S3 Ep16: "Am I Good enough?" Imposter Syndrome at Work + What to Do Next

Introduction to Imposter Syndrome

0:00Welcome to Organizational Sherlock's, the podcast where business meets psychology and your organizational puzzles meet their match. Join us for captivating stories and practical solutions to unravel your toughest challenges. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth, your guides to a prescription for business success. Let's dive in. So listeners,

0:33let's think about this. You spent four years being evaluated, graded, and ranked at college. Then you graduate. Suddenly there's no rubric, there's no GPA, and there's no professor telling you if you're doing it right. For many new grads, that silence is where imposter syndrome takes root. And the cruel irony, the higher the achiever, the harder it hits. That could not be any more accurate and something I can relate to. And so I think I want our listeners

1:07to know that this episode, we're really going to be, you know, celebrating that graduation season by talking about that voice that really follows you through every major transition in life, whether that's being a new grad, getting a new role, starting at a new company, maybe even switching your career and starting a new career. So it's that voice that everyone kind of, or it's the voice that says everyone else has it figured out, and you're the only one who's faking it, right? We're really going to break down today why imposter syndrome happens, who it hits the hardest, and really what can we do,

1:43what can leaders do to help others through imposter syndrome. But more importantly, it's really about how professional, how professionals have to learn to lead themselves through it first, which is an area that I know all too well. So I'm excited about this conversation today, Morgan. Yeah, I think it's a great framing. So happy graduation to a lot of the students out there, whether you're in high school, college, getting a new certification, a new degree, maybe even just transitioning careers at the moment, any type of transition in the professional environment, you can see imposter syndrome take

2:17root. But we just felt that the graduation to a full-time professional was a great arc that we

Defining Imposter Syndrome

2:24could use. So just to set the scene, what is imposter syndrome? Elizabeth, do you want to answer for our listeners? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think imposter syndrome is definitely one of those kind of quote-unquote buzzwords. I feel like I've heard about it a million times in my life, when I was in grad school, when I was, like, just all the time, right? But what it really is all about, it's kind of that internal narrative that, yes, in some ways is about self-doubt, right? And a doubt that, like,

2:58am I good enough, essentially? Am I going to be successful? Am I going to be able to do these things, right? Am I capable? But it's really where it shifts into imposter syndrome instead of confidence, because I think we also have to talk about those as kind of separate yet related things, is it's really that just ongoing or persistent belief that you have fooled everyone, and it's only a matter of time before people figure out that you don't actually know what's going on. Mm-hmm. So funny enough, this term came to be in 1978 in a study following high-achieving women,

3:33but obviously research will show that it cuts across all sorts of genders, backgrounds, fields, etc. Yes, Elizabeth is totally right. It is a buzzword at this point in time, but it has a strong value when we think of someone's, you know, like, thought of self, and, you know, yes, their confidence does relate to it, their self-efficacy. Overall, just who they think of them, who they themselves think they are, right? And how a transition in life can possibly create this break where you do feel like

4:09you're fooling everyone around you, and you're just almost waiting to get. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can think of so many times in my life where I've felt this way. You know, I think grad school is a prime opportunity for a lot of people because they're doing practicums or internships or, you know, whatever it might be. And then all of a sudden, you're out on your own, right? And you go, okay, well, you know, again, like, what should I choose? What path should I take? Like, what's the best theory to guide my decisions? All those things. And you don't, not that you don't have the support

4:43at times, but it's a different type of support, if that makes sense. Where it's not, as you mentioned, somebody grading you or giving you really direct feedback all the time.

4:55Yeah, no, definitely. And I think that's also a great way to put it because oftentimes we see this break with a new grad and that they have these strong, specific KPIs. They have those rubrics. They know exactly what they're being measured on, when they're being measured. They have tests, they have evaluations, they have clinicals, whatever else they might be doing. And then they go into an environment that might not be as structured as in the workplace. You know, we have talked about the importance of KPIs and the importance of performance management, but at times it's not super structured or there's a lot of, even if it is structured,

5:30there's a lot of underlying measures that you're getting evaluated on. And some of those, even just being your behavior and your traits and things that you don't necessarily get evaluated on in school. So again, like, yeah, no, I think it's a good point. And honestly, like, I think, I think what's interesting, and this is maybe going on a bit of a tangent, so apologies in advance, but what's interesting is that imposter syndrome really is this like internal experience, or we see it as this internal experience of feeling like you're maybe not good enough or that somebody's going to

6:04figure out that you don't know something, right? And just the act of going through that, or kind of those that, that experience for people is kind of reinforcing the idea that you don't have it figured out, right? And I think that is a, and I know, again, a bit of a tangent, but I like what you said about structure or environments. Like, the cool thing is that there are the environment, your, or the place work, let's say, or the environment that you're in actually can help you through that imposter

6:36syndrome if it's structured in a way that is conducive to helping. So even though we're talking

Causes and Effects of Imposter Syndrome

6:44about this, like, the imposter syndrome thing, I want people to know if you're experiencing it, like, it doesn't mean that you always have to, and that you always will, because you won't. I can promise you that. Yeah. And on top of that imposter syndrome, I would also think that we should caution our followers that, you know, imposter syndrome, it's not a personality flaw. And it's, and people with imposter syndrome don't actually usually have issues with performance in the end. In fact, there are, there is research that shows that people with imposter syndrome perform better interpersonally or not, and are actually more collaborative due to the self-doubt.

