The Lotus Eaters Episode 3: The Halfway House to Humanity [unlocked]

Introduction to the Odyssey series

0:00Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of The Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to drop,

0:30but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content, and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

0:57Welcome to either.

Translating the opening lines

1:27Welcome to The Complicated Men, a podcast on Homer's Odyssey. What do you like? Yeah, I kind of like The Complicated Men, but... I just don't love saying it. I think I like the idea. So that is a reference to Emily Wilson's choice for the opening lines of The Odyssey. What you do for that is something that everybody's going to talk about and carp about, shows that.

2:01What are some of the other ones? There was Speak Memory of the Man of Many Ways, Sing, O Goddess, the Story of the Resourceful Man, Man of Twists and Turns. Yeah. The Man, So Various, So Wise. Really what we should go with is Politropon. Politropon. Yeah. The original. Which I think does mean like many-sided, many faces. And in that sense, I think, yeah, complicated does seem a little bit boring, but the other ones maybe take like an interpretation on what it is.

2:35Although Emily Wilson's wokeness might mean that she's actually being disparaging, like, oh, so complicated. You know, people have said that, you know, her, Odysseus, you know, underplays how much of a glorious hero he is. And, you know, these two books where we first meet him, it's like he's constantly crying, but that's just how it is. That's not her translation. Like, it's just more you had a different idea about how Odysseus is presented in the Odyssey. Well, I'm excited that we finally get to meet him.

3:06Yeah, we finally do. It's like, what the fuck? It's the Odyssey, you know?

Odysseus on Ogygia

3:09So, we are going to be doing today books five and six, where we first meet Odysseus on the island of Ogygia, and then he is allowed to sail back to another island, the Phaeitian island, where he will need to ask them for a safe passage home. Before we get into the plot, I was kind of wondering what your impressions were of these two books, and then also, like, do you think there is any themes that are coalescing from them?

3:44Yeah. What you said, like, you know, Odysseus is crying and forlorn, and you really get, like, a sense that I just, I guess, never had before reading this, that he's presented as this, like, guy who's just shit on. It's like a very Job kind of description of his life, where he's a lot of, woe is me, woe is my life, like, I'm going to, fine, if I'm going to die, like, just do it. Just get it over with. The gods have shit on me left and right. Yeah. And then the last thing that really stuck out at me was something that was present earlier,

4:14which is, it's kind of funny how Zeus takes the fall for everything. Like, he gets blamed for everything. And he's just like, Zeus is like, eh, all right, like, we'll help him out. Like, he's not really doing anything. Yeah, well, this is something he complained about. We talked about it last episode as well, that sometimes they're right to blame him, but he's also right that sometimes they just use him as an excuse for, you know, their own failings. And it's funny because, like, that's Odysseus's perspective, like you said.

4:46But from Athena's perspective, no, things are going good. Like, this is part of this plan we learn. This is going according to her plan, Zeus says at the beginning. And then when Poseidon finds out, he's, like, pissed. He's like, oh, my God, this guy, you know, we've been too easy on him. I wanted to ask you that. So the reader wouldn't know at this point why Poseidon is pissed, right? Right, although probably people who originally would hear this know that story. Probably, you know, if they haven't heard it before in the same way that you probably do.

5:18Right, but it's not, like, revealed yet. No, that's right. It's been revealed that Poseidon has a grudge against him. And, no, they might have even said for blinding his son. He should have given his son more than one eye is what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I agree. And, like, I think Odysseus is, like, these years of being, like, a sex slave. For Calypso have taken their toll just on, like, what do you make of his mindset? It's so funny because it's, like, tragic. Like, he's obviously depressed. And then they're, like, okay, she agrees to let him go.

5:50And they have one more night of, like, wonderful lovemaking. Yeah, break up sex. So I don't know how sad. Like, you know, it sounds like he was excited at night and then sad in the morning. But he does, yeah, I mean, he just spends the days weeping. And he's also, again, he has reason for this. But he's also very paranoid. Like, he doesn't trust when the gods are trying to genuinely help him because he feels like a Job-like figure at this point. And he has no real trust in that.

6:21But there's some confusing things about, like, what role destiny plays, what roles the gods have played that I'd like to talk about.

