Tove Lo wants her music to sound out of control (ft. Tove Lo)

Introducing artist Tuvalu

0:00Support for the show comes from Sonos. If you listen to the show, you know that good music doesn't just emerge out of thin air. There's a lot of design and thoughtfulness that goes into crafting a great song. Sonos brings that same level of thoughtful design to their sound system. For Sonos, it's not just about engineering one great speaker. It's about creating a holistic system that lets you control the sound from room to room and moment to moment and totally immerse yourself. It's a sound system engineered to make you feel. Visit Sonos.com and build your system. Sonos. Love the sound. Feel the system.

0:42Hey, I've got the campaign brief ready. Built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape. Approved? Oh, agents, where would we be without you? Somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at Monday.com. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And today we're talking to the artist Tuvalu. Tuvalu, in many ways, is the platonic Switched on Pop guest. She's had massive commercial success, but she's also maintained an experimental approach. She's a dynamic solo performer,

1:16but she's also written hits for other artists. She approaches music with raw viscerality, but she's also deeply thoughtful and intellectual about her craft. It's the kind of dualities that make for our favorite brand of pop. Tuva has collaborated with Nick Jonas, Flume, Charlie XCX, Alessio Coldplay, and Major Lazer. She's written tracks for Lorde, Zara Larson, and Ellie Goulding, and she's released four studio albums of her own. Now she has a new release, Estrus, which combines Tuvalu's signature aesthetic with lyrics of hedonistic release and philosophic questioning.

1:54In short, it's something only Tuvalu could make. Here's our conversation. Tuvalu, welcome to Switched on Pop. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. We've been discussing, breaking down your music for over a decade, but we've never had the chance to speak to you in person. Now we've got about six albums to go through.

Overcoming writer's block with Estrus

2:22Well, we want to start with your latest album, Estrus, and we want to start right at the very beginning with a track called A Lot of Feelings, No Solutions. Yes. Let's listen to that.

2:47Why was this the album opener? It goes back to me having writer's block in LA in October 2024, when Ludwig, who is my main producer, I've done most of my music with, we were spending a month in LA to start the next album. And usually when me and him get together, we always get something that we love. We always find the core, at least the start of it, the seed. And we spent a month together and we got nothing. I was really taking him for quite the runaround. I was just like,

3:20no, not this. I'm not feeling this. You know what? I have a new idea. And he was just like, okay, like trying to, you know, be there with me on my journey. But after a month, it was like, I don't like any of the songs. He's like, no, I kind of mean either. Like, I don't know what we were doing, but this isn't it. And it was kind of like, okay, let's just take a break. Like go live your life, do other things, like write for other people, like just get out of your own head for a while. And then when you feel like you have something to say, come back to me kind of thing. And so I did that. I came back to him and I was like, listen, let's go to the little sort of fishing village where I would spend all my

3:51summers as a kid in the off season, where it's completely empty, no people around. And we'll just lock in for another month and like really go for it there and see what happens. And if I don't come, if we don't come out with anything after that, maybe I'll just need to stop music altogether. That's how dramatic I was feeling about it. And we do that. And on like one of the first nights, we're just like, really, we're getting really drunk and really kind of like, you know, it's like 4am, we're like working and we're trying to figure out the song and we're kind of arguing, like we do a lot when we're making music. There's a lot of like intense feelings and a lot of like back and forth. And I think

4:25I was trying to like give him some kind of like feedback on the track and I just couldn't, I was like, I don't know, I just have a lot of feelings, but I have no solutions. And I just said it like that. And it was such a like, this is just explaining me in this album and where I'm at in life at the moment. So well, so yeah, it's just like, it's the catalyst of it all, I guess. Well, before we move on, we should pause and talk about the album title for a second. Because it's intriguing. You know, I love Estrus. Where does that come from? How does it embody this record?

