Bonus: Sacha Skarbek and Ben Parker at the Sodajerker Songwriting Lab (Live)

Opening the songwriting lab

0:00Hi everyone, just dropping in with a bonus episode to share this conversation that we had with Sasha Scarbeck and Ben Parker at the recent Soda Jerker Songwriting Lab on the 4th of September. Yep, our one-day workshop took place at the Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, where we transformed the fourth floor into a pop-up brill building for the day. It was such a fun process though, wasn't it? Oh, I loved it. Yeah, we had 15 writers and they came in, they didn't know each other for the most part, and they managed to just sit down, get to know each other,

0:30and start writing, and in a day, they turned out such fantastic songs, didn't they? Yeah, it was super impressive how everyone embraced the experience and rose to the challenge. So good, and we had support from our guests all day, didn't we? Sasha and Ben gave such good feedback. They were brilliant. I couldn't think of two better people to have done this with, to be honest. Yeah, we had loads of great feedback from our writers as well, who absolutely loved the experience. So, thanks to Sasha and Ben again for their time and their enthusiasm, and cheers to all the writers who went on this journey with us.

1:01Hear, hear. If you fancy coming to the next one, join our mailing list or email us through our website and let us know, and we'll be in touch when we announce another event. But for now, enjoy our chat with Sasha and Ben.

Introducing Ben and Sasha

1:12Our first guest is Ben Parker, originally signed to Universal as one half of Ben and Jason in the early 2000s. He's gone on to build a career as a songwriter, session musician, and producer, working with the likes of Paolo Nuttini, Razorlight, The Libertines, Paul Weller,

1:46Westlife, Take That, and Natalie Imbruglia. And he's currently one half of the transatlantic folk duo Sons of Town Hall. Joining him is Sasha Scarbeck, two-time Ivor Novella-winning songwriter, producer, and composer. Sasha is probably best known for co-writing James Blunt's number one hit, You're Beautiful, which was nominated for a Grammy, but other huge tracks from that album as well, like Goodbye My Lover and Wise Men. You'll also know his work on Wrecking Ball, Miley Cyrus, and Adele's Cold Shoulder from her album 19.

2:17Over the years, he's worked with countless artists, including Jason Mraz, Lana Del Rey, Tears for Fears, James Bay, All Saints, Backstreet Boys, to name just a few. Together, Sasha and Ben run the Scarbeck Songwriting Academy and are really at the vanguard of songwriting education in the UK. So we are very lucky to have them with us. Please give a round of applause for Sasha and Ben.

2:44Welcome, gents. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you for that wonderful introduction.

How the two songwriters met

2:49I feel elevated. Well, first of all, we wondered, how did you two actually meet? Like, we know a lot about your sort of individual successes, but not how you joined forces. Do you know what? We met, weird enough, you were working with Paolantini. I was just sort of coming off the back of the James Blunt record, and Warners had said to me, do you have another James Blunt that you're working with that you think is really great? And I was like, maybe, I don't know. Let me quickly find one.

3:20My manager was always one of those people who said, just say yes, just say yes. So I actually had found this amazing guy who was a social worker who was writing some songs, and I was helping out a bit. So I said, I'll bring him up to this. It was like a Warner Brothers conference, I think it was, you know, to showcase new talent. And all the heads of the labels were there and stuff like that. And I remember this guy was saying to me, you know, you're going to be great. It's really good. And he went on, and he did a really, really good job, and you could see people, oh, that's really interesting like that. The problem was is that Ben and Paolantini came on afterwards, and it was like, oh, dear.

3:54And that's how we met. And it was the penthouse of the Lowry Hotel in Manchester. So it was kind of like a very odd space to be doing that kind of thing. Each artist, the dressing room was a hotel room. So we kind of were all over this sort of building. We got chatting afterwards over a beer and knew a bunch of mutual friends, and that was it. Yeah. Downhill ever since.

