Everyday Neuro 023 Part 2: Social Connection - The Impact of Digital Media on Our Thinking and Wellbeing

Introduction to Episode

0:00Hello, and welcome to the Everyday Neuro podcast series. I'm your host, Dr. Janine Cooper, and I'm aiming to provide you with the knowledge and inspiration to understand the fascinating world of the human brain. So welcome to part two of episode 23, where we're looking at social connection and isolation in an ever evolving digital world. And we're going to be joined

0:35shortly by Dr. Milovan Savage, who will be really helping us to explore interpersonal communication and social connection in much more detail. So I'm really looking forward to hearing from Milovan about the relationship between digital media and loneliness, and his evidence based research about empowering younger people to make informed choices about social media use.

Recap of Part One

1:01But before we talk to Milovan, I just want to briefly sort of recap on where we left off in part one. And it's really this idea that, you know, in an ideal world, so to speak, while virtual interactions have many advantages, obviously, it's best if it's balanced with in-person connections. After all, that is what remains essential for overall well being. And this is something that's been promoted, especially for younger people who are now using screens not only

1:31at school, but obviously outside of school as well. So and you know, in one essence, we're telling kids to use their screens for education, but then suddenly expecting them to not want to use it outside of that. So again, it's this kind of balance. And maybe, as we'll hear from Milovan, a lot about what we teach our kids and their understanding of the pros and cons of this. Now, in 2015, I was asked to write

Digital Media Research

1:55a piece about using digital media. At this time, it was very much about screens at school. And one of the things that I discovered from looking at the research at that time was that interaction is key to healthy use of screens and obviously limiting the time that children are on that, but making sure that when they are on them that there is interaction. It's not just a feed from the show that they're watching or the game that they're playing. But in fact, as long as they're interacting and they're cognitively getting involved, then this can actually be a very positive thing. And if you

2:29want to read that article, then you'll find it in the show notes and on the web pages of everydayneuro.com. But I wanted to sort of also tell you about a recent article by Pascal Schneiders and Alicia Gilbert that sort of reports that companies such as Facebook, TikTok and Instagram knowingly use and manipulate design features and algorithms to keep users hooked. And children and young people are particularly susceptible to this. So, you know, staring at the screen for countless

3:03hours. Young people are becoming addicted. And as a result, their mental health and well-being is being affected with some becoming depressed and, you know, plagued by anxiety, especially when they're used to getting that little bit of a dopamine rush when they've had something exciting happen during that screen time. You know, how do they find that outside of screen time? And that's what maybe we should be focusing on. What other interests outside of screen time do young people have and really promoting that positivity. One of the things that Pascal Schneiders and Alicia Gilbert say is that,

3:41you know, losing control over their own behaviour, young people really start to neglect those other activities. And in response to this, obviously, there is the concern that, you know, we need to do something quite drastic. But just recently, politicians from several countries are discussing the need to intervene and limit its use, with some even talking about banning use by younger people, with France taking a big step of preventing children under 15 from using social media platforms without parental

4:13consent. And France has a mandated age verification for users under 15. Now, whilst this is not a complete ban, what has happened in France is that it's started to serve as an example for other politicians in other countries. It's also sort of started a debate in the UK, which is, you know, politicians now considering curbing social media for kids. In the Netherlands, there's been announcements that there are plans to

4:43ban smartphones from schools, indirectly limiting social media access for children. And, you know, obviously, all of this is to try and limit the impact that digital media has on mental well-being. So, you know, making sure that our kids have a healthy balance. And that's something that I think now is really going to be of great interest to us about watching how this develops. And it's thanks to

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Interview with Dr Milovan Savage

6:55So we're now joined by Dr. Miliband Savage, who is very kindly going to talk to us today about his research that looks into the impact and uses of digital and social media on interpersonal communication and social connection. And in my opinion, is really a leading voice on this topic. And it's taken me some time to twist his arm to be able to do this interview. So hi, Miliband, and thanks for joining us.

