S2E3: Eduardo Sonnino - How to design tactile hardware experiences remotely

Introduction

0:00Carla, I'm really uncertain at the minute. Can you help me? Yes, I can. I have a solution for you. You know what it's called? No, what is it? Designing for a new level of uncertainty. An amazing title that describes exactly what the content will be. I know. So, yeah, we're part of Repotify to interview lots of designers around the world, talk about how we can navigate this completely new level of craziness in the world.

0:32Cool, I guess I'll probably subscribe and listen to that as well. Yeah, definitely enjoy Season 2 of Design Untangled.

0:45I'm Chris Mears. And I'm Carla Lindarte. We're two UX designers. And we hate jargon. So, we're here to help you untangle the world of design. Cut through the crap and talk about what really matters. Yes, solving people's problems. Welcome to Design Untangled.

Guest Introduction

1:08Hello, everyone, and welcome to Design Untangled with me, Carla Lindarte, and Chris Mears, like always. And today we have Eduardo Sonino. Eduardo is currently in the U.S., and he is a senior product designer at Microsoft. And he's got a very, very interesting background as he was part of a team who worked on this Surface Duo. So, welcome, Eduardo. Thank you for being with us today. Oh, thank you so much for having me.

1:38It's super exciting to join you guys today.

Eduardo's Background

1:40Great.

Eduardo's Background

1:40So, just tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of how you go into your role at Microsoft. It'll be interesting to know. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm born and raised in Brazil. And in Brazil, I studied computer engineering. Because, like, doing design in Brazil, it's a rough path, honestly. Like, hopefully today it's better. But back in the day when I graduated, it was really hard to have a career in design.

2:13So, my dad skewed me into computer engineering. And that's what I studied. And throughout my college time, I always participated in competitions for software development and interface design, along with my brother. My brother is a hardcore developer. So, he codes way better than I do. So, we paired up really well him doing the code, and I used to just do the design for our projects.

2:44So, year after year, we competed in those competitions. And some of those competitions were sponsored by Microsoft. And we did really well on a few years. And after a few years competing, and after I graduated, I got an internship at a company in Texas called Telerik. But as a designer, not as a developer, because of all the projects that I have worked in the past, as a designer, I was able to gather kind of a good design portfolio.

3:25And I was able to land an internship as a designer in this small company. And that springboarded me into getting a design internship at Microsoft in the Windows Core team that used to do search and start a taskbar. So, that's how I got my food on the door at Microsoft, got a job, and moved to North America to join the company.

Coping with Pandemic

3:57First question, I guess, is just how have you been coping with the pandemic, just personally and work-wise as well? Yeah, definitely, it has changed quite a bit. All the meetings are online. And my role at Microsoft, I work on the Surface team right now. And our team works with software and hardware. And as you can imagine, doing hardware, there's a lot of physicality in it.

4:28There's a lot of touching the products, touching the materials, making physical prototypes, carrying them around. So, it's been quite challenging to work on the hardware space remotely, mainly because of the physicality nature of the trade. So, how have you tried to overcome that? Because, yeah, as you mentioned, it's very reliant on, I suppose, both you and customers being able to physically kind of touch and hold devices, as you say.

5:02Like, have you found any remote workarounds for that, or is it just something you can't recreate?

5:12So, because we work on a software and hardware space, for software solution, we always prototype our solutions and demo them in the hardware that we're designing for. So, for that specific solution, in our remote meeting, instead of just sharing my screen and showing a PowerPoint deck or a Figma artboard, I bought a tripod with a camera and I put it in an angle to shoot me using the device over my shoulder so it can showcase people, me using the prototype on the device, other than just sharing my screen and showing what's on my screen.

6:01And that's, on the software side of things, have helped immensely. Like, instead of just sharing my screen and showing the pixels, I actually can showcase me interacting with the device, interacting with the prototype that I created. And that, on the software space, that helped a lot. On the hardware space, it's still very challenging. You still need to get your 3D printed prototypes and touch them and feel them.

