Episode 319 - Linda Perry

Introduction

0:00Hello there, you're listening to Soda Jerker on songwriting. This is Brian and Simon, and joining us for episode 319 is a highly esteemed American singer, songwriter and producer who first came to worldwide prominence in the early 90s as frontwoman of four non-blondes.

0:33She later became one of the most sought-after writing and producing talents in pop music, penning a string of colossal hits for the likes of Christina Aguilera, Pink and Gwen Stefani in the early 2000s, and going on to collaborate with a stellar cast of artists, including Dolly Parton, Alicia Keys, Weezer, Celine Dion, Bono, Courtney Love and Ringo Starr. She was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame in 2015, and was recently the richly deserving recipient of the International Songwriter Award at the 2026 Ivers. Her excellent new

1:03solo album Let It Die Here, her first in over 25 years, is out now, and accompanied by a candid feature-length documentary of the same name, directed by Don Hardy. It offers an intimate look at our guest's creative process, but we also see how she navigates some seismic life events that took place during the filming, not least the death of her mother, which ultimately inspired the writing of the new record. We are honoured to welcome the great Linda Perry to the show. Linda was born in Springfield, Massachusetts, to a Brazilian mother and Portuguese father, and raised on the West Coast in San Diego. By her mid-teens, she was writing songs and playing

1:37in various high school bands, but it was upon moving to San Francisco when she was 21 that Linda found her voice in more ways than one. She performed frequently around the Bay Area, where she was eventually spotted and invited to join the fledgling four non-blondes by bassist Krista Hill House. Fueled by Linda's impassioned vocals and songwriting, the band's reputation grew steadily, word of mouth spread, and the label bidding war culminated in their signing to Interscope. The band's 1992 debut, Bigger, Better, Faster, More, proved a platinum seller, spending a year on

2:08the Billboard 200, and yielding the 1993 global smash hit What's Up, which topped the charts in 10 countries. Despite such phenomenal success, four non-blondes split in early 1995 during the recording of their second album, which was ultimately shelved. The following year, Linda released her acclaimed solo debut, In Flight, co-produced with Bill Bertrell, who became a mentor to Linda in the studio. She then offered her services to various up-and-coming San Francisco bands in order to hone her production and engineering skills. Upon relocating to LA, she recorded her second solo LP,

2:401999's After Hours. Linda's triumphant second phase as a writer and producer for Hire took off almost by accident, when in 2001 she wrote Get the Party Started. The song started life as a fun studio experiment, but In the Hands of Pink was transformed into a bona fide pop anthem. Shortly afterwards, our guest cemented her newfound hitmaker status with the one-two punch of Beautiful for Christina Aguilera and What You're Waiting For for Gwen Stefani. During the same period, she founded Custard Records, and one of its first signings was a promising young Englishman

3:12by the name of James Blunt. In 2017, with Kerry Brown, she co-founded another label, We Are Here. In recent years, Linda's diversified into film scoring, composing music for movies such as Lucky Us Girl Alive and To Leslie, and the documentaries Citizen Pen, also directed by Don Hardy and Kid 90, as well as collaborating with Dolly Parton on the songs for the 2018 movie Dumplin'. Last year, she reunited with her old four non-blondes bandmates for some live dates, for which she co-wrote virtually a whole set's worth of brand new songs, and an album is also in the

3:43pipeline. If you've not done so already, follow Soda Jerker on songwriting, and leave a nice review and rating wherever you get your pods, and take some time to sift through our archive of well over 300 interviews with quality songwriters like Linda. You can support this indie ad-free show at sodajerker.com slash donate. Finally, our thanks to Ashley for his help setting up this chat. Right, please enjoy this conversation with the great Linda Perry. The

4:36Send a spider to the fly. I said, save me, set me free.

4:46Let it die here, rest in peace.

The New Album and Documentary

4:52First things first, we should say congratulations on the Ivor novella. That's amazing news, isn't it? Thank you. You know, it's nice to get those little benchmark validation points. You know, if you looked around my studio in my place, I don't have one award in here. I have no gold records. I don't put worth on that. I've given them away. I've given them to charities. But these kind of awards for the songwriting, you know, the Songwriting Hall of Fame, these ones mean a little bit more to me.

