DU062 - Starting a branding agency during COVID - Andy Lester Interview

Introduction to Changes

0:00Hello everyone, me and Carla thought we'd let you know about a few changes that are going to be happening to the podcast. So as you might have noticed, we haven't been able to get them out as regularly as we would have liked or as we would have promised. That's just because we haven't got enough time to do it really. We're fat and lazy. Yeah, we're too old, that's the thing. The problem is that we're getting too old. We're very old. We're three years younger when we started, right? Yeah, and I didn't have a baby. Yeah, this is going to be difficult, but it's still important

0:39for us to release interesting content, hopefully. So we just want to wrap it around seasons now and we're just going to have a main topic, right? And then find speakers or maybe just us, we'll just rumble a bit about different topics to make a fit within the season. Yeah, I think it's going to mean that the content is a lot more focused. So whereas before we were kind of just releasing things whenever took our fancy, now we're going to have a very

1:13kind of specific, I suppose, design problem or area that we want to dig into a lot deeper. So it's going to mean we're going to be able to go into topic in a lot more detail and with a lot more variety of opinion as well than in the current format. Yeah, and we're going to find experts and people who are already, you know, solving those problems or working on those areas. So yeah, just if you have any ideas or any topics or anything that you want to hear from us, please let us know. You know where to find us.

1:45Yeah, and in other news, the $9 intro that you love so much is going to be retired as well in favour of some fucking weird trip-hop shit. It's not. It's cool. Hip-hop is much better. Well, you've been rinsing me about that one for three years. So now that you essentially chose it, I'm going to rinse you about it. Oh, finally, finally, I get to choose it. All right. Okay, just rip me about it.

2:15Cool. So yeah, that's all we wanted to say. So enjoy the following episode. And we look forward to seeing you in the new season-based format. I'm Chris Mears. And I'm Carla Lindarte. We're two UX designers. And we hate jargon. So we're here to help you untangle the world of design. Cut through the crap and talk about what really matters. Yes, solving people's problems. Welcome to Design Untangled.

Introduction to Guest

2:43Hello, everyone. Welcome to Design Untangled. With me, Carla Lindarte and Chris Mears, my lovely friend, Chris. Hi, Chris. How are you? Yeah, good. You? I'm very good. And today we're very excited to have Andy Lester, who is a brand designer. It's a different type of designer than we've had in the past. So welcome, Andy.

3:13Hi, guys. Thanks for having me on the show.

Andy's Background

3:16No, great to have you here. So Andy, tell us a little bit about yourself. So rather than me introducing you, just tell us what you do, what you've been doing recently. Yeah, so I'm a brand identity designer, and I've been in the industry for just over 10 years. I've recently set up my own studio called Childish Design. So I'm the founder or creative director. I sort of wear a few hats now. And I also teach design students as well at various institutions. I suppose we'll go into that a little bit later.

3:55Great. That sounds great. So what is a brand identity designer? So a lot of the reason why I'm asking you this question is because, you know, we have most of our audience are UX designers, visual designers, you know, in that kind of space. So what is the type of design or how is this type of design different? Yeah, so I think there's a bit of confusing language within our own industry, actually.

4:24A lot of people say brand designer.

4:28And I think it's very important to say that we create brand identities. We don't create brands. You know, McDonald's is a brand and a designer didn't create that. It's it's the way I see brands and the way that designers interact with them is the same as you can see a person, you know, so you have you have a person and that person knows what they think, what drives them, what emotions they feel and what their aims and ambitions are. And then they try and communicate that with the outside world.

5:00And they do that through what they say, how they say it, what they wear, how they style their hair, et cetera. And I suppose you could say that a brand designer does the same thing for companies. It helps them understand who they are, what are their drivers, who's their audience, but at the same time gives them a voice, a tone of voice to talk in. It allows you to have a set of clothes. So whether that's a visual identity and yes, that will include things like a logo, but things like, you know, choosing typefaces, choosing color palettes are equally as important.