6:33So, we've been doing kind of a rotation for going to the office in the safest way possible to check on prototypes. There are some other prototypes that we mail to people. So, we mail directly to their homes so they can try it out and then give them back. So, that's how we've been coping with the situation.

7:03So, how do you record the feedback from, like, when you post a device to someone? Is it like a diary study kind of thing or do they film themselves using it? For the software prototypes, we get into video calls and that does the trick usually. Like, because we're doing, instead of just turning on my camera, I turn on this tripod camera that shows me playing with the prototype. And we have a conversation around the experience that I'm showing that has been shot over my shoulder.

7:34For the hardware ones, it's definitely more of a one-at-a-time feedback.

7:50Sometimes we have to wait a full week for everyone to have experienced the physical prototype. And then we can have a conversation around the specific model. So, it gets a little bit slower, the feedback process. But I think still, we managed a way to get everyone's input and make sure everyone has a voice on the process of hardware making. So, it's interesting.

Role at Microsoft

8:19It'd be interesting to know a little bit more about, because obviously, as you talk about how you do the prototyping and testing, you're kind of explaining your role. But it'd be good to know what your role was in the process and what kind of, like, team setup you had. Like, what kind of skill sets and people you had in the team. So, my team at Microsoft, so I've been working on the Surface Duo project for the last couple of years. And my team specifically deals with the space between where hardware meets software.

8:57So, trying to get that, it's basically in the studio, we don't have quite a differentiation between a hardware designer and a software designer. We're all product designers. And, but my team specifically deals with a lot of prototyping and bridging the gap between design and engineering. So, you can imagine that the skill sets of the folks in my team, they are all around prototyping, coding, and translating UI from Figma or Sketch into code, into XML or XAML.

9:42So, and also translating the motion design from After Effects or Protopi or Principle into real code. So, we try to, my team specifically tries to digest as much as possible the design assets into the engineering team. So, we can have, we can bridge the gap between the design process and the engineering process.

10:14Because I'm interested to learn a bit more about those conversations you have with the hardware engineers. So, like, could you give us an example maybe of one of the, maybe design problems that you had to tackle and come to a solution with them during the development of the device or any more other general examples you can think of? Oh, yeah, for sure. So, on Surface Duo, for instance, we have a fingerprint reader on the side of the device.

10:48So, right below the power button, there's a fingerprint reader right there. And we had many, many studies of, like, when the fingerprint reader should be on or off so it doesn't activate in your pocket, for instance. Or if, what's the hinge angle? For those who doesn't know Surface Duo, it's a two-screen device that opens up, it has a 360 hinge. So, as you open the device, you can peek on notifications and at the time.

11:28So, also, the fingerprint reader ability to, like, when the fingerprint reader reads your fingerprint and it's either correct or not, how do we show that to the user? So, all those experiences that are hardware, software related, we had deep conversations between hardware engineers, software engineers, and the software design team and the hardware design team to come with the proper solutions for those.

12:02Cool, awesome. So, yeah, I had a question, I suppose, a bit more specific to the Duo.

Surface Duo Purpose

12:10Do you feel that because of COVID and the way people's lives have changed and their work has changed, do you feel like the purpose of that device was originally intended for has maybe shifted because of the pandemic? Or do you feel it's, sort of, of its time almost and people are looking to get a lot more productivity out of their personal devices?

12:38Yeah, that's a really interesting question because definitely when we started the concept of this product, we had no intention of it, of being a great device for you to use during a pandemic. It's something that definitely caught us off guard, but as you mentioned, like, the concept of productivity in a mobile device has been something that many, many companies have been trying to achieve for quite a long time.

13:12And Microsoft is, of course, one of the companies that have tried to heavily invest in that and try to pursue that mobile productivity. And I feel that although there are many interesting concepts on how to achieve mobile productivity, we think about two screens as being an amazing device that you carry with you all the time.

