Social Media for Artists with Neve Creative Studio: Why Your Instagram Isn’t Selling (And What To Fix)

Introduction

0:00Hello, and welcome back to the Art Coaching Club podcast. I'm your host, Haley White, artist, business coach for artists, and owner of the online art gallery, The Scouted Studio. I am so excited for today's conversation. Truly, I love talking to all of our guests, but I reached out to today's guest on Instagram because she came across my feed and I was like, I personally want to talk to this person, which I want to talk to all of you guys. But she is an art marketing expert. So think social media strategist specifically for artists, and she has an art background.

0:35So for those of you that love, you know, when we get into the weeds of Instagram, we get into the weeds of marketing, you're going to love this. Also, for those of you who loved the episode on tax a few weeks back with sunlight tax because it's taxes from an artist perspective for artists, this is that kind of episode. It's an episode where the expert is an expert in her craft, but she's got a background in art so it is tailored for you guys. I'm so excited. It's such a good episode. And so I'm really excited to get into it.

1:05Before we do, super quick, if you are new here, because I know there are a lot of new listeners, another great free resource beyond this podcast for creatives is my sub stack. You can search Haley Price White. It will come up. You can also access it through the Art Coaching Club Instagram. That's also another great place for artists. I do artist tips of the day. There are lots of good content, but the sub stack is a really great place to get weekly emails on Thursdays. Every single week, it's a different topic generally relating to things that are going to help you

1:37grow your creativity, grow your art business, really practical stuff like what we talk about here. So definitely recommend subscribing. There is a paid version, but you can subscribe for free and you still get that email every week. You just get a little bit more if you pay, so don't feel like you're not going to get anything if you don't pay. Subscribe for free and then decide. So definitely want to throw that out there. And then obviously, thank you for being here. But this is going to be a really good episode, so I will not hold it up any longer. Let's jump into the conversation.

Guest Introduction

2:07I'm Niamh, and I am a social media manager and coach for artists. I actually didn't start off in my career doing social media. I studied fine art and I worked as a printmaker for a few years and balanced that with working in the gallery world, so working my way up to being a curator. And I just knew that I needed a change and a shift in my life, and I found myself naturally being drawn to doing more artist management, and that led me to doing what I do now.

2:40Amazing. Well, I was stalking you, and I'm sure everyone else will once they see this episode come up, but you're, to quote your Instagram bio, you are an art marketing expert, and you are helping artists and creative brands scale their visibility, clients reaching millions,

Art Marketing Expertise

2:57and boosting sales. So can you tell us what that actually means and what you do day-to-day for artists? Yeah, for sure. So my day-to-day, kind of my day's almost split in two, in a way. So I work with some artists in a very high-contact sense of I completely manage their Instagram. Like, they hand over everything to me, which for so many of the artists that I know and speak to on a daily basis, social media feels like such a creative drain.

3:28They hit a point in their career when they just think, I can't continue to be pouring so much of myself into this part of my business where it's not my passion, or, like, they know that they're not quite the expert at it. So a lot of my day is spent working very closely with a very limited number of artists, completely managing their socials. So we're talking all the industry research, looking at trends, understanding their practice, being able to write like it's them, being able to edit content like it's come from them.

4:01Because a lot of the social media advice we see out there does not apply to artists. Like, it doesn't fit. So it is very niche. Help artists learn to do this for themselves. Because when we look at our art careers, it's our whole life. Like, it's expansive. So a lot of people don't want to give that over to someone else. They want to know how to do it themselves and have that control. So I help people in a range of ways. Yeah, well, okay, that's amazing.

4:31When somebody wants to work with you, and maybe we can start with kind of the high contact person first, what is the first thing you kind of assess? So when you meet with them, you know, you're looking at their work, obviously, I'm assuming, but are you thinking about their brand as a whole? And like, how are you assessing kind of their current social presence?

4:50Yeah, so a lot of artists will come to me and they're saying to me, I don't feel like I'm positioning myself quite right, like online. And they know that it's not attracting galleries. They know it's not attracting buyers. And the biggest thing I hear is, I'm only attracting other artists, and I'm not making any money. So we go back to the full basics. So step one is always the foundations. So does your bio clearly explain who you are, who you help, and how people can work with you? Nine times out of 10 with the people I work with, it doesn't.

5:24And that buyer's journey, if that funnel isn't there, if it's not clear how people can go from seeing you for the first time to working with you, people now are so over-consumed with content and it's overwhelming to be online and people are more resistant to things that feel hard. So if we can get things laid out in a really black and white way, like this is how people can work with you, this is what you do, it closes a lot of loops.

