Episode 323 - Chaka Khan

Introducing Chaka Khan

0:00Hi there, Brian and Simon here, welcoming you to another edition of So The Jerker on Songwriting. Joining us for episode 323 is, to put it succinctly, one of the greatest singers to ever do it. During a career which now spans over half a century, she's won 11 Grammys, including the Lifetime Achievement Award,

0:36sold over 70 million records worldwide, recorded an estimated 2,000 songs in a myriad of genres, and in 2023 was most deservedly inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Her stellar list of collaborators includes Prince, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, Quincy Jones, Joni Mitchell, Dizzy Gillespie, Ray Charles, Mary J. Blige, Stevie Wynwood and David Foster, to name a few. With her brand new album, Shaq Zilla, she's added Sia and super producer Greg Kirsten to that impressive list, and the results are a dance pop delight, with our guest's unmistakable vocals front and centre,

1:09just as they should be. We're genuinely honoured to welcome the singular Shaka Khan to the show. Shaka was born Yvette Marie Stevens in 1953 on an Air Force base in Great Lakes, Illinois, and raised in Hyde Park on the south side of Chicago, where there's now a street named after her. Both parents were music fans. Her beatnik dad was a jazz fanatic who introduced her to Billie Holiday, Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan, while her mother was a lover of opera. She formed her first band, The Crystalettes, when she was 11, and at 13 was in a singing group called Shades of Black with her sister, Taka Boom. It was during that time she was given the name

1:43Shaka, which means Woman of Fire, by a visiting African shaman. At 15, she was frequently performing in clubs and politically active as a member of the Chicago chapter of the Black Panthers. She was still just 18 when she replaced original lead vocalist Paulette McWilliams in Rufus, or Ask Rufus as they were then known. After signing to ABC Dunhill in 73, Rufus's first top 10 hit was 1974's Tell Me Something Good, written by Stevie Wonder, and they went on to enjoy sustained success throughout the 70s, with songs like You Got The Love and Sweet Thing, both co-written by Shaka,

2:13and Do You Love What You Feel. Shaka's undeniable talent and star power also earned her a solo deal with Warner Brothers, and her 1978 debut LP, Shaka, featured what was to become both her signature song and an enduring feminist anthem, the Ashford and Simpson penned I'm Every Woman. That record also marked the beginning of her dynamic creative partnership with legendary producer Arif Marden, with whom she went on to make 1980's Naughty, The Following Years' What You Gonna Do For Me and 1984's I Feel For You, with its Prince-penned title track. Despite her solo success,

2:45Shaka returned intermittently to Rufus until 1983, when they scored their final hit together with Ain't Nobody. Following her departure from Warner Brothers in 1996, Shaka teamed up with her old buddy Prince for 1998's Come To My House, issued on his NPG label. Later, she'd work with two of the Purple One's most successful protégés, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, on 2007's Funk This. A lengthy recording hiatus followed, but she came back strong with 2019's Hello Happiness, a collab with English producer Switch, which boasted the utterly infectious single Like Sugar.

3:16Just a few months ago, a stage musical about Shaka's fascinating life called I'm Every Woman opened in London, the city she called home for 30 years. It's not her first encounter with the theatre, she herself has trodden the boards in both the West End and in a production of The Colour Purple on Broadway. We should also mention her charitable efforts. In 1999, she co-founded the Shaka Khan foundation with her sister, Tammy Michelle, to help women and children at risk. If you're a first-time listener to Soda Jerker on songwriting, give us a follow, rating and review wherever you get your pods, and take a minute to peruse our back catalogue of well

3:48over 300 interviews. If you're feeling generous, support the show at SodaJerker.com slash donate. Lastly, we'd like to thank Sarah for her help setting up the interview you're about to hear. Okay, we hope you enjoy this conversation with a true queen, the one and only Shaka Khan. I've been waiting all my life for this moment. I've been waiting all my life for this romance. I've been waiting till I could let my hair down. I've been waiting for you to come around.

