333. Find the Vibe: Build Stronger Connections Through Communication Part 1

Welcome and guest introduction

0:00Our best relationships rely on connection, the ability to vibe with somebody else. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

0:18Today, I am super excited to speak with Adam Grant. Adam is an organizational psychologist and top-rated professor at the Wharton School. He has written several best-selling books, such as Think Again and Hidden Potential. His latest book is Vive, The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. Beyond his academic research on motivation and workplace dynamics, he hosts the TED podcast, Rethinking. It should be in everybody's queue. Well, welcome, Adam. I have long admired your work and have enjoyed my conversations with many of your

0:50Wharton colleagues, Katie Milkman, Angela Duckworth, Wendy De La Rosa, and Jonah Berger. It's really exciting for me to meet you personally here. Thank you. Well, I'll try to live up to that. Great to be here, Matt. Thank you. Shall we get started?

Overcoming public speaking anxiety

1:03Bring it on.

Overcoming public speaking anxiety

1:04All right. I'd like to initiate a conversation around public speaking and communication. In your book, Hidden Potential, you share the story of how you went from a terrified to confident public speaker. Can you share what that anxiety was like for you and how you successfully learned to manage the anxiety to become a great, well-known, and well-sought-after speaker? Well, sharing the anxiety part is easy. I have vivid memories of knowing that I was going to have to get up in front of people and just shaking physically. I could see my hands moving. I

1:38couldn't control it. I was so jittery. Usually that was the first cue, actually, is I would see it before I felt it. And then I would notice that my heart was racing. It felt like it was going to beat right out of my chest. I would notice that my breathing sort of, it would get fast and shallow, like I just finished a sprint. Yeah. And not only was it making me not want to get up in front of an audience, I didn't feel like I could deliver a coherent sentence because I couldn't catch my breath. And I felt like the

2:10only way to get through it, Matt, was just to rehearse it so often that my body had to get used to it. I wanted to put myself through a form of, I guess, exposure therapy. So the only thing I could think to do was to put myself in a situation where the stakes were both higher and lower at the same time. So I was in grad school at the time and I knew I was going to have to start teaching my own classes and I was terrified. So I volunteered to give guest lectures for my friends' classes. And on the one hand, that was much scarier because I only had a 30 or 60 minute

2:47window to try to get through to these students. And they were going to judge me just by that performance. I didn't have then the rest of the semester to recover if I stumbled or if I sounded like I was Darth Vader because I was breathing so heavily. But on the other hand, these students didn't have any real say over my future. They weren't going to hate my class and tank my teaching evaluations and undermine my ability to get a lecturing job in the future or a professorship in the future. And so I thought, okay, this is the perfect place to practice because I was under

3:21pressure. But at the end of the day, it didn't really matter. And a few friends were kind enough to say yes. And after every guest lecture, I gave out feedback forms and I said, tell me what you'd like to see repeated and more importantly, what I should change. And some of the comments were not friendly. I remember one of them said, you're so nervous, you're causing us to physically shake in our seats. Only much later did I think, wow, I have a form of telekinesis. Not fun at the time.

3:53And then there was a student who wrote that I was so awkward on stage that I reminded them of a Muppet. And they never even told me which Muppet. Maybe you can help me with that. Yeah. I immediately thought of Animal, the one who's frenetic and always moving. I could see that. I was thinking it might be the sweetest chef. But something really interesting happened, Matt, as I went through this. Not only did I stop having mild panic attacks as I repeatedly got in front of audiences, but I also discovered that I had already put myself in the worst case

4:28scenario. What is somebody going to say about my teaching that's worse than your anxiety is contagious and you remind me of a Muppet? And so I felt like at that point, I had nothing to lose. And as I got a little bit less uncomfortable, I started cracking more jokes. I started being a little bit more spontaneous and responding to the energy in the room. And I had a better connection with the audience and the vibe improved and that built my confidence up. And so I think what I learned from

