Episode 315 - Mumford & Sons

Band history and introductions

0:00Welcome, everyone, to Soda Jerker on Songwriting, episode 315. Hope you're all well. It's Simon and Brian here, and joining us today are two members of a Grammy and Ivor Novella-winning English band, whose meteoric rise in the late 2000s and early 2010s saw them go from West

0:34London new folk combo to global arena-straddling behemoth in just a few short years. They recently dropped Prizefighter, their sixth studio album and their fourth to top the UK charts, a mere 11 months after their last LP, Rushmere. It was co-produced with long-time pal The National's Aaron Destner and mostly recorded at his Long Pond studio in upstate New York, and boasts a stellar cast of guest stars, including Hosier, Gracie Abrams, Justin Vernon, Gigi Perez and Chris Stapleton. We're delighted to welcome Mumford & Sons Marcus Mumford and Ben Lovett to the show.

1:07Mumford & Sons formed in London in 2007, although frontman Marcus and keyboardist Ben actually met at school in Wimbledon when they were eight years old and started playing music together around the age of 12. They met banjo player Winston Marshall and bassist Ted Duane in their late teens, and all four were part of a loose collective of musicians, which also included the legs of Noah and the Whale and Laura Marling, and often assembled in the basement club Bosun's Locket on the King's Road in Chelsea. The foursome began playing and writing songs together, and gradually coalesced into an entity of their own. Owing in part to their tireless gigging schedule, they quickly built

1:40a strong following, and eventually won a deal with Island Records in the summer of 2009. Long-playing debut Sigh No More, released the following autumn and produced by Marcus Dravs, yielded hits like Little Lion Man and The Cave, won the Brit for Album of the Year, and eventually went multi-platinum. The Grammy-winning follow-up, 2012's Babel, which spawned the mega-hit I Will Wait, topped the UK and US album shorts, as did 2015's James Ford produced Wilder Mind, which also marked their first collaboration with the aforementioned Mr. Dessner.

2:102018's Delta, recorded at the church with Paul Epworth, not to them another US No. 1, but seven years would elapse until they unveiled their next studio effort, Rushmere, which was their first outing as a three-piece following Winston's departure in the summer of 2021. If you've just discovered Soda Jerker on songwriting, be sure to follow, rate and review our show on your podcast platform of choice, and check out our archive of well over 300 songwriter interviews. You can also support the show at sodajerker.com slash donate. One last thing, huge thanks to Flossie for her help setting up the interview.

2:42Right, without further ado, here's our conversation with Marcus and Ben of Mumford & Sons. You think we're living under different skies I think maybe you forgot that we belong in each other's eyes I'm in the desert and the earth shakes Can we undo the folded lies that mean love's left this place How do we lose our way

3:14Welcome to the podcast, glad to have you here Thanks for having us, what a pleasure

Recording Prizefighter with Aaron Dessner

3:28So Prizefighter follows Rushmere by less than a year You guys must be in some kind of perpetual flow state It's a jerky flow, if that's the case Punctuated by shows, you know, we did I think we did the biggest tour we've ever done Putting Rushmere out And then we rolled straight into Talking Back And playing Prizefighter We went back to an old school way of doing things Because we had the songs written We started just playing them live

3:59On their Rushmere tour Which was a bit of a leap of faith For our audience, I think But it kind of worked out You know, I think now Some of our audience are recognizing The songs they heard in the shows And connecting with those ones particularly Which is like what we did on The first two records And then we stopped doing it When YouTube became like a real thing People were filming shows Which they didn't do right at the beginning Of the band's life Anyway, so we've just been touring A bunch And then we rolled straight from touring Into Prizefighter

4:29Which felt good You know, we wanted to release it While we were warm At least Yeah, yeah We spoke to The Edge from U2 last year And he said he's found that the best time To make a record Is straight after he's just finished one They're perpetually making records though To be fair They take like five years to record And they record the whole time So There's never the wrong time to make a record In The Edge's mind I imagine Legend Yeah And I think you were at Electric Lady Then finishing Rushmere Yeah, when you connected with Aaron Destner

4:59Yeah, that's right We went in to do some final overdubs Because we made Rushmere quite quickly And in like little chunks But a lot of the live tracking Was done in Savannah And we didn't have time Whilst we were there To get all the overdubs done So whilst we were in the mix In New York with Tom Elmhurst Who we loved to death We went and added some VVs And some guitars I think And we were just in there Doing like a day or two And so Rushmere was in the process

5:30Of being mixed You know, ten minute walk away We were in Electric Lady Doing some overdubs So we weren't too much in Tom's hair And then whilst we were there I think Mark's got a text from Aaron Saying you're in the building I hear And so I kind of strop in and say Hi, upstairs with Gracie Abrams So those guys just popped into the studio It was really nice Just saying hi to old friends And then we started playing some music Which is part of our language Our love language And then after we had played a bit of Rushmere