5:24Not that the other ones don't mean anything. But, you know, it's recognizing that I'm a fairly decent songwriter. So it does make me feel good that I'm on the right path, you know. I mean, it's all happening right now, isn't it? The Ivor and the Let It Die Here documentary and the new album arriving almost in tandem with that. And presumably you have multiple other projects on the go as well at the moment. Yeah. I love the music business. I love making music. I love collaborating.

5:54I loved my run as a producer and a songwriter and working on people's careers, helping in that area. But when the documentary showed up, it was not intentional. It just kind of happened. And especially because what type of documentary it is, it's not a fluff piece about how awesome I am. You know, it's very raw, very embarrassing. It's very honest. And people are really responding to that because I think people are relating to a lot of what's going on with me in the film.

6:32The documentary inspired the album. So it's kind of all happening in a weird aligning of the stars, you know, voodoo-ish, you know, the universe is coming together for me. People are just being so kind to me too, like really generous with their words and, you know, emotion and very genuine. So it feels really great. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. We really enjoyed the film. We got a chance to see it this last week. Like, yeah, it is obviously incredibly honest, but very revealing about the writing process as well.

7:07We thought it really demystifies how a song happens.

Songwriting Process and Flow State

7:10Yeah. Well, we all have our process. Everybody has a different way. I've never been the type of writer that premeditates a song. Like, I don't know how to do that. I'm actually in awe when people can go, okay, we're going to write a song about, and it's going to be this type of song, and it's going to be this tempo, and it's going to be this emotion. I'm like going, wow. Like, they know exactly what they're going to do, where I have no idea.

7:43I don't know if I'm writing a country song or some kind of Irish pub song. I don't know, like, it all just kind of shows up together, the melody, the chords, the lyrics will stumble out of my mouth, and all of a sudden form, an arrangement shows up. And the process is so amazing, but again, not premeditated, but intentional. That's the interesting part of it. It's like this randomness of the way I write is very intentional.

8:19That's what makes me believe this is beyond me, because the intention behind it and how specific and detailed it is, it's very strange, you know, but I know a lot of people that write like that, you know, which is incredible. But yeah, so that's my process. And then if we're dicking around and writing music in the studio, I'm going to work on who you guys are as people. So I'm going to do some digging. I'm going to figure you out, because I like going into the core of things.

8:49I'm not a surface writer. I like to get in there and figure out what's wrong with you guys, how to help you bring it out. And then all of a sudden we have a song. It's more therapeutic. And I honestly could care less where the song goes after that, the transformation of the artist. When we have that experience, that's it. That's my hit right there. I did it. I got it. I got what I needed. Early on in the doc, we see you on an acoustic, you know, literally sort of starting with nothing and trying to just follow your instincts and just allow the song to emerge.

9:25And in fact, you stopped dead at one point when you realize you're thinking about the chord changes too much. Is this how a new song will typically start for you, trying to achieve almost a sort of flow state? Yeah. I mean, if there's a song to be written, I will write it. If there's no song to be written, I go about and do other things that are important. I'm never without. When people talk to me about what do you do when you get writer's block, and I said, I don't get writer's block.

9:58Writer's block is a thinker's problem. When you're thinking, you get writer's block because you're thinking it out. So the process for me is sometimes I just get a feeling, and I go to the piano or the acoustic, and it just shows up. Chords randomly show up. And then I'll swim around it for a little while, and then I start understanding where it goes. It's like I'm listening to the details in my mind. If I stop and I start hearing myself go, okay, let's go to this chord next, I'm like, I'm done.

10:34I'm out. I'm thinking. I'm out of it. Yeah. I guess writer's block comes when you try to kind of edit what you're doing in the moment, doesn't it? When you try and assess whether what you're doing is any good, and you're trying to avoid that at all costs. Yeah. I don't really think about the outcome. I'm just so in the moment. And I tell all my kids, you know, who I mentor, and, you know, I do workshops, songwriting workshops all the time, and that's my first thing I tell them. Do not edit yourself.

11:04Do not edit while you're writing because you're going to stop something magical because your brain is going to kick in and start going, oh, I can control this. And it's like, that's the worst thing you could possibly do is try to control the creative flow that's about to happen. It's like as if you have this incredible river of creativity flowing down, and the rocks aren't stopping it. The water moves around rocks.