4:56So Estrus means like, it's like the biological word for female animal in heat. And it kind of, I think the universe provided that word for me because I've never heard it before. The album feels feral, but it's vulnerable and it's primal, but it's also like has this like very intimate moments of like introverted self-reflection. Like I just, how do I, where is that one word? Like that's too many words. I can't call the album that. And so, and I have these books in my studio that I sometimes flip through and I'm like just looking for inspiration

5:29or lyric inspiration. And one of them is about like, it's just called like feline and just about cat, just different kinds of cats. And there is this whole section where it just says, uh, like when a feline creature, like, uh, or female mammals are in Estrus. And I was like, and then it said in heat, like as in like parentheses. And I was like, Oh wait, but like, that's me. And the description that they, uh, below it was very, it was yes. Like, you know, you're like, you're ready to procreate. They're kind of like hunting for it, but there's

6:00also a lot of contradicting emotions. It can be stressful and you can have anxiety. And it's like all these kinds of like, um, contradicting emotions that I feel are just like bubbling in, in me at the moment. And so, uh, I just felt like that word was given to me and I was like, this needs to be the title. So after no solutions, we move to your single, right?

Building the single I'm Your Girl

6:20I'm your girl. Let's listen to a bit of that. I'm your girl, right? Love me hard. It's not my first time. I'm your girl, right? Heart still aches. You want to hurt mine. I like your teeth. Cool what you eat. All right. There's so many like striking contrasts in this track. Like we just listened

6:56to the verse pre-chorus chorus. And what do we hear? Uh, punishing sawtooth synths that feel like they're almost industrial. Uh, this house piano, right? That feels out of Detroit in the 1980s. And then a chorus, which is like this banging dance song, but also has these sirens in the background, which almost feel like they're sounding an alarm bell or something. Uh, I mean, how, how did this track come together with all these different elements

7:28like that? So me and Ludwig were kind of like, we want to do something that feels, I want the energy to be like, I'm on the hunt. And so he instantly was like, got the kind of alarm siren going. Wow. And then we had this thought of like, okay, I want it to feel like it's a indie boy band, but that's been remixed by a house producer. That was kind of the sort of sonic landscape we were playing with. And the house piano came in as like, we were like struggling with that part for so long. Like what were you like, when it comes to the pre-chorus, it just doesn't

7:59hit right. Oh, what's happening? Like, what are we going to do? And then I think we went through like, I don't even know how many synths or arpeggios and like bass lines and guitars just like through, like, it was maybe like a, you know, a two, two day journey of trying to find the right sound for that moment. And then Ludwig just as a joke, just like, maybe it's just this fucking thing, you know, and then he just throws on this house piano and I'm like, yes, yes. And so, and I think the, the sort of writing part of it, the sort of having that kind of almost like animalistic hunger, but then it's combined with these like

8:34very, like, very vulnerable, almost like borderline desperate, like lyrics in the chorus where it's like, I'm your girl, right? It's almost that like, I see that Notting Hill scene in front of me with like Hugh Grant and it's like, I'm just a boy. Oh no, Julia Roberts, I'm just a girl asking a boy to love her. Like that kind of sort of, which is not really my, the, like, I don't like to admit to that part of my personality. It's like, you know, the more, the more needy part. Um, so I think it's like, I love that kind of contrast in a song, you know, it really is in many ways fulfilling the entire album title, right? Like we have

9:05these, the, the lyrically, the sort of romanticizing these teeth is just like really creepy, honestly. Yeah. And they're like the perfume and the attraction that's happening. And then the, so there's, you can see both, um, this sort of this, this feeling of attraction, but also uncertainty happening at the same time. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was, I think that was kind of when it's been so long since I put out a solo record, uh, I feel like I needed, I wanted the first song to really show like, this is where the journey is going. And that

9:36is always kind of tricky to do. It's like, and it's hard to, sometimes you kind of, you, you end up in a place where you feel like you have to say so much in the first song. Like it has to be some kind of really strong message and you kind of go a bit overboard with it. And I think with this, I was like, no, I can still keep it small. I can keep it to attraction, but describe it in the way that it's a little bit sickening because it's just fun. Well, I feel like so much of your music is animated by that contrast and that duality of being like really put together, really in control and then being totally unhinged or something.

