Bomber Down: Part Four

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0:36felix bunnell here producer and host of unsolved histories this is the fourth and final part of our series focused on meal 8-8 a b-52 bomber that disappeared on a training mission over the gulf of mexico in february 1968 in this episode we spend some quality time with volunteer sean murphy and with derek abbey ceo of project recover we also meet the wife of captain thomas childs one of the missing men who was aboard the plane when it vanished this is the last episode of bomber

1:06down for now but we do plan to cover the upcoming search until then here's bomber down part four what are the chances of them finding the meal 88 to be very frank with you i'd give it 95 to 100 this is sean murphy he's an amateur historian researcher who spends a lot of time searching for missing aircraft and seagoing vessels we first met him in season one of unsolved histories what happened to flight 293 why are you so confident because i do believe his research

1:41is that accurate knowing where their last call and what they would be doing only limits the area of where they would have disappeared sean is referring to cliff sholin's research into the final moments of meal 88 that's the call sign for the b-52 bomber that disappeared during a training mission over the gulf of mexico in 1968 because number one if let's and this is from

2:16talking with cliff over i mean i can't even begin to tell you how many hours and hours we've gone through this if they had had let's say they make the turn they lose communication ability etc etc etc but they're still flying under control but all of a sudden they they're no longer in the turn if you're if you're thinking about it the way i'm saying they made it through the turn something happens they can't

2:47communicate but they're under control now all of a sudden they have a worse problem somebody would have ejected no ejection took place sean is part of cliff's search crew and he's also something of a vector a direct link between like-minded people around the united states sean is connected to multiple volunteer efforts to find missing aircraft and he has been for years you know it was a dark night you wouldn't even realize maybe they have turned beyond their uh degree of turn that they should

3:23have been in and once they did it they lost it and once they lost it at those altitudes they're in that water and the fact that there was so there was no debris found to speak of you know what a couple pieces on the beach you know seven or eight days later uh tells me they went into that drink fully intact so if it's fully intact like 57 years ago why don't they why don't they find it 57 years ago well because

3:57number one um the comanche uh u.s coast guard uh cutter comanche which is in tacoma by the way uh they went out and tried to drag it was a formerly originally a big navy tug and then it went over to the coast guard the turning radius on those things is so huge that i don't believe they could have mowed the lawn adequately meaning the vessel may have missed something as it went back and forth

4:30across the search area what searchers call mowing the lawn sean is always going down rabbit holes in support of the projects he devotes his time to and he often finds ways to make vital contributions to the groups he helps i used to fly over sparavon you had to radio in tell them who you were going through this is from a brainstorming session with sean about flight 293 from a few years ago sean was a key part of the flight 293 team so that's why because their aircraft carrier weren't happening over in

5:02our area for instance it was sean who figured out that greg barrowman and the flight 293 families could commission underwrite and dedicate their own monument at tahoma national cemetery sean also did outreach to museums in southeast alaska about the crash of 293 and he got noah the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration to agree to keep an eye out for wreckage during their regular surveys of the sea floor in the area where 293 went down his tracking down south of seattle of the comanche the

5:35coast guard vessel used in the search for meal 88 is a perfect example of what sean does best sean is also a talker loquacious has the gift of gab as some might say whatever you call it sean is self-aware he acknowledges that he's a very chatty guy who's never at a loss for words their jets were not over in our area that far that area they were flying around you know up there off the uh nunavac island and all those areas up there near nome and north but anyway that's why i just don't buy that one

6:10wait was that your short answer sean yeah it's as short as i can get it i got one last thing the last theory that's how he's contributed most to the search for meal 88 in fact cliff scholen first contacted me a few years ago because he wanted to talk to sean and to lee corbin about their work searching black lake east of seattle for a missing u.s navy plane when cliff reached out lee was busy with another history project helping save the old seaplane hangar at the university of washington

6:40that was home to the gold medal winning boys in the boat the rowers made famous by a recent book and film he said man i've got too many irons in the fire you need to talk to sean and you're going to find him to be a burr under the saddle and that and so that's wait wait who whose saddle i have no problem reaching out to get a hold of people and interest them so this reaching out comes in handy when sean talks up the projects he's involved with to anyone who will listen but especially to someone in a position