Earthly and celestial paradises

6:29So here's my—I had to lecture on the second half of the Phaeitian adventures. But I came to think of the Phaeitians this way. And then now I'm kind of noticing also that book five on Ogigia with Calypso also fits this general pattern to some degree. There are these two islands, right? And they're both kind of different versions of, like, an Eden, like a paradise. There's, like, a celestial version of that with Calypso and Ogigia and, like, all the nymphs and, you know, the ambrosia.

7:04And there's an earthly kind of paradise. And if we don't get that now with the Phaeitians, we will. A kind of, like, earthly paradise, right? Now, like, Odysseus doesn't have much interest in the celestial god version of this paradise. You know, he's pretty tactful. But it seems like in spite of the sex at night, he wants to go home and has for maybe not the whole time, but for a while.

7:35He's been there for seven years. I think the Phaeitians, though, give him, like, a glimpse and give us a glimpse into, like, a genuine alternate reality, one that could easily have happened. Because Odysseus didn't have to go to war, right? Like, he didn't owe anything to Agamemnon and Menelaus. That was a choice that he made that all the kings made. But he could have stayed home, right? And so I think, like, the Phaeitians represent kind of a world where what if instead of going out to try to make his name and his glory, he had chosen to stay home, stay with his kingdom?

8:12Because we haven't seen that. We've seen two examples of kings who did go off to war with Nestor and Menelaus. Nestor is probably best case scenario for this. But Menelaus, it's complicated, as he says. Like, he didn't even know if he wanted to leave, if he should have. But Odysseus, like, feels like he's the worst possible case. Because, like, he's Schrodinger's Odysseus. He's neither alive or dead. Like, he's like you said in the last episode, which we just put out. He's like an idea, right? And he's a shell of himself.

8:43And then, you know, you also remember that Ithaca is doing very poorly now, too, right? And so it's not just Odysseus that has to bear the consequences of that choice. It's Ithaca, too. So I think, like, what the Phaeitians do is give a glimpse into a society where the king stays home, everybody stays home. And I found that, like, a helpful way of kind of understanding, like, a lot of the weird details of the Phaeitians. Because while it is a paradise-like place, it's also there's something a little creepy about it, too.

9:18Oh, yeah. I haven't gotten that yet. Yeah. Like, I haven't gotten this sense of creepiness. But, yeah, it is kind of interesting that there are these two options that are kind of clearly presented to him. Even Nausicaa is like, I would marry you right now if you would stay. Only if, like, someone like this would stay on the island, right? And same with Calypso. And neither of those things, he just wants to get back to Ithaca, which is not a paradise, but it could have been maybe if he had stayed. Yeah. It's amazing how much Penelope has a pull on him, you know?

9:49I hope she's good to him when he finally makes it home. But he's just, like, for 10 years weeping. Like, he's clearly—and this goes back to, like, the sort of Schrodinger's Odysseus, where he has not been able to let go either. Right? It's so interesting how, at the beginning, Athena's like, look, everybody's forgotten him. But maybe Ithaca has kind of forgotten him. He has not moved on at all, right? Like, for 10 years he's been just dreaming of being home. But not knowing whether anybody even remembers him. Yeah. It's like what I always feel when you leave your dog at a boarding place.

10:23Like, they don't know if they're ever going to see us again, you know? I left for one week, and I came back, and my daughter wasn't even speaking Spanish anymore. I was like, what the hell?

10:32I feel like I'm two weeks away from my kids forgetting me. Yeah. But, yeah, like, Zeus—so this is one of the first things where, yeah, she's complaining that everyone's forgotten him. And Zeus is like, oh, come on. Did you not plan all this yourself so that Odysseus could come home, take revenge upon the suitors? This was all your idea. Is the accusation that the whole thing, like getting trapped on Calypso's Island? Yeah. This is one of the weird things. I don't know. We do hear that Athena was the original one who got mad, and that's what originally sent Odysseus off course to being home.

