S314: The Science of Coachability: Psychological Insights for Leaders

Introduction

0:00Welcome to Organizational Sherlocks, the podcast where business meets psychology and your organizational puzzles meet their match. Join us for captivating stories and practical solutions to unravel your toughest challenges. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth, your guides to prescription for business success. Let's dive in. Well, hello, listeners. We are

0:32really excited to be here with you today. And we have a really fun conversation that Morgan and I have been chatting about kind of on the back end. So we thought we would bring it out to all of you

Concept of Coachability

0:42to kind of hear what's on our mind. So today, I think we're really focusing on this concept of coachability. The idea that some people take feedback and they grow from it, while others hear the same message and kind of experience feeling defensive or stuck or just quietly disengaging from their work. And so today, Morgan and I are really going to break down what coachability really is and why change at work is rarely just about someone's willpower. We're going to explore readiness for change, choosing the right intervention, and then also recognizing when the real barrier

1:17is maybe their role or the system. It's not about the person. Yeah. So two people can get the same exact feedback. One grows, one gets stuck. Why? Stay tuned to learn. So, I mean, I think we should just dive right into it. Elizabeth, I guess I'd like to start at framing in a way of tell us about the overarching

Theory Behind Coachability

1:44theory behind coachability and why we have to start with that theory. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great way to kind of start it off. I like to think about it as like a funnel, right? We're kind of going from the bigger high part of the funnel all the way down through. So when I think about coachability, I'm often kind of asking questions of my clients or trying to assess, you know, what kind of mindset does the person kind of engage with, you know, in that moment

2:14in time or in that as part of their life. So people might be familiar with the idea of a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. Fixed mindsets really are just kind of as it sounds, being really fixed and kind of this is just who I am. This is how I am. This is how I act and not really interested in making a whole lot of change. Whereas folks who are really interested in kind of growing and developing, usually the people who raise their hand first when you say, hey, who wants to go to

2:46this conference or this training, right? They might be coming with more of a growth mindset. So being interested in building a new skill set or, you know, treating things like practice. I want to learn. I want to try new things and grow. And so I think when I think about, again, that funnel, we think about the bigger, you know, what kind of mindset are you bringing into the possibility of coaching and

Growth Mindset Theory

3:09growth overall? Yeah, I think utilizing growth mindset theory, seeing where someone is to start, you need to kind of determine where that person's foundation is. Are they willing to change? Are they not willing? That's so again, it's not necessarily about willpower, but it's about are they naturally ready to start growing? Are they naturally ready to start developing their mindset? And also, I feel like to lay our framework possibly correctly, we should probably discuss

3:42the actual definition behind coachability. Yeah. Want to share it for us? Yeah. So coachability, it's the capacity and sometimes willingness to receive feedback accurately, regulate ego threat, and translate insight into sustained behavior change. So coachability combined with growth mindset theory allows us to determine, lays the foundation for us to determine how we approach people and the interventions that we would use with each of these individual people. Within that

4:13intervention, there will be multiple levels of intervention, all relating to other psychological theories that relate to growth mindset theory. Yeah. And before we dive into those theories, I do want to just note because I get this question a lot. And actually, in my office, I have a picture of the growth and the fixed mindset with some examples. And I wish I had a picture. Maybe I'll try to take one and post it. But I do want to just note that people can shift their mindset over time. So if you're someone or you know someone who feels very fixed right now,

4:46it doesn't mean that that won't change. And so I just want to kind of open that up and say that, you know, there are so many kind of external factors that impact what are kind of where our mindset is. Right. And so in a lot of ways, as leaders, it's an opportunity to explore that mindset, but also explore the why behind it. You know, are they feeling stagnant in their role? Are they feeling undervalued or underappreciated? Is that contributing to the fixed mindset? And could that change? Right. So I just wanted to lay that out there before we dive deeper into different

5:17ecological theories, because I think there is this sometimes this idea that, well, if I have a fixed mindset now, it means I will forever. And that's not necessarily true. Yeah, I think that's a great relation to the idea that like kind of your personality can shift too. And I mean, we can think of it like in the big five openness, you know, someone's openness to experience. You know, you might be more open in some scenarios than other scenarios. For example, you might be open to travel and seeing other cultures, but you might be more closed minded in the sense of or fixed minded in the in the sense

