Episode 320 - Beth Orton

Welcome Beth Orton

0:00Hi, and welcome to Soda Jerker on Songwriting. This is Simon, here with Brian, and with us for our 320th edition is a Brit Award winning and Mercury Prize nominated English singer, songwriter and musician. Since her emergence in the mid-90s, this doyen of Folktronica has released

0:33eight acclaimed albums and worked with the likes of the Chemical Brothers, Andrew Weatherall, William Orbert, Bert Jansch, Emmylou Harris, Terry Callier and Johnny Moore. As this episode lands in your feed, her latest studio offering, the self-produced The Ground Above, has just made its bow, and it's a typically beguiling and absorbing collection of songs. We're chuffed to welcome the excellent Beth Orton to the show. Our guest was born in Deerham, Norfolk in 1970. She grew up in nearby Norwich before moving with her mother and two older brothers to Dalston, East London in her early teens. Though she had a musical side, she was initially

1:06more interested in acting, attending the Anna Sher theatre school. Shortly after her mother's passing, when Beth was just 19, she ventured further into that world, joining an experimental theatre company with which she toured the UK and Russia. She also spent several months studying meditation in a Thai monastery and tried her hand at bullfighting in Spain. Quite the period of self-discovery. It was one of Beth's fellow thesps who invited her one evening to the party where she first met producer William Orbert, who would prove a key figure in her early creative life and help set her on the path to a career in music.

1:37Orbert encouraged Beth to embrace her singing voice and became a close musical collaborator for the next few years, during which time she developed her songwriting and guitar playing. With Orbert, she recorded the 1993 collaborative album Super Pinky Mandy, which was available only in Japan and is now something of a collector's item. Having signed to Heavenly Records and guested on the Chemical Brothers' Exit Planet Dust in the interim, Beth's debut LP proper, Trailer Park, arrived in 1996. Produced by label mate and dance music pioneer Andrew Weatherall, it won much critical praise for its seamless blend

2:09of folk and electronic sensibilities. The follow-up, 1999's Central Reservation, saw Beth further refine his sound, earning a Brit Award for Best Female Solo Artist and reaching the UK Top 20. Other albums include 2002's Daybreaker, Beth's highest charting album, 2012's Sugaring Season, on which she applied some of the newfound guitar skills she'd acquired from folk legend Burt Janch, 2016's keyboard and synth-based Kid Sticks, conceived and mostly recorded during the two years she spent living in LA, and 2022's Weather Alive, her first self-production.

2:42And one that feels very much of a piece with the new record, I'd say, in terms of atmosphere and mood. Agreed, yeah. If you're not doing so already, follow, rate and review our show on your pod platform of choice. A nice review that is, don't be shitty. And check out our archive of well over 300 interviews with quality songwriters like Beth. Support this proudly indie and ad-free show at sodajerker.com slash donate. Before we move on, our thanks to Adrian for his help setting up the chat. Now, without further ado, here we are with the excellent Beth Orton. We'll see you next time.

Songwriting at the piano

3:40Well, you've made a lot of records through the years. Where do you find yourself songwriting-wise with The Ground Above? Is your 2026 songwriting process any different from the way you've approached it in the past? In some ways, not really, no. I mean, the music comes when it comes. The Ground Above and the last record has been at the piano. So I sit down and I find myself kind of noodling, finding chords and then melodies and words come. And it's a process where the kind of fluid ideas come first.

4:17And then you have these kind of hotspots, these kind of like, oh, that feels great. That feels great. And then the work comes in sort of like piecing the parts that aren't just stream of consciousness together as if they are stream of consciousness. And finding the way that the rhythm and the melody match and work as fluently as possible. And that's often difficult because it's like, I sometimes have a fight between the words and the kind of the rhythm, the way that the words sound

4:49as much as what they mean. It's funny because I went to see Paul Simon the other day and he's just the best example of someone who can make meaning and the whole thing work as one. I don't know, he's just a classic songwriter in that sense. Yeah. Do you actually enjoy the writing process? Because some people don't actually relish the writing part. You know, they have to do it to get to make the record. Do you have like an inherent desire to write songs? Yeah, I can't imagine not wanting to write songs. Why would you even bother making a record? Like

5:20the only reason to make a record is because you've got these songs and you're like, yeah, I wonder what would happen if such and such was involved. And yeah, for me, it's always songs first. Do you find that the character of a group of songs when they arrive can be similar? Because I noticed in the press notes, it mentioned that Weather Alive was more kind of dreamy and underwater. And then this one's much more like a resurfacing, more kind of direct, I suppose. Do you find that the songs kind of have a type to them when they come in a batch maybe?