11:08Because of that little affair with little Ajax raping Cassandra in Athena's temple. But we don't know, like, if she had any details. But there's this, did you not plan all of this yourself from Zeus to say? And then there's the thing Poseidon says, like, the gods have changed their mind. Do you remember that when he first sees Odysseus on the ship? He shook his head and told himself, this is outrageous. So it seems the gods have changed their plans about Odysseus while I was absent. He has almost reached Phaecia, where it is his destiny, to flee the rope of pain that binds him now.

11:43But I will goad him to more misery till he is sick of it. Yeah. The gods have changed their mind about the situation. It sounds like they had an agreement. Yeah. And now they're changing it. And he wasn't alerted about that. I don't totally get how this works in terms of, like, who planned what. You know, but he also says, like, it's your destiny, though, to get home. So he knows that there is this ultimate destiny, Poseidon. The thing that's so interesting to me in a text like this is that we get all the detailed conversations with the gods.

12:16So we know what they're thinking in a way that you don't know in the Hebrew Bible, for instance. You have no idea, really. You get, like, little hints here and there. But here it's just all laid out. Like, we know when humans are wrong to attribute something to them or not. We know what they're doing behind each other's backs. But it's still not, like, a really easy thing to figure out, either, just because you can't totally trust them. You get a lot of conflicting reports. Yeah. I mean, as Odysseus says to Calypso, like, I don't know. You tell me that we're going, that I could build a raft.

12:48But, like, this just might be another one of your tricks. And she doesn't disagree. She's like, yeah, you know how this works, man. But no, no, I promise. Yeah.

Godly politics and Calypso's double standard

12:56So, yeah, we meet him. He's, like, weeping on the shores. He's repeatedly referred to as the unhappiest man alive. I like the kind of mid-level God politics, like, Calypso being pissed and the sexual politics of it's like, oh, just because I, you know, like, when a woman is with a mortal man, you get all pissed. But you guys can fuck all the mortal women that you want. Yeah. Jealous God. Yeah, right. She's like, I saved him. Like, now you're trying to save him and you're, like, somehow, like, taking him away from me.

13:29But the accusation of, like, the female gods not being able to fuck the same way is hilarious. He says, you bear a grudge whenever any goddess takes a man to sleep with as a lover in her bed. And then she gives a bunch of examples of, you know, that's a double standard. It's funny that they have this, like, sexual double standard that she's complaining about. And I like also that Hermes is, like, doesn't really want to do this. And he's, like, like, he kind of resents being the errand boy. Yeah. And, like, especially because he had to, like, swim or whatever. Yeah.

13:59And there's nobody to sacrifice anything. And it's, like, what the fuck am I to do, like? It's, like, he's just kind of grumbling the whole time. And he's just, like, very businesslike with Odysseus and Calypso. Yeah. Are we to understand that, like, if Odysseus were to choose to stay with Calypso, that he would, like, be kind of immortal? Yeah. No, I think not kind of. Just. Like, actually immortal. Straight up immortal. That's what Calypso at least claims that she wanted. So that's what I mean about, like, there is a, like, godly alternative that is being rejected here.

14:35But there is also a window into an earthly alternative that could have happened. But, yeah, he could stay there forever. But it's so isolated. Like, he would just never see anybody. Never mind his family. He would just never see anyone, period. Yeah. I love how catty she is to Penelope. She's, like, tell me I'm hotter. Yeah. You know I'm hotter, right? You would stay here with me and be immortal. Though you might still wish to see that wife you always pine for. And anyway, I know my body is better than hers is.

15:07I'm taller, too. Mortals can never rival the immortals in beauty. And, like, here Odysseus is being kind of tagged. This is a delicate situation. Yeah. So, and he says, I know my modest wife, Penelope, could never match your beauty. She's a human. You're deathless, ageless. But every day I want to go back home. Yeah. The way that the humans have to be around the gods is, like, they're walking on eggshells. So this is one of the reasons why landing on the Phoecian shore and seeing actual human beings felt like such a relief when I was reading it, too.

15:42Because it's not just that it's like a paradise or whatever. It's also just that, like, these are people that I can relate to. These are people who I don't have to, like, worry that much about their, you know, the godly wrath and what's going on. You know, and often you just get caught up in one of their rivalries. Yeah. You know, did you want to say anything about him building the boat? I could see you kind of geeking out about that. It was cool. My first thought was, like, you know, you're a god, though. Can't you, like, help him out with this?