Surviving in the music business

4:19Did you know from early on that you wanted to devote your lives to the arts? Because it's quite a specific thing to do, isn't it? And there's lots of talented people out there, but not everyone necessarily can weather the storms of a life in the music business. Wow. That's a biggie. When you put it like that, it's like, wow, is that actually what I've done? Sounds like a ridiculous idea. I just knew that my safest place in the world was in the middle of music. You know, that was just where I felt like the people that I mixed with were my people.

4:53What I was communicating was the clearest I could communicate and the most emotionally kind of straightforward to me. And that, I think, paved the way for me thinking, well, if I can go through my life surrounded by that, that's a pretty incredible life to live. I think I was similar in terms of, it was my safe space always to be in music and playing and creating. But I also think it was a sense of, I didn't know what else to do. I was sort of a student and I've always been in music and I didn't know life without it.

5:26And so in one way, I think that sort of helped because I didn't have too many other options. It was just, well, that's what I've got to do. So I think that's where I ended up.

Imposter syndrome and room psychology

5:34Yeah. And both of you, you've been in rooms with people at the very top of the industry. That must take a hell of a lot of confidence. Would you say that success builds that kind of confidence or have you also felt at times like you were maybe in over your heads? Every day. Yeah, every time. I think whether it's an incredible artist or another great producer, I think nearly every single one of them will talk about imposter syndrome. Every single one of them has moments of, what am I doing here? I shouldn't be here.

6:05They're going to find me out. And people mask it in different ways. You'll get some which will overcompensate. And so what is then perceived as being a bit arrogant or a bit difficult actually is them feeling a bit more insecure. I think the more you do it, the more you're able to read that. But also, the more you're able to say to yourself, I mean, there's been loads of times where I've had to go into and even still now where I have to go into a session and I have to give myself a bit of a talking to and go, it's all right. You've got this. You know, you've done this before. You can do it.

6:36Just hold fast and stay with it. You should learn that as you get a bit older. But it's an interesting one because I think even the best are all kind of those times going, I don't know really what I'm doing here. Yeah. For me, it was this realization. I did a lot of session playing when I was a lot younger with some really big names. And I learned that it's not about being the best musician in the room. It's about being the best kind of human being in the room. Like we talk about this a lot with our other academy courses, those soft skills of just being in the room with people and appreciating the chemistry and the air and who you are in that space is everything.

7:15Reading a room is so important and understanding, even if it's just two of you, it's understanding A, how that person's feeling emotionally, what you're then going to be trying to achieve out of it. And then also, if you're in the role of producer, writer, as it were, or co-writer, it's like, okay, well, what's my job here? Is it I've just got to sit back and listen? Or is my job, I've got to lean forward a bit and I've got to drive this a little bit. I've got to kind of coax this out of this other person.

7:45The psychology of it is incredibly important. So do you find then that some of these very illustrious people that you've worked with, they have their flaws on show as well when you meet them and maybe they're getting stuck in the same way that you might get stuck?

Working through walls with major artists

7:58Definitely. I mean, to give you an example with Adele, she can write songs completely by herself. But there was a thing where you go, well, you know, maybe you need another person to help just take it a little bit further up. Maybe that's musically or whatever it is. And when she was put into a studio with me, she was very defensive and I kind of felt a little bit like one of those kind of monkeys doing the sort of tin cans and cymbals and bass trumps trying to come up with ideas. And it was just, what do you think about this? It's all right. And there was not much coming and I was really like, oh dear.

8:32It's more like Alec Gillis than Adele. It was like she was in the room. These aren't the joys you're looking for. And then I remember finishing that night thinking, my God, that was awful. That was so hard work. And actually thinking, you know what, I'm not going to, I think I'm just going to pull the session tomorrow. And then my wife being the sort of calm one goes, just go back in, just go back and try a couple of hours. If it's not working, then, you know, then call it a day. So the following day I go back in and I'm like, you know, start the monkey business again.

9:03And I then finally thought, you know what, this isn't working. So I said to her, listen, I know you don't want to be here. And this shouldn't be like you're sitting in a dentist chair. And I understand, you know, you write great songs, you've got a great voice. So I much prefer that we just go and have some egg and chips or a pint or whatever it is like that. And we call it a day. And then when you feel maybe we can get back to go, let's do that. The minute I said that, her heckles kind of went down a bit and she just went, oh, I've got this one idea.