7:28Hi, Janine. Thanks for your introduction and kind words and for twisting my arm quite literally. So it's great to be actually here finally and chat to you about this topic. Miliband, we hear a lot about the loneliness pandemic. Could you share with us what your thoughts are on how hearing this shapes our understanding of social connection? The term loneliness pandemic is indeed getting a lot of attention lately. But to be completely honest,

7:58I'm not a big fan of this phrase. While loneliness is definitely important to talk about, calling it pandemic can be very misleading. You see, like loneliness is actually an emotion. Think of it as an internal signal. So similar to hunger. When we are hungry, our body tells us to eat. And when we are lonely, it's telling us we need to connect. So what concerns me about the pandemic label is that it makes loneliness sound like just a health issue or an individual problem.

8:34But it's much bigger than that, right? So it's connected to how our society works, things like economic and social inequality, and how our communities are organized or even built.

8:50Loneliness doesn't necessarily mean someone is actually alone or isolated. You can feel lonely in a crowd, or you can have a lot of friends but still feel disconnected. It's been part of human experience forever in a way. So it's not something new as some people want to present it. So it's not like a new virus that's suddenly spreading. Yes, definitely feeling lonely for an extended period of time can affect both our mental and physical health, but it doesn't make it a disease. So in our

9:26research team, in my research group, we prefer to focus on social connection instead. We look at how people feel about their relationships, their support system, and their sense of belonging. We are interested to understand both those individual experiences, but also that bigger picture that I was talking about. So like what in the society helps or prevent people from connecting. So rather than treating loneliness like a disease that we need to cure, we think it's more helpful to

9:56look at how we can help people and communities as well, build those strong connections between them. There's such an interesting way of looking at things from a much more holistic viewpoint, which I really love, Milovan. So thanks so much for explaining that to me and also to our listeners who probably, you know, we hear these things in the media and then, you know, we don't necessarily fully understand them. So thanks for explaining that so clearly. And my next question is, at the moment, there's a lot of discussion around digital media and

10:29loneliness. And I'd love to hear how you see that relationship between the two. That's really important point, Janine. So I'm actually quite concerned about this common narrative that digital media is the main cause of loneliness. I think it's too simplistic and often feels like moral panic about the new technology, especially when it comes to conversations about young people. The reality is much more complex. So digital media and face-to-face interactions are opposed.

11:01They actually work together. You will know this yourself, probably like me and many other people. When life takes us across the world to another continent, digital media really becomes incredibly valuable for keeping up with friends and family. So without it, maintaining those distant connections would be really, really difficult or expensive.

11:29Here is something interesting about the research. So often studies find a link between social media use and loneliness. But I think we need to be very careful about jumping to conclusions. It's like chicken and egg almost. So are people lonely because they use social media or are they using social media because they are lonely? Sometimes people who are already feeling lonely or maybe even depressed might turn to social media as a way to reach out or just to fill in that big void in their social connection system. So we should really carefully look into this before making such big

12:07conclusions. Also, I think that we also need to ask not just what effects digital media has, but who it affects and how. Unfortunately, there is often a big gap in who benefits from our increasingly digital society. It's usually the most vulnerable people who might get left behind or pushed even further to the margins. So instead of taking that kind of like a one-size-fits-all approach, we need to understand for whom and in what circumstances digital media helps or hurts. So for most people today, their social

12:42connections are a mix of both online and face-to-face interactions. That's, you know, that's just the reality of how we live nowadays.

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14:25I think that really gives me comfort to know that, you know, a lot of the time we are needing to use different ways to communicate to connect. So absolutely, I totally understand that, you know, if that's also what the research is telling us as well, then there is evidence that, you know, digital media isn't all that bad. But I think probably what I've heard recently and what our listeners have as well is this whole idea about how it's affecting our younger people. And that's where I

14:57know you'll be able to really give us some inside or certainly insightful information from your research. And, you know, with the current talks of social media bans for young people, Milavan, what are your thoughts on this issue? Hmm. Yes. Well, unfortunately, these aren't just talks anymore. So despite experts advising against it, the Australian government has actually introduced social media bans for young people under 16 years old. I think it was only like two or three weeks ago. And I think it's also like the

15:34first legislation of its kind in the world. So while it's been adopted, it won't be implemented for another year or so. I don't think it's a dumb deal, though. So there is still big questions about how such a ban would even work, like how would they even verify someone's age, how they enforce the legislation like that. And let's be honest, young people are pretty quick to find ways around those restrictions. So I think there is like a lot of roadblocks.

