Why Do People Respond to Change the Way They Do?

0:00People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on Earth. Well, personality psychology is about the nature of human nature. It's about people. And wouldn't that be useful to know? I can't think of a more important problem.

0:19You're listening to the Science of Personality podcast, brought to you by Hogan Assessments, the global leader in personality and leadership. Guided by your hosts, Hogan Chief Science Officer and world-renowned personality psychologist, Dr. Ryan Sherman, alongside Hogan's PR manager and resident storyteller, Blake Lepp, this podcast explores the impact of personality on life, leadership, and the nature of human nature.

0:47Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Sherman, along with my co-host, as always, Blake Lepp. Say hello, Blake. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Science of Personality podcast, episode 148. Today, Ryan and I are joined by Dr. Victoria Grady, Associate Professor of Management at George Mason University's Costello College of Business, to talk about change. More specifically, we're going to dive into the psychology behind

1:18why people respond to change the way they do. Change affects us all, but how it affects us varies widely. Some find change to be personally disruptive or destructive, while others seem to just roll with the punches. So, what's going on here? Well, this has been at the forefront of Victoria's research, and we're thrilled to have her on the podcast to discuss this fascinating topic. But, before we get to our conversation with Victoria, if you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes, or you want to ask Ryan or me a question,

1:50shoot us an email at hello at thescienceofpersonality.com, or follow the Science of Personality on LinkedIn. Now, let's get to it. Victoria, welcome to the podcast. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before we get started? Thank you so much. I appreciate that great introduction. I think I am all good. Well, Victoria, I want to say welcome to the podcast as well. And you came to us highly recommended by our friend Jason Blair, who has also been a guest on our podcast.

2:22And with your background in management and teaching management as a professor of management and your research and your knowledge of change, we're super excited to have you here today. So, thanks again for joining us.

2:35Thanks so much, Ryan. And I appreciate that a lot. I'm excited to be here, and it's a great honor. Jason speaks so highly of both of you and the podcast and your work. So, I'm super excited to be part of it. Well, we're big fans of Jason. And for our listeners, you can go back. I don't even recall. We've done so many of these episodes at this point. But we have had Jason on in the past, and it was a really great conversation with him. So, go check that one out in our archive. But today, we're going to talk about change.

3:06So, Victoria, we're going to start this off like we normally do with our guests. What got you interested in the topic of change, and how did it all start? Well, I think that's such a great question. And it's interesting because what actually got me interested in change is the fact that I do not like it. I'm not very flexible or adaptable by my nature. So, that, as I entered my PhD program back in the early 2000s,

3:39I recognized that that wasn't necessarily a great attribute. That was something I was going to have to maybe adjust a little bit as I was going through the program. And luckily, I had the great fortune of having Dr. Jerry Harvey, a professor at GW. He was an eminent scholar. We have lost him now. He's gone. But he was an amazing researcher who spent his entire life trying to understand more about why

4:14and how people transition through and with different types of change. And so, that class, being my first one out of the gate, was a great way for me to recognize that I was going to have to make some, I'm quoting in the air, changes myself in terms of how I managed through the doctoral program process. And as I studied it to try to help myself, but be more flexible and adaptable,

4:48I became fascinated with a theory that we'll talk about later, I believe, called attachment theory. And the role that attachment theory plays in how we, as humans, manage through the change process. Yeah, so this is such a big topic, Victoria, because, of course, there's change in our personal lives. And, I mean, the place that we hear it a lot in the business world is about change in organizations or change in organizational structures, change in organizational strategy.

5:21And there's an entire field of consulting around change management.

5:28I mean, I know you're going to tell us a lot of things that you've learned about this here today. But how frequently, I mean, do you see this? I mean, this was a, I know this has been a big topic for a long time, but can you tell us a little bit about the sort of rise of change management? Has it always been a thing that organizational researchers are focused on? Is it relatively new? Is it rising in concern and interest in today's world? Or has it become less interest than it was, say, some years ago? I mean, I think that is a loaded question.