5:54of, say, like a work process or something or the route you take to work, even, you know, something as small as that. And so I guess on a on a more granular level, for those that aren't don't have that psychological education backing them, think of the openness and you can start there and think of that with your people or even with yourself if you're going into coachable natures. Yeah. Yeah. And I just add one more thing is it made me think about something that you said, I mean, like, so from a

6:25psychology standpoint, or a psychological standpoint, right, to your point about personality, like, I think it's important for us to distinguish between personality and behavior. Because while our personalities are generally kind of defined for the most part, usually in our early 20s or so, and our I'm getting to probably in depth when our frontal lobe is developed. Anyway, not the point that usually happens around 25 a little bit earlier for some than others. But we won't get into the deep, deep, dark parts of

6:56psychophys or anything. But I will say, though, that the way that that personality manifests and how it shows up in behavior, you have a lot more control over that, right? I always and I think I've given this example on the podcast before, but you know, you can be someone who is very assertive. That's unlikely to change, right? You're not going to end up 10 years down the line not being assertive, right? But the way that you assert your opinions or your thoughts may change. And that's really that manifestation of the behavior versus the attribute itself. Does that make sense? Yes. No, I think that's a great way to

7:32show that, you know, you might have a, like a personality kind of range in a way, and you're going to stay within that. But the way you express it will be differently, will be different. Same idea of when you're, you know, you're having an argument, and the next time you approach a similar situation, you approach it differently, you know, you've learned from it. And I would argue it's similar in the way that you express your personality, not to get too off topic. But again, something to take into account when we are approaching someone who needs coaching in the workplace, we have to think of these things,

8:08we have to see what is this person's foundation? How do they approach things? How do they express their growth mindset or and or fixed mindset? Or are they on a range? Like, they aren't necessarily not coachable, but they might not necessarily be coachable. There's a range between the two. So where do they sit in order to determine how we approach them? Yeah, well, and I know, kind of off, like, it's, but it's still within topic, because when we think about coaching, and then this is a big part of what I do, like, it's not, I'm not going to change

8:41someone's personality or way of being in the world. That's not what coaching is about, right? Coaching is about helping to leverage the strengths that they bring in from their personality and their motivations and all those things. And so leveraging those things, but also figuring out how can you work through some of those areas that maybe are not so natural for you, you know, so just because and I'll give an example, you know, just because you are not someone who's really loud, or the one who's, you know, speaking up first in the meetings, or asserting opinions or challenging people doesn't

9:15mean you can't be a strong leader, even though in society, we often view strong leaders as those who are one of the loudest in the room, right? And so coachability or coaching, the practice of coaching is really about that behavior change, that in a way that is grounded, and tailored to the person. And I think that hopefully sets us up for some of these theories, because it's really, there's not a one size fits all solution for coaching. There's just that. Yeah. And I think you kind of let us

9:46right into some of these theories. You know, when we talk about like autonomy, competence, to start, you know, someone's competencies, what they're naturally strong in autonomy, they're not naturally going to want to maybe speak out in a session, an employee session. So they have ownership over it. So, you know, that kind of leads us into that first theory.

Self-Determination Theory

10:09Yeah, I really like self-determination theory, personally, I think it's interesting. And it's an interesting way to just kind of observe and think about, you know, the people that I coach or the people that I work with, even myself, sometimes kind of doing some of that internal reflection. But yeah, I mean, you mentioned autonomy and competence. And I think psychological safety, the environment, the system also really matters when we think about self-determination theory, and how people kind of engage with change. You know, if people don't

10:46have choice, like think about it. I mean, if you think about Morgan, when you and I were kids, right? Like if our parents didn't give us choices, we were much more likely to push back. Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. That's why we make his choices sometimes. Exactly. That's why when that's why and I mean, I know I'm a parent, so I whatever, but that's why it's never go do this. It's okay. You can do this or this, your choice. You have some of that autonomy, both options I'm fine with, right? But it's teaching them how to engage with autonomy, right?