16:13Like, does he really need to do this all on his own? But I think he does, because, like, he needs to build himself back up a little bit and, like, kind of MacGyver himself. A boat is, like, I think a good way for him to do it. And then, like, the trip for the first, like, 18 days seems great. And I bet that's going to be so beautiful under the stars. Watching the Pleiades. Yeah. But then, yeah, Poseidon. Returning from the Ethiopians. What was he doing there?

16:43Among the Ethiopians? What was he, fucking with them? And pausing on Mount Selema, Poseidon, master of earthquakes, which I didn't know was a moniker for him, saw the distant raft and raged. He shook him. And that's the part we were talking about earlier. And then he gives this speech.

Shipwreck and the survival instinct

16:59Once, you know, Poseidon makes it like he's going to die now at sea, he says, more pain, how will it end? And then he starts talking about the people who died at Troy. And he says, those Greeks were lucky three and four times over who died upon the plain of Troy to help the sons of Atreus. I wish I had died that same day the mass of Trojans hurled their bronze-tipped spears at me around the corpse of Peleus' son, which is Achilles. I would have had a funeral and honor from the Greeks, but now I have to die this cruel death.

17:33Like, that's a big thing. Like, if you don't get a proper burial, it's like you're going to be forgotten, you know, or at least that's how he thinks. To die like Achilles, he's saying, I wish I had just done that, and then I would be honored. And this is an interesting little passage, first to just get a sense of his state of mind as Schrodinger's Odysseus, like how that seems to him to be the worst possible fate, being neither alive nor dead. But it's also interesting because he's going to meet Achilles in the underworld. Achilles will kind of give the opposite message back to him.

18:06Yeah, it just also just reads of survivor's guilt to, like, everybody that I left dead. And now I'm in like a kind of shell of a man, but I have life. It's almost like rejecting the gift of life because you don't deserve it. Yeah, but I don't think he feels guilty, though, but maybe. That's an interesting way to look at it. But, like, I think, like, just because he's in such a self-pity, woe-is-me mode, like, I think he genuinely is jealous of them. And they should have death guilt is basically what he's saying.

18:38So, yeah, he gets some help from Eno. I like the kind of mid-tier gods that we hear about, the white goddess. They keep the world going round, you know? Like, they can't just be in Olympus all day long getting their grapes. Exactly. And, yeah, he's very paranoid. You know, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that somebody isn't really out to get you. Because he is paranoid, but also sometimes they are out to get him. But not in the case of Eno. And Eno is able to tell him how to get to shore.

19:12Right. And Athena steps in and, like, dives down the winds. Yeah. Which is interesting. When she chooses to intervene and when she doesn't is definitely an interesting thing. Like, sometimes she really does allow him to fend for himself. And finally, he hits land and there's a few of these kind of famous Homeric similes. Here's an example of that. As when a father lies sick and weak for many days, tormented by some cruel spirit, till at last the gods restore him back to life, his children feel great joy.

19:44Odysseus felt the same joy when he saw land. So it's like, and you can relate to this all too well, yeah. Like, when you're really sick and then when you finally get better, how you feel. Like, that first couple days, it's just like, yeah. You really can feel the relief the way that this is told. Yeah. And then when he's concealed in the leaves naked. As when a man who lives out on a lonely farm that has no neighbors buries a glowing torch inside black embers to save the seed of the fire and keep a source, so Odysseus was concealed

20:18in the leaves. So he's like that little ember that you can come back to and start the fire again. Like, they're really good, these things. Yeah. I just love that imagery too. Just like, and Athena lets sleep come over him. And it's like, for the first time, he sleeps. Yeah. A sleep of like freedom, you know? Yeah. Like, it doesn't even matter what happens next. I mean, it does, but you know what I mean? Like, he's touched land. Yeah. He's not sick anymore. Like, in this liminal kind of transition world between being a god and being a man.

20:50Like, no, he's an earthly guy with like human parents, human grandparents. Right. I love how then book six starts just right down to like normal human stuff.