9:33And then bang, two hours later, cold shoulders out. So it's so often happens like that. It's, you know, how do you, how do you get to that point you need to get to? Yeah. And that could be in multiple ways. And then you'll have other artists that you, you've got to be a bit more driving with. And some people are like, you know, some producers and I've worked with before where there are artists in there and they'll be like, so what you got? And the artist's like, well, what do you mean? What have I got? Well, yeah, come on then. What are you here for? And they're like, oh, well, how about this?

10:04Well, that's no good. What? Oh, okay. Give us another one like that. And they'll push, push, push. And then comes the, yeah, that one's good. Let's go with that. That's really good. Well done like that. And you can see, so that's the psychology of taking them down a bit, but then building them back up. It's an interesting process. There's a lot of, you know, you've got to have the compassion to understand that other people are scared as well. And I think what we do with successful people is we project onto them this kind of omnipotent ability to just go and do their stuff.

10:35But actually all the people we've ever worked with underneath that is a general fear of whether they can do it again, whether the last time was the only time and the last time they were going to do it. And there's a great saying in, in recovery, which is ego is the soldier of fear. So you send your ego out often when there's a fear underlying that. And all of that stuff is again, the chemistry in a writing room. There's so much of that going on. I mean, we've been in sessions together with people where it's like, whoa, what's going on here?

11:06And like, you have to pull out all of your skills that have nothing to do with being able to play the guitar or sing or write a melody or write a lyric. Like, but that is the journey you go on to communicate to other human beings. If you've gone on that journey, you've been compassionate that they have their shit as well, then you can write a song. If you can be in your creativity, if you can be fearless and you can access your gut, that is the key to it. You know, some people are able to do that by themselves, but other times people maybe need that environment to be able to do that.

11:39Or if you're the artist and you're on your own, your job is to give yourself that space. Go, I've got to be fearless with this. I've got to feel confident and I've got to access my gut, not sitting in my head, being anxious about, oh, am I good enough? Oh, is that idea crap or whatever it is? It's so important about how you set your mindset and your environment to be able to do that. Yeah. We were going to say that it's a lot of it's about sort of setting expectations, isn't it? You know, I think we have this ideal in our minds about what a great song is and, you know, maybe we want to achieve that every time we sit down and write.

12:13But if it was that easy, of course, everyone would be doing it. But it is a case of just starting sometimes, isn't it? And letting go of the perfectionism and creating a space for something to happen rather than like, go, I must write an instant classic. Like, I think it was an old guy, I can't remember, but I think he said that thing about, you know, you kind of have to sit underneath the apple tree every day in the hope that every now and again, the apple drops down and then you're there to catch it. And I do think that is right in that you're not going to be able to do it every single day. There are all sorts of different factors that come in, but you have to allow yourself the opportunity and chance to make it happen.

12:50Doing anything is kind of a risk, isn't it, really? I mean, we've had this experience, haven't we, making the podcast even? Yeah. You know, we've sat in these rooms. When you sit in rooms with those people. Yeah. I mean, we've sat in Claridge's in London, in some kind of suite, waiting for Paul Simon to walk in. Like, the man's face is on the Mount Rushmore of songwriters. Yeah. And we're like, what are we doing here? And that's a case of, yeah. Look at each other. Talk about imposter syndrome. Look at each other and go, do you know what you're doing? I don't do. Yeah. But what's great is I think it comes down to the fact that we're all in this room because we absolutely love music and we love songs.

13:26And when you're struggling with writing and your process, and I think it becomes even more difficult when you become successful doing it, you have to remember your playful self that connected to it at the very beginning. What did it feel like when you worked out those chords to yesterday and thought, how on earth has he gone from F to A7? And it's that kind of thing where it's like, everything needs to be a discovery. Yeah. Curiosity is key. And I think also that thing, especially everyone in this room is we all have to remind ourselves, why are we here?

