Everyday Neuro 027: Who Do You Think You Aren’t - The Psychology of Imposter Phenomenon

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0:32Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait. Have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight. And then you just don't because you don't have what you need. Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person. And honestly, Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last minute girls night. No planning, no groceries, nothing.

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Introduction to Imposter Phenomenon

3:02Hello and welcome to the Everyday Neuro podcast series. I'm your host, Dr. Janine Cooper, and I'm aiming to provide you with the knowledge and inspiration to understand the fascinating world of the human brain. So I'd like to ask you today a little question. It's quite personal and I hope you don't get offended when I ask you. If you've ever felt like a fraud or an imposter.

3:32Now maybe you're at work and you don't quite think you're up to the job or maybe you've been given a task and you can't quite believe that you're the one selected to do it. Now maybe this feels a little bit familiar. If it does, you might be surprised to find that you're not alone. In fact, today we are discussing a topic that's quietly sabotaging confidence, success and mental well-being across classrooms, boardrooms, studios and even therapy rooms.

4:02And that's the fantastic topic of imposter phenomenon. You might know it by its more popular name, imposter syndrome, but psychologists prefer the term phenomenon because it's not diagnosable mental disorder. It's a shared experience, even though a lot of people don't like to admit to it, and it's a psychological pattern. And if you have ever felt like an imposter, despite evidence quite to the contrary of your competence, then today you're going to find out you're really not alone.

4:34In fact, you're in really good company. 2020 Meta Analysis by Josephine Sakulku and Alexander Alexander published in Personality and Individual Differences found that up to 70% of people experience imposter feelings at some points in their lives. And it's actually apparently been experienced by well-known people such as the academic and activist Maya Angelou, the groundbreaking physicist Albert Einstein, my goodness, as well as attorney

5:09and first lady Michelle Obama. I mean, of lots of people, you would never imagine somebody feeling like a fraud like Michelle Obama. And also, for those of you that like Harry Potter, then the actress Emma Watson. From CEOs to students, countless high achievers have confessed feeling like they're just basically winging it, terrified that one day they'll be exposed as a fraud. So what's going on? Why do knowledgeable, capable people feel like they don't belong?

5:40And of course, because of this being the Everyday Neuro podcast, I'm also really interested to tell you more about the brain areas that are associated with imposter phenomenon. But before I can do that, I think it'd be great to find out what it is and so much more about this fascinating topic from somebody that is an expert. So I'm delighted to introduce you to today's guest, Dr. Ewan Bottomley from the School of Psychology

6:10at the University of Aberdeen in the northeast of Scotland. And Ewan has very kindly said yes to me quizzing him about this topic and one that I admit I didn't know too much about before meeting Ewan and hearing about his research, but one now that I can say I possibly can relate to at different points in my life.

Defining Imposter Phenomenon

6:33So welcome, Ewan. Hi, Janine. Thanks for having me. So can I start by asking you to define, you know, what is imposter phenomenon? Yeah, so imposter phenomenon is the false belief that you're underqualified or not capable for the position that you hold. So your listeners might have heard of it referred to as imposter syndrome before. So it's essentially the same thing. It was originally coined in the late 1970s by Clancy Nimes, and they believe that imposter phenomenon affected in particular high achieving women, things like CEOs, for example.

7:08We now know that it affects most people at some point in their lives. And this is particularly the case in periods of transition, which seem to be hotspots for imposter phenomenon. So this could be, for example, when people start a new job, maybe get promoted, or even something more trivial, like starting playing with a new football team, these new experiences tend to cause imposter phenomenon. It's interesting that it actually started with a kind of specific cohort in mind, you know, female CEOs.

7:38So what you're saying is actually it's quite general. It can affect anybody and any stage of their life. And I suppose my next question is added to that. So, you know, you've worked a lot with people who've been experiencing imposter phenomenon. What are the sort of common things that you see, Ewan? Yeah, so as part of my previous job, I did a lot of interviews with those who are experiencing an imposter phenomenon at quite a high level to see if there were some specific experiences that people had.

8:09A few things that came up quite consistently were, for example, social comparison. That was a big thing that came up for a lot of people. A lot of folks spoke about the feelings that others were more capable than them and that they didn't live up to the standards of their peers. I mean, to some degree, it's quite normal to socially compare, particularly when you're starting a new position, right? So when you just start a new job, I guess that's quite a natural thing. You want to see how you're doing. And to do that, you may look sideways and compare to others. But it can lead to imposter feelings.

