Lizzy McAlpine summons Nick Drake & Joni Mitchell

Introducing the new album Angel

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0:40Welcome to Spushed on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. I'm so overjoyed to be here with you all, these wonderful students here at Berkeley, and most of all with Lizzie McAlpine, Mason Stoops, Taylor Mackle. Thank you for being with us. Yay. It is a really wonderful day. We are about a week out from you releasing your fourth album, Angel.

1:04I've had the privilege of spending the last week living in it. It's been so wonderful. It has been in my ears everywhere I've been in the city. And so I'm so excited to get to share about it today. So we're going to talk about the process of making it, which we've been through,

Writing Anybody's Fool on July 4th

1:18and highlight a bunch of tracks from the album. I want to begin with the song, Anybody's Fool. Let me take a listen.

1:27Bombs overhead, streamers of light, driving your street, looking for life, looking for you, as you walk to your car. I thought it'd feel different, but it still felt hard.

1:51Oh, wow. It's some very powerful imagery to begin. We've got bombs overhead. Would you mind setting the scene for us? Where are we? What's going on? I wrote this song on the 4th of July. Yeah. So that's fireworks. Okay. I was hoping it was fireworks. Yes, yes. Are we like in New York City looking over the sky? No, I was in LA. I was in my house. I had just gone to like a 4th of July party and it was like high up in the hills. And I was just thinking about my ex and how, you know, if we were still together, we probably would have been hanging out right now. And that was making

2:24me sad. And then I went home and I wrote this song. And in the original voice memo, you can hear the fireworks in the background. Oh, really? Yeah, it's pretty cool. The holidays are the worst time to spend alone. Yeah, it was tough. There's sort of this like tongue twister of desire that goes on in the chorus here. Let's take a listen to it. Yeah. I know this is right. And I know that it's sad. I want you to want me again like that. I like the way it feels to not be anybody's fool.

3:02I know this is right. But it's hard to explain. Want you to want me to want to change. What is it to not be anybody's fool? I knew that this that breakup was correct for me and my life journey. And at the same time, it was really sad. Even through the sadness, it felt like I was finally like free. I was finding my independence again.

3:36A lot of themes of like freedom and how it feels to be free that come all throughout the

Recording amidst the California fires

3:42album.

Recording amidst the California fires

3:43Yeah. And this song specifically, we started the album process in January of 2025. And we were going to make the whole record in the studio that Mason was building in his backyard in Altadena, California. And we were in there for a day and a half. And then the fires happened. So we had to leave. And this song we recorded there during that day and a half. And it's

4:13so... I haven't listened to this recorded version of the song in a minute because we've been playing it live for these little shows that we've been doing. And we're playing it like kind of almost like how it would have been if we had actually produced it out. But this recorded version is just the demo that we made that day. Yeah. It was unfinished. Literally, you can hear like the wind knocking against the garage door. It's really crazy. I mean, we can hear it in the opening. I mean, I love how this song begins. This is the second

4:45song on the record, I believe. And we can hear ambience and rustling at the very beginning. Yeah. The fire's about to start. Like the wind was crazy that day. Hey, let's listen to it.

5:11So crazy. And I just did one vocal pass. And we were like, yeah, we'll come back to this later. Yeah, we thought we'd have more time. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you all went through that. Yeah, me too. It was crazy. It was not ideal. The last thing I grabbed out of the studio, the neighbor's house was on fire and the one across the street was on fire. And the firemen that were there, they basically told me, my brother, my dad who were there to grab what we could. Like you guys

5:43have like two minutes. I had to Sophie's Choice some guitars, which is pretty awkward going back and seeing some of them because they know now. And it's like, you can't really take that back, you know? The relationship's different. Do you name your guitars? No, thank God. Because that would be, yeah. Not anymore. Yeah. I mean, in so many ways, it's an amazing thing that happened to the record, not the fire itself, but what we got from it, the people we met

6:15because of it, the engineers that we work with now who are on tour with us, we wouldn't have met. The album wouldn't have been the same because the album initially was going to be, I had a little Fostex tape machine that I loved and a $500 Mackie board that me and Jesse had hot rodded or mostly Jesse and I watched him. And the record was going to be so cool because it was just going to be the three of us in that little studio, just really leaning into Lizzie's incredible guitar playing

6:46and Taylor's incredible piano playing and my incredible pushing the record button on the Fostex. And that was going to be the record. And that was a really stressful day. Lizzie and I got into a big argument. And, you know, the only reason that kick drum that's going there throughout was just so that there'd be tempo for us to play to on the tape machine because you can't, there's no click to turn on in the Pro Tools. Are we hearing like a tape machine begin it or something? Yeah. All this was to say the last thing I grabbed just out of like panic. I was so ready

7:18to like have all my friends like sign their names and get to know this new space. And then it was like, here we are kind of saying goodbye to it. But the last thing I was like, I got to have something to take from this place. And the song was that. So I grabbed the tape reel. And we tried when we were back in the studio, we thought, okay, we should finish it. We should put like double Lizzie's vocal or, you know, whatever it would need. And everything we tried, it was like a ghost or something. We just couldn't make anything stick that made the song better. It's really special.