16:11to implement something like this. But putting the technical issues aside, while I understand that the concerns driving these decisions and they might be well intended, I think they are misguided. So I'm generally against black and bans in about anything, because they often miss the real issues and they actually might accidentally cut off valuable connection opportunities for many young people. So instead of just banning access, I believe we'd be better off focusing

16:47on education. So teaching young people how to use these platforms safely and responsibly. This way, we would be empowering them to make smart choices rather than just blocking them out and postponing their interaction with social media. If the government really wants to protect young people, they might be better off focusing on regulating social media companies themselves. So making sure that they are properly moderating the content online and putting proper safeguards

17:22in place. Otherwise, we are just kind of pushing the problem down the road rather than solving it. It's so interesting to hear your thoughts on this, especially with the evidence that you have from your team's research. You know, this idea that if we ban something, it will just, you know, it will go away far from it. And as you say, you know, young people are resilient, they will find a way. And I think, you know, certainly that idea that you've said about education, you know, making sure that people understand the pros, the cons. Hopefully, this episode is helping

17:56listeners to make their own decisions about this. So, yeah, I mean, thank you for such an insightful

Social Media Bans for Young People

18:03view on that. And what do you think are some of the potential impacts of these bans on, you know, the social connections that young people are able to make? That's a really good question, Jenny. When we think about these bans, we really need to consider how they might affect different young people in different ways. So it's not universal. For many young people, social media isn't just about entertainment and, you know, having fun and doing silly stuff online. For many young people, it's a vital tool for staying connected.

18:40So think about young people who might be dealing with chronic illnesses and can't always meet friends in person. Or, for example, LGBTQ plus teens who find supportive communities online that often they cannot find in their like physical or local area. Or consider young people in remote areas, who use social media to stay in touch with friends and family who moved away or just live in other parts. So there are many examples of people who would be hurt and suffer if those choices,

19:17those options to connect would be just taken away from them. So when we talk about banning social media, I think we need to think carefully about who might be most affected. We might accidentally end up isolating the very people who are already at risk of feeling lonely or excluded. And that's where kind of the danger is of blanket bans. It's also particularly concerning because we know that young

19:47people are reporting feeling more lonely. So adding restrictions that could cut them off from their support networks might make things worse and not better, which probably was the intention behind all of this. So I think that, I mean, I advocate for finding solutions that would protect young people while still allowing them to maintain those important connections. I really like the fact you're saying, you know, we've got to be careful because, you know, young people are vulnerable and who knows what the outcome of those bans will be. You know, the consequences are yet to

20:22show themselves. But following up on that point that you made earlier about protecting young people's connections. And we're now seeing major disruptions in this space from companies like Twitter becoming X to metas changing of content moderation policies. And even, you know, like the more recent drama around TikTok bans in the United States, you know, pushing users towards other platforms. I wondered if you would be comfortable sharing how you see these platform changes affecting the ability to maintain these

20:54important social connections that we're all trying to make. You know, it's complicated because these platforms are ultimately businesses and they're focused on their profits primarily. So they want us to keep us engaged so that they can sell more ads. They collect our data that again, they can sell. And sometimes, or maybe even often, their decisions about content and new features don't really prioritize our well-being or connections. But here is the thing,

21:26as we said before, for many people, and especially those who might be isolated or have limited options for in-person connection, these platforms remain vital tools for staying connected with people around them and their communities. One thing that I observed, especially in my research, is that people are incredibly adaptable. So they always find ways to make these platforms works for their needs, particularly young people who are really creative in how they use these spaces. When one platform