11:17That is not any different than us as adults. There are times where we have to kind of think about what choice do I have and what do I own, right? And then the, yeah, so yeah. And then, you know, thinking about, again, the competence piece of it that really boils down to the strengths that we talked about before. And then again, is it safe? Is it an environment where people can feel like change is possible? Yeah. So all in all, just want to give this kind of background for our listeners,

11:48a self-determination theory. It's the framework for understanding human motivation, focusing on the drive towards growth, hence related to growth mindset theory, mindset and mastery and integration. So it kind of, it positions those coaches to know where these people are more intrinsically motivated due to those factors that we've just assessed, the autonomy, the competence, the relatedness, so the psychological safety, right? Again, I always like to say this. I always

12:19like to paraphrase psychological safety. We're talking about it in a scientific term. I know a lot of leaders, a lot of business owners, they kind of roll their eyes at that term. And I can say it from personal experience because when it's not used appropriately, we have to think of psychological safety as in the feeling as though they can make moves, they can problem solve, they can make decisions and feel confident in expressing what their opinions are. Obviously, in a respectful, correct manner, yes, but it's the ability to voice concerns, the ability to do those things, the need to

12:56console them, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I always like to say that. Yeah, I think that's right. I do a lot of work in, around psychological safety. And I recently did a session for a local government around psychological safety. And, and to your point, like, it's really just about being able to vocalize things in a way that doesn't create retribution, that you're not going to get in trouble for disagreeing or seeing things differently or making a decision. But again, that psychological safety is

13:27really grounded in my mind in systems theory, which we're not, we don't have to get into in depth. But if the system doesn't allow for people to share their opinions, if it doesn't allow autonomy to make decisions or take ownership of tasks, this is where I think in a lot of ways where systems theory and self-determination theory collide, right? And, and that in itself impacts the effectiveness of coaching, right? Yeah, no, I think you actually bring in, you know, another theory that is critical

Systems Theory and Coaching

13:58to the success of building growth mindset and or determining where someone's at and how to coach them best. It's the systems theory. When you're finding that the person has what they need growth mindset wise, they are naturally more coachable, everything is correct, but there's still barriers, that's when you might need to look at the role of the system. And that's when you need to look towards the systems theory, like, is there something actually in their environment that's preventing them from growth? Is that what's doing it? Obviously, that could bring me on to a whole nother level of

14:32conversation, which I do want to hint to later. But it's the idea of not only the foundation of the person is important, but the foundation of the organization pre-coaching is important. But you're going to have to wait for us to talk about that until a little later. There has to be some alignment there, Morgan, to use my favorite word. I don't think I've used that word in us in one of our recordings in a really long time. Oh, but you know, Elizabeth, I use it multiple times a day at work now with just every type of team. Every time. Yes, I know. But you know what? I want to do an episode sometime about what alignment is, just like in general and what it is not. So we should note that

15:07I think we need to. I'll make a, I'll make a, I'll make a big word here. Perfect. I think I should get it tattooed on my forehead. Alignment, just because, but I'm not, I won't. I promise, listeners, that'd be probably a little bit odd. Maybe you should, for the alignment episode, you can write it on your head. Just as a joke. I'm in. Okay, sorry. Okay, sorry, listeners. But we started with self-determination theory. Where is this person at? Where are they confident? Where do they have autonomy? You know, where are they naturally more confident, more intrinsically motivated? But where also might

15:39you face pushback as a coach? You know, what, what, what might you have issues with approaching with this individual? Because individuals may be more sensitive, or more, maybe more defensive towards some parts of coaching, but not other parts, or they might be more defensive naturally, or more open to feedback naturally, constructive criticism. So Elizabeth, tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think feedback has the, so I don't want to say this, just feedback in

16:13general has this incredible power to be, it can be really helpful, right? Like it's just, I don't know, like it's almost intangible to try to describe, right? And it is not just about the person giving the feedback. It's also about the person receiving it, right? And so that's why, like, when we do trainings and we talk with people, it's, it's really about how do you give feedback, right? But also how do you receive it? Because that's really important. And I think really what we're talking about within the context of coaching is how do you receive that feedback? There are times, there are things that get in