10:13And, and I, there were, there are lines in this song that actually took me back to like some of your earliest work. Uh, like your breakout song habits started with a couplet that is unforgettable to me. I eat my dinner in my bathtub and then I go to sex clubs, chef's kiss. Thank you. And on this track you sing all horses win for you. We fuck all night on Ritalin. And I was like, wow, 12 years later, Tuva is still going, but, but, but I, but I do really want to ask like what, I mean, how do you think of your

10:47journey as a songwriter in that respect? Like you're still exploring similar themes, but there's also like all these new influences and sound. So. Yeah. It's funny because sometimes I'm like, have I really just stay the same in 12, like, have I not changed at all in 12 years? Have I not evolved? I also just can't deny who I am. I could try to, you know, come at it from a different angle and, and sing about things that aren't my life. But then it's like, no, my whole, the whole way of me creating is me just writing kind of in like a journal way, like in a diary way where it's just like, here's my blunt thoughts

11:22and feelings and desires on paper. And, um, there you go. And like, it's unfiltered and it's raw and all that. And I think if I tried to start to like, uh, change that about my writing, I would lose the joy, I think. So I'm just like, I'm still out here just having sex and doing drugs, I guess.

Collaborating with Stromae on Des Fleurs

11:43We'll get, we'll get, we'll get to more of that. But first we need to talk about a song called Des Fleurs, which is a collaboration with Belgian multi-hyphenate artist Stromae. Yes. Uh, his song, Allure en Danse is maybe one of the greatest tracks of the 21st century. A hundred percent of it.

12:15He's a huge artist, but he's also kind of reclusive, like doesn't do a lot of press, doesn't make a lot of music, not a lot of appearances. He stays a creature of mystery and like the most, like, uh, with so much integrity. Yeah. I just, I mean, I'm such a fan. So how did you, well, first of all, how did you decide like he's the person for this track and then how did you actually get him to be on it? To be like, so I knew Allure en Danse, but I didn't know more about him. Um, and I kind of just randomly walked past the tent that he was playing at Coachella in 2015. And I was

12:48like, what is going on in there? Why is everyone dancing and spilling out the tent? And it's like, I'm like, is he singing in French? I'm pretty sure that's not English. And like, I walk in and it's just the energy is so electric and everyone is dancing. No phones up. It's just like, everyone's locked in on what he's doing. And he was, it's one of the best, he's one of the best performers I've ever seen. It was so magical. And I was like, okay, I'm hooked. Like I'm, I'm in. And then I became such a fan of his music and him. And I think I just, I've actually said to, we share the same publicist. So shout out Baker. Um, and,

13:21and, uh, I was like, can you just tell him that I would love to work with him if he ever, uh, wants to. And then cut to, I think it was right after I'd put out, um, Dirt Femme. So like, you know, quite a, quite a while after he, uh, just magically sends, sent me some tracks. He's like, here's some tracks. If you want to, if you want to write some music, do you want to write some melodies to them? And I was like, is this really happening? Like, and I was just so, um, excited. And then, uh, the, the, the flirt track, like the, that, like kind of hypnotic piano and kind of, you know, the sort of waltzy tempo, um, was there.

13:54And I was like, this is so different to anything I've ever written. I need to work on this. And so I was sitting, I was in New Zealand at the time, uh, cause my hubby's from there. And I was looking out over these like black sand beaches at Piha, this, um, uh, beautiful beach. And I had my portable studio with me and I was like, I'm just going to do this now. And I got Charlie, I'll see you in two days. And just close the door. And I went in and I sat there and I wrote this song and I was like, I have no idea how it's going to

14:24feel. You know, I think on the second day I kind of did a more of the vocal production where I did the, like, bring me flowers, the little, it's, I don't actually do that thing. I just chopped up the vocal really, really tightly. And like all the kind of, um, almost like dog barks in the pre-chorus, you know, the, like huffing thing. And I sent it off and was like, we'll see. And then luckily he, he loved it. And then, um, and then, you know, it's kind of like,

