284: The Truth Behind Emotional Eating

Introduction

0:00Hello, welcome to Slim and War podcast. How the flipping heck are you? Am I allowed to say that, Anna? Is that polite enough? Yeah. How the flipping heck are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm flipping brilliant. Well done. Now then, we love to geek out on a bit of research. And there's

0:35nothing better than when it's not only Slimming World research, but also research which has just been presented to the European Congress on Obesity. I mean, that's like research with a cherry on the cake, if I'm allowed to say that, Anna. That's like proper super turbo research, isn't it? That's what we want to know about. Because we are fascinated, you and I, about the psychology, the science, the knowledge, the research around weight loss, weight maintenance, the psychology gets us really excited. So this is like our perfect podcast, isn't it?

1:08Yeah. And you know, the reason we get so geeky about this is I think one of the things that we've struggled with on our weight loss journeys is when things go quite insular, and you kind of enter into your own world and you get trapped into a cycle. And stepping out of that bubble, connecting to the wider community in support of Slimming World, but also looking at the how and the why and the research of what's actually going on here allows you to kind of find the solutions and

1:39the way through to really crack your own weight loss journey so that it feels like something that's manageable, that's consistent, and that you can really stick at. So we're delighted to welcome, Anna, you're going to love this because I know you're saying about you love a bit of the psychology. We're delighted to welcome Associate Professor of Behavioural Medicine, what a title, Gemma Travis-Turner. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. What a privilege to be on the podcast today. Thanks for having me. I'm

2:11really excited to have the opportunity actually to talk about this piece of research hot off the press for the first time. And I hope that the listeners will be equally as excited and will take something useful away too. I think so. We've had a little sneaky sample of some of this research. I mean, I think maybe one of the things that we should point out is you work for the University of Leeds, but it's interesting that Slimming World, only down the road in Alfred and Derbyshire, that Slimming World will reach out to

2:42work with experts like you so that they kind of stay on top of what's happening. Have I got the gist of that right? Yeah, so I've been really fortunate in making collaboration with Slimming World. I've been invited a couple of times now to the fantastic headquarters, which has been a great opportunity, always very well looked after. But it feels great to actually do research that matters and research that can actually contribute to the evidence base that we already know, so that people are receiving

3:13the correct support and evidence-based support, as opposed to actually, you know, looking to social media or clutching up straws, looking on AI, which I know a lot of people do now. But, you know, AI can never replace a human psychologist. So it's really nice to collect this data, but actually to then see it implemented into evidence-based programs. So I feel very, very fortunate to have made this connection.

3:43Yeah, the research that you have been looking at for a good while now is actually based on conversations and reports from over 3,000 Slimming World members. And I understand also you've actually been and experienced Slimming World group for yourself to kind of see the magic that happens in group as part of this research. Yeah, that's right. And I don't think I quite understood the concept when I first arrived at Slimming World. It really kind of brought to light how progressive Slimming World is and how research

4:18savvy they are actually in being able to collect this research and then implement it into their programs. So, and I don't think I really understood the benefits other than, you know, from hearing it first experience from the members and their life-changing journeys, you know, how important this research is to us as academics, but also to people and to members of Slimming World and beyond Slimming World. Do you know, when I read the research, I just, do you know what I felt? A sense of validation,

4:49a sense of, oh my goodness me, it's not just me. It's not just my members. Like, this is it. This is what happens in my brain. That must be such an incredible thing to see when you've done your piece of research, but then you go into group and you see those things implemented. That must be really powerful and exciting. And I think it matters to people as well that we're listening. But if we think about that sense of validation and I guess normalization, when we're thinking about emotional eating as a topic, not just in people in weight management, but also people I talk to about the

5:23job that I do. So, you know, regularly people say, what do you do as a job? And I say, well, I'm a researcher and I'm interested in emotional eating. And they're like, oh, I do that. You know, and in our research, we found that almost half of the people with overweight and obesity report emotional eating. But I suspect that that is much higher. It's quite a secretive, quite a secretive experience. People feel like they're being blamed. They feel quite shameful and guilty about it. So

5:55I suspect the numbers are much, much higher and not just in weight management. So this is really a problem that matters to people. And what weight management programs are doing now are actually opening that box for people to be able to talk about it and then offering tools and solutions for people to be able to manage it. So I think it's just the very beginning, but we're starting to open that sort of unknown box that hasn't been open in weight management forever. Well, and now as being presented on a European stage, I mean, there's no better way to open the

6:30box there, is it, to talk about this stuff. So should we get into what the research revealed then, Gemma?

Research Findings

6:37So you drew upon data from 3,834 Slimming World members, which is a phenomenal amount of people. I know far more than you expected, you were good at kind of intervening and get connected in this survey. But what did it actually show about emotional eating? Yeah, it was a really huge survey. So we were really happy with the numbers. And I guess the top line is it showed that happy eating can also derail weight loss as well as comfort eating. And this was

7:13one of the first studies to actually make the distinction between positive and negative emotional eating. So we know that we eat in response to feeling down. But what we don't know is that we also eat when we're happy. So we eat for celebrations, we eat at weddings, we eat when we're excited. And the thing that this research does is it really highlights that that is quite normal. It's quite a normal experience. It's just we have to learn to bring ourselves back on track after we've had one

7:44of these happy experiences. And that's really the tools that we need to, to, to learn, I guess, and practice. So bringing ourselves back on track and knowing that a one off, we can be flexible with that. It's just a small indulgence. And then we get back on track with our weight loss journey. So when we say positive emotions, is that where, I mean, Anna, I don't know about you, I'm thinking like a birthday, a holiday, wedding, new relationship.

8:16Yeah, we've had a brilliant day at school, let's get an ice cream, those type of things that are just littered in our everyday life, aren't they? Yeah, and absolutely. And that's the thing you mentioned, let's, we've had a good day at school, let's go get an ice cream. That's exactly, we don't snack on salad. And we don't snack on apples, if you've had a great day, or you've got a promotion. We go for those high sugar, high salt, highly accessible foods that make us feel good. And it's such a learned behaviour. I often talk about my own weight loss journey as a

8:50becoming overweight as a child. And that's how it started. Well done, you've had a bad day, I can clearly remember my dad handed me a box of lynched chocolates, because I'd done well at school. And that just transcends throughout my adult life. It was just a learned behaviour as well as here's the box of chocolates, because you've had a bad day. It is really, and you don't almost notice it's happening, I suspect. Yeah, yeah. So people are more likely to have unhealthy snacks in response to emotions. We don't get that larger portion of dinner. You just don't,

9:23you know, and that's well known in the research. It's these, you know, we live in a world of choice and convenience. And we can get these things accessibly and quick at the click of a button, Uber Eats, and it's there, or 24 hour convenience shops are open. So we have to learn to navigate this and have a toolbox in which we can draw from so that we have the tools to manage those emotions and not just turning to food all the time. Yeah. And I mean, it's mad, isn't it, to think that this

9:58is one of the first large scale studies to actually explore both positive and negative emotional eating. As you say, so many of us think about, you know, when we're down and how we turn to food as a way to comfort and maybe numb out or avoid difficult emotions that we're managing. I guess the thing really is because you spoke with Summer World members, and this is maybe what sets this aside, these are people who are successfully losing weight as part of a weight loss journey. I guess you explored maybe some

10:35of the strategies of how they were overcoming emotional eating as well? We did. And we asked a really nice question about what strategies would you recommend for a friend? So it removed the person from the personal question. And I guess I'll jump in, in at number one, we'll play the sort of game show version. In at number one was distraction techniques. So distraction techniques were mentioned by over a third of the respondents. These were things like physical

11:08activity, socialising and hobbies. And we know from the literature in mindfulness, for example, if you have an urge to do something, if you can halt that temporarily and accept the feeling, then you can actually ride the wave and you don't have that impulsive feeling for very long. So distraction was in at number one. I mean, that's no surprise there, is it? That's, I mean, even going to group is a good distraction before the big, you know, if you've got a big birthday or something, you're starting

11:41to think, I guess, Anna, of a pause of how else could I set myself up? That's part of what the supporting group does. And also getting that plan of, I know that actually on a Wednesday, I might be liable to do X, Y and Z because of how my day is. So having that plan of distraction. Actually, this came up in my group just last week, talking about having a bubble bath or reading a book or picking up the phone to your mum or going out for a dog or something like that. So you know, you've got your distraction plan ready to roll out rather than it just coming by surprise.

12:14Because I think that's where many of us get caught out. We know how we might behave, but we still let it surprise us every time it happens. So having that toolbox ready to open is a really important thing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's one of the simplest techniques. It's just we forget. Yes. So it's about practicing that. So it's about noticing the urge. And then it's about having that tool to implement. You said something before about sitting with it. And where I know I'd really struggled is I didn't like sitting with that because that feeling was uncomfortable. That feeling wasn't

12:46something I like to be with. So the food was a great distraction. But actually, once you've learned to sit with that for a few minutes at most, it does dissipate. It does pass, doesn't it? So almost having that courage to go through that emotion is really important. Yeah. And I think that gives you a chance then to check in with yourself and think, is this hunger? Do I need this food? So again, we don't really eat very often anymore in response to physical hunger. We eat in response to environmental cues because we live in this

13:21modern world where we have busy lives and we have jobs and we have lots of choice and accessibility to food. So we don't actually eat in response to our physical hunger very often anymore. And I guess that distraction technique just allows you to think, am I hungry?

13:40Interesting that Slim & World members came up with this as a strategy themselves. This isn't experts saying this. This is what members are saying. I mean, what else did they say? So in at number two was keeping healthy foods in the house. So avoiding having those trigger foods to hand and making good food choices visible. It's a bit like in the supermarket when you go to the supermarket and they put all the good things at the end of the aisle. It's having the healthy foods

14:10in the house. So this was mentioned by 24% of the sample. Again, a really, really good strategy. It just comes and stuck a little bit when you're in a family environment, for example, it requires everybody to be on board with this. So my kids have a pick and mix drawer, which is filled with, it's got little scoops and it's filled with kind of nuts and seeds and dried apricots and stuff like that. So it's a bit like pick and mix. But then when their friends come around, they're a bit

14:40horrified. They're like, this is not real pick and mix. This is brilliant. My little girl thought grapes were sweets until she was three. Do you know what I mean? But it is curating your home and your space, isn't it? Like in my fridge, I know that the first thing I see is food optimised food and perhaps the things that are higher in calories or swips are in the back of the fridge so that they don't trigger me to see, because I'm a person, I think a lot of us are, I see it, I want it. It's that seafood to having that space curated. I'm going to pick a mixture with apricots.

15:14And alongside that, that came with healthy food swaps. So again, this is something that Slimming World is fundamental to the Slimming World programme. Things like the fakeaways. So swapping the unhealthy food that you might respond to an emotion with, with something that's a bit of a better option. Yeah, absolutely. And I imagine planning must have been in there somewhere. Well, that is at number four. So you're ahead of me, Claire. Um, so at number four was planning routine and preparation. Um, and this is about planning your

15:49meals, shopping lists, not shopping when you're hungry and using the food tracking apps. Um, and I was kind of thinking about this, um, likening it to a long car journey, because when we're trying to make changes to our behaviour, um, these behaviours are really ingrained. And so it's not just a quick trip around the block. It's, um, you know, it's a long journey that we're embarking on trying to change these behaviours. So when you go on a long car journey, what do you do? You plan what you're

16:20going to take with you, you plan where you're going to stop, you plan where you're going to charge your car, you plan where the service stations are, you take a puzzle book or, you know, your phone charges. So I think it's a bit similar, really. It's about having the plans in place so that if you do come unstuck or you do come up against a trigger, you've got that, um, action plan ready. Yeah. What was number three, by the way? So three was healthy food swaps. So it was kind of, it was within the same category as keeping the

16:52healthy foods available. Okay. Now, do you know, it's about that forward thinking for your future self. That's what's really helped me to, to get motivated to it. Actually, do you know what? Anna on Wednesday is going to thank Anna from Sunday who meal prepped, who did the food shopping, who made sure she had all those plans. And it's, it's understanding, isn't it? That what happens when you don't, because history tells me if I don't have the food in the fridge, I haven't done the food shop. That's when I got on the app and I want to order a pizza. So actually forward thinking and knowing, but I love the analogy of

17:25thinking it like a car journey. Cause you wouldn't get in the car if you've got an electric car and not charge it or put any petrol in. We would expect to lose weight without making good choices and decisions about the food that's in our fridge and the meals that we've planned, weren't we? Yeah. And you mentioned there about, you know, making mistakes and what happens if you don't. I think that's really important as well, because that is part of the journey.

17:47It's knowing what happens when you don't do these things and then learning from the mistakes and they are inevitable and they are going to happen and actually be kind to yourself and, and take those as learning opportunities, I guess. See that, I think for me, the idea around planning for those situations, that for me is when I found a similar group and stayed to group. That is what was the difference maker for me to learn how to do that. I think when I'd previously followed other weight loss plans, yes, I was kind of told eat this and you will lose weight. But then when the setbacks or

18:24the challenges came up, or as we say, the positive and negative emotions kind of came up, I didn't really understand the strategy of how to navigate that. And then in group, kind of having the support of my consultant, but also seeing other members, exactly as you're reporting here, Gemma, explain how they'd work through that scenario, giving me ideas of how I could do that. That I think was that connection, I think that enabled me to, to really understand what, what's the personalized solution

18:55for me look like, and then how can I build this in so that I'm ready, I'm practiced so that I've got this as in my toolbox, as, as we were just saying. I mean, Anna, I guess that is the essential of what the support aspect, whether it be in the online community or in group is all about. That's why we're there. We're there to help you change your behaviors. You know, we've been around for over 55 years, creating that kind of expertise and habit change consistently. And that's what you're going to get in group. You're going to get that understanding, that knowledge to make your own

19:29plan from your consultant, but also your fellow members. And I think there's something so strong in learning from your peers and other people who are on the same journey, because anybody can be told what to do. But I don't know about you, if you tell me what to do, I might listen, but it doesn't mean I'm going to implement it long term. Hearing and seeing what other people do so I can create my own plan for my own life is far more empowering, isn't it? So that's what we're there. We're there to have a good time and learn and, and think about the strategies that are going to serve you long term to make long term habit change, because we need to embed these new habits in order to lose weight,

20:04but also to keep it off. Yeah, you've, you've jumped ahead as well, because our final question was around support.

20:14We asked people about the benefits of support and actually, you know, coming out of the members, from the members voices themselves, they talked about a sense of belonging, about sharing and learning tips, and about accountability. So having people to be accountable to and to come back to. So I think, yeah, the group is the sort of final piece

20:45of the jigsaw, really, in terms of you've got these this toolbox, and how do you use it? And how do you stick to it? And that's the long term part of the journey, I guess. Do you know what's so lovely? I was just thinking about some members in my group, and they were very honest, they two of them had to go and make some changes, and go and do some things that week. And when they came back into group, the following, the whole group was like, what's happened? What have you done? How have you got on? So invested in the habits that they were going to change and the things they've done and celebrated them. And I think without that kind of support system, that accountability of saying,

21:19how did you get on? You said you're going to do this, and then celebrating that, they may not have made those changes, because they didn't have that celebration. But they also didn't have that, you know, you committed to that, what have you done? It's a really important foundation, isn't it, when changing habits? Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. And in any behaviour change intervention, we ask people to sign a contract, a contract to change. And, you know, that, I guess that's the same in sort of the sense of slimming world, people are coming back, and they've contractually said they're going to do this

21:52particular behaviour, even if it's only for a week. So then they have to come back and stand by that. Yeah, I mean, that sense of belonging that you talk about. It's interesting with something like emotional eating, you mentioned earlier about how this is often seen as a secret experience, clothed in shame or guilt of like, oh, God, I've done it again. I can't believe I've done this. But actually, that there's nothing more powerful than when you sit in group, and you know that

22:27something needs to change, and you share that with this community that is safe and welcoming. And you see all the nodding heads, and people pipe up and say, I do that too. I used to do that. And you feel heard and understood in a way that instantly annihilates any shame that you may be carrying. It just quietens down that noise that we feel in our minds. And I don't think that is

22:58something that people talk about enough, because it's like a conversation we have in our own heads. Um, but as you say, like this idea about opening the box of okay, let's look at all aspects of emotional eating, happy, sad, angry, bereaved, whatever those emotions are, and, and really kind of spin this around and understand what's really happening. I mean, I imagine mindset is going to be in there somewhere too. Were people talking about like, what that kind of more, um, positive

23:33mindsets? Uh, I mean, Anna have talked about things like visualization. Did that come up at all in any of the studies? Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, people talked about mindset and motivation. Um, and that was things like self-compassion. So forgiving ourselves when we make mistakes and knowing that that's okay. Um, you know, we all make mistakes in life. It's just getting yourself back on track and be motivated to get yourself back on track. And again, I think that's where the group support comes into this,

24:08um, because they provide that motivation to get back on track. Um, and I guess that links to the positive emotional eating. So when we talked about having a blip and going on holiday or going to a hen do or whatever, um, it's about coming back, resetting, and then getting back on with the plan. Do you know what also I think I spot seeing members in grouping online is that it's not inevitable. Actually, you know that you may be liable to eat or drink this in certain emotions,

24:43but actually you don't have to do that. We can help you to create a plan to do something different. And that can be so freeing for me to understand that on a birthday, I didn't have to eat the entire birthday cake. That a meal out doesn't mean a starter, a main course, a dessert and a bottle of wine. That I could learn different habits so that I could have an amazing time if it was a brilliant celebration or, or seek comfort in other things that wasn't food. I, I only learned that in group because what that taught me was to manage my emotion, to sit with my emotion,

25:15but also how to put strategies in place that took me to a different place. So, you know, I think it's knowing that what group does is show you that the inevitable doesn't have to happen. Yeah. And I guess in those situations where you're out for a meal and you were saying about swapping, having, um, a starter main course and a dessert, actually changing the meaning of going out for a meal and making it the social experience, um, rather than about the food. Yes. Cause actually, yeah, you don't remember necessarily the pudding you had six months ago,

25:48but you remember that you had a wonderful conversation with Aunt Annie or whatever. Do you know what I mean? So again, I think so many of us have, have brought it so down to the food and the alcohol that we forget actually it's more than that, isn't it? Yeah. And food is often, it's a shared experience. Um, so we, I do a lot of work with people with severe mental illness and, um, at their groups, we provide, we provide food. Um, and they didn't talk about what the food was. They talked about eating it in other people's company and then the sense of sharing. Um, so I think in social environments and, um, when we go out

26:25for dinner, actually having food is about socializing and talking with people and that's the function of the food. It's just, you happen to be eating food whilst you're doing that. So I guess it's making different associations. You can substitute the behavior with something else. So it's functionally equivalent to have a good conversation with someone and do something sociable that maybe isn't even over a meal.

26:50Yeah. That's the way the behavior change kicks in, I suppose, isn't it? I mean, you mentioned there around compassion as well. And compassion, I think can often be a word that lands in different ways with different people. We've talked about this as well as like the word of kindness, um, and showing yourself kindness. And sometimes that can be as simple as the self-talk that you have, um, in talking to yourself in the same way that you would say a fellow member in group,

27:20um, which so often we are mean to ourselves as I was saying about that. Oh, I've done it again. I always do this. I always mess up. I'll never, ever be able to keep losing weight. I'll always get back to where I started. It's kind of quashing that and finding a new way, I suppose, of showing ourselves compassion. Um, and as you say, that doesn't have to always be with food, looking for those things, I suppose, that, um, that lift us or are helpful to us, um, in maintaining our good

27:52behaviours. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's an interesting journal exercise. Um, uh, and a part of what I really love about being a symbol member is it allows you to be a bit of a detective and, you know, the outcome of these little detective journal processes, I think they end up being completely different for different people. And we always say, if you ever want accountability and you're listening, you can email us. We don't have to read your emails out on the podcast. You can just send it to us slimmingworldpodcast.gmail.com. Um, if any of this is landing with you, you're getting

28:25those light bulb moments that you want to share. Um, but that idea of when I'm happy, I dot, dot, dot, dot, when I'm sad, I dot, dot, dot. And maybe that might be around food, but maybe look at what some of those habits are that you do when you're happy or when you're sad. I mean, because I imagine, Gemma, for some people when they're happy, they eat more, but when they're sad, they eat less or vice versa. I imagine that can be quite changeable and maybe even from emotion to emotion. Yeah. And

28:59it's very, um, it depends on the stressor as well. So, um, mood affects our eating in very different ways. So sometimes if it's a chronic stressor and you're feeling down for a long period of time, often it, um, it dampens your appetite. So people eat less. Whereas if it's a acute and quick stressor, often people resort to quick fixes like eating, it can affect our appetite in different ways. And I think, I suppose that would be one of my key messages that it's very individual. And so the

29:34journals, so one of the most powerful tools we use as psychologists is a food and mood diary. So I'm not really bothered what people actually eat. I'm bothered about the situation and the environment that they're eating in and what the trigger to them eating is and who they're eating with. A food and mood diary is a very good way and a practical strategy for managing emotional eating and recognizing what the triggers are, but it's very different and it's very situationally dependent as well. So it's developing those tools. So the strategies that the members mentioned,

30:07and then it's picking the ones that fit at the time of practicing those. And what works one week for you might not work the next week for you either. So it's been equipped with all of them and having your tool belt on at all times, I guess. So true that I did a food and mood diary about three years ago, and it changed my whole trajectory with how I ate because it brought it into my forefront of my mind. And so much of it with emotional eating, and tell me if I'm wrong, was done below my consciousness. Like I ate before I'd

30:42even recognized that I was emotional, that I was eating. So actually seeing it in black and white and saying, actually, that was the stress that that was the trigger. That's how you behaved. You know what you're going to do? Let's go back and just take a pause, was a real game changer for me. It really helped me immensely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your research taps into what Anna's touching on there about that you found those in group who'd lost the most weight reported the lowest levels of both negative and positive emotional

31:13eating, as well as fewer food cravings, better craving control, and better overall mental well-being. I mean, that's pretty big, isn't it? That's like the gold that we're all aiming for, if I'm honest, Gemma. The other interesting finding was the fact that they had fewer food cravings for both sweet and savory foods. So I guess it's implementing those findings and providing support for both positive and negative emotional eating, and enabling people to practice those. I will just keep saying

31:48practice them because they're not quick fixes. But knowing that the people that lose the most weight have the lowest levels of these things and better craving control, yeah, is very powerful in such a large sample. And it is something you have to practice. Like for me, you know, at my biggest, I was eating 16 chocolate bars in a day and six packets of crisps. That didn't change overnight. I had to practice changing those behaviors, swapping those foods, recognizing those cravings. And now I sit here as a 45-year-old woman that wouldn't even think about eating 16 bars of chocolate. I could just

32:23about manage one now. But that has been something I've had to concentrate on, practice, like a new habit, like learning to ride a bike. It didn't come overnight. The first thing I had to do was bring it into the forefront of my mind. Then I had to make swaps. Then I had to practice. But I also had to know, and Gemma said it before, there will be lapses. There will be falls in that. That wasn't a perfect journey. That was knowing, actually, I did have big wobbles. So I think if anybody's kind of listening and thinking, well, that's all right for them, but that's not me, you can change it. It can happen. You just have to decide you want it to happen, I think, was the biggest thing for me.

32:57Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing this insight, Gemma. Some really reassuring notes, I guess, from Slim & World members too. What happens next with this research? So it's been presented in the European Congress on obesity in the last couple of weeks. That happened in Istanbul. What happens next with it? Well, the next stage is doing the academic stuff in the background, I think. So we've heard from members and it's quite an unusual way to do research because

33:35we normally bring our theory and say, this is what we think happens. What we did with this research was we asked members from the, we took a bottom-up approach. We asked members what strategies they would recommend. And then the next stage is to actually map it onto what we know as the behaviour change taxonomy, which shows us it's a wheel, I suppose, of 93 different behaviour change components to map it onto the theory so that we can then implement that into evidence-based weight

34:07management programmes, such as Slimming World. Wow. That's cool. So we've done it in reverse, really, because I think it's much more authentic to actually ask members rather than, you know, us come from our, people describe as the ivory tower and impart our theory onto people. So that's the, that's the ultimate goal. Nice. Go to the power of members. Yeah. Go members. Love that. Changing the world. One mouthful at a time. Yeah. Yeah. One strategy at a time.

34:42Gemma, thank you so much. Keep in touch with us. We'd love to hear where next and if there's any other research, hopefully we'll have you back on the podcast. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on. And I really hope that listeners have taken away a few of those sort of key nuggets of information in terms of strategies they might use and actually recognising that emotional eating is a thing and that they can do something about it. And there are people to talk about about it and that that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Thank you. Anna, we're back next week with a

35:19members podcast. Shall I just quickly have a little, whilst the ukuleles are rolling up, what shall we? Oh my. What is it? It's prepping for summer next week. What more could we want? That's it. Get the sunglasses out ready for that one. Let's start thinking about how do you want to feel come July and August? We'll get into more around strategies next week. But other than that, we'll see you very soon. Take care. Bye for now.