16:48people's way, right? When feedback really feels personal, you know, when it feels like it's threatening who you are and your identity, right? Our natural reaction as humans is to protect ourselves, right? And I think that makes sense. Like if I felt like I was being threatened by a scary looking big dog, I would want to protect myself, right? Same is true when it comes to feedback. Um, and so there, I think there's a few different ways that that kind of comes up and we, and we

17:19think about them as being more about those defense mechanisms. Um, we talked about it earlier, uh, as ego threat and without getting too far into the, you know, the ego, the id and the super ego, which are, if you're interested in, it's kind of an interesting theory, um, about what's happening for us. But when something threatens our identity or our ego, right, um, there's a tendency to protect us or want to protect ourselves. So, uh, I mean, the term ego is used in, you know,

17:49pop culture very naturally. Yes. Usually it's more, it's used more as a, um,

17:57Like a negative thing. Yeah. As a negative term, as an insult. This person's egotistic, for example, or they have a large ego. Um, but if we think of it on a lower side, you know, everyone has an ego of some sort and different levels of egos, you know, some people might have a larger, more defensive one. Um, they might have a lower one, or maybe they have, you know, low self-esteem, which usually plays into issues with ego. And, um, but all in all people will

18:28likely be defensive. It's just a matter of how defensive they are, I guess. But how they work through it when they are defensive as well, you know, I think it's like this, when I think about ego, it's like, how sophisticated is, is that? Like how, you know, and I think as we get older, oftentimes, you know, we get to know ourselves a little bit more, more, a little bit. Typic, I mean, I know I'm generalizing, but we tend to, I don't know, how do I say it? Like just your ego becomes stronger as you, as you age, um, because you know yourself more, you've experienced life, you've had experiences, you know?

19:01Well, what determination theory plays in, right? Um, but all in all, um, even when we relate it back to systems theory, so the system and, you know, is the system the problem or could the person partially be at fault for some of this, these issues with growth mindset? When we think of systems, um, the way in which feedback is given is, is critical to think on. Um, I would love to kind of, I know we've given a groundwork for, for theories. I think we've talked about a lot of them through and through, um, I think we've maybe alluded to them or, or talk directly about them,

19:35but I think we could talk more on, you know, a coachability check and that foundation I hinted towards earlier, not just the foundation of the person, but the foundation of the organization too. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes perfect sense. You want to take it away?

Coachability Check

19:50Yeah, sure. I would love to start with this six question coachability check. Um, one, do they get curious or litigate feedback? So that relates back to ego and defense mechanisms. Um, can they name impact without over-explaining intent? Can they stay regulated? Will they run small experiments for two weeks? So this is the whole idea of like once you're in those sessions, those coaching sessions, um, do they invite accountability and follow-up? Is the system reinforcing the new behavior? So again, we get into the system too. Um, so these questions are a really

20:25great example to, to determine where you're at coachability wise, where you're at growth mindset wise with an individual. Um, and that helps you determine how you're going to approach them. Um,

20:39if you're finding that there's systems issues, then you need to look at what to do when coaching isn't enough. And that's when you look at the foundation of the organization. Yeah. When I think, and you know, and I've experienced this where maybe coaching, it's not the right time. Right. And I think that I, I think about it for consultants that are listening here, if you are a consultant or want to be a consultant, I think that's a really important skill to have. Um, and an important thing to think about is that sometimes people

21:11just are not quite ready for it, whether that's because the system's not ready for coaching to be embedded within it or the person themselves is kind of, you know, maybe more in that fixed mindset or just kind of not really contemplating change, if you will. Um, there is, there's a part of being a consultant where you have to say right now might not be the right time, but let's think about how we can begin to prep this person and help them learn so that coaching will be effective because, and I know I've said this to you, Morgan, there is nothing worse as a consultant, but I think also as a

21:44coach E then having it feel like it's a waste of your time, you know, that coaching is a waste of your time. Like that, there's nothing worse than that. Like I, I've experienced it early on in my career. And that was like, I think about it even today. Like, I wish I just would have said, you know, now is not the right time, right? We have more other work needs to be done before we can really jump into the depth that we need to, to help you be a friend. Yeah. And to bring our, you know, off recording conversation in, it's the idea of, you know, also