8:40If you look sideways and feel as though you're not doing as good a job as the people around about you, you might start to doubt your abilities and subsequently where you belong. And this could be a really challenging thing. I certainly can relate to that one for sure. Are there other things that you've come across in your interviews? Another thing that came up quite a bit in the interviews I used to run was the externalization of successes and equally the flip side of this, which is the internalization of failures. People with high levels of imposter phenomenon tend to feel like successes are maybe not

9:15due to their own ability, but rather some sort of third factor. And I saw this a lot when interviewing students with imposter phenomenon. When they did well on their exams, they would attribute it to things like luck. So they'd say things like, oh, well, I did well on the exam, but I was just lucky that the questions I revised came up on the day. Similarly, people with high levels of imposter phenomenon might also internalize their failures, blaming themselves for things that didn't go well, even though their involvement might be minimal. I was even speaking to a person informally about imposter phenomenon recently.

9:49He blamed himself for a failure at work, even though there were about five or six people who were more involved in the project than himself. But that kind of internalization and almost blaming yourself for failures is something that we see quite a bit. And then I guess the final thing that I've noticed that comes up quite a lot is the relationship with perfectionism. There's a lot of research that suggests that perfectionism and imposter phenomenon are related to each other. People who are more of a perfectionist tend to also have higher levels of imposter phenomenon. Have you been able to collect evidence for why this relationship exists?

10:23My current research seems to suggest that this has a lot to do with self-critical aspects of both imposter phenomenon and perfectionism. I do need to collect more data on this though, so they're not finalized results at this point, but initial results suggest that it is less the need to be perfect that relates to imposter phenomenon, but rather the idea of not wanting to fail that seems to be more related to it. So this is something that we're going to explore in more detail. But certainly perfectionists seem to also report higher levels of imposter phenomenon.

10:55And we should note that most of the results for this are correlational, so not necessarily the case that perfectionism causes imposter phenomenon, but there seems to be a relationship between these two things. I find it interesting, Ewan, that the potential relationship that you mentioned between imposter phenomenon and perfectionism is in part potentially due to people not wanting to fail. And I spoke about failure in a very different way in episode 25 about psychological safety, which actually promotes openly revealing failures as it's been found to enable people and teams

11:31to review what's not working and therefore create future solutions. So perhaps it does depend on this kind of mindset and it's quite different for imposter syndrome. So I suppose that really leads me to ask about, you know, the people. Is the experience different for different people? Yes, it does seem to vary depending on things like context. So I'd mentioned initially that it was something that affected successful women, but we now know

12:01that that's not always the case. On average, most people in the general public tend to experience it quite similar. So there's between men and women, they seem to experience it to a similar degree in most studies of the general public. However, I say this depends on context. So I worked previously with a physics department and in that case, we saw that women experienced imposter phenomenon to a much greater degree than men. On average, that is. This is likely due to the context of women being underrepresented in the field, perhaps.

12:35And this was something that was really difficult for the women that were experiencing it, partly because they sometimes felt like they were experiencing it because of their gender as well, which was a really difficult thing for them to experience. I should note that it wasn't that men didn't experience it, but women were experiencing it to a greater degree in this case. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.

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12:58I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants.

13:30The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait. Have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight, and then you just don't because you don't have what you need? Because same. But recently, I've been trying to be more of a yes person, and honestly, Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night, I randomly decided I was going to host a last-minute girls' night. No planning, no groceries, nothing. And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day.

14:02Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need, but emotionally I did. And suddenly, it went from maybe next time to yes, tonight. That's what I love. Prime's same-day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen. Same-day delivery, it's on Prime. Available in select areas, terms apply. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

Context Matters

14:37So context matters, and it similarly matters. Another example I have was when working with medical students. And in this case, rather than gender, it was age that was the key factor. With younger people who are starting out in their careers as medical students or resident doctors, worrying about not having the same experience compared to those who had much more medical training than they did. What was interesting was when I also looked at imposter phenomenon in some health students.

15:09And what we found there was that people who had maybe taken some time out from education were really worried about coming back into the higher education sector and were worried about not being able to keep up in terms of the learning. And so the experience in this sort of medical school context was really interesting because we had people worrying about not having enough experience and people with lots of experience worrying about not being able to keep up with those who were just straight out of higher education or maybe their undergraduate degrees.