15:07you know, the song was done, but that took some time. And then it's kind of just sitting there because it was not a good time for either of us to put anything out. And then I was working on this record and I was like, Hey, what do you think? Is it time? Could I put on my album? And, and he was like, yep, let's do it. Let me do a verse and let's go. And yeah, it was, we did it remotely, but it was so, I'm just, it's a very cool feeling when someone you respect so much creatively is like down to work with you. It's a very special, special feeling. I feel like it's another song where we just get all kinds of contrasts, right? On the one

15:39hand, there's all this gentle piano and then glitched out vocals. You're asking for, you're asking for flowers, but also for sweat. Right. I think it's really hard for us to imagine that you would write a song that's like, everything's perfect. I'm in love. Things are sweet. Um, where do you feel like, where does that instinct of writing in contrast come from for you? I think because I, I guess it's this need to show, cause I feel like no matter how I'm doing, I think that it comes back to this thing of like, there's that feeling like everyone's

16:13always chasing full happiness, but that doesn't exist. Like you can't, it's like, Wait, wait, hold on.

16:19Spoiler alert. No, but I feel like there's not, it's not possible to like, it's always that feeling. There's always going to be a balance, you know, and, and like everything, uh, everything needs balance where there's good, there's good, where there's light, there's darkness, where there's good, there's bad, all that. I really believe that. So I think sometimes in, um, certain situations we push really hard to try to be just one thing. And I think that's where really, uh, can drive you crazy. And so I think in my music, it's so important that I get to like, almost like treat the song as a human being, like show all the nuances and

16:51all the gray areas and like, yes, I'm this, but I'm also a little bit this. And that kind of really is cathartic for me to like, yeah, to show all the sides in, in the song. Yeah. Some people have, uh, applied this term to a larger phenomenon of music, like trash pop, Charlie XCX, Slater, uh, Kesha loosely defined the idea of rebelling against traditional notions of femininity, pursuing pleasure, embracing imperfection. I think a lot of people will

17:23see you as like an originator of this sound. Does that label resonate with you? Yes, it really does. Like when I, when I first put out habits, you know, this, the, the sort of the questions that I would get were kind of like, why would you want to present yourself in this way? That was a very like common question that I would get. Like, why would you ever as a woman, as a young woman who's pretty, why would you ever want to like put yourself like and show yourself like this? Like, you know, in the video, I'm like, you know, crying and puking and making out with people and being all, you know, a hot mess, eating fries. That

17:54was a big thing, you know, in 2014. And to me, I was like, why? Like, I'm bold. This is just me. I'm not, I didn't have a good answer to it then really. I was like, well, it's just me. I don't know. I'm not perfect. What can I say? Kind of that. And I think that narrative has changed so much over time that I haven't really changed my way of expressing myself, but all of a sudden I was like a feminist gay icon and I was like, love it. And I'm, I'm just still me. And it's like, for some reason it's resonating with the people that get me. And so, yeah, but I

18:27feel like I, I, I embrace the, the trash pop. Yeah. Brand for sure.

Writing the horny suite of songs

18:32I feel like one of the places we really get a sense of that is in this trio of songs, the horny suite of songs, DNH, F-A-M-T and I'm the cake. The horny trilogy. Yes, I love that. I feel like we should listen to. I kind of need to make that a t-shirt. It's great. Good merch. Yeah. Yeah. Can we listen to. Yeah. And we'll explain what each of those acronyms stands for as we get to them. We'll start with DNH. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's go for it. You're drunk and horny in the crowd. You need attention. Let your tears come down. You're

19:07crying hard to kick us out. You're still my best friend when you ruin my night. I promise I love you and this isn't an attack. At the end of the night, I'm the one holding your hair back.