5:37So I think from my point of view, the main difference is that you have to be a lot more strategic. You have to, I think some form of ability to be able to write as well is, is quite important for a brand designer. And it's for me personally, it's, it's not really about just making things look good. It's about making sure that you're positioning something in the right way that meets the consumers wants and desires really. So, I mean, traditionally in like what our backgrounds, like designing digital products and stuff, a lot of the stuff you mentioned might be split into different kind of people doing it.

6:18Like for example, copywriting and then the visual designer might work on the typography and stuff. So are you essentially taking on all those roles as that brand designer or are you still working with those other kind of specialists, depending like what the angle is? Yeah, I think you still definitely work with those specialists, but I think just from the nature of what you're actually creating, you sort of have to be making these decisions in tandem with one another. You can't really say, right, here's, here's the brand, but now we need some copy because they're so interlinked at that, that conceptual positioning stage that I think that you need to be able to,

7:01as a brand designer or brand identity designer to, to be able to think in both words and visuals at the same time. And yes, a copywriter may have to rewrite what you write, but as long as the general intent or the thing that you're trying to communicate is there, I'd say that there is a sort of a slightly more jack of all trades nature to it, if that makes any sense.

Starting an Agency

7:25So if we can talk a bit about the whole starting an agency thing that you spoke about. So, I mean, that must have been quite an interesting move during this whole pandemic thing and yeah, potentially quite risky. Like, why the hell did you do that? Yeah, it's a good question. It was definitely something that was already on the radar. I've always taken on freelance clients.

7:56And so I suppose it was more of an evolution than something that felt completely afresh. You know, I've basically rebranded how I present myself and brought in a few other people to help me rather than sort of starting something completely new. So I've already had a few clients and after teaching, it struck me how hard it is for juniors to get experience. So I thought what a great opportunity to take on a few more projects, bring in a few junior designers and just offer a slightly broader offering as a company rather than as an individual.

8:37That sounds really interesting. Interesting. Well, obviously, apart from being in the middle of a pandemic, what's the hardest thing you've had to do so far as starting your agency? I think it's the juggling of all of the different tasks. So, you know, when I was taking on clients as an individual, I'd usually leave myself lots of time. I wouldn't really have other things I had to do at the same time. But having to juggle things like finance, you know, creatively direct people, you know, design things myself, hiring people, you know, trying to attract new business.

9:17It's really quite, you have to be quite strict with times and schedules to sort of make that work, I think. So how has business been during COVID? Obviously, we heard a lot of kind of news about companies going bust and, you know, all the rest of it. Has there still been a big appetite that you've seen for new projects like this? Like, are there still companies essentially looking to focus on their brands and put that out to people?

9:48Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I hope that other people have had fortunate experiences during the pandemic, because obviously it's been a terrible time for a lot of people. But we've been fine. You know, we've picked up three really good clients.

10:08We've positioned ourselves as an agency for startups, essentially. So ethical startups. And I think that due to the nature of how startups are financially funded, they're usually backed by an investor. And, you know, the investor is not looking to reap any rewards on that for a good sort of five years, maybe. You know, it's not as impacted because, you know, if they've already had the investment, they're going to go through with that rebrand or they're going to go through with that new website or that new packaging design.

10:43And so it's honestly doesn't seem to have affected the startup sector quite so much. That is really good. I mean, it's completely the opposite of what people would think, right? Because they're starting a new business in these conditions. But it's interesting and good to know that people are still, you know, working in those ventures. You mentioned that your agency focuses on like sustainability and, you know, health, etc. How do you keep your team and yourself focused on that sustainable sustainability focus?