6:03Aaron was like I'd love to play you guys a couple of things Because I've been, you know Collecting song ideas He's got like an amazing library Of bits and pieces That he collects all the time And he's like There's actually something I've really got in mind You know, should this moment have transpired So we sat and listened And we heard The beginning of The idea for the banjo song And we heard The beginning of the song Prizefighter Which was something that he did With Justin Vernon They're two very different songs obviously But immediately brought into focus

6:34That we were not done Writing songs yet This wasn't a moment Of putting the pen down And going out on tour For another couple of years This was like I think within 24 hours We're having serious conversations About working together And doing something with those songs So yeah I mean amazing How these things happen Really in life I love that there's still That much spontaneity And happenstance That can kind of lead The creative process And we just go with it You know You have to kind of yield To the flow And just let it happen

7:05I think I heard Marcus Call it a side quest Yeah Yeah it was a side quest That's exactly what it was Yeah It was for fun And like Ben said It came from a social thing You know It was just like seeing friends And that's how we started As a band You know It was just meeting up With friends And then playing music As part of the language Yeah That ancient form Of communication You know We showed him a demo Of a song That we'd written In January 23 In the first week We'd come back together

7:36And actually one From February 23 Which was Stay I think And here was the first one And it was the first idea Of a sketch that I had When we got back together The three of us In Los Angeles In January 23 To start writing And we hadn't finished it And couldn't figure out How to finish it You know It was fairly straightforward Kind of cowboy chords Effectively With some LA guitar sounds On it And an old 2012 string And we couldn't figure out How to finish it And he was just Immediately was like Oh man Well have you just Like tried this and this

8:07And after the New York experience I chased him down In Paris And we did a day In Paris together We started Rubber Band Man And here And then I chased him Down to Baritz Because he was on tour With the National But he had a couple days Off in Baritz So I flew down there And we started Run together Because I had a banjo lick For the first time In my life And then the National Headline in the other stage Of Glastonbury And so We did a day On here And that's where

8:37Like he shows This idea he had For the bridge Which completely Opened up the song And meant that We could finish it And then I drove him To his gig And got him there Just in time I sat in the car And watched the England game And he played And then I got him back Drove him straight off stage And drove him back down here To do another day So we were like Taking these chances While we got them You know He kept saying Like oh If we were at Long Pond This would be quicker And easier And in the meantime He'd send a couple things off To his sort of network Of friends Really That he makes music with Like Rob Moose String arranger

9:08Who we've worked with before He's a friend of ours too We just got to plug back Into this kind of community It's not a scene Because it's so The membrane is so permeable You know It's friends And connections that he has People like Inez Mitchell And Justin Vernon And Rob Moose And this amazing community Of people You know Which is really I think part of our DNA To make this thing social Because it's just mates Playing tunes That's it Well here's my pride And here's my shame Here's the trophy That bears my name

9:39Here's all the mistakes I've made For too long Here's the answers I never gave Here's the calls I should have made Here's the substance That I crave All along And so eventually

Ten days at Long Pond

10:01We got to Long Pond And we had like Here Run Together Banjo Song Prizefighter And Rubber Bam We felt like we had Something to chase down And then we spent 10 days writing together At Long Pond And got basically The rest of them And then we went back And did some little bits Of recording here and there But it was the easiest Process for a record That we've ever had It was just really Straightforward Wow Yeah I was going to say It sounds like you were In great shape By the time you got to Long Pond If you had all that Under your belt Yeah and part of the Feeling that we had Was like Look we're match fit

10:32You know we just Made this record We got the monkey Off our back As a three piece Like making a record Together We've done some shows We're in the middle Of the biggest tour We've ever done Like we feel warmed up And so now's a great time To get in the studio Actually So Edge is right I think And I don't think We want to stop as well I think we just want To keep rolling You know Keep writing And I guess Because no one would Have been expecting you To already be In the studio Making a new record There was just no pressure You could be free To do whatever you wanted For sure Yeah that was definitely

11:02Helping And I think Expectations are Tricky things In the creative process And obviously When you start out As a band You kind of You have zero expectations You know Of yourselves But also the world With no idea Who you are So you can really Create quite freely You can take risks In ways that I think Maybe get harder And harder The more that people Have an expectation Of your sound There's a lot About Rushmere That I think Is such an important Part of the Canon of the music That we've made And it is What it set out to be And then with that

11:33Out there I think we had This ability To be a little bit More light And exploratory The stakes Somehow fell lower Which meant that The music was better I mean it feels Like that to us And in that location You would finish Words in the morning Music in the afternoon Is that how It was divided up?