5:51I mean, the thing is both of these records, I see them as sisters, these records, Weather Alive and The Ground Above, and all the songs kind of got written at a similar time. For example, The Ground Above was going to be on Weather Alive, but it didn't fit the mood. And I didn't know yet what that meant until I started making this record and the driving force of getting in the room with the musicians and Tom Skinner came in to play on the track and he just opened it into this kind of free jazz, spiritual kind of extravaganza of just like, I don't know,

6:25just broke it apart really. And while he didn't end up, playing the drums on the track, he sort of set it free in a way. He sort of burst the song open. And though the song is the same arrangement as it was, you know, as I wrote it, it still went through this kind of process of being freed from my preconception. And I was never sure if it was too straight ahead a song. I thought it was like a pop song and I thought, oh, this is a bit cheesy. I don't know. And then suddenly I was like, no, this is really deep and this is really serious and

7:00somehow own it, you know, own what this is. So then I had four different drummers try different things. And anyway, finally in the studio in New York, it was with Vishal Nayak, who was engineering the session and he found it. And, um, anyway, that's sort of how it happens in a way. And I think in the end, the record did become a more kind of direct expression and less ethereal, but, you know, it's also a press release, so you can't believe anything you read.

7:32I think you've said that in the past anyway, that initial sorts of lyrical ideas arrive as kind of subconscious nonsense syllables, almost like Morse code. And from there you'll find the form and fill it in more consciously. Is that still a core way that you'll develop lyrical ideas?

Subconscious lyrics and rhythm

7:52I mean, I like the Morse code. I think I definitely said the Morse code thing. I know like John Lennon and Paul McCartney, their nonsense lyrics. I mean, that's an extraordinary, you know, way of writing. I, I mean, how they develop their songs in that way is really about the sound and the rhythm and the meaning coming later. And for me, like, again, a song like the ground above, you know, I'm invincible as grief, violent as a blade of spring released. That just came as it is. And then, you know, you kissed me and I knew what I was for that came

8:24as it is. And what it is then is just like how to meet these, these kind of very, in a way, definite ideas and directions that the meaning of the lyrics took me in. I had to then be like, okay, where do these meet? Where is the meeting of the meaning here? And that's the work. Those lines that you quoted really stopped us dead. You know, they're really striking, aren't they? Yeah. You're sometimes surprised when your brain just drops something like that out. Yeah. That's the unconscious part I'm talking about. It's like, okay, I don't know how to

8:57find you, but I'm going to look for you. And I feel like that with this record, there's like the songs kept pushing me forward and urging me to kind of reach further beyond my reach, beyond my understanding actually. And it's through the songs that I have grown. And it's funny because now it's like, what are the songs about? And I'm like, I don't know how to tell you what the songs are about. And I'm not being evasive or difficult. I just, it's almost like only when I perform them. So I've just started performing them at a couple of gigs and I'm like, okay, yeah, that's what the song's about. I remember. I remember.

9:31And then when the band and the musicians got involved, they went even further out of my reach in a good way, you know, like had to just keep catching up to, to what it was. They were kind of asking of me. And you kissed me and I knew what I was for And it wiped me out like a choke off of a board Yeah, you kissed me and I knew what I was for

10:02And it wiped me out like a choke off of a board Do you find that once you've got an initial inspiration, is there a process of kind of saying, okay, well, that's enough improvisation. Now I have to consciously find the rest of the sense in that. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. You just sort of keep at the piano and I would stay in the mood of

10:33this song. I think it's like Bob Dylan or maybe it was John Lennon who said, you know, you come back to a song later, you're coming back to it as a different person. You're like finishing someone else's song, which is really interesting. So you sort of have to like really trust this process and be like, okay, I'm staying with this. I'm staying with this. I have to stay in this atmosphere of what this song is about and try and get to it quick because whatever this is, this mood in the room right now might pass. And having said that, it doesn't always work like that. And you do come back to it

