Carly Rae Jepsen’s pop pedagogy

Welcome Carly Rae Jepsen

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0:42You know that feeling. Too many updates. Too many meetings. Too many things falling through the cracks. Monday.com was built for that gap. The AI work platform designed from the ground up for people and agents to work side by side and deliver more together. Drafting the brief. Flagging risks. Running a competitive scan. Your agent can do it all. And the best part? Anyone can build one. Even you. Try it. Create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com. Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding.

1:24And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And we are so delighted, Carly, that you're joining us today. Ah, my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. The last we checked in was 2020, about dedicated side B. It was over Zoom. So we're really delighted to be checking with you five years later since we last spoke. Wow.

The double album concept

1:43Carly, you're here with your first double album, Day and Night. And so the first question we want to ask you is, what attracts you to this idea of a double album? You know, it's a great question. I really wanted to play with two different musical lanes. And I actually was just having a conversation with my glam team about this like two seconds ago, about the difference between the type of music that you listen to and the type of music you want to perform. I think I really wanted the day album to be the type of music that I listen to

2:13and the night album to be something that I could enjoy live, that has a bit more energy. But yeah, I found myself writing in two different directions. It wasn't an intentional plan when I started. And something about the organic, folky, psychedelic influence of day was really exciting to me. I wanted to like live and bask in that dreamy world. And then I also found myself really kind of driven by some Abbott influences. Like I really wanted to make something that felt like your inhibitions were lost

2:44and you could really get up and kind of feel the music and dance. So this was a way to sort of have my cake and eat it too, day and night, get to do it all.

Opening track After All

2:52So you open with After All. Yeah. It's a very alive song, live. But it's quiet, it's very sensual. You're singing at almost like a whisper level.

3:16What makes it a good day song and why did you want to start there? It's a simple reason that I choose the first song for the album, which I think is a really important selection of what, how do you sort of, you know, begin the invitation, so to speak, to like a world you've created. And After All was the clear choice for me because it was the song that I would play for friends when I was trying to explain to them what I was making. I was like, I don't really know, but it's something like this. And I feel like that's a good token of a clue of like, okay, we should start there. I loved thematically too, that After All represented something that I hadn't quite

3:48like tapped into before, which was romanticizing kind of domestic bliss, like kind of getting excited about the thrill of something that feels safe, which those two words like safety and thrilling don't often get combined. But I was, I was quite delighted that what I was experiencing in real life was the combination of those two things, something that felt really grounded and like the biggest adventure I'd ever taken on all at the same time. I feel like it's like one of the most underexplored parts of the love song categories. Right. It's usually like forbidden and bad or like dangerous and gonna hurt you.

4:20And I was like, well. Or domestic bliss often just gets saved for country music, which we of course love, but like it doesn't get enough place in the world of pop music. I agree. I was just as surprised to be writing it and experiencing it than anything too. So it was a really fun, I don't know, it felt like a different flavor than I've ever played with before. Something cool happens in the chorus of the song. Drop the door, stop the world, stop the inspiration, I'll be yours In a moment to elevate the after hours

4:51Every night, even after all Everything drops out and it's just your voice. Do you remember finding that musical choice and like what inspired you? Well, I have to give credit where it's due. Kyle Shearer is a producer on this and Nate Seifert was my collaborator. This duo or our little threesome is something I really value in terms of just, I don't know, like little spaces of creative waves I've caught with people.

5:22And this team, we've been working together for a while. And I think this is one of the songs where you kind of don't know how you made it really. You kind of are all doing your thing and you're talking and you're playing and you're dancing. And then you go for lunch and you come back and by the end of the day, you have something you don't really know how it happened. I think that's the magic of songwriting, too, is sometimes it does feel really effortless. And after all was one of those things where I think it was as simple as, I mean, I can't speak for Kyle, but I feel like he might have just like muted it temporarily and we all got kind of excited about the shock of just the vocals.

5:53And then lo and behold, we were all like singing and chanting and we made a choir of like eight of us, even though it was just three and like and really enjoyed the idea that this was a celebration. This was the intro to a song. It wanted it to not be like hit you over the head loud, but like a soft, subtle celebration. Yeah. I know that you're immensely prolific. You write a lot. I do write a lot. Yes. Are there things that you wanted to do to make the songwriting process fresh or different, something that you wanted to bring into it in a new way? Absolutely. I love that question. I can tell that you are a songwriter because I feel like maybe having explored pop in different ways before with different projects,

6:31my intentions here in a not so loud way, but something that I knew I was bringing into the room was less of an idea of what it needed to be. I was almost attracted to the freedom of discovery, of curiosity, of knowing that we know how to make pop music, you know the formula. Now, looking at the ingredients of what attracts me and what I'm excited about, how do we let go of all those rules, the structure, the game of it, and kind of let inspiration take over. That was something that was really important to me. So a lot of the times, instead of coming in with a hook of like, here's the concept, let's go here.