4:20You're the kind, you're the kind that I like. Creature of the night, creature of the light, you're the sign that I like. for a shining bright for a shining bright well it's great to see you shaka it's great to see you too welcome to the podcast thank you

Making the album Shaqzilla

4:56we wanted to start with the new record of course shakzilla oh yeah we're really keen to know more about your creative process you've been intensely involved in the writing of this record haven't you yeah i came up with the idea of shakzilla you know something that keeps me big yet small because i'm small plus i wanted to appeal not only to myself because i loved all the the godzilla movies when i was you know coming up and mothra and all those wonderful

5:28japanese monsters and i always liked them because they always had a depth to them they always had like a good side the monsters you know they weren't all just bloodthirsty killers they had a heart and there were good monsters they were bad monsters you know it was just so janky and it made it cool you know yeah no we just love that visual concept of this giant version of you appearing with a new record yeah yeah i love the look i love with every album that we used to get we had a nice big

6:07poster that we'd pop on the wall and i remember having friends i didn't have i had maybe two but i had friends that had 10 15 20 you know like a whole wall of their favorite people and i talked to a lot of people i got some feedback and found out that you know everybody's looking like what happened to the days when there was a big poster you got a poster with the album and at a point and i i felt the same way i think it's cool yeah i think a striking visual like that it kind of helps you

6:39get into the album it draws you into the music i want you to see how pretty the album is just hand it to me so you can see how pretty how we really put a lot of i don't know if you can see that oh yeah we can see it yeah it looks awesome but what's pretty that you haven't seen this is so pretty let me see how pretty that is oh that's nice you can see through it oh yeah it's fabulous isn't it really pretty that's beautiful so yeah so we took a lot of time and put a lot of love into this

7:10whole situation you can really hear it it's a very joyous album fun to listen to isn't it yes it is so you had that as a kind of a brief beforehand then you went in with that idea well really got the idea to do shockzilla whilst in the writing of the song and then we decided what kind of idea we would do for our video and so that's where i got really into it i always wanted to do something like that so i want to do something different interesting you know so i think

7:46that we did a good job yeah so that song sort of paved the way for the rest of the record did it the rest of the songs we weren't thinking that way we were just just writing i mean sia is just an amazing writer she is just the best ever she knows me and i asked her i said you know how is it you know you are singing me killing me softly with with your words on me i really felt like that you know i said how is it that you know you know exactly what i want to say you know and she says well i did grow

8:22up listening to you you know so i said okay all right you said it that makes sense so she really knows me she feels me we feel each other we're a lot alike we have a lot in common when it comes to life in general relationships and just how we feel about life yeah she's great we were looking back and we realized that um a mortal queen from sia's album couple of years ago was probably the first moment where it was you and sia and greg kirsten as well that seemed like it

8:56was kind of the seed for this maybe yeah those lyrics really really impressed me i was really impressed with her she's genius closest thing to her would be michelle and deggie on cello right yeah real about life and how you feel and you know nine yards they have that in common they're very similar hardcore yet loving she loves people you know and she wants everybody to be happy and honest and good

9:30you know at the end of the day we would like everybody to have their shit together excuse my french but also be able to be honest without hurting anybody's feelings deeply yeah that's really important isn't it in a collaboration absolutely i mean after immortal queen and i heard those lyrics i was like oh i'm in good hands i said i don't even have to think about it i just was like looking forward to the next song and the

10:01next one and to hear what direction we were going in i was really i was really really moved you know and really looking forward to working with her and still looking forward to working with her in future yeah how would the typical session unfold between the three of you who kind of would start the song and i can't snap my fingers but it went like that it went so fast it was crazy i mean i came in she had put down her background vocals where we're going to be there and she'll give me lead vocals then she

10:36stopped with that and we just focused on backgrounds and duets a duety kind of thing you know but in a quiet sneaking in and out way you know in and out it's beautiful it's beautiful way we work together no cuckoo collaborations no who's doing this who's doing that we just got in where we fit in in a really good way yeah so how did greg fit into that dynamic he was just unreal he didn't do anything he just is a genius when it comes to putting things together this man is just so capable

11:13he plays all those instruments as well everything he's like stevie wonder and somebody else mixed together you know you know so many great people mixed together one of our favorites on the album is always love the challenge mine too you've got that great line you know i might be small but i've got stupid talents that's great the winner takes it all and i always love the challenge see i would never have been able to say that in a poetic way that she did i mean that's brilliant and it's true

11:45she's right on it i was just so happy to work with somebody that understood me and it's as if we are half and half like half of me is her and the other half is myself and they mesh so well together she's a great sense of who i am and how i feel you know she gets me get rowdy don't doubt me wouldn't be nothing without me get rowdy get rowdy

12:19your scene ain't giving everything everything yeah i fight all night till my body feels right my body feels right feels right