19:26Wow. Oh my gosh. It's so fun. I love how unrestrained it is as it needs to be. Like the synthesizers like at the beginning and of the chorus are unfiltered and just like really dirty. They almost sound like they're talking. Yeah. And then your lyric is so just sort of spoken. Right. It feels like. It's almost yelly, like a little bit. A little yelly. It was written while drunk a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. What were you invoking in this suite of songs and in DNH, drunk and horny? I don't think we need to explain that. Yeah. So it was kind of,

20:01I think it was like almost like an ode to all my messy girls, you know. And, you know, my friend group is a big mix of just women who sometimes really have it together and they have real jobs, but they get messy. And it's just like, and so many of them have asked me like, who's this song about? And they all think it's about someone else. And I'm like, it's about all of you. You're all misbehaving. And I just, and it kind of is like, it sounds kind of, you know, angry and stuff, but I think it's with so much love. You know, it's like, you said my best friend, though you ruined my night. It's kind of like, it's like, I'm still

20:35here for you. You know? Yeah. It's for my messy girls. Yeah.

20:41Support for the show comes from Sonos. Our relationship to sound, whether listening to music or watching a movie, is deeply personal. Everyone has different needs, different spaces, different ways they want to connect with whatever they're listening to. That's why Sonos has designed an entire range of speakers and headphones to work together in harmony. So you can customize a sound system for your life. From speakers to soundbars, to subwoofers, to headphones, the whole Sonos system works together to create a seamless listening experience.

21:16My family has been using a Sonos system for years. We have the Sonos Ultra soundbar that we use connected to our TV. So all the shows and movies we watch have amazing sound quality. And we use the Sonos Play speakers for music around the house. We can control exactly what you hear in different rooms. It's amazing fidelity. And they're kind of these small, sleek speakers that you can just kind

21:47fit anywhere. It's also really easy to connect Sonos to any music player and just play music with the press of a button. I even have my turntable hooked up to my Sonos system so we can listen to records. It's so seamless and easy. And most importantly, the sound quality is incredible. So visit Sonos.com and build your system. Sonos. Love the sound. Feel the system. At T-Mobile, the new iPhone 18 Pro is here with a big leap in battery life. And you can get it on

22:24us. With so many reasons to choose T-Mobile, you'll want to talk about it. At T-Mobile, you can get iPhone 18 Pro on them. Pass it on. My friend said you can get it on T-Mobile. Pass it on. They got the best network with the fastest speeds. Hey, Mickey, pass it on. iPhone 18 Pro has the most advanced iPhone camera ever. Pass it on. I heard it, T-Mobile. You can get it on them. Pass it on. For a limited time at T-Mobile, get the amazing iPhone 18 Pro on us.

22:57Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What

23:30is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.

23:57You referenced some of the influences on this album, being Swedish groups like Robin and The Knife. And when we heard this track, we were like, this feels like a little bit of a Robin tribute in some ways. Is that, are we off the mark there? No, no, for sure. I would say both, both Robin and The Knife, like both heavily inspired the song. I think, you know, there's that, there's that line in, um, Robin's song, Be Mine. Like, it's a good thing tears doesn't show in the pouring rain. And I'm just like that for some reason that it's like, I'm seeing this, you know, sad drunk girl outside the

24:33club, like, oh, and I kind of that, for some reason, that line has just always stayed with me. And so that it's kind of like, there's almost me dragging that girl home, like, come on. Let's get out of here. Let's go home and eat burgers. Yeah. We continue the horny trilogy with a track called F.A.M.T. Will you explain the meaning of that one? Fuck Away My Tears. Thank you. Let's, let's listen. Yeah. So some people have complained

25:28that pop music isn't horny enough anymore. I feel like you're on a quest to, uh, rectify that. Yes. How do you get in that mindset though, when you're writing lyrics? Like what is your process to unlock that, that part of yourself, I guess? Maybe because I'm such a physical person, it's just always present for me to pull from that as inspiration, you know? And it's like, I'm, my love language is very physical. And I wrote this song with, um, Luca, Klo, Silvira, Anderfjad, and Tove Burman, who are the other, like,

25:58writers at MXM. We call ourselves FemXM. Uh, and, uh, we, it was just like this, you know, when it's like, we're, we're kind of sitting together and we're all just like, you know, this feeling when, and, you know, we're kind of all going, going through this. That also like edges on the inspiration when you're like talking about, um, talking about the moment is like always really helps, you know, but I think it's just always present for me. I don't know. Sounds maybe intense, but yeah. I want, I want to leave something, uh, to be desired for the listener. So I think maybe go and listen to the rest of the trilogy with I'm the cake. Cause I really want to go into