11:36Water doesn't stop. It'll find a way around, right? It'll go over the top. It'll move around. But what happens with the thinking process, it's like you're slowly building a dam, you know? And then once you do that, that mental dam, then you stop the process, stop the flow of the water. Sold my bed, lost my coat, cracked the mirror, an ugly joke. Always knew that I would be different from the others.

12:09Never young, old and hard. Sold my soul, ever bow apart. The crystal winds underneath the trees, gentle like a lover. Blackbird, pick me up. Blackbird, get me high. Blackbird, pick me up. Blackbird, get me high.

12:32Blackbird, pick me up. Blackbird, get me high.

Evolving and Collaborating with Artists

12:38Blackbird, pick me high.

Evolving and Collaborating with Artists

12:39Your intuition in terms of your own ability to listen to your subconscious, I guess, and to be vulnerable and to find that vulnerability in others, that's a real skill, isn't it? Do you think you can get better at that as you go? Like, have you really fine-tuned that ability, or did you just always have that? Oh, no. I've definitely gotten better because my ego gets out of the way now. So, you know, when I was a kid, I was just full of rage, full of ego, full of defense because I was angry.

13:09I had a lot of damage, you know, a lot of trauma. And you just learn how to learn how to be a survivor and put your dukes up and, like, punch your way out of every situation and think that's the answer. And, you know, in my 30s, I discovered I need to just chill out, man, relax. And then when I started writing with other people and became, you know, Linda Perry, the songwriter, producer, that really changed a lot because I got patience. And I learned to really follow my intuition more.

13:43It became less about me and more about the music and the artist. And I tell my child, don't ever think that you're ever going to perfect something because you're not. You can always get better. You know, sometimes she gets all cocky and says, oh, I know how to play piano. I'm like, no. You know the basics of piano. But you can definitely improve and evolve. I tell that to my kids that I work with.

14:14Like, I come in my studio and I'm always trying to figure out how to get better drum sound, going, you know what, if I just move this, tune that, and back this up, I'll get it. So I don't think I've ever recorded the same drum sound, you know. It's always looking for improvement. And I do. It gets better. My drum sounds like today are way better than they were 10 years ago because I don't ever think I've mastered anything. So I do believe that we are constantly evolving in whatever it is our craft is.

14:48There's always somewhere to improve. It could be just simply being a better listener will make me a better songwriter. Sometimes it's not even about figuring out better chords. I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about sometimes as small as being a better listener can make you a better writer. The scene in the film where you're writing with Kate Hudson was quite revealing, we thought, about how you work with people. You know, she seems maybe a little bit nervous and tentative to start with.

15:18And then you start kind of belting out a melody in your full voice. And that really seems to bring her out of his shell and make her less self-conscious. It's like a barrier comes down all of a sudden. Yeah, that's a great scene, but that would be every scene with me in the studio with artists because people are reluctant. You get shy, you know, and also because what happens with me, and I think this is where that timid emotion comes from, is because I am ad-libbing. And I look at them and I'm like, well, what words do you want me to sing?

15:50We don't have words because we don't have a song. We're going to find the song. We're going to find the words together, you know, at the same time. And it's always a mindfuck to them because they're like going, but I need to sing words. I'm like, no, the words are in you right now. And I'll say, we had an hour conversation. Did you plan that conversation? No, I didn't plan it. Every single word that came out of my mouth was just me ad-libbing and communicating with you.

16:21That's the same thing that will happen in song. You're just having a conversation, but you're singing it. So it does take a moment for the artist to get comfortable because I'm looking for vulnerability. Without vulnerability, I do not believe that you can evolve. Without vulnerability, I don't think it's possible to rise to the next level. If we don't know how to be vulnerable, there's no way we're going to be able to elevate because we're thinking too much about defense and retaliation and what kind of comeback I'll come in with.

17:00You know what I mean? It's like we just got to operate from a different point of view right now. So in the creative world, we have to be vulnerable because I truly feel that is why music is here. It's to show vulnerability, honesty, and get people to feel. You know what I mean? It's like you want to have that raw emotion like where a song feels like it was written for you, about you. You know, I want the same feelings like when I heard Karen Carpenter's voice.

17:32When I heard Karen Carpenter's voice for the first time when I was like five or something like that, it was a tone that I resonated with because it felt like how I felt inside, dark, sad. And that's kind of what I want to do. I want to make people feel something. And that's where the songs have to come from is that vulnerability. Is that one of the ways that you find your best collaborators then? If you can strip back their kind of layers of protection, their self-consciousness, their entourages, whatever it might be.

