Heavy Weather – Weather Report

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0:00Welcome to the show.

0:30I'm Adam Maness. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast. Music Explored. Explored, brought to you today by OpenStudio. Go to OpenStudioJazz.com for, oh, your jazz lesson needs. Peter, things are popping off over at OpenStudio. I don't know if you know this, but we've got a bunch of new courses in the can. We've got a new course coming from legend Larry Goldings. Yes. So anybody who's interested in those beautiful triads that Larry Goldings likes to play,

1:01we have a course coming on that. We've got a new course featuring you and I called Jazz Piano for the Bandstand, where we teach you how to play with other people on the bandstand from our two beautiful pianos over here. I prefer to use the alternate title for that course. Yes, sir. Two Bad MFs Teach You How to Live a Musical Life. But we didn't go with that. Marketing, can we change it, please? And then last but not least, we introduced our pathways to OpenStudio just a couple months ago. So we have our Jazz Foundations pathway, where I teach you the very beginnings of Jazz Piano, the Jazz Piano Expansions pathway, where we talk to intermediate players about how to expand their skills.

1:35And then, of course, you're the host of the Jazz Piano Method, which is our ongoing Crown Jewel pathway for advanced players. That's a very nice way of just saying that I only know how to do the advanced stuff because I somehow forgot everything on the way there. So I brought in smart cats like you. But yeah, it's great. And you're bearing the lead, as we say. Go. We have a brand new platform. We do have a brand new beautiful— Which is like a platter. It's like a digital platter in which the courses and pathways are stacked up. Yeah. That thing is so fast, it actually loaded a page before I clicked on it. How did it know what I was about to click? It's intuitive. It's intuitive.

2:05Go to OpenStudioJazz.com. That's OpenStudioJazz.com for all your jazz lessons needs Peter.

Weather Report and Heavy Weather

2:10It's a big day today. It is a big day. This is one of our most requested albums on the show. Does our audience skew fusion? Because if so, they're going to be happy. There's a pocket of our audience that is the fusion pocket. Yes. And they are there. Right. They've got pockets on their pants. Whoa. He's covered in hot. I like it. But they want more pocket. They want more fusion pocket. And this is a classic jazz fusion album. I know the guys in Weather Report don't like that term. But I mean, when you think of jazz fusion, you think of Weather Report. Yeah. And I am very excited because like I said, we've had a lot of comments, a lot of angry

2:45comments about why haven't you guys done heavy weather. And so today we're doing a 1977's heavy weather. But before we get into heavy weather, Peter. Yeah. Yes. Let's start at the beginning. Just do it. So this band. Louis Armstrong, 1928. Beginning of the recording industry. So it's New Orleans, 1916. No. A young Joe Zavano gets off the boat. So the beginnings of Weather Report start with a very familiar name around here at the You'll Hear Podcast, Miles Davis. Right. So just before this was happening, Joe Zavano and Wayne Shorter, who had known each other

3:15for years, but they had just played on together in a silent way. Yeah. And Bitches Brew, two enormous albums in the grand scheme of jazz history. And I think you could say fusion history too, although they aren't exactly fusion albums for sure. But they get together with a few other musicians and they start this band, this project called Weather Report, and they record a self-titled album in 1971. And it's not like the album we're about to listen to. It sounds more like this.

3:54That's Miroslav on the bass. Yeah.

4:12Czechoslovakian at that time. Bass master. Yeah.

4:19So you could hear how this is straight out of Bitches Brew. I mean, it's not exactly... And in a silent way. And in a silent way. It has more of that tone to it than what Weather Report would eventually become. Weather Report would eventually lean in to the funk a little bit more. And just a few years later, in 1974, they released an album that you and I agree is one of our favorites. Yeah. And we should redo this album. We did it, I don't know if you remember, we did Mysterious Traveler from 1974 from Weather Report. We did it during the pandemic. Do you remember? Which pandemic? The COVID pandemic.

4:50I don't know if you remember because your brain is fried now. COVID-19. COVID-19. I think it was COVID-19. Right. Didn't hit us till 20. Till 2021. We're a little behind things. Yeah. But we did... Yeah, I do remember that. ...in that Tuesday night series, we listened to Mysterious Traveler and you could tell that something is changing by this point. Right. Well, it's not Miracle Law anymore. That's one thing.

5:18Yeah. It's a rotating cast of bass players, drummers, and percussionists. Alphonse Johnson. Alphonse Johnson.

5:30This is Cucumber Slumber from Mysterious Traveler.

5:35Damn. That bass is high up in the mix. It's like the bass is above Wayne, but it works. Yeah. Right? And that's not... That's not... What are you doing?

6:05This is a great song. The way they come out of it... Oh. You know what? That'll be good. We'll come back and do that record. No, we should do Mysterious Traveler at some point. I think that might be artistically Weather Report's peak, but it was not their commercial peak. Right. So, like I said, up until this point, you know, it's mostly been Joe and Wayne. Yeah. And this rotating cast of drummers, bass players, and percussionists.

Jaco Pastorius joins the band

6:26And it happens again. They find a kid from Florida named Jaco Pastorius. Shout out Florida. I'm a kid from Florida. Fun fact. This is keyboardist and founder Joe Zavanal talking about when Jaco joined the band. It was July 1975, exactly. We just came back from Boston. Cannonball Adderley had died. It was a very hard thing for me. And I wrote a song, it was called Cannonball. I had this little melody in the beginning, which I thought this guy's tone would be perfect for this kind of thing, you know? So we started right with this particular tune.

