S3, Ep. 11- Starting Young Dogs & More Ft. Russell McCord

Introduction

0:00I want to welcome to BarrettMountainBC.com, Stock Dog Philosophy Podcast. I'm your host, Ty Spanky Barrett. Joining me, as always, is my brother, Justin. Sugar. Barrett. And regular, our dad, Buford Barrett. I'm here. We've got a very special guest on with us today, Russell McCord. Thanks for joining us, Russell. Hey, glad to be here. Thank you for asking me.

0:23Yeah, so we figured we'd kind of get started with all of our guests in a similar way here. Just, what got you into this sport? Well, training cutting horses back in the 80s. And, you know, if you're working cattle, you need a dog. And so I started using some kind of crossbred dogs, just helped me move cattle up lanes and do stuff. And then somewhere along the way there, in about the mid-80s, I had a customer that gave me a Border Collie. And I didn't really know a whole lot about them at that time.

0:55And so I started using her. And, of course, she'd go around, get in front of the gate and get in the cattle. And you had to figure all that out, you know, just to change positions with her and stuff. But, yeah, that's the way I got started was actually using a Border Collie to help me with my cutting horses.

Stock Dog Trials

1:14And then somewhere along the way I went to the Fort Worth Stock Show towards, I don't know, about 87, 88 or something and saw a stock dog or a sheep dog trial, you know, for the first time. And I was like, whoa, I got to do this. So that's kind of how I got started. Yeah, kind of similar to how our dad did, just helped with the cows and everything else, too. So what got you into the sheep? I'm sorry? You kind of worked the cows at first, right? So what got you into the sheep? Yeah, so, you know, once I went to the stock show and saw the sheep dog competition, I came home and bought me, you know, just a few sheep and started working my dogs over on sheep.

1:55And just kind of, I got real lucky because the second Border Collie I had was a young dog about six months old named Jazz. And he still, to this day, might have been my best dog I ever had. And he taught me probably more than all the other dogs put together. And I ended up selling him, like I do nearly everything. But I sold him when he was about five years old for quite a bit of money to a cutting horse gentleman out of Florida. But that dog helped me tremendously figure out, you know, how to work a Border Collie, number one.

2:28And then he was just exceptional. He could do anything and everything.

2:35Yeah. Yeah.

Dog Training

2:36That's one thing we've kind of talked about a little bit here before, but it's always good to reiterate it is, like, the importance of the first dogs that you have. And you've trained a bunch of dogs and trialed a bunch. What kind of, especially for new people, what kind of dogs would you recommend them start with the puppy or them getting the trained dog? Or what do you think is best for those first couple? Yeah, or some advice for somebody getting their first dog? Well, I think it all depends on your pocketbook, because without a doubt, if you're trying to learn and get started, if you can afford to buy a really broke dog, trained dog, you're just way ahead.

3:14But most people can't. I couldn't either. And you have to start with a young dog. Puppies are a gamble. You know, it's bloodlines, and then it's still a gamble. I like to look at young dogs. I start dogs younger probably than anyone.

3:33But I like to look at dogs when they're about four to five months old and introduce them to sheep once or twice. And if I can find a young dog that I really like, then I'll buy that dog and go on with it. Yeah. So, that kind of takes the puppy gamble out of it. If you can see the dog now at four or five months old, eager and wanting to work, then you take a lot of that gamble out of it. Right, right. Yeah, and that's what we do. We take the, well, I don't start until a little bit later, but we take them out when they're four or five months.

4:07And then we'll, you know, just introduce them. And then once a month or every couple of weeks, we'll go back out and just to keep interest and see when their tail comes down and when they're ready. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you said you start dogs earlier than some.

Starting Dogs Young

4:23So, when do you tend to start them on stock and all that stuff for you? I kind of do things different from everyone. I've talked to a lot of trainers through the years and watch them and stuff. And I'm self-taught. But I start my dogs at, some of them at four and a half months and all of them by five months old now. I don't train a lot of outside dogs. I do take a few every now and then. So, I'm basically working my own. So, when you start a dog that young, number one, they're not fully developed, you know, structurally.

4:56So, you have to be careful with them. So, my goal is I put a down on them on a string, you know, in the yard so that I can down them. And the other thing that I do that's so backwards from everyone else is I never talk to a dog. I always whistle at them. And so, from day one, that dog learns to lie down off my whistle. See, and the reason I put a down on them before I go to stock is not so I could go to stock and lie them down. It's so that I can go to stock and when I'm through working on them, I can lie up down and catch them.

5:31Because if you put a down on a young dog, you know, the first, I find the first three days they think it's punishment. So, they're, you know, resentful. But by the fourth day in the yard, they're like, hey, he just wants me to lie down and he's going to let me get up. So, I hit that lie down whistle and get them to lay down. And then I give them that call off whistle and it releases them. So, when I actually do go to stock, I know that I can lie them down with a whistle and particularly when I get ready to quit and call them off.