5:55So that's usually the first step before we get into the depths and like the nitty gritty of all things content. So I love it because it's kind of, it feels really easy. I feel like a lot of people listening are probably like, oh, I can change my bio today. I think that's like low hanging fruit.

Artist Branding

6:10When we get it, I want to get into kind of nitty gritty content, Instagram stuff, but before we do, you know, you mentioned, especially artists that want to do this themselves. I think a lot of artists that I talk to as well are struggling with. I'm only attracting other artists. A lot of them are kind of just showing their artwork and feeling like it's not working. How do you think artists should think about brand and like how they show up on socials and beyond, beyond like logos and colors? Like how do you really think about branding as a whole? So the, I guess for the biggest thing, I don't know if this like comes under the umbrella

6:43of branding. I've not thought about it in that way, but in terms of presence, where I see most going wrong is only talking about how they do something. So in terms of the brand tone, I go on to, all I look at all day long is artists Instagram. Like that's basically just my job. And I see the same thing again and again and again, which is I went to the studio and I sat down and I painted this because I wanted to.

7:13And that's fine, but it's very descriptive and your buyer and the people who want to buy your work, they can see that you're painting in the studio. Like they can see that you're using the color blue, but they don't know why you're doing that. It's that brand tone shift. When we go from talking only about ourselves and we go from only talking about how we do something to talking about why we do it and using more audience focused language.

7:44That's when we build communities and we help people connect with our work because buying art, as we all know, like it's an emotional purchase. It's not a day-to-day item. So in order to buy it, in order to get someone to buy an emotional purchase, you have to sell them the emotions. And that is the biggest shift we do in the content. And it naturally attracts more sales and more opportunities when you do that. Definitely. Well, and I think that's why a lot of this marketing experts advice doesn't apply to artists

8:17is because I think we are selling so much emotion. And so the like quick tip, go viral, it's going to sell hacks. I feel like often don't work and don't apply to artists. Could you give an example, either, you know, a vague example or a specific one of a shift that you made and maybe an example of how this kind of was put into practice for artists that maybe aren't fully grasping the concept yet? Yeah, for sure. So the biggest thing is being able to look at your content creatively. So I guess a big shift for me with that is one of my first big clients that I took on

8:53were Fused Glass artists. Their work is so detailed. It started off as just a one-woman show. And then over the years, she's expanded to multiple galleries, a huge team around her of artists as well. But their content and their socials was just stagnant. And it was stagnant for a really long time. So I started working with them. And at first, I was trying to look at it like, I guess you would typically look at helping someone's social media. So like you said, like thinking about the pain points by his journey, like typical hooks

9:25that we see again and again and again. And obviously it wasn't working. And then I started trying to look at what they do through the eyes of an artist and actually their work is so sensory and it's so deeply interwoven with this artist's relationship to the land and all the amazing places she lives. So she's got a studio in Cornwall, she's got a studio in Spain, she works between the two. And none of this was in the content. The content felt very flat. So I just randomly had the idea one day, oh, let's record the sounds of you making your

10:00work. Like it's so gripping, but your audience isn't seeing it. And everyone was like, oh, like, are you sure? I don't know if that's going to work. And like, flash forward, that video that we first did, it's now got 100 million views, which is crazy. So crazy. The visuals were sensory and hooking and they showed a visual story of the work being created from start to finish, but in a way that you don't always see on Instagram. So it was very sensory and engaging.

10:32And then the caption told the story. And it told the story of why we're creating the work and where this has come from and why, like, why work with glass and why capture the landscape and where does that come from? And that was a huge shift. And it, before the engagement was pretty flat and then it's been viral basically ever since. But I wonder, do you think that went viral and got a lot of attention because it's just different than everyone, everything else that's really on social media right now?

11:05Or do you think it was more really engaging because it's a deeper look into this artist? Or do you think it was kind of a mix of both? I think a bit of both. I think with viral content, I mean, to get to that level of views, I feel like part of it is also like partly a bit of luck as well. Like to reach that much has like got to be, of course, an amazing strategy, but also like the breeze of the algorithm, like, you know, moved us forward quite a lot. But the fact that using that strategy has helped other artists go viral and make sales

11:37and it's helped this client as well get more and more engagement. And it tells me that it's about giving your audience deeper insight into what you're doing. So not just visually, but also in the language that we're using. And that's the edge that artists have, but they don't tap into a lot of the time. It's very sensory. It's very visually engaging. It's not just usually a typical like five second reel with a generic hook on that we've