Lyrical responsibilities and the writing process

11:53Yeah well It was at least Like the beginnings Of lyrical ideas Because lyrics Are always the thing That hold a record up In our experience You know We'll have like A musical idea We're all excited about Stoked on And then I'll like Often take the responsibility Of trying to finish The words And we're a lyrical band So we can't just Sort of rely on Guitar solos You know All the time I'm allowed one Per record But you know Much as we love Like musical Instrumental breaks

12:23And actually I remember I sent Bono Some early demos This song He was like Don't forget to Let the band rip Here and there You know Like let it be a band Because it's a band And I want some Instrumental breaks Which was great It was really helpful Feedback Because it was all Quite wordy And so I think We put in Extra sections Here and there Musical sections Like bits in Conversation with my son Gangsters and Angels And I begin again And stay Both have these Instrumental breaks And then I think We're important For the balance Of the record The lads had sat me down

13:15At the beginning of the process And said like Giving me this Photoconfidence When it came to the lyrics Saying like Just go and have the thought And feel free to sort of Run riot And effectively gave me The responsibility Of writing the lyrics On this one And I took that Very seriously Because it's A privilege For your oldest mates In music To put that faith in you But B A responsibility And I think you do have To kind of Train for that The way you train for it I think is just Surrounding yourself In words You know And just trying to Swim in ideas And words

13:46Particularly Wherever they come from And there's some practices That I find helpful With that But in the mornings I'd go off to the coffee shop In Hudson Which was like A 20 minute drive So I'd listen to the demos From the day before And think about Were there any gaps Musically or lyrically And then Go and just swim in words For a couple of hours In a coffee shop Which was super Wholesome But also productive And so I'd sit And effectively write poetry In the corner of the shop Drink coffee And then get back By the time we sort of Meet at like 11 Having done some physical exercise

14:17And some mental exercise And sort of feel ready For the day And then we'd all get around Get instruments in our hands And the words would be accessible In a way that didn't Slow the process down Because in the past I think You know We've got excited about music And then kind of Left the words till last And that can be a really Unhelpful way to Write a song I think the better way To write a song Is to start with a thought And an idea Of what you want to say And then build The music around that I mean we've done it Different ways To different I think Levels of effect But this way Worked well for us

14:48Yeah And given how speedy The process was On this album Were you ever concerned At any point That you know You might commit to something That later you'll end up Just not liking very much Great question Yeah I'd be interested to know Your answer on that Mark Because I think Especially Lirically If you had that Doubt It's the most confident I've ever felt In any music we put out It's weird I think part of that Is just relational trust Like I knew the lads Weren't gonna let me Put stuff in That was gonna have A shelf life Lyrically But at the same time

15:18No one was getting In the way of the instinct Creatively Wherever it came from Whether that was Musical or lyrical So it felt like The most connected And instinctive Record we've made You know Because we finished

Confidence and lack of regret

15:31This thing over a year ago And we've had to hear it back A bit recently And I've never felt This peaceful About a body of work That we've made Where I just don't Question any of it I'm sure in years to come I'll listen back to a lyric And be like Oof But I've never had This level of distance From a process Where I've been able To go like Yeah I wouldn't Change a thing I really wouldn't Change a thing I want to add to it Yeah right Makes me want to write more It just makes me go like Oh I think we're getting Better at this Let's keep going You know Yeah I was gonna say

16:01I think that the word Regret's interesting In the form of that question Because it's like Regret is definitely An optional feeling You know You can choose To regret something Or you can choose Not to And I think You're either moving forward Or you're stuck In that singular offering And I think we have More confidence than ever That this is not The only thing That we'll ever do Price Fizer sits Within a body of work In a good way Right It has a family of Contexts and records And of course We believe today Like it stands on Its own two feet

16:32But it's up to us Whether As we say Five, ten, twenty years From now We choose to look back And like Criticize it I don't I think we would Probably just say Let's just go and Better it Or do something else And not look backwards Too much and stew I think that's Generally been Our approach I wouldn't say That's a Price Fizer Specific thing Although I do think We have Done a bit more Post-match analysis On previous records And I think We're learning The more time We do this That that's not That helpful That's not that Productive or creative And was there

17:02A bunch of other stuff That you had to Kind of sift through To find The things that you Were the most confident With or is pretty much Everything that you write Crafted and shaped Until it works I didn't think there was A bunch of stuff That we left on the Cutting room floor As they say But then Gav who works with us Who was in the studio Most of the time Was rolling camera The whole time He had some GoPro set up And he was just videoing And he sent us over Some clips Four or five days ago I was watching this thing back And I was like What is that? And what's that?