6:58And in the beginning, he was busy, you know? So I just stopped the band for a minute and said, you know what? We already know you can play. Forget about that. But you are here with us now, you know, with the veterans. You have a beautiful tone. Use that tone. And what happened at that point is on the record. Yeah. So he's talking about Jaco Pestorius, the bassist, who would make his debut with the band on a couple of tracks of their 1976 album, Black Market, when he was just 24 years old.

7:29Everybody else is in their 40s or 30s. Yeah. And Joe Zavanal and Wayne were like, they were the same generation. They were almost exactly the same age. And the generation before Jaco. Here's that track. Jaco. That track Cannonball with Black Market with Jaco taking the lead. Oh, yeah.

7:47Oh, perfect percussion.

7:51Oh.

7:58Jaco famously plays a fretless bass. Yeah. Fretless electric. That he de-fretted, I believe. Is that true? Yeah, I think it's, I believe it's, we're not journalists, Fender Jazz Bass. Oh, yeah. He took the different frets off.

8:19Shout out Scott's bass lesson. I think I watched the video on that.

8:25So this is the first Jaco recording, right? Yeah. I mean, first time he recorded with it. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, man. Man, whether you report, I forget. So, like, from the first album, Cucumber Slumber, Black Market, what we're about to get into today, Heavy Weather, and then I'm going forward, like, I'm skipping over some stuff, but I got to see them live at 85. We'll talk about that a little bit later. But I'm remembering now, and that was the final band, actually. Yeah. Omar Hakim on drums. Great. They were- Powell Hall, two blocks from here.

8:55Beautiful. Crazy. They had crazy lights and stuff, you know, brought, it was a rock show. Yeah. Um, but they really were a band, I mean, the thing that held, not held the band together, the only constant was Joe and Wayne, right? Yeah. Through that whole period. I mean, we associate, especially what we're about to listen to with Heavy Weather as, am I allowed to say it, almost a Jaco record, right? Jaco kind of takes over the band for a couple years here. Right. But that's just a small- He's such a huge personality. I mean, listen, Joe and Wayne are giants.

9:25There's no doubt about it. And they want, I mean, they let him. Yeah. He wasn't a hostile takeover. But he's 25 years old. Yeah. You know, he's bringing some energy that I think is, you know, how it is when you get to your 40s, like, whoa, this kid is like on fire. He's like a bolt of light and energy. Let him cook, right? Weather Report had never had a hit, though, Peter. We've skipped over some albums. Right. After six-hour albums, they've never had a hit. And then when Jaco came fully on board with Heavy Weather, the band recorded this album in a matter of weeks, and the result was one of the best-selling jazz albums of all time. And then it went on to become a crossover hit, reaching, get this, number 30 on the Billboard

9:59200. That's not the Billboard Jazz 200. No, that's the album. That is the Hot 100. Well, I don't even know. No, it's the albums. Hot 200. No. Yeah. Cold, is it the Mild 200? It's the Billboard 200. The Tepid 200. All right. The charts people are really pissed off now. But it reached number 30, which is insane. Yeah. Specifically, this first track. And like number 35 or something on R&B. I don't know why it was lower. But I mean, the fact that it made both those charts is insane. But yeah, the Billboard 200 is. So the first track is the hit of the album. It's one of the biggest jazz crossover hits ever.

10:31Legend has it, according to an interview with Jaco and according to a few other sources, that there was recorded a single take.

Birdland and its legacy

10:38One take. Yeah. Yeah. And it's Birdland. And apparently that wasn't true. But it was close to one. Well, I don't know. I've heard both ways. I set it up all nice and then you knocked it down. I'm sorry. Sorry. It was possibly recorded. It was a minimum of one take. We know that. No less than. It's Birdland.

10:57That's Joe. I always thought that was Jaco when I was a little kid. I was like, man, how is he doing that? And then the next one. Let me shut up. Let me shut up.

11:10So sick.

11:27Harmonics. Yeah. That's harmonics on the bass. Double harmonics, I believe. Yeah. On a fretless. Which is crazy. Yeah.

11:36I mean, he was the Stanley Jordan of the bass.

11:40Man, I messed up that bass line in stage band. Every high school jazz band in the 80s and 90s played this song.

11:55Alex Acuna. Yeah. Interesting story about him like this.

12:04Joe Zavno, the master of the suspended fourth, resolving, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom

12:39Woo!

12:45Ah.

13:09Four. is it a little bit of vocoder or something i always thought a little bit of

13:48bgs or something i don't know i there comes a little later i don't know maybe hear that some kind of early sampler

14:18okay whenever you read i have a hot take on this go for it are we ready for this we're ready i think this is one of the weakest songs on the album

14:48hot take indeed scorching hot and i mean i really love the playing on this and i mean there's so much cool stuff and i played it in middle school jazz band badly you know and and then when manhattan transfer came back with the you know in 1980 or 70 late 70s that was huge that was i i mean because of my age i didn't remember this record but by that time i was starting to hear it and stuff quincy at the you know the night or late 80s um i feel like this song is just a

15:19bunch of vamps played so well and grooving but like what's the melody to birdlands this no well what about this is the melody that's what there's like four different melodies each section this is the weakest of all the melodies you think this is the weakest of all the i mean it's fine it's not mercy mercy me that's all i'm saying which was a bigger hit also mercy mercy me or mercy mercy mercy mercy mercy mercy mercy mercy mercy me yeah mercy mercy me it's 11 p.m in here you got