12:07seen before. It's something a bit different. But then the caption goes into the story and it goes deeper. And I think that when we do that, that's when the big shifts happen. And that makes a lot of sense. And now I'm actually thinking through, you know, scrolling through reels, the ones I see and even the things I get caught on, it is a little bit more sensory. It's like the water pouring on the canvas or the sound or something or, and then I actually read the caption. I think a lot of artists that I'm talking to right now, they feel really stuck, whether that be they're stuck at a follower count or they're, you know, posting consistently

12:40and they're not growing. How would you tell them maybe like that right there was a great piece of advice, but if they're like, well, what is my story or I just paint, like if they're like, how do I start to think about this? Is there an exercise that maybe you could have them work through just to get the ball rolling on what, what is unique about them? What is sense? How could they, you know, put a different spin on their artwork? Anything come to mind?

Finding Your Story

13:04Yeah, a hundred percent. So what I would normally do with one of my clients is we would usually just sit on a call and I would ask them a series of questions, which is actually a series of questions that I was asked in art school when I was working on a painting and my tutor at the time, who was amazing, was like, your work's not telling me anything. And I was so frustrated because I was like, I've, there was a story here like that I've poured so much into it, but it wasn't obvious. So she sat me down and she was like, well, why have you chosen this color palette?

13:36And it wasn't just, oh, I like, I like using the colors pink because it makes me happy, but it was going deeper than that. And like, why do we need joy? For example, like if you're painting because it brings you happiness, why do you think we need that in your work? Why not just do it behind closed doors and not, and not share with people, you know, like what do you want your audience to take from this work? And what do you hope for people to experience when this piece is in front of them? And that doesn't mean giving people all of the answers.

14:09I think art should have some mystery around it and allowing people to see themselves in the work. But sometimes we need prompts and a bit of guidance into how the artist is seeing the world. And that helps us to connect with the work. So asking yourself, like, why do you get up in the morning and continue to make art again and again, like that creative ritual of always going back to your work? Why do you feel so drawn to that? And what inside of you is pulling you to be creative?

14:40And why do you want to share it with the world? What do you hope for people to take from it? And to ask yourself what these why focused questions almost helps us to unlock it. And every time you think you've tapped into it, go back to it and try and go even deeper and go deeper and deeper. And that's when we really start to understand what we're doing. But the biggest thing I hear artists saying when I tell them this is, oh, but I don't have like a traumatic reason that I'm making my work.

15:12Like, I don't have this big why, because often we think of all of these amazing artists that we see in the history books and in museums, and they've lived troubled lives and they paint about that in their work. And that doesn't apply to everyone. But being able to sit down and make art is a very intentional act. And I do believe that even if it's not a super deep reason, there is usually always a reason why you're doing it. I also think just inherently being an artist is a brave act and people find that interesting.

15:48So even things that I feel like may feel mundane to me or not that interesting to an artist, you know, they artists say that to me a lot. They're like, well, it's not that interesting. It's just my day to day. And I'm like, but even why you choose the color blue, which you do every day, so it feels boring to you is interesting to someone else. It's interesting to other artists. It's also interesting to, you know, people that aren't in the art world. And I think that is something artists take for granted. And I think it's getting at what you're talking about. It's going deeper and into your why.

16:20And it doesn't have to be some crazy, traumatic, mind-blowing story. Even just like the day-to-day of why you made this choice to be an artist is really interesting to a lot of people. A hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. One of my clients had a very similar conversation with her recently and she was saying, oh, but I don't really want to show the process of me picking the fabrics for my work because it's easy. Like I find that easy. And I'm like, well, you only find it easy because you're an expert at it.

16:50So like not everyone sees the world in the way that you do. Like one of my, he's my client. He's an amazing painter. Um, and he is so drawn to these areas of light in the landscape and how it falls on the, on the ground. And, um, I've said to him, I'm like, well, why don't you take us on a walk and show us this in your content? Like, and I said to him, I was like, because I feel like nine out of 10 people probably don't notice these smaller details that you will sit and draw for hours and hours and hours

17:23at time. So it's almost just being able to take a step back and look at your work through fresh eyes. And that's when we can really start to see what we need to post about to help our audience understand what we're doing and why we're doing it. Yeah. I mean, that sounds cinematic. I feel like there's just so much there and it's again, like surface level seems pretty mundane. What for artists listening, what do you think is the difference between, you know, creating content, a real something, you know, maybe along those lines that just looks aesthetic

17:57versus actually converts, gets people to do something, you know, how do you take that walk, looking at shadows and light, and then actually have it convert to follows, purchases, whatever the goal is? Yeah, I'd say it's all about balance. So the structure I kind of encourage artists to use is about warming people up gently through the week. So if you're always coming on Instagram and saying, this is for sale, please buy it.

