There's no way, right?

31:45Oh, fuck. Go, go, go. So they're like, yeah, why are you doing this? And his response, the way he describes it, but my tough heart was not convinced. I was still furious and shouted back again, Cyclops, if any mortal asks you how your eye was mutilated and made blind, say that Odysseus, the city sacker, Laertes' son, who lives in Ithaca, destroyed your sight. He's giving him, like, his zip code. His, like, phone number. Exactly.

32:16It's really not the smartest thing that he does. But I do think it's that fury of, like, the fact of what he's been put through, the lost men, and the fact that, like, he wants this to be known. It was an awesome trick that he pulled. And, like, I think he can't stomach the idea that people wouldn't know that it was Odysseus who did that. Yeah. And contrast this with his reluctance to say his name now by the time he gets to the Phoecians, you know. Yeah. Also interesting that he identifies himself as the city sacker.

32:49Yeah. I mean, accurate, as we saw, but, like, you know, that's not how he would describe himself when we see him. Right. And then I also like, and it's a funny kind of ironic coda, is that when he hears this, the Cyclops tells of this prophecy. He says, it's come true at last. This prophet told him that Odysseus' hands would make me lose my sight. I always thought someone tall and handsome, strong and brave would come to me. But now this little weakling, this little nobody has blinded me.

33:22By wine, he got the best of me. Come on, Odysseus, and let me give you gifts and ask Poseidon's help to get you home. I am his son. The God is proud to be my father. So I love that, like, once Odysseus says that, he's like, I always thought it would be someone actually good and strong that would beat me. A lot shorter in real life. Instead, this little nobody, this weakling, does it. Oh, man. And then to find out then that it's like, you know what? No problem. Like, I'll just pray to Poseidon. By the way, my father, who will help you?

33:52And he says, grant that Odysseus, the city sacker, will never get back home. Or if it is fated that he will see his family, then let him get there late and with no honor in pain and lacking ships and having caused the death of all his men and let him find more trouble in his own house. Which is really interesting because, again, like this is Odysseus telling the story and you just get the sense, like, this is what he fears, right? He's like, well, the Cyclops might have just said, grant that he never gets back home. But Odysseus is now with Ephesians and is like, you know, got a chance of coming back

34:26home. But he's like, but you know what? The way I'm feeling, like, he might as well have said, but make him go home, like, destroyed with no honor. Yeah. And find more trouble at his house. Yeah. And all of that is traced to this decision to reveal himself. If he had done everything but not revealed himself, none of that would have happened. Poseidon would have had no beef with him. Right. But he did. And that's what's happened. Meanwhile, Polyphemus isn't done throwing boulders at them.

34:57No, he still has one. He still has a couple in them. Yeah. And then he slaughters one of the rams, gives it to Zeus. But the god ignored my offering and planned to ruin all my ships and all my loyal men. So all day long till sunset, we were feasting on meat and drinking strong wine. So, yeah, like, that's kind of interesting that he says Zeus ignored him. It's not Zeus's son, but probably he needs to keep the peace with his brother. I don't know. That's what I assume.

35:27Yeah. I mean, the whole thing of, like, what are the politics going on? Like, that's just so interesting to me. Like, what's actually going on in the divine council and in the divine family? And what do they know about? Like, what are they just attributing incorrectly? What is it like? But sometimes they get it right. Like, Poseidon, it was Poseidon. Yeah. Who fucked him up? Who knows? Yeah. I mean, we don't know how much of that is true. That's definitely his interpretation of what happened that Zeus ignored. But it could also be they didn't get the right wind. And, you know, they always make choices in addition that lead to their downfall.

36:04So a lot of that could just be deflecting responsibility or trying to explain something you have no explanation for. Right. Okay.

The floating island of Aeolus

36:12Book 10. Yeah.

The floating island of Aeolus

36:13A lot goes on in book 10, starting with the floating island of Aeolus. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah. What is a floating island? Like, yeah. It's very Miyazaki, this book in particular, maybe, this part of the story, I think. But I could see a floating island in Miyazaki. He has 12 children that live in the palace, six strong boys and six girls. He arranged their marriage, one sister to each brother.

36:44And they are always feasting there with their parents at a banquet that never ends. So they're like a hyper-distilled version of the feast. You know? Yeah. They all look like Boo Radleys. They're all inbred. It's creepy. What a creepy way to describe, like, in a feast that never ends. It's just, like, so eerie. At night, they sleep beside the wives they love on rope beds piled with blankets. It's like, I think, you know, the way it's described, you might have some, you know, problem with it. But Odysseus is just like, yeah.