11:05as a different person. And that new perspective is what brings this added depth. Because each time you come back with a new experience and a new understanding, you're like, oh, I'm seeing this from another angle and direction. And sometimes a song just has this full stop for a while. And it's like, it's not yielding. And so you have to leave it for a while and actually truly come back as a new person, in fact. And with the ground above, I started it in 2018. And I went in to record it. And it was a

11:36great session and brilliant players and this, that and the other. But it wasn't it. And it was so nearly it. But for me, it wasn't it as much as anything because the words weren't as good as those first few pockets of truth. And I was like, no, I'm not there yet. I had to let it go. And I had to let it go for a while. And then I made, like I say, Weather Alive. And I came back to that song and I was like, whispering it down the phone to Shahzada Smiley, who I worked with in New York. And we were working remotely. And it wasn't a whispering song. It's got a lot of might to it, I think.

Self-production and collaboration

12:10And you produced this album yourself again, didn't you? What's the appeal of self-production for you? Well, it started with Weather Alive as a mistake. You know, I was about to go in and work with the fancy producer, who's lovely and really loved the songs. And his confidence in the songs was a great gift. But then we went into lockdown, and there was just no way of doing that. So I just sort of took things into my own hands. And I pulled together the musicians that I was most excited to work with. And that started with Tom Skinner. And then we had like a four day break in the boiling

12:45hot sun bit like this. And he brought in Tom Herbert and Sam Best. And we just went and started to record. And I sent that to the label. And then they suggested another producer. But by then I was sort of invested in this process in a new way. And I didn't yet know that it was production. But I was engineering. I was working from home remotely with these tracks. And so this guy came in and I was like, no, that's not it. And so I sort of had to

13:15continue. And then I got dropped by the label, because they were like, well, if you don't work with him, then you're just being a pain. And I was like, I'm not. But anyway, and then I borrowed some money, finished the record, and then Partizan signed me the record label. And it was just this wonderful relationship, very rare, I think, in the industry nowadays, to take a risk on just artistic merit. And they did. And incredibly supportive label, who then I came to this record. And they were like, just go and do it again. Like, go and produce again, like, see what happens this time.

13:49And this time it was harder in a lot of ways, because we weren't in lockdown. And because, I don't know, there's so much more information in the air almost. And because these songs are beasts. And yeah, I went in for four days in London, then went to New York for four days with the American musicians I've been working with touring. And the appeal is to be able to see an idea through without anyone going, it's good enough. It's fine. And it probably is fine. You know, it probably is good enough. But I want to make it better always. I don't think it's about

14:23perfectionism. But it's about kind of instinct and the, the gift, again, gift, but it all feels like that of learning to really trust the instinct is powerful. Yeah, because I wondered if it was a particular kind of challenge to sort of split your brain between, you know, being inside the songs as the writer and the singer, but then standing outside them as a producer and having to make recording decisions. That right there nails it. That's the hardest part of it.

14:53And it's funny because at the same time I was a judge on the International Booker Prize and it sort of felt like my brain was splintering off into all these places. And while I feel like it's good for my brain, at some points it just felt like overload, too much information. I was sort of being a judge of other people's work. And then at the same time, it's sort of like being a judge of your own work and you can't be a judge. You can't sit outside of your work and oversee it. So there were times I'd have to just walk away and be like, okay, give it a breather, give it a breather.

15:23And then come back to it, like how to approach this without sort of fucking it up. You know, how do I keep my head in the right space to sort of be open enough and yet critical enough without destroying it in a way? It's complex. I can imagine you would feel that way with the opening track, the title track, because it's eight and a half minutes long, isn't it? And so you're sort of doing justice to the idea in a particular way, but the sort of producer perspective might be, maybe we should cut this

15:53down or something like that. That's a really good point. No, my producer head didn't even think about it being eight and a half minutes long because I'm not that kind of producer. I'm like, oh yeah, that's brilliant. We got that. We got that. That's so great. And the way it builds. And then the third verse cut, and then we'd clip that. The only place I clipped was I clipped the third verse a little bit. But other than that, it's just like, yeah, great. Love the way the drums build. Love the way they come out. So it's more like the kind of practical nature of song led decisions. There's also waiting. You've got some lovely lines in there about how fear kind of keeps you in a