Rejecting tired ballads

12:57were there any times maybe where you thought a song was going to be great but then maybe it didn't pan out you know the lyrics didn't come or you just couldn't finish it were there any sort of stumbling blocks like that along the way oh we did yeah we had one trying to do a ballad now i'm real funny about ballads anyway i don't consider myself a balladeer the song for me has to be different i like just the regular oh i love you you did me wrong i don't want to do whatever i don't want to hear that tired crying and stuff

13:30i can't stand it but she doesn't write like that she writes real she talks for real so the only problem i had was with the ballad situation it'd be tough to find the right lyric for us you know what i'm saying i mean all throughout my career it's not been an easy task for me to find a lyric that really moves me yeah with rf martin he was a special man he knew how to get me

14:00excited about it yeah i don't like wah wah wah you know and no it's interesting you mentioned that contrast between you know the music and the lyrics because we were going to mention bring the party which kind of does that you know it's got an upbeat feel to it but it's quite philosophical about the nature of winning and losing we thought yeah and that's not what you would ordinarily find in a in a ballad ballads are not talking about bringing the party you know they're like talking about when

14:32you got home from the party who brought you home and whatever else is going on you know i just don't like to whine you know i'm saying i like power balance that talk about your strengths and how to stay balance and rather hardcore subjects i prefer i'm really about telling the truth on my truth when it comes to balance and stuff like that i really am i don't want to look like

15:06a loser and i want anyone to look like a loser you know i want everybody to to get something good and to make you stronger that's the kind of balladella that instead of oh my god you left me what am i gonna do could never live without you i just can't take that yeah something like through the fire is probably a good example isn't it one that's kind of a slower more dramatic song but it's

15:37got that sort of strength and conviction in it exactly exactly and that's what saved the whole thing it does say what i would do for a chance to be with you i'd gladly risk it all but it's the music the chord changes and even the words they don't come off sad and weak i don't think so

16:04but somehow you know something about it had a strength of character to it that i could get with it's hard to explain it's easier to feel but it's hard to talk about you know what i'm saying it's hard to say it's hard to say so is it the music and the chords that kind of give you that feeling and does that lead you to

How songs write themselves

16:59the words or might the words just start on paper first before there's even any music often i've written poems however usually when i have written poems i don't use the whole poem i'll take a line or two and build on that it's a totally different thing it's a magical thing you know writing songs and then fitting the whole vibe and the feel sometimes it could be really easy i've had some really easy ones but they're already written somewhere in outer space and they just came to

17:32me that's happened a couple times for some reason do you feel like um maybe the best songs are the ones that arrive quickly or is it just as satisfying to kind of maybe labor over a song for a while no no laboring and stuff over so i can't take it i don't have time for that and the best songs are the songs that come up really quickly they write themselves in a sense yeah i think you've said that about like an established classic like sweet thing you know i think that i've said that was

18:03written in sort of five minutes practically five minutes time but yeah some of the best songs are the ones that write themselves the words are there already in the music you just have to have that third year you sort of hinted that a little bit in curious subject on the new album where you say the more i grow the less i know and that's the way i want to be yeah yeah it's just a more instinctive thing isn't it that's right i really like that one i love it too it's one of my favorites it's so honest it's a very honest lyric i'm a curious subject well i know the less i know and

18:41that's the way i want to be that's one of my favorite lines by the way and she said it she helped me put it out there i didn't have to to sugarcoat anything i never was a sugarcoater and she got that that's the most important thing it's probably a poppiest album i would say of of anything i mean you've covered a lot of musical terrain over the years but this one feels to me the most direct pop flavored kind of album absolutely i mean she goes straight for the jugular and i love that because

19:12that's the way i am i mean she got that right away that's part of the success of this old dance album or cd i think it's bigger than that it's deeper than just dance and it has something more to it i think a lot more time and what greg did with these chord changes and things are amazing it's very sophisticated yeah it's down to earth so i i could be in a better place i'm a rocker you know and i love being able to sing this this kind of music it's so much fun for me i have great fun

19:47singing these songs yeah it's poppy i enjoyed i really enjoyed coming back to like my roots i mean i started out you know with rufus really but more of a poppy and a funk yeah the melodies are really memorable is there a lot of discussion between you and sierra and greg about the shape of the tune the actual melody no this is what i'm really trying to get across is that how easy this whole thing was it was just i came in i would knock out three songs