Meeting Nausicaa on the shore

21:01Like, somebody has to do their laundry. Like, yeah, and it's, but it's, you know, it's the princess, the lovely Nausicaa. Yeah. It is fairy tale-y. It's very fairy tale. But it really feels like the opening of a Disney, like, princess, you know? And then you go right into like the, she has to get dressed. I love the thing with her dad, like the delicate little conversation they have. It is very much The Little Mermaid. Do you remember The Little Mermaid? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's exactly like a good description of the archetype that Nausicaa represents.

21:31Like, the little girl in a small town that dreams of like this big wide world. Yeah. That she would like to know, but really is kind of trapped on her own island. So, yeah. I really like the exchange with the father and the father getting that Nausicaa is thinking about marrying and, but doesn't want to say it. Right. Athena does another one of her, like, I'm going to be your friend, but it's a dream, but I'm going to come into your dream and tell you stuff and call you lazy.

22:03Yeah. It's great. The setup is like, she goes to the dream and says like, hey, you got to do your laundry tomorrow. This is all so that she'll find Odysseus. It's a nice little setup. Yeah. They're going to all these machinations. Like, isn't there like a more straightforward way to get it? But it's like, they're really like a cat playing with the mouse, these gods, the way that they're doing this. And I think that they, they will help the hero if they think the hero is worth it, like that they're doing their part. And if they're not, then, you know, like they'll hang back. So I think like part of their job is to build the character of the humans in the ways that,

22:39you know, they want. That's interesting. Is that like an explicit thing about the guy? Like, I always thought of them as being capricious and kind of cruel in their way, but like, is there a sense that they're trying to improve? Like, so, I mean, that's like a good question to keep in mind as we get into the book and we'll see the things Athena does and doesn't do for Odysseus. But there is a couple of times where that exact question is like made explicit. Yeah. Right. Because like, I think going into it, I would be just thinking, well, his character does improve, but that's because he's had to put up with this shit.

23:11Like in the same way that your character might improve at having to put up with anything. But I think like he's broken down on Calypso's Island. He's not like, oh, this has turned me into a lean ascetic like warrior. No, he's just like sobbing and crying and like hand shy of anyone like offering to help him that he thinks might actually be trying to do and yet another cock tease of being able to go home and instead he has to suffer for years and years.

23:41Because I do think the gods do this. They have these projects. Like I think Odysseus is a pet project to some degree of Athena's. But then also they kind of forget about them because as we said, like they're immortal. Right. I love the scene with Nausicaa and the girls because this is where it turns from Disney movie to like a porn scene that's a parody of a Disney movie. It says the girls brought out the laundry from the cart and brought it to the washing pools and trotted competing with each other.

24:14So they're just all in the, you know, splashing each other and bathing and rubbing themselves with all the world. And then it says, and then when they were gone, they spread the clothes along the shore. They bathed and rubbed themselves with olive oil. And then they sat at the river bank and ate and waited for the sun to dry the clothes. So you kind of think, yeah, it's like, good Lord. As I was reading this, I was like, oh God, please don't tell me that they were like 14. I think of her as 18. I like how they play ball.

24:46Like they know ball. Like they took off their headscarves to play ball. Yeah. They're ball knowers.

24:53But Nausicaa is the prettiest. So it's an awkward situation for Odysseus. And I think he handles this well. Yeah. His choosing not to touch her was a great, great choice. Yes. And the way he describes that. Yeah. I think Nausicaa has like a Dorothy quality to her, like, you know, Wizard of Oz, because she does kind of see this wide world, you know, somewhere over the rainbow. But it is inaccessible to her.

25:24Right. So the Phaeacians, they're not thought to be a real group of people. No. Yeah. But it says they used to live in Hyperia, but then they moved over to this island. Scaria, I think. Scaria. Scaria. Yeah. Scaria. And so they are kind of isolated because it's far away. Yeah. And they're well known for transporting people, places. They're seafaring. Yeah. They have like magical ships that can get people everywhere, like really fast. But they always come back. Interesting. You know, I was trying to see if there was anything, like the Phoenicians would have been a well-known seafaring people at the time.