16:28holding pattern, the hovering around like a ghost line. I really liked, how'd you go about finding the right music for an idea like that? Did you have the concept first and then have to kind of turn that into something sonic? I imagined it kind of like Terry Callier. So when I go in with the musicians, I give them a playlist. I tell them things I love listening to or a song that I feel like this could be in the universe of in some way or other. And out the gate, everyone was just like, like that beat and that kind of like classic sort of feel came out and I loved it. But at the

17:05beginning, like I say, I was like, I want this to be introduced with the fragility that it actually stands for, because I think that's better for the words. So that came later where I realized like I was kind of sacrificing some of that fragility. So yeah, you have an idea, but you never quite know where it's going to go once you get with the musicians. I've been harboring around like a ghost. And all the places gone away left unspoke. I've been playing down

17:38the penny arcades. Celebrating what a big win I've made. I've been following the river back home. I keep finding out I'm accident prone. I was going to write a gratitude list. Just got to work out my resentment to it. I'm thinking.

The garden shed studio

18:05And just for the benefits of our listeners, you're talking to us from your shed in the garden, I think. Yeah. Is that where most of the creative work is done? And is it important for you to have that sort of dedicated space to work in? Yeah, this is where I write the songs. And then I've got an Apollo. And honestly, I just use logic. Keep it simple. I've got my piano and guitar. And, you know, it's nice because I've got kids so I can be on hand if they need me. Again, the pandemic made that much easier because it's like everyone was

18:38home. So I could just come out here any time in the night or day. The harder thing with the second record was like I was home and everyone else had lives. So it's like trying to kind of herd cats. But anyway, yes, this is the epicenter of my world. I love it in here. Do you find that just showing up in the shed is enough to get something going or do you have to be in the right state of mind as well? I mean, yes. I think having this space does allow for that. You know, I could be like, I've got nothing. I've got nothing. And I come in here and something often happens. It's just like,

19:12if you show up, something will happen, whether it's that day, whether the reward of it is that day or the next two days or the next week, something will come of something. And sometimes it's just a case of working through the bad ideas to get to the good ones as well, isn't it? Yeah. Something always comes of it. You know, just got to make the effort. And I think you've been playing maybe on the last couple of albums, more keyboards. I know on this album, you're playing kind of Rhodes on some songs and piano on others. Does the instrument that you're playing in the room shape what the musicians are doing around you?

19:46Oh, well, I mean, it shapes what I do. I mean, yeah, I come in with the central arrangement, feel, chords, and they embellish. And when Sam Best embellishes on his piano or his keyboards, it's otherworldly. It's his choices are beautiful. And I'm blessed truly. I don't mean that word in an annoying kind of Instagram way. I just truly like, you know, I'm like, I'm there with these dudes who are like, you know, their choices, what they choose to take from what I present in the room is so

20:18beautiful. And I think because they come from a jazz sensibility, they hear words in a way that I've never worked. Musicians don't always hear the words, you know, they play to everything. They'll work with everything in a really deep way. And yeah, it's wild what I come away with. And because like, you know, I work on my own, I bring it home, bring it here, and I listen through. And I'm just like, whoa, that's incredible. You know, I get to listen to the stems or isolate the tracks and just the

20:53wildness of how they interlock and where they interlock. And, you know, I couldn't possibly begin to do what they do, but I get to appreciate it so deeply. And do the songs have to sort of migrate from just you in the shed out to a studio where you'll have everyone in a kind of a live configuration? Yeah, or not. Like on, again, whether a live, like a song like Lonely, that was all recorded remotely. So I recorded the voice and piano here, sent it to Shehzad. He played drums and bass

21:27and sent that back to me, but he only played halfway through the track and then stopped. And I was like, dude, can you finish it? And he couldn't finish it. And when he did try and complete it, it wasn't quite. So then I had to like, you know, splice it together. But that's part of the joy. And then he also added some extra piano and someone played some trombone. And so, yeah, I've also recorded completely from in here as well. I think I read that before I knew was one that was largely live. Oh, I mean, I pulled in the guitar from another take and looped it. Little details like that,

22:03you know. But yes, the core of this record, so the first four days, and then this other four days in New York, brought it all home here and to another studio in Hackney. And we tried to sort of like be clever with it. And, and actually those songs fell away. And I just kept returning to the kind of core live tracks. And while I might just fly a few little bits here and there from other takes and fiddle around with the piano and loop it here and there, the core tracks are live.