6:04So, I kind of, I start them young, but I have some rules that I go by is I put that down on them. And then my little training pen's about, it's probably 60 feet by 50 feet with no corners. I cut the corners out where sheep couldn't wad up in the corner on a young dog. Yeah. And so, my yard is about 100 yards from that pen. So, when I start walking toward that pen, I teach that dog from day one to start looking for sheep. Hey, where's the sheep? Look, look.

6:35And by the second or third day, they start looking at that distance and start finding those sheep. And then we slowly walk up there with them. I've got them on a leash. And then I just get them in that small pen. And what I'm basically trying to do is teach the dog to hold the sheep to me. I don't work knee knockers. You know, a lot of people have puppy sheep. I do not keep them. I keep about anywhere from 75 to 100 sheep all the time. And I just cut off six or eight and start working a young dog on them.

7:08That's what they're going to work their entire life. And that's what I put them on. And I just basically teach that young dog to work for me and with me.

Training Philosophy

7:18I think the biggest mistake most people make is letting that young dog work sheep without you being involved in it. In other words, they learn to self-work rather than work for you. Right. And I think that's so important. And so about the third or fourth day when I walk up there and work them in that little pen, I open the gate and go to the pasture with them. And I make sure that I don't work them very long. And I make sure and don't let them run a lot.

7:49Even when I open the gate and go to the pasture, the least amount of running they can do, the better off I've found to keep them in control, keep them listening. And so I'll open the gate and go out into the pasture. But I immediately back up to the fence and work them in a half circle a little bit. Just teach them how to handle stock and listen to me and be obedient on stock. But I think that the main secret is don't work them too long.

8:19Because if you go out there and you overwork them, get them too hot, get them too tired, no good comes from that. Right, right. Yeah, definitely. Their brains have a limited capacity for working. And it seems like what you're trying to do is get them to activate that brain as opposed to just running around at all, too. So that's kind of the key point of training, getting the most bang for your buck there. It's too many folks go around, around, around, around. All they teach a dog to do is go around sheep. And then when you finally do let the young dog have the sheep to bring them to you, they, you know, they cut up and mess up.

8:55And then you got a mess on your hands. So I just whistle at my dogs. I never talk to them. So from day one, they learn a down. Then they start learning flanks and walk-ups. And within 30 days, they're taking all their whistles. Yeah, so that is kind of a unique thing, start with just the whistles. What got you to, or when did you start, or what made you just start with just the whistles? Because I, my, what I really love to do is train nursery dogs and run nursery dogs. And so it made no sense to me to spend 90 days or four or five months teaching a dog voice.

9:33And then, oh, I, now I got to teach it whistles so I can go trowel it. So I never have to worry about my dogs knowing their whistles or their flanks or anything, because that's all they've ever learned. And then once I get them broke, then I start talking to them. So I do it in reverse. They end up learning the voice commands, but it's the last thing they learn instead of the first thing. So it speeds me up. It allows me to run dogs at 12 months old that, you know, normally I'd have to wait till 16, 18 months old.

10:04Yeah, yeah. That makes sense for sure. Especially with the purpose of years, trying to get those nurtured dogs out. I've never done it like that. I usually do my, well, I start with voice commands, but it's real quick. I go to doing a whistle. Yep. Just to. You'll find if you try it, you'll find, boy, a dog picks it up really fast. I mean, you'll, you'll just be shocked how quick they pick those whistles up. If that's all you're doing is, is whistling at them. Yeah. Yeah. I'm about to try that out then. Yeah. I mean, we have a couple of young dogs. We're going to be starting here anyways. And I think that's going to be something I'm going to want to try.

10:35Cause we all have eight month old puppies that were, uh, planning on starting. I think that's going to be a thing to want to do. But the, the other secret on the young dogs for me is I, I don't, I have the mindset when I go to work one that I'm going to allow him to work. I'm not going up there to make him work. And I think that's a, that's a huge difference in allowing a dog to work versus you're going to listen to me and I'm going to make you go left. I'm going to make you go right.

11:06I just get in a fluid movement with them and they're going around the outside of the sheep and I'm moving around and I don't circle them up. I, I always try to teach them, Hey, your goat is to bring sheep to me in a calm manner. Yep. And if they get too fast, you know, I'll, I'll, anytime they get out of first year, I'll start, you know, barking at, Hey, Hey, kind of scold them down to where they slow back down and start thinking about working. Yeah. That's a great way to kind of get pace initially on these dogs.