7:14to help out one particular conversation of sean's turned into a big deal when it comes to the search for the missing b-52 i went last may to the museum of flight when project recover gave their presentation there showing their uh one video called to what remains and derek abbey who's the president ceo of project recover the museum of flight is in seattle that's where the b-52 we visited in part three is

7:45on display derek abbey is a former marine who now leads project recover we'll meet him in a moment years ago he had given me some advice about black lake and what to look for what you know how to maybe do some other search stuff on it what but we had never met project recover is a not-for-profit organization it's one of the largest and most successful groups devoted to finding and recovering remains of missing american service members all over the globe but they haven't done much work

8:18stateside an mia family never puts away the loss of somebody who hasn't been able to return home

8:26sean murphy was there that day in may 2024 at the museum of flight to see a film about project recover called to what remains this connection to the past it's a strange feeling these are not sterile pieces of steel or aluminum they're what's left of people who are fighting for their lives these family members that are missing we can't forget them they're they're heroes

8:56after the program ends sean murphy buttonholes derrick abbey burr meets saddle i told him about the b-52 he was very interested and so i put him and cliff together sean told derrick all about meal 888 then he did what he does best he connected cliff to derrick somebody who could help because of that not exactly chance meeting a critical partnership was born that could mean cliff's dream of finding the b-52 will become reality it's huge they go all over the world they had been involved

9:32in repatriation of the different uh you know people they found or remains if nothing else that's the best way to explain in the months ahead assuming the necessary funds can be raised project recover alongside cliff shoeland and his crew will launch a search mission in the gulf of mexico i think project recovery is the perfect group to do this i really do and i'm not saying it because i got them involved

10:04from ksl podcasts i'm felix bunnell this is unsolved histories bomber down the fourth and final part expedia and visit scotland invite you to come step into centuries of history that await in scotland castles steeped in legend walk along cobblestone streets come share the warmth of stories passed down

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11:05one year on the visible plan using the code fresh start refresh your wireless with visible tap the banner to switch today terms apply limited time offers subject to change see visible.com for plan features and network management details where is daredevil a minor don't miss the return of marvel television's daredevil born again so what's next i've been liberated we're gonna take this city back

11:33in an all new season now streaming only on disney plus they're hunting us it's time we started hunting them i can work with them this should be tons of fun marvel televisions daredevil born again now streaming only on disney plus on our most recent recovery effort we were screening stuff and basically we we move all this debris into a basket on the ocean floor through a system this is derek abbey

12:07ceo of project recover and basically it's almost it's like a big vacuum cleaner if you will um pulls up all this stuff and it goes and it first goes into a big basket then we crane that basket to the vessel that we're on and then we take all that debris out and we screen it a lot of it is too big to screen so then you you lay it all out you document it take photos and all that stuff derek is describing recent project recover work in the pacific island nation of palau where americans and japanese battled during

12:37world war ii and where hundreds of service members went missing and you know there's certain things that just get you project recover was founded more than 20 years ago derek has been ceo for five years before that he was a volunteer for the group and he had a long career as an aviator in the marine corps i remember the basket came up we took the lid off and i looked in and there's the oxygen mask mask for one of the aviators and i picked it up project recover will be conducting a similar search

13:08for the b-52 it's no coincidence that derek like cliff scholand flew for the u.s military that's part of the camaraderie among members of the armed forces that's at the heart of this story and i probably held on to that mask just kind of looking at it for five minutes just because it was just one of those things they every once in a while you just find this piece or something that just you know reminds you of why you're here that this we're doing this for people not aircraft or other things like that it's it's for the people that are involved one thing that's different about a combat crash in palau

13:42and meal 88 is the fact that meal 88 is considered an operational loss meaning not in combat and it's also lost in domestic waters and very close to home derek abbey says that a focus on non-combat losses is relatively new for project recover uh well we have been focused on combat but we have put forth actually a lot of efforts in cases related to training losses or operational losses um we know that the department of defense is restricted by their charter from not working on cases related to those that are

14:14missing from those accidents that are necessarily designated mia um but obviously or maybe not obviously but to us it seems obvious that they are just as missing to the those that cared for them as somebody that's lost in combat and that uh dealing with that ambiguous loss is something that is intergenerational and something that the families continue to deal with as we learned in season one of unsolved histories those missing but not missing in action what tanya anderson dell calls operational losses are not looked for by the military once the initial search concludes and so we feel and have um