7:20They're more attentive of themselves and they want to learn from others. And so those individuals tend to mold into an environment, I'd argue, better than someone that maybe doesn't have imposter syndrome. Again, this is, it's not guaranteed that someone with imposter syndrome will in fact mold into the workplace better than someone without, but it is proven that they are more, they are better interpersonally. Yeah. Which I think makes sense though, too, right? When you, when you feel like you don't know

7:51something like you're more, not everyone, I'm kind of generalizing here, but I know for myself and maybe you too, Morgan, like I'm more apt to ask force feedback or try to understand or ask the questions that I might not typically ask. Right. And so it makes sense why that collaboration would increase, um, or why just the, the relationships would be built. And, and actually I think that's a really helpful and protective way of like helping someone grow through imposter syndrome.

8:21Yeah, definitely. Oh, like what helps, what doesn't help with imposter syndrome will typically saying like, no, no, you totally do belong here. That's not going to necessarily help. In fact, this individual with imposter syndrome needs to see small wins that compound over time. Um, this is actually backed by self-efficacy theory where, um, it's this, the mastery through experience. And so they can see that these, these small wins that they have over time, um, are, you know, trackable and that they are, in fact, they do belong there. They do, um, they maybe aren't

8:54the imposter they thought they were. They're not fooling people because they are actually doing a good job. Um, but in, in addition to that, we're talking about it because what helps imposter syndrome, normalizing it, normalizing it 100% helps, um, helps people through imposter syndrome. Oh, absolutely. It does. And I mean, I feel like we could do a raise of hands, like who's ever experienced it, you know, this week. No, I'm just kidding. Um, I mean, there's definitely times and, and it, and sorry, I just want to say this too. Like foster syndrome is not something that just happens when you graduate or at work, right? Like it, as a parent, sometimes I think, I don't know

9:28what I'm doing. Like when I'm, you know, when are they going to figure out I'm not a great mom, um, you know, and like, that's, I think again, a normal thing that people experience from time to time. Right. And so I think that I do have normalizing. It's very important. Yeah. It's important. Just like the idea of how we say, say to normalize, you know, self-review self-reflection, um, because the only way you get better is by self-reflecting. And I do think as individuals with imposter syndrome naturally do that. Um, and so self-reflection

9:59becomes normalized. Thus I feel imposter syndrome becomes normalized through that. Uh, and, and like I noted too, like noting those small wins to just increase that confidence and then hopefully fight some of the, the issues with what you're attributing success to, you know, don't attribute your successes to luck and, and your failures to your ability. Instead, maybe you need to look at, okay, what really affected, um, the success? Was there a combination of external factors and internal factors and what affected and what can I actually attribute the failure to what's extra, what's internal? There's

10:33usually both. There's usually not one or the other. It's usually both working together, external and internal, um, attribution. I want to break that down though, because I did say that quickly. Basically let's think of an idea of a individual gets promoted. Okay. So they got promoted and they have a little bit of imposter syndrome. They think the promotion is due to luck. It's due to the fact that maybe someone left the position. It's due to the fact that, um, they were simply there, they were internal and they were just the easiest one. So they're

11:06attributing it to external factors rather than I was the best fit for this position. Not only was I internal, which is an external thing, but I also have the skillset to do it. I have the knowledge of the company to step into this role. And, and the people around me believe that I can develop those maybe leadership like skillsets, um, to lead the team I've promoted, I've been promoted to lead, right? That's a combination of the two. Um, separately, we do see the opposite of imposter

11:36syndrome where there's the people that attribute all failures to external factors and attribute all successes to internal factors. That's, um, I guess I'm going to say in just short terms, you can think of a more of a narcissistic arc in that way, opposite of imposter syndrome. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah. And everyone, and everyone's like just a little bit different too. Right. But I, but I think what I'm hearing are kind of like a underlying tone in, in what you just said is that yes, there's the internal pieces that we have control over. Right. And we get to

12:11kind of figure out from, for ourselves and the external piece really does put an emphasis on the environment, kind of being aware and, and ready to help and support through these things. Right. And so like, I think about companies that I've worked for, even the company that I own, it's like, if I'm going to hire someone who's relatively new to the field, right. Whether that's that they just graduated, they're, you know, changing careers, whatever it might be, it doesn't matter, whatever that transition is. I should be aware as a leader that they may be experiencing some