22:02becomes problematic, they find alternatives or create their own ways of using features to maintain their connections. So rather than stepping back from these platforms, I think it's actually becoming more important to stay engaged and try at least to protect these spaces for connection. After all, these platforms, they only work because of us, the users. Without us, they simply wouldn't exist. So with digital skills and education, what we mentioned earlier, we have more power than we might think to shape how these

22:38spaces function. It's about being strategic and intentional in how we use them. So yes, definitely, there are challenges with how platforms operate. But that's exactly why we need to develop better practices for using them to maintain our social connections. It's not always easy. But given how important these spaces are for our connections, it's worth putting in the effort to make them work for us. The key is focusing on how we can use these tools effectively for connection, rather than getting

23:11caught up in all the platform drama. It's about being smart about how we navigate these spaces while keeping our focus on what really matters. And that's maintaining those important social connections that we all have. Oh, let's hope so. I mean, let's hope there is this kind of, you know, wise balance, which is really leading me to my last question. I have to say thank you so much, Milovan, because I'm, you know, I'm learning so much from what you're talking about. But if we could finish with the question is, as we navigate

Balancing Digital and In-Person Connections

23:43these discussions, what advice would you give our listeners about balancing digital and in-person connections? You know, these days, our social connection is really about that blend of both in-person and digital interactions. So through messaging apps, social media, and all the other platforms out there. So they're so intertwined that it's really not about choosing one or the other anymore. It's that kind of mix. I recently heard Jeffrey Hall from the University of Southern

24:18California, making an interesting comparison that I'd like to use and extend. So he compared digital media to a healthy diet. And I think this is really helpful way to think about it. So I'll use his metaphor and try to extend it a bit. So I think when we are talking about the digital in the context of social connection, think about it as a chocolate cake. So it's not the healthiest if that's all you eat, right? But as part of a balanced diet, along with all the other nutritious foods, it can bring

24:55you joy and pleasure, right? Who doesn't enjoy a good chocolate cake? But if it's just a part of a balanced diet, it's not really causing a harm. So I think social media and digital connections are similar to that. They can be valuable part of our social connection diet when used alongside other form of interaction. So rather than seeing digital connections as something negative that we need to limit, maybe we can think about how to use them to complement our face-to-face relationships. So they

25:30are especially valuable when in-person meetings and interactions are not possible. But just like with food, it's all about the balance, right? So making sure you also make time for those slower face-to-face conversations that help build deeper connections. So I hope this is like practical enough, but it's really about using and leveraging the advantage of digital communication while also finding time and

26:04prioritizing whenever possible those in-person connections with our family and our friends and acquaintances and so on. I think you've just done a rather miraculous thing there, Milavan. You've managed to put chocolate cake into this podcast episode. So I thank you for that. But actually, what a great way to finish this interview with you to really just see it's all about balance and also just keeping our minds open to be learning about the ever-changing arena, which is digital media and digital connections. So I'd like to say a big

26:41thank you for joining us today. And it's been a pleasure. And I'm also delighted that you were able to give us so much information about what makes a healthy balance. Thank you, Milavan. Thanks, Janine. It was lovely talking to you and I hope your listeners will enjoy it too. Talk soon. Bye.

27:02So that was Dr. Milavan Savic. What a pleasure it was to talk to him about his research and the current understanding that we have about this kind of balance between digital media use and obviously other forms of social connection. If you're interested, Milavan's got some great research and he's also going to be publishing a book on this topic. So I will be putting information that may be of huge value to you on the show notes on the Everyday Neuro website. So that's everydayneuro.com. And please check out

27:37episode 23, part two, if you'd like more info. Well, I hope you'll agree that social connection has been quite a large topic and we've covered quite a lot of things in the last two parts of this episode. Again, I'd like to say a big thank you to our guest, Dr. Milavan Savic for joining us and giving us really the most comprehensive understanding of social connection and loneliness and how we can be considering social media and digital media use

28:10as a potential positive when we balance it in a healthy way, just like you would with chocolate cake. So please join me again next time for another episode of the Everyday Neuro podcast. And in the meantime, as ever, please look after that wonderful brain of yours. Until next time, take care.

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