13:43It can serve many, many, many purposes in your life, and it can definitely make you more productive wherever you go, mainly because multitasking is built into the core experience of the device. It's not something that we added on top, as a lot of other devices have. So because multitasking and doing multiple things at once is the core of the device, it really shines through when you go through the experience and when you see it on your couch and you do two or three things at the same time with this very thin device on your hands.

14:27It's something that it's something that I don't think other concepts were able to achieve in such a seamless way.

14:37Like, usually the mobile devices, they start with one task, and then you can do something to achieve a half screen or split screen. But on Duo, the nature of the device is to do multiple things at once. Doing two or more things at once is the core experience of, and again, it's built into the heart and soul of the device, which is something very different for a mobile device.

15:07That sounds interesting because, you know, other companies have tried to do that in the past. And, you know, I remember the beginning of, you know, mobile devices and people, you know, do one thing at a time. But actually, as you said, people are doing multiple things at a time. So how did you guys kind of perfect that? Did you do lots of testing, user testing, or, you know, what was that design process?

15:39Yeah, we did a lot of user testing. And luckily, Microsoft has a lab called the Human Factors Lab, where we have all types of machinery to understand the responses of the human body to technology. So in terms of ergonomics, in terms of neuroscience, in terms of light. And you can't imagine, like, how many good insights we got from studying the human factors of tech.

16:15So it's basically, it's easier on your brain to do two things at once. And having that seam in the middle and doing two activities at once with Duo, it's easier on your brain than doing two things on any other mobile device, for instance. Because the cognitive load and the brain activity shows that the mental model and the experience that we achieved on Duo, it's really, it's just easier on people's brain than other multitasking approaches that other companies try to do.

16:54Yeah, interesting. I mean, as you said before, you obviously were planning to design a device that worked in the middle of a pandemic, right? And we, as designers, we always worked with a level of uncertainty on, you know, a product roadmap or features, etc. We kind of like, in the process, we keep making changes, etc. But how has the design of the Surface Duo changed, you know, as a result of COVID?

17:33I mean, for example, the latest Google Pixel has removed the, sorry, has brought back the fingerprint ID, because people and I with face masks, you know, it's harder to do face ID, etc. So was there anything in the kind of feature, you know, roadmap of the Surface that you guys had to change because of COVID and what's happening in the world? Yeah, when we were developing Duo, I believe the pandemics hit us in the latest phases of development of the product.

18:15So hardware-wise, definitely we were lock and loaded and we didn't, we weren't able to do much to pivot from our hardware design standpoint because of the pandemic per se. But on the software side, on the other hand, we saw amazing, interesting opportunities in different use cases that we never thought before being used with Duo.

18:46Duo has an interesting concept called app pairs that in one tap, you can open two apps at once on both displays. I mean, one on each display, and it was really interesting to see how people were using, all our users were using that feature to create different app pairs and app sets for their different needs during the pandemic. So you can imagine a Zoom call on one screen while you're taking notes or also like a video call while you're watching a video or while you're reading a book.

19:31So like with a textbook. So we couldn't do any hardware changes for the pandemic per se to inform the design of the device. But for sure, the way that people are using the device pivoted quite a bit. So the software experiences that we didn't anticipate while designing the product, they really changed because of the pandemic, which is super interesting. Yeah, that's super interesting.

20:03I mean, it's also like quite exciting that you guys were able to deliver something that is going to be useful for people. So that's really cool. Yeah, I think the other interesting thing about it is, you know, this whole season is about uncertainty and designing within it. And, you know, even before COVID, I think maybe some people thought if you did enough user research up front and enough iteration, iteration, sorry, then once you release your product, it's going to be fairly fit for purpose.

20:34But I think this situation you just described has proved that sometimes you will just never know things until it's actually in the hands of customers in the real world, right? Yeah, exactly. And that's the best way to learn. You just put something out and see how people perceive it, see how people use it, and you learn from that. And you learn and iterate and the whole fail fast mentality that we embrace so much.