14:00Why are we doing this? Because we love this idea. We love this thing that we do. And it's never quite as scary as you imagine it might be. Is it really? Like people have a basic humanity about them. Yes. Don't they? When you connect with the people you've written with. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, they're just people trying to make something. It's always the anticipation, which is the hardest part to it. So even today, you know, we'll be going into rooms and, you know, there'll be a certain level of anticipation. Oh, I wonder how it goes. Oh God, I hope I'm not crap. Oh my God. That's the hardest bit.

14:30I'm nervous writing with anyone on any level. And I think there's an edge to that that just reminds you that you're human going into it. And I think the day I go in going, man, we're going to nail a hit today is the day that it just fails and falls apart. Yeah. Maybe unfinished songs, the most common casualty of the writing process. Yeah. Yeah. We wondered if like at the academy, you know, people who join, do they have lots of unfinished bits and pieces? Because we talk a lot about finishing because that's one of the hardest things to do with your creativity, with your work.

15:04At what point are you letting go of that? Are you completing something? And there are multiple reasons why we don't want to let go of it because we're almost letting go a little bit of our heart, our soul, a part of us. And then comes also the analytical side of it, which is like, oh, maybe I should just change that hi-hat pattern to this and put a B-flat in here or whatever it might be. I think it's interesting that having a door to work on has given the power to so many creatives to finish their own thing on their own.

15:37And yet, actually, I think in a way it stops us from finishing. I mean, I have a solo record that was recorded 20 years ago that is still on a hard drive and it still has some of the best songs I've ever written on it. But putting it out meant I was saying to the world, that's who I am now. And I was so scared of doing that. And I now know that's why it's still on that hard drive. All of that stuff ties into why we stop ourselves, why we give ourselves reasons.

Finishing songs and letting go

16:05You know, you've always been really good at this numbers game thing. It's like just get used to writing a song and getting it to a state where it's understandable and legible for people to get it and then start in writing another one. Yeah, I think it's very much that thing of you're putting your whole heart and soul into something. And at the same time, you've then got to let it go really quick. So it's like little children that you're constantly just going, okay, bye-bye now. You're on your own. You'll find some food by the bins. But also you understanding that you don't have the control over that anymore.

16:40And that I also think is a big part going, okay, how much is in my control? Okay, I can do that. But then after that, you can't be, you know, writer, artist, label, distributor, press. You can't be all of those things. So you have to understand that. And then you have to go, okay, right, I let that go. And then you've also got to have that mindset of, okay, why? Well, what's next? Why do I do this? Well, I do it because I love that creation side of it. This is like, okay, great, brilliant. Get back in. I think it's really hard as well today with self-releasing independent artists where what they're working on in their bedroom then has to become something that has the right photos with it.

17:18And the right campaign that puts a lot of pressure then on what you're making in your bedroom, whereas, you know, used to be in the good old days, you'd book a studio and then you'd go in and you, you know, you make that. No one's thinking about, yeah, but what's the catch is hooked to hit TikTok views within the first three seconds. You know, no one's thinking about that. And yet the business is becoming like that. And we have to work out how we're going to straddle the two. So the material that you've got that has been hanging around for a long time. Should you apply a kind of rule to that about when you're going to abandon it or is that stuff that you will go back and draw on over time and maybe take bits and pieces of it for new work?

17:54I think with the finishing thing is it's finishing at this moment in time, this is finished and I have to go, okay, right. For now that is finished, but that's not saying that you're not able to go back to it and either rework it or add to it or whatever it might be. If you're finding that it's stopping you moving forward, then that's where the problem lies. So I think it's, you can finish something, but you can also go back to it. Yeah. There's certainly a thing I've found where if you do a bunch of writing sessions with artists and nothing sticks, nothing gets cut.

18:29But you do start going into the process going, will this ever see the light of day? And it certainly is, I've gotten older and I know you're the same. It's like when an artist comes to you to write with you, you have to be quite business about the reasons why you're going to write with them. You know, are they managed? Have they got a label? What are their socials like? Are they putting in the hard work? Because it's like, if they're not putting in the hard work, someone who's not writing as good a song, who's spending a couple more hours a day putting the right posts out and, you know, massaging the audience are getting more plays.