7:06You know, it's Beach House and it's going to be about bad dating. It wasn't like that. It was like, this is freeform writing in a way where you kind of just let the melody find the words for you and then you make sense of it a little bit later. And I think a lot of the way that I approached this album was with that kind of playful spirit, I think. I think there is something that is a great introduction. As you said, you know, the first song matters. It's the thing you wanted to, you've been introducing your friends to it, to the album through the song. And the first time that we hear a chorus, it's you all by yourself. It's really raw in that way.

7:49Even if that was maybe a deliberate production choice after the fact, I think it sort of announces that freeform spirit that you're talking about. It's a song that I think, when I look back on, we were just talking about, you know, how to offer something new, too. And when I have written so many songs, I'm always looking for what it is that feels fresh and still feels authentic. Like, I don't necessarily want to go and all of a sudden make a country album that I've never really done before. But I don't mind playing with some influences like a banjo here and there and bringing it into my world.

8:22And so I think After All was a good example of something I hadn't really done before. I hadn't really sung in that register before or whisper sung in that way. And I wanted to really allow domestic bliss to still feel sexy and still feel, like I said, kind of erotic and exciting in its own way. And for me, it felt like all of these things to entertain a forever with somebody who was going to be the one, the one. Yeah. Speaking of sometimes banjo, Nate, you are sometimes banjo player. Yes. Hearing the words banjo and erotic so close together in a sentence was like,

8:57I was like, whoa, I got to pour some cold water on me.

9:03Yeah, I'm actually reminded of the first time our podcast ever got picked up by other news outlets was when we interviewed you back in 2020. And you told us that you had written over 200 songs, I think, for Dedicated. And then all of a sudden we released the episode and then, you know, all these different news outlets were like, Carly Rae said she wrote over 200 songs. We were like, wow, I think that might have been our first scoop ever as a podcast. So it's cool to hear your new sort of free form, like this free form approach you've described.

The metaphor of Versailles

9:36And maybe we can talk about how that played out in the writing of the track Versailles. And maybe we can start with that central metaphor, image, Versailles, Marie Antoinette. I want to party in the sun.

10:07I want to see it in the nighttime.

10:11We'll go all night just to feel, just to feel, just to feel, just to feel something.

10:18And then we'll lose our heads for the people we've forgotten.

10:26Mary Antoinette, the modern bunny naked through the garden. What inspired that imagery? Well, part of the free form writing is, I think, this, I'm going to sound kind of hippie-ish when I say this, but the sort of energy of being very open, I think, in your life to conversations, to allow inspiration to kind of come to you and to hear it when it does. And so I think it's just sort of the way you walk through your life has to be a little bit more observant and playful, I guess. I found myself the night before we wrote that song, Versailles, staying at the Grand Hotel in Sweden in Stockholm where I stay.

11:03And I literally was just watching whatever was on TV that night because I'd ordered room service and it was late and I couldn't sleep because of jet lag. And lo and behold, Sofia Coppola's version of Mary Antoinette was on. And I was thinking, you know, the history of this actually is quite dark. But the concept that she's showing in this video or in this movie version of it where it's all about indulgence and pleasure, I was about to go and embark on a month-long holiday with my partner. And I was really interested in what slowing down and indulgence would be like for me.

11:38So I went to work the next day skipping with this sort of idea of Versailles being the metaphor for like the ultimate pleasure, the ultimate sort of ecstasy. And I was talking to my collaborators about this idea. And that's how the song was born. And again, it's one of those things where you're like, well, then how did it start? It was just everyone was I feel like Marcus was playing that crazy piano loop. And it just brought in some energy and we got a little excited about the breaking of the rules idea of like, what if the chorus slowed down? How do you keep the energy when you slow something down?

12:09And I think anytime we crossed a bridge with any of my collaborative teams of are we allowed to do that? The answer was always like an exhilarating like, yes, yes. In fact, we must if we're asking the question, we got to go there, you know? Charlie and I heard the chorus of the song. We were like, what just happened? And we have that kind of eerie piano groove at the start in the verse. And then when we get to the chorus, there's this total switch up. It blew us away. Was that moment something intentional or something instinctual to switch up the chorus like that?

12:58I feel like it happened very organically, but I think I'm in the room with like like minded collaborators who are also we've had some intimacy in terms of how long we've known each other. We know what each other's capable of. We know, you know, our weak spots, maybe even of like what somebody else might be like. I trust you here. I trust this person for that and that person for the other thing. And I think when you get to a place where you've had a long term relationship and you've been in the game for a hot minute, there's a little bit less concern about what patterns you should follow versus trusting your instincts, I guess.