21:07That's very true in these times. You can't foresee what's coming. So putting something, trying to foresee creates more effort and more churn than trying it out and learning from your mistake or from whatever you get right, I feel like. Yeah, so just following on the thread about how people's uses just changed, have you seen any other kind of trends around the technology in people's homes in general?

21:43So like, you know, smart speakers or Internet of things type devices, because I know I've been chatting to Alexa a lot more just for someone to talk to and getting a lot more involved in, I suppose, setting up ways my home can help me do work at home more effectively. So, you know, routines and all that kind of stuff. I'm just wondering if you've seen any of that kind of behavior. Yeah, absolutely. So being part of the service team, it's incredible because you can not only, you're not isolated into your problem space, but you also have access to other designers working in other programs.

22:26So you can see what people are doing with sound, what people are doing with the new laptops and new tablets. So it gives you exposure to a lot of interesting projects and makes your head spin quite a bit. So you can definitely see like how, of course, like conference calls and video calls now are vital for the work that we all do every day. So the investments on displays that are kind of a, not utilities, like utilities, like your fridge or your stove, are they called utilities?

23:17No. I think we call them white goods. White goods, yeah. White, yeah, exactly. Like thinking about devices as white, white goods. Yeah. I mean, you call them what you want to call them. White goods doesn't make any sense anyway because my fridge is black. That's right. That's how they call them in the UK. But in the UK, they always have weird ways of calling things. So white goods, so there are two big things that change, right? Like one was that when you're working in an office with your team, people that are online are often second citizens, which is very unfortunate.

23:59But it's like, it's very true. If you have, I feel that if you have five people in a conference room and three people online, those five people will have way more advantage because of body language, because of, well, everything that comes with being in the same room with other people. And unfortunately, the other three people, a lot of times become second citizens in a meeting like that.

24:32So reverse engineering that and thinking about that problem, it's something that we're very worried about. Not worried about, but we're actively investing on that. Whenever the office opens again, and some people are going to be comfortable going back to the office, but some people are still going to, won't feel as comfortable going back to the office. And how we can not go back to that situation of some people feeling like second citizens in a meeting when they're online.

25:04So we're thinking a lot on the hardware space about things like that, for sure. Like this, this coming back to the office and this mixed workspace where some people are going to work from home remotely, and some people are going to work from the office, how we can do things differently moving forward. I feel, I feel that's a huge theme that we're, we've been talking quite a bit. Like, and the second part, as, as you were mentioning, Chris, we've been spending too much time at our house, and this makes us reflect on how we can make our house smarter.

25:42Like our, our home is not just a place we wake up and, and then we leave, we leave our home and then we come back at seven o'clock, six, seven o'clock at night, and we have some food and sleep again. We spend all our creative time and our active time in our homes. And that definitely makes us think more about how we can make our home smarter, how we can make our home help us on our daily tasks, how we can make our home more cozy and make us feel more, not, not so lonely, you know?

26:22And what tech can make us, how, how tech can, and, and devices can, can accomplish those things as well. So I, I feel those two things, one is working remotely, how we can do work, remote work better, how we can improve this mixed works, workspace situation that we're going to get into very soon. And, and, and also how we can make our home, uh, like looking back at our home and reflecting more about our, the place where we live, how we can improve on, on, on our, our homes.

27:03Um, I have a, a question, like based on what you were saying and, you know, how people are like, cause consumers behaviors is changing so rapidly.

Design Process

27:13And, you know, going back to the point of uncertainty, um, how, like, do you guys prototype, let's say prototype lots of different features and then I've just kind of interested in the design process, um, and then just kind of go with lots of ideas first and then test those with, you know, with customers. And, and also talk to the engineer team to see if it's feasible, uh, or you kind of refine. So it's more like, I just want to understand what the design process you guys follow internally.

27:49Oh yeah. So, uh, because a lot of our projects in the surface team, they are, they run on devices that sometimes do not exist. Or they, they, they run those software projects, they run on devices that are, um, like they're, they're new farm factors. So, uh, as much as we can, we love designing on the devices that we're designing for.