22:34I think before I knew was the only co-writer on the album as well. Is that right? In 2017, before I left, I was living in America and I was like, I really want to write songs, other people. And me and my friend Ollie got together and in 17 minutes, we just like ran through all these ideas. And that was one of them. I mean, I don't think he even recognizes what it was, but it's one that I took home and, and actually it ended up on this record. Yeah. And you go to some quite deep places on songs like Celestial Light, I'll Miss You and Love You Right.

23:08They're all very precise moments emotionally. How do you find that precision? Does it just come through maybe refining the language over and over? Yeah. And that's a difficult choice as well, because like often the first thought is the best thought and you're like, you know, it's such a bugger. You have to like really go back and forth with yourself. But yes, a song like Love You Right, for example, was just pure romance. But then I played it to the band and like Chris was like, oh my God, you've written a gospel song. And I was like, have I?

23:40And I was like, oh, all right. Yeah, I suppose. And then it was like the band, they were like, don't hide it under a, you know, under a bushel. Like, you know, let this be what it is. Don't be shy about how sort of deep it goes. And I only ever want to learn to love you right.

Memories and personal history

24:08One of the things I was sort of struggling with was this constant stream of information. And I was very aware of the world we're living in is a really, really troubled place to be.

24:42And it's just, it couldn't help but influence what I was writing. And I think that sharpened my pen as well. You know, a song like Love You Right, it felt wrong to only write about the personal. And even though everything is in the eye, I just used it as a kind of tool in a way. I wanted to get to something more universal. And that was my effort to do that. But yes, there are many drafts. I guess it's inevitable that the political backdrop feeds in somehow, but you probably have to resist that with certain types of songs, I assume.

25:15Well, you do and you don't. I mean, it's not literal anyway. Your humanity is pulled on in all directions. And you're like, well, does art change anything? Can I change anything with one word, one couplet? No, probably not. But I had this interesting conversation with someone the other day about that actually the energy in the room can change something. You know, if you write a song and you perform that song and someone in that room or many people in that room has a sort of shift in consciousness and not in some grand scheme of things, but just like music and this sort of

25:48humanity that we share. I mean, I went to see Big Thief the other night and it's not like anything there is political, but even just the dynamic between the band was so beautiful to see and the kind of honesty of their presence. It changed me. I came away like just feeling better about the world. And I think at least some of the writing on the record is quite sort of memory based. Is it cigarette curls? Draws on quite a specific sort of early friendship that you had. How do you

26:19take a memory that's so specific to you and turn it into a song that other people can inhabit? Well, I think what it is, it's just like, I see like the chords, like Amber, you know what I mean? You keep something in Amber and it lives forever. And it's like, they're nostalgic or they just conjure something in me that feels like something. And then maybe, you know, I'll go back down a kind of path and, and often I'll be thinking about stuff anyway. And then it'll just sort of migrate into the song. Or I'll have a little line that maybe I've got in the back of my mind and it's like,

26:53oh, there it is. There's its home. So they seem to emerge from some sort of impetus that forces you to think of a particular memory or a particular feeling or something. Yeah. Like for me, the piano seems to just hold a lot of resonance. I mean, obviously it holds a lot of resonance as an instrument, but also as a kind of like emotional resonance. I'm like, oh yeah, okay. It's like divination or, you know, you put your little sticks out and finding water. And for me, it's often this kind of mix of pulling on the past and then just feeling your way through

27:27into the sort of, and I don't know. Yeah, definitely. I enjoy holding memories in sound. I think you said once that songwriting is like redemption, you can kind of take that little snapshot of that memory and maybe do something else with it almost like keep the best bit of it or something like that. Yeah, that's nice. Good on me for saying that. I like that.