6:01So, from my perspective, the real literature or the increase in literature really began in the late 80s, early 90s. A lot of the change and the technology revolution was just beginning back in the late 80s and early 90s. And the first article that I read about change management, and I'm, again, quoting in the air proper, was an article written by a gentleman named John Cotter,

6:31who happened to be a faculty member at Harvard Business School at the time. And he talked about his eight different phases or steps, I believe, to help you transition through that change process. And that article from 1993 is often cited as one of the first well-accepted pieces of literature in the change space. What I will say is that there are other articles that were published before that, notably one by a gentleman named Kurt Lewin back in the early 50s,

7:11that if you want to be, you know, in the strict sense of the word, talking about change literature, I would argue that that article, Lewin's theory, was probably the first really defined theory around change management. So you've got a pretty big gap if you look at that article in the early 50s and you come all the way to the early 90s. There were articles that were published during that time, but nothing that really took hold the way that Cotter's work kind of reinvigorated that space.

7:45When you look at the literature post-1993, it seemed to get a lot of traction. And if you look back, again, as that technology revolution continued in the introduction of some of the Apple products, and I don't know if you remember the BlackBerry and the way we communicate as part of an organization, things inside that organizational space really began to accelerate in terms of the pace.

8:17And I would argue that it kept accelerating at a pretty predictable pace throughout the early 2000s through the 2010s. But when COVID hit, wow, it just has exploded. And I don't think we'll see that pace of change slow down now, maybe ever. I just think things are on a trajectory that have made the entire field of change management explode,

8:51but explode maybe in a different way than what we had seen in previous times. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, Ryan, or you want to give me any of your perspectives, if you agree with that timeline or... No, no, I'm asking you because this is definitely an area that I'm most up-to-date on. So, no, I really appreciate that perspective. That helps me have a better understanding. Certainly, this is a topic that we get asked about all the time at Hogan about change management, but this was a nice little lesson for me around some of the history on it.

9:24And I actually didn't realize that Kurt Lewin was actually involved in that topic. So, yeah, no, really fascinating. Thanks, Victoria. Well, you got me thinking. I mean, you said COVID, and now we're looking at this AI boom. I mean, you're right. The change doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon. It just seems to be accelerating, which do you have any thoughts on the AI part of it? Absolutely, Blake. That's a great question and also a great note.

9:55I think that for right, at least from my perspective right now, it's a really evolving space and the way that AI is going to impact change is fascinating. I'll tell you a quick, quick story. I said when I started, I am inherently a change-averse person. I like predictability. I like to know what's coming, maybe a little bit of control, those kinds of things.

10:34And over the course of my career, I have definitely shifted my perspective. I never forget where I was initially, but I've definitely shifted my perspective. I'm telling you that because in 2023, late 2022, 2023, I really started to hear about this thing called AI. And at that time, I really didn't understand what that meant or how pervasive it was going to be. So I decided to, as I often do, take a class and learn a little bit more about AI and how AI was going to impact my work and teaching and the higher education as an industry.

11:17And just to get a better handle on what it means to use AI and use AI in the classroom. I have colleagues that are at that time and maybe even a few still who are like, no AI, I'm not going there. We're going to keep everything the way it is for now. But for me, as I learned more about AI and I read more about it, I decided that I was going to be more proactive.

11:47About understanding a little bit more about how it could be a tool in the classroom versus waiting. And it's been really interesting because I teach an MBA class directly related to organizational change. And I have the great fortune of, I have outside clients or consulting engagements that allow me to bring my students real world opportunities, real world experience.

12:18So we decided we had the opportunity to work. We were working with a group and that particular organization needed a change strategy. And I asked them if the class could create their change strategy and could the class use AI to create their change strategy? I mean, Blake, it was crazy. I had one group who we decided would be the holdout of the five and didn't use any AI.