7:51It's hard to listen to, but it's really special in its bareness and its intensity and like the lyrics and the storytelling that happens to go along with it. That's part of why I think we picked it in that moment because there's no soundproofing and the shaking and the wind. We'd started another song, which was Lighten the Painting. And it wasn't working. So it was like, okay, we got to play into this theme of these winds and the chaos and the anxiety and like anybody's fool seemed like the right song for it. So it's amazing to have that captured. I'm really grateful that we have it.

8:27And I'm grateful for everything that came from it. Now, would have been cool for that not to have happened. That would have been really a better story in a lot of ways. But the album is defined by what we couldn't have done because of what, you know, we couldn't have controlled. So it's pretty special in that way. It's much bigger and profound and meaningful than I had assumed. It's heavy and I appreciate you sharing about it because obviously I can't imagine having to listen to that day over and over again. I mean, I remember that day. I wasn't in Los Angeles, but my friends were sending me pictures of that day.

8:58I remember those winds. When I had heard those sounds, I was like, oh, this is really interesting. You all like decided to leave these like little artifacts in there. But it is its own painting that you've created. I want to talk about the three of you. You all worked together on the last record, Older and Wiser. Clearly something magical happened in that record. You've talked about it at length about how that album took a minute to find itself. There was a lot of stripping it down to its most raw form is my understanding. And you all found something as a group. You've all decided

9:31to continue together for this album, Angel. Could you speak to why you wanted to keep this special trio and what that contributed in this new album?

Reuniting the core band from Older

9:41When I was making Older, I first, I started it with a completely different like production team and we got like almost done, I would say. And then I just felt like something was missing and I wasn't really sure what it was. And so I made the decision to kind of find something else and find someone else to make it with and kind of redo it. I just knew that it wasn't right. I didn't really know what I wanted. And then I went to the Ryan Beatty show at the Ford in LA and Mason

10:12and Taylor and the rest of the band was playing with him. And I was just blown away. I was like, wow, these musicians are incredible. I need them. Like, I need these people. I spent the whole concert just like thinking. I was like, how can I get them to play on my record? Like, oh my God. Really, really easily. I mean, it was like somehow we were all available at the same time and everyone was like so down and we made Older in like two weeks. Which is crazy. But I guess we were very much like of the vibe of like, we're going to make

10:48this like a band record. We wanted, we stripped it down. We kept some of the stuff that I did with the original producers, but for the most part, we started over and found something that was so, I felt like it was so human and it felt like so real. And that's, I think what I had been missing about the first version. And so when we were starting to think about this album, it was just very clear that like we would make it together again. And we kind of just wanted to start with

11:20the three of us and, and approach this record differently because the songs, the songs felt different. The first try where we wanted it to be on tape and stripped down, the universe said, nope. So we, when I got back from doing Broadway in New York, we just started with the three of us and added people when we needed, but we really wanted to keep it like the core of, of us. Cause I feel like we found something really special. Taylor, I want to hear from you and what are some of the sounds you feel like have, um, from that

11:51experience on the third album coming to the fourth album, what has progressed? What is, what feels fresh and interesting happening this time around? I mean, it's gotta be Lizzie's writing, right? Like it's changed so much and, and getting to know each other over the last few years and seeing all of us grow as individual artists and players and, and writers. But Lizzie and I, like we were listening to a lot of Joni Mitchell and a lot of James Taylor and, and just a lot of artists that, you know, kind of looking back

12:21at all the great composers that have come before. And, and Lizzie just like took to it, like the Bible. She was just like, all right, let's learn every Joni tuning ever. And, and then she would learn these songs and then write her own from some of those similar shapes and just send it to the group chat. And we'd be like, dang, there's another one, you know? Yeah. So I think just the, the level of, of songwriting has just been so inspiring. And we got, I feel like when we worked on the Deluxe for Older, we got to see like what we could do with completely

12:56kind of fresh songs, right? But this was just a whole other echelon for us to kind of bring in our individual voices as players and, and producers. We just had so much fun kind of sharing what came naturally and like having the trust with one another because we knew each other so well to just lean into what we do naturally. And like you're saying, there was a beautiful natural chemistry. And I feel like this record is a good example of it. Of the many songs that might capture that feeling, you know, you, you talked about in

13:27the album release that you were inspired by the sort of seventies Laurel Canyon scene,

A car wash and a new pair of pants

13:32Joni, et cetera. I feel like we can really hear that on the song, a car wash in a new pair of pants. So it's always sounds so good. That sounds so good.

13:46Blinded by the fame and glory, wanted to love me for what I gave to you. Hold it in your hands, see if you can take it, get a car wash and a new pair of pants. Oh, I love the specificity of these lyrics. Can you tell me a little bit about this metaphor? It's not really a metaphor.

