S3, Ep. 8- 50th Episode Spectacular feat. Angie Coker Sells

Introduction

0:00Hello and welcome to BarrettMountainBC.com, Stock Dog Philosophy's podcast. I'm your host, Ty Spanky Barrett. Joining me as always is my co-host, my brother, Justin. Sugar. Barrett. And joining us is our dad. I'm here. Buford Barrett. And we have a very special guest on for our 50th episode right here, national champion, Angie Coker Sales. Hello. Thank you guys for having me. Now, is it true you're the only Okie to ever win it?

0:33Well, that's probably true. There we go. Yeah, the most important part, fellow Okie, Angie Coker Sales right there. Yeah, yeah.

Getting Started with Dogs

0:43So, you've been into the dogs for a pretty long time. So, just tell us a little about how you got started with the dogs. I was working for some cutting horse trainers and border collies were always running around and I happened to get a pup. And a trainer that I was working for, he had border collies and he actually trained them. And I traded out riding some colts for him to train my dog.

1:15And I think he put about 60 days on her. And, you know, she was a good outrunner. She wasn't a phenomenal dog, but she was a great dog to begin with. And that's really what got me hooked and got my start with them.

Early Training

1:38After college, I lived on a ranch and was kind of afforded the opportunity to train dogs and see how far I could, you know, could get with them, I guess. And I got another pup and started taking in some dogs for training and started trying to figure it out. And I think besides reading books, that's mostly what I did was read training books and watched some videos and really just the opportunity to go out and work different dogs

2:12and gain the experience with the background of the Working Border Collie magazine.

Influence of Working Border Collie Magazine

2:17Then I had all the articles from Tommy Wilson and, you know, different trainers. So I'd always just inhale those articles, you know, just read everything I could and then go out and try to apply it.

2:34Yeah, definitely. That's one of the things that's kind of changed over time now is that there's a lot more like, you know, videos you can go to. The clinics are much more available. And so I've been able to find ways to grow for sure. It's easier now. Oh, it's so much easier. Yeah, I had to buy books. And, of course, the Working Border Collie magazine was, you know, everybody was waiting at their mailbox for that.

2:59But it's so much easier today, you know, to watch videos. And that's, you know, such a great tool to learn from. But, you know, I think the biggest teacher for me was experience and, like I said, being afforded the opportunity every day, you know, to do it and to have sheep and have property where I could go out and train a dog and figure things out. Yeah, yeah. That is a big help.

Importance of Experience

3:30Yeah. That's kind of what we've talked about on here a lot is just going out there and getting the miles in, whether it's at your place or somewhere else, just trying to learn and make mistakes on your own. It's a lot easier to learn that way than trying to figure it out, you know, just hypothetically in your head. Oh, yeah. You know, that's the thing about the sport today. There are so many people in it that don't have their own sheep. And they might get to work their dog once a week or, you know, once every two weeks. And some dogs, that's okay.

4:01You can get by with that. But a lot of dogs, especially starting out when you're training them, they need that repetition to get them, you know, get them further along and down the road. But it's doable and a lot of people do it. And that's their hobby and their enjoyment. Yeah, for sure.

Favorite Dog

4:24So it kind of starts you off with maybe an easier question right here. What's your favorite dog you've had and why is it your favorite one? Oh, gosh. The favorite dog, that's really hard because I've had a lot of dogs. You know, I started doing this in like 1992. I would, I don't know that I have a favorite because, gosh, I love them all.

4:51I think I could look at it more in terms of which one taught me the most. And I would have to say that would have been my old sweep dog. He really. Okay, yeah, I like that idea. Yeah, he taught me the most, you know, because he would read the sheep and he would be over here holding pressure and I learned to recognize that. And I think that's so important today for people to recognize what their dog's telling them. If they've got a dog that's got some natural ability and he's telling you where that pressure

5:23is, if you're not able to read the sheep and read the pressure and you've got a dog that can read that, you know, that's what you need to learn to pick up on. Hey, what's that dog telling me about those sheep? Uh, so I would say he probably taught me the most about reading sheep because I didn't grow up with sheep. I didn't get sheep until I was, um, in my early twenties. I grew up with cattle on a cattle ranch and, you know, riding, cutting horses and that kind of thing, which helped me tremendously in just being able to read stock.

5:54But, uh, sheep are, sheep are smarter than cattle, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Sheep Trialing

6:00So, so what got you into the sheep trialing aspect of it then, if you were around cattle at first? You know, at first I think I, I thought I would do the cattle trials and probably went to a couple of them, um, just small ones, you know, in an arena. Um, but then I got into the, you know, the sheep, the sheep trials were more, more, uh, prevalent then and, um, you know, I liked competing and I wasn't doing the horses anymore.