14:51included these training losses as part of our mission and we've worked on multiple cases um through the years um they're they're more difficult to research because of the the context of the losses and things like that but we have put forth effort to try and find some of these sites and um it was through you know just our work and building relationships related to that work that led us to cliff specifically with sean which you you know sean hearing about sean at this thing at the museum of flight and you being there i kind of imagine sean sort of backing you into a corner and like just talking to you until you till you just

15:25relented until you feel like you sort of till you till you had to agree just to get out of there well that is i i think you are describing you know sean's personality but uh you know for stuff like this it doesn't take a lot of convincing for me to start become interested in what we're talking about sean and i joke around a lot and kid each other all the time but i treasure our friendship sean is a good guy with a big heart beyond the kidding at the root is a deep amount of real respect for him and for many others i've been privileged to get to know through this work that's the thing in talking

15:57to cliff about you know you know he's a he's a veteran obviously sean's a veteran lee corbin the other guy black lake guy's a vet and these little groups of people who have formed these kind of volunteer totally grassroots efforts to track down the stories behind these airplanes and there's something i i don't know what the common denominator is i'm not a veteran i you know i never served um but there's sort of this cliff sean lee i mean there's just this there's this kind of guy they're a little a little bit older than me typically like in their 60s or 70s that just

16:28seem they're so dogged about tracking down these planes you must meet guys like this all over the place or is or is this is this a unique thing or what is it about these people that are drawn to this as volunteers to devote there's so much time to this boy i wish i could figure out what the what the special sauce is but i am definitely surrounded by them and you know our our founder pat scannon who's also he did some time in the army he he founded our organization and then him and i met 20 20 something years ago and through that he invited me to be in the group and my approach to it was

17:03it's just the right thing to do and you know i was in the marine corps and so you know we are always talking about leave no one behind and you know this american approach to our missing in action which is uniquely american but then there's this universal human element to it um that really attracts people to the conversation at minimum and at least interest and things like that it's because of veterans not sean murphy lee corbin cliff scholen specifically but guys like them and because of

17:35derek abbey that project recover has grown steadily over the years doing more and more searches if this is a small way that i can give back then i'll do so project recover is a more sophisticated operation now than it was when it was founded and derek abbey says the economic model has also evolved back then you know we were a self-funded organization so we would do one mission a year back then to the nation of palau and it was all self-funded so it wasn't not only were you volunteering your time but people are volunteering pretty significant amount of resources to provide these answers the organization

18:10now does a lot of fundraising in order to support the multiple missions they undertake each year but they also still rely heavily on volunteers we've grown enough to be you know we've been able to raise resources to make sure that people aren't paying out of pocket but they're still giving their time and things like that and expertise still traveling to all sorts of corners of the world and and i i just don't know what it is but i i think it is you know elements of being contributors uh and and giving back and

18:40having a deep appreciation of what we have and then you know looking at the reasons for why we have it and then just finding ways of giving back and this is an outlet derek is also clear-eyed about the attractiveness of the work that project recover does and then there is this element of um adventure and you know solving a mystery and things like that that get people excited still above all else project recover keeps their work grounded in serving the families and honoring the memories of those who

19:14went missing in service to the united states but you know i think over time that stuff kind of starts to wane a little bit and you know when you have setbacks but i think for us at least for me and the i think many at project recover we have been fortunate enough to have a lot of success and we i really encourage every single one of our members whether they were involved in a particular case or not when somebody is repatriated and identified and then the family memorializes them and because it's a missing case

19:47it's not only a memorial it's much like a celebration as well but i encourage them to go bear witness to that and kind of once you do that it it's life-changing this spring uber eats has you covered whether you're celebrating mom dad or your favorite grad not all of us are great planners and with the uber eats gift tub you don't have to be send flowers perfume champagne or just their favorite meal straight to their door gifts arrive in as little