26:00But they're mentioned later in the book as— The Phoenicians are actually— Yeah, the Phoenicians. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So it's another one of those mentor-mentees things. It's just hopeless to try to keep track of all this. And Odysseus is naked. He has to cover his— His man parts. Just as a mountain lion trusts its strength, and beaten by the rain and wind, its eyes burn bright as it attacks the cows or sheep or wild deer, and hunger dries on to dry the sturdy pens of sheep, so need-impelled Odysseus to come upon the girls with pretty hair, though he was naked.

26:38Like, these similes are good. Yeah. Like, I was trying to figure out what that means. Like, I understand it at least to be—he's just so drawn by other actual human beings at this point. Yeah. Like, despite being naked and the impropriety of the situation, like these are young girls potentially naked themselves. Yeah. He can't help himself. Like, he needs to reach out to them. Yeah, he's, like, starving to death, so he has to do something that, you know, it's like a last gasp effort, you know? Because this is a connection to humanity. It's a little bit off, you know, at least as I read them, but it's way closer to the human and to his, like, home and what he recognizes than Calypso's Island.

27:21And so, like, yeah, it's crazy to go up to 18-year-old girls naked, like, just this, like, savage, but, like, he has no other choice. Right. There is something specific about what the sense of relief, I think, is with other human beings. And it strikes me that it really is something, like, the psychology of other human beings is kind of predictable if you're a human being. And so, he understands the rules for how he should talk to them and, like, what he should do in a way that, like, he hasn't even worked those muscles before because you just can't relate to immortal gods in that same way.

27:53Yeah. You have no frame of reference, really, to understand. But this is, like, a human society, a normal set of human— Yeah, which is what allows him, even though he's a shell of himself right now, it's like riding a bike for him. Like, he does kind of know what to say. He goes back into his king. Yeah, he's a king. Like, he knows how to deal with it. He knows how to, like, be in, like, the most delicate situation imaginable and get them to still—even though the situation is totally inappropriate. So, yeah, like, he knows as much as anyone how inappropriate he is. But, like, the lion, like, this is it.

28:25And it's because it's, like, the earth. I think you're right. Like, that's a good way of thinking of it, that this is something that is, like, riding a bike for him. And it's not as unpredictable and random or, like, malevolent as the god realm. But also, I think his connection to humanity, like, earthly humanity, is more visceral. Like, and so it's, like, it's primal, his need to get there as well. Yeah. I'm just going to read a little bit of it because I found this passage to be so nice. So when he decides that the girl might be alarmed at being touched, he decides to speak to her without touching her.

29:01His words were calculated flattery. My lady, please, are you divine or human? If you are some great goddess from the sky, you look like Zeus's daughter Artemis. You're as tall and beautiful as she. But if you live on earth and are human, your mother and your father must be lucky, your brothers also. Lucky three times over. Their hearts must be delighted seeing you. Their flourishing new sprout. Maybe not 18. He's laying it on a little thick here, Odysseus, yeah. And that man, the flourishing new sprout, the dancer's leader, and that man will be luckiest by far who takes you home with dowry as his bride.

29:32And I feel like he's been able to spot which one of these is, like, the royal one, you know? Yeah. Like, he's addressing her and he's, like, letting that kingliness kick in. Royalty recognize royalty, you know? So, in this, like, opening speech to her, he concludes that with this passage. So may the gods grant all your heart's desires, a home, a husband, somebody like-minded. For nothing could be better than when two live in one house, their minds in harmony, husband and wife.

30:05Their enemies are jealous, their friends delighted, and they have great honor. That was beautiful. Like, that's just a beautiful way of saying it, you know? My brother just got married, and they wanted to do a reading during the ceremony. His wife really likes Greek mythology, so something from that. And I offered this, and so that was the reading, is that little passage. Oh, that's awesome, yeah. You know, did I tell you I officiated that, by the way? No. Yeah. What the hell? No. Yeah, I'm like a reverend. I did that once for a grad student of mine, and he got divorced a year later.