12:46imposter syndrome. Right. And then I can do something and we'll talk about what those

Leader's Role in Helping with Imposter Syndrome

12:51somethings are in this moment, but I can do something to help them through that experience. Right. And I, and I see that as a leader's responsibility in a lot of ways, one of the, and I'm not going to like necessarily give a full list, but one of the biggest things that I think is missing from a lot of organizations or a lot of, I mean, even volunteering and all that kind of stuff is feedback, frankly, is, is really honest, direct feedback. Right. Not in a mean way, necessarily. I mean, you can, if anyone's ever, if anyone's ever read Radical Candor, Kim Scott's

13:26book, like she talks about caring personally and challenging directly. It's one of my favorite books. It's so good, but I love the, that kind of tagline, if you will, that we can care personally and challenge directly or provide feedback directly is another way of saying that. Right. Because when you have that like feedback desert, if you will, it just promotes more imposter syndrome. People don't know they can't challenge those internal thoughts. If they're not getting any feedback from their

13:57environments. All of that is so important. And one way that environmentally or just, I don't know, within the workplace as a leader, it's something we can do to help people who may be experiencing imposter syndrome. Yeah. And I'd argue for those new grads out there, you know, it's not necessarily the responsibility of others to cure your imposter syndrome. You know, this is a, it's an issue that you are physically, that you are internally feeling, you are internally, um, emotionally having, um, having a reaction to the change, that transition you are going through. Right. So it's not necessarily

14:31the job of others around you to change that for you. You know, just like in a mental health situation, it's not the job of others to change it for you. You have to work through it on your own. You have to get, get, uh, in a way, but that doesn't mean others aren't around to support that. Um, and so it's really great for, for, for the organization, especially bringing in new grads to have training programs, to have training measures, to have things along those lines that takes what the KPIs they used to be tracked on, you know, their grades, their, their rubric, et cetera, et cetera, take that

15:02and then apply it in a different way, making sure those KPIs in the organization that they can go after. Oftentimes we see the imposter syndrome come to be because someone has been going towards a certain achievement for a while. They're looking at this goal, looking at this challenge. And once they've achieved it, then they're like, well, what's next? And instead of going after a new challenge, now they're in this limbo period of, okay, I've got, I've succeeded in, in my success. I've, I've transitioned into this new role, this new company as into being a professional, but now,

15:39now what do I do? People are more naturally motivated, more naturally satisfied when they have something to, you know, strive towards, right? And so having KPI measures, having challenges, giving feedback are really great ways to not only defeat imposter syndrome, but maintain engagement and maintain satisfaction in an organization. So really, when we talk about imposter syndrome, we're actually connecting back to these other constructs and organization. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly,

16:13like if we just even think about the conversation we've had today and how they'll go, those pieces connect back, like by building a structure for people who are new in your company, right? Or maybe switching positions, whatever it is, by building that structure, you're providing an opportunity for those small wins to happen, right? To then have an impact on their ability, like their, their ability to, or their confidence and, and whatever, their belief in their own abilities is what I was trying to say. Um, all of those things are connected and it's really not that much work. You would do

16:47that anyway. And I think that's the point is like, like companies that really focus on building out those KPIs, having very clear, transparent goals, um, and provide an environment for employees to be successful, right? Like, yes, there's a part of it where like the employee has to want to do the work, of course. However, what I'm like, when we think about it from like the, like the environment, if you're creating that structure, it's going to automatically lead to those quick wins or those,

17:18not quick wins, maybe quick wins, but small wins. Yeah. That eventually become, oh, wow. I actually do know more about this job or this company or this role than I thought I did. And I'd argue as on the organization side of looking at imposter syndrome, it's also preventing someone from like a new hire from misattributing failures, um, to other types of buzzwords out there saying, oh, I have a toxic boss. Oh, I have this. Oh, I have that. Because you're, you're focused on ensuring that there's like clear measurable circumstances and challenges

17:51for them, um, that keep them engaged in a positive manner instead of engaged in that more negative manner. You know, I actually just talked with Dr. Butra in our last podcast about, you know, the buzzwords like people want to change careers or change jobs simply because they have a toxic manager, but do they really, sometimes that toxic manager is just not giving the feedback that this person wants. Well, now let's get to the individual level of defeating imposter syndrome. Well, if your boss isn't giving you the feedback you need or want, you feel like you're struggling, what's the best

18:23thing you can do? It's to approach your boss. So to approach your manager and ask for feedback, ask how you're doing. Clarify that. Are you meeting expectations or are there things that you should be striving towards? I mean, you have to think a manager is looking after multiple people. And so they're not necessarily going to give you feedback on every nitty gritty little thing you do, but they might pull you in on like bigger circumstances. Once a behavior becomes more problematic until then, though, if you feel like you're struggling with imposter syndrome and you're