22:15do you have a more, I guess, professional coach, or do you have a more like natural internal coach too? And I would argue that, you know, bring a professional coach in is so critical to the success of a coaching, coaching system. But I do think you need to start with that informal coaching within the organization where it builds expectations towards feedback, towards growth, towards development. It, it starts to create the non-negotiables and why then coaching might become

22:52critical for this person. It develops the behavior metrics that you are looking at when using performance management systems, but then also again, why you're, lays the foundation for why you're bringing that professional coach in. You know, there's a very, there's a huge difference between informal coaching and professional coaching. But I, sometimes I tend to argue that informal coaching is the way to prepare someone for professional coaching, um, as long as it's done correctly. Yeah. I, I agree. And honestly, I, there, I've, I've seen a lot of organizations,

23:27um, people I've worked with or, or not, um, that have actually started bringing speakers in to organizations with their leadership teams, um, to help them kind of learn how to do some of that informal coaching, right? Yes. It's a little bit more, not scripted, but a little bit more methodical, if you will. Um, how do you give that feedback? What does that look like? And so people have been doing that. And I think that is really beneficial. And I want to call out that, yes, some people use

23:58a more methodical coaching style, but then you have folks kind of in the IO fields, maybe, you know, counseling psychologists like me, um, that take a different approach to it. It's not as methodical. It's not so like, this is the way that coaching should be done. Um, I don't know how else to describe that, but I think that's, that's important. So there are still ways that you can teach people, even if they've never teach leaders, even if they've never done coaching, have, you know, never really engaged in psychology or really understand human behavior all that much,

24:31there are still ways to give them tools to do some of that informal coaching and to set people up for success for some of that more kind of the depth, right? The funnel coaching, if you want to call it going back to that analogy. When you prepare the leaders to do that informal coaching, I feel like you tend to touch on these psychological theories. You might, you may actually say the specific theory and give the definition, but then talk about it in real life practice, but they may also just use the layman's terms surrounding this theory and might simply use

25:04the in-practice side of it. Um, and I think that's also where you see those, those breaks within, um, PhDs versus PSYDs too, is, you know, the in-practice versus the, the actual research and the theory and the scientific side of it. But, um, truly preparing your team to be informal coaches and then not just with training to leaders to be the best leader, but also the values and the system backing it. Um,

25:35so oftentimes, you know, I, I've talked, I actually just said it in our, our off, um, recording is, you know, I, I tend to talk to applicants when I, when I'm, um, working with a company who is change-based development-based and I tend to say, oh, like, Hey, so this is a learning organization. Like I immediately say that. And then I ask, then tell me about a time you innovated something in your previous workplace. You know, I use that exact phrase, you know, I give them the reason I'm asking, but I'm also not leading them. I'm asking them a direct question and that immediately starts to

26:09get the right type of people for growth mindset on that, have those growth mindsets on the team. Um, if you're expecting them to immediately go in and start coaching, yes, it's, yes, you may find barriers within the individual still, but at least you have preparation for those barriers when they join the team. Yeah, I agree. I just want to say one other thing is a popped in my mind. Um, I also coaching is not like using a professional coach is not really in my mind appropriate when

26:39you're already having a lot of performance issues. I think that's another thing to just think about. I know it's kind of a little bit off topic, but, um, if you're thinking, oh, a coach is going to come in and fix everything, but things are pretty bad already that like, yes, call let's consult, let's figure it out. But coaching may not, or like professional coaching at first may not be the best move. There might be other things like more strategic things you can do from a systems level ahead of time to then prepare them for that place. Because think about it again, if we go back to like

27:10the kid example, if I already feel, if I'm a kid and I already feel like I'm in trouble, what are the chances I'm going to want to do really anything that you want me to do? You know? Um, or if I do choose to do the thing you want me to do, it's because I feel coerced into it. And that does not set up a very good, um, foundation for success. No, and that's why I, it's critical that you have those