12:49And the other four groups were allowed to use AI. So we had a control group, if you will. It was fascinating what we got out of it and how incredible and how much faster the groups that were able to use AI came up with their end result, their end product. It was pretty interesting, though, that the results were very, very similar, which I thought was also fascinating. What was the real difference is the time it took. So I'm winding into this question that you gave me, you know, the importance of AI in our everyday lives and how that is even changing the way we think about change.

13:32And we think about how we're going to manage change and how organizations are going to do that. I mean, it's just incredible, really. I think I'm so fortunate to be part of such an incredibly evolving and exciting space in the change management time frame. So does that answer your question, Blake? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it does. It very much does. But there was also so I know I mean, that wasn't even no direction. I thought we were even going to go go down today. But but, you know, I had to ask.

14:04That's why we can't just map out every episode perfectly.

14:09But what I want to get back to is something you mentioned, you know, early on in your first response. And that was the around attachment theory. So there are a lot of people out there who think that resistance to change is irrational. So I'm curious about how attachment theory reframes what's actually happening psychologically here. Can you dive into that a little bit? I absolutely can. And I also think that it's it's interesting because I'll pivot back around to where we just were and how that's so interesting, maybe a little bit later related to resistance to change.

14:49So I don't believe as a fundamental principle that people are, in fact, resistant to change. I know people use that phrase a lot. We hear it written about we hear it in the media a lot, but I don't buy it. I don't believe based on my experience in studying attachment behavior for 15 years that it really is the change that they're resisting. Instead, I think it is more about the loss that they will experience because of going through the change.

15:25So it's, for example, we aren't necessarily opposed to a technology that's going to help us do our job more efficiently and effectively. Instead, we are opposed to that transition period, if you will, that what what D.W. Winnicott called the transitional space, right? That time where you are going from current state to future state and the uncertainty that's in that space. And so what I believe fundamentally is that people are resistant to that uncertainty that exists in that transitional space, not the change itself.

16:05What do you think about that? Well, Victoria, I think that's really an interesting point of view. It makes me think about, you know, the need to innovate, right? I mean, this is such a big topic that we hear in organizations today. Well, we need to innovate. We need to stay on the cutting edge, which is driving towards change. So that sort of puts people in this juxtaposition where the concern is, you know, potential loss. And I think that there's some real rationality behind your point there as well.

16:43So we think about startup companies and there's no real fear of change because there's not much to lose, right? There isn't there isn't a company yet, right? So there's no fear of losing anything. Whereas companies, legacy companies that have been around for a while, change does come with risk, right? Increased risk of losing something. So to me, that makes a lot of sense. But how do you square this demand for innovation with resistance to change?

17:14I think that's a really interesting question. And it's incredibly complex because, as I mentioned a minute ago, the work of D.W. Winnicott around transitional objects and transitional space really helps highlight and complement the research and the work done around attachment theory. It gives us an answer to your question around the, like, what do you do about this? How do you manage through a loss that might be uncomfortable or might feel uncertain?

17:49And really what we've seen is that identifying and providing support mechanisms for individuals who are experiencing change is critical. I mean, critical to success. And what I mean by that, let me dig in for just a second, is more related to an object that an individual identifies as providing support.

18:21So it's not necessarily what you think, as maybe the leader in an organization, folks might need you to do in terms of helping them feel supported during a change. Instead, it's more about understanding the more individual nature. And let me give you an example, pulling back to your question around innovation and startups. So I had the great opportunity to work with a startup company probably 12 years ago that had just won with an incredibly innovative organization.

18:59And what I didn't understand then is that there are facets of what they were doing and innovation at its core that was related to AI. It was just an evolved, it was like an early version, if you will, of what AI would do for us anyway. But this was an incredibly innovative, young company. I don't think anybody there was older than 30. And they won their first big contract. And they were super excited about moving locations.

19:32They were going to get out of this one room space where they had existed for all this time and have like a proper office. So they did this and it was interesting because there were probably 50% of the group who were very reticent and the number was around 20 people. So it was a small group, but very reticent to make this move. The other 10 were like, let's go, let's go, let's go. This is so exciting. So they get there and everybody, all the, everyone that worked there started to really struggle.

