S3Ep11: The Truth About Generational Tension

Introduction

0:00Welcome to Organizational Sherlocks, the podcast where business meets psychology and your organizational puzzles meet their match. Join us for captivating stories and practical solutions to unravel your toughest challenges. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth, your guides to prescription for business success. Let's dive in. So listeners, quick question for

0:33you. What happens when fresh ambition meets seasoned perspective in the workplace? In today's organizations, generational conversations are often treated like conflict points, but they can actually become opportunities for deeper understanding, better collaboration, and stronger teams. And that's a wonderful question. And so this episode is really going to explore how generational differences shape communication, expectations, and how psychology is included

1:05in this within the workplace. So this framing is going to center, we're just going to kind of throw it out there as a guide. It's going to center on a 25-year-old professional engaging with a 45-year-old perspective in order to show how age gaps can create tension, but can also create insight and growth when

Generational Differences

1:25they're handled with curiosity instead of with judgment. So you kick us off today, Morgan? Yeah, certainly. So I'm sure many people have experienced and or at least seen the friendships that can sometimes develop between younger and older professionals in the workplace. And I'd love to use this twist to talk about generational differences and collaboration in said workplace. Because we've seen it, because many people have experienced it, I'm sure you can think of the growth either behind

2:00yourself, behind the other person in the situation, or behind the two people you saw as friends in the organization. It also talks to why people become friends in the workplace despite such large age grabs. I'd argue that it actually also applies to general life. But knowing that you talk about organizations and workplace, it's best attuned for us to talk about it to the workplace. Yeah, I would agree. I can think of many people just along a very wide age continuum, if you want to call it

2:37that, that I've been friends with in the in the workplace, but also in life. And I think there's a lot of power there. Of course, there are differences maybe in the way that we view things or we think about things. But I really think a lot of that is influenced by our context in general. I want to do a call out for one of my professors in grad school who always used to talk about the zeitgeist of the times, the hand motion, if you can see me as like necessary when you talk about the zeitgeist. Dr. Ken Solberg, who is an amazing human. So we'll give him a call out on that. But I do think that really

3:13does influence in a lot of ways how we kind of show up, how we think of things, and how we interact in the workplace. And so it kind of, you know, I think a lot of times we put people into boxes by saying, you know, this generation is all this, like Gen Z is all this thing, or millennials are all like this. But when you really look at it, I think it's more about the context and the experiences that people have had, more so than trying to assign a personality to a generation as a whole. I just

3:45don't think that's fair. I think that's exactly right. You know, age can influence the context, but does not define the character of that individual person. So even though, you know, I'd say the most common terms and phrases we see regarding Gen Z in the workplaces, you know, Gen Z is lazy. Gen Z doesn't want to work. Gen Z, yada, yada, yada. It's all about not wanting to work, not wanting to get work done. But at the same time, you're going to get possibly that 25-year-old in Gen Z at this point in time who doesn't fit any of those perspectives. And then that's when you

4:21hear people say, well, that person's going to lead this generation, or that person's going to yada, yada, or that person's not in the right generation. Yes, age can influence context,

Age and Context

4:31but there are so many different characters all within Gen Z alone. And yeah, maybe Gen Z as a whole has a certain, not as a whole, I guess, but the majority of Gen Z may have a certain perspective, but that isn't necessarily the perspective of all involved. I would argue that the way that we say Gen Z is lazy today is what was said when millennials entered the workforce, or millennials lazy. I bet it's the same phrase as when Gen X entered the workforce, they were saying they were lazy.

5:03Maybe more so than anything, they're green, they're young, they can be influenced, but also they might have a perspective that should be taken into account. Well, I mean, you think about it, like I'll just kind of throw myself out there kind of age-wise. I'm an older millennial, right? There's a, I would argue, I think, when I think about some of the younger millennials that I know, like we do, we are different. We think, we think differently in some

5:34ways. But I also think about, again, those experiences, like I remember, this is going to date me, listeners, just as an FYI, but I remember dial-up internet, right? I remember when the first cell phone came out, like those are things that even within my generation, the millennial generation, younger millennials never experienced, right? So you think about just even how tech increased, like how it, how it blew up during that generation. Of course, like there's going to be differences within it, but I love that you said that like each generation probably says the same thing,

6:09you know, something similar about the generation after them. I would totally agree. I have seen this happen so many times and I just, I'm like, but it's just different because the context is different. Our experiences are different. So. Yeah. And I think, I think with that, the way that each of these generations grow up is a little bit different. You know, millennials probably saw the biggest boom of technology. Gen Z more so grew up in that technology boom. And so they didn't start with, you know, dial-up internet like millennials. They had the internet, but then they saw technology increase,