15:54me contracted here all day long it's a full eclipse out here i okay did i get too hot for you too early restate your heart hot take because i want to make sure that i got all these points i i think this is the weakest composition on this album i understand why you're saying jaco sucks no jaco is incredible wayne is overrated is that what you're saying wayne just doesn't play a lot on this record like this is not a i mean what he plays is great there's a couple really cool solos but like this is not a big wayne record no actually a lot of this is not on the apex mountain of wayne shorter i think a lot of the weather report records are not like wayne show no but he's got some moments

16:27he's got some moments but you're right black market i i kind of agree with you i feel like birdland is i mean for lack of a better phrase like it can't get out of its own way yeah in a sense and it's become so ubiquitous for musicians learning how to play this music that it's almost like it's hard to separate the middle school high school jazz band versions especially if like i'd never i didn't hear this the first time i heard it was my high school jazz bands person right and then they're like go check out the album me too but it feels just as a concept maybe a little

17:01bit more dated than some of the other weather report things like and i think that's due to its own success i think even more dated than anything on this record in a way that's what i'm saying yeah um but i think it's because it was so popular right it's there's so many it became kind of like its own genre birdland yeah people did so many different rip-offs of it it's hard to to uh not associate those watered down versions of this with birdland so i see what you're saying the connotations are i have the same kind of thing i don't need to listen to birdland a lot yeah anymore and i always think too like a great composition means not just the performance and the performance

17:35is stunning especially jaco it's awesome jaco's jaco on here alex acuna yeah but i mean zavanagh sounds that debate that are that's probably the arp 2600 probably the arp yeah um but that oberheim when he you know um but it's not i always feel like a great composition you can take to other great musicians yeah and they can really sink their teeth into it and this it's like you don't really want to hear anybody else well although manhattan transfer did but to be honest peter i mean that was great lyrics your take holds up with the fact that you don't hear a lot of people covering

18:06this anymore right it was something that was covered a lot in the 80s by people yeah but you don't hear a lot of people doing covers of birdland like in small group settings when you totally could yeah you totally could but i've never thought i'm not going to cover it i don't think it's on even the top five sovereign compositions i agree with that so i agree with that yeah and and i just think it's detached from this record now having said that if this wasn't the first song on here would this record have you know been one of the one of the first and only platinum jazz records if you consider this jazz which i do yeah that's gonna be another little thing because you love to get into

18:37the genres but i mean this is like if this song wasn't on this record and the all the rest of the album which i think is stronger i don't think this album is any bigger than any other weather report record interesting you know i think this is such an accessible thing the mail i know i'm saying that there's no melody there's four melodies yeah that's so and when it goes that's just simple and yeah and simple and when almost anybody else plays it it's corny they pull it off because there's so much like fusion um virtuosity going on it's got it's got a

19:11little shoulder shake it does but like it makes you you know what i mean a little sassy a little sassy yeah yeah but they but it could cross over into corny you know um you talked about alex acuna playing the drums here um yeah he had been playing percussion in weather report previous to this while chester thompson was playing the drums one day after rehearsal jaco said let's play some more and alex had his brushes playing on the table in the chair and they're playing you know miles davis and wayne shorter stuff and uh jaco was surprised that alex knew all these tunes on the drum kit apparently nobody knew i played drums alex said i respect that i was hired as a percussionist

19:43i'm going to play percussion but then later they all realized he's an amazing drummer right at the kit and he records on this album yeah yeah it's kind of awesome he's from peru isn't he he's peruvian peruvian right which is a cool thing because we don't come across that a lot but i mean i mean he's a he played on he wasn't he playing with maybe he wasn't by this point but he played with joni he played with everybody right after this yeah uh and it's manolo badrena on percussion right hearing an album is one thing but trying to play this stuff is a whole other thing but that's

20:14exactly what we do and teach at open studio world-class musicians real instructors all in one place go to openstudiojazz.com that's openstudiojazz.com start your free trial today back to the show um your pronunciation leaves something to be desired but we'll talk about that another time

A Remark You Made

20:32so not a fan of birdlands but i i gotta imagine you are a fan of the second track which is because another zavanal comp i love this a beautiful song called a remark you made yeah ethereal zavanal a master of the keyboards truly like an innovator maybe doesn't get enough credit for pushing synthesizers forward no whirlitzer maybe the all-time master of the whirling

21:04all this a little walk down in the bass that's that's some joe right there but i mean the way wayne phrases and the piano sound i think fits so good on this track and most of them except for birdland but if you think about it too that fretless bass is such an original sound at this time

21:34man not many people are doing it i forgot i think that synthesized i think that's one of the best plates synthesizer melodies phrased so he's phrasing it like wayne they're not like wayne

22:08shorter but with the same kind of it's stunning especially those instruments were hard to control back then listen i love the pads on this one yes that are happening here i mean yeah zavanal orchestrator knows how to mix the piano in man we didn't deserve wayne shorter he's just the greatest ever the greatest melody maker

22:38and i think you know for like wayne and joe they obviously bonded musically they came up like on the same i mean they were guys from the 50s like you know zavanal zavanal was in the u.s i believe if not in the late 50s no later than 1960 and that was like wayne cutting his teeth and then you know with art blakey like they came up they played together for a while in one of those big bands okay i forget which one uh put in the comments where did joe and wayne play together i'm spacing now but they played