20:09The productivity, the performance really started to suffer and they weren't meeting the deadlines on this new contract. It was a government contract that they had won. And that's when I got to come in and be a big part of it with them to better understand how this innovative, future focused, young organization all of a sudden is struggling. And what we found was that the innovation and the creativity that had really driven the culture of the organization came from being in that one room space where they had started.

20:43And now they were separated and they weren't connected in the way that they used to be in this new office space. And it was fascinating how once we shifted things around and gave them the space to be connected and be creative again together, not in silos, that that performance and productivity just shot back up through the roof. And so what we're really saying is that that support that the entire organization needed, even though they came at it, you know, some were excited, some were not, they all needed that creativity and support to be innovative and future focused.

21:23And it was driven by their ability to be connected, which I think is a fascinating, fascinating scenario. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or want to share any of that, your thoughts in that space.

21:41No, I mean, I agree with you. I do think that's fascinating. And I mean, I also think, and I know we're going to get into some of the personality stuff here too, you know, but for me, you know, this, this connection to attachment theory, I think is, is a really interesting one. It's one that's, I know, near and dear to Bob Hogan's heart as well. Right. This notion that it's about, well, I mean, part of the notion there is that some people would approach change more comfortably than others. I mean, that would be a big finding. And I, again, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves.

22:12I'm sure we're going to talk, but talk about this as well. But, but those are the kinds of things that come to mind for me.

22:20Yeah. So let's, let's, let's get into the personality stuff. So oftentimes, you know, Victoria, people chalk up resistance to change, particularly from an organizational standpoint. For some reason, is it like a communication problem or failed leadership? Like that seems to be where the fingers get pointed. But based on my research, you know, I, I did, you know, leading up to this episode, you seem to think, and I'm pretty sure that Ryan and I would agree as well, that it's a personality phenomenon. So can you break that down for us?

22:52Let's, let's, let's dig into the personality. I do think it has a personality, I do think it has a personality component, but I think it's deeper than that. I think it is, I think we can take this back, you know, to a identifiable space in our early developmental literature around instinct and biology, right? So I think that there is a really interesting literature and research that would highlight how strongly our predisposition to attach is formed during our early years, not dissimilarly from, from our personality and how that evolves.

23:42So certainly, you know, so certainly, you know, there is a complementary relationship between the two, especially during those early years. But I think it's really fascinating to look at the data that helps us understand more about what happens in those early years or different personality characteristics that really lend us to be, to be more willing to, to change versus being a little bit more readiness to, to accept change.

24:18And I think that's a really interesting space. Tell me a little more about how you, you know, kind of what you've read, Blake, and what you're thinking about the personality and the, the intersection between the attachment behavior and attachment theory. I'd actually be curious to get Ryan's thoughts on this, because this is where, this is kind of his, his wheelhouse right here. So let's, Ryan, what do you, what do you, what's your take? Well, I mean, I certainly do think that, you know, well, I mean, I think there was a professor somewhere who said basically all problems are some communication problem.

24:53I'm not sure if I totally agree with that, but the communication is very clear. It's just a disagreement on, on what the outcome should be. But, you know, so, but I certainly do think that lots of, of change or even some of the resistance to change things can be managed better through, through, through better communication. I know that's so that we've got teed up a little later on as well. But from a personality standpoint, again, this is where I, I, I touch on, you know, this, this topic of, of attachment theory, which again suggests that certain people would really have a strong reaction, strong negative reaction change versus other people would feel more comfortable with it.

25:34Although I do think, you know, attachment theory would tell us that everybody feels some sort of anxiety or some sort of stress, increase in stress when there is change. But it's about how do they react to that increase in stress that, that shows those individual differences, sort of securely attached individuals are, are, are, are, even though they experience that stress, they're more likely to react in a, in a positive, proactive way around that or to, or to sort of be resilient against those stressors.