18:56worried you're not on the right track, it is good to ask for feedback. Obviously, you want you want to do that within consideration of the manager. You don't want to be asking for feedback every step of the way. And I'd argue to managers, it's it's your job to turn it back around and say, well, I've given you answers like this before. Like, what do you think? I do that all the time. If I get too many questions from someone, I'm like, I'm not gonna I actually will say I'm like, I am not going to answer your question, but I'm not going to answer your question because you know the answer. I'm like, so once

19:26you have the answer, you can bring it to me and I'll give you the thumbs up. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, like even just the relationship with your supervisor or your leader, like it's a two way street. And I think people forget that at times. Right. It makes me think of kind of the old adage of you treat people the way you want to be treated. Right. Well, there's parts of that. I agree in parts. I don't. There's we won't get into all of that today. But you think about that and it's like, OK, if you're not getting what you need in that relationship, why wouldn't you talk to

20:00about it? You know, like if if I if you and I are working together, I would. Granted, we have a relationship that's different than that. But I'm like, whatever. I've known each other forever. But I would still be open and say, Morgan, I really need you to be a little bit more dropped with your feedback for me to benefit from it. Right. That is really powerful. And so I just again, I just want to throw that out there. And I guess maybe just support your points that it's a two way street. Right. It's you can ask for feedback. And if you need more or you're feeling like this imposter

20:35syndrome, you know, build that relationship with your supervisor, have a conversation with them. Right. Help allow them the opportunity, your leader, the opportunity to show you where you're succeeding and where those small wins are. You know what I mean? Because sometimes we just don't see it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I do feel like the I want to give some key takeaways for some like for a new grad or any type of person that's transitioning between careers or jobs.

21:06You know, it is you are partially responsible for ensuring that you are successful. You know, it is not just those around you that's that are to ensure you're successful. You are responsible to go on to this job and, you know, be a little bit more curious to be a little bit more open to feedback, to learning, to be a little bit more flexible in how you do things, because, you know, an organization, a certain organization has been running in a certain way for so long. You're not going to come in and change that for how it fits to you. Instead, you're going to have

21:38to get to the organization. Right. But I would argue that the takeaways I want to kind of list out in a few minutes, those can actually be not only applied by the individual, but the organization can look at it and give the individual opportunities to touch base with themselves within these takeaways too. That is something that I tend to work on when I'm working on onboarding experiences with organizations is, OK, how can we put these little things into practice that cause this person to take ownership and take these actions for themselves, though we'll give them opportunities

22:13to do so? I mean, it's all about intentional design, right? I mean, that's really what it is. Yeah, it's you're thinking about what onboarding needs to look like and how it can be most helpful for people. And one consideration in that intentional design is people in transition might be experiencing some imposter syndrome, right? Yeah. So if you have any key takeaways I want our listeners to take forth, again, this is for the

Key Takeaways for Individuals and Organizations

22:43typical person dealing with imposter, but also for organizations to think of in helping this person tackle imposter syndrome would be that, one, imposter syndrome is super normal, especially at graduations or in between transitions of organizations, careers, etc. It's also expected. Second, confidence is built through action, not just mindset shifts alone. With that action, three, you should be tracking your wins, even in the small ones. Four, always seek honest feedback. And ambiguity is where imposter

23:20syndrome thrives. And so when you can decrease that ambiguity, when you can increase the understanding you have of this challenge, this expectation, you will be more successful. And then five, if you're that leader, your onboarding process can fight imposter syndrome, but it could also fuel it. So think of these key takeaways for the individuals dealing with it to help them transition more efficiently and more effectively into the work environment. Absolutely. I like those takeaways. And I appreciate

23:53the idea of normalizing these things. So thank you for that. I just want to say congratulations to anyone who is graduating or moving into a new role or whatever it might be in this season. I know for myself, I will be attending many graduations. I have a lot of nieces and nephews that are graduating from high school or college or whatever it might be. So I will be at a lot of them. And it's just really cool to see people and how proud their people are in the crowd of them walking across the stage. So kudos to

24:25everyone for all the hard work. There'll be more hard work, but you'll get through it. Yeah, kudos to you guys. Congratulations and organizations. Good luck with your hiring timelines come this summer. Let's think about these imposters, these imposter feeling people as they come into your environment when you talk about onboarding. Awesome. All right, listeners. Well, this concludes another intriguing episode of Organizational Sherlock's. I'm Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth reminding you that the journey to success is an ongoing investigation. Remember to stay curious, stay strategic, and keep utilizing

25:00insights to decode your business mysteries. Join us every Friday for your next whodunit. This is Organizational Sherlock's closing today's case. We will see you all next time.

25:24We'll see you all next time.