4:58that experience was in the first semester where I was afraid to get on any stage, I felt like I needed to wait until I'd built my confidence in order to take action. And I realized I had that backward. I needed to take the action in order to build my confidence. And it was through doing the reps, putting myself in that situation where I did not want to be there, where I just felt the butterflies constantly, that I ended up earning the confidence to keep doing it. Do it and then reflect on it, I think is a really powerful way to address the fear of speaking in front

5:35of others. And I really appreciate that idea of finding situations that have high stakes, but at the same time, aren't so critical that that a bad performance can lead to devastating consequences. So it's really the exposure therapy that helped you get through that. But I also noticed a cognitive shift. You got out of your head and you got into the room where you were paying attention to what was happening and responding to it. A lot of nervous speakers are inside their own head, replaying what's happening for them or they should be saying or could have been saying

6:06instead of actually connecting outside. I'll be curious when we talk about your new book, if this experience helped you become curious about connecting and the ways in which we can connect and relate to others. Two things that just jumped out at me. One, I think the ideal stakes for practice are stressful in the moment, but no lasting cost. And so it feels like it might be embarrassing in the present, but you're not going to carry it with you into your future. I think that's the situation in which you want to practice or dip your toe in the water.

6:39And then, yeah, that experience definitely got me curious about how to form connection because I had all these ideas I was passionate about. I was excited to get to know my students and build relationships with them. But I didn't know how to cross that bridge when it was me with a sea of invisible faces. And I think that for me, the intermediate step in that journey was then to say, okay, I've now gotten comfortable being uncomfortable. And I hope that I'm not going

7:09to change my first nature as Brian Little, one of my favorite psychologists would call it. I am an introvert physiologically. I am shy, but I want to make this second nature. I want to expand my comfort zone so that this feels... Yeah, it feels like something I can do regularly and not freak out about for weeks in advance. So my comfort zone started to expand, but then the hurdles got bigger. I had to speak for audiences that were more terrifying. I had to get in front of US Army and

7:40Air Force generals. I had to start giving TED Talks. And I also had to start teaching classes that were very short. I had 225 students in just a week. And I didn't have time to get to know them and build relationships with them like I'd always done. And so every time my comfort zone expanded, the challenge expanded. And I was kind of in the deep end, treading water all over again. And those consistent challenges really gave me a crash course in saying, you know what?

8:10The worst case scenario is I'm going to embarrass myself again. And then I'm going to have great material for future learning and teaching. So that's a huge cognitive reframe there, that this is something that I can learn from versus something I have to endure and survive. I find it interesting that you say you had to do these things. I think it's awesome that you got to do those things to share your knowledge with folks. I want to come back to the idea that feedback played a critical role in your getting comfortable speaking in front of others. You were very specific

8:40in the feedback you asked for. You didn't just say, how'd I do? Talk to me about the role that feedback played for you in your journey, but how feedback can play in all of our journeys as we learn to connect and engage with others better.

Feedback versus advice

8:54So I've come to believe that feedback is overrated and advice is underrated when it comes to learning. And I didn't know that I was doing this at the time, but I'll tell you a quick story from the Air Force experience. Fast forward a couple years, I've started teaching my own classes and I get a call from the US Air Force and they say, we're looking for somebody to teach leadership to our generals and colonels. You came recommended, would you do it? And Matt, I felt massively unqualified. I looked at the bios of these Air Force leaders. I did not have thousands of flying

9:30hours. I did not have hundreds of thousands of troops under my command. I didn't have a multi-billion dollar budget. But I had never served my country before and I felt like I had a responsibility to say yes. So I did. And it was even more intimidating than I had feared. When I walked in, it looked like I seen out a Top Gun. And the Air Force leaders, instead of names on their name cards, they had their call signs. So staring me down are gunner and striker and bomber. And I felt