20:22bam bam bam in a day because it felt like me it felt like me it was so familiar you know i felt very comfortable and happy i really felt really happy seeing all of these songs every one of them and that is rare for me i usually have favorites every song it's a favorite song yeah it's something very special i don't know why i don't know why i don't know why i don't know why i'm getting high i'm getting high

The voice as an instrument

21:06and i think you've talked in the past about sort of visualizing your voices as like a saxophone and being influenced by horn players like you know miles davis and charlie parker more than by singers do you still apply that to writing melodies you're still thinking that way like a horn player

21:39i never really tried to mimic a horn or anything like that just turns out that my voice sounds like a horn yeah and i grew up with a father who was an avid jazz fanatic and so i'm sure that had something to do with how i approach melodies and music i wondered if you're drumming fed into it at all i wonder if that sort of underpinned the way that you sing and the way that you phrase things and that

22:09sort of stuff yeah yeah yeah i fancy myself as an instrument as well a lead instrument of sorts that's how i see my vocals and my singing as like i'm just a part of the of the whole thing on one of the instruments i know every part i can take them to them we can really talk like one instrument to another that's a good thing yeah it kind of feels like that on boogies in my soul with snoop it's like two instruments kind of intertwining yeah it is it's interesting isn't it

22:44i think that's really cool it really is i mean this has been something that i've been waiting to do and i didn't know it the best things happen i think like that i knew it would be great i knew there'd be a wonderful collaboration i just didn't know what way or the depth of it that's quite interesting to me because i mean one would assume that you know if you're making a shaka khan record then obviously you're going to have a lot of control over most aspects of that so it sounds

23:17like you would have had to open yourself up to letting your collaborators take the lead in order to just experience something that you weren't expecting to be as great i had no expectations that's all i really knew you know that's the only real thought that i gave to the whole situation i wondered was maybe the aspect of um the vocal arranging was that something that you maybe took more charge of or was that also a very collaborative thing between you and and sia

23:47she'd lay out the clothes and i have to put them on let's put it like that right when we're looking at it so yeah we both did a lot of work both worked our own particular magic i can't get enough of these songs i can listen to this cd all day and over and over again and that's that's really rare for me no we love it too i mean we've heard it a few times now and it's i mean it was great the first time but it just grows on you with every listen i find exactly you keep hearing new stuff or something

24:21you didn't hear before or something like that but it has a life that seems to mature you know what i mean and it seems to have a growth and it seems to have a maturation that is i think interesting let me bring your temperature down now let me bring your temperature down now let me bring your temperature down now let me bring your temperature down no you're burning up as you see no you're on fire let me cool you down

24:53cool you down baby let me take care of your body tell me what you want and let me cool you down cool you down baby

Vocal arrangements and Arif Marden

25:05It's interesting as well that Sia even was involved with the sort of Vocal arranging aspect of it because Your own back and vocal arrangements Are one of the great sort of Underrated parts of your career There's the vocals on Addicted to Love There's your stuff on Higher Love Stevie Wynwood and even those early The early Stephen Bishop stuff Oh yeah, yeah We loved on Little Italy and stuff like that Yeah, I love Little Italy That's one of my all-time favorite songs

25:35Love that song, beautiful She's been in a movie, she's been in a soundtrack Oh yeah Fine song, yeah, Steve Bishop Yeah, he's great We wondered, how do you go about building a vocal arrangement Is it something where you just kind of hear All the parts once or is it Kind of a trial and error thing Well, all he had to tell me was that He said, okay, this song Is about Little Italy Well, I grew up in Chicago And you know, I know about the Little Italy stuff

26:06That was going on You know, all the great foods And celebrations going on That my mother and my grandmother Were hip to And when I heard his song And he said, look All you have to do is just be a mother Singing to her son And he didn't have to give me that I would have got that eventually But he said Just be a mother singing to her son You know, and it was beautiful The words were fabulous The musical aspect of it was gorgeous

26:36It was just a joy, a joy Sounds like a very intuitive process Mm-hmm, yeah Didn't Arif Mardan, who you mentioned before Didn't he want to tell you that your background parts didn't work on paper? Yes I'm not an avid fan Of written music It's not about what's written on paper Music, of all things Especially It's not about that So, you know, I kept that in mind When I told him Okay, it doesn't work on your paper

27:08But your ears say It's all beautiful It's wonderful It's beautiful But it is wrong I said, okay I don't have a problem You have a problem It's the only way I know to sing it Yeah But that creative tension Had some amazing results, didn't it? You know, like I think you wrote I Know You, I Live You With Arif, didn't you? Yeah Yeah Which, I think that's the only one you did Write together Yeah, I think you're probably right I mean, that's one of my all-time favorites Do you have any memory of writing that song?