26:30your collaborators who you, who you spoke about as well. I mean, there's always this wonderful mystery about the Swedish pop scene. And something that I noticed as I research it though, is that there seems to be not just a lot of collaboration, but a lot of mentorship as well. Like you can see if you just look at credits, it's like so-and-so worked with so-and-so, and then they took on a new mentor and there's this whole like sort of pyramid of people that have made so much of the great pop music of the last many decades. And I'm curious about how do you go about building these collaborations and mentorships? Is that a big part of working in the MXM world?

27:00I mean, I will say I feel so lucky that they, um, cause they, they kind of, I was signed to one of chapel as a songwriter. And then I got asked like, would you want to join this kind of, um, collect writer collective called Wolf Cousins, where it was, I was the only girl at the time was me and eight other producers. And then it was very much like, well, we want you to just like work on your craft. We'll bring you into big rooms when we feel like you're ready. We'll just like do this as a, yeah, as a mentorship thing. And I was like, please, is this the first time someone's

27:31believed in me since, since high school? Can we just like, I want to do this so badly. And it was a really, really special thing to get to have that, but you know, yeah. All right. Let's listen to some more music, but before we do, I just want to make sure everyone caught the title of that last song that we didn't talk about. What was it called? I'm the cake. I'm the cake. I'm the cake. Good. The Warnie trilogy. Yes. You went a little too quickly through it. And I just, because people are going to hear that title and they're going to be like, okay, I need to hear that. Uh, but let's,

Crafting the track Are We On A Break

28:00let's move on to, uh, the track. Are we on a break? Baby, it's been a minute. Maybe it's wrong. I texted. Are we on a break? Sorry you hit your limit.

28:17Tell me you didn't mean it. Are we on a break? I guess I wouldn't mind. A few good months to fuck around. But I just can't deny that if I'm with some other guy or if I'm with a girl, you're still the one on my mind all the time. Wow. It makes me think of like, do you know the auditory illusion, the shepherd tone? No. This music thing where it sounds like a note is ever ascending? Yes. Always

28:49and always and always. What was it called? The shepherd tone. The shepherd tone. It's like an avant-garde minimalist composer or technique. But this song feels like it's just building and building and building. Like it feels like it's just growing and growing and growing every single moment. You really captured what we were all trying to make happen with both the writing and production, like in the room. Like it needs to constantly feel like it's building towards some kind of some kind of final explosion, you know, throughout the whole whole song. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because that means we did it. Yeah. That's the energy we're trying to harness. It's one of those

29:23songs that is so it's so plain spoken and just like it feels totally natural. And yet one of the things I hear in this is this like incredible attention to detail about how you sing each syllable. Yeah. Like every syllable, every little motif is its own little hook. How do you how do you think about that as you're building melody and lyric? I think actually this one took this one took a long time to get right. Like I think I've recorded it in four different keys because it was that thing. It was like there's one really belting the whole chorus, but then we lost some of the nerve and then we tried it really low. And then it because it felt like kind of feels like you're mumbling it to

29:56yourself or you're texting it. And that felt kind of beautiful. But then you lost the like desperation. So I think we tried so many different keys until we found this sweet spot. And then but then, you know, the baseline didn't end up working out. So I had to change that it was so it's been so much work with the song. But because of I think it really matters where I go to falsetto and where I sing full voice because it adds to either do I want to sound vulnerable or do I want to sound desperate? What's my like, do I want to sound like I'm like frustrated or do I want to sound

30:27like I'm asking it to myself? Like and so that took a long time to figure out those kind of that layering of especially the hook, like the chorus where that just all those like little stages of like how how how do I walk up this stair, so to speak? Well, I like hearing that behind the scenes of how, you know, trying to get the right key, the right feeling, because I feel like it comes back to this theme that's emerging of, you know, the music might talk about being desperate or being, you know, unhinged or drunk, but the actual process of making it is not that it's like you're sober and you're like stressing

31:03and you're sweating. Yeah, I'm like, I got to get this right. There's sure there's a few songs from like, you know, beer in hand and just like singing like and then just like, oh, use that take. It's so it's just that's the only one that exists and it needs to be that one. But most of it is like, yeah, let's get back in. Let's rework it. What can we improve? Like, give it more of this tone. Like there's yeah, there's way more layers. It takes a lot of that. Yeah, it takes a lot of work to sound like you're out of control. Exactly. You have to be really in control. You have to be really in control to sound out of control.