11:37Yeah. And eventually lift from way farther off of you. And that's what you just said was something kind of why I started this podcast and named it the stock dog philosophies podcast is it's more about, you know, the philosophy about how you're kind of doing something as opposed to like, do this, do this, do this, but you know, letting the dog work accomplish what you need to. And just, it's tough for someone who's just starting out to learn it, but it's kind of like a dance almost out there where you're moving here, you feel the pressure, let the dog have them a little bit. So yeah, that's some great stuff for sure. I never, I never do the same thing two days in a row, unless I'm having a problem with

12:11it. I challenge them every day. It's like, okay, well, if you can do this, let's see if you can do this. And if, okay, well, if you can do that, let's see if you can do this. And so it's, it's always fun for them because it's something different. It's not just go out there and run around sheep a hundred mile an hour. And, and so I find that keeps them really engaged and keeps them learning. And, and the more you can teach them early on, uh, I think the more they can absorb. Yeah, definitely.

Trial Experiences

12:43So, uh, you go to a ton of trials. Is there a trial that, that's your favorite one to go to? Kind of moving on to different. I beat Meeker with Meeker without a doubt. Yeah. I love Meeker.

12:59What's, uh, tell me about that a little bit. Some of the experiences you've had there. Say, I'm sorry. Tell me about some of the experiences you've had there. Oh, at Meeker. Well, uh, years ago, so my dog trialing career got broke up. I, I went, uh, I started in the mid eighties and then, uh, in 2001, I took a job full time with the national cutting horse association. I stayed there 17 years and then I retired. And so for 17 years, I never owned a dog, blew a whistle, didn't do anything.

13:33I just worked. So I had a big gap in the middle of my career, but back in the mid nineties or late nineties, somewhere in there, I had a dog named Stetson that I made the Meeker finals with, uh, he was a three year old. I made the Meeker finals and the national finals, double lift in, uh, in about a six week span there. Uh, and then shortly after that's when I took the job. So I, I never really got to run that dog hardly at all afterwards.

14:05And, uh, and then I came back in, in 19 when I retired and in 21, I made the Meeker double lift finals again with my dog that I have now cutter that's retired. So, uh, I, I think there was, uh, the last time I went to Meeker, I made the double lift finals with Stetson and not the first time back, but the second time back, I made the double lift finals with Cutter. So that's pretty impressive.

14:36Yeah. Hell, it's the, probably the, the, my favorite thing about Meeker though, is Cutter wanted to go around, uh, with 136 dogs in it at Meeker. I don't know, three, three years ago or something. And, uh, he's, he made the semis, I think three years in a row or four years in a row. So anyway, we've, we've had a pretty good run, not as good as some, but for us, we've had a pretty good run at Meeker still. Still trying to get up there to the top. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned a couple of dogs there.

15:08What are, what's the best dog you've had and what are some, even maybe not the best dogs you've had, but what are some lessons some dogs have taught you? Cause we think, again, especially for younger handlers, newer handlers, like, you know, it's important to learn from your dog. Um, I wished I knew now, I wished I knew back then what I knew now and everyone would say that, but looking back on my life and my dog career, had I, had I known back in the eighties and nineties, what I knew today about dogs, uh, my career would have been completely different.

15:43Uh, it takes you a long time to figure out how to read a dog. And so there's all different type dogs. I've run every kind of dog. I think there is from loose side to way too much. Uh, uh, yeah, everything in between. So you, you have to, you have to figure all that out. But my best dog probably that I've, I've ran to date would have been my old Stetson dog. That's, you know, it's long gone, but, uh, the dog that taught me the most is Cutter.

16:15The dog that I still have today, Cutter, his, uh, Stetson was very talented. He was precision on balance. Uh, he's what I call happy medium. He didn't upset sheep, but he never hung up anywhere. He never eyed up and couldn't, couldn't move sheep. He would just happy medium. And that's what we're all searching for. Because if you can find a dog with precision balance, whether words, they don't just halfway get to a spot and turn in, they find the exact spot to turn in and come.

16:49And then they've got just enough to move sheep without scaring sheep. Boy, those things are hard to find. And Cutter taught me the most because he has none of that. He pulled up short on every outrun I ever sent him on, even though I worked him every day to cover sheep. He'd pull up, he, he hated set out people and he wouldn't go around them. And I would, you know, always have to send him the opposite way or whoever's sitting out. And, um, he had no stamina.

17:20His tongue would just hang outside of his mouth. And, uh, but what, what he had was he would give you everything he had. And like my wife said, he would just kind of run through a brick wall for you. Uh, most obedient dog I ever ran. Uh, but boy, he had way too much eye, not enough presence and not enough stamina, but he had a pretty good career with those three bad holes in him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's one of the key things, especially for someone who's maybe

17:51new to this, is you get a dog that's, that's really obedient, you know, that you have this big relationship with. They're going to go try the hardest for you and listen to whatever you ask, ask them to do. So that's a, it's a huge part for sure.