37:17You know what's funny, and we'll see this even more in Circe, but he says, we arrived at that fine citadel. He welcomed me and made me stay a month. Like, a month is a long time. I know. But they're just so free with time right now. They don't really know. You know, like, on Phoecia, it's like every day counts. But, like, here it's like I stayed a month. I stayed a year. You know? Yeah. So he gives him a bag of oxide leather that Zeus gave him because he's the steward of the winds. And this bag will just always send them the right way towards Ithaca.

37:53Yeah. And this is that thing that we talked about at the beginning where he, first of all, doesn't tell his men what's in the bag. He also says, I want to steer the whole time because then I'll get home faster if I do it. And here's where they get right to the border of their own land. And we were so near, we saw men tending fires. And right then he falls asleep. And now his men start grumbling to themselves. What's in the bag? And so they open the bag to see if there's treasure there.

38:28And that sends them all the way back to Aeolus' island. Yeah. Again, just seems like a tactical mistake by Odysseus, right? Where it's weird that his, like, I guess it's not weird, right? He's made decisions that have gotten their compatriots killed very recently. So they're like, fuck this. Yeah. Like, why everybody seems to love him. But, like, we're just dying because we're following him. It's a mixed bag, right? He was the one that got people out of the Saccones' island. And so they were the ones who caused the casualties there.

38:59With the lotus eaters also, whether you think this is good or bad, he did drag them away so that they would be able to return home. So, yeah, I think he's been a mixed bag. And they're probably rightly skeptical that he always has their best interests at heart. Yeah. And they were having a moment of weakness. Why doesn't he just tell them what's in the bag? I was thinking about this. I thought probably he didn't even think to tell them, you know? He's, like, the leader. He got a gift. Maybe he could even stoke them.

39:30Like, hey, guess what? Like, don't worry. We're going to get home no matter what. Because, like, when the time comes, I'll open up this little bag. Right. Because it was supposed to be a surprise. Yeah. Right. You guys ruined it. But also maybe he was so focused, like he's saying, you know? Like, I steered the whole time. Like, he was just so concerned with getting home that he didn't even. Like, I kind of read it like the vibe of being a bad leader in the moment. Exactly. That's how I read it as well. That he's not being a good leader.

40:01Part of being a good leader is getting your men, like Mike Rabel, for example, to trust you. And because of that trust, they'll give their life for you. That's not what he's done. And he's done a few things to make them actively distrust him. Yeah. I also think there is something about how close they got that's deeply meaningful. You feel it when you're reading it. You're like, no! Totally. It's the Jews, like, wandering for 40 more years in the desert. Like, it's like, it was right there. Yeah. It was right there.

40:32It's Moses not getting to go into Jerusalem. Even though he was so close. You get to see it. You get to look right at it, but you never get to watch it. That's interesting. That's another one of these archetypical things, I guess, where you have, you're so close, but then you have to do, you know, like Jacob having to work seven years for Rachel. So, and then, nope, another seven. Yeah. That totally is an archetype. I mean, it's like the kind of dream you have where you're just, like, trying to grab the thing that you want, but you can't get your hands around it. Yeah, exactly. I like, so then he goes back and is like, can we get another one of those bags away?

41:08Get the fuck out! It was, like, funny how mad they got. Yeah. Yeah. But, but you think, like, this was, like, the one gift from Zeus. You think we would just grow these gifts from Zeus on the trees? But I think the main reason he gives is that, like, if this happened, you're so hated by the gods that I shouldn't be helping you. I'll get in trouble with them. Yeah. That seems, like, not an uncommon thought. It reminds me of, like, the prophet Jonah in the Bible where there's, like, a storm and they have to cast lots to see, like, who pissed off God that, like, he's sending such a terrible

41:41storm? And, like, Jonah draws the, like, short straw and they just throw him overboard. Yeah. They're like, let's not keep this, this guy with us. Like, if that's who made the gods mad. Yeah. Right. It's a pariah. You don't want them. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a pretty funny thing, though, that he gets so violently angry. You nasty creature. Leave my island. And so then they go to the place I always forget, uh, the Lastragonia. Right. Lastradonians, I don't have a ton to say about. They're more huge giants that don't, like, like, their size of mountains also eat a couple

42:15of guys of theirs. This is where, you know, like, Odysseus shows his cleverness again by, like, not being the one to more his, you know, he doesn't get too close. Yeah. But I was thinking, too, like, well, you should have also told your guys, like, hey, maybe we. Right.