18:27It's on my website, you're not, you're only showing people the price before you show them the emotional value. And it's almost like rule 101 of sales, like sell the emotional value before you sell the art. And that's when we're going to hook people in. So start the week with showing people your personal brand. Like, who are you? Like, what do you do? Why do you do it? Talk about how you spend your days and what inspires you. And through the week, show your process, which is so important. One artist reached out to me recently and said, well, every time I show the process, I only

19:01attract artists. I'm like, but people need to see that you're spending hundreds of hours making your work, especially in the digital age. Like people have to see that and start to build that picture, build that trust with your audience. Once you've told the story, that's when you do the sale. And it's about using the visuals to guide people. So it feels soft and warm and like a conversation. And it doesn't feel too much of a hard sell all the time.

19:32Because if you do that, it just turns people away. Yeah. I was talking to our artists group, my membership group this week, and we were talking about when you start to get aligned, it starts to feel like a conversation. When you're aligned and you know what you need to be doing, your marketing feels like a conversation. And then when you are ready to sell, it feels like an invitation. And I feel like you just reiterated that, which I think is, it's really true. Once you warm people up, selling feels more like an invitation versus throwing it at them. But then also it does have more of that conversational aspect.

20:05And instead of, I think right now, what I'm seeing like the social media experts say is like, do the hook and it'll trap them. And it'll be a short video and they'll watch it five times. And it's like, I don't want to trap my audience. I'd rather them, you know, maybe it's a longer video and it's less about views, but it's more about the people that care, watch the whole thing and are interested in the process. And those are the people that are going to buy my work anyway, you know? So I think there's really something there that you're getting at, which I find really, really interesting. Yeah, 100%. Like the hook thing is so tricky for artists.

20:38I think we, if we go on social media, I see it all the time, people saying, oh, I can create a whole month of content in 30 minutes. Why aren't you? And that doesn't work for artists. The same reasons you just said, it's about going deeper and finding the right people. And that might mean that you don't go viral every time. And my clients don't go viral every time, but it's about looking at the bigger picture. And it's about looking at the using, going viral as the top of your funnel and working

21:11people down to the eye and making sure that we're looking at the big picture and not just the immediate instant post in front of us. Yeah. I really like thinking about virality as the top of funnel, because I think a lot of people think of Instagram as a whole as the top of funnel, but I really think Instagram, people spend so much time on the platform that that is a funnel in and of itself, like start to finish almost. So I really like thinking through it that way. One thing I want to talk about is being in front of the camera. And I think a lot of artists I talk to are kind of hiding behind their work and they don't

21:44really want it to be as much of a personal brand. And I don't know, I would just love to hear your thought on, you know, how much of the artist's self, whether that be their, you know, face and their actual visually self versus even just their voice and their thoughts on their artwork. I would say talking to camera is super important because it's about building trust. And I don't know about you, but I will very rarely invest a large sum of money in artwork if like, I don't know who I'm buying from. Um, and it is about building that trust of your audience.

22:16And I think that talking to camera, it, yeah, a hundred percent, it feels exposing and it can feel really vulnerable to be seen. And there's a lot of mindset work I do with my clients around being okay with being seen by people, being okay with like being authentic and vulnerable and not getting it right and not being perfect because that seems when we like look beyond the talking to camera and a lot of people say to me, I'm scared.

22:46I don't want to do it. I don't know what to say. It's usually just a mindset block that we need to work through. And where, where does this come from? Like, where does this belief come from that you aren't okay with being seen by people? Because actually on the other side of that is everything you want is like the sales and the recognition and people giving you, I don't know, like admiration for what you're doing, but you're not letting them see you. And why is that? It's like therapy work right there. Yeah. But it's so true. It's so true.

23:18And I think it's a major block for most people, which is really interesting. And that's not to say, I don't, I've also felt that way in many different scenarios, but I think that's some really important work to go through kind of thinking, continuing to think on Instagram and how much time we put into it versus our art practice. Because I think that's something you mentioned at the very top of this conversation. How do you think about that? Like, how do you think about Instagram's role in like a full artist's picture? Or obviously for people that don't hire you and do have to do it themselves, like how

23:48do you balance maintaining creativity, being off the platform versus even, you know, how much do I need to be on it? And how do you kind of think through that for artists that are doing it themselves?