18:04Yep. Yeah. Uh, I, I want to ask this just cause it's. Uh, you, what, you are one of the few that run at the, the big trials that will actually come to the small arena trials. Is there a, you find there's a problem with your arenas or is there a downfall or. Well, that, uh, me and my wife have had that conversation driving back from a lot of trials through the years. Uh, you got to remember I was a cutting horse trainer and I trained horses in an arena.

18:35So being in an arena, I feel like I'm at home. Uh, yeah, I have figured out in the last few years that for me to win in an arena, I need a weaker dog, a dog that doesn't have strong presence, uh, a dog that's real obedient and one that, one that you can just get up and run hard and fast because when I run one of my, my dogs, it's really good out on a field and, and I'm having to tap the brakes all the

19:08time to steady them up and slow them down. When I get to an arena, they just kind of come undone. And after the second run, you know, they're, they're just, they're, they're just doing a lot of things they wouldn't do out on a field. So I love going to the arena. It's so much tighter in the arena. Yeah. Yeah. And, and a lot of dogs in an arena, you guys run in arena a lot. So, you know, there's a lot of dogs and good dogs, some good, some bad, but some really good dogs won't flank into those solid walls.

19:38Right. Right. You know, they just hesitate. There's like, there's a wall there. Why would you want me to go right? You know? And, uh, and that'll just kill you in a, in an arena trial. So if, if you have the right type dogs, I love arena trials and, and it, the arena trials do not mess those, those dogs up. If you have a really good dog, that's, that's, uh, a little more than happy medium that you're having to slow down on a big field all the time. So I haven't been very successful with that type dog in an arena.

20:11Right. Right. Yeah. Um, and then I know you're, you've done quite a few trials with the pepper dog this year. I was looking it up. Um, I just had a question. How do you know who has the most points in the nursery for like the nursery dog of the year? You can, uh, you can go pull up the standings, you know, and it'll take you to the open on the USB CHA website, you can pull up this, go to trial points and then you, it'll, when it opens a page, it'll be the open and then you can click right there on the top to nursery

20:44and it'll download all the nursery dogs. And then if you click on each individual dog, it'll tell you how many legs they have. And so, uh, it takes a little bit of time, but you know, you know, who's running and who's, who's got the most and, and, uh, the ones that are really running for the perina deal, keep up with it. So you just click on the individual dog and it'll, uh, it'll give you those legs. Okay. And how, um, so I assume you must know where you are in the standings for that.

21:18So are you towards the top of that with the nursery dog? I think I'm sitting second. Uh, I think there's one dog that's got two or three more than I do. I think we're both in the twenties. Uh, I don't think I'm going to keep going. I haven't made my mind up. I'm on run here, uh, through the end of March and then make my mind up whether to keep going or back off. I kind of want to breed pepper. Uh, and I, if I'm going to do that, I need to get those pups on the ground and get her back

21:52going before meek her. So it will depend a lot on when she comes in season. Yeah. Okay.

22:00And then I'm trying to remember where I was going. I was.

22:05So, uh, obviously coming from cutting horses and the trotting before then trotting again, had a big break. What were some of the, some differences maybe in just how trials were set up or some things you had to change in how you, you trained your dogs and kind of in that time period or what are some, some things that changed in that big gap that you had? Well, a lot, a lot of things have changed. The number one thing is the sheep. When I, when I, when I dog trialed the first time there, Texas was, had Rambele sheep and

22:38we didn't, the boar goats had just come over at the, as I'm, you know, getting out of the dogs and, uh, Dorper sheep had not arrived yet. So all we ever worked was angler goats or Rambele sheep. And, and, and it was 90% Rambele sheep. Well, Rambele sheep were real flighty. And so you had to really have square flanks on the dog and, and it was a guiding contest and

23:09not a pushing, you know, walking in slow walking contest. So when I, when I come back this time and I start working dogs again, uh, here's all these Dorper sheep and I'm like, okay, you know, I'm, and so I started out, a cutter was the first dog I trained coming back. I bought him when he was three days old and from Kevin Evans. And, uh, they shipped him over here when he was seven weeks old. So he was the first dog I trained. Well, I trained him like you would work in Rambeleys, which made him too flat.

23:42And it took, it took a little of power out of him and he didn't, he didn't have that much to give up and so once I figured out the sheep had drastically changed, then I had to go back and actually retrain cutter and teach him how to work Dorper, Dorper sheep because you got to get up on top of them and, and push them. Yeah. And so then you're, if your dog's got any grip in it, it'll bring that out. And then you're having to deal with all those issues.