6:33And, uh, it just fit, you know, fit into, to my life. And I kind of already had the, the background in terms of training and, and how to train something, you know, the repetition and the, uh, the process. So it just, it just really fit into, to my life at that time. Yeah. And it makes a, it makes a lot of sense. And it's a lot cheaper to get into at first because it's cheaper. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

7:03The dogs and the, the dogs and the sheep are definitely cheaper than the horses. Um, yeah. And it was fun. I was just fascinated by these dogs. I was just so fascinated. I can remember that trainer that I was working for, you know, he taught that dog, he, he'd tell it to stand and lie down and, and could tell it which way to go. And I was just like, that is the coolest thing I've ever seen. So I was, I was pretty hooked on it and, uh, and then found, found a way to do it every

7:34day. And, uh, you know, like I said, I liked competing. I used to show horses, so, um, it was just a good fit. Yeah, for sure. So, uh, kind of circling back to something you said, uh, a little bit ago about how sweep was a dog that really taught you quite a bit.

Advice for New Handlers

7:53One of the things we try to do on this podcast is really kind of focus more towards people who are just getting into the sport or who are just starting to figure some stuff out. Um, and so what would you, like, what kind of dog would you suggest, um, maybe style or whatever, uh, for someone as their first dog, do you have any kind of words of wisdom you give people? Yeah. You know, that's a, that's a really good question. Um, I would have to say it depends on somebody's, uh, lifestyle and their situation, uh, and then,

8:27and their goals too. I mean, everybody wants a pup, almost everybody wants, wants a puppy. They think that's just the grandest and it is, and, and I love puppies. Um, but a puppy is a crapshoot. You know, we all know that's a 50, 50 roll of the dice. And the best thing you can do, uh, is, you know, have a good background on the parents. Are the parents good, trained, successful working dogs? That's certainly the first step. If you want a puppy, if you want to go that route, but you still have to realize you've

8:59still got a 50, 50 chance of this dog being what you want it to be. And then I guess the next thing is, do you want to train that dog when it, when it gets, you know, 10 to 12 months of age, are you going to be capable of, of working it and going through that process? Do you have the right sheep? Do you have the right, you know, pen? Do you have the field? Do you have access to that? Uh, that's a really important piece of the puzzle. And if you don't, then you need to find somebody to maybe send that dog to, to work for, you

9:36know, 30, 60, 90 days. And they should be able to tell you, you know, within a month or two, if the dog is, you know, going to have some potential. Yeah. You know, to be what you want it to be. If your goal is to trial, if it's not, it may still be a good farm dog or using dog. But, um, and I've found before too, that sometimes the initial test is not, you know, they need to mature a little bit more. So, and then the other, yeah, for, you know, sometimes they're not all mature at 12, 12

10:10months old. And that's about the age I take outside dogs into train is about 12 months because the repetition here is going to be five days a week, you know, four or five days a week. And they have to be mentally and physically mature enough, you know, to do that. Yeah. But then the other route, if you don't want to go the puppy route, of course, is to find a, um, a trained dog or a well-started dog. And if you don't have the sheep or the facilities, you know, that's a really good route to go.

10:44Um, and it'll get you right into the game. And I would, if I had to recommend, which, you know, if someone came to me and said, Hey, I want to do this. I really want to compete. I know livestock a little bit. You know, I was road horses or raised around cattle. Um, I can afford to buy a trained dog. Um, that's the route they need to go. Yeah, for sure. You know, that's the route that this sport is hard enough without trying to train your own dog and figure it all out.

11:15And I mean, figure it all out. Yep. If you've got a, if you've got a solid trained dog, that's going to put you a little bit more on the fast track to learning, um, and being successful. I mean, this, you know, we have so many variables. We have the sheep, you have the field, you have the dog, you have the weather. Um, there's so many variables in this sport and it, it, it ultimately depends on your situation and your goals and, and certainly your finances. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

11:46We've kind of talked about that a lot. It makes me feel good that you kind of repeat a lot of the points that I've said, uh, kind of throughout just that it's going to be helpful because you can learn from the dog so much. So having a starting dog early on is a huge advantage. And me and Justin, we kind of got that a little bit because our dad helped us through the whole time we're starting our first dog. We kind of trained the dog. We also had him kind of helping this. So that was a kind of a, a benefit we got both ways there, but not everyone gets that. Yeah. That's, you know, that's huge is if you are going to train your own dog is

12:17having access to somebody regularly that can help you through that process and keep you from making, you know, making big mistakes that become big problems. Um, you know, and there are dogs, there are young dogs that are, that are ultra talented. I mean, they're just, uh, really talented. And if you get ahold of one of those for your first dog to train, um, you know, that's bonus. You hit the jackpot with that, but they're all not, you know, they're all not what I call,

12:49I call 90 day dogs, the, the super dogs, the, the scary, the scary good ones in the beginning. And, and you've got to be really careful with that kind of dog, um, because you can push them too far too fast and, uh, without realizing, you know, what you've done and then you've got another problem.

Training Over Time

13:10Right.

Training Over Time

13:10Yeah. So, uh, kind of moving into training here a little bit, what are some, some things you've learned training or just some things you've done differently just kind of over time here in your 20 plus years training dogs? Um, well, I would say probably I use, um, use a small pin for starting dogs a lot more than I used to. Um, I used to use kind of a, I don't know, uh, an arena, you know, kind of like a horse arena

13:48and some dog broke sheep. Dog broke sheep are critical. Yes. Um, that is critical. Uh, but I use a smaller pin, I think, uh, initially that's, you know, like a 12 by 12 pin or something like that. And I keep a dog on a line and I just get them, I get them to a little bit more in their head. I would say, you know, respecting me and, and, and that situation is not for every dog, that small situation with, you know, six or seven sheep in there.

14:20Um, can be a little bit much for some dogs. And I think that's part of being a good trainer is you've got to recognize when this is not going to work for that dog and you've got to change, change it to fit that dog. Yeah, that's a, that's a really big part of it for, for sure. Just trying to understand like what's going to work, what's not going to work. Cause like you said earlier, there's so many, so many variables in every situation, you know,

14:50especially on a young dog. And like you said, dog broke sheep is a huge, important piece early on because that's one less variable you have to worry about, you know, the wild puppy. Yeah. There's enough chaos. Oh, that's the, yeah, that's the truth. You've, you've got to start out with the appropriate sheep. And then really the, the next thing is, is once your dog starts advancing and catching on, um, there'll be a point in time where you have to recognize these sheep are actually,

15:22these puppy sheep are actually wrecking my dog. Right. Um, because they'll, they'll destroy the top of the outrun because they never give your dog the opportunity to cut, actually learn how to cover and lift, you know, they're always coming to you. So you have to be aware of that. Um, so that's. Yeah. So how do you go about doing that? I guess you have, uh, just a small herd just for starting dogs and you move on to the different,

15:52different herd or what's your. Yeah, I've got, you know, I don't ever keep, um, sheep year after year after year for training. You know, we run, um, about 200 white Dorper ewes. Uh, we lamb in the spring and then, you know, when we wean, then I'll start bringing in some of those lambs to work and I'll just, I'll mark a couple of them and make those my puppy sheep for the, for the period of time that they're here. And, um, then whenever they're ready to mark it, then they go and I usually keep back some

16:30ewe lambs, um, for replacements and then they become the new, I'll mark some of those for the new puppy sheep. So I don't ever, you know, they get dog broke, they get kind of dog broke and then I'll move up to the next level. Some that haven't been worked as much. Um, and it's, you know, that's a huge benefit in training is to have access to that many sheep and, um, you get, you get those fresher lambs and that's when the sheep can help teach

17:00your dogs. So generally how long are your sessions each time with the dog? Not, not very long, especially starting out when I start in what I call it kind of a packed pen where I've got them on a line with me and, and probably keeping them close beside me and just getting them comfortable going in between the fence and the sheep and lying down and changing directions. That session initially the first, um, two or three times might be, you know, might be 10

17:34minutes, you know, it just, and if they do really good, then I might move them out to the little bit bigger area and let them go around a little bit. Um, but I would say rarely do my sessions ever last over 15 minutes. Um, even when I get them out in the field and, and start working on things, um, I've found that once these dogs get hot and they get tired, no good comes from trying to. Yeah, the brains turn off a little bit and not retain the information.

18:07Yeah. So usually, and you know, if you, if you, sometimes I'll do maybe 10 minutes, put them up, work a few other dogs and then come back and, you know, work again on something if I felt like it's needed. But, uh, and I always try to end on a good note, you know, I always, if I'm having an issue with something, um, I'll work on it a little bit and then try to, try to end on a good note that I think that's really important. Um, and I, you know, want to be positive with them too.

18:38Right. Yeah. That's what I finally got across to these two knuckleheads over here. Like, you know, whenever you're trying to, to work dogs all at the same time, you know, and you've got a couple of dogs and there's three of us and they got a couple of dogs too and they take 45 minutes on their run. It's the time I get to go. So I've, I've finally got them where they're, they're about five, 10 minutes and then they're good to go. So we've got them trained. Yeah. I think, I think the quality of your session is so much more important than the quantity. I, I, I had these, we went over this, these, these two and I try to keep it to about a

19:14minute a month. So if he's a 12 month old dog, we're going about 12 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's probably a good rule of thumb. Um, the only time I really get into working dogs, you know, much over, uh, 15 minutes is when I'm trying to build stamina in my open dogs for the double lift and stuff like that. And then I'll, you know, work them for maybe 30 minutes and that's not constant work. It may be some long drives and then some shedding where international style shedding where you're

19:50lying down and, and doing this and doing that. But, um, it's physically exhausting on those. Yeah. Yeah. But I think they have, you have to get, if you're going for that level, you have to keep them engaged on the sheep, um, just for their, you know, for their brain, see how their brain can handle that, that much. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Handler Preparation

20:13All right. Um, as a next question, I want to know how valuable do you, are the dogs to daily life on the ranch and that, that side of it? Oh gosh, they're, they're, they're critical. I mean, they're, you know, we, we could do what we do without dogs because there are people that, that don't, that have sheep and they don't have dogs. I mean, you, you can break them to a bucket of feed, but, um, my goodness, there are so

20:45many times when a bucket of feed wouldn't have done the job I needed done, you know, just like during lambing or something. Um, uh, and I'll give you, I got a good story. Um, and this is be a good example for that. Um, when I lived in Southeastern Oklahoma, I had some lambs, uh, some wool lambs and they were down in the river bottom and coyotes got in there and ran two of them across the river. And this is a, it's, you know, it's the Poto River.

21:17It's, uh, it's not like the Canadian river. It's not that wide, but it's a, you know, it's a decent river. And I go down there and I go to the edge of the, the bank there when it's pretty steep banks, you know, it's, you know, how steep river banks are, what, maybe 30 feet or something, 20, 30 feet, 30 feet. Um, and I look across the river and there's three of my wool lambs across the river. They had, they had to swim across it. And I had, I had my old Sam dog that, yeah, that I'd won.

21:51He was a nursery champion and open champion. And I was like, huh, I wonder if, I mean, that's a bucket of feed would not have got those sheep open. No, definitely not. We've, you know. We've been there a time or two as well. And I thought, huh, he saw them. And so I told him, come by. And he went down that bank and swam across that river and went up the other side and went around those three and finally convinced them to come down that, that bank and swim across

22:23that river. Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah. It was, it was pretty unbelievable. But the only thing I was kind of worried about was he was gaining on them because they were wool lambs and he could swim a lot faster than they did. And I was like, well, what am I going to do with that? You know? If he gets a hold of one out there. Yeah, I didn't swim right up on their back or something, but, uh, but it worked out. But, you know, so, you know, that's just, that's just one situation where those dogs were

22:54just, I mean, they're just priceless. Um, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine not having them for it. I didn't even know they could swim. And we were doing, uh, demos at a Celtic festival and using Susan Bennett's crazy sheep. Uh, and, uh, she let them get too far out and they split up, went through the crowd. And I had the, my carmy dog, well, one of them got in the pond and I sent her around to bring it. Well, they, it took off swimming across the pond. I didn't even know they could swim. And then when it got the other side, she decided that was so much fun.

23:25She swung around and bit it on the nose and he went back the other way. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I didn't know they could swim. I learned that live on the job that day. Yep. Yep. Yep. I think I learned that too. One time someone had come to early on in the early years, come to work dogs and their dog ran, ran one off into the pond and then the dog proceeded to get in the pond and swim around after it. And I was like, well, I don't think I've ever seen anything like that before.

23:56Well, that's probably a pretty safe place for it to be because I'm not, I'll be honest with you, I ain't jumping into a pond to get on with a dog. Well, if it's, if it's a wool sheep, if it's a wool sheep, it's, you know, their, their time in there is probably a lot more limited than a hair sheep. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. He was talking about being helpful on the farm. You'd think I'd be better with the dogs because I grew up being the dog. Yes. So you can get by without it, but I wouldn't have suggested.

24:27No, no. I, I was, I was too, when I'd help my daddy tell me to get over, get in the gate, get out of the gate. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, walk us through, kind of move on to some trolling talk here, just some of your thoughts as a handler. So, uh, what are, what are the things that kind of go through your head kind of before a run or maybe as you're walking to the post? We'll kind of start there. Um, well, you know, I usually, depending on what, what trial it is, if I've ever been

24:58there before, I usually walk, walk the field. I'll walk, you know, out to the set out and try to get a, get a feel for what my dogs can see on the outrun and try to determine which way I want to send. And, and then I'll watch somebody walk the, uh, cross drive and try to pick out some markers, uh, for the cross drive, you know, to let me know where I need to be. Um. Yeah, that's the hardest part visually, just trying to find a thing. It really can be, yeah, that cross drive.

25:29Um, and then I'll usually, if I didn't drop first, um, I like to watch some dogs run, uh, to kind of get a feel for where those sheep want to go. Are they really pulling to the exhaust? Are they really pulling back to the set out? And just kind of try to develop a game plan to how to handle the sheep, you know, by watching how they're responding, uh, to different dogs. Do I need to keep, you know, and every dog's different. So you might have a dog that puts off a, you know, a really, uh, strong presence and the

26:04sheep are scared and they've got to keep that dog far, far away. Um, whereas another dog might be able to get really close to those sheep. Yeah. So, unless you know the individual dogs, you may not, you know, you may not know exactly until you get your dog on them. But you can probably get an overall feel for if they are really wanting to run or if they're really heavy or if they're pulling somewhere. Yeah, somewhere, yeah. You have a preference for going to trials of bull sheep or, or hair sheep, or it doesn't matter.

26:38It, you know, it doesn't matter as long as they're good sheep. And when I say good sheep, um, that means that they're, they're not really, really sour in, in terms of they want to just run like crazy somewhere or run to me. I like sheep that will give your dogs a chance to actually come around on top if your dog's appropriate on the outrun and lift and, you know, allow your dog to have to work, um, and,

27:11and not be, you know, like Jersey cows that just, um, walk the course. You know, all you got to do is keep your dog behind them and, and keep your line straight and all is good. I like sheep that are kind of fresh, that have not been dogged a whole lot, that kind of test, you know, test your dog's ability and, and a handler's ability.

27:36Yeah, definitely. That's kind of the, I, uh, I, I hadn't got to work a whole lot on wool sheep and we went to, uh, the Knox's last winter and working on their practice lamps. Oh yeah. They, it was, they pin, ended up working on them out in the fields. It's, it's sheep, sheep, but when we got to the pin, they were so much different than the hair sheep. Oh yeah. Uh, yeah. And you know, and that's, um, a great point is those are Chevy, it's North country Chevy,

28:07it's, and they're going to act a lot different than rain shoes. In Colorado or Utah. Right. You know, those Chevy, it's are going to be, you know, super touchy. Whereas the, the Western sheep, as we call them, the Ramblay Merino crosses are going to maybe lean on your dog a little bit more, you know, on that fetch. They may really pull to one side or the other and really put a lot of pressure on your dog to have to come around to the shoulder and cover them.

28:40Whereas those Chevy, it's, you just get in the picture and they're going to turn. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of fun working on them. I just, I'd never worked on them before and it was just totally different. Yeah. Yeah. They are. They are really fun. Yeah. And if I had, you know, if I had the perfect world, I would have some, some Ramblays and I would have some Cheviots. And the closest thing I've found to perfect for, for my situation are these white Dorpers.

29:12Um, when I first started with the dogs, I had Dorsets and that's what these Dorpers came from originally was a Dorset. Um, so they're really great for training. Uh, I like Katahdins, but the Katahdins seem to run a little bit too much, um, and not settle down quite as well. Uh, these Dorpers are tend to settle a little bit, a little bit easier. So, obviously trial kind of all around, uh, been a bunch of big trials, lots of different

29:47types of stock. Uh, what are some, some ways that, that you're able to be successful in all these different kinds of stock, you know, able to make the adjustments and stuff like that? I, I think it just goes back to, um, you know, having, I've got access to fresh lambs and they really will test your dog. You, you really need, uh, I think that's a really important part of when you start going to, to bigger trials or open trials that are going to have difficult sheep, you find some

30:21sheep that are going to test your dog and see if your dog will still mind when those sheep are not just coming right to you like, like dog broke sheep do. Uh, that's, that's a whole nother level, uh, you know, when you're on fresh sheep, it's just, if you haven't given your dog that experience on, on sheep that have not been dog broke or really dog broke, um, you're failing as a trainer, uh, because it is ultimately up to

30:51us to give our dogs the experience and the tools in their toolbox to handle those difficult sheep. And we, you know, by having these lambs that we run these lambs at our trial, um, you know, they're not going to come right to you. They're going to, they're going to push on your dog. They're going to, you know, try to go to the right on the fetch. And if your dog hasn't had experience with something like that, he's not going to be able to come on around and cover and hold that line for you.

31:25Um, and so those are the kinds of things that I look for when I start trying to prepare a dog is how are they going to handle these fresh sheep? Am I still going to be able to stop them? Am I still going to be able to flank him on around and get him to cover? Um, you know, when it doesn't feel like he wants to. Yeah, definitely. This is kind of the marks of a really good dog. Like is it willing to do some of the really challenging parts of the sport? Sure. Oh yeah. I mean, you know, when you talk about dogs and what you, what you like in a dog or what

31:57you look for in a dog, for me, um, well, certainly, you know, the first thing is they've got to be keen and want to work. Um, but they need to be, they need to be obedient. That's probably besides keenness and wanting to work. The obedience is, is the first thing that you have to have, because if you can't get them to stop, you got nothing. Yeah. So how much of that do you do kind of before you start to work a dog, just on down, stuff like that?

32:27Yeah. You know, you're talking about one of the things that I, I do more of now, and that's probably one of the things I do more of is, is get my pups to maybe stopping or lying down or at least know what stand is, um, a little bit before I start taking them to stock. Um, you know, and so I, I have found that dogs are either going to be good stoppers or they're not. They're going to either want to stop or they're, or they don't. Um, and I'll tell you the ones that want to stop, I mean, they are, you know, so nice to

33:03work, but you have to be careful, um, if they are keen to stop, that you don't use that as a crutch and get them shut down too much. Yeah. Right. And take that forward away from them. Because a lot of times those dogs that, that stop really, really well and want to slow down or rate stuff are the ones that you can slow down too much. Um, and, you know, recognizing that just comes from experience of working lots of different dogs and going, Ooh, this one really wants to stop good.

33:35I need to, you know, it's trying to get a little cautious. I need to be careful and just kind of let it roll a little bit. Um, but then the other thing you look for is, you know, natural ability, you know, I don't, you don't have to have a lot of natural ability. And, uh, it's nice when, especially for people starting out, if they've got a dog that'll kind of take care of them and kind of read the sheep and, you know, cover for them when they're not right. Um, but the flip side of that is a dog that you've got to help, uh, be where he needs to

34:08be. And that puts a lot more pressure on you to read your sheep and, and put that dog where he needs to be almost every time. Yeah. And, uh, I've kind of said on here a lot, it is really helpful to have a dog with a lot of, uh, ability, especially by the time you get to an open level on your four or 500 yards away. You kind of have to have them take care of you a little bit up top there. Like there's just something they can't do. Yeah. It is, it is really, you know, really helpful if, if you've got a dog that can read the sheep

34:40and, and if, if he can't, that's okay if he's a good listener, you know, and you know, I want, I want him to take a flank 400 yards away if I tell him to, then they have to be, uh, able to do that regardless of what they're feeling. Um, it's just really hard sometimes, but, um. Yeah. I don't know how much, this is just a different story. Mental preparedness has to do with it, but it was at your trial and you may remember it.

35:11It's been several years ago. I had a kidney stone and I came to the trial anyway. I was. Oh yes. Yes. Neither one of my dogs listened to anything. The Nova dog wouldn't even outrun.

35:23I'm like, what? She'll do three times this far. Why won't she outrun it? She just wouldn't do it. And I was like. She knew you should get away with it. They're pretty smart.

35:35They're pretty smart. I don't, I don't remember. Would she not even go cast out or she just looked at? She cast about halfway and looked back and just. It was like. And took straight off up the field, I think. Yeah. And then took straight off up the field. And I'm like, you know. And she's never done that. Oh.

35:52But. Yeah. Okay. So we've been. We've got to start this segment where we've done a couple of questions out of this. Kind of mailbag I've built up looking through different, you know, Facebook groups or discussion boards and stuff like that. So I'm going to. Got two last questions for you. Uh huh. And the first one here is. What are some handling mistakes that you see new handlers make? Hmm. Handling mistakes, huh? Or training mistakes for that matter. Or just some mistakes you see new people make.

36:23Well, I can do both of those. Yeah. The training mistake would be taking your dog to the trial before it's ready to trial. And that starts an awful downward spiral really fast. Um, if your dog's not, well, if my dog is not taking about 95% of the flanks I give it, um, and I know I can, like on a cross drive and you ask for an off-balance flank. But I know I can get him stopped and verbally get him through it.

36:55Um, and he's solid on his outruns. You know, if, if I feel really good at home and I could get through a course at home with a dog, then I think, and I take it maybe to a friend's house and work it and it does fairly well there. Then I feel pretty comfortable that this dog's probably ready to go to the trial. Um, if I send it on the outrun at the trial and it ignores me on the fetch, you can bet I am leaving that post because that is the worst thing that, that you can get started is that dog just checking out.

37:29At a new, at a trial, you know, I've never been there before. Um, that's the pattern that you're going to have if you don't, uh, shut that down. Yeah, right. That's probably the, one of the worst training mistakes you can make, um, in terms of trialing and readiness. And then the, you know, the other thing, um, and it, it goes back to training is, you know, you want your dog to be blindly obedient. And that's what I work towards.

38:00I work towards my dog being blindly obedient and doing everything I say. Uh, that doesn't mean I'm making it mechanical or any, it just means that it's doing what I ask when I ask it. It's still, you know, hopefully can feel and read the stock and help me out, you know, and hold the pressure. I'm not making it mechanical. I'm just making it obedient. And if I don't have that, I've got, you know, I'm behind the eight ball already. But so when I get that dog blindly obedient, then I go to a trial, I'm going to watch my sheep.

38:32Because if I'm looking at my dog while I'm trying to run the course, I'm going to be late every time I tell that dog to do something. And that's probably the single hardest thing for people to do is to watch the sheep and not their dog. But you have to back up to when you're practicing and training, what are you doing in training? And are you working towards making that dog blindly obedient where you know it's going to do what you say? So when you get to that point, when you get to the trial, you feel comfortable.

39:06You know, young dogs are still hard and tricky, but you feel relatively comfortable that you can focus a good portion of your eyes onto those sheep. You know, you can focus on those sheep and help that dog be in the right place at the right time and stop when he needs to stop. Yeah, this is a great moment of great minds think alike. I was literally just about to ask you, in a run, how much do you look at the sheep versus look at the dog?

39:36I will, with my open dogs, I'll run the course and never look at the dog. Yeah. Never look at the dog. I mean, you'll see them in your peripheral vision. Now, at the shed or at the pen, you know, I might need to lock eyes with them for a minute. But it would be briefly because it's very critical at, you know, at the shed and the pen. It's maybe even more critical there that you're focused on those sheep. But, yeah, I'll run the whole course without looking at that dog.

40:10In fact, this year at the nursery finals with my Nick dog that I think we ended up seventh overall, I had a really bad group of sheep that wanted to do 2-3 split or maybe we were running four and it was 2-2. They wanted to just split. And I was really on the cross drive. I was so focused on those sheep and helping him keep those together. We were almost to the cross drive panel and I gave him an away flank and he took it, come by.

40:45And, you know, I didn't know it in that moment until I saw all the sheep going the wrong way. Yeah. You know, and I was like, ah. So that's where on a young dog. But, I mean, that was really, really hard stuff for him to do. And he was working his guts out for me. But that's the young dog, you know, you might need to look at a little bit more. But I was really proud that he did keep it together and we, you know, ended up okay.

41:18Yeah. And that's one of the things we, kind of the best explanation I can think about for that is, talk about variables earlier and how many there are. Or you kind of want to be able to have your dog trained or you can take it out as a variable really. Like, you know what you're going to get. Right. Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what you want to feel when you go to the trial. And that's how I felt about, you know, about both of my nursery dogs. I felt like they were super solid on their flanks and their commands.

41:51And that's your goal. That's what you want to shoot for when you go to the trial. Because anything less is going to tear down, potentially tear down what you've been working towards, you know. Yeah, definitely. Okay, here we go. Last one of these. How important is fitness for your dog? Because you go to all these bigger trials, especially the ones like the finals where you have double lift and the 20, 30-minute runs.

42:22Yeah, you know, fitness is, I think it's very important. And different dogs, you know, can work different amounts of time easier than others just because some of them tend to get mentally hot. And those are the ones that it's really hard to get fit when they, you know, they get hot really easy. They may be fine just out running and playing. But then when you add the element of sheep, they kind of get mentally hot or a little nervous.

42:58And those are the ones that's a little harder. So intermittent works with those kind of dogs are sometimes helpful.

43:07And the other thing we worry about is, you know, elevation. We're down here in, you know, 900-foot elevation. So when you go to, say, Meeker or Soldier Hollow or somewhere like that, the elevation can also play a little bit of a role. So I'll work to get my dogs a little more fit. I'll take them for runs on the four-wheeler, you know. And like I said, I'll start working them maybe build up to 20, 30 minutes.

43:38And it depends, too, on the dog and how easily they get tired. I think that tells you a lot about how much you need to do. Yeah, definitely. And like I said, a lot of it can be done through the work that you do, too. And that's a big help as well. Right. Just, Justin, left. We've got to wait for him to get back. Just as an example, the dog I'm running now, Tater, if I take off on the four-wheeler, he'll run with me the whole time and his tongue never really hangs out.

44:12Yeah. I can work him for 15 minutes and he is mentally, and his tongue is dragging. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the ones that are really hard. And those are also the ones that maybe you work for 15 minutes and then put them away and come back in 30 minutes and work them again. And that can maybe help. Um, but, but you also, if you have a dog that runs hot, you have to manage it while you're running it. And that means it's up to you to, to watch your sheep and not make that dog do more than

44:49he needs, he actually needs to do. Right. You know, you understand what I'm saying? You, you manage him by putting him in the right spot at the right time and don't whip him around here and there by being late on your decisions. Yeah. And pacing him just kind of well with that to help his particular situation. That's what's so fun about this sport is that each dog is so unique that even if you have litter mates. Oh yeah. You can take a lot of different training stuff that you do, handling them different, all this

45:20kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, we're going to finish up here with a game we like to play called make fun of

Whistle Discussion

45:29Justin's whistles. Okay. That's really, that's kind of been the unofficial title here is, uh, so if you have your whistles, we'd love you to kind of walk us through, uh, love, love you to walk us through them, uh, here in just a second. But what's kind of funny is obviously our dad, you know, trained dogs before we did, we got into it and so naturally my whistles sound like his because, you know, I've listened to him. He can work my dog. I've worked his dog before and he got hurt and the same, you know, vice versa.

46:02Yep. Justin is like totally backwards from us. I don't know. He told us that his was just like mine. The make it funny part, one of our first episodes just said, oh, they're the same and they weren't even like kind of, they were very different. And he can't blow the same whistle twice. We've determined like, I don't know how his dog does it. It sounds very different from time to time. Woodrow's the best guesser we've ever seen. Yeah. Uh, so are you basically saying that Justin is, is he whistle challenged?

46:37That's just mean. That's just mean. And the best part was there couldn't defend himself, but his mic turned off. Yeah, I know.

46:48But, uh, okay. Take, take us through your whistles and we'll, uh, we'll all kind of go through ours again too. Okay. Uh, so my come by whistle is, and if I need, need, you know, I can give it faster or give more of them just depending on the situation, but it's just, you know, I can draw it out if I want you to go on around further. Uh, my away whistle and my stop whistle, walk up whistle.

47:24And then I use a kind of a short part of my stop whistle is kind of a steady or there just to, yeah. So pretty, pretty simple. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the things I've kind of said here before is that the whistles are pretty simple, but as you work with the dog, you kind of develop a. You do. Sort of language with them. A nuance. More times here or whatever. You, you, you absolutely, that is a great point.

47:54Yeah. It's, uh, um, yeah, you develop different parts of whistles to communicate and they understand what they are, you know, uh, it's, so it's not just cut and dry. Yeah, definitely. That makes it hard to kind of work other dogs. Like I can work my dad's dog because the majority of our whistles are the same, but I, I speak to my dogs through the whistles a little bit differently. I mean, you kind of had that happen at a trial a couple of years ago. I had a, I had knee surgery. So, and I'd already entered a cattle trial with Tater.

48:27I couldn't do it. And I told the guy, it was last chance. I couldn't get my money back. And I said, can Ty run my dog for me? He said, yeah, that's not a problem. So I show up there and Ty's working Tater and he's doing great. But then all of a sudden he's at, he's blowing a whistle. I've never heard. Tater's not taking it either. So he was over. I'm like, what was that whistle? He's going, I don't know. Well, I do know. I was like, I kind of blow my there sometimes with like a, my dog, my car dog, she's pretty quick. And so I'll like kind of blow my there kind of real subtly a couple of times and really

48:58I wanted to really stop. Right. And he just blows just kind of one solid one. So I was blowing like a couple of like short ones and just out of habit, you know, it's really hard to force yourself into something and be firing so quick, you know? Right. Yeah. Your, your dog understood what you were saying, but yeah. Yeah. Even though they were basically the same whistles, they, the nuance wasn't there with him, but yeah, I'll, I'll blow. You know, if I know it's going to be a hard flank, especially for a young dog, I'm, I might

49:30give it a little more authoritatively, you know? Yeah. Just like if you're speaking firmly to, to your children or something, I'll give that whistle with a little more authority, you know, a little more volume. And, and on the flip side of that, you know, um, if I don't want it quite as, as fast or something, I'll give it maybe a little softer. Yeah. You know, you give it urgent with urgency or not. Yeah. And the same, the same with the steady whistle.

50:00Um, I've found that a lot, a lot of times if you can try to soften that steady whistle instead of screaming that steady whistle, uh, dogs will gear down really nice for it, but it's, that's a really hard one to do in the heat of the moment sometimes. Right, right. Yeah, definitely. And what kind of whistle do you use? I use the, the brass Logan, um, it's probably what they would call the A whistle. Uh, it's kind of an A-shaped. Um, but I also can use the, uh, two-hole Logan brass whistle, like, um, if it's really windy

50:37and a really long outrun, um, I've found that that two-hole whistle can carry maybe a little more volume. Yeah. All right. So this is how we're going to finish up right here. I'm going to have Justin blow. You can pick, I'll let you pick the command. He's going to blow it, pause, and then blow it again. And you're going to tell us if he got the same whistle twice or not. Okay. Okay. All right. All right, Justin. Let's, let's start. He's kind of nervous right now. This is the first time we did this with a guest. He was real nervous.

51:08Let's start with the come-by whistle.

51:13Okay. Pause. Now try it again.

51:17That was pretty close. Pretty close. That was pretty close. That was pretty close. That was pretty close. The first one, that second one was a little, a little off. Yeah. What kind of, what kind of whistle is he using? That's a Logan A1. Okay. Okay. Um, okay. Now let's do the away.

51:39Yeah. That one was a little higher pitch. Yeah. That, you know, that, that away whistle is, I think that's probably a hard whistle that you just did to be consistent with. Yeah. Yeah. That tone, that particular tone. I think that's a hard one to, to be consistent with sometimes. So, I'm just giving you a little defense here. Yeah. Well, we like to make it harder on ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not ones for making it easier, so. And, and, and, and you did, what, what about the walk-up?

52:11How does that sound? Oh. Yeah. That's good. That one, that one I can do pretty consistently. You can do that one. Yeah. That one's pretty good. Yeah. That one's pretty solid. Well, uh, thank you so much for being our guest in our 50th episode right here. Yeah, that's cool. We've learned a lot from you today. And, uh, again, thank you so much. Appreciate it. You bet. I enjoyed it. You guys have a Merry Christmas. You too. I too. Alrighty.