23:09together when they were kids basically wow when they were young yeah and then i think you know zavanal's long association which is basically all the 30s 30s 60s with cannibal adderly and matt adderly you know and and wrote for them and played in the band i mean i'm like for a big part of that um and then of course wayne in the 60s developed art blakey done to the to what maybe considered the best miles davis quintet and then in a silent way which i don't know if wayne was on there but i know that i think zavanal wrote in a silent way actually yeah wayne's on there and

23:42bitches brew they're both on bitches brew okay so and then that leads to this so like they had this kind of simpatico in terms of how they approach things and as you said earlier you know being able to you know the the good fortune of jocko coming along but then recognizing that a generation behind and then this idea of um folk music of the future right you know and i think this is how they they describe this yes how zavanal does yes and he talked about that with you know when i got a chance in the early 90s to to hang out with them a little bit and uh some great times in an airport

24:13on a layover when we were all stuck there and he was joe just it was a bunch of young musicians and joe and him but then i saw him we were on the same sort of tour what the festival so we'd see him every couple days super nice guy um but he talked about this folk music of the future he had a band called this zavanal syndicate yeah that was it wasn't the next way uh weather report because wayne wasn't part of it but it was you know paco siri was playing drums and like he had a very interesting view i never heard him talking about fusion a lot but he was definitely the master of like what you know kind of early what became world music and a little bit of a dirty word well

24:47apparently these guys didn't like the word fusion they didn't want jazz fusion to be part of their did it cause some confusion for them it did okay um so a remark you made gorgeous yeah gorgeous track and it's followed up by i think the next track is this is the musician's musician track like this is the one that every bass player geeks out over and every drummer geeks out over which is interesting because this is not alex acuna on the drums no this is jaco pastorius on the bass

Teentown

25:14and the drums you know how hard that is to do that at the same time this is teen town the jaco composition by the way those pads are sick too wayne on the counter melody

25:48is that a timpani instead of a bass drum i don't think so i think it's a floor top that's a big ass for a low low maybe it's a timpani i don't know and this backwards high hat pattern just the greatest sound sound sound

26:21i don't know because praise that that synthesizer that's a bad-ass right there put the can't-can't put the can't-can't desert island Jimmy Henry influence

26:52there Bed oh this is gorgeous and I have conga

27:47there's so much space I forgot about that for Jocko as much as he's playing when he's not playing he ain't playing shit well that's what makes those like those things it sounds like what sounds like is the bass drum such a stupid ending that works so well I know why does that work so well that's another thing that if anybody else plays it like that stop it don't do it don't do it but it works I would never change it it's so great that bass drum sounds like those big not the ones in the

28:18marching band the ones in the symphony orchestra you know with the felt it might be something like a big furry I know we've got weather report nerds who know what that kid was made of that's the bandolino bandero cinco zapatico yeah but that's a I mean that's a flag in the ground right there for Jocko that's like yo I wrote this I'm playing bass I'm playing drums it's all bass and drums yeah aside from some textures from Wayne and Joe yeah and they're all in the background doing the perfect stuff yeah but it's just such a banger man yeah and it's you know the third song on the on the A side

28:48I think too on the first side what's interesting about this too like he takes it's almost like a swing beat turned backwards yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean can you play just the beginning of if you don't mind oh first of all you know I was like to pause it with this is a great drum intro this is a theme for the show an off kilter drum intro off kilter man he's just like but it feels amazing it's almost like Stevie Wonder playing like some fast fusion on drums you know oh and then oh I mean I guess

29:19this is the kick drum man maybe so just a weirdly tune well we'll talk about and that beat it is that like like Joe was so good at getting like the brass sounds on the keys on which was not easy at that time it wasn't like a few years later when the DX7 came you could make tramp hits Joe had it dialed in yeah but he gave it that brassy or kind of like you know I think that it's so diabolical right and then like

29:50and his command of that but we forget like how influential I mean yes all the incredible left hand you know just incredible technique that Jocko had everything but with that fretless with those with that not vibrato what do you call like the slides or vibrato that you can do so if the frets are there you can't really do that or it's a different kind of sound but the fretless and like he wasn't the first one to play fretless but I mean it was like pre-Jocko on electric bass and after there was no the most influential maybe of all time on electric bass

30:21yeah not the first but maybe the best certainly for soloing I mean you talk about James Jamerson obviously huge influence on electric bass players but there's there's something so unique about the sound of a fretless bass yeah like it it sounds like a bass but there's like but what is what's so different about the tone and it's got that sort of like thing that naturally happens because there's no fret and you can play it out of tune he didn't do it much we should have Scott and Ian tell us about it yes it'd be great I'm sure they've already made tons of videos about it Scott's bass lesson shout out Scott and Ian so now Jocko's gonna switch to steel drums

Harlequin

30:52to play Harlequin oh he plays steel I never knew that another great oh another great off kilter intro right here okay so I was so confused over this okay at the beginning do you know count it off with the intro how it feels to you okay ready just count two three wrong four one two three four and a half one two three four yeah that's what I thought it's not

31:22what the what yeah so do it again and I mean this is the great thing you don't have to know this but it's kind of fun and don't feel bad I didn't know this for years but can you play it again one four one two three no no no start again four one we're gonna get it we're gonna get it ready and two and three and four and one and two and three and four and one and two and three and then and then but you know what's so slick about it

31:53is Joe just switches over during the big drum thing so you don't notice you think that that's constant yeah he slides back that chord from off the beat to on the beat it's kind of seamless but it gives you a little bit of it is a javelin uh javelin javelin the javelin javelin more great phrasing melodic synthesizer i think Jocko