19:05That's just the world we live in. So you have to kind of look at it and go, well, that's great, but I can see you don't really like social media yet. Actually, you'd be brilliant if you did. I can't change that, but do I want to invest my time in hoping that you will one day go, I'm a brilliant singer, but I'm also brilliant at social media and I'm going to put the hours in. But I think it's always been like that. It's just a different landscape we're in. If you're a producer and you get an opportunity to work with a band, you're choosing on the basis of like, well, are they great singers? Are they great performers?

19:36Do I think they have a future? Am I passionate about what they're trying to do? So that needs to be reciprocated, I think, from the band or the artist. And I think it's just a slightly different landscape at the moment. Yeah. And if you're dealing with an artist who has like a whole infrastructure around them, you know, A&R and management and all of that, do you find that their team is often kind of keen to hear what's happening and maybe interfere a little bit?

20:02I don't want to tell tales out of school. Listen, you know, you get classics where it's like you've got the artist in, you've met them that morning, you know, you do the hour or so, we both believe in this kind of thing where at the beginning of the day, it's like a cup of tea and a chat. And it's not like, I've got this great idea. You want to sing over it, don't you? You know, you have to pull back from that. And we'll talk a bit about this today. You've got to be this constant overseer of your own time in that kind of collaboration where at the end of the day, you kind of got to have something. Vocals are king, so you've got to spend enough time in your mind going, when are we going to start recording vocals?

20:37Which means there's a cutoff point in the day where you've got to have all the lyrics written and all the melodic elements written. And then boom, manager calls, oh, I'm in the area, I'll drop by at three, love to hear something. And the last thing you want to do is press play on an untuned, uncomped vocal in front of the manager because the song could be brilliant. But if those elements don't feel right. He's not hearing the production. Yeah, they'll go, yeah, not so sure about that. Not so sure about that, Sasha guy. But that is kind of what happens. I mean, they say, we'll get onto that later.

21:07No, I think it's in one way, teams are incredibly important. And I think now more than ever, as Ben's highlighted in terms of the landscape that we're in, your labels are having less power or less control of it. The artists that are coming up and that seem to be successful have pretty solid teams from an early start. So that tends to be sort of from management, then through into press and then in through to their own producers or co-ets. So whether you're Olivia Dean or Ray or an artist like that, teams are really important.

21:39But it's trying to construct a team where everybody has the same goal and you're working a bit like a good soccer team or a football team or whatever it is. You know, everyone has to be working for the end result rather than as individuals. Frustration comes in quite a lot where you'll go, okay, great. The artist loves this. Management loves this. The A&R guy loves it. Oh, but the marketing guy says, oh, I'm not sure this is going to work. And then once you put, especially in creative stuff, once there's one element of doubt, then the whole thing can cascade.

22:14Because what that does and everyone involved will listen to that and convince themselves that they're not sure about it either. And that song gets shelved. So you've got to be really sensitive about the messages you send out about the song. The other thing I was going to say is that often the best things I've made are when the artists have gone, I'm not even telling the management I'm here. When you've got a headstrong artist who wants to create, it's like Adele rolling in the deep, you know, she went back to the demo. But I think it was like Rubin or someone like produced the main one.

22:44And then she just sneakily went back to Paul Epworth and said, you know, that demo, can we tart it up? Because I think that's the one. And that's what you hear. Yeah. It's the step at your studio being stepped on for the stomp, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. That's where Epworth did it. But I think you're absolutely right. Leadership as an artist is so, so important because they are the face of it, as it were. And if they're not leading or somebody in that team leading it, it then creates these areas of doubt. Then nothing gets done because it's procrastination.

23:16So now more than ever, I feel that when I come across an artist that is driven and leading something and is taking as much control as they can, I think there's much more chance for success with it. Because, yeah, when you don't have that, it can very easily go into, you know, music by democracy doesn't work. Yeah, it seems like any kind of interference in the process can be damaging, even from the writers themselves. As soon as they start evaluating what they're doing as they're doing it, that's the end really, isn't it?