15:40So this was a really interesting sort of situation that we had. But it just shows how the context really matters and it depends on person to person, place to place, institution to institution. So when trying to address things like imposter phenomenon, I do think it's important if you are an institution that is struggling with this to really take a look at what the situation is in your specific institution. What is some of the reasons that imposter phenomenon is appearing in your institution and what can

16:14be done? It seems to really vary by context. So taking context into account, then a person that's experiencing imposter phenomenon in one scenario might not be feeling it in another. And if that's the case, then do these feelings of imposter phenomenon ever go away, Ewan? Unfortunately, it seems to come and go throughout people's lives. When experiencing new challenges, it can reappear. And as mentioned before, this can be for very successful people.

16:45One of the things that got me into research in this area in the first place was an account given by Dame Jocelyn Bell Burnell, an astrophysicist who spoke quite openly about her experience of imposter phenomenon. For those that are not so familiar, she was part of a team who discovered pulsars, which is the type of star for which a number of that team would gain Nobel Prizes. And I was not so familiar with imposter phenomenon at the time, but I was really interested that someone who was so incredibly successful and clever was also able to experience this imposter

17:19phenomenon to such a great degree. It did just kind of go to show that anybody can experience it. And it does kind of come and go throughout people's lives. This is something that I've heard a lot from other professors and other very successful people and high up in businesses and so on, that actually it's something that still can affect them from time to time. And again, it can be those periods of transition that really matter. As you mentioned, it can affect anybody, even those that are seen to be so successful. What are your hopes for your research on this topic, Ewan?

17:53My hope is that our research is able to raise awareness of imposter phenomenon and kind of help people and provide people with the tools to identify and deal with the issues of imposter phenomenon when they arise. Our hope is that, yes, the feelings might come and go, but if you're able to deal with the feelings when they arise, then maybe we could prevent some of the discomfort that is associated with imposter phenomenon. You've really provided us with some very evidence-based and very fascinating information

18:25about imposter phenomenon. And I'd like to sort of finish this interview with you, Ewan, by asking you from what you've learned over the years, what are some of the things you would suggest to a person struggling with imposter phenomenon to be able to manage it? Yes, there are a few things that people can do. One thing that some find useful is to kind of take a step back from the situation and remind yourself of your successes. To think about how you got to where you are just now and the things you've achieved along

18:57the way. I think we've got a real tendency to look forward all the time in the workplace. You know, you've got one deadline that you've met and then you start thinking about the next one and the next one. We don't ever really take a sort of step back. It's a kind of reflect in a way. And I think reflection is a really useful thing in this instance. It can be good to kind of try and break that cycle of always looking forward, take a step back and go, what got me to this place? How did I reach this point?

19:28And what are the achievements that I've had along the way? We don't do this often enough, probably. Stop and pat ourselves on the back. And I think that's something that can really help with people who are experiencing high levels of imposter phenomenon. Okay, some positive self-reflection. Anything else? Another thing that can be quite helpful when people are sort of feeling imposter phenomenon, particularly if they're feeling overwhelmed, is chunking tasks. So sometimes this sort of imposter phenomenon, self-doubt can arise because people are given

20:00a task that's large and quite overwhelming. And this is particularly the case with the students I speak to in higher education settings and students I've interviewed that maybe have had like a big report to and didn't know where to start. I think really breaking up these tasks into smaller, more manageable chunks can help people achieve them without necessarily feeling quite so overwhelmed. Is that something you put into practice yourself? It's something I try a lot with my students. When they say they can't do an assignment, maybe because it initially seems really, really

20:33big and really daunting, it can be useful to go through it with them and split it up into sections. Then when you ask them after you split that up into sections, what bit they can't do, they often realize that actually they can do a lot more of it than they maybe expected they could. And it can give them a bit of confidence, you know, so being able to say, right, okay, well, now that we've split this up into several parts, can you identify the bits that you can do and can't do? And it gives them confidence and also pinpoints the bits of the assignment they actually need to work on. You know, it can be quite a challenge.

21:05I think this applies not just to students, but across all sectors of, you know, the workplace and so on, it can be useful to break things up and focus on things that you're good at and things you're not good at. So again, there is an element of reflective sort of nature to this. I think that's great advice, Ewan, because we also know that if we break it up into chunks, the task, as we complete each of those chunks, we can sort of tick it off and that will give us a little bit of a dopamine burst. So again, it's more likely to reward us and keep us going.