11:19Is it because your client, your existing client base was in that area or how do you actually go and pitch for businesses? I think this is sort of personally driven from my own sort of set of values, really. I didn't want to start a company just for financial gain. In fact, it's relatively low on my priority list. As long as we can sort of function as a business and make ends meet, then I wanted to actually, you know, act somewhere between a sort of a college

11:51or a body that can help young designers out into the industry and someone that can help young businesses who are doing something good out into the world. And that, for me, was far more valuable than sort of making bucket loads of cash. I suppose that informed why and what we wanted to do. So we've been really open about that. And I think that's differentiated us from a lot of other agencies. And we've won some really good clients.

12:22For example, we've got a plant-based baby food subscription that we're working with at the moment and a beauty subscription brand, which, you know, you post the packaging back once you've used it. So I think it's given us as a brand a real differentiation. And I think that being different is what branding is all about. So, yeah. And can I ask how, what's the process of that kind of pitching? Because obviously, do you have contacts in the area or do you go, how do you normally pitch for business in that space?

12:58Yeah. I would say that a lot of it is referral. So if you do a good job for one person, especially in something like the startup sector, you know, you've probably got an investor who's invested in 10 different startups. They all probably know each other or they all went to the same incubator or something along those lines. There's a lot of referral. But also, I just think LinkedIn is incredibly powerful in terms of just, you know, you can reach right to the top. You can literally message a CEO or a marketing director and just make that connection.

13:32And I found that really useful.

13:35And so you mentioned you're kind of trying to bring on a lot of junior designers. Do you find that sustainability is something that they're looking to kind of work on to kickstart their career? Is that like a core value you're seeing in the next generation? Yeah, I think this is where the original idea for Childish came about is that I was teaching at Shillington College of Design. And I noticed a lot of the sort of briefs that we were giving people were, yeah, based around sorts of social good.

14:06And I could see that it really got the students engaging with the project. And then I think back to my own experience from working in the industry. I've not really had the opportunities to work on things that did feel sort of like they were for social good. And that struck me that with changing mindsets, I think especially in sort of like Gen Z and the younger millennial group, there is this sort of real desire to do something good and a bit of a refusal to do something that you don't believe in for money.

14:44And I think that that shift is still taking place within the design industry because there's so many agencies that will just work for anyone as long as they pay enough money. And I think that designers are going to start demanding that that changes. And hopefully we can be a part of that.

Teaching and Agency Balance

15:02Cool. So one of the other areas that your agency focuses on is packaging, which I thought would be quite interesting to explore a little bit. How does so how do you create effective packaging? What does that design process look like? And I suppose how do you bring a company's values and everything else that goes along with that into a packaging design? Yeah, I think for me, it's about balance. So, you know, we develop that brand, that overall expression of the brand before we move on to the packaging.

15:39It's it's one of the rollouts, you know, so whether it's moving on to a digital execution or a print execution, you have to get that brand really locked down and signed off first. From our point of view, there are agencies out there that I've worked at before who would move straight into pack if it was, say, for example, an FMCG product, the pack would be the first thing they design. We don't see it like that. We think that the brand needs to be applicable to everything. So getting that sort of signed off as a first port of call is crucial for us.

16:11In terms of translating that into pack, I think it's about finding that balance between emotion and those those product benefits. So if, say, for example, you've got a product which has a really edgy tone of voice and it's saying quite shocking things like something like BrewDog, you know, you're probably not going to waste the real estate of the packaging to miss the opportunity to actually state that it's a logo or to state that the name of the brand to get that brand equity out there or to state that it's got a certain ingredient that people are sort of pining for or that it's a vegan product.

16:53So it's about finding that balance between the emotional buy-in and then the product benefit. And I'd say the best examples of packaging find that balance really well. In terms of the process, from a more structural point of view, it's about taking those elements. And I suppose we usually try to flex different places on that scale from sort of emotional buy-in to functional benefits.

17:26And we let the client help decide with where they want to sit on that scale. And that would, I suppose, drive the different options that we'd create for packaging. Once we got towards a solution that we were happy with and the client was happy with, we'd probably design a few different SKUs. So that would be like, you know, if you had 30 different flavors or something, you'd probably get two or three signed off first. You'd then roll that out to the full suite of packs.