17:34Completely erased it From the birthing process Of this album I was like We were doing that For how long? That thing That didn't go anywhere So sometimes Our memory plays Tricks on us I think Because I would have Answered it the same way Like nah We only finish What we finish And you've heard it But actually We've got a couple more That we know And we like And they'll come out At some point It was so creatively curious The time we spent At Lompond Which is why It's so magical And Aaron creates This environment There's like A total lack of cynicism

18:05Which is so helpful Creatively But of course As a band Working with a producer Who's known you For such a long time Like we've been friends For 15 years There's such a level Of trust in the room That if someone Has an idea They're passionate about You're gonna help Them chase it down And see what turns out And there was a lack Of judgment For each other's ideas That was really cool Whilst also Aaron massaging us Into a sort of flow That had a destination So it wasn't just like Let's write a concerto Or a rap album

18:36Or something It was all like With this sense of purpose You know That was really helpful I think But it was very subtle It was like Cool That's fun Should we just finish This other thought That we had As well And I think That's what must have happened So we were all Just so positive All the time We were like Yeah let's finish that thought And I guess Forgot about the other one That wasn't as good Or something But when we run We run together When we're apart We fall apart I will love you now and ever

19:08You're the star And Ben from your side When Marcus comes in with an idea Are there any particular things You're listening out for Or that you'll grab on to I try to like Both in the studio

19:39And the collaborative process But also Just generally speaking Be Not Super cognizant Of how I would answer That question Because I think It's just really How it makes you feel Like do you react To it instinctively Is there something That's in it Because I think Once you start Putting up Scaffolding Of expectation Firstly You're like Missing out On being surprised Which is a really Sad way of being But also I think That I think a lot of people If they hear Iconic songs

20:09Of the last However many years 50, 60 years The best songs You kind of would say That anyone could write it There'll be a sentiment That you feel Incredibly familiar to Or it'll be a Melody that reminds you Of a lullaby This isn't about Grandstanding With any kind of Expertise About Fancy words And Complicated melodies Necessarily Sometimes just like A simple Honest Sentiment Conveyed Whether that's Just a Stanza Or a

20:39Relationship Between a lyric And a melody That completely Changes the way That lyric feels It's in there And that's something That you feel And I think We're empaths The three of us And certainly Aaron as well So you could Kind of like Sometimes I feel You could come in With an idea That you've convinced Yourself of Maybe you've sat On it for a bit Too long And you can Convince all you like But if Your collaborators Aren't feeling it It's not going to Go much further And I think We're quite good At sticking

21:10To our guns On that Like there aren't Songs that we're like Okay well You know We'll put that out Even though we don't Think it's that good But you really love it Do you Okay We're a bit more like Well Yeah I feel a lot of it Maybe we could work on that And get it a bit further And sometimes That isn't something That we do together Sometimes that's just Like feedback On Prizefighter There was even more of that And like Marcus said Then you sort of Can tell in a room That it wasn't quite it And then Leave the room And come back Into the room

21:40But it improved And that day It's like Yeah that's really it Stay was a good example Of that Where That song Was kicking around For a couple of years And it wasn't Quite unlocking And it was Aaron's mirror On that song That was what we needed And it opened up I think a whole new Story In Marcus's head For where that song Could go And what it could be about Where maybe In its original inception It wasn't fully realized And

22:10So Yeah I'm kind of Intentionally being woolly About the answers To that question Because it's not A paint by numbers Ones and twos Operation You know No it's really interesting To hear the The way in which The songs are kind of Curated And the way you Feedback to each other And take feedback From Aaron as well I mean we think The melody writing Is really strong I mean right from the off You've got here You've got Rubber band man Banjo song Run together All of those Have really strong Singable choruses Don't they So There's definitely Some kind of Discussion

22:41And negotiation Going on about What are the best Versions of these songs Before they get Ultimately Realized Yeah There definitely were And I think You know Wherever it comes from In the room If someone has a discomfort With something Just taste wise You've got to hear it out And Try and beat it Most of the time You know Unless someone else Has an even stronger feeling That it's great That is a conversation And because There's so much trust And I think Relational equity We're able to

23:12Be vulnerable With each other On that too And then sometimes It'll take someone else Being like I am sure about this This is going to be great You know We promised We promised We promised I hold you I hold you to it The red earth The firelight The cold storm It's waiting for you The roses The sunrise The sea fall It's waiting for you So will you stay

23:42So will you stay Cause I swear I'll stay So will you stay So many times Aaron said to us Because I think In the past We've been guilty Of overthinking things And Aaron was really helpful Just being like

24:13Guys don't touch that As a fan of your band That's great That's what I want to hear from you Like chill Let's move on You know So many times And lyrically That spirit Was really in the room So I put things down Lyrically That I wouldn't have done Before With this band Because of the confidence I think That the three of them That Ted, Ben and Aaron had In my instincts Particularly those 10 days in Long Pond Because we had longer To write the other lyrics You know Here started Years ago