13:37And it's just music at the end of the day. So you can't get it that wrong. It's just going to be something that you that you either enjoy or you don't. And all I could say in the room is that we were really enjoying the rebellion of being like, we're going to slow. We're going to do the opposite of what you're supposed to do. And we're going to like slow things down here and make the challenge would be how do we keep the energy still kind of intense in that moment? I want to talk about another day track on the album on wires.

Desire and the track On Wires

14:15Your music overwhelmingly first hits me with just like ecstatic joy. But also buried in these songs, there's often like a lot of gray area, emotional contradiction. So on wires, we have really big themes. Desire is there, but the world is also on fire. Would you tell us about that and bring these together? I've been called out for really looking at, and I didn't know this about myself, but I can see it when I look back at lyrics or the patterns of some of the ways that I write music.

14:53But I think when I feel excited about somebody romantically, I'm always looking to like seclude them. I'm always just looking to be like, you, me, and an oasis away from everything feels like the next step. And I don't know why that is, but it tracks with me for sure. There's a lyric in Patience, Power of Passions where I say something along the like, we get busy thinking that the world is our creation. And the idea that when you're with your lover, you kind of are making your own little idea of how you move through the world. And it can be challenging and hard and painful, but together we can kind of make a little oasis around that.

15:28And I think that's a craving that I have when things get tough. It's interesting with On Wires because that song is so about desire and so about just the very passionate, like, how do I get you away from this bar so we can go home immediately, which is a little like, oh, gosh. But then we shot the video when I was like six months pregnant and there was this confusion of like, well, how do we make that fly now that I have a baby hidden down here? And so it was a tricky thing to navigate, but we're like, okay, well, the video itself will now become about something a bit more complex.

16:00Like, how does the desire turn into a deeper meaning in terms of what I want from my life outside of the music business, a balance, you know, a personal life. What a concept. And so it was really fun to play with the visual being this like microphone cable tug of war of like being inside of the back room stage versus like out in the world again and like ultimately like winning that battle. I was really stunned by the, I'm not sure if it's a sample or not, but there's this loop that almost sounds like children singing.

16:30Playing at a park. Yeah. Yeah. And they're saying the world is on fire. It's a really surprising and arresting moment. And I'm curious what inspired that decision. I think it's fun to play with a certain level of, um, this is going to sound crazy, but like creepy a little bit.

17:04Like I like a little creepy in fashion. I love a little creepy in music too. When it's like the right amount where it just makes a little shiver go down your back. But, um, I don't know why the, that, uh, how exactly Kyle found that moment. But, um, I remember when we heard it, we all like, Ooh, it's giving you a little eerie on your toes. Like the hairs on your skin kind of stand up a little bit. And I liked entering the song that way. Okay. So this is another day song. What, what, how did you know when you're in day song world? It was a lot about the instrumentation. And so anything that had a bit more of an organic leaning, like, uh, production was day to me.

17:40And I think actually Versailles is one of the ones that could have gone both ways. Cause we play with synths in there too. Usually if it's more synth based, it's going to be in the nighttime. But I didn't want like the day to be sunshiny and happy and the night to be like dark and mysterious. I wanted the, the complexities of both to have, uh, dimensions. So the day I wanted there to be like some high energy songs and some low kind of folkier things. And the night, same thing. I didn't want it to be all at like an 11 out of 10. I wanted there to be some like low moments that made you kind of sit in your feelings. Cause I don't know about you, but for nighttime, it's sometimes my favorite time to really listen

18:13to music, not just like dance and like lose myself, but to like really like go there and be in my feelings, especially as I get older. I feel like a lot of my dance parties are like me alone at home, like by myself, just like letting loose or like sitting in the song. And I really wanted to offer up a body of work, um, in a way that I would listen to it as well. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Like when, when, when we start the album for me, the way I experienced it was like, it felt like 5am after the dance party, you know, like it's like the sun is coming up,

18:44but the dance party hasn't quite ended because it's, it is a very, um, despite being sort of whispered and quiet, maybe the, we've, we've blown out our voice from yelling all night at the party. It still has a sort of house driven beat once we really get into the song. And so it does feel like the sort of almost like a 24 hour cycle of what I'm experiencing, but maybe, maybe we can shift into, into the night song. So, um, night more synthesizers. When we get to night, things, you know, get maybe a little bit moodier. A little intensified.

ABBA influences on Don't Leave Me on the Dance Floor

19:11Yeah.