17:56You'd probably do some sampling or proofing. Then it'd go into what we call artworking, which is making sure that it's all print ready. And off to the printer. Cool. And it feels like packaging has become quite a big part of the experience of actually receiving a product now, whereas in the past, maybe it wasn't. And I feel like potentially Apple kick-started that, you know, you've got the whole experience of the lid kind of sliding off or whatever. Are there any other really good examples of packaging that you've seen or you found, I guess, inspiring?

18:30Yeah, it's interesting because there's two elements of packaging, isn't it? There's structural and there's graphics. And I think that you have to sort of view them both together. But especially in the space that we work, you know, startups don't really have huge budgets to start structurally redesigning packaging. And, you know, the majority, I would say even in big brands, they're using pre-made systems, essentially. So you'll buy a blank can or you'll buy a blank box and you'll maybe pick the material it's made out of.

19:07But I think in terms of Apple, you know, they've probably got budgets to go above and beyond and make that experience absolutely amazing from both a structural and a graphic design point of view. Other brands that spring to mind would be, I actually saw a really interesting, I love when brands that aren't actually considered sort of cool do something that's really interesting. So I was in, I was in a DIY shop the other day and there was this new paint sample, you know, the little paint pots that you get to test the sample on your wall.

19:46Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dulux had invented a new one, which you could actually, it had like a mini roller attached to the end of it. So rather than sort of having to have a brush, you just literally squeeze the sample and it has a little roller on the end. And I just thought that was a little bit of genius. Now my kids would love that. Yeah. It was really interesting. Obviously, packaging is one representation. I'm just kind of going back to what you said at the beginning of having that, you know, identity signed off and ready and then translate that identity into different forms like packaging.

20:22Yeah. In my experience working with brand agencies in the past, and obviously these are like big brand, traditional brand agencies, it's kind of like they always forgot, not always, but I would say 99% of the time, they all forgot about digital as a channel. Yeah. And it's very, very heavy on the print side. And when you try to translate that into digital, there's a lot of friction between digital agencies and brand agencies in that sense, because they don't really think about digital at all.

20:59They basically focus more on the print. So what's your opinion about that? I couldn't agree with you more. And I think it's something that needs to change, but I think it's something that will change organically rather than with force. I think that a lot of those traditional brand agencies, and I've worked for them myself, are ran by creatives who were around before this sort of onslaught of digital design. So, you know, they're obviously not going to be driven by that quite so much.

21:31But I think from, I suppose, sort of my age and younger, we think about that as we're designing. So I do see that being a problem that will sort of naturally erode, because we bring it very much to the forefront of our process, for sure. That's great.

Teaching Experience

21:49Right, moving on to teaching. Well, you mentioned at the beginning that you were a teacher at Shillington College, which, you know, you can explain maybe a little bit more what that college is. But now you're going to be teaching at a university as well. Yeah. So what is the best thing about teaching and why are you still doing it, even though you've got your agency and you're still really busy? Yeah, I think for me, it just puts things into context. I think designers can quite easily become quite egotistical.

22:22I've definitely been guilty of that in the past. He says, as he sits here talking about himself for half an hour. But I think just, yeah, focusing on others, it feels a lot better than focusing on yourself. And it's just something that I've learned over the years, I suppose. But it puts your own little worries into context against, you know, a vast ocean of graduates trying to find work and get out there in the industry. Yeah. So what is the main difference between somewhere like Shillington and university?

22:59How do you pronounce that? Is it Ravensbourne? Ravensbourne. Yeah, that's where I used to live, actually. Ravensbourne. I'm always scared of pronouncing something in this country because you don't know what it is. So that's why I said it. Sorry. So what's the main difference? I'm actually just about to start teaching at Ravensbourne. So it's hard to say what the landscape is there. But I did do a traditional design degree myself and obviously taught at Shillington. So for those that don't know, Shillington is a three month intensive course.