27:39Uh No I don't even recall us writing it At least you're honest Yeah, I'm saying I believe that most of the song was being written as we were doing it too You know what I'm saying? It wasn't like something that we wrote down Oh, so that would have been something maybe you just kind of came up with in the studio Or something like that? Yeah, absolutely Often songs happen when you're walking in And the guys are jamming Like three of them are already there And they have this idea, this jam

28:10You know, Arif has Um Core changes that he thinks are beautiful And work That's how a lot of the songs came We're writing them as we go along For the most part I suppose it didn't hurt to have people like Anthony Jackson Around as well Oh my god I tell you I would be in there Lying at his feet So I could really Hear Where his Rhythm was coming from On his feet And I watched his head bobbing And I I got the whole thing And what a genius

28:41Yeah Truly What a genius Yeah, no, his bass parts on On that stuff Like on what you're gonna do for me And all that kind of So good Yeah, right Well, they're like little symphonies in themselves They're like compositions, aren't they? They're complete And it's funny We were watching an old concert of yours From the early 80s With Anthony on bass I think it's Live at the Roxy Yes And he plays this crazy fill at one point I think it's during Naughty It does And you spin round towards him As if to say What the hell was that?

29:12You know, it's like And I love that because It shows that you were paying such close attention To what he was doing Oh yes Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes I'm a bass addict When you meet A genius On his axe He explored Every Possible Part That a bass could play Like I feel the sun in the morning Like I see the moon at night I think I know you more than you know yourself

29:44I know you I live you Know you Live you Love you Love you You're kind of the same though Aren't you In the sense of exploring with your voice as the instrument I mean the The stuff that you've interpreted Whether it's the Beatles Or jazz standards Or whatever

30:14You've got that skill as well Haven't you? I see my voice as an instrument as well You know I do Yeah Is there a kind of a specific key To getting inside those songs And making them your own? Do you almost have to feel like you did write the song In order to like Get to the heart of it? I have to feel Like I had something to do with it I mean really And it's a beautiful thing When somebody Gets me an offering Of that sort I think that's a wonderful thing That people can Get you They understand Yeah And you tend to know

30:45Don't you What's right for you There's that famous story of Stevie Wonder Playing A song And you saying Have you got anything else? Like the confidence that takes Well no I can always tell Here's the deal If I was going to write a song For Aretha Franklin I wouldn't just bring any old song To Aretha Franklin I'd put thought into that song I'd really I wanted to feel like Yeah this is me This is me in here I would have written that There you go Something like that

31:15I guess that happened With Through the Fire Didn't it Which we mentioned earlier Because I believe that David Foster has said That that's the only melody He's written With a specific Person in mind Which was you And I think it was called Shaka That track Yeah that's what the song Was called It was an instrumental song And he called it Shaka He did a good job It's a beautiful song It's a gorgeous song I'm real sensitive To how you slowly Sing something to somebody It's gotta be

31:46Something that I can take And make Interesting And real I guess if you bring that To a song You've got a chance Haven't you Of making An iconic song I mean literally Every time we Turn the car on And the radio starts It's I'm Every Woman You know Like that song is Just this perennial Classic now isn't it But there must have been A point where that was Just an Ashford and Simpson demo Yeah right Yeah But you bring yourself To that And add to it I guess Yeah I did

32:16I had to put me on it I don't recall Changing any lyrics But I did treat The song In a very Particular way Do you mean in terms Of those harmonies Those descending Lines and things Yeah right In the way I I rhythmically Put the words I can be Thought right now And what I need To say You know Those things like that Those are mine You know I had to Interpret it My way I had to saxophone it You know Put some sax on it

32:50I did it I can read your thoughts right now I can read your thoughts right now Everyone from here to sing Oh I can read your thoughts right now It does seem that you're quite fearless in the studio

Collaborating with Prince

33:25with just trying stuff like that. Well, you know, it's the one place in my life that I trust. I trust the gift. Yeah, you mentioned Michelle Endergeo Cello earlier, who you did never miss the water with, of course. And I saw an interview with her once where she said the thing she admired most about you in the studio was that you would just try any idea, no matter how crazy. You know, it didn't matter if it sucked. Right? Yeah. I guess that's how you have to be. You do. A song is a living expression from somebody.