Channeling electro clash on Idiot

31:32There's a song as we get towards the bottom of the record. Speaking of being a little out of control, it's called Idiot. You're bringing a sort of Brooklyn Electro Clash vibe into it, getting hints of LCD sound systems, dance yourself clean. What were you why were you wanting to bring

32:04that sound into the record? I kind of wanted something that felt electronic, but really small, like an intimate ballad. And so dance self clean is like one of my favorite tracks. And so that was we had that kind of on loop for a little bit. And then we were like, let's just make something in this world where this feels like we have this kind of like, it's like a sad bass, you know, it's like, it's just kind of like a like you're sitting there like a little bit disappointed, you know. And so again, like and then having that sort of like crescendo, it's like, you know, the song is about kind of me being just frustrated with myself to not let

32:38negative thoughts go. And it kind of is like, and then I'm doing that by giving it more negative thoughts to myself. So they're like, idiot outro, you know, which just keeps going off as kind of that, that building up to the final climax of like, you know, self hate, I guess it sounds so dark. But I think it's, that's the thing, like the song doesn't feel the song has a sense of humor in it still, I think, even though so vulnerable. It was kind of part of that sort of the indie dance world that I wanted to sort of exist in. You have to have a sense of humor to write a chorus that is just one word over and over again.

33:19Idiot. How did that decision come to be? I basically just I'm like, how do I, I want to find a way to tell myself to like, stop being so dumb and mean to yourself. And then it's just, it's just the word that kind of came out. What it does when I hear a song like Idiot is it tells me, it gives me social permission to be like, it's okay to feel like an idiot. I love that. And so rather than like, sometimes the music isn't the thing that matches you, but it's the compliment to who you are. And I think that's why I love music like this so much. It lets me feel a little more messy than I otherwise allow myself to be.

33:50Yeah, you can have a moment of letting out sides that you usually stay in control of or that you kind of keep to yourself. Exactly. I love that. I love that. That's what I want. That's like, I think every artist's dream is to have the music you make, make people feel free to be themselves. And that's like the goal, you know, stretches my emotional boundaries. Great. I love that. This is kind of meta about the album, but you know, when I'm looking at the track list, I noticed that there's only two songs that are longer than three minutes. And those are just three minutes and 14 seconds.

34:20It's too short. No, no, no. I could not disagree more. I love a short song. Oh, you do? Okay, great. Yeah, I'm always bothering Charlie about this. I'm like, every movie should be 90 minutes. I agree with that. Every pop song should be two and a half minutes. You only read novellas. And every book should be 200 pages or less. Like, I feel very strongly about this. And there's, I don't know, sometimes I have gripes when I feel like a song is just like, kind of bloated. Like, I like lean and mean. But I'm curious from your perspective, like, how do you know how, like,

34:57you say what you need to say, and then you know the song is over. Like, what is that? Me and Ludwig kind of had that same feeling. We're like, why are they all like 2.30? Like, what happened? Like, because it feels like a full song. Like you said, I said everything I needed to say, um, I, my feeling is just that the song is done. And I don't know if it's because, you know, how I'm just, uh, you know, um, impacted by what's going on around me without really realizing. And so you're listening to shorter songs, so you're making shorter songs. Like, it could be that. But I think with this, maybe because the song kind of feels like it's these, um, erratic,

35:31intense, intense, like, train of thoughts, just like quick, like bursts of emotion. It kind of fit that they are shorter. It's kind of like a bomb dropping in every corner like that. I love that. And so I think it just felt right. Yeah. But I've had, I've seen some comments like, the album's only 30 minutes by fans. I'm like, listen one more time. Perfect amount of time. I totally agree.