10:01like what I had to do was prove myself to these people. So I started talking about my credentials and my expertise and all the research I'd done. And I got the feedback forms afterward and they were brutal. One of the Air Force leaders had written, there was more knowledge in the audience than on the podium. Fact. And then I pulled out another one and it said, I gained very little from this session, but I trust the instructor got useful insight. Dagger to the heart. I remember reading that and

10:35Googling, can humans learn to hibernate like bears? I wanted to crawl into a hole for months. I wanted to quit my job and never walk in front of another military audience again. I had a problem. I had already committed to doing another session with a group of Air Force leaders. It was about a week later. And as a matter of principle, I follow through on my commitments. So what could I do? I didn't know this at the time, but research has come out in the last few years showing that we actually learn more from other people. If instead of seeking their feedback,

11:07we ask for their advice. And the reason for that is feedback is backward looking. It tells you what you did wrong yesterday. And that's clearly what these Air Force leaders had done for me. Whereas advice is forward looking. It gives you specific actionable guidance around what you can change to do better tomorrow. And that's exactly what I ended up finding when I thought, okay, I don't know what to do. All I could think to do was to go back to the Air Force leaders who crucified me. But I asked them a different question. Instead of giving me feedback,

11:43I said, I need suggestions. I have to do this again. What advice do you have for me next time? And I got very different responses from them. I got comments about changes I could make. And some of them had to do with content, which was, that was just useless for me because I had already crammed everything I knew about leadership into my four hours and I did not have time to fully reboot it. But a few of the comments I got revolved around the way that I introduced myself to the audience. And one of the Air Force leaders said, look, we can all tell that you're

12:16junior. Why don't you just call out the elephant in the room? And I thought, what do I have to lose? So I walked in front of the next group of Air Force leaders. I stared them down and I said, I know what you're thinking right now. What could I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old? It was crickets. But after what felt like an eternity, one of the Air Force leaders, I'm going to call him Sand Dune because that was his call sign. He jumped in and he said,

12:47that's ridiculous. You look like you're at least 13. And everybody laughed at that and it broke the ice. And I more or less thought the same material, but I had taken myself off a pedestal that I didn't belong on. And afterward, the comments were completely different. One of my favorite ones said, you know, the professors seem to get younger every year. Or is it that we're getting older? Either way, it was nice to learn about how to motivate millennials from someone who's almost young enough to be one. And although junior in experience, Adam dealt with the evidence in an

13:20interesting way. And Matt, it was a great lesson for me about showing a little humility and being willing to laugh at myself, but also in taking the very people who gave me useless, demoralizing feedback, seeking their advice, and discovering they actually had a lot to teach me. I think your call sign would be suggestions, question mark. It's so true. I appreciate several things that you said. One, that it's really important to seek advice,

13:51which is prospective versus feedback, which is retrospective. And that's really important. And how you ask for that advice matters. But you also gave us a really important lesson about how you start communication. Many of us lead with strength, with competence, and in fact, connection and warmth can be really important. And the joke you made really, I think, sounds like transformed the experience. So I appreciate you sharing that too. Well, thank you. It's something I've continued to do every time I give a speech or have a conversation

14:22in front of an audience. I will take anybody I can find afterward and first invite them to be critics and tell me, like, zero to 10, what would you rate that? And it's almost never does anybody give a 10. And at that point, when, even if they say, whether it's a three and a half or a nine, right, they have admitted there is something I could do that needs improvement. And so I say, okay, you gave me a score. It wasn't a 10. What can I do to get closer to 10? And that's where the

14:53advice starts to come into play. And I don't want to over-index on everyone's comments, but I, if I hear the same theme from multiple people independently, I'm going to take that as a useful signal. And one thing that comes up repeatedly when I, when I ask people how to get closer to 10 is the introduction really matters and striking that balance between showing confidence and signaling that you're competent, but also making a real connection with the audience is not always