32:24slipped the mixing engineer a couple hundred dollars per track to push him up in the mix yeah we'll talk about the production at the end i've got some notes slight quibbles this is a little a little secrets headhunters-y a little bit you know it definitely is damn boy boy oh

32:55oh that's the jazz guys messing it up with too much stuff right i love it love it yay hercules hercules ah a lot of overdubbing on this record obviously i'm assuming

33:27man joe zavano big influence on joe sample you hear it and it's like his phrasing his lines harmonic approach i don't know it just hit me i never thought about oh that's a badass line he just played that's what i think

34:06is like another vocal i think that's a synthesizer though yeah i think it is too uh one it's so stupid it's great oh that's a cunha

34:41that's a stevie phil ah way shorter this is some of the

35:11most of his slang i don't know i just realized i had my notes here features steel drums played by jaco i don't hear any steel drums in that at all i don't even know why that's in there people are saying that there's steel drums people are saying there's steel drums in there but i don't think that's the case that must be a mystery maybe that was the uh maybe that's what he was playing on

Rumba Mama

35:40no that wouldn't be steel drums the next track is interesting uh cause it's a fun little aside shout out to st thomas we love the island hey this is written by vagina and acuna recorded live at the montroe jazz festival by delena jazz festival july july 8th 19 montrou montrou montrou july 8th 1976 okay can we talk about this track before we play it okay go we'll talk well it's very it's very different from everything else it's weird right well let's listen isn't this at the

36:11beginning of the uh side b yeah the second i think so yeah i remember it being a little bit i was like you know what can i be fully honest go i used to skip this track rumba mama on lp it's great but it's just you got it in my head now padrina um i don't know it's uh

36:42padelina padelina i don't know my my 条 come come come come come yeah I can't believe you used to skip this.

37:28I was a stupid nerd kid. Because I was just like, I was like obsessed with piano. So. You didn't have piano. Yeah. No, it was just like. Not much for passion or soul. I get it. Yeah. I mean, I was 12 years old or 13. I don't know. I was killing.

37:48Damn. And I remember when they, I mean, not this band, but when they used to have the drum tune interludes with Weatherport. It was stunning.

38:01Come on. And this became very influential for bands in this time, all the way up through the mid 80s to do these like, especially at live festivals. I remember doing this with Diane Reeves a bunch of times with the drummer, Munyungo Jackson, the percussionist. Yeah. Pretty great beat. Pretty great. No, of course it's great. It's just, but it's weird placement on this record. And like, to me, this kind of, you know, it's like a live track. It's not, I don't know. Ah, it's two minutes.

Palladium

38:32Yeah. What are you going to do? The next track is filler. It's the only. Great filler. The only track that was composed by Wayne Shorter. Yeah. This is called Palladium.

38:46Woo. Woo. Woo.

38:49Hey, here's a little shades of secrets.

38:53You think? Yeah. No. Herbie?

39:01When's the secrets pod? Did we do it? We didn't. Oh, God. What are we doing? This is an unusual Wayne tune, but it's got some Wayne-isms in it.

39:24Woo. Yeah, like the.

39:28I think this is killing too. It is. It is killing. I mean, I just want to go back to your hot take. Yeah. You're absolutely right. Birdland seems very, not as heavy. Right. As the other stuff on heavy weather. Or as you said before the mics came on, we were outside vaping. Don't you dare. Birdland sucks. Don't you dare. Woo.

39:55Woo.

40:00Man, Wayne's. The logic of his compositions is off the charts, man.

40:18Woo. Like the way that the melodies resolve the architecture of it. Oh. It's so satisfying, man. Is that Rhodes? That's Rhodes, isn't it? Yeah. Got it, yeah. It's a real crispy Rhodes. It's crispy. It's a little overdriven, just a little bit? Yeah, a little bit. Ah.

40:40I love Jocko's playing on this. It's so great. Like, relentless, man. Ah. And busy, but great. The sound when he goes up.

40:50Yeah. To those. That brassic keys. Ah.

40:55Woo. Wayne sort of just, like, there's something about his compositions.

41:04Man, he's just so in command of the elements of music, you know? It's very much Thelonious Monk-ish, you know? Where you're like, oh, I could have come up with that. No, you couldn't have.

41:21What's that? Okay. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. Speak, speak, man. Speak loud. I'm going to do my quibble bit now. Okay, let's do it. Only because the synths on Palladium are so fucking amazing. Yeah. They sound so good. Joe has them so dialed in. The production on this album bothers me a little bit in that it feels kind of thin, in that it feels very top-heavy. There's a lot of high-end on things. Yeah, even the bass. Even the bass. Even the bass.

41:51And I wonder what it would sound like if it was recorded in Stevie's classic run with those guys. Or if it was recorded with the Headhunters. Yeah. Dryness and warmth, right? Yeah. It's just maybe a little more consistency, too. Like, you mentioned secrets. Like, the synths, I don't think sound quite as good. Herbie doesn't have them as dialed in as what Joe's able to do. Yeah. Just, Joe has so many textures on the synths. Yeah. There's just, like, an amazing array of textures. But I feel a little cheated. Like, I wish it was a little warmer.

42:22And that's just a personal preference. I'm sure some people love the way this sounds. I honestly think the only track it really works well on is Teentown. I think for whatever reason, that high-end reverb that they have on Teentown, that's on almost every track, actually. But it really works in that scenario because it's kind of a sparse arrangement, you know? A sparse orchestration. But on, like, Palladium, on A Remark You Made, on Harlequin, on The Juggler, like, I want to hear the full richness of those analog synthesizers that Joe's playing.