18:05Yeah. And just find the vulnerability in the person. Is that when you know you're going to be able to connect with someone? Absolutely. I've said no more times than I've said yes. And I'm not looking for my next payday. I don't operate that way. I never have. I just want to look back at my body of work and be proud of it. I mean, I've turned down people while, you know, like we'd be in here talking. And then I can tell right away this person is just coming from the wrong place.

18:38They're looking for a hit. They're looking for this. They're looking for that approval, to be accepted, whatever. And I'll just kindly say, you know what? I really like you as a person. You seem really great. But I don't think there's a connection here. And they'll be like, what do you mean? I mean, I want to work with you. I'm like, I get it. But I don't think I'm good for you. I don't think what I want to do is going to line up with what you want to do. And they kind of get upset, but then appreciate my honesty.

19:08You know, and I'm like, that's what I do. I'm honest. So, you know, I don't think you're looking for honesty. I think you're just looking for a hit.

Working with Dolly Parton

19:16And I just don't do that. It seems like you had a great rapport with Dolly Parton, who pops up in the film as well. I think you co-wrote like six songs in a couple of days with her. Dolly is just a whole other frequency, man.

19:29She has such great work ethic. She just writes. And it comes from her believing that the song is there for her. We just connected because we both came from the same place. The intention was just to have a connection and write something that felt honest. And we both were fast. We got on the same ride and went down that fucking waterfall. What a beautiful, beautiful person.

20:00So authentic, so honest, so real. But she also is extremely mysterious. Dolly is by far one of the greatest artists I've ever worked with because she is one of the nicest. So humble and so kind. And everything you want Dolly Parton to be, she is. Does not disappoint. And I love her. And I respect her deeply. And there's incredible artists out there, mind you, I think are amazing.

20:32But I don't think any of them would mind if I said Dolly Parton is up here. I want to be the girl in the movies The one with the glint in her eyes The girl that seldom loses Beautiful with grace and style Acting out her story Standing in her glory I think you've said in the past that you don't even necessarily need to like the person

21:17To work with them as long as there's that spark True But it must be lovely when you have that spark with someone But you actually really also like them as a person Yeah, that's where the ego comes in You have to remove the ego because If you're looking at everything of like what I want and like in a person That's really going to get in the way It's like you can have that tension with somebody I mean it's been proven fact in rock and roll history That the greatest writers together didn't even get along outside of the studio

21:51You know, I come from that place like I just want to write And so if there's a spark of something I'm going to grab on to that because that feels like it's creative I could care less if I like the person if we're going to be best friends or not If this is the way we're going to connect Then let that be the way we connect and outside of it Who cares?

Finding Her Own Voice Again

22:15Another moment that really struck me in the film is at the very start when you seem Unsure how to write a quote-unquote linda perry song It hadn't occurred to me that you might find that a problem But I guess that you've spent many years now writing songs for other people So there is that possibility of of slightly losing sight of your own identity Yeah, I mean You're being brought in or whatever the universe putting you together with so-and-so And I think once Is okay But then when you go from one to the next to the next to the next

22:48It's like you don't even have time To change your clothes Process what just happened You just go right into the next one And for me, I got so used to be able to dive into somebody else's mess Extract Create Move on And then all of a sudden you're like going I don't even know how to do that to myself I've been hiding behind the producer songwriter

23:18Not wanting to deal with my own extracting of emotions And I figured out a clever way To just keep myself busy With everybody else's emotion And not wanting to process my own I guess we could say something like that possibly Happened So I started feeling a shift in me And I think that's why the documentary showed up My friend Don wanted to film me in the studio

23:51Because he thought I was interesting Now he may have had an idea about making a documentary But I was clueless Until he started telling me I think there's a documentary here So nothing happens to me Unless it's meant to happen It's a weird thing that goes on in my life Things show up when they're meant to show up And when that started happening Life started happening

24:22And the cancer shows up My mom gets sick I'm having a meltdown Just basically on Who the fuck am I in all this You know And then on top of it I get sick My mom gets sick That all happened In a very short period of time Like it only took this long For the documentary to come out But it's been done for two years You know And I don't think that part people realize The beginning of 22 I had a double mastectomy And the end of 22