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20:57real meat and veggies served fresh from the pantry kick boring in the ball with beneficial freshly prepared meals visit purina.com slash beneficial to shop now some follow the noise bloomberg follows the money whether it's the funds fueling ai or crypto's trillion dollar swings there's a money side to every story get the money side of the story subscribe now at bloomberg.com one of those who went missing on meal 88 is captain thomas d childs karen berg was his wife while some

21:35family members of those lost aboard the b-52 have not yet fully joined cliff scholen's efforts karen is deeply and enthusiastically involved there's no reason not to you know in my mind what what would you be hoping for just let it go away and then never be recognized you sound far too reasonable and logical can you say some crazy things for me for my podcast give me a minute and i will

22:06karen is reasonable and logical and while she clearly mourned her husband tom's disappearance in 1968 she has a remarkable perspective that's different from the others we've met my sister-in-law put it very well this morning when i talked to her she said he's really never left us he's still a part of our life sort of the outlines of tom and karen's newlywed life in the mid-1960s are not dissimilar to others we've encountered in this series i met him when he was in navigator training

22:42school in waco at james conley he was um at that time he was a probably a first lieutenant he might have been a second lieutenant but probably a first lieutenant and that was my senior year in college we dated about a year and uh we married three days after i graduated from college and left the next day for california and i i i can't remember the name of the base i think it was mather maybe but that may

23:17have been a second one but it was at sacramento and uh that's where the second phase of their navigator training happened on the night of february 28th 1968 tom childs was not part of the regular crew like philip strein he was an evaluator aboard the bomber to rate the performance of the crew as they went through their radar bomb scoring training mission so when he would go off on alert or go off on on a flight would you you know would you toss and turn or and worry about him or no i never worried

23:54about him until that day um and when they were on alert we could go see them we could go they could come out you know like maybe on base we could go to the park and have a picnic or you know see them somewhere but they were still they had to have a vehicle to get right back to you know it was all very regimented that sounds kind of fun actually almost it was kind of i mean it was kind of like

24:29um channelizing or something you know they're there they're not there they're there they're not there you know keeps them keeps things happy do you feel like you and this is kind of a weird question do you feel like you ever sort of officially formally processed your grief for losing your husband yeah yeah and when did that happen do you think i think after we moved that that all got behind us

24:59maybe 10 months afterward between one and 10 months and grief is different for everybody right the dimensions of grief are just completely unique each individual person and i think you know when you think about it uh we'd only had a few years together we didn't have a whole lot of time together i think had you had time together that you know maybe you

25:30had like if you lost a partner and 20 years into your life together that would take a lot longer because this child you know was requiring my time and work and work and child and trying to be you know all things to all people you just have to get well part of getting well meant keeping in touch at least early on with some of the other families including philip strine's wife the mother

26:02of pamela monica who we met in part one and with the wife of crew member charles roberts when you have this this tragedy in common even though you're all getting on with your lives in different ways or not in some cases are you guys connecting as friends still like a year later two years later or is everyone kind of cast to the distance now no no i i think not miss robertson and i we've stayed friends forever although there's been big patches at times that we haven't communicated they've moved

26:33to houston and they're right down the street from where my daughter lives it just turned out that way karen is not a sentimental person and she hasn't dwelled on the loss of her first husband she says she couldn't she had to get back to work as a school teacher to support herself and the daughter born to the couple just a few months before the crash she also says the loss of her husband aboard a missing bomber is just not a topic that comes up much in regular conversation through life i've gotten of course further and further away i had never talked about it to anybody here

27:06in this town we've been here 40 years and i've never talked to anybody my friends or anybody about it and now i'm going to have to and it's it's okay you know i can talk to them about it and they all think it's such an interesting story karen takes a practical approach to what happened in february 1968 and i would say that happening for me was a maker a life changer i would if he'd been

27:37stayed alive and been with me i would not be the person i am today i would rely on him a whole lot more but right away i knew i had to jerk up my socks and get going and do what i needed to do to have a life that i couldn't just wait on that life it wasn't going to follow me but like all the widows of meal 88 she still remembers what it was like to get the bad news they came uh my my uh best friends our

28:12best friends another military couple and i guess it was some of the upper echelon i don't remember who the third person was probably a full colonel or something above that um came to the door probably about three in the morning and uh i got up i remember i had on red pajamas and i thought they'd been out partying and i said you guys are really getting staying out late or