Non-Negotiables and Consequences

27:31non-negotiables on the table. You have those expectations. You're already measuring performance in some way, shape or form, or discussing it or pushing out those expectations. And then, you know, when harm is happening, have consequences. Um, that's also why it's so important to separate professional coaching from that informal systems management and sometimes informal coaching. Um, so first and foremost, organizations need to check their systems, you know, and the system allow someone to go into coaching. Second, if you say, oh yeah, our system, you know, we might not have

28:07the best performance metrics or we might not have the best, um, you know, expectations laid out, but this person is performing. They feel like they can voice things. They feel like they can develop. Okay. Yes, we can look towards, and we can look towards that professional coaching. Um, obviously there's not hopefully any issues with, with performance at that point in time. Um, and I'd also, and with that, I'd say that oftentimes when you're looking to bring coaching in, you're looking at the proact, you're looking at it in a proactive manner. You know, you're preparing this individual

28:40to develop, not because of reactive, trying to fix behavior issues, but proactively trying to get this person to the next level for the organization. Um, you know, I have a prime example of this is I, uh, we had a team who, um, they were going to need a leader in a year or so. Um, there was technically an informal leader in there. The person was retiring. Um, the informal leader though, wasn't a true leader for the organ, for the department, if that makes sense. And so someone was looked at a year in advance

29:11and said, this person could be that leader for this department. Um, they could be promoted to a leadership level, but in order to get them there, we need to start with where's their foundation? What's the organization's foundation? Have some informal coaching, building those expectations, kind of seeing if it's going to be an interest for that person to lead the department, you know, their comfort level with speaking up and, you know, directing others. And that then led into

29:44adding, having the person go through professional coaching. There were no performance issues with this person. Um, person had a, had amazing knowledge of the department and of the overall organization, but they didn't have many leadership skills. They had a leadership mindset, but they weren't, they're more of that kind of introverted, um, quiet, not so outspoken individual. Um, but the knowledge was there. That knowledge of the organization was the critical foundation. And this person loved getting

30:19feedback too, which was even better. So there was already the, the stars were aligning. So this person went through professional coaching and has since been promoted to the position, still gets informal coaching to today because you can never stop growing is, is what I tend to say. Um, and that informal coaching can, can look like just pushing back to the person saying, well, what do you think? It could be, Hey, I know you saw this or, Hey, I have an idea here, but I want to solve this problem of yours, but let me see if you can figure it out. Like kind of challenging them to keep take,

30:54taking the next step on that staircase towards ultimate leadership. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good example. I know I have a example very similar to that, so I won't necessarily get down into the weeds there, but, um, what you're describing in, in that person is potential that there, that you saw potential, right. And then you took you or whoever made the decision, I guess, um, took the opportunity to kind of invest in that person's potential to help them grow. Right. Um, and I think that's really important. And a lot of times, you know, that's,

31:26that's where professional coaches come in. Um, and I will say, and I know we're IO people, so I, of course, maybe I'm a little bit biased towards the IO field, but I think that is one really cool thing that IOs bring to the field, um, versus, you know, folks who maybe just have certifications, um, in coaching. I think you, you bring this kind of this discernment around what is actually needed in this moment, right. Um, is it that they need this professional coaching?

31:57Because again, you see the potential and you want to develop that or is there performance, you know, are there performance issues that are happening? Right. And, and if that's the case, it doesn't mean that someone like us wouldn't be a good fit. It just means that we wouldn't probably be doing coaching. Um, in my mind, when I have these conversations with clients, it's right now, I usually go to a place of right now, what you need is process consulting. Um, we need to talk about the process, the system, engage with the person on a process level so that we can help improve that performance. And then maybe coaching in the future seems like

32:33a good thing, right. Or could help. Um, but I think that is important. And I would encourage anyone who maybe is, you know, thinking, gosh, I can think of an exact person that this might be helpful for whatever, you know, to reach out to a professional coach, reach out to us. Like we're happy to kind of help you navigate and figure out maybe what is needed right now. Um, and, and what would be most beneficial. So I say that just to say, like I, the example I was thinking of, there are people on a team that I do coach, right. That we, I have been coaching for a while