27:48Yeah, no, it's true. It's like, you know, you're changing neural pathways a little bit, don't you? But when it comes to songs, I do think that like a different part of my brain comes into play or something. Yeah. Are you one of those songwriters who thinks that certain instruments maybe hold songs in them? Because I know Weather Alive, the whole impetus for that record was a piano, wasn't it, that you found like an old battered piano? Yeah. I've heard that said, like, I think Johnny Marr said that to me. He was like, yeah, you know, an instrument has so many songs and at a certain point they've all been written, but I've got my beloveds and I keep

28:23giving. But it's true, this little puppy here, my Levin, he's, or she, whatever, we haven't been writing so many songs together, but still live, I love playing that guitar. I suppose you've got other colours you can draw on too, haven't you? Like Adrian Utley on guitar or Paul Butler's arrangements. I noticed there's horns and strings and movements and all kinds of stuff going on. Yeah. Adrian was in, on like the third day and it wasn't always clear what was happening and if it was going to be used. But again, it's like one of those times where you come away and

28:56you isolate the tracks and you really listen and you're like, fucking hell, that's kind of amazing. Like, that's beautiful. Like, yeah, that's staying. And in fact, I'm going to just put that the whole way through the track, that bit at the end there, that's coming through. And I like that as well, this idea of it not being perfect. No one's searching for perfection. Everyone's just sort of searching for some kind of truth and through their instincts, it's just like feeling around in the dark for what feels right. And you've said that you have a lot of fun making records. Is that

29:26joy still accessible even when the material maybe is quite heavy thematically? I'm not sure that fun is a word I would use, but I do get a lot of joy. I mean, I really do. I get very moved and the collaborative nature of music is one of my most beloved ways to commune with others. It's like, I'm not very good at chatting to people at parties at all. I'm good at listening, but that level of communication is the best.

29:57Yeah. I remember seeing something where you said that you'd done some writing that felt more kind of intellectual than emotional. I think it was around the Kid Stix kind of period. Well, that would make sense. Yeah. And I wondered if those kinds of songs are just as valuable to you as the stuff that goes straight to the heart.

Learning to produce and write

30:13I think Kid Stix was a notepad. It's where I learned to engineer. I learned Ableton. I learned logic. In terms of colors, I learned to start playing on a keyboard. I learned that you could make something out of like two finger notes, like one finger note. You put that through the right sound and you loop that in the right way. You have the basis of something. You could do what the hell you like with that. Then you add another part to that and another part to that. It was like kind of paint by numbers in a way. I did that with Andrew Hung from Buttons. That's how I learned to

30:49work on my own at home because I had little kids then. They were like four and seven or even younger, like three. I had them all around and I was just trying to still make music, but the best place to make it from was home. That's where I learned. That makes sense. I would have said it was an intellectual process because in a way, you know, I was sort of piecing pieces together. I'm not sure that's entirely true though, but I think what I meant was the kind of practical process of making

31:20a record was much more heady than it was heart because I was learning this new skill that I then brought home. That's when I was like, hang on, I'm going to take it off keyboard now and I'm going to play it on piano. That's when these songs started to be written. I could also be my own little band, so I was like, oh, and now I'm going to put this here and I'm going to start building up percussion and mess around. So yeah, that was definitely a kind of scrapbook notebook place that I started to learn what's gone on to be this new period of my life.

31:52going to be a good play. Going to be a good play. Some songwriters, when they look back at the kind of earlier stuff,

32:31they struggle to sort of recognize themselves in it. When you look back at something like, you know, the stuff from Trailer Park, like She Cries Your Name or something, do you see and hear a completely different writer or can you see a kind of through line to you today? Yeah, I see a through line. I was always thinking like, oh, I'll grow up one day, I'll just be this new human. And maybe that's what waiting's about as well, the song Waiting. It's like waiting to be the better person or like, I'll have kids and I'll become this hugely wise human.

33:02And I look back on those early records and I hear the wisdom of youth. You know before you know, actually. And then you have to learn to know, if you know what I mean. You start off just knowing and then you have to sort of like figure it out. And I do feel very connected to her. And at the same time, I feel like, yeah, I can't quite meet the expectations of the people who love that version of me. But having said that, it's funny.

33:33I just did these beautiful gigs the last year, like little gigs in like Aberdeen, Dundee. And playing the new songs with the old songs in these churches and small rock clubs has been the most rewarding and sort of exciting thing to do because people were going crazy for the new as much as the old. And I knew they were fans from the beginning because I would meet a lot of them afterwards and sign records. And they all had stories of this, that and the other. And now it's like, I think the selves have met now.