ABBA influences on Don't Leave Me on the Dance Floor

19:12So could we go to the, the, the single, don't leave me on the dance floor? How did this song come together? Well, I, um, as you know, I traveled to Sweden a lot for songwriting and I had been there and that is the land of ABBA. So I think I was like by the ABBA hotel and you know, ABBA was on the brain, let's just

19:43put it that way. And then I went to London to meet my partner for the beginning of what was going to be our holiday. And I saw ABBA voyage, which I didn't think I was going to like, cause I was like the concept. I'm like, they're not even there. Like, I don't know. But then I went and I was so wrong. It was just the best time ever. And I recommend it highly. And I came home being like, God damn ABBA, like such tight, delicious melodies and hooks. And obviously everybody already knows that, but I, I just like had spent a night with it and I was very affected and I knew I was going to have to do something with that energy. So when I came home, I had some sessions booked with CJ and Arthur and, um, they were just

20:16the right people to say, I've got a newfound love affair with ABBA right now. And when I fall in love with something from the past, I like live there for a while. Like I've been on an earth, wind and fire, like kick, like I will like go. And my poor son has heard only that since he's been born. And I mean, it's great. He's having a great time. But I, I think that I was in my ABBA place and so we, we basically spent five days, if not a week, just kind of asking ourselves the question of like, with the synths and the music that we have today, the production and kind of like, you know, developments, what

20:49would ABBA do? Like, how can we play with the combination of making something fresh with that? So it was really like a nod and a bow down to them. I still like cannot believe that, uh, the boys were down. And in fact, they were, they were more than down. And so I don't leave him with the dance floor, I think was born maybe on like day four of that, of that little workshop. Well, it's, it's helpful. You've, you've, you've come from ABBA, you're hanging out in Sweden. Yeah. I'm sure it's just kind of like, you're just absorbing these things, but are there certain ways you feel like you are modulating your writing to, to evoke that feeling in that place? Well, I knew very much that I didn't want the whole night album to be ABBA.

21:22I was excited about a flavor or two playing with that, but if anything, I was more excited about, um, the, the night side being a little bit less like a story song and a bit more of an experience song. I even like wrote the word experience on my little whiteboard experiences, stories, day, night, you know, I wanted to feel like you're involved in like the sweaty club or a hot bubble bath or whatever it is. I just wanted to, or that room in the museum where it's like all white and there's weird birds chirping and you're like, what's going on? Like I wanted that feeling for the night.

21:54I know I would get quite dirty about it, but, um, I did feel like, uh, you know, some of the more experimental songs like Near or Far.

22:17That was sort of that where it just kind of like a journey that we're going on and that excited me. I just, I was really, and I think it excited that the team members that I was playing with and collaborators too, of just like, um, I don't know, following a feeling without being, uh, sure where you're going, I guess. I feel like we can move to one of the most kind of pulsing, uh, dance floor ready tracks

Family and the song Motivation

22:44on the album motivation. This is another one of these fun juxtapositions that you've been crafting over the course of

23:15the album because it's got this four on the floor beat. It's got this 808 bass drum and it's a song about sort of embracing family and celebrating family. So it's like another one of these, the two things that you might not expect to go together, but when you listen to it, you're like, oh, this is a fresh take and a new musical perspective that I hadn't necessarily heard. So how did you like embrace those contradictions in the writing process?

23:45I began that song with my husband, Cole. We were at our home studio. I think the beginning of like the little pattern of like the leaves in the verse was actually when I was like home for Christmas and I was like actually walking on crunchy leaves. And this is how I like move through my life is I'll have an idea and I'll voice note it and then like bank it for later, so to speak. Like, um, and then we were home later and I, this is going to sound crazy. I was listening to like some of the Beyonce album and I was excited about like some like more like hyper, like, like quicker.

24:16I don't know. Are we talking about renaissance? Yeah. Like, like lemonade. Like I was like excited about like something hyper. And, and at the same time I'd been spending a lot of time with my family and kind of seeing them in different scenarios, whether it was like a wedding floor dance party or just like a Christmas celebration. And I have, I, I think especially in my field, I have put in a ton of work to stay connected to my family over the years and it's like relationships that get better and better as they go. But it's like anybody's family, it's complex, it's complicated, it's hard work sometimes. You're naming all of it.

24:46You know, it's like you give me the motivation and you also box me in and also there's all there's, and there's so much therapy, but at the same time, it's a celebration of like, I, I feel like what I, I really have won in life as I have a family who cares and loves each other deeply. And if we get it wrong, we try to make up for it and figure it out together. And I felt excited about having a family anthem that was a little bit just less like on the nose, perfect. Like it's a family and it's great. I was like, that's not real life. It's a family and it's complicated and it's still great, but it's a family and it's

25:20beautiful for the fact that it's complex and there's a lot of different personalities that are all mixed together in that. And so, yeah, I, I, I spoke to my husband about that idea. And I think because he's, um, he just, you know, has an inside scoop to all of it in a different way, being my partner, it was the perfect collaborator to kind of go there with. And we wanted to also celebrate the fact that as this was all happening, we were pregnant and expecting, or I was pregnant and expecting our child. And it was just a really kind of cool time to be reflecting on it all. Wow. Yeah.