33:05and the team as a whole needs more process consulting. And so it was important that the client who hires me to work with them knows that right now in this capacity I'm coaching, but in this other capacity, it's more about process consulting. And I think that just being able to describe that sets the foundation or the tone for what this is going to look like, but not everyone has all of those offerings, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think I would agree with you also working with, you know, uh, an IO consulting organization that might have multiple pieces of it going on. Um,

33:39so that there's multiple people who have maybe different specialties, you know, for example, Elizabeth's consulting company. Um, but I think Elizabeth, you kind of have added back without using the term alignment as the alignment of the process and the alignment of the actual goal of coaching, putting them together. Um, and really dictates why determining the correct intervention is the most critical part to start with because when you find the correct intervention, it may be a

34:15stepping stone to the intervention that's actually desired by the organization. Um, but you, you want to be cautious to not bring someone in that is going to simply, you know, bring a consultant and that's simply going to do what you want to do within the coaching. Um, cause that's when you, your team will feel coerced, your, your team won't really feel like they're getting something out of it. The coach won't feel like they're, they're, you know, the team's getting something out of it. And then also the company would have probably wasted some money on that, uh, situation since you'd have to re go through the entire thing once the process is the develop, the foundation of the

34:49organization developed. Um, and so why would tutor? So to kind of go back to my original question is, so, you know, you tried to develop two people and one responded and one did not. Why is that? Well, were they in the same department? Did the departments have different systems, um, surrounding them? They, maybe the people have two very differing personalities in the way that they approach feedback. Um, it's critical to look at that to determine how you would approach these people

35:22differently. You know, one blueprint is not going to be the proper method for both individuals. It's very rare. You're going to use the exact same method over and over again. Instead, it's really customized to the person. Um, and that's why coaching comes about it's individual. It's based on the individual level. You might have the same goal for both people at the end, but the way to get them both get them each there is different. Um, I mean, even then I have another example I would love

35:52to give, and it's actually someone that had, had behavioral issues and took feedback, but didn't, if that makes sense. You know, they, they wanted the feedback, but they certainly, when they had something in their mind, that was the way. So they'll take the feedback and they'll apply it because that's what they understand. That's what's expected, but they might have a hard time personally buying into it. Um, so I have the, I had this individual working on a team and couldn't take

36:24direction, just sometimes couldn't take direction or didn't understand how to approach people, had amazing ideas, had absolutely amazing ideas, great suggestions to help, you know, push the process forward, make it improve, but never really thought of how his, how his ideas affected others around him. You know, I want this to happen. Okay. That's a great idea. Do you understand what it takes to get to that level? And there was a, well, I need this. I'm like, I understand you quote, you think you need that, but can you think about how it affects someone else? You know, they

36:59want certain information or certain something put together for them already. Well, someone has to do that work and you're adding work to someone else's plate because you don't find it or you find an issue or something's not perfect. And so this person's kind of having a, a little bit of a conniption, I will say about it. There was behavioral issues, the way that they responded to people, the way they approached people. And then also the, um, the way they responded to when the system wasn't perfect right off the bat, which nothing's ever a hundred percent perfect. Let's be honest. Progress

37:35over perfection is what I tend to say. And so this person ended up going through a little bit of behavioral discipline, but then after that, some informal and the expectations were more better, were better developed at that point. So then the expectations were driven down. Some informal coaching happened, which allowed some professional coaching to come in. And then the informal coaching continued after the fact. And now if this person has a slip up and they have a situation where they

38:08respond, not so great, or they give a suggestion and not so great a manner, it's, Hey, remember that conversation? Like the conversations you had of, you know, the best way to, to give a suggestion. Let's try to use that. Your suggestion is a good idea. Again, the whole idea of psychological safety, like this is a great idea, but let's remember how to respectfully state this. So it's that idea of the, the combination of discipline to informal, to get to the professional, but then to continue the informal and maintain that psychological safety where you still want the suggestion. So you

38:43don't want to prevent this person from feeling like they can't give them, but they do give them in the right manner. You know, they're respectful. They understand those around them. Yeah. I think it's about making it sticky. Like what's going to be sticky, you know,