The mechanics of vibing

15:20easy. I'd like to turn our attention to your current book, your new book vibe. It's all about how we connect with others and how wrong we often are about the assumptions we have around communicating. How do you know if you're vibing with someone? My kids tell me somebody my age can't even use the word vibing, but how do you know if you're vibing with someone? Yeah. My 15 year old told me to stop saying vibe because I was ruining the word. I actually think there's a paradox, which is similar to when you're in a flow state. You often don't notice your vibing until after the fact, because you're so

15:54immersed in the conversation that you weren't even thinking about it. And I think that is, that is probably the most basic sign that you're vibing with somebody else is the conversation was so delightful. It was so absorbing that time flew. You lost track of where you were, maybe even who you were. And afterward you, you, you, you kind of marveled at, wow, we really clicked. I think that if you wanted to get more precise about knowing when you're vibing, if you were a neuroscientist, you could

16:24actually measure people's brainwaves and heartbeat synchronizing. That's a sign that people are experiencing chemistry in the moment. And then over time you would discover that every time you interact, it brings you closer, even if you're not always having the most pleasant interaction. So for me, one of the strongest signs that you're vibing with somebody is that you can have an argument with them and come away feeling like I understood them better. I trust them more. I like them more, even though we didn't agree. Are there things that we can do to increase the likelihood that we vibe, especially in a world

17:00where a lot of our communication has become much more transactional, especially with the virtual communication that we do? How can we increase that connection, which is lovely when you experience it in a world where we're on Zooms, Teams, Meets, and it's all scheduled by the half hour? I actually have some good news on that front, which is there's some brand new research by Eli Finkel and his colleagues on virtual dates versus in-person dates. And let me just tell you, Matt, I don't know anybody who would prefer to go on a Zoom date to a date in a restaurant. But if you actually

17:36look at the data comparing them, although the in-person date tends to last twice as long, they are equally enjoyable and equally likely to lead to a second date.

17:48And I think this is because people have low expectations for virtual interaction. And when you vibe with somebody that you just met over Zoom, you come away thinking, wow, that went better than I thought it would. And you're just as eager to meet them. You can still gauge at a basic level whether you find them attractive and interesting. And so I don't think we should write off virtual interaction altogether. The evidence on Zoom fatigue suggests that we don't actually burn out having back-to-back Zooms. We get bored out. It's originally a French term,

18:21le ball out. And it's different from burnout because burnout is basically being drained by being overstimulated and stressed beyond your capacity. Whereas bore out comes from being understimulated and being at below challenge level. And that is unfortunately the effect that too much virtual interaction can have on us. So I think we need to set a limit on that. A 30-minute Zoom date or meeting could go fine, but let's not hang out for three hours virtually.

Allies, pals, and companions

18:52Beyond recalibrating our expectations for virtual, are there things we can do to enhance vibing? I think it depends what kind of wavelength you want to vibe on. So I've actually found that there are three different kinds of wavelengths that we can connect on. And I think about them as allies, pals, and companions. So if you want to enlist someone as an ally, you're basically trying to figure out what goals you share so you can help each other succeed. You want to be on a mission together. If you're looking to connect with somebody as a pal,

19:25a pal is somebody who you just enjoy interacting with. And so you're probably defaulting to what would be fun? Do we have favorite hobbies in common, shared interests? Do we like the same books, movies, or music? And then I think companionship is often the most intimate form of connection, but it's not always the strongest. A companion is somebody where there's real mutual affection and care. And there you probably are more interested in finding out what are their biggest struggles right now emotionally? How can you support them? You might also want to confide in them and open up

20:01a little bit. And so I actually think, Matt, this is the first step. If you want to improve your vibe with people that you're just meeting or you're trying to strengthen your connection with, I think you want to start by asking, am I trying to build a connection as allies, pals, or companions? I really appreciate that distinction of in what way are you trying to connect? I often conflate these in my own life and then I get disappointed. And it's helpful for me to think about these are the people with whom I really just want to be pals. And these are people who, for me, are allies. I