25:50That's, there's, there's so much happening here. One of the things I'm curious about is the song begins with this group of unfamiliar voices.

26:11Who are we hearing? That's just me with like a vocoder pitching my voice down. Yeah. It's very compelling. Thank you. And then there's a child's voice at the end of the, of the song.

26:33That's my niece, Ivy. I had a late night idea that it'd be kind of cool to, to nod to the future with the song. And my son was not yet born. And I called my sister. I was like, is there any way we can get Ivy? Just like give me whatever message she wants. I might like try to like bleed it into this family song I'm creating and I'll like run it by you at the end to make sure you're cool. And she was like, sure. And Ivy just got on the phone and she was like, hi, Auntie Carly. I just want to say peekaboo. And I was like, perfect. That's how we're going to end the song. It was great. And there's a little twinkle twinkle in there as well. Yeah. Yeah. She just did whatever she did.

27:04And me and Cole were like, this is adorable and delightful. And I feel like it's a nice little hopeful nod at the end because I do think we're in the middle right now of kind of creating the beginning of our own sort of, you know, family that will continue on. And it's just nice to think about all the things that came before and what you want to pass on to the next generation. Yeah. There's, there's so much inspiration happening. I mean, to be writing songs about the people that we love most and dedicate things to them that are honest and raw, which a song requires, you know, a song that is not honest.

27:34You can tell. Yeah, you can tell. Yeah. And especially the family will know, right? You can play it for the like, this is what I represent, what's going on. Luckily, my family's all embraced that song so much, which is great. Yeah. That's so special. Oh my gosh. You could have dance parties with your family, with your song. My mother did try to play it at our wedding and I was like, there will be none of my music at the wedding. I had to like call the wedding planner and I was like, so there's a woman, she looks like me. She's my mom. She's going to try to play something. Don't let her. You have one job. Support for the show comes from Sonos.

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Looking back at Call Me Maybe

31:22You've been such an inspiration to so many. You have been deeply inspirational to us 12 years ago when we started making this podcast. And it all started with, you know, Nate was at the time, you were still a student of musicology, right? I was a PhD student in historical musicology, indeed. And so, you know, it began with a long drive that we were on down, I think, Highway 1 in California. And he was playing me, Call Me Maybe, because that was sort of like the song of the moment. This was 2012. Yeah. And he was like, let me tell you about kind of what you were saying about ABBA.

31:55Yeah. Like, what's happening in these chords are brilliant. Yeah. And what's happening in these lyrics is like the most uncomfortable, difficult thing that's ever happened in your entire life. And it's personified through these chords, which are sort of evasively not ever landing in a comfortable place. Wow. And I was like, wow, this is a very powerful song. That has since turned into, you know, the first chapter of our book. It turned into many episodes of the podcast. I know Nate delivers that lecture to many of his students. I deliver that lecture to many of my students. I'm curious how it feels, you know, and beyond even just us, I think about, you know, online, the amount of discourse that has been inspired by your work.

32:30Like, Pop Heads is like the big subreddit. Three million people who are talking about pop music, like, with just such fervor and passion. And you were like a real patron saint to them. I know that you were referenced on one of the first episodes of Los Culturistas, one of the great culture podcasts. How does it feel to know that people are like really digging in and analyzing your work at that level? Oh, my gosh.

32:53It's hard to even take it in, to be honest. But I think more than anything, I'm really just happy that pop is getting taken seriously as a genre and that people are interested in seeing its intelligence. Because I think that pop can be thought of as like, you know, an easy – I mean, it's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be immediate. But it also can be complex and all these other things. And I definitely think it's a love-hate genre for a lot of people, including myself. And that's sort of why I was excited about exploring it for, like, my life's work is I really have an opinion about it.

33:29And I really was excited to carve out sort of my lane of pop music. And it's just really fun over the years to get to expand that lane more and more and more. I think that's why pop is just forever going to be a life passion of mine is that it isn't just one thing. And I'm learning with Day and Night, for example, that I can grow with it and I can mature with it. And I can figure out different ways to, you know, still tell stories through pop music. And my first intro to pop music is The Spice Girls.

33:59So it had, like, a very specific idea of what pop was, but it's been really cool to take that initial sort of, you know, invite and turn it into my own thing over the years. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so impressive to be so committed to that sound and pursuing it and finding every facet of it that you can explore. Thank you. And I'm sure there were moments when it was discouraging. I mean, we had a very memorable kerfuffle when we did this interview with a magazine called Quartz and we talked, we did our analysis of Call Me Maybe.