24:54My mother died And everything in between happened So it was very short It was like a year and a half of filming But randomly Like a week here Two weeks there It was a very short process To give you some perspective So yeah I mean I think that beginning Was me saying Oh my god I don't even know How to write a song for myself What happened And that truly Was the beginning It wasn't edited To be the beginning

25:24It was the beginning of it And then I guess he followed That story

Recording the Title Track

25:30Yeah The documentary Really seems to have Unlocked that Attention back onto Your own You know Experiences And when we heard What lies with you Emerge in the film We wondered whether That was maybe The gateway song To the album almost Yeah So after my mother Passed away I just called up Don And I said Hey I need to go jam I need to be In a rehearsal room And just jam And he's like Okay Do you know what You're gonna do I'm like No But I'm gonna be there

26:00At this time On this day If you wanna come And he's like Of course And He had the film Already edited But I guess He didn't feel He had an ending And Again This was not A plan It was just I just told him What I needed For my soul And then I also told him I'm gonna go To the Salton Sea The Salton Sea Is this Lake That dried up And it's just White It's just like Salt

26:31And it's beautiful And I said I'm gonna go there I'm gonna take My child there And I just wanna Disappear In the vast Emptiness of it And just Have a moment You know And I'm gonna have My friend Heidi Take pictures Of Rhodes and I Out there Because I just think It'll be really beautiful And I told him You're welcome To come to that As well So I call him The night before The rehearsal And he's like

27:01So what are you gonna do? I go I don't know I have a band coming And for some reason I have strings coming And he's like You have strings coming And you don't know What you're doing? I'm like Okay If we're gonna go there I have background singers Coming too And he's like And you have nothing I'm like I have Absolutely nothing But I feel like I'm supposed to have All this there You know And he's like Kind of laughing at me But also concerned You know Like He's thinking What are we filming? You know I said

27:31I don't know But Something's gonna happen So That night Around Two o'clock In the morning I guess I could say That morning I woke up I went to my piano And I wrote This song And I told the band To be there at 10 I told the strings To be there at 11 And I told the background singers To be there at 12 I get there at 930 And Don and everybody's there And I said I think I have a song

28:01And he's like Great And I'm still writing The lyrics out The band The band shows up The band shows up at 10 I teach them the song Strings show up at 11 And I immediately heard A string part As soon as I saw them I heard the part I teach it to them At 12 The BVs show up And I'm still kind of Finessing lyrics I write down what I have And teach them what to do Then we start playing the song

28:31And that happened In like Less than four hours And so it was just edited Exactly the way It happened And then We went to Salt and Sea All of a sudden I'm just like Kind of angry About the wind And the situation And the cameras Are around me And I Just ripped off my t-shirt And everybody was like Holy shit You know Did she just do that So that whole ending I've never seen

29:03Anything like it And oh my god It's me You know It's like That part hits you But as a creative artist I'm watching this whole ending With the rehearsal Of the song And the Salt and Sea footage And the way It was all edited And I was just like Oh my god That's the most powerful Thing I've ever seen It truly is One of the most powerful Moments I've ever seen In a documentary And I love documentaries And Don was waiting For me to make A lot of changes And I gave him a hug

29:33And I said You made a really Beautiful film I understand now What you are doing And I was able To really understand This documentary Is not about me What made me different Was that Someone filmed it And fucking put it In a documentary For other people to see Everybody else Those moments Happened quietly With no one around And so I was like You know what I'm just gonna approve it I saw heaven

30:04Falling from her eyes Like a long last look Before you say goodbye We can't win What we can't lose And I'll never know What lies with you Now you're gone And there's no one Left to fight

Themes of Hope and Defiance

30:26Something I love About Let It Die Here The album Is that although You're tackling These significant Life events And a lot of Complicated feelings And emotions It's still ultimately An uplift and listen Isn't it You know There's a kind of Hopefulness And a spiritedness To the whole thing Like a certain Defiance Yeah I mean Thank you For saying that Again Was not intentional It just kind of Came out that way You know Having the album

30:57Start with Balboa Park Which is very whimsical And very like Innocent Because I was innocent At one point I did Have a broken voice Like that It was broken It was innocent It was fucked up You know And I love starting With that song Because it kind of Started it all Yeah And then it goes into Like Stupid Yellow Kite Which is It's about You know My mom About her Tugging on me Always I felt like