28:46something i said well we need to talk to you and uh that was that was it when they said we need to talk to you do you know what that means yeah but not really i mean you don't want it to mean what you think it means but at the time it's still you know it was not like they're gone it was like the plane is missing we they they came off radar and we don't know where it is but we think phil strine was the epitome of a uh specialist or uh

29:27a um nothing nothing everything had to be perfect for him i can't remember i can't think of the word for that but he was that and so i said well if anybody can be okay they'll be okay because phil's on this and not they're not going to get to do anything that isn't exactly right and anyway of course phil was it the pilot must feel like intense yes but pleasant too unlike cindy dillaplane who chafed at

30:04how she felt the air force treated her after the crash karen berg is more accepting of the realities of how things were for a military spouse nearly 60 years ago do you think the air force could have done a better job at how they treated you or communicated with you well i i would say they could have done a little more with communication they could have sat down and said okay now we're looking right here today but they may not have known they may not have known they were you know

30:34whoever whoever runs those kind of missions probably wasn't stationed at carswell like the other families karen attended the memorial and monument dedication held at carswell air force base though it was mostly out of a sense of duty well it was just something you did you just had to do it so you did it i sense this respect for the air force and the sense of duty that you had to fulfill what your husband would have wanted you to do had this happened and i get and he didn't he hadn't outlined exactly but you

31:06knew based on who he was that you were just to go along with this stuff and participate and and be and so on sort of like play the role in a way is that fair what could you have done that would have changed anything you know there was nothing to be done in my mind you know i couldn't have demanded i mean the resources weren't there for me to demand anything that i knew i would get i don't know

31:36it never it never occurred to me to buck anything you know and like those other families karen acknowledges it was a different era before grief counselors and other assistants that might be taken for granted nowadays when some tragedy happens there's always the grief counselors and there's this very very um survivor focused effort to help people cope but there there was none of that right none of that and you know that was a period of time that if the government said stay in your house and wait

32:09that's what you did you know you didn't challenge the government then people today would immediately crank up their lawyer and try to sue for something or somewhat you know that was not that was not even an option and nobody ever even considered that just like them going the people who went to look i can see that instinct for you i want to just go look but i felt like that was not what the government wanted us to do so under different

32:41circumstances is there any version of this where you could see yourself like going and searching no no not with a four-month-old and even with a four-month-old air force housing policies for meal eight eight families weren't exactly accommodating when it came to where widows with children were supposed to live so once your husband is declared dead you have to leave base housing well they gave us a month does that seem generous i think now they give them a little more time but there were people my friend that lived next door was not unhappy with that

33:16she thought it was fine because they moved her off base and then she moved back to the town that she came from which was albuquerque and the military paid for that both of those moves the friend next door was the wife of charles roberts the mrs roberts who karen mentioned earlier and who she still keeps in touch with so you had to be out with the end of april i think may 1st so we just you know we moved we moved to an apartment complex all three of us the strine roberts and me we all lived on the same

33:52big block of apartments in case that's not clear the wives of three of the men missing on meal 8-8 major philip strine captain charles roberts and captain thomas childs all moved from base housing to the same nearby apartment complex in fort worth and that wasn't intentional though was it well maybe it was they were very nice apartments and we found them and they weren't very far from the base because we still used all the base facilities in spite of everything that happened karen still has a deep respect for the air force

34:28and it seems this is mainly because her first husband modeled this for her nearly 60 years ago before he disappeared he had a big respect for the air force and i still do we were not thrown out or anything it was a little fast but probably that was because we had to wait so long to be able to make that decision to go but they did everything i think they could do at the time i don't know

34:58it it was pretty chaotic because it was an unusual situation karen was satisfied that the air force had done all they could to find her husband's plane because they told her so she didn't question it she took what the air force said at face value that was exactly how things were back then you know if they said you know that was before vietnam and if the if the military said this that was the way it was you weren't allowed to question it if the military said okay it's october you're gonna

35:33go to minot in november okay you didn't say well let me wait till after christmas or you know you just did what you were told got it that makes perfect sense okay it's an easy way to live yeah it's kind of comforting i guess you didn't have to worry about where the decision came from or what decision you were gonna make see boy you know if the if the uh if the cold war aviators don't get enough credit god the cold war aviator spouses don't get any credit i mean because you're