34:37And they gave it a headline that said why Carly Rae Jepsen is as musically complex as Mozart or something like that. But as soon as they ran that headline, all of these people, mainly like older. Mainly Mozart fans. And maybe the world. Came out and they're like, how could you compare, you know, a pop artist to Mozart? And we were like, wait, wait, wait. Mozart was a pop artist. Like, his concerts were like pop shows. He was the original, you know, boy band.

35:08Like, you don't get it. But it was such a moment for us. We were like, oh, there's kind of people who still have all these biases about pop music. And it was a really interesting reminder of that. And yet you've like, despite any controversies, you've like stayed so committed to that sound. And I think it's really remarkable. I don't know. I don't take it that seriously. And yet I take it so seriously that I've dedicated my life to it. It's both things at once. I'm going to go out and say that I am nothing compared to Mozart.

35:41And I know that. Just to be clear, the best comment on this, there was a long thread. And one of them was like, how dare you compare Carly to Mozart? That is completely unfair. She is so much better. Oh my gosh, no, no, no. But I feel the cool thing about music that I've always felt is there's, there doesn't even have to be compared. It's such different things. It's not a competition. Yeah. And there's room for all of it, which is so lovely. I feel like that is what's exciting. But I think what I love about my job is I'll never, ever have learned all of it.

36:12It's just like a constant place where you go and you try to get better. And every experience you can be a sponge to. Every session, even if you don't have a song, I get called out for overwriting a lot. And a big part of the reason that I go to these sessions, even if I already have an album, is you just don't know that there's something else around the corner. And that might be a song that beats what you have. Or it might be a lesson. It might be in with different people that you don't know and some sort of thing comes to you. Or the way that they approach the song is a different way than you would approach the song.

36:44And in that kind of almost like sparring that's happening, you're learning something. Or you discover that you were wrong. I feel like that's the joy of, you know, anything that you're passionate about is you never quite master it. You're always just a student. And I feel like that's sort of where I live. I've learned the most from the worst songwriting sessions that I've done in my life. Right? Because I have to learn how to be comfortable in my very awkward body. When things are just not going well and communication is breaking down, it's like I have to learn to be a different kind of person. And it's very, it's always instructive to me.

37:16And collaboration is interesting because there's a thin line between like a really beautiful collaboration and a really tricky compromise where no one's quite happy. And we've all been very polite to make something that's watered down in all directions. I think more than anything, it's really important who you collaborate with, that you already are like-minded or that you already like know that you pair each other well and you're okay with that kind of, I don't know, the friction that that causes almost in the room. And to be able to like, I don't know, go in there and enjoy whatever sparky energy is existing there or if it's a very fluid one, enjoy that as well.

37:53But I think it's nice to challenge yourself with both things. You know, speaking for myself, I could imagine when you are part of this larger discourse and, you know, in some ways that are maybe positive and affirming. But maybe there's also a need to kind of shut off the part of you that will think about how your release will be received by people. Totally. Because otherwise maybe it'll sort of cloud the process. So I'm curious if you have strategies for doing that or if it's just like when it's album writing time, you just enter that space and kind of block it out.

38:33Like, yeah, is that something you have to do consciously? Yeah, I guess so. I think maybe just from my experience of like living through, you know, this career for a number of years, there's things that I know that work for me and there's things that I know I find challenging. So it wasn't really like, here's the strategy. It just kind of got formed over the years. And I think where I've landed is a place where when I'm creating the art, I think about things like how will this feel to perform in a show?

39:04What will this – I feel like that really informed why I need the day as well as night because I was like, well, this is fun. But I also want to make everyone sweat, you know, and I want to do both of those things. So how do I do both of those things? So I'm not thinking about its connection to people. But I'm not thinking about – I'm trying not to think about how will it be perceived and will they like it versus how will we get to digest this together sort of thing. And I do have a lot of – I think as I've gotten further along in this, I would say with day and night more so than any other project, I didn't do the like trial by committee listening team.

39:40Like I used to have my band and my A&R and my label and my family and anyone who would like grant me their ears. And I'd be like, here's a box of like, God, I'm so sorry, like 67 songs that I've narrowed down from 200. Can you tell me what your top 20 is when you have time? And then I would take all of these like these things and they'd have like weird charts and people would rate them differently because I didn't give – so like five stars versus three hearts. I'm like, what does that mean? And by the time I was done, I would have sort of like a catalog of what everyone's favorites were and then I would kind of do this rebellious thing where I would just pick my favorites mostly anyways.

40:15And if there was like one or two that was on debate, I would maybe pull from the committee, so to speak. But what it did allow me, I felt like, was an understanding of how the public might review it. And then it gave me peace before it was done in a big broadcast way to be comfortable with my decisions regardless in an artistic way. This time I was like, why do I do that? That is just so painful. Like I'm going to – I'm going to make something different. I know I want to make something different. I don't want anyone to stop me.