24:12So the sheep would be number one. The courses are the same. Uh, I think the, the one thing that, that I hate is two, two things. One is too many judges allow the clock to be too long. So when you're running a course, if it's a 10 minute course and they set it at 10 minutes, that's going to give everybody a chance. That's going to give the weak dogs, the happy medium dogs and the strong dogs all a chance.

24:42But if you set that 10 minute course at 12 minutes, you allow the weaker dogs to walk those sheep around real slow. Well, panels were set up years ago as obstacles to where you either make them or miss them. Well, if you're going real slow walking because the clock allows you to, you can't miss panels. And then you walk the sheep into the shed ring and they're just lulled to sleep. And you shed them and then walk them over the pen and they're just laid back calm.

25:14So yeah, it would be the same as if you took the 10 minute course and set it at seven and said, okay, well, let's let the hard fast dogs win today. So this, the clock has got to be set accurate so that all the dogs have, have the same chance. And then, uh, the other thing would be the shed somewhere along the way. When I, when I was dog traveling the first time you had to pull a dog in on a sheep and walk that dog off a ways and hold it and demonstrate that you could hold it.

25:46And somewhere while I was gone, they started just calling the sheds for, I mean, somebody holler here and, and the dogs start to come and they holler good. And you know, maybe the dog doesn't come or maybe he turns the wrong way. And they, they just, I don't know what happened to the, the judging on the shedding while I was gone, but it, it really changed. I will say this, I think in the last year or two, it's, it's headed back the other way and getting a, getting a little bit better. And that, that will help our breeding program because I don't know about you guys, but for

26:19me, when I run a dog, it's not a good shedder, man, it's, it's hard to win. And, uh, and if you're running a dog, it's a really good shedder. It makes winning a whole lot easier. So I think shedding is a big part of our sport. Right. Right. I talked to you at, uh, Andy's trial, you're talking about time limit. I talked to you there and about how you like, cause it's the way I like to move my sheep. I like to get them at just, it's above a walk, but it's just a slow trot and they just go straight and if I can get them into that trot, we can go anywhere and we can make time.

26:52Yep. They, that's the way we were taught from, from all the old timers that walk them and trot them, walk them and trot them. Don't walk them and don't run them. You know, just keep them walking and trotting, walking and trotting and, uh, keep that, keep that fluid movement on them. But, you know, too many times today we see the clocks too long and people leaning on the post and, you know, just like we got all day long to get around and that, that probably drives me crazy more than anything. Yeah.

27:23No, I get it. I hear you. I hear you. So kind of stayed on the shed here. What are some, some tips or tricks or what to just tell us about your mindset, I guess, whenever you go to a shed and ring, like what, what are you trying, what's going through your head there? Well, a lot of things and shit. Each dog is like every phase of work is, you know, you got, I've got a dog now that's a really good shitter and I've got a dog. It's not a very good shitter, you know? So, but my young dogs, uh, I've got a dog now that's 11 months old.

27:56I can run a course with him, a pretty big course with him. And, uh, he's already, I've already started pulling him through on like put 50 sheep out and start pulling him through. So I teach them to shed real early, but I do it different. Just like blowing the whistle instead of talking to, I do everything kind of backwards for most people, but I'll, I'll put a 50 sheep out there or a hundred, whatever, and make me a big gap and call that dog through. And then I let him go. I send him on through that gap all the way back around to where he, where he was when

28:30he started. And then I, I do what I call figure eight drill. Yeah. And so I pull him through and go the opposite way, always making him come in behind me. So those dogs learn to come and run and make that circle and go back for where they come from. They just love it. Well, it just in a few days, you don't even have to make a gap anymore. You can just holler here and they just come flying through because they know you're not going to stop them and turn on the sheep. And, uh, I think the, the biggest mistake that people make is practicing shedding at home

29:05like you competition shed that puts way too much pressure on a dog. I've, I've actually run a dog or two myself, you know, doing that with them. Think, well, this dog's not very good shedding and try to make him hold singles and do this and that. So I do that figure eight drill. And then when I get to a trial and I holler here, my dogs are coming hard. And if they come hard, then all I got to do is stop them, walk them up. So that's kind of the way I do it. And I, I start real, real young with them.

29:37So it's, it's just part of their training. They've done, you know, when I get to a trial, they've done it a thousand times. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is just cause I've been, this last few couple of years, I've actually got to trial on some hair, a wool sheep, which I found that I like shedding the wool sheep way better than I do the hair sheep. I don't know if you've had any, is there any difference, but for me that it seems a wool sheep will split way better. Absolutely.