42:55And I sometimes don't feel—and the bass, and the bass, too. Right. And sometimes I don't feel like I get it. That's all. Yeah. I mean, I almost feel like Wayne's sound is the most consistent. Like, you're getting—I'm not getting—one of my quibble beds, since we're throwing these around, is just always just more Wayne. You know what I mean? And this—but I mean, that's also not what this record's about. I get it. You know, I mean, there's plenty of other Wayne. But I would agree on the sound. But what he does is so beautiful. Oh, it's so great. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think—I would agree on the sound. I do think that there are times—I actually think a remark you made, I'm pretty much cool

43:26with almost all the sound. Like, the single-line synth stuff is stunning that Zalvinel does. And I mean, I'm sure if you listen to it, yeah, it could— The pads are stunning. Yeah. Everything is stunning. It's so pristine. And I mean, Birdland is a kick-ass mix. I mean, that's part of the success of it, you know? I guess so. But I don't—I don't know. I don't know if I agree, honestly. I think— I just feel it's uneven. I think Palladium is one—I mean, like, when it goes down to that bass, like, to that low— That big bass synth? Oh, man, it's like—it's off—it's not even off-mix. It's just—it's, like, disturbing to the architecture of the tune. It doesn't use what's so good about that sound, in my opinion.

43:57I'm sure, again, I don't—I'm not an expert on production, but I just feel like—I don't know. It's— Yeah, this is not a—I couldn't say this is an incredible-sounding record. Yeah. Yeah. But I do, at times—I don't know. To me, it doesn't ruin the experience. That's what I mean. No, not at all. No, I mean, we're talking about a very—like, this is a—it's a B+. It's not like— There are times, though, like what we just heard, that it does kind of, like, get in the way. I just wish—yeah. You just wish you had a little bit more, more, like, oomph to those sounds, you know? And I never— Because I know they're there. Right. Those—if we were in the room with it, the oomph would be, like, so with you, when

44:29those big analog synths can make those huge sounds— Maybe they just didn't want to record them great yet. No, 77, buddy. They— Ah, that's true. You know, they're doing it. Robert Marguliffe and Cecil knew how to record them. I mean, Asia's the same year. They knew how to record them. 75 times. Yeah. Well, I think, too, one thing that I do think is consistently subpar is the piano sound. And there's actually, like, in going back and preparing for this, I had forgotten how much—I mean, like, the synth stuff and the Rhodes and Whirly stuff that Joe does is so amazing.

45:00He plays a fair amount of piano on this record. Yeah, yeah. He's such a kid. And none of that is a great sound. The acoustic piano's not great. But this is not the era. It's not that kind of thing, though. But he sounds—he's playing such great piano, too.

The Juggler

45:10Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next up is The Juggler. This is another Zono. I love this song.

45:20This is— This always reminded me of Bartok when I first heard it. Ooh, dynamics.

46:03Wayne on soprano.

46:18Such a cool idea.

46:22This is an epic vibe, right? This is a high-level shaker work. Yeah, man.

46:39That melody— That's gutsy to play after Wayne Shore on sopranos playing a melody. He pulls it off. The percussion's recorded really well, this record.

47:10Hey, come on! Come on! Come on! Woo!

47:37Folk music of the future. Okay, Paul. Ah! How you doing? Oh, yeah, I'm really glad. I'm really good friends. Wow! Wow! I'm really good friends. I'm really good friends. Yeah, I'm really good friends. Look at the psychology of the progression of the future. Those are really nice and incredible stories. I've been a good the most... ...and I'm really good. And I'm really good friends! I've been very good friends, right?

48:08And I'm really good friends. I'm really good friends. This has the feel of being through-composed. Well, is it? Yes. I mean, that's kind of their thing, right? A remark you made is like, if you can go search and find the lead sheet for that, it's wild, man. That's, I think, Weather Report's strongest gear is like these semi or truly through-composed pieces.

48:38Or they come off, at least they come off that way. Or they come off that way, but it's really, they're very special and it's got to be hard to put together. Like, these are so intricate. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's such a, it takes you on a journey. It's got an epic feel to it. It's very cinematic. It's very atmospheric. Cinematic is great. It's like, I mean, this could have been like the greatest, like, gaming music ever. Could you imagine going to different parts of that on a quest, right? Like, it's a story. It really is. I mean, it feels like it could be like, this song could be on the Blade Runner soundtrack. Back in 1980.

49:09Yeah. This could be great movie. I mean, high-level movie music. Yeah, for sure. I think, um. 1980. I got one for you. I got a question for you. Okay, what do you got? Which has aged better?

49:21Wayne's Soprano sound on The Juggler or Birdland as a composition? Birdland. No, of course. Of course it's Wayne's Soprano sound. So that's my thing with this record. Like, this is, I have to say this, this is a little bit of an uneven record because the highs are so high. I mean, for, I'm not even gonna say for Fusion, for 70s, to me, this is 70s jazz in the same way that Headhunters, the same way that Secret, the same way that M1 Dishi, you know, like this. But I don't agree that it's an uneven record. I do agree that Birdland is the weakest track, but the rest of the album,

49:53every track is pretty amazing. Yeah. I think. But I just think that, but we're talking about some sound issues. We're talking about, you know, just a little bit. But that's a preference. I'm sure people love the way, some people love the way this sounds. Right, but because there's such high, I mean, some of the greatest synthesizer, at least single line synthesizer, I would say, on any record ever. Polyphony synthesizer. And poly, yeah, of course. But I'm saying, like, specifically, like the phrase, like, literally best in class. Yeah. Best in class soprano sax playing. 100%. Drumming is often, by the way. And Birdland. So that's uneven. Because the high, like- Alex Acuna's playing is underrated.