40:46And I think I'll just let my fear take over if I bring in the committee this time. And so I kept my circle very insular. Like it was very like I had my husband, my longtime guitarist, Tavish, who's been in every show that I've played. So I knew I had that like he understands the audience. He understands me in a deep way. And then I had my executive producer, Kyle Shearer, as like a big new element. And Tavish was also executive producer. So we were – and Carlos, my A&R. And we were – it was us. It was like our little team of people.

41:17And then every once in a while I would show a song here and there. But I wasn't willing to be stopped, if that makes any sense. And I really did end up landing more confidently, I think. And then the way I was writing was landing more confidently. So I think that was the difference this time around. But in terms of press or in terms of outside voices and how you're perceived, that can be crazy. I think I've taken solace in the fact that in the same week of interviews, I've had someone say contradicting things about me. Like, she overshares. She doesn't – she keeps all the secrets to herself.

41:48And you're like, well, which one is true? And you realize that you're like, well, it's just someone's perception of you. And neither or both of these things are true. And so I have to just kind of settle with the idea that, you know, the people whose opinions really matter about me are like the people who are in my family and my circle of friends. And the rest of it, I hope that my biggest offering is my music and not like my personal life. And that's what I want to share. I think there's a lot of wisdom in thinking about when we're creating to be making something for the people who are most excited to receive it as opposed to, you know, for people who might be wearing a blazer and analyzing and writing about it.

42:24You know, we all have a role as well. But the thing that has to be made, I love imagining the audience is going to be there. Sometimes even when I have to, I don't know, read an introduction, I picture Nate if he's not there. Because it has to be for him. It can't be for everybody. Yeah. Well, I think you just touched on something, too. Sorry to go on and on about this. But I really think that, I think my stepfather said at one point, you know, what a wonderful thing to have a mighty community that you know and feed them. And I feel like after emotion happened, I, which came from such like a very honest, almost rebellious place of like, I'm just going to make what I want.

43:01And then finding that there was a community that got it, it became a little less chaotic of like, how do I make everybody happy here? And a little bit more, like, how do I just, now that I've met what feels like my community, how do we have fun now together? How do we keep feeding each other? And that felt a little less daunting and a little bit like my strategy is just, you know, make something real and find your family. I imagine part of that, you know, you had mentioned earlier about being a student of music.

43:32I think it's one of the things that is so wonderful about working in music is that there is never an end. It's not the top of the mountain. Yeah. You can never learn everything. Because like, even once you master Western classical harmony, it's like, well, now go study like Carnatic music. Like, there's just so much to learn. Oh, my gosh. I have a dream that I've become a very good guitar player still to this day. But then I like keep getting these goddamn nails.

43:57Back to singing. Slide guitar. I don't know. Exactly. But you're pursuing new things.

Writing for the stage

44:02You are working on a musical. Yes. Ten Things I Hate About You. You're doing it with Ethan Griska. Yes. And Lena Dunham's writing the book. Yeah. Jessica Wong, Christopher Wielder, Tom Kipp, Bosner. Your songs are in here. How are you approaching writing for the stage and what are you learning from it? Oh, it is so much fun. It is very unlike this project. Like, day and night and musical, completely different parts of the brain. But at the same time, I think maybe a little bit of my overwriting kind of trained me to

44:32get ready for something like this because of the fact that if somebody said to me, you need to go in that room over there and by the end of the day, you need to give us a song and it needs to be about this, that and that. And you need to include the word orange and cat and cigar all together and make it about trauma. I can kind of do it. It might not be a great song, but it's like a thing that I like kind of love the challenge. And I'm like, I'm going to go make on that song. And this will be sort of fun to have these really hard things that we have to do. You know, it's like not a lot of space to play with.

45:03That's really inspiring to me, actually. So it's almost like jingle writing in a weird way. It's like, I don't know, sell this emotion for this moment. I love that. I think what's really been nice is we've had time for this project to have a little bit of like, hey, can we try to make something like this for this scene? And we get to go back and massage it and rework it and really make sure that it isn't the one day rushed thing, but it's something that we handle with care and that it honors the story and that it all braids and, you know, weaves together in a beautiful way.

45:36And I am surrounded by so much talent and vision. And I, and again, when it turns out, like, when you talk about learning, I'm, I'm absorbing so much from them, just like a grateful little sponge and really happy to be a part of this, like money team.