33:58And, you know, after a while, you could tell if it was a true offering or if it was something to get by. So, yeah, Michelle is just so special. And that's a joy and a learning experience for me. Oh, yeah. No, she's brilliant. Probably quite similar to encountering someone like Prince, I imagine, as well. You know, just a multidimensional person. And you probably have to be quite fearless around them.

34:29That's right. And if they come to you, that's what's up. You know? Well, yeah, because you're one of the few people who can say you genuinely co-wrote with Prince. Yeah, that's true. That's incredible. He's such a great guy. He's a wonderful person. And so honest with his lyrics. He was great, period. Everything he did, from basketball to writing songs. He was just the best. And I think on that project, Come to My House, he got you to write the words first.

35:00Is that right? And he responded with the music? He would tell me to go write poetry. And then he would put the music. But that's the way I was writing when I first started writing. With Rufus. You know, I would write a poem. Show Bobby and Kevin and Tony. And we'd come up with some music. So it was like going back to the beginning, then? Yeah. These are things that are tried and true, and they just stay with me. So interesting, isn't it? How everyone just seems to have a different route to getting to the same destination. Yeah. True that.

35:31Dig that. Some people have to live it. I've written some songs because I was actually feeling it. I was feeling hurt, something like that. Feeling emotional. And we just spilled a song like that sometimes. But like, ain't nobody. Huck came with the whole shebang. There's nothing I could do to help. Really? Wow. That was totally complete, was it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. He really studied me. He got me. He hit the spot.

36:01Yeah. Amazing. Well, Shaka, thanks so much for talking to us. We've absolutely loved hearing about the new record and all of your other work as well. This year has been a gas. And it looks like this year is never going to stop.

36:15New things keep popping up. It's really an exciting time for me right now. I'm just trying to hold it down. Well, you're doing a great job. Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm working at it. You know, and I got a lot of support. People around me, my sister, Tammy, and my makeup artist, who's here, Sheree. She's sitting here, so I got to mention her. I'm just kidding. We have our makeup artist off camera, too. Do you really? Oh, I know. Great job.

36:48Oh, no, thanks. It's a real honor to speak to you. And thanks so much for giving us your time. Oh, no, it's mine. It's been a pleasure. Cheers. Cheers.

37:05That was the one and only Shaka Khan talking to us about her new album, Shaqzilla, and a whole lot more besides. What a total joy to sit down with one of the all-time greats. And what a lovely, warm presence she is as well. She is, and clearly that partnership with Sia is very much at the heart of this new record, isn't it? Definitely, yeah. And what she said about vocal arranging

37:36really stuck with me, too. That Sia lays out the clothes and Shaka puts them on. Yeah, that's a great description. And she was equally generous about Greg Kirsten, wasn't she? She said he's a one-man band. Yeah. And the speed of it all was remarkable, wasn't it? Mm-hmm. She said she'd come in and knock out three songs in a day because everything felt so familiar and so much like her. And that chimes with what she said about the best songs being the ones that write themselves. You know, you just need that third ear to hear them. I found her philosophy on ballads fascinating, too.

38:06She's got no time for whining or self-pity, has she? No, I guess that's why something like Through the Fire works for her, because even though it's a vulnerable and earnest and dramatic song, it never comes off as sad or weak. Yeah, I agree. And that story about Arif Marden was pretty striking, too. You know, when he told her that the background vocals didn't work on paper. Yeah. And she said, well, what do your ears tell you? It reminded me a bit of George Martin and the Beatles there. You know, how that mix of formal training and pure instinct can produce real magic.

38:38Yeah, and that instinct for making a song her own came up again, didn't it, with I'm Every Woman? Mm-hmm. She didn't change a word of it, it seems, but she treated it in a really particular way, with the rhythmic placement of the words until it was unmistakably hers. I guess an exception to that is Ain't No Body, which arrived pretty much fully formed. Yeah, but that's only because Hawke Walensky had studied her, hadn't he? And he knew exactly what she needed. And the rest is history. So Shaqzilla is out everywhere now. Thanks so much to the legendary Shaqa for her time

39:08and Tammy for additional support on the day. And cheers also to Sarah for making the interview happen. We'll be back soon with more of the greats. Bye for now.

39:21Bye for now.