14:11It's just my real life. I wrote this song about just feeling like someone only wanting to be close to you because of what you can give to them. And I wrote, I wrote this song about my, my ex and I just felt like every time we were like going to an event or something for me and he was going to come with me, be my plus one. He was like, Oh, I have to like get it. I have to like get a new pair of pants. Like I, I need to get a car wash. Like I can't show up like that. And I'm like, but but also like, I don't care. It's definitely not a metaphor. It's just like a thing that happened to

14:46me. It's been interesting to write more about like my relationship to fame. Um, because it's weird and meeting people, sometimes it's very easy to tell when they only like want to be close to you because of like who you are. And so that was interesting to, to write about those.

15:12Thank you everyone for being here. Um, let's, let's, let's hear a little bit more of that. Yeah. You wanted the people to notice you, you wanted my name to be yours, but you hate that they're all saying something. Now that you are not mine anymore. You wanted the lights and the parties. You wanted my life to be yours. So she is the woman you needed. Now that I am not you anymore.

15:52What are some of the lessons about having to be in the limelight that you've taken from this song? I feel like I've just gotten better at being able to tell when someone is being genuine and when someone isn't. But I feel like sometimes people, people slip through the cracks. It's sometimes it's hard to tell and try to trust my gut with that kind of stuff. Also, I did take it as a metaphor only because I came back. I've been away from the city for a minute. My car was very dirty and I was like, should I get a car wash? I'm like, I don't have time. I hadn't listened to the song yet. And I

16:23literally did. I was like, I gotta go teach. I should like go get some new pants. And I went, I'm not joking. And I like, and I, and I went and I could not find a pair of pants that fit. And so I'm really glad I did not get that glow up because now I think I would feel very uncomfortable sitting here. You're wearing new pants. Well, these are some good old ones. Wow. That's so funny. But let's talk about the sound. I mean, I love this sound. It reminds me certainly of the world of Joanie. It reminds me of a little bit of the, um, uh, the album brighter later by Nick Drake. I love these sounds. Why did you want to evoke this, this, this place in this, this time?

16:57It wasn't really like a conscious thing. I think I was just listening to that a lot and it was seeping into my writing. I think that's just like what happens. I am so inspired by something that I listened to and then it just kind of creeps in to my writing. This song specifically though, I wrote this song and I was listening to a lot of Pink Moon by Nick Drake. Um, but I hadn't really like listened to brighter later yet. And I wrote this song. I showed it to my friend and he was like, Oh, this sounds like a Nick Drake song. And I was like, Oh God, which one? And he played it for me.

17:28And it's called one of these things first. And I was like, Oh, so it's the same key. And the intro chord progression is the same. And I was like, Oh gosh. Cause I'd never heard that song before I wrote it. And so it felt like I like channeled something. It felt like really kind of spiritual, honestly. And then we, we reached out to his estate and my label was like, it's a little too close. And I was like, Oh, okay. So I have two options. I could either change the key, which we couldn't have done at that, at that point, scrapped it or like reached out. So I wrote them a letter

18:04and I was just like, I am so inspired by Nick Drake. He, he, I think he was one of the greats and they allowed us to credit him on that song. Um, so now his name is next to mine, which is so crazy, but it's just like so special. I, cause I, he inspired a lot of, of this record and I was listening to him a lot. So it was really, it was really special. Let's listen to that for just a second. And then, yeah, we, we tried to add, we added some thing that was close to that piano

18:50part at the, in the end of car wash. They had a descending chromatic thing on like a little mini butterfly piano, I think. Oh, that was the butterfly piano. It's like a really tiny piano.

19:05You can kind of hear it.

19:12It's hidden, but Once you get permission, you go all in. It was really, I'm, I feel so honored that like they said yes. And it was just cool to like almost pay homage to him in that way. Um, How does it feel to get to be in that extended universe? Really awesome.

19:34You can add so much meaning into a track by letting it be a part of a larger web of music, acknowledging that all music descends from somewhere else.

The constant practice of songwriting

19:41Yeah. Lizzie too, more than anybody that I've, I've, I've worked with songwriting wise, is you're writing all of the time. So that's a lot quantity wise, but it's also a vehicle for like, I don't know that it's like, it's exhaling. It's like, it's part of your, how you process what's happening in your life. It's part of how you come to terms with things. It's like, it's, it's, I've learned that it actually is like a necessary part of you existing as a person. And so Lizzie's just writing all the time. There's no goal and there's no like, oh, you know, it'd be cool as if we did

20:16like a, a seventies kind of record or we should do that. Like she, it's, so whatever she's listening to, whatever we're sending each other, she's going to write three or four songs at the end of the day, probably, or, or throughout the week. And it's just this flow state of, of songwriting and songs and the amount of stuff that doesn't end up on the record is overwhelming because there's, there's so many, what's the one that I'm obsessed with that you refuse to? It's called Nobody. Oh, that song is so good. And nobody can hear it. Yeah. Yeah. And so like in the case of this one, that's just like, we just loved that song

20:51and it's coming out similar to a Nick Drake tune is almost like, that's like almost cooler in a way that like the, the, like the monkey at the typewriter thing, like you've written so many songs now that you accidentally wrote a Nick Drake song. And then like, so yeah, we're going to lean into that and double down on that and like, make sure like they, they, that the estate like knows and is cool with it. There's artists that we've worked with who are scared of like, Oh wait, but this, is this in the same key as like other songs on the record? Is this the same tempo? It's like, man, like. If you lean in and get credit, then everything's fine.