50:23Absolutely. Bro is thrashing. And we're, we're, we're, we're burying the lead. A gentleman by the name of Jaco Pastorius. Jaco Pastorius. Some of his best playing. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And composition. So that's what I'm saying. Like, the highs are so high. So to me, the lows. Right, that's what I mean. It's, it's fine. It's just, it wouldn't be as much. I see your shoulder twitching. I see my, my, my, my, jorts. Slipping on my jorts. Jorts. We joke because we love. Okay, the record goes out.

Havona

50:53I always thought the name of this, Sumi, I got this wrong, was Havana. It's not. It's Havona. Havona, no, no, no, no. No, maybe. It's Havona, yeah. Havona. It's a Jaco Pastorius composition. A lot of people like to play this song. Yeah. It's a badass. Woo. Epic.

51:13Oh, here's another one to slide right into the time.

51:19Woo.

51:22So killing. Immediately hitting at the double time. Oh, when he goes up to this major seventh.

51:31Joe right here.

51:33Oh. Oh. Man, the drums are way down in the mix. Oh. The bass player tune.

52:10Simple, beautiful melody. All the action's on the bass. But bass players love this album. Yeah. For good reason.

52:17This and the Jaco. Christian B. Ryan loves this record. I'm going to tell you my Christian story about this. The Jaco Pastorius self-titled bass players. Yeah, of course. We should do that at some point. That's a great album. Was that before this? Oh.

52:30Man, this is a killer solo air. This is another gear for Zabba.

52:46What a player, man. Jacked up piano sound.

52:53Sounds like it was recorded through a telephone. Yeah. Yeah.

53:01Ooh, all those slides.

53:18Yeah.

53:28The piano. Piano mic. Somebody called. This is an actual.

53:36This is an actual microphone that our engineer, Sam, sometimes likes to use. That's what the piano sounds like out here. A little bit, yeah.

53:43Killer bass sound.

53:46Oh.

53:50Oh, my God. How many gigs have you been on with a bass player? So I'm trying to play like this.

53:57Hey. Come on.

54:00Joe's pads.

54:06Damn.

54:09Hey. Woo.

54:13Wee. Nice. Yeah. The lack of backbeat on this, but then, uh, sort of pattern. Yeah, this is a great, it's a great ending to the record.

55:03And it's, so I remember playing. Did you, have you played any of these tunes before? Yeah, of course. Birdland? No, no, yeah, yeah. The only time I have, I did a tour in like, uh, 2000-ish, maybe even 99. Um, I subbed for Jeff Kieser on a little tour with the Christian McBride band, CMB at the time. You remember when it was Tarion Gulley? Totally. Uh, Ron Blake. Great band. One of the best quartets. I came in, and they were playing a lot of this music. So we definitely played a remarking maid, um, Harlequin, Palladium, The Juggler, and Havana.

55:33We did not play, um, Birdland, by the way. Or Teen Town. We did not, which is crazy because of McBride. I mean, we might have, I don't, I don't ever remember playing that. I mean, I know McBride knows all that stuff. Sure. But McBride has these awesome charts, not that real, new book, real book crap with, that's 94% accurate. Yeah. He had like, you talk about intricate charts, multiple pages for all these. Yeah. And that's where I learned most of this music. Oh, that's great. And it was so fun. The only problem was, at least the gig I remember in particular, we were playing at, um, the Jazz Showcase in Chicago, right up 55 from here, 300 miles north.

56:06Joe Siegel, shout out, RIP Joe Siegel. It used to be called the Joe Siegel's Jazz Showcase. Joe Siegel was an amazing jazz club impersonator. I just realized this thing is shedding little, um. Well, that's why it's taped up a bunch, Peter. That's why it's taped up. Um, uh, production, we have a problem. He's holding up a phone. Thank you. Shout out to our audio listeners. Uh, but we played Joe Siegel, famously, he hated fusion music. Oh, excellent.

56:35So it was uncomfortable. And Joe used to, um, always be at the front of the club when you'd come in. Like he would greet people and come in. And when we came in, he made it like the whole run we were there for those like five or six days. I think we did like six. This is back when you used to do like full runs. We were playing all this music and some other stuff. Um, the Christian, I mean, he was playing mostly electric. It was, I mean, it was jazz, but it was whatever. It was this kind of stuff. Um, he had headphones on, big headphones the entire time we were playing. And he claimed he was a big Cubs fan.

57:07Okay. You know, in Chicago. Okay. Because he loves triple A baseball. Oh, he got scared. He got scared. Anyway, just, just kidding. Um, I don't have my Cardinals head on. Okay. We can't say that anymore. We can't say that anymore. No, but he was, he would listen to the Cubs games. I was like, wow, they're playing always while we were playing, but he wouldn't listen to what we were playing. But I thought we were killing the crowd. Like did Christian? Cubs must have been winning.

Newsletter and wrap up

57:32Yeah.