Balancing Creativity and Instagram

23:58Yeah, it's, it's a bit of an ongoing dance, I think with Instagram, because it's so important, especially if you're an artist who wants to be self-sufficient in the sense that you don't want to be working with galleries as your full source of income, which I think there are more shifts in that direction, people want to give it a crack, at least to be able to sell more of their work directly themselves. And if that is your goal, I would say Instagram is hugely important as part of your sales strategy,

24:29because often we confuse, we can confuse Instagram with not being a sales strategy, but it is like it's important for finding clients and building your connections in your community. But it's also about humanising the fact that you are just a person living your life beyond just making art. And that's like thinking about your commitments outside of your practice. And sometimes life is overwhelming and it's okay to not get it right all the time.

25:01And if that means you miss a post, Instagram is going to keep on ticking away, like it's not going to massively impact your engagement. But I always say to people, it's about finding a posting number, being consistent with it, and making sure that you don't burn out. So to artists who come to me and they're like, I have kids, and I'm working a second job. And I really want to get myself off the ground. And I want to commit to social media, but I just don't know how I'm going to find the

25:32time. Like, well, let's start with two or three posts a week. Let's get that right. Let's build up your confidence. And then we'll increase that posting number. But it's about being honest with yourself of how much you can actually commit. Because when we overcommit, that's when the burnout happens. Right. And do you think with that commitment, is it more quality over quantity? Do you think? Yeah, I would say so 100%. It's about getting it right and not rushing it.

26:04Because when we rush it, often, we're just hopping on trends, which might not feel aligned, or we're just using maybe chat GPT to do it for us, which doesn't work. And when we take our time and we do it properly, and we put the right energy into it, people sense that now people can tell like when you're in your content, it sounds so silly, but we have all become more clued up with what was consuming every single day. So I would say do less, do it really well.

26:36And then when the time comes, if you're in a quieter season, use that to build up your content bank, use that to be getting ready for posting more. I think that's a great way to think about it too, because I think it does feel really overwhelming sometimes. But even knowing that it can kind of ebb and flow and you can do what works for you. And I bet some people's ears perked up when you said chat GPT, because I do think that that's where a lot of this like, I created 30 days worth of content and 30 minutes narrative or three minutes narrative comes from.

27:08And I feel like it's when I moved away from, I guess, more is more and just got into like, I'm going to create what I want to create. I'm going to write it myself, probably typos and all. It's going to be more my voice, me talking to camera, not me reading a script. Like when I really leaned into that personally, I saw so much more success and just like literal virality and things like that. And it's kind of obvious. And in a lot of ways, it's easier because once you figure it out, you're like, this is

27:39just me. I'm not trying to like be some perfect version that like this computer and like experts are telling me to be. And then it converts so much more. And so it does take effort and it does take time to get there. But I think that should be reassuring for people to hear too. A hundred percent. It's a marathon, not a sprint at the end of the day is what I say to my clients. You know, you're committing being an artist. It's not just a nine to five job that you leave at the door and you pick up tomorrow. Like it's who you are and you will have that for your whole life.

28:14At your core, you're an artist. And it's so important to preserve that. And some of these people who say, you know, they do 30 posts in 30 minutes and posting three times a day. And like, I'm sure they probably are seeing huge growth. I know people who've done that as well. And the burnout is massive or they have teams around them to support them to be able to do that. And that's the side we don't often see on Instagram is it's like that analogy of, you know, the swan, like gliding gracefully across the water, but underneath, like the feet are

28:47kicking really fast. And it's about just being realistic and being able to preserve your creativity as well. Yes. And I love that you have the art background too, because I feel like you truly understand it. You're not just coming from like a grow your social media as fast as you can perspective, although you do that for people very successfully. So I just think this is, it's a really interesting conversation because I think, I mean, Instagram is the biggest battle. It's always the most listened to podcast. It's what artists ask me about the most.

29:17And it's because it's, it's hard and the algorithm shifting and we're kind of just feeling like, what do we do? But I think this has been so beneficial kind of to round us out. Can you share just how people can learn more about you, everything you offer, all that good stuff? Yeah. So you can follow me on Instagram, um, Neve Creative Studio, and I work with artists in a range of capacities. So we have power hours, which are one time like intensive sessions and coaching as well.

29:48So having a social media manager is amazing. Like it does so much for your business, but that's like a long term commitment. And that only really works if you want to hand over the reins for a long period of time. So for artists who want to be massively upskilled and know how to market themselves, know how to pitch to people, close sales, know how to grow sustainably in a way that is manageable, like coaching is the best way to go. So you can find me on Instagram and just drop me a message with any social media questions.

30:19Okay. I love that. We'll also link to it, but thank you so much. This is so fun. I loved kind of hearing more of your story, your background, and this is definitely really helpful. Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been great. You're welcome. You're welcome.