6:44so by the time they were in schools, they were using iPads, they were using Chromebooks, whatever else they were using laptops more than notebooks. But same time, older Gen Z wasn't, older Gen Z was more so towards the millennial output of, you know, life. And that's why we also see the terms of the combined generations like zillennials. I would consider myself one of those personally. So I grew up writing with notebooks. But as I was growing up in school, they started bringing out laptops and they had the laptop carts. They had, they still had computer

7:18rums. So there was a combination. By the time I left the, you know, younger levels of school, that's when I saw Chromebooks getting entered. I was gone at that point in time because of my age group. But no, I didn't start with dial-up internet, to be honest. Or at least when I was using the internet, by the time I was using the internet, I wasn't. It was super annoying. You would just sit there and you'd wait for it and it'd make the little noise. And you're like, come on, just do something.

Environmental Influences

7:49But all in all, each generation has grown up in a different environment. Culturally, we have developed, we've changed. And so because of that, each individual generation has had different environments that they grew up in. So for example, within the context we're discussing, a 25-year-old might value flexibility, speed, and meaning, while a 45-year-old prioritizes stability, credibility, and long-term thinking. I'd argue though, we have to think 25-year-old versus 45-year-old.

8:21They're usually about two generations apart right now. And so that's Gen X. I believe the younger Gen X with the older Gen Z, I think at the moment, based off of timelines. So you take that, but there's someone in the middle, which is the millennials, who I would argue prioritize a mixture of the two. Yes, stability is important, but there's a reason younger generations when they enter the workforce don't usually stay at their first job for more than three years because they

8:53want something different. They want something that meets their values more so than just getting their foot in the door. But when they do stay, it's because this 45-year-old may have had an effect on the 25-year-old's perspective, helping influence them to develop them. I'd argue that at the same time, we're seeing a generalized desire for flexibility in the workplace, flexibility in schedules. And it's not just Gen Z. It's not just millennials. It's boomers. It's Gen Xers. They all want

9:27that flexibility too. But that didn't come in, yes, partially due to COVID, partially due to the remote work environments that were forced upon us. But at the same time, that's what Gen Z started with in the workplace. And even for some in school, high school or college, despite flexibility starting with COVID, it's the environment 25-year-olds, the 25-year-old grew up in. So that's what they still want. And now the 45-year-old's like, I like that. I like that idea. I do want that.

9:59Well, I think it's how can we focus on those commonalities, right? Like to use flexibility as the example, you know, we can all, in all age groups and all generations, want that flexibility. And the reason that we want it may be different, right? You think about people, you know, again, I'll throw myself out there. I have young kids, you know, so the flexibility I need is often related to, I need to get to hockey or I need to get to baseball or they have a birthday party and I need to leave a little bit early for that. So having flexibility for that, right? While like my dad

10:30is almost retired. But my dad is, you know, needing flexibility because he's got adult children and he wants to be able to go travel with his wife, you know? And that would be my mom. I should just say my mom. Um, but that was a really weird way of saying that. So my parents want to travel. Right. But the commonality there is still that flexibility. And so I wonder if we can move from, oh, like this place of, oh, well, you know, millennials or, or Gen Z or whatever, want this

11:01flexibility because it's this idea of kind of being like selfish, if you will, to a place of we, but we both want the same thing. How can we, how can we do that in a way that is, um, respectful and lacks judgment? Like, I don't need to look at you, Morgan, and say, well, I don't like the reason. I don't, the reason doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is we can create environments where flexibility is normal, acceptable, and respected. And I think you just honed in on a piece

11:32of it where there are different groupings of individuals within each and within each, um, generation who may end up valuing the same thing, even if it's for different reasons. So, you know, parenthood, the millennials that are in parenthood right now might want flexibility because of their kids. The Gen Xers or even the boomers, they want flexibility because they want to still work or they have to still work, but they want to have time to travel and they haven't had that opportunity in life yet. Versus Gen Z who comes in, they might want flexibility because this is the environment

12:05they were used to. They were, they grew up in this and maybe for some it's because they, they, yes, might be just selfish, but maybe for others it's because they have other priorities in life. You know, if I'm someone that wants flexibility, it's because I want to go to the gym when there's not a hundred people in the gym personally. Yes, that's a little selfish, but at least it's for a wellness reason. Um, I want flexibility because by the time I have children, I want to have that flexibility for kids. Right. So I'm giving you kind of my personal perspective here, but there are