Closing the album with Source of Life

35:54Yeah. And we, we end with a short song, Source of Life. You said it was one of the last things that you worked on as well. So an important thing, you know, it's the first and the last song and the single, like that's basically the whole, not of this album. Like if you have those three things though, Ooh. Yeah, I agree. And, um, yeah, this song, I feel like captures so many themes just in this incredible economy of space. I feel like we should take a listen. Oh my God. Wait, wait. So we have to pause it there. Feral, fragile, numb, ecstatic, sad, euphoric,

36:46catatonic, horny, repulsed, proud, shameful, good, demonic contradictions. The entirety of human experience. Yes, it is the full human experience. Yeah. It's, it's like summarizing some, like what we've just heard over the course of all these preceding tracks. Was that conscious or did that just sort of happen? It was conscious in that I had, when I was kind of starting to, you know, when I was after my writer's block and I was sitting the first, even though we didn't write this song until the very end, like the first few nights at, in South of Sweden where we did most of the album, when we were

37:20like, you know, back in, in March, 2025, trying to like get this going. I was like, what is it that I'm feeling? Like what is going on inside me? It's so, it's so conflicting and intense. And I just wrote down all these words. And then I just, I kind of have had them in my lyric book. And then when we, you know, had most of the album, got back in just to like see what else we had, I was like flip to the page and I was like, wait, I need to just put this in the song somehow. And then I was just kind of looking for the melody to this baseline. And then it just happened. It was like, you know,

37:50perfectly matched in that beautiful way that it does sometimes. It's quite poetic. I love when an economy of words can paint this huge picture, which is happening here. And yet I feel like we've gone through this whole experience of, as you put it, like sudden explosions, like really intense energy in these little songs. I feel like this song is kind of reaching for some peace and stability in the chorus a bit. It's kind of a reflective one. Like it really does give like a, it's kind of zooming out a little bit on the whole. It's like, you feel like it's the end of the movie, you know? And

38:21it's like, you can like, you look back at everything that happened, you're like, wow, okay. What's next? You know? And there's that wordless vocal.

38:37So it feels like a more sort of, what's the right, tender moment that we've heard on this album up till this point or like more sort of innocent or something? It's more mature almost like, yeah, to me it feels like it's like a, there's a mature calmness in it, but it's like, or maybe that's like the whole song feels kind of like mature in the reflective way, but that, yeah, but that's like a, it's like an innocent, like, oh, everything's good kind of sort of a melody. Very like a nursery rhymey sort of classic

39:08Swedish, I would say. Well, it's a very fitting way to end an album that is full of contradictions. And I've enjoyed so much hearing about your process because these songs, which feel like this unhinged energy, there's so much connective tissue to pull this whole thing together, which feels fully, fully realized. Thank you. That means a lot to me. That makes me really happy. And you've given us some new language to use. Estrus, you know? Estrus, yeah. Listen to Estrus when you're a DNH and need to FAMT. How about that?

39:43Love it. How about that? Love it. Thank you so much for chatting with us. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Support for the show comes from Sonos. A great sound system starts with precision engineering, but it also needs a big picture

40:14approach. One that starts by thinking about how a system can integrate into your life and stir your emotions. That's the approach that Sonos takes. How can your music follow you effortlessly through your home? How can you create an experience in your living room that feels like you're sitting in a theater and loses nothing when you switch to headphones? Sonos answers these questions and more. Visit Sonos.com and build your system. Sonos. Love the sound. Feel the system.

40:50This episode is brought to you by Jira by Atlassian. Jira isn't just for tracking work anymore. It's how dev teams stay in control when AI agents are executing on the work. Assign to your favorite agent and the agent gets full context from across your stack right away. A pull requests surfaces when it's ready. You stay in the loop and out of the weeds. See how teams are shipping with agents at jira.dev. That's J-I-R-A dot D-E-V.