20:34appreciate that. Let's take allies just as an example, if you don't mind. What might be a few things I could do to help myself form some of those relationships? Allies are people who share your goals. Pals are people who share your interests. And companions are people who share your core values. And if you're trying to enlist more allies in your life, you're basically looking for good collaborators. And I think that usually starts with asking people, what's the biggest challenge you're running into right now? Or what's a problem you would love somebody to help you to

21:07solve? And when people start to talk about the roadblocks they're running into, the obstacles they're encountering, you can immediately think of, okay, what do I know? Or who do I know that might be helpful there? That's, I think, the asking approach. If you want to start with offering instead, open up about one of your biggest challenges to achieving your goals. And then say, hey, here's where I am right now. I'm stuck. Or here's what I'm trying to accomplish. I would love some help. Is this something that's exciting for you too? If so, maybe there's a way that we can collaborate or partner. But I want to put a giant disclaimer on this. Do not propose collaboration on the first

21:44date. Way too soon. The worst cold emails I get, Matt, are from people who say, hey, I just wanted to reach out and see if we could collaborate on a project. I'm like, I don't even know you. I just met you. Why don't instead you offer me an idea, a bit of advice, maybe even a piece of feedback or a suggestion. And let me get a taste of who you are and what you do. And then we can figure out whether it would make sense for us to collaborate on anything. I appreciate you delineating the ways

22:17in which we can look to form allies and specifying the differences among the different types of relationships. One of the things I really liked that you said was in these situations, when you're trying to connect to vibe, you can ask or you can offer. And it's probably a balance of the two that can be most helpful. But as you go into these situations, think to yourself, what can I ask? What can I offer? I think can be really helpful. Let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsor, strawberry.me. The real value of coaching is what it helps you see and what it helps you do

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23:24It's all designed to make coaching more financially accessible. And because it's online, you can use it from anywhere in the world. Visit strawberry.me slash smart to get 50% off of your session and make sure you tell them Matt sent you. This has been a fantastic conversation, Adam. Before we end,

Three ingredients for connection

23:41as you well know, I like to ask three questions. One, I make up just for you and two, I've been asking everybody as long as the show has been going. Are you okay with that? Of course. So this was not my original question, but now I have to ask it. On a scale of one to 10, how have I done in this interview and what advice would you have for me to improve? Well, I have to use a zero to 10 because the zero is just an extreme fail. And also it allows for a midpoint of five. So I'm going to modify your scale. That's my first piece of advice. Zero to 10. We use the diving scorecard.

24:15Okay. Secondly, I'm going to give you a 9.25. And let's see, you asked how you can improve. I think, here's what I would say. You are remarkably prepared. You do your homework in advance on your guests and their ideas, and that's both validating and productive. You were such a skilled communicator. I'd seen this in your videos for years, but it's different to experience it directly. Thank you. You actually demonstrate inverse charisma. I feel like you've brought out a better version of me

24:48than I would have brought to an interview with somebody else. And I think that's a testament to the quality of questions you ask, but also the way you respond. And very often, I would say almost every response you gave after my comments, I had another thought that was sparked by you reflecting back your experience or you making an observation about something I'd said that I didn't even realize was interesting. The stakes comment, I think, was an example of that. It was just kind of a throwaway observation. Yeah, it was high stakes, but it was kind of not high stakes. And then you commented on

25:21that. I realized, oh, yeah, we want immediate stakes and long-term irrelevance. Yeah, that's a principle of good exposure therapy. Okay. Didn't know that, but you just taught me that I had something to say about that. Thank you for that. I think that you're underusing those strengths. I think that your questions are so meaty that my impulse is to give you a full answer, especially because I know that in our recording, you're going to cut down to the greatest hits. And so I want to give you more material to work with. The risk of that is it reduces our burstiness.