12:38different reasons. There's different groupings within each generation that causes us to have shared values across generations. Um, now one thing, just sorry, not to go on a full monologue here, but one thing you kind of hinted to, and before our high level executives and our high level leaders

Psychological Safety

12:57kind of go pish posh with this term, um, psychological safety does change the conversation and psychological safety does not need to mean coddling. It doesn't. Psychological safety means people can give an opinion without feeling overly judged or dismissed. Mm-hmm. And the reason, even if you disagree entirely with this individual, having them be able to voice their concerns is probably, or their desires is probably important

13:30as a leader, since then you can tell what motivates them, what kind of drives them to do better in work. Or you might hear concerns you wouldn't have heard because people are afraid to speak up, um, things that you might need to fix, problems that might be happening in the environment, toxicity in the culture, um, safety concerns, you know, all that. You only learn that when there's a level of psychological safety. Again, it's not coddling. It's the term that yes, people might

14:01use to back up coddling, but it's actually a term that's more so about having openness to others' perspectives. Um, and that is actually critical when you have multiple generations in an environment or multiple personalities or multiple different levels of values. Because again, generations are not a personality themselves. I completely agree. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, you know, I talk about psychological safety a lot. I'm actually going to be working with one of my clients

14:31and, and bringing the concept of psychological safety into a space where, um, critical conversations are happening and they're, they're really noticing that people are just not showing up or they're not feeling comfortable. And so we're kind of going to try to level the playing field, um, in talking about psychological safety. And I think, you know, even thinking about that client in particular, it's a mixture of, you know, people who have worked in this organization for, you know, a year when people who've been there for 35 years, you know, and, and so again, yes, I understand why some

15:07people might say, well, psychological safety, like it's a buzzword. I get it. And I really like in, even though it's used as a buzzword, but, and that's fine, like whatever. But, but to me, what it really is, is it's, it's recognizing the human behind the statement. Psychological safety is recognizing the human behind the statement. And we can recognize, sorry, I was going to say, we can recognize people, right? And, and, and their needs and their thoughts, and to your point, their desires or their concerns,

15:42we can recognize those things and we don't need to judge them for it. That's, that's not fair. We all have them. Um, so let's create a space where we can understand them. Yeah. And one, two notes, I guess I'd like to make is one, you're better off in your own internal physiological stress state to simply accept people as they are. Just as a note, this is something that takes a lot of people to learn is you can't control everyone. And so as a leader, you're trying to control those perspectives of those around you without having the proper influence to, you know, give your own opinions back because

16:16you're just dismissing them. Then you're trying to simply control, giving you a higher level of stress, giving you a higher level of, um, I guess management where people are required to go to you. They are, there's a higher dependence. So kind of going back to our previous episode on, you know, you want to remove that dependence as a leader and whether it be mentee and mentor or manager, um, employee. But that takes me to my second point. It psychological safety doesn't just apply to

16:49someone voicing their concerns or voicing their value, um, or voicing the way that they would go about something, even if they know that you're going to disagree with it. It's also your ability to disagree with them because in a non-psychologically safe environment, your disagreement would not be held to a level of, you know, um, respect. But at the same time, if your denial or your disagreement needs to be held, but doesn't actually have an influence to make the other person see your

17:23perspective and understand it and maybe change their perspective, meaning like truly change their opinion or adjust their opinion to be more of a compromised state. If you're not doing it in that manner, then you don't have psychological safety. Instead, you just have a manager demanding things to go their way or a mentor demanding things to go their way. So you're not truly influencing someone. They're just following what you say, again, creating that dependency. Yeah. And I would often argue

17:53decreasing like diversity of thought and, and decreasing the potential for innovation. So when people are unwilling or unable or feel unsafe in sharing their perspectives, what you really see is a decrease in innovation and, and we all live in a world right now where innovation is so important. Um, and can you imagine limiting that potential? I just, I, I think that promoting psychological safety is the way to get what most executives want, which is that innovation. Yeah. I'd argue the

18:24fastest growing environments really take into account suggestions and, um, levels of education. And it doesn't mean that you have to simply change because someone suggests something, but you can take it into account and even explaining why it might not work to the person will help them better approach future suggestions or future innovation with the necessary perspective to do so. Um, so all in all, it's that conflict of, you know, giving a suggestion, having possible disagreements. Um, it's more so a good

18:57conflict if that makes sense. Um, because workplace conflict does tend to be about interpretation and the ability to share perspectives and go between two perspectives to find, to kind of find, find the final solution. Yeah. I would, I would argue that I think the term conflict has kind of gotten a bad rap socially. Like we think of conflict as like, we're going to go get in a fist fight or scream at each other or whatever it is. And I just, I, I am in, you know, again, this is my opinion. So

19:33without a fear of judgment, because I'm in a psychologically safe space, um, I think conflict can be really productive. I think that when people think the same way, you know, that idea, that psychological concept of group think, um, nothing changes, nothing changes, things don't get better. We may continue the same patterns that are unhealthy or unhelpful, um, as a group, um, because no one feels safe enough to stand up and say, you know what, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't seem right.