Rapid fire questionnaire

45:51We're debuting a new rapid fire question period where we just want to hear your, your first, you know. It's like the songwriting we're talking about, Freeform. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. I'm ready. Exactly. I'm ready for you. I'm going to bring myself to a loose place. Oh yeah. Okay. We're going to cool down a little bit. And Charlie, you want to take turns with these? All right. All right. Here we go. Our first question in the, in the Switched on Pop questionnaire is what's your favorite instrument to hear take a solo? Guitar. Guitar. Ooh. I said guitar because I thought of my father playing the acoustic guitar for me as a

46:24child and it just brings nostalgia. But when that saxophone comes on stage, it also, I reserve it for the moments in music when like nothing else will do and we really need to like go there. A song on your playlist that would surprise people? I don't know if it's surprising, but I listened to a great deal of jazz music. Billie Holiday is probably one of the, well, she's actually my favorite vocalist of all time, so I would say all of Billie Holiday's music, yeah. A musical practice that brings you joy that's just for you.

46:58I enjoy singing made up children's songs to my child. I have a hit, a sleeper hit called I Want to Kiss Your Cheeks that my husband is really tired of hearing. The hook is I want to kiss your feet, but they smell like cheese and he giggles. All right, so this one comes from, I interviewed the pianist Long Long recently and he gave me this great tip that was before a concert, he's like, what you got to do is eat a banana

47:29and chocolate. Oh. And I'm like, cool. I've actually been doing this before I've been doing interviews. I didn't do it today. It was too early in the morning. But do you have a go-to drink or snack that is essential for you to either before going out on a show or before a writing session? Well, first of all, banana and chocolate before like performing singing or like performing like... Before he goes out playing piano is what he does. Okay, before piano. Okay, a little potassium, sure. Like, okay, chocolate, a little sugar rush. Okay, I was like, that just sounds like a wild combination for the throat before you go singing. Probably not a singer. But okay, okay. A little throat coat, never hurts. Some honey if you're having a hard day.

47:59I mean, back in the day, I used to like take a little whiskey shot if I needed it to like, because it would really like help with the vocal cords. But I think now I'm more of a throat coat and honey girl. Um, I mean, life on the road, it's not for the faint of heart. So you can sometimes go full week and be like, I haven't seen or smelt or heard of a vegetable. So we will do things like we'll just have like, like bags of spinach that like, it sounds crazy, but we just like take like a handful and like eat that. So it should be like, my body needs it. The emergency spinach in case break.

48:30My body needs it. Like we haven't seen anything green. So there'll be a couple of things like that. But right beforehand, I heard once that if you have like gummy bears, it'll help sometimes too with your vocal cords. I don't know what's in there, but I like gummy bears. So I've told myself that's true. Yeah. I love that people imagine rock stars just like doing hard drugs and, you know, taking handfuls of raw spinach. And they're just eating raw spinach and throat coat in the green room. A little ginger. Yeah. Yeah. You should see my writer. It just looks like I've been to the doctors.

49:02Yeah. First song you learned to play. First song I learned to play on the guitar was, well, there's two. There were the two songs that I wrote, actually. That's kind of how I got into the guitar, first of all. And one was a protest song that I wrote when I was very little called They're Cutting Down the Big Trees. Wow. And the other was my first real attempt of, like, having an emotion that was about a high school crush that I had.

49:33And it was a song called Dear You. And it was a letter I wrote to him. This mysterious man who reminded me of, like, that bad boy in the breakfast club with the earring. I'm forgetting his name. Anyways, no one talked to him. He was a big mister. He played chess. I learned how to play chess so I could approach him. That was my big in. And I wrote him this song called Dear You. And I remember thinking that, like, I'd seen my father play the guitar around the house growing up. So I kind of knew a little bit, but I didn't really know. And I remember finding, like, the chord for D, but I didn't know it was called D. So I was like, look, this is like a W shape.

50:04And it makes the income. My dad was like, let me show you. So he introduced me to, like, all the Elvis Presley, like, pop chords. And that's how I began writing. I kind of have a feeling I might know the answer to this now. But is there a singer whose voice you'd like to live in for one day? I think that there's some incredible, like, Phoebe Bridges has a beautiful heart wrenching voice. I think Billie Holiday has a similar thing. Like, they have this thing where, like, these are, like, once in a generation type vocals. But I feel like if I'm getting one day away from my own voice, I would pick a man's voice because it would just be fun to play with, like, a different, like, I don't know, whole

50:38range. I don't know. So I'm trying to think of who comes to mind. I'm going to have to get back to you. I mean, maybe, like, Ray Charles. That sounds great. Because he can say any one word and give you sugar. It's like Georgia. And you're like, yes. Oh, God.

50:55Carly, thank you so much. This was very delightful. Thank you so much. It was lovely to chat with you both. Thanks, everyone. That was a blast. Thank you. Support for the show comes from Sonos. A great sound system starts with precision engineering, but it also needs a big-picture

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