36:03the you're you're keeping the home fires burning you're taking care of the kid and you're doing all that other stuff and and i was pretty unusual because i was working you know or had been working as soon as we got to fort worth i got a job karen had given up working when her daughter was born after the crash and the loss of her husband's income she went back to teaching and had a long career in education karen remarried in the early 1970s my second marriage was to an army helicopter pilot so people don't have a hard time learning their lessons so there's that you have you have a type

36:39then you're saying that marriage ended though karen is on good terms with her former husband who she says helped raise her daughter karen married third time many years ago she's now mostly retired though she and her third husband still keep pretty busy they're already making travel plans for whenever the search for the bomber gets underway we want to go cliff says that they're going to try to get that plane up down at matagorda if the search is successful and they find you know identifiable dna and there's you know human tissue that they can identify as your husband

37:13and they bury it what's that going to feel like that's kind of more closure we keep using that word there's just more closure i will want i mean like cliff said he can go to arlington i think that would suit everybody um it suits me and um that's a beautiful place the plan is to be nearby on the texas gulf coast as the search is taking place we'll go down to wherever they are he said they're going to be at port o'connor i think it is and that's close enough for us to go down and even if nothing

37:49happens it'll be nice to be there and cliff schoelen will be prepared to warmly welcome karen and whoever else comes to port o'connor maybe taking a page he says from the flight 293 playbook in season one i'm already planning on uh how i'm gonna feed all these people yeah i think you know the greg bar barryman barbecue you know i'm kind of thinking something like that that's how tightly connected this missing military aircraft community has become that cliff can reference greg barryman leader of the flight 293 families and a barbecue cliff didn't

38:25even attend for cliff the search and feeding all those people is just the next phase of the mission everybody in my family knows that when they crank up this 21 day expedition i want to be there i don't necessarily think i'll be able to get on board the vessel unless they find something and they want a b52 subject matter expert to come out and look at pictures to try to help them identify whether or not that what we're looking at is from a b52 but i certainly want to be in close proximity if you think

39:03back to when you were you know that guy first led you across the the uh walkway to where that monument was obscured there at carswell or five six years ago when you got back into this and went back to your old notebooks and you know looked at your notes from from 1993 did you ever imagine we'd be at this stage now where we're talking about all these specifics around this this vessel and all these other people no i thought in 2021 when i delivered my report to the family members i i was

39:34done you know in my mind i had accomplished what i set out to do which was to tell the story and give the story to the family members at this point in my conversation with cliff he spelled out part of the story that i hadn't grasped before again it speaks to those certain kinds of dedicated volunteers appreciated by derrick abbey of project recover who it turns out are also key to that tight connection mentioned a moment ago and then sean murphy came along and you know i thanks to you and

40:10your article on what he and lee corbin were doing up there at black lake you know one thing led to another black lake is a spot in the cascades east of seattle that lee and sean successfully petitioned the navy to officially designate as the resting place of a still missing plane with two aviators aboard in 2022 they dedicated a monument and organized a huge memorial event lee and sean had been working separately on researching that missing plane until i introduced them to each other and they

40:41teamed up sean basically after you know playing 20 questions with me you know and learning quite a bit about what had happened you know he basically said you're not done and i said no i am he said you will never be done until you bring these guys home and he said what you've done you've got all the information and i said well i'm not equipped to go out and find these guys and he said there are lots of organizations out there in the world uh that are that are capable of doing that including of course

41:18project recover and so yeah sean murphy if there's anybody to blame for this it's sean we'll have an update about project recover search for meal 88 in a follow-up episode of unsolved histories later this year or early next year donations in support of the search are welcome and may be made online at the project recover website for more information including photos and maps find us on facebook and instagram at unsolved histories pod or visit our website unsolved

41:50histories pod.com episodes are posted every other tuesday each covers an unsolved little known or mysterious event in history follow unsolved histories by ksl now wherever you get your podcasts unsolved histories is researched written and hosted by me felix bunnell production and sound design by josh tilton special thanks to trent sell aaron mason andrea smarten kelly ann halverson ryan meeks amy donaldson ben kebrick and dave cawley our executive producer is cheryl worsley unsolved histories is

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