30:08They will. The, I think that the other mistake people make is they don't send her up in the shed ring. They, they don't realize where they're at in the shed ring. And, and so my first goal is to get to the, get my sheep and me and my dog is close to the center of that shed ring as we can get so that we've got room. And then, uh, the other, the other thing is you see too many people, they, they want to shed and they almost get a chance and then the sheep start running a little bit and they

30:40start circling their dog. And then it's just, once you start that, it is really hard to shed. So basically what you got to do, you got to hold your side to start with. You got to, you got 50% of that, that half circle are the words, and you've got to hold those sheep on your side and then let your dog hold the sheep on the other side. And then when you get them, get them to where you can, then call that dog through. But boy, if you start letting a dog run around, around, around, around, you're not only losing

31:11points, you're burning up dog and it's, it's a mess. So yeah. So we say here, kind of with the shed and with the pen, like your best opportunity is going to be that first one that you have before you have to start circling or setting whatever else up. Yeah, definitely. I went to Ireland in 2018 to the international finals and I sit there, I watched every dog for three days and I made notes in a book. But, but so particularly on the shed and, and the guys that walked in that shed ring real

31:42brisk and, you know, crisp and got down there and boy, I'm going to shed and they ended up in, in a mess most of the time. It was a, it was a little 75, 80 year old guys that eased down there real quiet and slept down there before they just shed slick as a button, you know? And I think, I think that's true. You have to, you have to treat your sheep with respect and you got to be calm with them and you almost kind of got to make friends with them, but you still have to tell them

32:13that you're not coming over me and that, you know, cause if they bowl over you, then boy, here goes the dog running around. Yeah. Yeah. So that's shed, shedding's an art for sure. Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned, uh, you know, kind of how the sheep changed a little bit. We mentioned the wool sheep versus hair sheep. Do you have a kind of sheep you prefer to work? The more flightier ones, the ones that are, make you have to fight a little bit more and push a little harder or what, what do you prefer? I like fresh sheep.

32:44It doesn't matter if they're Dorpers or, or wool sheep. Uh, everybody, anybody that's trialed, all you, you guys know. And I know if you go somewhere and their dog broke sheep, it becomes a handler's contest. Yeah. You know, because when you work fresh sheep, fresh sheep suck a dog in and make them quit listening. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's what happens to a lot of dogs and fresh sheep. But, you know, you just don't, it's like a fresh cow for a cutting horse.

33:15You don't get that reaction from a rerun sheep that you get from a fresh sheep. And so to me, the ultimate fun of the whole sport is working a really good dog on fresh sheep because boy, that dog is having to read those sheep and think and stay back off of them, you know, and, and, and outmaneuver the, those fresh sheep. Well, when you get rerun sheep, a dog basically just following them behind them. Yes. They have to flank a little bit, but nothing like on fresh.

33:46So for me, I don't care if they're hair sheep, wool sheep, as long as they're fresh sheep. That's, that's, that's the fun for me. Right. Yeah. Kind of stay in, you know, that idea. Um, I love, you mentioned just how hard it is on the dog and on a handler in those situations to figure out, you know, how to maneuver these and stay straight and all that. Just take me through your walk into the post. What are some things when you're standing there on a drive, cross drive, fetch, whatever,

34:17what are some things that are going through your head? Hopefully we'll have, you know, our newer handlers to have a lot going through their head can learn kind of what you're focusing on.

34:27Well, if I didn't draw up first, you know, and I, when you draw up first, you're just kind of, you're going to have to, if it's a trial field, you know, like Meeker, I've been to a lot, then I, I know that field, like the back of my hand almost.

Changes in Dog Trialing

34:41I know, I know where all the dangerous spots are where a dog can't hear or whatever. But, uh, I try to, I try to watch a few runs before I run to see where the other handlers dogs didn't let, didn't take a whistle and to see where the sheep are getting pulled to, you know, sheep are, sheep are. So reruns in fresh, they're either getting pulled back to where the set out pen, where they came from, or they're getting pulled down to the exhaust pen.

35:11Uh, and so see where the pull is, because wherever that angle, that pull is, you're going to have to position the dog in between that, that line to keep them on, you know, on a straight line. And so, but for me, really, uh, I was telling somebody the other day at Meeker, I, in a, in a semifinals with Cutter, I drew up last, I drew up early one year, made the double lift. And then the next year I drew up last. And the next year I drew up next to last in the semis.

35:44And I don't, at Meeker, boy, the late afternoon draws are hard, hard to make it. But for me and sitting on deck and waiting to go, I'd almost go to sleep sitting there in the chair because I, I, instead of getting, you know, anxious and revved up, I almost do the opposite for some weird reason, I almost get too calm. So when I go to the post, I've already figured out which way I'm sending this dog because all my dogs are different.