30:36Oh, shit. So both of us, both very bad wizards, like, can marry people. Reverend, reverend wizards. You did it with United Church, that same thing? I think so. I don't remember if it was a few years ago, but whatever was the most obvious online one. Yeah. So I think, like you were saying, he goes hard for Penelope. Like, I think this is, like, his description of why. Like, somebody like-minded, their mind's in harmony. And then the white-armed Nausicaa replies,

31:07Well, stranger, you seem a brave and clever man. You know that Zeus apportions happiness to people, to good and bad, each one as he decides. Your troubles come from him, and you must bear them. But since you have arrived here in our land, you will not lack for clothes or anything a person needs in times of desperation. Another Xenia. Yep. I will show you the town. The people here are called Phaeacians, and I am the daughter of the great king, Alcinnus. Is that- I sometimes say Alcinnus. It's like Kareem's original name. Lou Alcinnus. On whom depends the strength and power of our people.

31:38Yeah. So I think you get a little sense of the Phaeacians from what she says. So all the other girls, her friends, are like, whee! They're just kind of giggling and scared, and they're kind of running away. And then she says, Why are you running from this man? Do you believe he is an enemy? No living person ever born could come to our Phaeacia with a hostile mind, since we are much beloved by the gods. Our island is remote, washed round by sea. We have no human contact. This is what I mean, where it's not quite to humanity yet.

32:09We have no human contact, but this man is lost, poor thing. We must look after him. All foreigners and beggars come from Zeus. Any act of kindness is a blessing. So you really get a sense of, like, of where they are from this. And then, okay, so there's one other passage to this effect where she says, I hope I get a man like this as a husband, a man that lives here and would like to stay. You know, that's not normal that, like, usually the queens will go off and live on the island of the king,

32:41but that's clearly not an option. That's why I think the Little Mermaid is the perfect example. It's like, ultimately, she's supposed to stay under the sea. Right. And it is, like, kind of cool that whatever young 18-year-old Nausicaa is, like, also so eloquent. Yes. And, like, she kicks in, like, her hospitality. The good breeding shows. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So one thing that's kind of interesting about her instructions, well, first of all, you get a sense of, like, the guys in town.

33:13Yeah. Gotta be salty. Who's this motherfucker? You know, like, you know, the new kid from New York comes to the small town, like, and now the prettiest girl in school is, like, and they're like, who's this motherfucker? Kick his ass. Trying to get at her for years. Yeah. What she says to him is, yes, my father, he's the king, the great glorious king. Walk right by him. Go to my mom, Arete, and if you can get her on your side, then you're good. That was fascinating to me. Yeah. Go straight to her.

33:43And what does she say? Like, hug her legs? Yeah. She says, my father has a throne next to hers. He sits and sips his wine, just like I god. But pass him by. Embrace my mother's knees to supplicate. If you do this, you quickly will reach your home, however far it is in happiness. If she's good to you and looks upon you kindly in her heart, you can be sure about getting to your house, back to your family and native land. I don't know what to make of that. Like, the implication is, like, she really runs things, you know?

34:14Yeah, right. She's the guy behind the guy. The matriarch. Yet another maybe uncanny. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. This place is the halfway house to humanity, you know? That's a great way of describing it. I also think it's, like, a good example of the way they all meet each other and the way they kind of interbreed and travel. Like, if you don't do that, this is what you get. But if you do do that, if you do, like, venture out in search of wealth and adventure and glory, like, you can get fucked, too.

34:47You can get killed or you can get in this, like, purgatory between death and life and gods and mortals. So be careful out there. Yeah. The human condition. We didn't talk about this earlier, but it's, like, at the beginning, Zeus is, like, okay, and when I bring him back, like, I'm going to give him all this treasure, like, even more than he would have had coming straight back from Troy. Yeah. It's, like, I'll make it up to him. But it's, like, they don't get that the most precious thing is actually getting to live your life, you know? Yeah. It's just like, Joe, when he's, like, oh, don't worry, I'll give him double, like, even though his kids are dead.

35:21Totally. Right. I think, right, it's because they don't understand, like, opportunity costs for, like, time, you know? Right. And so this ends with, like, there's a sanctuary to Athena there on that island.

Looking ahead to the Phaeacians

35:34Yeah.

Looking ahead to the Phaeacians

35:35And Odysseus goes and he prays to her. Like, this is just random. But I was thinking to myself, like, yeah, how much of the Greek, like, how much of them all knew of the same gods? And, like, could you just count on and you land on an island and they're going to have, like, a temple to Athena? Well, so the next two books are just him on Phoecian Island trying to negotiate a deal for him to get home. But then after that he's going to tell about his adventures and, you know, one of the most famous ones is him going to the Cyclops Island.