23:31I think the main difference is that one really, really prepares you to go straight into a studio and be financially viable as an employee. So, you know, at Shillington, you're you're in there every day from eight to five thirty or taught all of the software, you're taught the shortcuts, you're taught how to treat type and layout and you're working to realistic timelines. I think universities are slightly different.

24:03It's much more drawn out. You're given more time to develop things like concepts and opinions on things. So I think both are really important. And I still think there is a sweet spot somewhere between the two that no one's quite cracked yet. But let's see how it goes at Ravensbourne. Maybe we can do that there. Good luck. And what was the sort of makeup of students at Shillington? Was it all sort of new graduates or younger people? Or were there any ones looking to change career?

24:35Yeah, absolutely. I would say 50-50. I'd say 50 percent of the people there were career changers. And the age range was probably from I think the youngest student I taught was 18 and the oldest was about maybe 40. OK, it's quite a range. And what were the reasons? I don't know if you dug into it much, but if you did have any insight, like what were the reasons for wanting to change careers and what were they changing from? Would be quite interesting as well. Yeah, I mean, it was varied.

25:07You'd have some people that were sort of already done a design degree and they just wanted to sort of brush up on their skills a little bit more and develop a bit more of a process. Then you'd have people who were an accountant and they felt like they wanted to do something a bit more creative. But I think the main motivator really is that they think that it's going to be really fun. And that's something that I think... You see beat that out of them, I guess. Yeah, exactly. I think it's almost day one when we break the harsh truth that it's probably not that fun.

25:43I've met a lot of designers and I can't remember anyone sitting there with a smile on their face all day. I think it's rewarding and I think it's worthwhile, but that's very different from, I think, what people initially get into it for. And I think that's something that needs to be educated a little bit more, I think. Yeah, I've spoke about it a bit before on the podcast, but I remember looking at like a computer graphics module while I was at university and when they were sort of promoing the course and stuff, showing like Toy Story or whatever.

26:15It's like, oh yeah, that'd be pretty cool. And then I went to sort of the taster session and it was just like, here's 18 pages of maths on how you draw a sphere. I was like, yeah, maybe not. But yeah, I think the reality is very different from the sort of imagination of it, isn't it? I actually met people who actually did the course thinking before they joined the course, this is just going to be fun. This is going to be, you know, something different, blah, blah, blah. And then like crying because they had no time to do anything.

26:49And it was just really full on, which I mean, I'm still enjoying it, but, you know, it's really, really tough. And I know, I wonder how much does like natural talent play a part in being a good designer versus being trained? Because, you know, even if I, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but even if I did a course like that, I didn't think I'll be a very good brand designer. You know what I mean? I don't think I actually developed those skills. Do you think people can actually do that? I think it's, I think it's, there's, there's, I suppose there's scope, and I don't think it's this sort of black or white yes or no situation.

27:26I think that some people are very analytical thinkers, some people are very lateral thinkers. And I think that there is room within the role of being a designer for every different type of mindset. But I would say that something like working in brand design or advertising probably suits people who can think laterally quite, quite sort of intuitively, if that makes sense. I would say that if you were to go and design annual reports, or maybe if you were to go into UI design, then maybe you're a bit more systematic in your nature and you don't want to go so much down into that conceptual side of things.

28:11But I think, I think it's, it's definitely an interesting topic. And I don't think there's a, I suppose, a clear cut answer, but I'd say lateral thinking is something that seems to be inbuilt and quite hard to teach, I would say. So looking to the future then a little bit, you're going to be teaching lots of students, I guess, going forward.

Future of Design

28:33What challenges do you think that next generation designers are going to be facing, I guess, post-COVID and just generally in the future? Yeah, I was actually speaking to two graduates yesterday, and there does seem to be this attitude at the moment that, that people just aren't going to find jobs because of COVID or because of the pandemic. And I'm sure that is the case for people, but it's just really not a very helpful attitude to have, you know, stay positive, keep applying, keep designing.