23:47Yeah. And again, that boils down to that thing of trying to access your gut rather than you're using your head all the time. It's like, does this feel right? And if it feels right, tends to be that it is right, it's trying to keep that channel open. So what are the strategies then? How do you make that stuff happen, not evaluate it too much in the moment, keep people out, avoid getting stuck? Like you're fighting several battles on several fronts. I'm starting to think that sounds like an impossible task. I think one of the things about empowering the artist and enforcing an element of play is like having toys around the room.

24:25That's always good because it is play. It should be play. It shouldn't be like, I'm afraid I work like this, so could you please put that guitar down? I mean, I've had people banging on all kinds of things, but in the energy of that, they are themselves. You've got to try and cultivate them being who they are. As far as keeping the management A&R out, do you say no? Quite a lot of the time. I think you have to get yourself to a position where you can say no, but saying no becomes more and more important the more successful you become.

For me, I feel it's very much about creating a safe environment and having real respect for whoever it is that you're working with, understanding how potentially they may be feeling, how it's not always the loud ones that have got the best ideas, and then how can I create this space where there's a potential for real creativity to flourish?

25:15Then you go, okay, well, we've got that. Then comes the next job of, okay, well, how do I manage the manager, or how do I manage the sort of situations afterwards? And that's something that we talk quite a lot about with students because it is really important to navigate that side of it, getting splits sorted out, how the language that you use when you're communicating about it being positive, trying to avoid those areas of doubt creeping in. But you have to, to a degree, separate those things out. So I think it's like, create that environment, be in that creative mode, and then you go, okay, well, done that, I've got to now be in more, let's call it business mode.

25:53Yeah. Do you find sometimes that the people you collaborate with make you better? Like there's just something about the way they work that spares you on and elevates what you do? Unfortunately, because I'm not that good, most of the time that happens. But interestingly, the more I do it, and the older I become, the more I'm learning. And that sounds a bit weird because you'd think, you know, we've been doing it for a lifetime, but actually I'm really finding that I'm learning more things from different people because I'm more open, I think, to that process, to, oh, wow, I didn't expect you to do it like that.

26:27And, oh, that's interesting. So I think it's, again, it's a really important part of that, not being too stuck in your way. Suddenly you're learning a whole new skill set.

Learning from different creative processes

26:38I mean, to give an example, a few years back, I was doing a record with Tears for Fears. Oh, the Tip and Point great album. And those guys, they were my heroes when I was growing up. So it's quite a weird position to be in as sort of producer in a room with your kind of childhood heroes, as it were, and then trying to tell them what to do because they're not talking to each other and there's a whole heap of stuff going on. And then the way that Roland in particular works was very much, I want to hear the music, I want to hear the track, I want to feel that, and then I'm going to put something on.

27:11And I'm like, well, when are we writing a song and then we can do production like that? Because no, no, no, no, no, no. And then we'd argue about it. Finally, after about a few days, he was still tickering with the hi-hat thing. Oh, my God, are we going to write a song or are we just going to do the hi-hat all day? And he goes, all right, all right. Finally he goes, all right, give me a mic. So we give him a mic like that and he just goes, turn it on. And then he just started to like sing down the mic and it was all kind of phonetic. It was all like sounds and he was singing like that.

27:42All right, play again. And he was then extra words were coming out and I was like, oh, wow. And then again, right. And a few more words and he was scribbling them down and he goes, all right, I'll have it by tomorrow. And he went home and I kid you not, he came back the next day, had the whole lyric down. He just wrote in a different way. It was all sort of subconscious. It was phonetic. It was sounds. That was what was driving. It was the track that was driving his emotion. And it was something for me completely new in a process, but oh my God, did it teach me so much.

28:13And then I remember saying to him, so is this how you always do it? And he's looked at me like I'm a moron. Yeah. How else do you do it? And I'm like, well, you know, I kind of like maybe sometimes think of a title and then start. And again, he's like, well, that's why you write shit songs.

28:30And he goes, well, then that's how I do it. And I said, well, did you do that in all? And he was like, you know, how did you do shout? And he goes, well, it just goes, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, doesn't it? And I go, yeah. And he goes, well, what else do you say? Shout, shout, let it all out. It's not rocket science. Amazing. So that is where I really get excited learning, like something different, a different process. That's magic. It's that thing about, first of all, the lack of fear to go, give me the mic. I'm just going to sing over it.