36:05Yeah. And one of the reasons he wants to go there is because he's heard they don't, like, follow the rules like everybody else. And he's so curious about that. And specifically, they don't follow the Zinnia rules he's heard. And so he wants to go test that out. This is a flashback story? Yeah. So the books 9 through 12 are a flashback, like, previously in Odysseus' life, starting from the end of the Trojan War and going to where we meet him in book 5.

36:37Those four books are the stories. And it's wild. That's where he goes to the Land of the Dead, the Cyclops, the Sirens, all the shit that you've heard of pretty much takes place in those books. Yeah. Yeah, cool. Excited. Yeah. All right. Any final thoughts on this episode? No. Like I said, it was too short. I'm eager to read more. And now I'm fascinated by the Phoecians. Yeah. Now, like, I want to... You can definitely just read it and not, like, pay any attention to, like, the little details that are kind of off about them.

37:08Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. All right. Maybe the last thing is, when he prays to Athena, she says, Athena heard him but did not yet appear to him, respecting her own uncle in his fury against Odysseus till he reached home. It's like, yes, sometimes you respect him. And it's like politics. It is like, okay, like, we can piss him off but not too much. And sometimes my interpretation of fate is that it is just this very, like, tenuous compromise among all the different competing interests of the gods.

37:41And it gives them some kind of way of negotiating that, getting past their own, you know. That's what you, like, I think you even started our whole discussion of, you know, episode one, talking about what is this relationship between fate and the will of the gods. Yeah. And, like, that's just, to me, what's, like, the central puzzle in trying to understand what's going on. And, like, I'm very curious. I know it's not the point of the book, but it's just, like, are they saying fate as just whatever I do must have been fate?

38:11But obviously not, right? Sometimes because they're respecting some that, you know. Yeah, like, Poseidon says where it's his destiny to get shipped back to Ithaca if he gets to the Phaeitians. So that he seems to accept. But then he's also pissed that he's here at all. So maybe he wanted him to have to stay longer. Or maybe he thought, I could get away with this. If they just forget about him a little bit more, then I'll win. I don't know. So, yeah. There's one point in the Iliad where Zeus actually goes to, like, a scale.

38:45Like, some cosmic scale where fates are supposed to be decided and gets information. So a little minority report, like. And now he's like, all right, I guess we got to do this, you know. But that's the only time they really literalize this stuff. Usually it's just people making illusions. And you have to put together what is real about that, what isn't, what is metaphorical. At some point we should talk about, like, more metaphorical readings of the gods.

39:15Yeah. I mean, the end of the whole story. Like, you can't help but think of, obviously we did a whole episode on the hero's journey. And this is, like, the hero's journey quintessentially. But it's, like, even when we were talking about Odysseus being broken down, it's, like, this is the kind of thing that is just, like, a common way of describing your own psychological journey. Like, you have to be broken down in order to grow. Like, the shipwreck metaphor where, you know. Yeah, it's not clear that you had to be broken down maybe as much as Odysseus was.

39:46But maybe he did in order to truly get home. You know, like, that's a really key question, I think. So. And what is home, Tamler? What is home? This is, you know, like, a huge, obvious inspiration on Twin Peaks The Return, which, of course, ends in Odessa. Ah. Odessa, Texas. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about Odessa being the Odyssey. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And he's taking Laura home. Yeah. So, yeah.

40:18Spoiler alert. It's funny how they just don't care about spoilers in this text. It's just, like, that concept doesn't exist. And we could obsess about the fate, the details of the metaphysics of that. But you don't get the sense that they obsess about the details, just, like, what the practical consequences are for them. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said about the spoilers, like, everybody knows the story by the time. Yeah, by the time they hear it, I think that's right. Yeah. All right.

40:48Well, that'll do it for books five and six. Next two books describe the remainder of his time, or almost all the remainder of his time, with the Phaeacians. So, join us next time on either The Complicated Men or The Zeniators.

41:13We'll be right back.

41:43We'll be right back.