25:54It reduces the rapid fire back and forth. And I don't get as much back from you that then I can riff on. And the coach answer, I think, was a great example of that. I gave you three points. You could have responded to each one. And so I think if you gave your guests a target of maybe one to two minutes per answer as opposed to three to five, or you said, hey, I've got some meaty or questions, and then I have some that are more 30 to 60 second style that I would love to react to and then have

26:24a novel conversation around. I think that would be helpful because I feel torn between the competing goals of doing justice to the quality of the question with a quality answer and giving you more space to react. And I think I erred on the former side and you could do more of the latter. What do you think? I actually really appreciate that advice because when I think about the shows I like and have listened to yours and see what you do, I like the term burstiness because I know exactly what you're talking about. I like that in my interpersonal conversations a lot, and I think I can bring that here. So I appreciate that. And I also, it's very hard for me to accept compliments,

26:58so I will simply say thank you for the compliments. All right, question number two, and I'll be very interested in this answer. Who is a communicator you admire and why? A lot of the communicators I admire most are people who are great at explaining complex ideas in ways that make them memorable, but don't flatten a 3D concept into two dimensions. And I think that Dan Coyle, Kate Murphy, Nedra Glover, Tawwab are all remarkably good at that.

27:30The ability to make complex information accessible is a true talent, and everybody you mentioned is good at that. And I'm not blowing smoke here. Several of our guests have named you as their communicator that they admire. So know that people are really taking value from what you do as well. Well, that's an honor, but flattery will get them nowhere. Okay. I won't tell you who they were then. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? It depends on the type of communication. Are we talking about writing, speaking, conversing? Well, let's talk about what you wrote about

28:04recently, connecting, interpersonal. If you're trying to communicate in ways that help you connect, number one, I don't think there's any way to get around showing a genuine interest in getting to know the other person. Table stakes. Being as curious about the other person as you are excited to share about yourself. I think that's key. And that is the antidote to what sociologists call conversational narcissism. So that's number one. I think number two is keeping

28:36your turns short. One of the markers of a great vibe in a conversation is more rapid turn-taking. Neuroscientists have shown this, that if people are kind of going back and forth every 30 or 60 seconds, they're much more likely to both be excited about the conversation than if they're alternating eight-minute monologues. And so be brief. And that invites the other person to be brief, at least initially. And then the third step, if you want to vibe, you have shown an interest in the other person. You've gotten that bursty back and forth. I think the last thing to do is to take note of

29:12a few things you want to remember from the conversation. These have been called pebbles, or it's the act of pebbling. You follow up a week or a month or a year later, and you say, hey, I was thinking about this comment you made. Or I watched a show or read an article that reminded me of you. That is a memory flex. And that is a way of signaling, hey, I cared enough not just to listen to you in the moment, but to actually notice over time, there was something that I engaged with that I think you would like to. And that's a great way to both strengthen and solidify a connection.

29:46I love that term, memory flex. I like it. I've described what you said a lot, and I've never used that term, but I will now. So it's about demonstrating interest, burstiness, and pebbling. If you can do those three things, you've got a good communication. I love how well you synthesize. That's what I should have said. Yes. I think the three ingredients of a great vibe are interest in the other person, burstiness in the back and forth rapidly, and then sending little pebbles afterward to say, hey, I thought of you and I noticed what

30:17you care about and I want to stay connected. Excellent. Thank you so much for the wide range of advice and guidance you've given. This has been a fantastic conversation. I appreciate your time and best of luck with your new book. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here, Matt. This was an absolute joy. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. I really enjoyed learning from Adam Grant today. One of the biggest takeaways I had was how we actually have different types of connection we go after, be it allies, pals,

30:50or companions. This really changed the way I look at the relationships I have and am seeking to have. To learn more about creative thinking and communication, listen to episode 80 from Adam's colleague Jonah Berger. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, Alex McCarthy, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.

31:21Please share our show with your friends, families, co-workers, pals, allies, and companions.