29:00And then that kind of allowing yourself to believe in the magic of whatever comes out. I always remember that great Paul Simon thing. He was like, do you think I'd sit down and write bone diggers as a lyric that should go? I mean, what tune was that? Is it you call me out? You know, and he's like, it came out of my mouth and it felt so good. It had to be. And often those things that we put into our songs are the things that the audience respond to. Cause we've all got this subconscious magic floating around. And if you can tap into it and put it in your song, people feel like they've heard it before

29:33and felt it before. Anyway, get yourself out of the way so that you can come up with those things. And I guess collaboration is really the key, isn't it? And encountering new people as our writers are doing today, the opportunity opens up. Exactly. To be open to what your co-writers or your other people do. That doesn't mean to say that you're not offering and you're not also showing, you know, you show what you do, what your process is as well, but being open to it. And again, it's the same with the musical styles. If you just have three people in the room who just write pop music, let's say, you're

30:08just going to get probably a fairly average pop song. Whereas if you have two of them write pop, but one of them is into folk or ska music or whatever it might be, suddenly there's a different ingredient in the mix. And then maybe that's where you get something. Oh, this is interesting. This is a bit more unique. This is special. Do you have any other tips for our writers today on how to get a collaboration going in super quick time?

30:35Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, there are some of you who've written professionally. There are some of you have kind of just coming into collaboration. We'll put you in groups, but there's definitely a sense of just all go in the room as human beings trying to communicate on whatever level. And that might mean that some of you have to lean in and help other people, but you will learn stuff and people that might be in the room with someone who does something completely different you can learn from. It is an interesting process of humanity as it is every time you get in the room to write

31:08a song with someone. And what I would say is take the pressure off that you need to have a song completely finished. And I know we're talking about finishing because that is really, really important, but take the pressure off the song, get in there, be creative, try and get to know each other a little bit, but don't overstress the song because songs are weird. Sometimes they arrive and then sometimes they don't arrive. And you can be with the best people in the world that you think, oh, I'm getting on really well at that. And then actually it just hasn't worked out. And then sometimes, whoa, where did that song appear from?

31:40Whoa, we finished this and we've only been doing it for two hours. Take the pressure off the song, but create that environment where everybody's safe and fearless. Are there commonalities between your best collaborators, the people that you've enjoyed working with the most? Do they all do certain types of things that you think are a good idea? Mainly the ones that write them by themselves and I just stand there.

32:03No, I think with, say for instance, artists like Jason Mraz, he is an incredible lyricist and an incredible wordsmith. I really enjoy setting the scene for him, talking to him about the idea, pushing him. Telling stories, trying to create this world that we're going to have for the song. And then it's back off and let him roll. And really important is offer when you need to offer, but stay out of his way. Those types of collaborations I've really, really enjoyed.

32:34And then there are other ones where I feel maybe a little bit of the control freak in me comes in and I'm a bit more, okay, I think this is a great idea. How about we do it like this? And if the artist gets it, then that's also great because I'm kind of, I have that vision and it's a little easier to steer. For me, it's like, I always want to work with people that have got some gold that I can't get a hold of. You know, that's the trick. And it's like for you guys today, it's like, see where the gold is in the room and allow that to just be discovered. It's like David in Sons of Town Hall with me, you know, he is a Harvard English graduate.

33:09He has the most incredible ability to write words and can just, when you sit with him and go, let's write a song about that, you will write the most insane song. The other thing that's interesting, especially when you're recording, I worked with a guy, very successful dude. And he, he has that thing where he walks in the room and you immediately are thinking the next one's got to be really good because he's in the room now. That's good for you. It's good for you to do that, to feel like not intimidated by someone, but like they're there, they love me. They want me to do really well.

33:41I really want to do really well for them. And that's, I think the key between a lot of my successful collaborations. And I know Ben, you've got some ideas about groupings for the day, haven't you? So we'll get to that next, I guess. But in the meantime, if you could show your appreciation for our fantastic guests.

34:02Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.