21:27I'm really interested in this, the constant practice of writing. Why do you write and has it changed over the time? It feels like therapy, honestly. It's like how I, it's, it's my journal entries. It's really how I, like Mason said, how I process the world around me. I just have so many feelings that they need to come out somehow. And, um, I've just been writing for so long that this is like my form of therapy now. I also go to therapy, but then on top of therapy, I am writing songs. How do you protect time for it in your life? It just kind of happens. Even if I'm like, I don't have time. I don't have time. I'm

22:01not going to write a song. Oh, I'm in a, I'm in a dry spell. And then suddenly a song will appear and it will just happen. Like I can't really force it. And I can't predict when it's going to happen. It's just, I feel a song brewing maybe for a couple of days. I'm like, I know a song is about to happen. And then one day I'm like, and it's here. That's, that's really it. Like, I don't know. It's just kind of like a part of me. Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds, a pet owner in the U.S. gets hit with a vet bill

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23:06Okay. So we've got this amazing, some 1970s references here, but we also have some really contemporary, very modern sounds as well. I'll listen to the song 211s. Super rich, high five, large production, and even like audible, auto-tune artifacting that I find really curious. I want to hear about, but let's, let's listen to the song.

Unplanned auto-tune on 211s

23:26I remember you in my house, sat on the couch and you held my face. Don't remember how it feels to kiss you, but I know the taste.

23:58That's so pretty. Oh, I love the little, is it lava or what? Woodlock. We call it the woodpecker. We call it the woodpecker.

24:06What would you tell me about this one? I was in New York rehearsing for something and like my phone was in my bag. It was a couple hours. I went to check it on a break and my house alarm was going off in LA and I was like, oh no, what's, what's going on? And then I also had a text from my ex-boyfriend and I was like, okay. And he was like, Hey, is everything okay? And I was like, what? And it turns out my alarm company had called him because they still had his number, I guess, for some reason. This was like almost a year, a year plus out from our breakup. I was like,

24:40I should have changed that. And then I just like started like reflecting on that relationship. And then I just felt really solid and that I had like given myself the closure that I needed. And I, I felt like I had no more like beef with him. I was like, I feel really solid and I can see like from your perspective, why this ended and why you did what you were doing afterwards. And like, I understand from all perspectives and it's all good. And so I kind of wrote this song

25:11just being like, we had, um, there was love once. Um, and that's really all that matters. Like we had a beautiful relationship that I think back on very fondly. Um, and it ended and that's okay because at least we had those moments together. And then you sent it to him. I did send it to him. Yes. And he liked it. So that's awesome. Um, crazy move on my part, but, um, that's kind of like my vibe. I don't know. I like to be messy sometimes when we went to record this, we recorded the guitar

25:47and the vocal first, and we didn't really like have a direction, no plan, no plan at all. The guitar that we had recorded, it was feeling a little slow. So we were like, let's just speed it up a little bit. We, we sped it up a couple of BPM and then the vocal kind of got all like weird with it. And we were like, Oh, we'll just replace it later. And then we added hand bone, which was just like, three, three, four. Lizzie? I'm doing, I don't, I don't know how to, I wasn't. Lizzie?

26:20Okay. When you don't know what to put on a song. Yeah. Just do that. And so we put that on there and then, and then eventually like, I don't really remember how the auto tune happened. I feel like the auto tune, uh, auto tune was kind of like maybe a joke at first. It definitely was a joke at first. We'd had like a celebratory-ish dinner, uh, which is in hindsight strange because the album wasn't done yet. No. You gotta celebrate life. Yeah. We all went out to dinner near the

26:51studio and like kind of celebrated, I guess like the album being almost done, which like, fuck it, take the wins while you can. And then we came back and we decided to have auto-tune karaoke. Auto-tune karaoke. So I made everyone who was not me, um, go into the booth and we put hard auto-tune on everyone's vocal. Just punishing auto-tune. And everyone got to choose a song on the record and then we would, they would sing it through with auto-tune. Because we all know these songs so well by this point. You've been working on it. So I made my man, I tried to do it.