31:27The kite And she's like Tugging on me And throwing me Into the storms Getting me tangled up And it's just like Let me go Why do you have To pull on me Why are you Trying to control Me so much Just fucking Let me go Woman Let me have My own journey And stop trying To manipulate it And control it To push me In the river It's like I don't feel alive Unless you're Beating on me Pushing me Fucking in the river You know Drowning me Then it gets to like Now I'm starting To be defiant

31:59Is that all you got Is me standing up And going Okay Hit me Give it all Is that all you got You know I'm not gonna Fucking go down You're not taking me Down anymore Woman And then she dies Then Let It Die Here Shows up So it's all Kind of a story And that song Kind of cracked me up Because it's like To the T Who my mom is It's so funny And descriptive But it's put in this Kind of like You know So you're right I didn't think about it

32:30That way But there is a lightness About The darkness And I guess In hindsight That's my style I do Talk about Heavy things With a little hope And maybe There's a light At the end Of the tunnel I don't know Dare I even Think or suggest There could be Obviously you're Dealing with Very difficult Things there But you still Show a lot of Empathy and Compassion Towards your mom Even though you Talk about That difficult Relationship

33:01Like for example I am daughter We wondered If that bossa feel Was kind of a nod To her Brazilian roots

Tributes to Her Mother

33:07Yes It was again Unintentional When I first Wrote that song Wrote it on Piano And it sounded More like a Rock opera And then when I brought it Into the band I was like You know I'd like to Try this In a Bossa Nova And because The lyrical content Was about Like now That you've Passed on Go drink Your champagne And have your Caviar And your private Jet My mom Was very Superficial Like I took

33:38Care of her I bought her House Bought her cars Gave her money I was giving her An extravagant Lifestyle But it was At a risk So I just Wanted to Write this song That kind of Paid tribute To her It showed up In this way And I was like Okay Well I hope now That she Is passed on She can look Down And she can See me For who I Really am That I'm Actually

34:08Really powerful That I Am talented That I Am caring And loving And that I Really did Take care Of her And hopefully She can Look at me Now and See that So that's Kind of What that Song was Trying to Say Sometimes I Don't put The words Together The best Way Because I'm Always in Emotion But I Think if I were More poetic I could Say things Better Like I'm In awe Brandi Carlyle The way She writes She's so My god What a Beautiful Lyricist She's a Poet

34:40I'm more Like Neil Young A little Sloppy You know I have My own Poetry And sometimes It hits On point And sometimes It's like Oh I could See how I could Have done That better But it's Kind of Your style Linda A little Raw A little Loose Leave it Up to The imagination To figure Out what's Going on In your Brain Lead me Down The shallow Reap Hold my Head above The water Help me Mourn What I Have Lost

35:10For I Am A daughter Oh How I Hope She Can See Me Yeah So with The lyrics Are you Kind of Ad-libbing Really Until something Solid comes Into focus It does Come out It's there And then What happens Is like I'll just Play it Over and Over And then The more I play it The structure Takes better Shape

35:40The melody Takes a better Shape I keep Pushing For Can I have A better Melody I ask For a better Melody You know If I feel Like the melody Isn't 100% There Once I ask For the better Melody The melody Shows up I record Everything And I'm just In it I'm just Closing my Eyes And I just Continue I have no Idea half The time What I'm Doing Then I'll Listen back If it's On my iPhone Or if I Was in The studio And then

36:10I start Writing all The lyrics That I Said And then I'll fill In the Holes That's how I write I never Touch A pen To paper Until I'm Done Finding All The words That's When I'll go All right Let me Fill in What I Think I Was trying To say Here There's No Chord Written Down There's No Suggestion Of a Song What So It's Like Regurgitated It's Like I Vomited Something Out And

36:41There It Is I Not Just There's A Recurring Motif Of Black Birds As Well Like In Val Park And On Feathers In A Storm As Well Was That A Conscious Thing Or Is That Just How Those Lyrics Came Out Those Just Came Out That Way But I Do Have A Thing About Birds Maybe A Bird Is My Guardian My Spiritual Animal I Don't Know But I'm Okay With Repeating Myself Because It Is A Reoccurring Theme For Me

37:12And I Didn't Hear It Until I Heard The Whole Album And I Was Like Oh Okay There It Is Again I Guess If I Was Thinking Too Much I Wouldn't Be Okay With It I Would Try To Find Something More Poetic But