21:35You know, is there one last thing maybe you would recommend? Another thing that I think is really key, I think is probably the key thing that I would suggest to people that are experiencing imposter phenomenon is talking about your experiences of it with other people. It was clear in many of the interviews that I have run with those experiencing high levels of imposter phenomenon that there are a lot of silent sufferers out there. So people would tell me that they don't open up about it because it's something that just

22:08affects them. So it's only them that experiences this. And in psychology, we've got a quite harsh sounding term. We quite often use quite harsh sounding terms known as pluralistic ignorance, which sounds horrible, but effectively means it's the idea that people may tend to think that the feelings or experience it is by many are only sort of pertaining to themselves. So this idea that it's only me that gets this and other people don't experience this.

22:39And this was a massive barrier to some of the people I spoke to. They felt like people wouldn't understand them. So they didn't have any social support with it. They didn't open up about their experiences of imposter phenomenon to others or say, actually, I'm struggling a bit with this to anybody because they were worried that others just wouldn't get them. Whereas in reality, I think most would understand this feeling of imposter phenomenon feeling like you're underqualified and aren't capable of the position that you're in. So this is something that was a real issue.

23:10And then part of what we're trying to do is kind of highlight to people that this is actually a really common experience. A recent study I was reading, I think, put the number of people in the sample who'd experienced imposter phenomenon at 82%. So this varies a lot, I should say, in studies and the number that report it, partly because quite often we use self-report measures of imposter phenomenon, which is a challenge as of in itself, right? Because people who maybe are experiencing imposter phenomenon don't necessarily always see it

23:41as imposter phenomenon. They might see it as genuinely not being very good if they've managed to convince themselves that they're genuinely not capable. So that maybe better cognitive awareness of your ability might not necessarily be there. In general, as we say, self-report measures have issues in psychology, especially with something like this, where maybe people will not be willing to report it or see some social desirability aspects of it. So maybe you're a bit embarrassed to report that.

24:12In general, it seems to be a very common experience. I think most people can resonate with it. So opening up and talking about it with one another is something I think is really key. Some of the work that we've done, looking at some of the predictors and things that relate to imposter phenomenon, do suggest that aspects like a sense of belonging and so on relate quite heavily. So having this conversation and making sure you feel like you, I guess, belong is quite

24:45important. So having that social support is key. And I think more people will actually understand your experience than you think if you do open up about it. So it sounds, Ewan, that we need to be a bit more open with our feelings and worries

Managing Imposter Phenomenon

24:59about not being perfect, not succeeding necessarily. Maybe some people call that failure. And that might reduce this kind of imposter phenomenon if there is this relationship with those different factors. If anything, it comes back to what I said earlier about that psychological safety approach of seeing failures as an opportunity to make changes. So I think what you've really explained so well to us today is just how important it is to

25:30be able to be more aware, not just of your own thoughts, but also that you're part of probably a collective group of people who do feel imposter phenomenon is a regular part of life. What are you hoping to do with this wonderful research that you've talked only briefly about today? Because I know there's so much more that you're doing. What is the main aim for you and your colleagues? A final thing that we're kind of keen to discuss and sort of create is a toolkit for institutions

26:06that are perhaps aware that employees are experiencing imposter phenomenon. This is my key goal over the next few years. So watch the space with this. We're currently in the process of quite rigorously testing a workshop for imposter phenomenon that encourages people to have the conversation around the experiences of imposter phenomenon and try to foster that social support. I was just saying that sometimes lacking. So this workshop would likely be part of a larger toolkit, which will hopefully be freely

26:37available to institutions. And we contain lots of things that could try and help those with imposter feelings. So I guess with this, there's no one size fits all solution. And that's sometimes what a lot of people ask me is, what is the solution to imposter phenomenon? Unfortunately, I don't have that. I wish I did. It would be brilliant. But unfortunately, I don't have that. So I think having lots of different things that may work for different people is a useful thing to do. We're looking to collate that and create some toolkit that people can go online and hopefully use

27:08to help when they start to experience these feelings in the future. The toolkit and the workshop sound like such a great way to apply what you've learned from your research, Ewan, and to actively support people who might be experiencing imposter phenomenon. So I wish you all the best with that. I'm really looking forward to seeing it progress. And also, I'd like to say a big thank you for being our guest today and providing such comprehensive and really interesting information about what imposter phenomenon is.