34:07Old Beth and new Beth. That's the thing in a way. It's like finding that alignment. You can be very different with what you do. You sort of need to find the alignment of this sort of true self, which can be a bit embarrassing sometimes or a bit uncomfortable, but you just sort of have to own all the parts of yourself. If that makes any sense, I don't know. No, it does.

William Orbit and Burt Jansch

34:30Yeah.

William Orbit and Burt Jansch

34:31There's some interesting stops along the way, weren't there? Like the stuff with William Orbit and guitar lessons with Burt Jansh. I thought that was fascinating. Yeah. I mean, William was where I learned to write a song. I was writing little poems anyway, and he had me in the studio and I was like, you know, 19 and would bung me some cash and I would do backing vocals on Madonna's Justify My Love. I'm like umming and ahhing in there somewhere or Seal Crazy or whatever it was he was working on. And he knew that I was kind of in a bit of a pickle

35:02and he just sort of helped me out a bit and I helped him out a bit. I would have to sit in his studio and listen to his mixes and he sort of like encouraged me to do something that felt very unnatural to be a singer. But what didn't feel unnatural was to write songs because I guess I listened so hard to music when I was a kid and I'd just start singing and it turned out I could sing but more than anything I had a lot of melodies. And then years later, you know, I was like, well,

35:33if this is something I can do and it just kept coming round like that, then I want to discover everything. And I was working with Jeff Travis from Rough Trade. He was my manager and he was like, I asked Bert for guitar lessons. And I was like, yeah, all right. And I don't think he thought I actually would, but I did. And we ended up working together for like four years or something. I went on tour with him. He had a shed. Nice. He had a garden shed. So yeah, he became my family.

36:04Yeah. And I think that completely changed your guitar picking style as well, didn't it? Did that do anything for your songwriting specifically? I mean, I don't know if it changed my style. I still play this very simple, like two finger, three finger picking pattern. Although having said that, it's when I play live that I really lean into what I got from he and I and the freedom of that playing. And I really enjoy that. I feel like songwriting wise, I made this record called Sugaring Season. And that was like my homage to him and to my husband and to this place in America called

36:40Vermont. And the Sugaring Season is when they tap the trees for the sugar where they make the maple syrup, which to me was just the most romantic, poetic, beautiful idea. I met Anne Briggs through Bert and learn about her music. And all of that influenced that record for sure. And that was the most kind of direct folk record I've made. It's interesting how all those experiences offer new ways to write songs, isn't it? And to maintain that joy that you talked about. Yeah. I mean, I'm certainly not doing it for the money anymore.

37:12Like if I ever was, it's just like a certain point, you just have to make it for the art. And that is just a fact. You have to, because what else is there? Even if you were making the big bucks, it has to be for the love. I think it just has to be. Otherwise, people don't, they feel it. It doesn't matter what genre, what this, that, the other, what level. I'm sure there's cynical people out there. I know there are who write like an algorithm. But I've just loved the meeting of people and how that's taken things.

37:43That was Beth Orton talking to us from... her shed studio about her new record the ground above and a lot more cool to get inside her

38:17creative process it really was she's obviously hugely respected for her artistry and her ability to harness the emotional core of her songs isn't she yeah so i really enjoyed finding out how she works and how she thinks about all that stuff like a lot of writers it's a highly intuitive process for her isn't it she tends to hit upon some kind of subconscious phrase see the beauty in it and then build the song from there yeah and she sees the value in just showing up as well it's not pure inspiration there's routine and graft in there too yeah and she said she had the ground

38:51above for a number of years didn't she but she knew it was important to let it find its right form yeah and that's useful advice you know you don't have to rush a song into existence you can let it incubate for a while i like that she experiments not only with bringing in musicians for particular sounds and textures but she herself will write on an old piano or guitar or whatever she finds has that particular resonance yeah and she's certainly got a lot of interesting experiences and memories to draw on as well well yeah i mean hearing about her interactions with people like william orbit and uh bert janch that was great wasn't it and there's a lesson there as well i think

39:25you know those guys are not necessarily from the same musical worlds but each inform their process in different ways and that's a useful takeaway too isn't it for a songwriter who might be building their community in a relatively narrow niche yeah you never know what a mentor from a markedly different walk of life might have to offer so cheers to beth for the lovely chat the ground above is out now thanks again to adrian for organizing and we'll see you on the next one bye for now is out now

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