37:29Super Interesting When I Wrote What's Up Was The Second Verse Is And I Try Oh My God Do I Try Try All The Time In This Institution I Pray Oh My God Do I Pray And I Pray Every Single Day The Producer Just Kept Trying To Change That And I Did At The Time Change It And Then I Realized Why Why Am I Changing It I Asked Him Why Are You Changing Well It Sounds Repetitive Because It Is That's The Emotion It's The Motion Of Angst

38:00Someone Desperate It's A rebel Statement Someone Who's Really Desperately Looking For A Way Out Of This So You Know The Story Is Everybody Knows Re-recorded The Song Said Fuck You I'm Going Back To Recording This Song The Way It Should Be Recorded And Blah Blah Blah It's In The Film I Just Try Not To Come At Music That Way It's Like You Don't Know What I'm Talking About How Dare You Make Me Change Something That You Have No Fucking Idea So I Just Kind Of Point That

38:31Back At Myself So If I Ever Think About Oh You're Repeating I Just Go Who Cares Sometimes I Purposely Try To Put A Bridge In Or Do Something

38:48Not That It's My Favorite Song Because I Don't Want To Say That It's My Favorite Song But I Find It To Be A Very Powerful Song You Know And It's So Simple So Hit Me Mother Is That All You Got Hit Me Mother Is That All You Got Hit Me Mother Is

39:18Got Is That All You Got I Just Want To Walk In Kindness You Know Like I Do You Know I Struggled In The Past I Wasn't Always Like That Very Confused And Very Hurt And Abused Traumatic Life You Know And So You're Gonna Have Faults And Failures But

39:48As Long As I Know I'm Not Perfect And As Long As I Know That I Need To Grow And Evolve That's All I Can Do I Would Never Sit In My Space And Go I Have Nothing Else To Learn Thank God I Have Been Gifted That Way Of Thinking Just To Keep Evolving To Be The Best That I Can And As Long As I Have That I Can Look At Past

40:19Things And Just Find Forgiveness It's

Reclaiming Beautiful

40:22Lovely To Hear You Reclaim Beautiful On The New Album As Well That's Such A Familiar Song At This Point But It Just Works So Well Alongside The Other Songs Doesn't It And Sits With The The The Record Yeah It Does Right You Know Somebody Suggested That I Do That But Not For The Record They Suggested That I Actually Just Record That We Release It Separately Of The Record Just As A Re-Introduction Remember Linda Was A Songwriter And An Artist At One Point You Know

40:52I Loved The Version I Did With Christina So I Don't Want To Sway Too Much From That It's The Same Tempo Same Key Same Arrangement And I Laid Down The Piano My Drummer Came In To Record On Something Else I Said Hey Ben Can You Just Quickly

41:15Acoustic Mellotron Moog And Then My Guitar Player Came In To Record On That Other Same Song And I'm Like Hey Nick Can You Play A Guitar Part On This I Feel Like It Need Something He Did They Left And Then After I Was Done With The Other Song That I Was Recording I Just Laid A Vocal On There Put Some BVs And I'm Like This Sounds Pretty Good Sent It To The Team And Then As They Were Digesting It I Placed It Because There Was A Gap To Me There Was Something Missing Between

41:45Suitcase And Feathers There Was An Emotional Flip That Needed To Happen And I Didn't Know What To Do There So I Put It There And I Was Going Yeah It's A Different Perspective Though Now Instead Of

42:05Was You Know All About All Of Us This Became More About How My Mom Her Harsh Words Fucking Brought Me Down And Then All Of A Sudden I Could Turn It Around And It Still Applied To You And We Because We All Get Taken Down By Our Parents In Some Way I Think A Lot Of People Can Relate To That So It Really Made A Nice Transition From Suitcase To Feathers And Then I Told The Team I'm Like I'm Putting It On The Album It

42:36Works On The Album And They Were Like Great Because They Didn't Think I Would Do That You Know I'm Like Oh Yeah No It's Going On The Album So It Worked Out And I Love The Way I Did It Because It Sounds Like I Did My Own Song Again I Wasn't Trying To Make It Obscure You Know How People Do That I'm Like No In Fact If I Was Doing This Version For Christina My Drum Sounds Are Better Now Than They Were Then So Christina Would Have Sing On This Version You Know What I Mean If I Had