36:14I know if I'm going left or right, depends on if that dog overruns or pulls up short will help me make that decision. And then I've already found two or three little spots where other handlers were having trouble. And I just try to treat it like practical work. There's sheep on that hill. I got to get them to me. And when I get them around here, I got to hit those gates over there, these gates here, and then come back and shed. So I just try to keep it simple, just practical work, and don't, don't get too, too nervous

36:45or too wrapped up in it. Yeah, definitely. That's great advice for sure. Keep it, you know, there's just so many variables. You just focus on the, just stuff you can control, you know, that's what I can do. I played, uh, when I was not dog trialing and I was working, I played, 50 to 100 rounds of golf a year. And so I learned to, I kind of self-taught, but I learned how to play golf at a pretty good pace. And so what I learned playing golf, I apply with my dog trialing.

37:15I'm not competing against everybody, all the other handlers and their dogs. I'm competing against the sheep and the cores. Right. Yeah. And that, that, that does a lot of things for me. It allows me to not root against any of my friends, which I hate. And I'm not trying to beat you three guys. I'm just running against those sheep in that field. And I think that helps me keep my mind straight. It helps me think through and make practical work out of it. Right. And like you said, you about fall asleep beforehand.

37:47If you're wound up, that dog would wound up. That dog would be wound up. He's relaxed. Yeah. He's definitely feel your energy. That's for sure. Let me tell you, I have gone to the post wound up before, cause I did not trust the one I was about to release.

38:03I think we've all been there before. I can think of a time or two.

38:08Yeah. That's the key part. But you got to have, got to have trust, especially with these dogs. I mean, you're, you're running some young dogs too, like to develop that trust pretty quickly where you can, you know, expect them to go out and execute and do everything. That's a, that's kind of tough. So, yeah. The people that come, come work with me. I have a few customers that come over and they'll work. And so when they first start coming here, they think I'm doing all this stuff to these dogs to make them listen on the road and stuff. But what they quickly find out is I just make them listen at home every day over and over

38:41and over. They don't know not to listen. Right. Yeah. And so when you're, when you're trailing a dog, you're either teaching it to be obedient when you're away from home or you're teaching it not to be. And so I think that's the biggest mistake I see with, with, with new handlers and other handlers. They run dogs that are not fully obedient. And there's a difference in being mechanical and being obedient. Yeah. And so my dogs, I don't feel like are mechanical, but they're very obedient.

39:16And so too many people blow a stop whistle six times on a top end fetch. And the dog never checks up and doesn't lie down. And they go, oh crap. Now I got to give it a come by. And they give it a come by. Well, you just taught that dog on a road that he could ignore your stop whistle. Right. And you will be months if ever trying to fix that. So when I start running a young dog, when I hit a stop whistle, if they don't stop, we're

39:46that, that game's over. We're, I'll go to the top and we'll make sure. But I, I'm, I'm real cautious about running a, a young dog. That's not ready to run. If they're, if they're running a course at home and being a hundred percent obedient, then I will take them and run them. But if you go blowing a stop or a steady and they don't take it, you're, you're just teaching them, you're just teaching them bad habits in a hurry. And that's one thing I see with a lot of the novice handlers and it's, they don't know.

40:18I, and I tell them the open handlers do this. If that dog doesn't take my command or I feel like he's just pulling me off, I leave, I go get him. Yes. To stop that. I don't want that to ever get started. And they'll sit and fight with that to try to get it, you know, and all they're doing is like you said, teaching him not to take it. Just teaching them to not listen to them. And you know, and they're, on their defense, they're wanting numbers, not letters. You know, they're wanting to get a score, not an RT or a DQ. And, uh, for me, I'm not interested in that.

40:50If I can't place real high and I need to school on my dog, I'll school on them. Right. And then I won't run that dog again. Like if I'm off at a trial and that dog blew me off, then I'll just scratch that dog the rest of the weekend. I get back home and put everything back together. And then maybe a week or a month later, try him again somewhere else. Yeah. I'm not going to teach that dog to disobey on the road. Right.

Choosing a Pup

41:17Yeah. Okay. So we're going to just about finished here. I've got a couple of little like mailbag kind of questions here I found online. So we'll go through a couple of these real quick. And again, you work with a bunch of dogs. So how do you, uh, choose a pup? These are some questions people had. What are some things you look at or a young dog? Like what are, what are some qualities you're looking at before we start with one? Well, puppies, you know, so what I do is, is I sort them and I don't pick a pup.

41:47I sort off the ones I know I don't want for sure. So I, I make, I almost make three piles. So I put, you know, I'll say, okay, put that pup over here on the left. All right. What's, what's this pup? And they'll tell me about that. Okay. Put him over on the right. And then when I get down to the two or three that's left in the middle that I chose, then I make a decision out of there, I, I look at a little puppy and try to visualize him as a grown dog because I've had dogs before that were fox footed in the back and great

42:18big feet in the front. And, you know, you want to make sure that dog's good and balanced. And if it's, if it's hot summertime, uh, and they're six, eight weeks old and I can get them out and get them to follow me and, you know, chase a rag or something and get them hot so you can kind of take a look at their tongues. Uh, the tongue will tell you a lot about a dog. If it's, you know, dogs with no stamina, the tongue falls out to the side and hangs way down and dogs with stamina.