Making Growth Sticky

38:56what's going to help those learnings just be a part of, of their, of their world and what's going to encourage continued growth. Um, and a growth mindset, you know, um, and it's definitely not unheard of in my world that I'm not working regularly with someone anymore, um, from a coaching perspective. And yet they, I have one client, I'm going to borrow their term because I, it made me laugh a little bit. I don't use this in my own business, but they use it. So it works. They'll send me an email and say, Hey, you know, Dr. Fleming, do you have any time for a bit of a tune up? Um, and it's really because that, that person and several of my

39:31clients, honestly, who just, there are times where they just want to have kind of an unbiased person to walk through what's happening and something they're worried about. I just need a little bit of support in this area. And so I think for people who are interested in engaging with coaches, it doesn't mean that they have to, um, be there for life. You know, I mean, I think there's like, kind of get through that part and then come back to tune ups. I think that's kind of a cool thing. So, um, I also realized we've been talking a lot about coaching and,

40:04um, people might, and I just want to throw this out there because I think people might have different ideas about what coaching is. The coaching we're talking about in this episode is really around that professional workplace coaching. There are, of course, other coaches out there like life coaches and, and whatever it might be. And so just, I think if you're curious and interested in coaching, but are trying to figure out, you know, who should I look for? What kind of person should I look for? Morgan and I are happy to be resources for you, um, in helping you figure that out. Um, because in this situation, um, if people are focused on life coaching, that may not be exactly what you want.

40:39Um, my Morgan and my kind of area of expertise is around the professional workplace leadership coaching. Um, I don't do life coaching. That's, I mean, life is a part of the conversation, of course, but not, that's not my focus. So I think I just wanted to call that out because they, they don't know. It's a different side of psychology. You know, we're, it is. Yeah. In IO, it's focused on the workplace. It's focused on business. It's focused on industry

41:10as is. Um, and so because of that, just, just ensure that you're, you're thinking of our conversation on coaching in regards to the workplace. Um, no matter what that workplace might be, but it's workplace based. Yeah. I mean, that's not to say that my clients don't share like, oh, I got married or, oh, I, you know, I'm at a loss in the family, like comes in. It always does. It's not impersonal in the coaching world. Like we can still share things. It's, it's just not,

41:40that's not the main focus. It might be a factor in what's happening in the workplace, but it's not, I'm not going to solve or help solve someone's grief around the loss of a parent or something like that. Right. That's not what it's going to be about, but it could be more about managing through that grief as it's manifesting within the workplace. So that's just kind of an example of what that looks like. And like all in all, like a lot of the theories are still underlying, but the examples we've given, the way we've talked about them are workplace oriented, but you know, all in

42:11all, people can change at work, but change, it's not just insight. It's not just willpower. Um, it's the readiness, it's motivation, it's safety, and it's practice with the system that reinforces the new behavior and all those, those tune-ins, tune-ups, tune-ups, tune-ups. Um, so if you're trying to coach someone and it's not moving, it's not working, don't just ask what's wrong with them, but maybe ask what is their mindset like at the moment? What's their motivation? What are their

42:42defenses? What's, what stage of coaching are we in? Um, and you know, what's the environment surrounding them? If, and you know, where, what has stuck and what hasn't stuck to, I guess, is a question to have. So all in all, um, sometimes coaching, it might not, it might not be the right time for coaching, but if you're already in that coaching session, take a step back, ask those questions about the person and about the system. See if those expectations are driven and see if you're simply trying to solve behavioral issues. You might not be doing the right thing at that point in time.

43:17Um, and if you're looking at bringing coaching in and it's, you're not sure if it's the right time, most coaching organizations will, or IO organizations will offer a consult. Um, and we are here to support you. So just let us know. Um, because sometimes it just helps to get kind of an outside perspective on where you're at. So with that listeners, this concludes another intriguing episode of Organizational Sharelocks. I'm Elizabeth Fleming. And I'm Morgan Ashworth reminding you that the journey to success is an ongoing investigation. Stay curious,

43:50stay strategic, and keep utilizing insights to decode your business mysteries. Join us every Friday for your next whodunit. This is Organizational Sherlock's closing today's case. We will see you next time. Bye for now. Bye. Bye.

44:22Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.