43:06That Engineering Skills And Had My Ears Tuned In Like That So I Just Wanted To Be Respectful To The Song That I Wrote So I Wasn't Going To Change It Much Christina Did An Amazing Job It's A Classic Forever It'll Be An Iconic Song Because Of Her But I Wasn't Looking For Iconic I Was Looking For Emotion Yeah I Think You Said You Cried When You Wrote That Song As Well I Did I Was Freaked Out And That's Kind Of Been A Motif In Some

43:43If You Are Looking To Measure Whether Your Intuition Is Correct If It Brings You To Tears It's Probably Pretty Good I Guess Well It Brought Me To Tears Because I Didn't Believe What I Was Writing So It Was Like I Can't Sing A Song That Says I Am Beautiful Like I Do Not Think That I Would Never Think That And Then It Took Me A Moment And I Was Like I Cried About It Because I Knew I Had To Finish It I Didn't Understand It Probably Is What Happened But Not Until Christina Did It Did I Go Oh

44:14Okay Now I Understand What The Song Is About It's About Not Feeling That Way And How People Are The Reason Why You Don't Feel That Way You Know And So You Have To Step Up And Wait A Minute

44:34Mean And They're Intentionally Being Mean To Make Them Feel Better But It Doesn't Change The Outcome It Actually Makes Their Life Worse Because Then They're Dealing With Having That Inside Them That Meanness Nothing Good Is Going To Happen From That They Always Go Down Somewhere Along The Line It Might Take A Minute But Those People Who Are Just Rotten Mean People They Eventually Go Down Those Shitheads Well

45:07Linda It's Been Lovely Chatting With You Thanks So Much For Telling Us About The Record We've Absolutely Loved It And The Film Thank You I Really Appreciate It Because Honestly I've Been Like Going How Is Anybody Going To Get The Scope Of It And I'm Hoping Each Song Individually Stands On Its Own If You Don't Want To Listen To The Whole Album At Least If You Listen To A Couple You're Like Oh I Like That I Like That You Know But I Know It's A lot To Take In So I Really Appreciate You Taking The Time To Listen To It It Means A Lot And I Hope People Get

45:38It And Understand The Intention And The Motion Behind It

45:55We Are Beautiful In Every Single Way Words Can't Bring Us Down Oh No No So Don't You Bring Me Down Today Don't You Bring Me Down Don't Bring Me Down Today

46:25That was

Post-Interview Discussion

46:42Linda Perry talking to us about her new record Let It Die Here and the accompanying documentary Such an interesting person isn't she Oh yeah And impressive how she's managed to make such beautiful art out of what has been a really traumatic few years for her yeah she's indomitable really isn't she and her ability to respond to the things that happen is just a great lesson isn't it especially for artists who are always trying to be in control and shape their narratives so to speak yeah she's prepared to let the cards fall where they may isn't she and she

47:13sees the opportunity in difficult situations yeah and so much good advice in there for songwriters wasn't there well she's highly attuned to the nuances of collaboration isn't she such an experienced collaborator and she knows how to bring the best out of people she said she could even find out what's wrong with us many have tried and failed but yeah she's also honest about it isn't she and able to call it when it's it's obvious that a particular collaboration just isn't going to work yeah but she's mature enough to know that people who don't get along

47:43personally can still get along creatively exactly yeah and I love that she's found how to write for herself again with this record you know it's her first in a very long time and the result is great isn't it's such a cohesive complete statement oh yeah it really tells a story and it balances light and dark I love it yeah so many strong songs too you know one we didn't mention was Sunday Best oh yeah where she sounds like she's channeling vintage Neil Diamond you know with the delivery and the whole arrangement of

48:14the song it really sort of evokes his sense of drama yeah and one we did touch on was Feathers in a Storm which we think is probably the best song Stevie Nicks never wrote yeah I don't know if those are like deliberate influences but either way those are two real high points on the record and they really drive home that kind of uplifting quality that we talked about yeah and those moments sit alongside those lovely instrumental interludes as well where she's drawing on her experience as a composer for film and she's creating some amazing

48:45kind of atmospherics there yeah they really add something to the whole flow of the record those they do so thanks to Linda for her time let it die here the album is out now and look out for the film too cheers to Ashley for coordinating and we'll be back with you soon take care bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye Thank you.