Newsletter and wrap up

57:33Uh, Hey Peter. Yeah. Remember when we got that Herbie Hancock flexi disc in the mail? I am still thinking about that. That flexi disc. Oh, that was such a flex. Yeah. It's from a 1974 copy of Downbeat Magazine where Herbie plays a bit of actual proof. Herbie Hancock? Yes. Before it was even actual proof. Well, you know, we recorded the whole thing and we're sharing it for free with all of our newsletter subscribers. Sign up at You'll Hear It. Shh. Don't tell them where. No, I gotta tell them where. It's a private newsletter. Sign up at You'llHearIt.com slash newsletter to hear it for yourself.

58:04That's You'llHearIt.com slash newsletter and you're going to get a newsletter from us every single week. Awesome. Uh, categories, Peter. Categories. All right. Let's do this. What is your Apex Moment slash Desert Island track? What do you think? Desert? I mean, I think it's a remark you made, um, for the track. And I mean, for the moment there was, I made a note somewhere here. Oh, on Harlequin, there's a, can we maybe play, would that be hard if you got to around 130, 140 on that? Yeah, it's going to be impossible. There's all these little cool lines, but there's one in particular that Zavino plays.

58:38Just a bunch of cool little easy piano stuff for him. Little riffs.

58:50Yeah. Oh, each one is perfect. But I'm going to show you one. That's great.

59:08This one.

59:11That's an actual song.

59:15That one, man. To me, that's just like, you know. It's such a cool bluesy, like, just like very overt. And then when he plays after it, like, it's kind of the peak of these cool little counter melodies that he's playing in between his own synth sounds and the bass stuff. So my, I mean, there's a bunch of Apex moments on this record. My Desert Island track is Teentown and is Teentown. And my Apex moment is Jocko's entrance on the bass on Teentown. Oh, yeah.

59:46It takes a while when we come in.

59:54I will never forget the first time I heard that. I was like, I didn't know you could do that. I know. I had no idea a bass player could do that. I didn't know you were allowed to do that in music. Right. I didn't know. It was so, so mind-blowing. That's awesome. And I still love that. Quibble Bits, we already talked about, you know, my quibble is with a little bit of the production, I wish there was a little bit less of that reverb on it, except on Teentown, which I think it really works on. But I think most everything else- Because the bass is dialed in, especially on that. And it's also very sparse. It's just, it's the drums and it's the bass and there's some, like some textures from Wayne and Joe, but accoutrements, what do you got?

1:00:27I can't do my quibble bit? Oh, sorry. What was your quibble bit? Birdland. Of course. Okay. Accoutrements. I have a four. I'm not a fan. You know what? I have this record at home and I apologize. I could not put my hands on it. You wear your hat.

1:00:41Exactly. Yeah. I don't know if I'd go as low as four, but it's just fine. Seven, six. It's fine. Well, wait, which is it, Peter? Well, it's not four. I mean, four is like, we've never gone as low as four, have we? For accoutrements? I've never. I mean, it's okay. It's a hat that's got a thunderstorm coming out of it and there's- Oh, it is just like my hat. It is just like your hat. Oh, I forgot that. Yeah. And it's over a city. I don't know. Yeah. It's one of those ones. This has been, did we talk? Oh yeah, we talked about it. This is a big, this is one of like the top five selling jazz records of all time. It is. I believe it's kind of blue is first actually.

1:01:13Now this is, if you're, this is not counting like Nora Jones and Kenny G. Sure. Shout out. Sure, sure, sure. But kind of blue, let me see if I get this right. What would number two be? I don't know. Headhunters? I think so. Either two or three. So yeah. So top five is Headhunters, Time Out, which I believe is number five. Oh, interesting. But this is number four. So there's one else that we're not thinking of. As far as over a million, you know, like, you know, over a million. That, that, you'd think there'd be more of that, but there's not a lot of that. But yeah, Headhunters for sure.

1:01:45Um, is this Weather Report's best album? That's our new category. No. No. It's very good though, but it's, it's no, it's clearly not. Yeah. I think Mysterious Traveler is probably. That's my favorite. Which we should do. We should do it again. Snobometer. Snobometer. I mean, this is two, right? No. This is five. No. What? Okay. The Snobometer is broken. I know other people have said that, but it's, hello, Snobometer. How is it a two? I mean, I know Birdland was a popular song.

1:02:15This is.

1:02:17Okay. I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. I mean. It's just, we've gotten, here's the thing, Peter. The show has changed. We're talking about, we're talking about bad and thriller in the mix. You know what I mean? Like this compared to thriller, this is an eight compared to thriller. But that's not what the, that's not what we're comparing it to. Do I have to remind you about the Snobometer? Number one, Aunt Linda. Number 10, Ethan Iverson. Right. Number five, Allen Iverson. Okay. So there you go. Okay. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll concede. What do you have up next? I have Herbie Hancock's 1976 masterpiece, Secrets.

1:02:50That was a year before. This is because we, I know, but we kept talking about it and I would love to hear it now. Well, I like doing stuff from this year. I'm going to go Herbie Hancock VSOP, the original one. Okay. Good one. That's, that's a great record. I love that record. Double, double album. But Asia came out the same year too. Asia's pretty good. Should we do an Asia show? We should do a, um, a Re-Asia? Nightwalker.

1:03:10Nightfly? Nighttalker. We should do the Nightfly? You heard it here, folks. Don't say it. Peter wants to do the Nightfly. Don't say it. Don't say it. Peter wants to do the Nightfly. This is awesome, man. Do we have any other, um, housekeeping to do? That's all we got. Okay. Well, until next time. You'll hear it.

1:03:36We'll see you next time.

1:04:06Bye-bye.

1:04:36Bye-bye.

1:05:06Bye-bye.