24:43Stay started Years ago But You know Songs like Conversation of My Son Gangster and Angels And Badlands And Ali Kat I'll Tell You Everything And Clover Were written On the spot Nice With thoughts and ideas That had percolated For a bit You know We're inspired by Various things That I'd been reading For a while But like Most other than Ali Kat Those other ones Were all Written in the room On the day We recorded the song Ali Kat

25:14I wrote in a poetry Workshop in prison Oh wow Of course Yeah But it was One of those Instinctive writing Things we were doing With the lads And we go in And do Like poetry workshops And the poetry workshops Are really like Flow state writing Artist's way Style writing Where it's just like Scribble it down And at the end You can tear it up If you need to You know Or you can take it out With you And I took this one out And it was At the end of a session Where we got deep Into chatting actually

25:44And then we each Just scribbled down A quick poem And Ali Kat Was mine And I said it To the chaplain Actually I was like Am I allowed to Take this out You know Because I actually Do write songs And this could be Quite helpful He was like Yeah So It was first draft And then I showed it To the guys And we built some music Around it basically But yeah Badlands I'll tell you everything Clover Conversation with my son Gangsters and Angels Yeah them Four particularly Were written like On the spot And it was so dope

26:15Because I was able to Like I'd write a line Ben would be at the piano Aaron hold the guitar Ted would be playing bass I'd write a line And then look up To my left To my right And everyone would be like Yep And then I'd just keep going And then inevitably Once the first draft's down I immediately start Criticising it And that's when the lads Were like No just like Live with it Let's live with it If you really want to Change something We can change something But let's just live with it And I'd say Like 90% of the time We didn't go back And change anything Another red leaf drive An endless summer

26:47I was quiet I was alright Till it pulled me under It was a photograph Before we had one another I was in pieces then Till you put me back together So I reach across Remember my heart Remember where I came from Take a hit before I go Is this all there is What do you mean Is this not enough for you Is this all there is

27:21Aside from the dynamic

The physical space of Long Pond

27:25Between the four of you Would you say that The physical space of Long Pond Itself And its location Did that help shape The music that you made there Would you say Yeah for sure I remember visiting The beginning of Long Pond Before it was all built out At the beginning of our friendship 2015 2016 He had this great vision For the space And when we went back For Prizefighter That was the first time Actually going In all of its glory You know Now it's like Hallowed ground Made so by the songs

27:55And the creativity That happened there And I think It's more humble Than perhaps people understand That's what I'd say about it It's a pretty simple space It's also where Aaron lives And this barn That's down by the pond Has a live room in it With a vocal isolation booth All of the work That you're doing Is just in one room So you're in there With the speakers And all the gear And most of the time You're just recording like that People are just like Trying not to cough Whilst you're recording That's the vibe And then

28:26The other part of that Is a little kitchen Where we would sit And mostly eat Soup In our breaks At lunchtime That was a lot of soup It was fucking wholesome It was very nice Very nice time Of years Beating that much soup Sickeningly wholesome Yeah And then Upstairs There are a couple of beds It's not the place Where you go And you press a button And someone comes in Being like Oh would you like this It's like pretty self Sufficient I think that's good Because you're there To kind of work And Disappointing lack of staff

28:56Basically Gerald? Gerald's not here Gerald's not gonna help you Ted was outraged And the way that the room Is set up Is set up For a producer Who also engineers And writes And plays So His style of recording Suits his style of writing And his style of writing Suits his style of recording So His favorite guitar sound At the moment Is just to plug Straight into his desk I think it's an old Siemens desk And he just plugs

29:28Straight into the thing And then the isolation booth Is mostly used for guitar Basically the same guitar As a J45 Which I think is a 60s guitar Sunburst Most of the vocals We did on an SM7 Sat on the sofa Maybe with headphones on But often without And Just not worry too much About Like Hi-fi Sounding Vocals Because you can do A lot of that in post And So Focusing on performances Rather than like The detail So actually

29:58We've listened in isolation When we've been setting up The live show a bit You know You listen to something in solo And you hear all these mistakes And it's kind of cool You're like Good I'm glad Because it lives and breathes You know So the room is in and around And Aaron can play guitar And be on the computer I mean He doesn't need too much Because Bella Blasco Is like the best engineer In the world She's fucking unbelievable And she was with us Pretty much the whole time And the sofa Is behind the desk And there's two wheelie chairs At the desk One for Aaron One for Bella We'd sit on the sofa With Cherry the side