27:21A lot of wines, some Chianti, the Mocaciano. Tarassi. And then it was like, all right, get in the booth. And Amelia did an incredible rendition of Peach. Taylor, you did a song that didn't end up on the album. Oh, shoot. What did I do? Car wash? Yep. I did car wash, nailed it. And I still think about the way he sang one of the lines every time we do a live. I'm being so honest. Me or Taylor? You. Oh, cool. The auto-tune became just like a, like, it's crazy

27:52that plug-in. You could just, you could just ruin a song at any moment for fun. Like Lizzie's in the other room. She's kind of in a bad mood. Like, you know what would make it worse? Throw some auto-tune on her vocal real quick. Or better. I don't know. Yeah, it was just kind of like. It was so fun. I think, yeah, I was just, I was probably not having a great time in the booth. And Omar, our engineer, was like, let me just put some auto-tune on this. Yeah, we'd surprise auto-tune Lizzie just to see, like, maybe it'd make her feel better. Maybe she'd hate us more. 50-50. But it was really fun. And I was having a great time. I was so surprised. I have to be honest, when I was first listening to the song, and again, I'm, I got this record a few weeks before anyone

28:24was going to listen to it. I was very lucky. And the very first moment of the little auto-tune artifacting, where it's like, it jumps between notes. I was like, oh my God, I need to, I need to email them. But like, they didn't tune the song right. I mean, correct. But then I was like, but like, Lizzie does not need tuning on her vocals. Like, this is, and then as you go deeper into the song, like, more and more of it happens. And it reminded me of like, wait a minute, you all leave all of the artifacts of recording in your recording. Everything is very intentional. I don't think we would do anything that, like, wasn't, was a mistake. We wouldn't leave it in there. But also, mistakes are always usually good.

28:59So. Yeah, they're cooler. Like, if you take everything out, then all you're left with is like, almost just like what you started with. Like, just an empty grid of nothingness. So, like, any humanness you can leave into the computer is good. Write that down. And with the story of the song and what Lizzie's singing about, this idea of like, kind of like remembering something better than it was. I wanted the song to feel like a memory. And so I felt like the auto-tune was lending itself

29:31to that because, you know, when you think back on a relationship, you tend to romanticize it and think about the great parts and leave out the not so great parts. And auto-tune was accomplishing that storytelling piece. Just to be clear. So we had a track that was sped up. There was a vocal that was on it. Did you auto-tune that vocal or did you auto-tune the one that had been sped up? Yes. So it was already weird. Yes. You made it weirder. You made it weirder, yeah. Put a bunch of stuff on it. I feel like that's kind of a theme where we will put a scratch vocal down on a track and be like, we'll come back to this later. And then I try to come back

30:05to it later and I literally like cannot. It doesn't work. I'll try to re-record the vocal and I'm just like, this sucks. And then we just end up with the scratch vocal as the main vocal. That happened so many times on this record. Scratch is special. The inhibition of it all is special. Just the no pressure. I think when there's pressure on me, like the last week we were in the studio or yeah, it was the last week we were in the studio and we were trying to like get all this stuff done and cram it all in. And I was so stressed, even if I wasn't really like registering that, that every time we would go to do a vocal, my throat was like

30:40tense. I like couldn't, I felt like I couldn't sing the way that I normally sing. And I was like, what is wrong with me? Like something's wrong with me. I think I need to go to like to the ENT or something. And I think it was just the pressure and the stress. So the scratch vocal is so chill because it's just like, there's no pressure at all. It's like, well, yeah, we're going to redo it later, but then we never do.

Broadway and the impact of theater

31:03Can we go from auto-tune and imperfections to Broadway briefly? Sure. Because I really enjoyed watching some of your vlogging about your Broadway experience and you have some behind the scenes footage of doing vocal warmups. And so you spent much of 2025 doing theater and you were in Floyd Collins. You demonstrated a vocal that I had no idea was in you. Obviously, it's always been there, but... Her musical theater voice when she does that. Is it okay if I play...

31:33Yes, please. So fun. We recorded the cast recording in this room. Oh, that's awesome. Here in Studio A at Power Station at... Yeah, that's awesome. This is Through the Mountain from Floyd Collins. You men going under. Always scooting around and running things. Always going around and running things. Tick, tock, tick, tock, tock, tick, tock. I'll make him go. Please. I'll make him set him free.

32:06What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?

32:16Thanks. So crazy. That's amazing. So that was recorded right here. That's so cool. I was standing like right around there. Do you want to do it again right now? Nope. No, that's okay. Obviously, I think a lot of us know your voice as the quietest. Only can be heard when you're recording with a beautiful microphone and your head can's on and you can hear all the grain and whisper in your voice. And obviously, you belt as well in your own music. But this was something I didn't know. And you did a lot of vocal lessons in the process of warming

32:47up to audition. I'm curious what performing on Broadway did for your voice and how that has carried it into then going and recording a Lizzie record. So many good things. Doing a show eight times a week was so hard and challenging and also like really worked the muscles of my voice, like just even physically. And I feel like I came away from that experience feeling so much stronger in my vocal abilities. And I feel

33:18like when I came back from that experience and we really started the record, I think you can definitely hear like there's a couple songs. Like I have a friend I recorded right before I started rehearsals. And then like, like the moon I recorded right after we did it. Like you can hear almost the difference if you listen closely. But I feel like it really gave me so much strength and like new technique to pull from that I didn't have before. Or maybe I had it

33:50just, I didn't know how to use it. And singing that stuff eight times a week was like so fun. And also like, like an exercise. It was, it was like a workout for my voice. So in addition to what it did for your voice, I'm curious how just living and breathing that music every day, even maybe informed you're going into the studio. I mean, it definitely informed my writing. I wrote Soldier of the Road when I was, I wrote it backstage during tech rehearsal over country while I was in New York. I wrote so many of the songs while I was there. It was so inspiring because the music was very like folk, bluegrass

34:22with like a little bit of opera. Like, what is that? That's crazy. The rest of the song actually is a lot more like Americana. Yes, it's definitely folk. Yeah. Hearing that and singing that every night was definitely inspiring to my writing. And it was, it's so, Adam Gettle, his writing is so complex and like harmonically dense sometimes. And like, sometimes it doesn't really make sense. You listen to it and you're like, what is going on? And I was like, wow, I want to, it just challenged me to like want to write more complex things.