42:34I was the only one who chose to moor my ship outside the harbor. Right. Yeah. They're only going to have one ship after this because all the other ones get destroyed. Well, you could also see him being a little pissed at his crew right now.

42:48Stupid motherfuckers. Or maybe even unsure of him. I was home. I was literally home. I could I could smell my wife's pussy instead. I'm out at this fucking mountain man island.

43:01Also, more charitably, he might feel like I could warn them. But like, what are they going to believe me at this point? Yeah. You know, I clearly have not made the right call. More giants eating men like that. What archetype is that? Like a giant who just eats you. Yeah. And there's apparently a lot in this part of the world. There's a lot of those people. So his ship makes it out after that. But the rest are destroyed. They pelted them with boulders. Yeah. There's a lot of boulders flying constantly. It's yeah. It's a kind of war zone of the monsters.

Circe and the transformation of men

43:33Yeah.

Circe and the transformation of men

43:34So then they get to Circe's Island. So this is a little different. It's not just giants eating people. It's something something different. Very Miyazaki, though, because one of the first things she does is turn his men into pigs. Yeah, I know. Which is one of the other things that it's just like totally in culture, like what Circe does, turn people into pigs. Yeah. So, by the way, you know, there is some foreshadowing here where he says, my friends, we will not yet go down to Hades, sad that we are before our fated day.

44:07We will not. That's true. Yeah, so he and he's actually pretty good in this episode, I think, as a leader. They draw straws to see which group will go and check out Circe. And especially when the friends never come back, he volunteers to go and check on them himself. And him deciding to go and see what happened to his men when probably they've been killed or worse, that's good leadership there, I think.

44:41And we should acknowledge that. All of a sudden, he's like, leave no man behind. Yeah.

44:48Right. And so, fortunately, he meets Hermes. He gives him the potion that will not make him turned into a pig and then tells him, like, what to do. Gives him a plan. This is random, but the translation says the bright mercurial god. I'm like, oh, like Mercury. Oh, yeah.

45:08Is he Mercury? Yeah, he is Mercury. He is Mercury, yeah. I like how the plant is molly. We know what that is. Hermes is interesting. I don't totally get a great sense of, like, his character. We saw him bitching, kind of grumbling about having to go to Calypso to let Odysseus go. He seems young and kind of immature because he was also the one saying, I would totally bang Aphrodite. But Apollo is, you know, having some fun with that as well. So, he is able to resist the pig potion and attack Cersei in the way that Hermes told him to.

45:45And that gets Cersei on his side. And then he makes her swear an oath not to hurt him and then asks her to turn his men from pigs back into humans. And she's like, yes, but you have to. You just have to fuck me. You have to fuck me. And I guess she is more normal size. So, that's good. It's not like he has to swim into, like, a cavernous vagina. But, you know, after reading all of these, like, books of the Odyssey, like, I want to have my body oiled after a bath.

46:19I said that, like, in the Telemachus books. Like, he was constantly getting oiled by beautiful women and girls. Like, I feel like there's a whole part of life that I've missed out on. But that's what happens when you venture out.

46:36Yeah. I like, by the way, the just descriptions of the men turning back into men. Their hog hairs sprouted out on their bodies. The bristles all flew off. And there they were. And they're weirdly younger than before and more handsome and taller. So, kind of worth it. Kind of worked out. Yeah. Just a few. Like, I don't know if they have memories of being a pig or not. But, yeah. So, then they stay a year. Which is, like, unbelievable.

47:02They are not, like, in a hurry to get home right now. That's, like, I don't know what to make of that. But they stay an entire year. It's true that Cersei is, like, and actually what Cersei says is kind of interesting. She says, King, clever Odysseus, now stop encouraging this lamentation because they are crying about the men that they've lost. And she says, I know you and your men have suffered greatly out on the fish-filled sea and on dry land from hostile men. But it is time to eat and drink some wine. You must get back the drive you had when you set out from Ithaca.

47:34You are wore down and brokenhearted, always dwelling on pain and wandering. You never feel joy at heart. You have endured too much. Like, this seems like an appropriate speech to Odysseus and the Phaeacians. I mean, I guess they lost most of their men. I was going to say, like, it's pretty fucked up. Yeah, within the last couple of days, whatever, they've, like, had some really, really bad stuff. I don't know if it would require a year of therapy, but maybe. And then it's interesting that he's not even the one that says time to go. It's his men that have to tell him, like, it's time to think of our own country.