30:29And it was like That's all you need And it's all very flow state You know Like you can go straight from Sit on the sofa Take a back seat And listen as the producer Step in as the engineer Step in as the player Be on hand as a writer So yes The space really mattered In terms of how the record came out And I think the geographical location Matter too Because like You really do feel unplugged From the world So if you're disciplined Around social media And use of the internet And stuff Like you really can be In your own bubble And then really Your only experience Of the songs

31:00Outside of the room Is driving 20 minutes To the closest town So I felt like It was the least Self-aware We've been In a recording process Like if you record In Hollywood Or even in London Or at home Even for us You know You're distracted By family Or city Or comparison Or audience In a way that Just we weren't At Long Pond Which is why It's kind of magical Because it is Such a different location And I think Changing locations Is really helpful

31:31For the creative process too Because you can I think probably Get stuck in a rut If you As a writer Particularly Stay only in the same place I think like Switching things up Geographically Is helpful And Ben

Incorporating vintage synths

31:44You introduced The French connection Synth to the sound As well Didn't you I'm a bit of a Gian nerd As you might have guessed And I had never Even heard of it Nor had I And I have been Becoming increasingly A gian nerd Especially around Vintage synths Since our time With Paul Atworth At the church Because he's really Got some cool stuff Up there In Crouch End But yeah I was doing some Writing with A bunch of friends Sort of an annual Get together That we do Which is about An hour south Of Long Pond And there's this

32:15Amazing writer An artist Performer Called Joe P And he had Found on a blog About Johnny Greenwood All about The French connection And he had Just bought one Before he came To this Writing hang That we were doing And it was Three days And he spent The first day Trying to get it To work And he took The whole thing Apart And fixed it And everyone Was like It's a bit weird That Joe came here Because he's just Sat in a corner With a soldering iron He doesn't seem To really be Participating much And so eventually

32:46When he got it On and then You wire it Into a bunch Of modular synths And it's a weird Chain For what it really Does Which is Sends a signal It has like A little hoop On a string That goes up and down So it has this Kind of like Theremin-esque thing Without sounding Too all over the place Like a theremin can And so I came Full of excitement I got one And they're not Easy to find And brought it in Kind of with the same Like kid-like energy And then we started Putting it on stuff And it was like Well this is a fun

33:17Hybrid Because I think Sonically We like to straddle Certain worlds And What that particular Instrument does Is it gives you Some of the feeling Of a pedal steel Without being Exactly that And it also feels A bit like a synth But you don't feel Like you've heard it before So like From a modern Pop Rock World Which we love Whilst also Playing with some Acoustic instruments It kind of did A little bit of A bridging Job And it's nice

33:48It just sits in the Back there And you know Fun to kind of Build that world Out without Kind of Drowning The songs In it Too much Either Because that's The danger With those Types of gear Is you get More excited About the sound Of the gear Than you are About serving The song So you have To show a little Bit of self Restraint And then when Like Stop recording You can let go As much as you Want And you know The wheels Come off Then Suddenly you're In one of Ted's Psychedelic Funk jams But We do Try and Use these Tools Kind of Like They're Intended To be Used As tools

34:19To help Get the Feeling Of the Song Right We love The title

The meaning behind the title Prizefighter

34:23Of the Record As well It's such A strong Title Isn't it It really Kind of Anchors The whole Thing It seems To us And you Can kind Of envisage Maybe a Character For the Title Or you Can just Maybe be More general With it And associate It with The idea Of Resilience And skill And toughness It just Feels very Apt Thanks Yeah it Was funny It was like We're rubbish With titles You know We fuck Around with Titles Loads It gets Really frustrating For people That work With us Because we'll Call a song

34:54Like 10 Different things Before settling On a name And it's Normally like The day We have An artwork Deadline For a final But a lot Of the time A song Will just Be called Something Because an Engineer Saves it As that And you're Just messing Around It's an Idea And it's Quite a Natural Thing to Do To be Like I want To call The song This And then I'm Going to Write It You know But on This record The identity Of it Very early On was Just Prizefighter You know All the Other Records Have been Labeled Very late In the Process And this One was Labeled Pretty early I think And it Was a bit

35:24Of a Like Throw your Cap Over the Wall And then You've Got to Go and Chase it You know You've Got to Go get It So you've Got to Climb the Wall To get It I think It was Like a Statement Of intent Of it We were Laying down The gauntlet For ourselves And being Like let's Take a Swing At this One You know But the Character In my Head Of the Prizefighter Came On the First Morning When we Were at Electric Lady With With Aaron When he Popped In And he First Played Us This Idea He'd Been Sketching With Justin Vernon I Instantly Got On Legal