Our Strange Ways and long epics

34:51Speaking of complexity, the song Our Strange Ways is this like seven minute long epic on the album. I hear a lot of themes about displacement, being away from home, as you were here in New York City, you live in Los Angeles. Can we take a listen to that for a second? Yeah. And I'm singing for a man who did me wrong. Nobody sings along. I am free but lonely. I have nowhere to go. No commitments, no obligations. And no soul.

35:34That's so powerful. The vocal melody here, wandering, and it's so gorgeous. But this line, I am free but lonely. I have nowhere to go. No commitments, no obligations, and no soul. Yeah. I cried the first time I heard that one. Wow. We speak to it. Well, I was listening to a lot of Hajira when I was writing this, this song specifically, but also this album. I just was so inspired by the long winding songs that like kind of just repeat the same chords over and over again, but the verses are different every time. And it was

36:07just, that was really inspiring to me. So I wrote this song while we were on tour in Europe. I wrote this song like about imagining an alternate reality. So like the first verse is this reality. And then when it switches to like somewhere in a Greyhound station, I'm singing for change. I'm like imagining a world where this person is not in my life. And I'm not, I'm not who I am. I'm just like busking at the bus station. And I have no people who are singing along to my songs. And I'm free,

36:42but lonely. I have nowhere to go. No commitments, no obligations, and no soul. I was just imagining like a world without this person that I was writing about. Well, I want to go through a little tour of this song. Someone's playing piano far away. So instead we have these sort of degraded old guitars that eventually come into the chorus, which is very, very crisp in contrast.

37:07It's a tenor ukulele. A world without you is not one I want to live in It's not one I want to know I want to hold It is so sad And then in the second verse, we go into a forest with like bird sounds. That's our woodpecker. You live in the forest With your guitars and your lovers What is the woodpecker? It's just Abe Brown's woodblock. You know, when he did that on 2-11s, we were like, dude, we're gonna need that in the forest.

37:43And then this song makes this wild modulation. It sounds like you're slowing down the tape, maybe.

38:02I can hear this sort of dreamy quality in your voice as it's like dropped down two steps. It's wild. And then at the end, we have what is, I assume, a voice note memo. Yep. Watch the sun come through Open the blinds You say I look beautiful In this light

38:37So this is like Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. You do have to go experience the full thing in IMAX. But I'd like to hear a little bit about these sonic landscapes that you were creating and the bold choice of making this epic long song. We just really wanted to make sure that each section had a different world because the song is so long that I didn't want it to feel like repetitive or boring ever because the chords are the same the whole way through.

39:08And the melody is wandering and free, but also kind of the same in every section a little bit. And we just wanted to really make sure that we were delineating each section. That's why we like have the forest in the second verse to really like bring it closer. And then it opens up in the second chorus. The second chorus. And then, yeah. Butterflies. What are butterflies? I was tailing with Ezekiel Ely going to... I'm picturing the two of you running around the studio picking out every instrument and being like, what does this do?

39:39Swinging from vine to vine. Just finding instruments. Yeah. A little ace tone that creeps in before the second chorus. Belzuki is real important. What's the Belzuki? Here we go. Don't get him started. I'm so glad you left. Thank you. What a great question. And I know we've all been wondering, but it's the original electric 12-string guitar, like the first one made by Dan Electro in the late 50s and early 60s. And Vincent Bell was a famous New York session player who worked closely with Dan Electro in a bunch of what are now considered like standard in the world of guitars.

40:16You know, he was kind of pioneering like the bass 6 or, in this case, the electric 12-string. He wanted something that could emulate. He'd roll into a session with his collection of crazy instruments from around the world. And one was a bazooki, like a Greek instrument. And the Belzuki was Vincent Bell's, like, oh, I want to be able to play an electric guitar that kind of has the double-coursed string thing like a bazooki does. And so he worked with Dan Electro. So it's basically like the prototype for the electric 12-string guitars.

40:49We know it now. But it doesn't have that bright, jangly, rickenbacker, you know, the birds and the beetles sound. It's much more film scorey and cinematic sounding, much more like Wrecking Crew and Pet Sounds, like single note. And the strings are backwards from a normal 12-string. There's just enough differences about it. No one's used them in a long time. They don't play very good. They don't sound very good. But they sound cool. And I love finding anything that's, like, obsolete and, like, surprised, like, you're the main character now.