29:06And it's no different 10 years ago when I graduated, it took me eight months to find a job. So I think this sort of victim culture that people are creating for themselves isn't, isn't really going to help them. I think just, just keep going. I think the pandemic will have an effect, but it may have loads of opportunities as well. So if you start jumping to negative conclusions, you're going to do yourself out of a job. That is so true. And I think that, as you said, there's a lot of opportunities and you with your new agency as well, kind of is an example of how you can still do good stuff and, you know, and survive in the middle of the pandemic.

29:44Absolutely. Just to wrap up now, I just, we always ask this question around what can you advise designers or junior designers or people getting into brand design? What do you recommend they do? Are there any books, podcasts, resources, courses, or something that you recommend for them to either, you know, get their brain like ready for it or get it started in brand design?

30:16Yeah, definitely. I think if they're changing from another discipline, I'd definitely, I'd definitely recommend a course, something like Shillington, or if they've got time, do a degree. I think either is a good option.

30:30I think if they are maybe changing from another design discipline or they're quite early in their career and they haven't chosen a specialism yet, then I think, you know, start having a go at some hypothetical branding projects to add to their portfolio. Maybe build an online presence and start raising some awareness of what you're up to. And I think something that people don't seem to do anymore is pick up the phone for its original use, like we're doing now, I suppose.

31:01Call people. They are absolutely happy to talk to you.

31:07And I think asking a creative director if they've got 10 minutes for a coffee is one of the most unique things you can do these days, which is crazy when you think about it. And actually, now they say that with the pandemic, people have actually more time because you can do a Zoom call anytime so you can have access to people easier than before. Absolutely. And I've seen a huge offering from creative directors and things on LinkedIn offering to help graduates and give them a bit of their time.

31:37So I think there's definitely people out there willing to help. In terms of books, I've got three here. So one is a typography book called Type Matters. You definitely can't design a brand without knowing how to design with typography. The other one is the Advertising Concept book. I think it's just a fantastic source of all of the great conceptual design work that's been created over the years. And it's actually amazing because it shows you the work in sketch form.

32:10It doesn't show you how it ended up when it was fully designed. It's just how was the idea originally drawn on a piece of paper. That's great. And the final one is Creative Mischief by Dave Trott. Now, that's an actual sort of – it's not a book that you look at the nice images. It's a book that you read and it's all about how to think more creatively and how to sort of beat the competition. So, yeah, I'd recommend those three.

32:41As a wider point, I think you can't really be a brand identity designer unless you're embracing wider culture. So, listening to comedy, watching great films, reading novels, if you're going to be working in an industry that's connecting with people culturally and you are culturally void, you won't understand your audience and you won't understand what they're drawn to. So, I'd just say be curious and try a bit of everything and try to understand what drives people and what they're drawn to.

33:12That's really great. It's actually – I'm taking notes as you speak because in my new job that I only did for a couple of weeks before I might leave, actually, I have to work with a lot of creatives and a lot of the work that I do is to inform, you know, concepts and creativities are definitely really useful for me. Thank you so much. Absolutely. No problem. So, thank you, Andy, for, like, being here to share with us all your knowledge and really, really good luck with your new agency and your new course in Ravensbourne – how do you pronounce it again?

33:46Ravensbourne. Oh, my God. Why do you have to make names so complicated in this country? Ravensbourne University. Good luck. And, yeah, we'll see you around. Perfect. Thanks for having me, guys. It's been really nice to talk. Thank you.

34:03Search and subscribe to Design Untangled using your favourite podcast app and leave us a review. Follow us on the web at designuntangled.co.uk or on Twitter at designuntangled, at chris__mears__ux, and at carlalindate. Become a better designer with online mentoring at uxmentor.me.

34:33Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.