35:55Pad Out That Was Just On The Desk In Studio A And Electric Lady And Just Started Scribbling Some Words Down For This Character That I Had In My Head For That Song Straight Away As Soon As I I Had Ben And I Were Like Both Crying Because We Both Felt Like This Is Kind Of Music We Been Wanting To Try And Make And At Times Have Felt Close To But Like This Is So Exciting And For Me It's Unusual To Get That Like Lyrically Inspired Straight Away It

36:35You Know This Like Looking Backwards And Looking Forwards Thing You Know He's Like Heartbroken And In Love He's Ashamed But Also Like Proud It Was Just Really Clear If I Could Then I Would Take A Piece Of The Sky Down With Me But I Should Just

37:07Stay Put Till You're Good Just Say He's Really Not Me Now Is He Justin Has Quite A Distinctive Aesthetic Doesn't He Quite A Signature To His Sound Do You Have To Navigate That In Some Way To Not Lose Sight Of Your Own Voice As Soon As You Put His Voice On Anything It's Like He's So Distinctive And

37:38But Yeah He Had Harmonic Ideas On That That We Never Would Have Come Up With You Know He's Unique As An Artist And And We've Been Fans And Friends For A Long Time And Always Wanted To Find A Way To Work Together Have Watched Him Collaborate With So Many People And Just Been In A Of The Out And Hope That It Would Happen

38:05A Sketch With Aaron And Then We Had To See If He'd Be Up For Singing Anything On It Which Required Us Sending Him The Song And That Was An Insecure Moment For Me Because I Was Like What If Bonny Burr Hates The Song You Know And Then To Ask Him To Approve The Mix Of What He'd Done Because He's You Know He's Proud In The Mix In Way That I'm Stoked On And That We All Wanted And Reflects The DNA Of Where That Song Came From In A Way That Was Beautiful To Us But It's Not A Feature I Love It When Artists See That For Each Other It's Like The Sixties You Know People

38:36Jump On Each Other Records Without The Need For A Feature It's Cool You I Did It With Taylor Swift

38:53We Didn't Feel Like It Was A Feature I Love That You Can Do That That's What The Musical Community To Us Means A lot Of It's About Taste Isn't It Like Ben Was Saying Not Going Too Far With Any One Thing How Do You Know When To Leave Something Alone When Aaron Says So I Was Going To Say Is Aaron You Sort Of Gage For That I Think It Has To Be In Band Dynamics You Have To Have A Tiebreaker And There Has To Be A Certain Amount Of Deference To The Producer I Mean I Think We Wanted The

39:23Deference Because We Believe In Him Creatively So Much But Really Anyone Who Is Wearing That Hat In That Moment When You At The Point Of Is This Too Much Is It Right Is The Taste Going Side Did We Over Salt We Been Quite Good Really Throughout Our Career Of Understanding How That Works In The Studio And Also There's A Real People Management Part Of That From A Producer's Point Of View There's A Lot Of Psychological Games Going On It's Not As Straightforward A Conversations You Might Want But It's Maybe As

39:54Soft And As Nuanced A Conversation As You Might Need In Order To Feel Like You're Losing Momentum Completely Just Because The Idea Itself Was Bad And Really The Moment Where That Can Go Most Sideways Is In The Last 20% You Can Ruin A Good Thing Pretty Easily In The Studio You Know By Keeping On Tinkering Going Back In Retracking You Lose A Little Bit Of Perspective And I Think Aaron He's Brilliant At Maintaining That Perspective And He

40:25Would Often Take Himself Away Every Day You Know There Was Like A School Run Or He Would Go For A Drive And He Would Be Like I Feel Like I Understand Where I Sit With This Music He Wasn't So In The Foxhole 24-7 A bit Like Marcus Was Lyrically In The Cafe I Think Aaron Knew What He Was Hoping To Get Out Of The Next 12 Hours Because He Slept On It I Think That's Important That Is All Part Of What Makes It Work And

Collaborating with guest contributors

40:49The Guest Contributors On The Album Span Quite Different Worlds Musically Don't Do You You Don't Have Guests On Your Records Do You As Far As I Can Recall No We Really Haven't Done That To This Extent You Know Done On EPs And We've Obviously Collaborated A ton Live But On Record We Haven't Done That Before And I Think It Was A Part Of Like The Confidence That We Felt Actually In Our Identity And

41:20Maybe Having Done Rush Me So Recently It Helped Us With That But We Just Felt Like We Know Who We Are We Can Invite People Into This And No One Is Going To Get Confused As To What We Are Who Are They're

41:41Identity To Bring People In Who Really Added Creatively To The Record And We Didn't Have A List Of People That We Wanted To Go To It Was Just Like These Are People We Have Relationships With Other Than Chris Stapleton And I'm Just Like A Turbo Fan As Chris Stapleton It's As Simple As That I Just Said If There's Any Way I Can Get To Chris Stapleton

42:11And He Said Yeah We Had A Phone Call And A Lot Of Mutual Love And Respect And Talked About Lots Of Areas Of Commonality And In Life As Well As In Work And And He Was Like Yes Send It Over I'll Do It Next Week And He Sent It Back And I Cried I Was So Fucking Happy Man Yeah He Turned It Into My Dream Gracie We've Known Since The Beginning Of Her Career And I Followed Her Very Closely Because Of Her Work With Erin I Think But Also Just Because We Love Her And She Had Been In

42:41The Building When We Reconnected With Erin And Started Sending Things Back And Forth And I Started Sending Her Lyrics Really Early On And Asking Her Opinion Because She Knew The Demos That We Were Writing On She Had The Banjo Song Demo That Erin Had Written With John Bellion As A Sketch Idea And She Was Like You Guys Should Definitely Do Something With That It's Got Your Name Written All Over It I Love It I'm Addicted To It And I Was Cool What Do You Think Of These For It And She Was Yeah And Was A cheerleader For The Record The Whole Way Through Actually I Looked Through Our Text The Other Day She Was Almost Like An

43:11A&R For This Record So At The End Of The Process We Just Sent Her The Whole Thing If You Fancy Singing On Anything You Have An Open Invite And I'm So Stoked That She Chose Badlands Because I Think I Partly Written Those Lyrics Hoping She

43:37Look Down Now I'm Not Done Here Yet Don't Look Down Now I'm Not Done Here Yet We also loved your story from Rubber Band Man about the text from Brandy Carlisle which is just another great little songwriting moment isn't it? We had

44:07Brandy on the podcast at one point so we sort of know that that's something she would do She's rad man she's fun she's just fun she's like my spirit animal and I'm hers we can go months and not talk and then we'll just call each other up you know those kind of friends that you just get straight back in where you left off you know we've been through some really cool experiences together with Joni Mitchell at the bowl and at the gorge and at Joni's house doing these jams and she worked with me on my

44:38solo record and I watched her and Elton do their thing and watched their friendship which is hilarious and yeah she's just been a real sister I think it's cool like crew of people that all had a hand in the making of this record it takes a village you know yeah are you going to draw on that network again for more in this run of productivity that you're in the middle of you know the way that Aaron approaches it is which I love and it's honestly part of our DNA as well it's like just make music for

45:09fun and stuff that sticks and feels relevant to our career cool but like the approach is just making music with your mates for fun and I think we lost some of that it all got a bit serious

45:30be a bit more playful again you know because those early songs that we wrote we basically wrote them so that we could have a fucking good time that night when we were playing at the ICA with Johnny Flynn we're like fuck we're playing with Johnny Flynn it's gonna be wicked we're gonna party it's gonna be great we need one more song to really make it fun so we wrote Little Lion

46:00to the same people we don't really know and that's what's quite fun we'll follow our nose and follow the fun well we'll be watching with interest lovely

Reflecting on the album release

46:11thank you thank you so much lovely conversation thanks for getting us to talk about things in ways that we haven't done before appreciate it

46:30that was Marcus Mumford and Ben Lovett of Mumford & Sons talking to us about their lean contender of a record

47:04Prizefighter very thoughtful guys who really are in a great place creatively and on quite the streak right now yeah feels like they really know at this point how to turn raw ideas into songs they do and that process they described with Aaron going through this kind of gathering of material in New York and Paris and other places was really cool yeah it sounded at one point like Marcus was pursuing Aaron across the world like it was Jason Bourne or something but then they settled in upstate New York didn't they and in 10 days managed to pull together this incredibly coherent record

47:37yeah and not only that but they managed the contributions of all of those well-chosen guests as well you know like Hosier and Gracie Abrams and also those who chipped in behind the scenes like Phineas or Brandy Carlyle or Justin Vernon yeah and Justin's not even a top-line name on the record is he he's kind of the ghost in the machine yeah and yet his style and sound is put to perfect use and as we said that curation is basically just an endless stream of good decisions isn't it and you know that takes a lot of practice and experience to not fail at that

48:09well they've been around a long time now haven't they I think they've really honed that skill of making good choices and you can see that in the expediency of Prizefighter as well you know landing less than a year after Rushmere it makes you wonder doesn't it how many great albums would have happened if it hadn't been for the promotional cycle that follows a release yeah but luckily they managed to take advantage of the mixing stage of Rushmere to hook up with Mr. Desner and they're coming back to it a year later and they're still happy with it aren't they well I think that's when you know you've captured something pretty special

48:40so thanks to Marcus and Ben for the lovely conversation Prizefighter is available everywhere cheers again to Flossie for organising and we'll be back in your feeds in no time take care