20:05Yeah. You know, you need to be able to stand up. You, again, if you, there's a safety concern in the environment, then you're not going to learn about it. If the people don't feel like they can bring up that conflict. Um, and for those of you who are, who are unsure what group think is, it's the idea of, you cannot separate yourself from the thought of the group. And that's where mob mentality comes from. So think when a protest turned violent. So a protest, usually it's the free thinking,

20:37but a mob is the idea of violence associated with it. So mob mentality is the idea that, oh, violence is accepted in this circumstance. It's not, um, while a protest violence isn't accepted and you're simply speaking your free thoughts, right? So there's a difference there. Um, group think can turn into mob mentality if you don't break from the group or you don't challenge the group. I guess that's the term we should use with conflict is it's more about challenge in conflict

21:11than conflict being the bad thing. Um, I actually did something. Oh, sorry. I was just saying challenge doesn't have to be a bad thing, you know? I mean, I, and, and honestly, when I'm working with teams, a lot of times it's how, how, like we, I actually try to promote challenge, like promote challenge, promote healthy conflict, figure out how you can do that. Right. Um, and, and trying to like model that and practice it and role play it because it doesn't have to be a situation where I stand up and I lean over you and I say, you're wrong. Like it doesn't have to be that. That doesn't have to

21:44be the challenge. Um, oftentimes I think it can be helpful to come at it from a place of curiosity. You know, Morgan, I find it really interesting that you're thinking about it that way because I see it very differently. I'd like to share my perspective, right? So that we can try to see where are we coming together on this idea, but maybe where, where is it different? And then where can we go from here? That is also a challenge. The way that I just said, that is also a challenge, but in a way that is productive, um, and not a way that stops you Morgan from like being able to

22:19think what you think. Do you know what I mean? Um, I'm trying to model the behavior that I wish I saw more in teams. Yes. I see what you mean. Um, I think that's a great example. And it, it, it also makes me think of, you know, challenge is related to goals, which is related to deeper meaning of work, which is related to deeper meaning of values. And so that's actually where you see a Gen Z perspective come in right there is they want to feel like they have a purpose in their work. They want to enjoy their work, feel like they have a purpose in their work. So just a value here.

22:52Um, and it, it does come out of quote Gen Z though. You see the value pop up across all generations still is the idea of meaning behind work. In order to have meaning behind work, you have to be working towards accomplishing and over and achieving certain challenges you are faced with. And that's when I talk about like eustress versus distress. In fact, not everyone can necessarily, um, add the vocabulary surrounding this. Um, especially Gen Z, they might say, I want meaning

23:25they might not know exactly what they even are intending to say by that. Um, but they at least know that they want to have a purpose. They might not be able to verbalize it as well. Uh, I say that because I had an interview this week, uh, or I was interviewing this week as a Gen, a Gen Z based off of, um, you know, college and all that. I didn't know the person's actual age, but I can assume it's a Gen Z individual, um, because they graduated college a couple of years ago. And so with that,

23:57I take that and I actually explained eustress versus distress. She says something about stress and I'm like, well, do you know what eustress versus distress is? Yes. I can't help but to even teach in an interview. And I explained that to her and I was like, so what do you think of that? Like, how do you, do you, would you say that you're someone that enjoys eustress more than you actually realized? And she's like, yeah, cause I like a challenge. I like to problem solve. She's like, I like to always overcome something and make it better. And that's the type of individual I'm looking for in this role. Because no matter what innovation being a value of the company,

24:31it is necessary for team members to join, to want a purpose, to develop, to overcome challenges. Um, and you don't get there without curiosity. I don't think. Yeah. No, I would completely agree. And I think even that, just that example that I just gave, you know, of that, there was curiosity embedded within that, you know, I'm curious about your perspective. And, um, I, I think that is, if we can promote curiosity over judgment and making assumptions about what we think somebody might,