48:10If you're a favorite to survive and reach your high-roofed house and your forefather's lands. So they leave after an entire year. And a year will seem like nothing when he has to be seven years with Calypso, but that was not by choice. So she says, okay, yes. But first, you have to go to the house of Hades and you have to find blind Tiresias and ask him what to do. So if her goal was to make him, cure him of heartbreak and sorrow, it didn't work because he immediately just starts weeping.

48:47And he says, I lost all will to live and see the shining sun. When I was done with sobbing and rolling around in grief, I said to her.

49:00But Cersei, who can guide us on our journey? And she says, you are resourceful, King Odile. This is like the gods helping, but you actually have to do it yourself. So clearly, you know, metaphorically, there's a lot going on here. But yeah, she tells him what to do with Tiresias, what to tell him. And then you're going to actually go into Hades and talk to the dead. Do you have anything to say about this part of it? No, but like, other than that, it's like the darkest thing that seems to be able to happen to you at this point.

49:31Where you're like, oh, by the way, you have to go into the, like the land of the dead before you can make it home. You have to go to hell. This is like, talk about the hero's journey. Like, this is like the spot where I would break down. Yeah. And it's going to, it's pretty much going to be at the midway point of the book. So it's just very ironic that she, the justification for him staying a year is that you're too sorrowful. And maybe he would have been, maybe he wouldn't have been able to do this if it hadn't been for the year at the, like, rehab or whatever, at the spa.

50:03But it's still like, he's very sorrowful now. And I just love, again, it's this funny little coda. He says, we got to wake up. He gets his men. And he says, the goddess gave instructions. We need to go. They did as I said. But even then, I could not lead my men away unharmed. The youngest one, Elpinor was his name, not very brave in war, nor very smart, was lying high in the home of Cersei, apart from his companions, seeking coolness since he was drunk. He heard the noise and bustle, the movement of his friends, and jumped up quickly, forgetting to climb down the lofty ladder.

50:38He fell, crashing headlong from the roof and broke his neck right at the spine. His spirit went down to Hades. He was like, I have a shortcut, guys. Like, we don't need to sail. That's the most Deadwood scene in the Odyssey. Dude. Like, I could totally see, like, a guy just getting totally shit-faced on a roof somewhere. He hears his friend leaving, scrambles up, falls down, breaks his head. After all, he survived? Yeah. Like, the giants eating you and hurling boulders at you?

51:11Not very brave in war, nor very smart. It's just such a funny way to kind of wrap up this part of the journey.

Elpinor's death and heading to Hades

51:19And then Odysseus says, perhaps you think we're going home. But Cersei says, we have to go towards the house of Hades to meet Tiresias and the Theban spirit. And at that, their hearts were broken. They sat down right there and wept and tore their clothes. This is when I texted you. Like, these guys, these Greeks cry a lot. They have tantrums, like the tearing of the clothes, the rolling on the ground, you know. But no, it's the translation. It's not, like, the text itself.

51:51Yeah, so great couple of books, I think. You know, it's funny because when you imagine the Odyssey, I think you imagine it in its more heroic ideal, in a more heroic form, which is probably why some people are disappointed if, you know, they see that, oh, it's a lot more complicated and there's a lot more gray and there's a lot more kind of ironic little touches that you never get too comfortable thinking you know, like, what the tone is

52:22or what the psychology behind it is. Yeah, in fact, if I'm, like, trying to recall the things that I knew about the Odyssey, because, again, I'm going in blind, I don't even know what's going to happen at Hades, it is, like, oh, yeah, he tells the Cyclops he's nobody, like, ha-ha. And he saves his men from being turned into pigs. Like, I remember the end with the, like, the suitors, what he does there.

52:53And it's all just heroic. You think that he's just, like, had his chin up the whole time defeating foes. And it's been a hard-fought journey, but, like, he's the hero that we know and love, Odysseus. Yeah, and it's not that. You know, if it was, it would be obviously a much lesser text. If it was just this guy, you know, it was like an episode of The Super Friends or something like that. Yeah, right, exactly. All right. Anything else to say about these two books? Next, I think, maybe the most famous part, if not the most well-known, the most famous book is the book where he goes to the land of the dead.

53:28And it lives up to it. It's remarkable. And I don't think I know what happens at all. Oh, God. So I'm, like, excited. That's very exciting. Yeah, so much interesting stuff, both story-wise and thematically, too. Just, mm. Yeah. I'm all for going to hell. All right. So, too bad for Elpinor, but the rest of them, they're headed towards Hades. He got there faster. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. We may meet him again. You never know. Join us next time on The Lotus Eaters.

53:59The Lotus Eater. The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters.

54:30The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters.