S3Ep9 - Beyond Luck: Data-Driven Approaches to Better Hiring Decisions

0:00Welcome to Organizational Sherlock's, the podcast where business meets psychology and your organizational puzzles meet their match. Join us for captivating stories and practical solutions to unravel your toughest challenges. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth, your guides to a prescription for business success. Let's dive in.

0:30Hey, Elizabeth. Hey, listeners. I think we all know there was a holiday or kind of holiday this past week. It was St. Patrick's Day back on Tuesday. I am Irish. So, yes, I did celebrate. Had some green cookies, natural green cookies. Also had some, you know, green espresso martinis, our corned beef, you know, the whole shebang. And our Guinness. Of course, you can't not have a Guinness on St. Patrick's Day.

1:01I miss Guinness, but that's neither here nor there. I cannot have gluten, so it doesn't really work for me. But I, too, Morgan, am Irish and my family is as well. So St. Patrick's Day is always a really important holiday around our house and tends to be a lot of fun. And as our listeners probably know, I have two little kids. And so the leprechauns visit our house each year and have a little bit of mischief, leave some mysterious notes. And up until this year, to be honest, my son was convinced, not so much anymore.

1:33But my daughter is still convinced that leprechauns are completely real and that the day is all about being the luckiest Irish person on the planet. And so it's a pretty powerful and fun experience. And I just absolutely love it. But I will say it made me think about, you know, what what is it all about? Like, what do we talk about on St. Patrick's Day when people are out celebrating? And a lot of times we hear about luck. Right. We hear about having lucky timing on something or having lucky opportunities or a lucky break.

2:07And I think it's funny because working and having worked in kind of the corporate environment in the past, oftentimes they would hear about lucky hires. We were so lucky to get this person. Right. And so I thought, what better way to talk about hiring as a kind of within the frame of St. Patrick's Day and this idea of luck? Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean, I think our listeners can tell we like to have a theme going, whether that be within the one episode or for a month even at times. But today's conversation is all surrounding luck and talking about St. Patty's Day versus hiring, kind of connecting the two of them together.

2:46A big reason we do this, just a little background, is because when we place metaphors on subject material, it becomes easier to understand. It helps us make further connections in our lives, helps us think a little bit more deeply about them. All in all, those metaphors make it easier to explain even to others down the road. So our listeners, you may, you know, learn more easily because of these metaphors we're using. But these are also metaphors you can take and teach your greater team when they need to understand this type of subject material.

3:24So let's talk about luck. Is it luck? Are we really lucky to get these people? Or is there a little bit more effort put in behind the scenes? Yeah, well, I mean, I don't want to take it away and say, you know, I mean, obviously there are people we are so happy and feel fortunate to have on our team. So I think in some ways I can understand the idea of luck being a part of your conversation. I know I've said that to employees of mine. I'm just so lucky to have you here and supporting our team. And I feel that truly and at the same time, I do think that the idea of luck is a really good thing when we're talking about holidays and things like that.

4:01But it becomes a much riskier story when we're talking about things like hiring, right? Because while, again, like the idea of luck can be a fun thing and I don't know, just kind of a lightness to it, it can be a very expensive talent strategy if you're relying solely on luck. And so I would argue that, again, while it is fun and exciting, we shouldn't depend on luck for our hiring needs. Yeah, I think that is very cleanly put, Elizabeth.

4:36When a, you know, when one of your clients or when a company is, you know, just thinking it's luck, it is luck when it comes to hiring, then that's when, as you noted, you run into more expensive hiring timelines. That could mean that, one, it's more expensive just in the amount of time it takes to hire someone. But most importantly, when you're just hoping and, you know, relying on luck, then not only is it a more expensive timeline simply because of the time you're wasting, I guess I'd say, in waiting for this person to come to you, but it's also expensive in the sense of turnover.

5:18You are likely going to have significant turnover after hiring the incorrect people for the position first. And that means, depending on luck, you really didn't get lucky. It's that you went through multiple renditions of incorrect hires, turnover with those hires, whether that be terminations or resignations, before you finally found the right person. And I'm sure in these amount of turnovers, which are the most expensive part of hiring and just employee well-being is that turnover because of the constant hiring timelines.

5:55But in addition to that, you have likely put in more safeguards to ensure you're hiring the correct person over time, I'd argue. Funny enough, I had a conversation on hiring yesterday with one of my customers because there's different methods to hiring. And I do feel that there's been a change in the hiring world where you're not always hiring someone just for their experience previously in this industry or in this type of role, but you're hiring someone that has the skill sets.

6:25So it could be someone entirely from an entirely different industry or from an entirely different position, but their skill sets are transferable. And so I would love to talk to that at one point in this podcast, if you're okay with that, Elizabeth. Yeah, I mean, I think that makes perfect sense and we can definitely talk about it. I mean, when I think about hiring as a whole, and I think maybe this even speaks, can I kind of naturally get into what you want to talk about too? But like, I think about hiring as being kind of a prediction or kind of a forward thinking prediction in some ways.

6:59And uncertainty is just kind of a part of that, right? And so kind of to your point, I think a lot of times leaders, hiring managers, HR teams, whatever it might be, they're asking and maybe not forwardly asking, but that's going through their mind about like, will this person succeed? Will this candidate succeed in this role? Well, how fast is it going to take for them to ramp up? You know, what support are they going to need from us to help them be successful? And all of those things, we can't say for sure that we can't answer them, right?

7:33For sure. There are ways to, I think, help with some of that uncertainty, right? And we can talk a little bit about that too. Um, but if we're solely kind of thinking about more of that subjective information that we have and not considering other data points, I think that's where the uncertainty really kind of starts to increase. And then are, we feel like, oh my goodness, am I making the right decision? And then brings in the idea of luck. You know what I mean? Um, but to your point about, you know, having a, maybe a poor hiring decision or someone who doesn't work out or that turnover, right?

8:09Um, it can, to your, it can be very, very expensive. I mean, there, there are estimates that at, in a conservative level that it's 30% at very conservative level, 30% of their annual income. And so I always give this example to the, the clients that I work with when they ask me about the ROI of doing an assessment prior to hire is like, if you think about it as a $50,000 annual salary, if you lose that person, conservatively, it's about $16,000 that you've spent to recruit on board or recruit higher on board.

8:46Right. And then you lose them and you have to do that all over again. Um, and I think that can be a really big challenge. And so looking at where some of those data points can help you understand what would success look like for this person, right? Within this context, instead of just kind of thinking about it overall, right? And really kind of trying to nail it down. Yeah. And I would say that if you, knowing that there's about a 16% of that salary, 60% of the salary would be just like that recruitment, all that, um, training, onboarding.

9:2230% 30%, thank you. You said 16 at one point, um, $16,000. I was just doing like quick math. Thank you. Why? I don't know why my brain is jumping to the percentage from the dollars. I guess I'm thinking rainbow, not gold pot of gold right there. Look at that. I like it. So if it's about $16,000 to recruit, onboard a person, if it's about 30% of that position's, um, income, then let's think about how, basically let's think about what goes into that $16,000.

9:53That's where I'm getting to. So if you're trying to think of what goes into that $16,000, that's part of where the uncertainty is. Um, so let's think about onboarding. Well, within onboarding, what's that part? Where does onboarding lay in the $16,000? It's the amount of invested time that other team members are also putting into training. So it's taking away from that team member's daily jobs, which could be taking away from possible income to the company, depending on the type of position. And so it's, it's changing the productivity levels while we're training that person.

10:27Um, it's also the human resources input and investment. You know, human resources can be seen as a cost to organizations, um, not necessarily an income producer to organizations. And so because of that human resources costs money, well, their time can be spent in a variety of areas. One of those areas being the onboarding of people simply by having the new hires fill out forms, having all the federal compliance, state compliance met, um, in the type of data that you collect from the person.

10:57Um, so, you know, the $16,000, we're already touched two points, the training by others, the investment of HR time as well. Um, on top of that, it could be any of the, um, ads that you're posting. And I will say $16,000, that stat does not typically include the ads you're using. That's actually underneath the ads. So think of the added dollars that you're using for job ads, whether that be ZipRecruiter, Indeed, LinkedIn, et cetera. Um, you're thinking about the recruitment timeline again.

11:29So how long has this position been empty and, or how long are you, you know, taking to hire for it and having someone else in that role? Um, so that could be people putting their time into a job that's not theirs temporarily, again, decreasing their jobs productivity. Uh, and then also thinking about, um, when you're bringing on someone new, you might be training this person, hiring this person to replace another position that's for a person currently there. So you're actually paying the salary twice to bring this person on.

12:02And so thinking of all those pieces that accumulate to the $16,000 plus, could be much more than $16,000, um, that's where you've tried to find the uncertainties within those levels, I would say. Is, in each of these areas, what could go wrong? What is subjective? Yeah. I would agree with you. I think that the, again, that, that 30% number I, I, I personally believe and have seen with my clients is very low.

12:33That was a number that was put out by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in a specific article about, I think it was called the cost of bad hires. Um, and again, I think that's, it's very conservative. Um, it may depend a little bit on the, the position, but one thing you stood out to me was really that, like that, that lost productivity that happens as a result of having an open position or some, a, because someone who's cross-trained and not able to do their original position, right? And so from a financial perspective, it can be really costly.

13:03And I know that we kind of have a tone of maybe heaviness right now, but I will say there are ways to become more certain, right? Um, and I think part of that is really what responsible leadership looks like, you know, and, and what responsible HR practices look like. It's, it's not necessarily always asking, you know, which of these candidates, candidates is most qualified to your point about maybe transferring from another industry. It's more about who is aligned with what we need right now.

13:35Right. And again, that contextual information really is helpful. Um, just because someone comes from another industry does not mean that they are not capable of doing the job. And I think that sometimes we get so stuck on those requirements, like you must have a degree in this area, um, which again, and I'm not bashing any HR practices or anything. I know that that's necessary. It sets a standard or a tone, but I do think that there is space for leaders and, and, um, HR folks to say, huh, well, you have a degree, not quite the degree we have posted, but I wonder how that could work.

14:13Right. Yeah. Um, and really just taking a look at what are some of those transferable skills. What does that look like? Um, I'll give you just a really quick example. I'm, I have a degree, my, my doctorate degree is in counseling psychology with a specialization in IO. Right. But I'm an IO psychologist who also has experience in business and business analysis. Right. And I'm getting my MBA in business analysis. So you look at that and you go on paper, you might not look at me and say, Oh, totally makes sense to have as a business analyst or a leader of a tech team or something like that.

14:48And the transferable skills and my, my background might say something differently. I'm just using myself as the example, but I have seen that time and time and time again, when hiring, you know, people who are more than capable and probably even are the best fit because culturally they just fit within the team. Right. I think there's a lot of, I think, I don't know that we always put an emphasis on that. Sorry. I didn't hear my dog in the back. Oh, come here.

15:19So I'm sorry about that lesson is you probably heard my dog in the background. I don't know what woke her up from her nap. I wish I was napping personally, but you can't always be given one second. Yeah. So, I mean, I think overall though, like when we think about, you know, like I've never looked at hiring and I'd love your perspective on this too, Morgan, but I've never looked at hiring as like, here are my two candidates. I'm just giving an example, like here are my two candidates.

15:50One is a good candidate and one is a bad candidate. I've never looked at it that way. I think both bring value to whatever it is we're doing. It's just, to me, it's about kind of choosing between different types of good. Like, what is it that I need right now? Or not me, but what is the organization need right now? Where are we going? What is that forward-looking strategy? And then making a decision kind of in that space. And so it's not always about the good versus bad, you know, even though as somebody who's been hired before, it doesn't feel good when you get turned down, right?

16:26But I think there's ways that we can talk about that with candidates and help them understand like where we're at and what the future looks like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know when I'm involved with organizations within hiring, these are tactics and conversations I'm consistently having is, you know, there's already the argument of, you know, AI and hiring and how that all goes. You know, AI is filtering out the incorrect candidates at times just simply because they're lacking the experience or the exact industry or the exact previous job titles.

16:56I do know now there's regulations. You have to still have a person like human oversight on these AI portals, whether they happen or not, who knows, depending on the organization. But I know whenever I'm working in an organization, these are conversations we're having. What are the transferable skill sets? No, you don't necessarily need someone from that industry. No, you don't necessarily need someone with that previous job title. It's more so about what are their skill sets. And honestly, I will argue that sometimes a more well-rounded individual, someone that comes from different industries will be more easily able to bring different perspectives.

17:36And I do think you'll see that there's a someone's coming from a different industry tends to work harder, if that makes sense. They are someone that's more open, more flexible in what they're learning. And so they're naturally going to bring on more skill sets and hopefully have greater discipline, harder work, more conscientiousness to bring to the table, which is what an organization needs. If someone is looking to change industries, to change job titles, to change kind of their overall trajectory in their career, they're learning as they go to an extent.

18:10And I think that says something about personal character, and that is something to take into account. You know, in fact, one of the organizations I'm working with right now, when it comes to hiring, we have a position posted with a job title that is not the job title that's getting hired for. And it is to attract people from that specific skill set, who has a 100% transferable skill to something that only this organization does.

18:41And so the job is posted on purpose to attract these people. Within the phone screen, there's automatically a conversation from the recruiter or the hiring manager. There is actually both working at this organization to really make sure that hiring and the applicant pool is getting discussed with more quickly and timely. And there's already a conversation of just so you're aware, this is not this exact position we have to post as this because our job title does not exist.

19:11Yeah. And this is why we do it. Here's some more information about us. Here are the skill sets that we see you have that we're looking for. And then there's a conversation. And are you still interested? And then that's how they get moved on. So, yes, it sounds like a bait and a switch. But at the same time, it's what this company needs to do to properly hire the correct individuals. If they were to previously, if they were just to post their previous position, they're getting people from all over the place that are kind of all entry level warehouse assembly.

19:42Obviously, it's a manufacturing assembly type workers, but it's not the fit for their role in any way, shape or form. There's also a proprietary nature to the role, so they can't share everything about it. Right. So that's just one prime example I would give. And it's a strategy to make sure that there's some objectivity in the people by posting a certain job title. That's a common one, too. There's a thousand titles out there for the same position.

20:13Oh, my gosh. There so are. Yeah. I think that applicants and people that are looking for a job can also learn from this. There's a thousand titles out there. Take a look at the skill sets that they're looking for. And a cover letter is super important because that's how you bridge the gap between your resume and the company by talking about your skill sets and talking about how certain pieces do apply and how you think that you're still a great fit for this role. Yeah. Well, and I think, too, that there is to kind of to your point there, you know, yes, there are requirements in certain industries and certain roles.

20:53Right. That are needed. Right. Say a license for some for for instance. Right. Like to be a or a medical doctor and you have a medical license. Right. Like that makes sense to me that there are certain certain pieces. But there are also even within an environment where certain qualifications are required by law. Right. There are also those kind of more. I don't want to what you want to call them kind of just less tangible kind of attributes that hiring teams really could use visibility.

21:27Right. Into. And so I think about, like, how does someone make decisions like that might impact they might present them. Somebody might present themselves so well or maybe not so well. Right. But their decision making style is so is exactly what's needed. Or maybe they can tolerate ambiguity and they're really flexible in the way that they can adjust to changing circumstances. Right. People need that. They need to test switch more. Like, yeah. You have to think of those non-tangible needs of a position based off of, you know, positional demands.

22:05And I do think. Sorry to interrupt you, Elizabeth. You're good. Keep going. But to talk about that, it takes a special type of questioning to ensure that you are having these conversations with the applicant to help you understand the applicant more. Or, in fact, I actually use, it's a broader term for it, but there's such thing as behavioral interviewing. And so it's the idea that you ask for examples of previous behaviors that allow you to get to know someone's decision making skills, problem solving skills, mistake driven skills.

22:42You know, people make mistakes. And I do preface the, and I always tell people you, and I train for people to preface the question as this. Everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes happen. So please take us through a time that you made a mistake at work and tell us how you fixed it or if you could fix it. So we preface it. There's a level of openness from the organization to learn. So there's not a pressure to say, oh, I don't make mistakes. And it's also the company saying, we know mistakes happen.

23:15No, they're not good necessarily, but we want to understand how you fix them. And also, do you own up to them? Are you accountable to your mistakes? That is really important, too. Versus, like, disagreements at work, you know, goal setting, decision making, problem solving. Again, you can ask questions regarding all those. It's my argument there, though, is don't just ask those questions and have the subjective, this is how I would handle it from the applicant. Ask for concrete, specific examples.

23:45Drive into that example. Ask more questions about it. Ask for clarification. Because even then, you could get false information. That is possible. You could get false information. But as you ask more follow-up questions and you still give that level of openness, I always say that's so important to kind of not have crossed arms, have your arms open, show that you're supportive, you know, smiling and nodding. It does allow applicants to share more and be more comfortable to share more. But as you ask more questions and keep up with your physical attributes that push the comfort in sharing more information, then you can kind of get down to the nitty-gritty of what you're really looking for, those personal attributes.

24:32You know, I would say, yes, it's those, quote, soft skills. That's what people call them. It's the personal attributes that individual has. Not so much, it's not so much their personality. I feel like that's harder to, you know, hone in on that there's a certain personality for a certain person. Through interviewing, yes. Yes, yes, exactly. But sometimes it's easier to explain that way to an applicant. You know, us as psychology individuals, yes, personality kind of has a different meaning than someone in just a general space that's not dealing with personality psychology in any way, shape, or form.

25:06But sometimes even that term personality comes up. Like, hey, we're looking for personality fit. And, but you don't ask personality questions. You're asking personal attribute questions, soft skill questions. There's so many terms for the same thing. There so are. I like to call them essential skills because I don't think that they're soft. I think that they actually do have a, they carry more weight than we think they do. So I talked to, I call them essential skills. I like that because that is what, that's the main thing I hire for. I mean, I feel that technological skills, black and white skills, hard skills are, are learnable.

25:44They simply are. But your essential skills dictate if you're able to learn those hard skills. And, yeah, when I think there's opportunities for refinement, you know, like somebody might not be the best, the most well presented person, you know, and there may be reasons for that. And I think, but those, that's refinable as long as someone is coming in and like a kind of a coachable manner, right? If they're there, I think you can, you can teach those things. But for sure, like the tech, the tech skills, if you will, or the hard skills are things that you can generally teach folks.

26:17But I will say, too, like on, to that point, I think that, yeah, behavioral interviewing is, is so important and so helpful. And getting those examples out there is really important. You know, obviously, you know, in my experience, I do a lot of assessments. And so usually what happens is people will go through the process of interviewing and they'll go through the behavioral interview and all the things you just mentioned. And then they get to a place where they say, well, we have maybe two or three candidates that we feel pretty strongly about.

26:47And they're, you know, we could see them all fitting, but we need a little bit more kind of discrimination around what would be best right now, right? And so that's typically where that assessment piece comes in, because all of those kind of those less tangible skills, like the good news is they can be measured. And I think people don't recognize that. To your point about personality, it's hard to, it can be hard to identify. We might have an idea of what that looks like for someone, but we also have to keep in mind that when people are interviewing, they're usually putting on their best face, right?

27:20We want to know what is like their actual day-to-day like feature, you know? Are they someone who is highly assertive, you know? I always use that example. I know you guys know that, but I always use that example of like, there can be two people who are both assertive. And one is like a bull in a china shop and unwilling to let other people speak or have thoughts and cuts them off. And the other person can be tempered a lot by empathy and understanding. And so they create opportunities, even though they're still willing to speak up and be assertive, right?

27:54Like there are two different things. Or kind of the same feature, but showing up in different ways. And I think in a lot of ways, that is where a lot of my clients, but also other people out there, organizations, choose to have a little bit more kind of that objective data added, usually toward the end of it. It's not that they put everyone and their brother through, everyone who submits a resume through an assessment, but they usually choose the last couple. And I can actually give you an example of one that I've done recently.

28:25I obviously won't say a name of a company or anything like that, but it was a really important hire, just given how the organization was scaling, right? And so the role was an operational executive, so high-level operations. And they brought two candidates forward, okay? One of them was really, through the data, you could just see through the data, through the conversation, like all the information we had, you could see that this one candidate really thrived in an ambiguous situation, right?

29:00Like they loved ambiguity, they loved building things, there was a lot of creativity, if you will, kind of in their personality, they're motivated to create, like all of those things, right? And the other candidate was equally strong when we looked at qualifications on paper, presentation during interviews, equally strong, but was really, really skilled and motivated by optimizing systems that already existed, right? So making them better, right? I would argue that just generally speaking, neither one is better, you know?

29:35I mean, sometimes we want really creative people, and sometimes we need really people who are ready to optimize systems that exist. But what I can tell you is the context of this organization was one that needed that structure. It needed it. It didn't have a lot of standard operating processes, or it does, but it wasn't, they weren't super confident in how they were working, right? They weren't writing down, they weren't like true set in stone. Right, right, right. And so like they needed to have somebody in that moment, in that context for the place they were going, thinking of their strategic plan, to use or to be able to create.

30:16They needed those systems. They had to have somebody who was thinking outside of the box, right? And so when we really looked at the two candidates, again, one that was highly creative, thrives in ambiguous situations, and the other one who was really focused on optimizing those existing systems, what we knew and what we learned is that the person, right, who was able to build and create would ramp up faster. They would see an ROI faster by hiring this person, right?

30:48They are both capable humans, and I promise you, I met with both of them. They are both absolutely capable humans, and in a different context, the other person would have totally been an amazing hire. However, that alignment to what was needed in the time and for the future state of the organization was the individual. Now, what I heard from the hiring team was, well, I just, they're both really great. Like, I just don't know which way to go. We can't figure it out, da, da, da. And so they use data to understand it.

31:19And I think that is a perfect example of how data can be used, more objective data can be used to not replace the hiring process, but to supplement it or to help people feel more confident in the direction they're going. Yeah, I actually really like that example because I also think you can get into, like, the biases of even those individuals that are hiring. Yes, it's great to bring in external people, but assessments ultimately can help overcome some of these biases.

31:50For example, you might have a hiring manager who specifically has just gone through a situation where they needed a manager or a leader to be more objective and to, you know, focus on improving existing systems and optimizing them rather than someone that's going to be more creative and try to change them and, you know, facilitate them in a different way. And so in that case, that hiring manager might be biased towards the person for optimization rather than the person for creativity, even though in the end, the ROI for the creative person would have been more quick and better.

32:30And so I think those assessments need to come in, since the hiring manager may have a bias for what types of skill sets they appreciate more. All in all, I could see how both of those individuals could assist with the overall development of systems and SOPs and whatnot. But it does depend on what the level of those SOPs would be or the systems would be. You know, for me, someone for optimization, for something that really just needs to get written down might be better versus if there's gaps, the creativity might be better.

33:04But again, might be. And that's where the assessments come in to really measure not just the ROI, but capabilities and how it truly, how each of these candidates would attach themselves to the system. So could you take up a little bit into the assessment, utilize, even if it's just some descriptors about it? Yeah, I want to say one thing before we go there, though, if that's OK, just because you brought up like the bias part of it. And I think that that the what comes to mind in psychology is the like me bias.

33:35And it's and whether we like it or not, it's it. Yes, I mean, I mean, I'm guilty of it, too. Like even when it just comes to friendships at times, it's like, well, OK, who do I want to invite to go to the Minnesota Wild hockey game? Right. It's like, well, who do I like being around the most? Like, I know that sounds terrible. Right. Like I like and I hope my friends don't listen to this episode because they might question if they've not been invited. I don't think so, because you have different friends for different things. I do. I do. That's true. Right. But it's like but so there is that like me bias and it does happen sometimes. Right. So even though somebody, you know, the hiring manager, the team, again, in that example that I just gave and this is not necessarily true,

34:11but even though they may have be people who really like like the structure and all that, it might find it a little off putting to have someone a little bit more creative and innovative in that space. You might want a challenge person, but need a challenging person. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that by but the the point is that if you can measure some of these things and use some of that objective data and then tie it to your KPIs and tie it to your strategic plan and try to look at it in that way, it's a really strategic decision that shifts you from who do I like more?

34:44Right. Which is the like me bias. Right. Like, who do I like? And it shifts it to what does this organization or this team need more of right now? Right. And I think that that shift is where the strategic hiring really does come in. Yeah. Yeah. And I know, actually, Elizabeth, I'm going to be bringing you on on one of my projects. projects soon. And it's because we need assessments with hiring and and I need it to be a little bit more honed in of an assessment.

35:15But like I noted earlier, could you take us through a little bit about those assessments, whether that just be descriptors or names? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think it's interesting because, you know, I obviously own my own company now. And so I do assessments and I have a lot of control over what I use for objective data measures. But I have worked for other firms as well, two other firms. And so I'm aware a little bit of kind of how they structure things. I would say there are some pretty common places or common pieces that are a part of an assessment generally.

35:48And some of this I will also I'm using a lot of caveats, but some of it depends a little bit on the level of position, whether that's an entry level person to an executive. Some of it does depend. But I would say kind of those those standard pieces generally are some measure of personality. So understanding kind of different personality kind of attributes and what is kind of their natural, innate. You know, personality profile, I guess. Right.

36:20So I would say that's typically something within the I.O. field. A really common one is the California psychological inventory. I would say that that is a it's I would argue and I think it's been argued by others that it's kind of a pretty gold standard for I.O. psychology, because, of course, there are many personality measures out there, but the purpose or the intention is different. For anyone who's not an I.O. person, if we have other listeners like, you know, you might be familiar with like an MMPI or an MC, MCMI or PAI.

36:55Those are all personality measures that, yes, give you a lot of information, but their intention is more for mental health. Right. And so we have to keep in mind that not all measure. No, there's not one measure. They're not all exactly the same. OK, like their intended purpose is different. So you have to keep that in mind and know what that is. So anyway, I went on tangent there, but I just think that's important because it's tempting to like pick up a tool. And I think I see this a lot. Places want people or people, places, organizations look for like the quick and easy silver bullet.

37:30Like this is going to tell me everything I need to know. But I would argue and I think many people would argue in the I.O. field that each person is made up more made up of more than their personality. Right. Yeah. So your personality is, you know, that might be kind of like the basics of who you are at that time. You know, there's the argument of whether personality changes or not, but there's that's who you are at that time. But the way in which you express that personality and how it connects to those.

38:03Soft skills, those essential skills, that's going to be different. And so you could have two people with the same exact personality who handle situations entirely differently. Yeah. But OK, so in some cases, within some like personality testing cases. And I say that because, you know, it's actually interesting. So people with a lower level of the psychological knowledge might know about the big five. They might know about the Myers-Briggs 16 personalities test, things like that. Those are things that aren't they're not going to give you the same extent to the California psychological inventory.

38:40And on top of that, the data, there's arguments behind data at times. The stats behind that test in general. Yeah, it's not. They're not. I mean, they're. Yeah, they're fine. I will say, too, just on that, not like the Myers-Briggs psychometrically sound. That's what I was going to go. Yes, yes. They're fine, but they're not sound. Yeah, that's my that's my data oriented brain that tells that knows that. But I will even say just and I'm not talking down. That's not what I'm trying to do.

39:11But I will even say, like on the Myers-Briggs, like it in it says on it, like on the website, it explicitly says that this is not intended to be used for hiring purposes. And so I think that is an important part, too, is that it is easy to pull those things. And it leaves organizations who choose that to or who choose to use something that is not intended for that purpose to be susceptible to legal challenges. And and not everyone knows that.

39:41But it has happened where people have pulled up a particular tool that they think is really cool and really neat, used it without having kind of the proper safeguards in place and have faced legal challenge and expensive legal challenge. So that is one thing that like when I'm choosing assessments, it is all about what was it not all about, but it's what is best for the client and what will help us stand up in court if it ever came to that point. Has not gone wood, has not come to that point, because, again,

40:11I'm using tools that are psychometrically sound and used for their intended purposes. You know, I think that's getting into the compliance side of, you know, even assessments. You know, there is a compliance behind assessments, just like there's a compliance behind like the use of AI in hiring. And that is something to take into account. But that's also why looking to experts to help you could be beneficial. But also at the same time, it removes the, quote, luck out of hiring and helps with the objectivity all in all. So you might be making an investment to work with someone, but that investment is going to pay for itself three, four or five times over

40:49in the amount you're saving when it comes to bad recruitment and bad hiring. I agree. Yeah, I completely agree. And I mean, I know we're kind of getting to the end here of our podcast, but I will say, like, some other things that people consider and for, again, my firm and some of the firms that I, you know, partner with, a big thing for us is looking at the person holistically and trying to understand, like, what are all the attributes they bring. So while we just talked about personality, you know, there could be a motivational component to that.

41:21There could be, there should be a critical thinking, problem solving. You know, again, depending on the type of role, like, you might want to understand how some, how detail oriented somebody is. I always like, because I work with a lot of construction companies and engineering companies. And like, if you're building a bridge or a building, I sure want to understand that you have a perception, you're pretty strong in perceptual reasoning so that when you look at those blueprints, you immediately look and say, this is not safe, right? Like, that is important. So, like, those types of industries benefit significantly from the objective assessment data.

41:58And I think that's the reason why a lot of my client load is that, is because they recognize that the ramifications of not knowing and just going by what somebody says can be really, really detrimental and harmful even. So that's just another example. I, I, yeah, it's, it's definitely interesting to look at. But it is, it is not. I want to say like it, you can feel lucky that you got a really great team member. I think that's really important, you know, and that does not replace the need to truly understand

42:34and assess what somebody is bringing to the table because there are, and I'm, I mean, I'm one of those people, I can BS my way through most of any, anything like that. That's just, and I don't mean that to sound really bad, but like there are times where I'm like, I have no idea what we're talking about, but I can pick up things enough to make it through. But if you were to assess my skill set, you will learn as you talk, allowing you to apply knowledge that you do have separately that relates into the conversation. And I think that's really important, but that doesn't mean that you don't go after the

43:07conversation and learn more and look it up. I'm sure you do that just like I do. I mean, I, I think it's really important to even learn from every conversation you have. I, I do think that from someone that's in a completely different area that you don't think will ever apply to you, you can probably still learn something from them that'll help you later in life, even in your specific industry or what you're specifically doing. You would have, you have no idea how much I know about building bridges and stormwater facilities, but if you asked me to go and design a stormwater facility while I know the terms,

43:43because I've heard them a million times from my clients and I find it really fascinating to learn, there is no way that I'd be able to design and build a stormwater facility that doesn't cause a flood, you know? So like, let's be honest, I could probably talk the talk, but definitely can't walk the walk. And that's okay because it's not my expertise, right? I think it's good to note that you have that like an understanding because that helps you better understand the hiring needs for that company. And so when you're looking for professionals to, to work with, or if you have a professional

44:13on your team that's helping you do, do assessments and ensure that you truly have measurable hiring, um, that person should, should really have an understanding of the job and that person finding that correct person is also important because you need to find someone who can develop knowledge of areas that aren't their expertise to, and, or to ensure they're hiring for the right things. Um, you know, it's funny. I actually talk with my partner, electrical, he, and, uh, no, I don't know how to wire a house necessarily, but I understand the word verbiage that he's using.

44:46And so I can help him hire for positions. Right. Um, that's just a quick, um, a quick example, simply because we were talking about it yesterday. Um, not the hiring conversation I was talking about, but that was another one I had. Um, and you know, luck all in all, yes, you can feel lucky that you've gotten the correct candidate that you really, you, you feel fortunate that you've brought on the right person and, and things are going smoothly in the ROI you were hoping to see, or technically expecting to see based off those measurable stats you are in fact getting.

45:18Yes, you can feel fortunate. Um, but I would say that luck doesn't necessarily apply to hiring because it is, it does need to be measurable. It does need to be understandable and as objective as you can make it with objectivity, even within your subjectivity. Um, and you know, some people might say, well, at least I feel, I at least feel lucky that they applied. Even then I'd have an argument. Did you post it to the right places? Did you post the right position? Do you have the right pay? Do you have the right benefits? Do you have the right title to attract them?

45:51Was it in the right location? And did you use recruiters looking for the right people? So even that I think would be measurable. So it's not just the people you are hiring, but the people you have helping you hire being the correct. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think all in all, it's about validating the data. We like in my world, in our world, like we understand that there is a significant amount of data that comes from the hiring process through recruitment, through interviewing and all those things. So I, I don't want to downplay that because in no way is what I do a replacement.

46:25It's more about a validation or helping to understand how might this actually like come to be. So all in all, I think, you know, if you, if you, um, are thinking about, you know, or if maybe a hiring team is talking about luck, right. And being lucky about a hiring decision or whatever, I think it really, we can again, shift that question to, you know, not just is like, you know, is this the best right? And like right now, but what additional insight would help us feel more confident in this decision?

46:58Because that is truly where that, that, I mean, that opens the opportunities, right? It's understanding what you have and what more you want to know. Um, it does. And I will also, I just want to put this in there. It doesn't mean that the hiring process has to last longer. So it actually, in a lot of ways can decrease the amount of time that it takes to hire somebody. So keep that in mind. And, you know, and obviously if you're, you're curious, reach out to any one of us. We're happy to talk more about it, uh, with you.

47:27Oh, uh, should we, I think we should wrap up for today. I think this actually decreases your timeline, not increases. I think that that's a really great last note to have and I, I, we should definitely end with that since it's the, probably one of the, not the main thing we want you to get out of this, but a really important figure of this podcast too. Yep. Just another example of an ROI. So. Well, listeners, this concludes another intriguing episode of Organizational Sherlock's.

47:59I'm Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth reminding you that the journey to success is an ongoing investigation. As we've talked about a lot today, stay curious, stay strategic, and keep utilizing insights to decode your business mysteries. Join us every Friday for your next whodunit. This is Organizational Sherlock's closing today's case. We will see you all next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for those who celebrate.

48:35We'll see you all next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick's Day for the next time and happy St. Patrick