28:21So prototyping is huge for the software side is, is a huge part of what we do in, in, in, in our team. Like my personal experience is, uh, like, usually I don't even go to pen and pencil. I go straight to my prototyping tool with like, we use prototype quite a, quite a lot, which is a prototyping tool. So prototype is almost my, my pen and paper. I, I go, when I have an idea, I go straight to prototype and I.

28:54I, draw a few boxes, make them, make them dance, uh, uh, in my prototype, put it into, uh, either, either the device that if we have the device already put it into the device or put it into something close to that device. And we showcase to ourselves to, into, in, in, in, in the design team, the prototype to evaluate if the, if the idea is good. And we also show that to the engineers to start getting an assessment of visibility of the, of the, um, of the idea.

29:31And we, we, we do have a very close relationship with our, our engineers where every step of the design process, we, we have meetings with them to validate if something is kosher or not. If something is expensive or not. So we, we have an assessment of, uh, of what, what, like how, how we can get around technical constraints and still have a very polished and, and conceive the best experience that we want.

30:04So we, yeah, we, we start, we start with prototyping from the get go. So like our, our wireframes are already prototypes and we, we just take the fidelity up a notch, uh, for, for the, for the ideas that we have the, the blessing from our design leadership, our design team and, and the engineering team all together. And we just take those prototypes to the next level, to the next level and so on.

30:36Great. Oh, that sounds good. That sounds like the ideal. I think with now all these tools available, it's much easier to do that than before, but yeah, sounds really good. So just to wrap up now, um, we always ask this question to most of our guests and, um, I hope I'm not putting you on the spot there, but I just wanted to see if there's any books, podcasts, resources, or, uh, something interesting that you recommend, um, junior designers.

31:07So just designers like you, experienced designers who are looking for advice to navigate today's like uncertainty and complexity of, of the design world. If there's anything that you can tell them that you can tell them to do or action, um, that is a bit more tangible, it would be great. Uh, yeah, no, that's, that's always hard to, to recommend. I, there's, uh, there's, uh, I'm, I'm going to do something a little bit, not so orthodox.

31:42It's, um, my dad gave me a book called finish. It's, uh, it's, uh, it's not designed related, but I think it, it brings a lot of good topics. Uh, let me, the author of the book is John Akuf. I think that's how I pronounce his name. Um, and basically it's kind of like, uh, it's a book that talks about, uh, it's called finish.

32:14Give yourself the gift of done and my, my dad gave me that, uh, that book as a, like a backhand slap compliment. I don't know how, how the, the, the term goes, but it's complimenting backhanded compliment, um, saying that like, I do a lot of things, but I don't finish them because a lot of times I'm, I'm too perfectionist on the things that I do.

32:44And I think that's, um, and then, uh, he gave me the book, I read it and it's kind of, uh, it's, it's an interesting book that mentions, uh, basically that, well, uh, done is better than, than you, it's basically you give yourself the gift of done. And by that, uh, it means that, uh, you, you give, you give out your perfectionism to, to have realistic, uh, goals and achieve them and finish whatever you, whatever you, you, you started.

33:23And that's, uh, for, for, for designers, I think that's really an interesting concept because a lot of designers start their, uh, their journeys thinking about like every task needs, every step of the process needs to be perfectly polished and perfectly, um, presentable. Presentable and it needs to be high fidelity and needs to be exactly how it will be in the end.

33:53And they give out the, um, they give away the, the, the scrappiness and the, the, the nimble of wireframing and prototyping and being, and having tons of. Ideas and scrapping them and failing fast because they, they, they, they attached themselves to perfectionism. So that book actually sparked me something interesting, which is basically.

34:25Giving, uh, so letting, letting that perfectionism go and, and making sure that you finish whatever you try to, what, what, what you started. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I know many people who could probably use a bit of a read of that book. Yeah. Especially me.

34:49Eduardo, thank you so much for being with us. Really interesting, um, insights for our audience and yeah. Good luck with the future products that Microsoft are going to release. Thank you so much for the invitation.

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35:23Thank you. Thank you.