27:40And I particularly appreciated some of your top tips on ways to kind of reduce those negative consequences of it on your productivity and well-being. So thank you, Ewan. Thanks so much for having me, Janine.

27:55So now that we've learned so much from talking with Ewan, I'd like to finish today's episode

Brain Regions Associated with Imposter Phenomenon

28:01by discussing what parts of the brain are thought to be associated with experiencing imposter phenomenon. Just before I do that, though, Ewan has very kindly provided a little bit more information about the toolkit and the workshop, should you be interested to know more. And I'm going to put that as a separate MP3 on the Everyday Neuro website in the podcast section. So go and check out the show notes of this episode and you'll find that additional information.

28:32Again, thank you, Ewan. So yeah, what parts of the brain are linked to imposter phenomenon? As you may have gathered, there's a lot of processes that are co-occurring. And for that reason, we see several brain regions light up or activate, especially those involved in self-evaluation, social comparison and also threat detection. So, of course, we're not surprised to find that the prefrontal cortex, which helps us reflect and plan, can become sort of overactive in perfectionists and people that think a lot.

29:08Meanwhile, because of the fear response, the amygdala is seen to be active because, of course, it's our brain's fear centre. It's our threat detector. You may be really interested to find out that one of the sort of theories behind the amygdala being so active during imposter phenomenon is that people who live with this may actually interpret praise or recognition as a threat to their self-concept. So in other words, your brain might be wired to protect your identity.

29:40And in people that are living with imposter phenomenon, even if that identity is, I'm not good enough, then a nice comment, a praising comment might be seen as a negative or a threat to identity.

29:58Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stash terms.

30:30Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait. Have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight and then you just don't because you don't have what you need? Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person and honestly Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last minute girls night. No planning, no groceries, nothing.

31:00And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need, but emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes, tonight. That's what I love. Prime's same day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real, the only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Available in select areas, terms apply. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic, go to amazon.com slash

31:33Prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

31:39Neuroscientist Dr. Valerie Young, who has spent decades studying imposter phenomenon, describes five types of imposters. So the first is the perfectionist, which Ewan talked about, you know, a person that sets impossibly high standards and then feels potentially shame when they fall short or maybe feels failure. There's the expert, they feel they must know everything before acting. There's the soloist, who believes asking for help proves incompetence. And also the natural genius, who expects success to come easily and feels crushed by, you know,

32:14the struggle to work something out. And then finally, Dr. Young says there is the superhuman. They are the type of person who measures worth by how much they can juggle. So all of this like multitasking is seen as a real sort of accolade. So I don't know if you identify with any of those traits, but each type reflects a different cognitive distortion and the way the brain misinterprets reality. And when we put those together, then it could be potentially quite a dangerous cocktail.

32:46But the brain is a fabulous thing. And we know that with strategies and training, then it can rewire, it can learn new skills. And let's hope the work that Ewan is doing right now to create a toolkit and to run workshops where these kind of things can be talked about and social connection can be enhanced and failure isn't seen as a negative consequence. In fact, it can be acted on, which is very much in the sort of outlook of psychological safety.

33:19So that's where I'll end today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed the topic. I know I have, and I've certainly learned a lot from our wonderful guest, Dr. Ewan Bottomley. I thank him again. And on that note, I'd like to thank you for listening. And I hope you'll join me again for another episode of the Everyday Neuro Podcast. In the meantime, continue to look after that brilliant brain of yours. Until then, take care.

34:02Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 per month. See terms at Venmo.me slash stashterms.

34:34Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Hey, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. Okay, wait. Have you ever had one of those moments where you're like, I should be doing something fun tonight? And then you just don't because you don't have what you need? Because same. But recently I've been trying to be more of a yes person. And honestly, Amazon Prime has been enabling that energy. Like the other night I randomly decided I was going to host a last minute girls night. No planning, no groceries, nothing.

35:04And instead of spiraling, I just ordered everything I needed and got it that day. Snacks, drinks, even like random hosting things I absolutely didn't need. But emotionally I did. And suddenly it went from maybe next time to yes, tonight. That's what I love. Prime's same day delivery makes it so you can say yes before the moment slips away. Because let's be real. The only thing worse than a bad plan is a plan you never make happen. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas. So if you're trying to be more spontaneous or just less chaotic,

35:36go to Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

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