42:48Then when you get them hot, that tongue will stay in front of them, stay in their mouth. So if you can see a lot of that on a, on a little young, young dog, if the weather's hot and, uh, just things like that. But I try to sort to make sure and not pick one that I know is, you know, either shy or the bully or, you know, stuff like that. I've had, I've had really good luck through all the years picking runts. And I, I never just say, I never just say, give me the run, but the run always ends up

43:20in that middle pile for some reason. And I've had about five or six of my best dogs have been runts. Yeah, it kind of works that way. My best dogs have been dogs nobody wanted, nobody picked and I was left with. So I, okay, we'll go that way.

43:41Yeah. So again, here's the next one. Uh, how do you train fitness into your dogs? You run a lot of big trials and kind of all over. So, uh, how do you, how do you get your dogs to have the stamina for some of those big trials and double lifts? So it, it depends on the dog. Let's, let's take two types of dogs. One, it's got a lot of eye that doesn't have a lot of stamina and one that's real loose eyed that has no tension at all, just walks in on sheep. And so the dog with the dog with a lot of eye, I'm having to give a lot of hard walk ups

44:12and the dog that's real loose eyed, I'm having to step on the brakes all the time. Okay. So the dog that, that's real loose eyed that I'm having to steady all the time because he's wanting to bring sheep too hard, too fast. I don't get them in too good a shape. You get them in too good a shape. It's, you know, they are hard to hold. But it's the, it's the dog with all the eye that, that doesn't have the stamina that burns that energy up because of their eye that I have to really try to get into shape, especially

44:43going to a double lift trial. So I, I think it's like football. You can get in good a shape as you want to, to play football, but until you play football, you're not really in football shape. And I think sheep dog trialing is the same way. You can run them off a four weather or a horse or whatever for as long as you want to. But until you work sheep for 30 minutes, they're not really in trialing shape. So I, I do all my work on sheep and if it's a, if it's a dog with a lot of eye that's burned

45:17up a lot of energy and at 12 to 14 minutes, he's, his legs are getting, you know, weak on him. I'll put him up and go get him in two hours and go again. And, you know, down here in South Texas, it gets hot. So, you know, I'm working at daylight, but I think you have to work sheep to get them in trial, trial shape. No, I completely agree. It's not just about like the stamina of them moving. It's more about that brain being engaged for 30 straight minutes.

45:47Sometimes you're doing those big double lifts. Yeah. I can get them chasing a four wheeler and they'll, their tongues will never drag out, but I can put them on sheep for 15 minutes and you can start to see the wear or tear. Yeah.

46:00Well, uh, Justin's got one for you. So you were talking earlier about running towards the front at Meeker and towards the end. What is your preferred, a trial that's an open, that's going to be doing all like, you know, it's got 60 dogs and it runs all day. What is the time of day that you would prefer to run, you know, that you like the most if there is? About mid morning, uh, for, for several reasons. One, the weather's usually cooler. And if, if I can run when the grass is wet, dogs hear really good when grass is wet, when

46:32it dries out late in the middle of the late afternoon, the grass starts making noise, you know, and usually the wind kicks up and stuff, but mid, mid morning, I don't like being in the first 10 because especially the first day of a trial, the judge, I know this from all my cutting horse judges. When you first get up there the first morning, boy, you're just critical as heck. And, uh, you know, take a point here, take a point there, take two points here. That same run in the middle of the afternoon, they don't, they're not even taking those same

47:05points because they, the judges settled in, they've seen enough runs now, you know, they kind of, everything's, everything's settled in. So I think around mid morning, somewhere between 10th and 20th, if I could just handpick my draw every time would be where I would, I would draw. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like human nature. I mean, you hope judges can be the same every time, but yeah, human nature, like seeing different runs, different looks at stuff. And after you do a few, you just kind of naturally become a little bit more receptive

47:37to it. Absolutely. I've, I've seen it on both sides. And so when I judge, I try to remind myself of that. Hey, don't be too critical on these first few runs now. Just, just try to, you know, don't pick them apart.

47:53Yep. Well, uh, this was great. I think we, uh, we learned a lot from this as well. Like you gave us a new idea to look at some stuff. So, uh, Russell, we really appreciate you, you being on with us. You were a terrific guest. Appreciate you coming on. Well, thank you for having me. Yep. Have a good one. See you guys. All right. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care. Take care.

48:23Take care. Take care.