41:23And, like, get back in there. Mason, congratulations. You've passed your audition. Thank you. We are starting a guitar history podcast. I could go much deeper. Yes, right? Oh, my God. All right. So obviously we've got to go back to the beginning. Doc Hoffman, Leo Fender, 1938. Maybe there's some really cool guitar sounds.

Soldier of the Road with Fleet Foxes

41:43If we can pivot to, you mentioned a song you had written while you were on the road, it sounds like. You were writing Soldier of the Road. Yeah, I was in New York. I was doing Broadway. So this is a collaboration you did with Fleet Foxes as well. Well, let's shake a listen to it. Soldier of the Road I am trying to break free Looking for a little love Looking for a little relief We keep the numbers moving

42:22And all the top men grooving Everything in place I obviously want to talk about Frontless Banjo, maybe? Oh, so close. So close. Actually, yeah. I don't really know what My old landlord, who's like this kind of guitar guru He lives in a cave up in Griffith Park But he still has his old house His name is Georgie And he's like my spiritual guide on guitars

42:53And what's actually cool And he taught me so much But his house is just full It's a history of bizarre guitars Of course, he doesn't live in the house Because of the cave of it all Of course But he still has the house And I lived there for a few years And this is just kind of what it's like It's like one of those coats That you just kind of pull things out of He was telling us about street food Which is where he goes out on his bike And then sees what food the grocery stores are throwing away And that's like free food And then he makes a meal with all that at home

43:23And he needed something And he reached behind the fridge He was looking for like a spatula But he actually grabbed a guitar And he was like Oh, here you take this And it was this weird little tiny Like 1920s or 30s It's anything homemade That someone The dream that he taught me That I'm obsessed with now Is symbolically what the guitar means to people And someone making one themselves In the 20s or 30s It's like they wanted that sound

43:54They think of country music on the radio They think of their favorite singer-songwriters They think of sitting next to a crush And playing them a song So like making your own guitar Like the desperation and the dream Of like wanting to play something It's just so romantic And so he got me hooked on anybody's old homemade guitar And whoever made this one Was really bad at it But it only had three strings And it had no frets And there's this whole thing of

44:25If someone gives you a guitar You shouldn't change the strings And you shouldn't change the tuning Because it's like that I mean, you know, you should tune it Lean into what it is And so here I am With this weird fretless three-string guitar And then the next day We went to record this song And it just was like, huh Like this could be something So it's these huge old strings Tiny little guitar And it's so dead And so bad at being itself And it sounded so cool on a microphone

44:56And Lizzie liked it I think it was your idea We should put that on Soldier It sounded so cool It just sounded so like Old school, like Western It was so sick And it felt so right for this song And especially like Once we put Robin's vocals on the track It kind of opened up the whole song for us And we were like, okay We know what to do now Thank you for indulging my guitar romance with Mason I really appreciate this But I want to go into this sort of road warrior anthem you have made I mean, it does It definitely has the feeling of like driving through the desert

45:28With the windows down In between two really distant tour dates Will you tell me about the making of this track? Yeah, well, Taylor actually gave me the inspiration for the title He, well, he gave me the title I think you were on some tour I was on a long tour And Lizzie was checking in with us And she was like, how's it going? I was like, man, I'm just a soldier of the road right now And I was like, I'm writing that down Inspiration comes everywhere And I didn't I like kept it in my notes for a long time

46:00And I was like, I don't know what to write with this And then I was backstage at New York And I think I was just like Experiencing stability Doing Broadway, like eight shows a week It was just so nice to have one spot That you go to every day And it's just I loved that routine And I was really It made me reflect on how chaotic touring is And so I pulled up that note That had the title in it And I was like, let's Let's write this song, finally I was just writing and thinking about How, like, vicious the touring cycle is

46:33Like, I feel like so many I see so many artists They're just constantly touring I'm like, when do you guys have a break? It's just non-stop I'm, like, worried for their Like, health and mental health And I'm like, are you guys okay? And the answer is probably no Because I've been on the other side of it Like, it's so tough And I was just Thinking, reflecting on that And really grateful That I wasn't doing that At that moment Running a business Shouldn't feel like Surviving a software group project One app for accounting

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Cutting a peach before dinner

47:32You have a song which feels Almost like a response song To Soldier of the Road I think it's the next track It's called Peach And it's from the other perspective It's from the perspective Of the person who's not on the road Cutting a peach before dinner You're playing in the band Somewhere in Ohio The crowd is going wild in the stands

48:03I stand in the room I stand in the kitchen One step closer to myself Somewhere in Kentucky You play a song for someone else That's a really tense slow burner I feel like the music behind you Almost is like a ticking clock Of just like letting time go by I love how you connect these two people here Where you have from fans going wild in the stands

48:34To standing in the kitchen It's almost like I can see both sides of the scene With the stand connecting the two Would you speak to the simple joy Of cutting up a peach And what this is doing in our song I wrote this song like in between Like I just gone through a breakup And I just started seeing someone new And I was at We were about to leave for tour And I was in that in between Area where my ex had just moved out of my house And I was living there by myself