25:07um, want or need or experience, if we can prioritize curiosity, I think we, we really do just naturally create that psychologically safe space that provides a place for, or that creates a space for, um, better teamwork, um, better collaboration, better communication. Um, I think this is especially important. I'd be remiss if I didn't say, when we think about, um, like neurodiversity, like, you know, ADHD, autism, um, dysgraphia, like I won't go through all of it. Right. But when we think

25:40about, you know, kind of the, the neurological kind of brain and, and how diversity occurs within it, if we can come at a place from curiosity, imagine the power that can come from all the people in the room. You know what I mean? It's, it's not just the one person with the idea it's everyone. Maybe there's different ways of thinking about it. Um, and it also, in my mind, it creates empathy empathy or it helps with empathy. And also, if I'm being really honest with you, it helps with

26:12friendships. Like, I don't know about you, but there's, there's a lot of research out there that suggests that more, what is most important in retaining people at companies is not money. Oftentimes it's mostly the relationships that they have with people and the value. And so if we come at it in a place of, from curiosity, instead of judgment, imagine the friendships we could make, you know, regardless of age, it doesn't matter if you're 25 or 45, you know, I think there's a lot of, a lot of, um, important pieces there, but again, I would just encourage our listeners and

26:44whether you're a leader or, or not to kind of join the conversation with curiosity over judgment.

Curiosity Over Judgment

26:52And that does make me think about the three P's that I tend to use. And, um, when talking with managers who are interviewing to find overall fit and it's, um, not just purpose, not just meaning in work, but it's people and work as well. So that's one of these. Um, but you're going to have to find the previous episode on that, I think, to, to really look at the three P's fully. Um, all in all though, I feel like we can take this context of the 25 year old and the 45 year old, and we can think about it as, you know, Gen Z, they, they want, might want flexibility. They might be, um, more impulsive

27:27from perspectives because in some circumstances, the 25 year old might propose a new bold approach and have like an urgency behind it because they don't have the, the patience, I guess to say, um, they might have the patience, but they might just, they might see the, the finish line and want to get there right away. But it's the job of the 45 year old to push back in a healthy manner, not because the idea is bad, but because they're, they need like to look at the similar,

27:57they need to look at similar strategies to determine if it's in fact, something that's worked in the past, something that they've never tried. Is it something that's truly going to be beneficial? You know, the, the, um, I guess pros and cons you would say, and maybe even some of the scientific backing behind some interventions. Um, but the 45 year old and 25 year old together may come up with a better solution than if one was solely in charge of finding the solution. Um, so it's the, it's the job of both parties to listen to one another and that empathy, yes, develops that

28:32friendship or not only have the 25 year old and 45 year old in this company solved a problem more optimally than if only one of them was in charge of the project, but now they've probably become friends at work or friendly in the least manner. Absolutely. I mean, I think what it really boils down to is that we can, we can choose to continue on this path of seeing generations before us or after us or whatever, in a certain light, or we can recognize that we're at different ages with

29:02different experiences and use that as something that is helpful and, um, builds relationships and instead of, instead of breaking them down. And I think, you know, we kind of have a path to go down my, my viewpoint, obviously our listeners can probably tell like I generations are generations. I don't really, it doesn't, I don't really care. Um, if we, like what generation you are to be, to be honest, if we can have a great conversation, if we can work well together, if we can disagree with one another and have that healthy conflict, that's all that I asked for. Um, so I would

29:36encourage our listeners to come again with a place of, from a place of curiosity instead of judgment, um, and just kind of ask yourself, you know, what would change in your workplace, um, if we treated this generational trend tension as something that's useful instead of something that's a problem. Yeah. Instead of pointing out the biases or the deficits of quote generations, you know, it's not everyone in the generation. I'm going to say it again, instead of pointing that out, maybe we

30:07should look at the strengths and combine the strengths of different generations together for more, to work more wisely towards the work environment and to develop the work environment. Um, so if you thought this episode was helpful, um, I recommend sending it off to someone that maybe wants this perspective or, or could use a new perspective, um, as we challenge them to be more curious, but also if you have a 25 year old or a 45 year old, you have an age gap friendship at the work environment, send this to them. Maybe, maybe they'll be like, huh, this is why we work so well

30:41together. That could be. Yeah. Well, listeners, this concludes another intriguing episode of Organizational Sherlock's. I'm Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth reminding you that the journey to success is an ongoing investigation. As we've talked about, stay curious, stay strategic, and keep utilizing insights to decode your business mysteries. Join us every Friday for your next whodunit. This is Organizational Sherlock's closing today's case. We'll see you next time.

31:28We'll see you next time. Bye.