49:05For the first time since I moved in And so I was like really like lost I was like what do I even do by myself Like I don't know And one day I was just kind of like I have free will Like I can do whatever I want And I feel like I kind of forget that sometimes I get so locked in to like one routine Or you know thing that I forget That there's like a whole other world out there That I can just kind of go and do whatever I want So I was like I'm gonna go and eat this peach Before dinner because why not

49:37And it was such a small moment But it just really felt like so grounding And I was like wow I have control over my own life And I am free and I can do whatever I want And I was like starting to get back my independence That I felt like I kind of lost in the relationship And it was just a very profound moment That I really felt like I needed to write about I want to let everybody hear the moment of profundity

50:08When it really hits Everything was smaller Now I'm seeing it grow And I'm cutting a peach in my kitchen While you're playing a show It's a lovely moment Thank you I really wanted this song to feel Like up until that bridge moment

50:40The vocals just dry I really wanted it to feel intimate And like we were just there in the room together And then as the bridge continues And that big note comes up The reverb slowly like gets bigger And then it like you know peaks at that high note And just feels like a breakthrough almost It's like catharsis This song I love this song so much We recorded this song using only pianos There are some strings in there

51:10But everything else is all piano Piano symphony No guitars Yeah that when Lizzie first played me the demo It's like especially with the How simple and sincere and special Also like so glad that your freedom moment Was with the peach And not like hot fudge sundae pop tarts Because that wouldn't have sang as well Still like those NASCAR shaped Fritos they did What? Just that like it's really musically convenient It was a peach Yeah And the demo

51:42You wrote it there The piano at your house And like just something about the space That the song occupied And the story that Lizzie was telling It was like We should grow this song Like from the source It's almost like a It's like a The song becomes like a dream That it had Like Where the piano is like In the Like it's just Lizzie and the piano at her house But the same way that We imagine like Us playing At a show Or imagine all these things

52:12Like the piano itself Is imagining And there's like a big bass hit here And there's like these strings that come Like what would the piano dream For this song too And how do we grow that From the source Of just Lizzie's piano at home And so the idea of the piano symphony That starts just with like You and me Doing the dink dink dinks On the I was on the little Your tiny piano You were on the grand Lizzie was on the upright We were all just playing at the same time

52:43And we just tracked it all the way through And my piano had some tissue stuff Between the hammers To make it sound worse And that's like the kind of Percussive brushy thing That comes in Slamming the bottom of the Grand pianos So there's just this And all the strings resonating Full expression of a Just a piano Like a Dave Grueson score Or something Just like Just this Let's see what this one piano can do Or these three pianos can do It gets so big and dramatic Like right with When Lizzie's vocal explodes

53:13And the reverb And then like the To me The best part Is like when the The song kind of wakes up There's one note Did you play it? Someone played it You might have played it On the mini piano It's like Halfway through the outro It just like Sucks away And it goes right back to Lizzie And just tiny And small And it's like The piano woke up Which is like That was crazy What was that back there? What was that back there? Yeah Pops you out of the dream The first time Lizzie played it for me I kept hearing this As a sad song

53:44And then It wasn't so much That I wasn't Listening to the lyrics I wasn't But that's not the point It just That It's There's such a sweet Human Like the The self-realization Of it all That like A little is enough And so Like instead of doing A whole world of like Our crazy instruments And the Belzuki And whatever It was like Just What can you get away with With the With the piano Let's play the song Yeah I also feel like Soldier of the Road Is the perfect

54:15Halfway point Of this record Because the first half Of the song Feels more in line With the first half Of the record Which is like Darker a little bit And more brooding And then the second half Of Soldier of the Road Or the outro Turns major And it feels like Lighter And more sparkly And then the second half Of the record Kind of feels that way As well March the shift Yeah I think Yeah It felt like The perfect Halfway point And Peach Is the beginning Of the second half So it felt like Appropriate

54:45It's a wonderful Moment of transformation I'm a father Of young children And like The number one Act of defiance Is to have a snack Before dinner You can't do that And so you took This tiny act of defiance And turned it Into this magical moment Transformation

Finding light through the process

55:00Into the Into the second half Of the album I'm curious I asked you about Why you write songs And maybe to close things out I'm curious What has transformed For you In the process Of making this work So many things I feel like I have Really grown Just as like A human Through this whole Process of making Angel I started With the breakup And it just like Catapulted me Into this season Of growth And change And discovering Myself again

55:30Which was really Healing And yeah I learned so much About myself I feel like I kind of I got my light Back Through this whole Process Making this album And writing these songs Was so cathartic And allowed me to Process all of that Stuff in real time And also Just the process Of making this record Was so much fun Like we just had So much fun We were experimenting We weren't tied down To anything Anything that we had In our mind Before we came Into the record We were just like Let's just see What happens

56:02And that was Really fun And satisfying I'm really proud Of what we made And yeah It's like been The joy of my life So far To make this album Can we all thank Lizzie, Mason And Taylor Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you.

56:55Thank you.

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