26:10Whereas people with sort of an anxious avoidance style are more likely to sort of fall apart under those, those kinds of circumstances. So if we're talking about change, I mean, this is where you're going to see very emotional reactions, you know, typically high, highly intense reactions right away. Whereas people with more of an avoidant attachment style are more likely to sort of shut down in the face of change based stressors. Maybe they'll just hunker down and focus on their own work. Perhaps they would even consider applying for other jobs or leaving an organization, but doing so in a much more quiet way rather than doing it in a sort of emotionally reactive kind of way.

26:51Is that consistent with the kind of work that you, that you, that you have, you found, Victoria? Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's a very good overview kind of of what the different attachment styles look like. And, and attachment styles are an important part of how we evolve. Going again, back to, you know, our early years, our developmental psychology years. And it's super interesting to me to really look back at, you know, the time period between zero and five and kind of the amount of change that you've experienced and how you've interacted and connected with other individuals during that time.

27:33And how that really does have a very interesting influence on the attachment style you have as an adult. And I love the example that you use for, for the dismissive attachment style. And the reason I like that is because those individuals are, are oftentimes very skilled at finding the, the, the space where they will be more comfortable. And so they find that object, they find that support mechanism.

28:06We call it a strength anchor. And that strength anchor is what really helps you reset when you feel that initial uncertainty or instability or anxiety related to a change. And the dismissive, interestingly, personality, I'm sorry, attachment style is oftentimes very, very quick to find that support mechanism. Secure is also tends, tends to do that very well.

28:39But interesting thing about the secure is we've had some, some great opportunities to, to do some work around the secure styles. And what we are seeing is that over a population of about 20,000 sample size, we are seeing a very distinct cluster of different types of secure. And those different types of secure then manifest, pardon me, themselves a little bit differently in terms of what they tend to gravitate towards to provide themselves support.

29:18So really, really interesting to bring up the styles. And there is so much, Ryan, in that space to be understood and explored. And what we're talking about, you and I, is not leadership style. It's not, you know, a personality per se. It is truly how you, as an individual, use the environment around you or your internal environment to feel secure or not, you know, when you're experiencing some kind of change.

29:55So attachment style is a fascinating space to exist in terms of really wanting to understand what's going on inside that change, that change space. So I love it that you brought that up and that highlighted that. You know, okay, so my next question, I'm going to rephrase it a little bit because I think we have touched on, you know, earlier on about what, you know, it's not really the change that is, you know, upsetting for people or, you know, you know, causes any of that stress or whatever.

30:29It's more about the loss that comes with it. And then you were just, we were just talking about like security. So why is it that logic doesn't outweigh these things? I mean, like, or is it something that just takes a little bit of time before the logic finally comes into play? What's your thought there? Because sometimes, like you said, some of these changes are actually going to make their job or lives better. But it may be that point A to point B and what's involved in that change process that's problematic.

31:03But how come people tend to react and allow their emotions or, you know, that concern about the loss outweigh the logic of this is actually better for me? Blake, I think that is brilliant. I think that is a great question. I mean, you guys have really, and this is great. I love this conversation so much. I think that, I think that it has so much to do with how you feel like the change is potentially happening to you or if it's happening with you.

31:46And let me use another example. So I got to do a project with a government organization up in Vermont, and they were losing a leader. Everybody was super depressed. It was a relatively small team, 182 people. So not too big. But they were super sad about losing their deputy director. And everyone was grieving, if you will, and not really understanding why, because it was a celebration, because this individual had worked for this organization for 35 years and done his time.

32:25And it was great. And he loved it. And he did great things. But everyone was so profoundly sad. And they couldn't really understand why they were so sad or what it was. They wanted to be happy for him because he was excited to be moving to the next phase. But they were having a hard time reconciling, being happy with being sad. And one of the things that he did that I think was just genius was he acknowledged openly to the organization that they were sad.

33:02And that seems so obvious. I mean, that seems like something everybody would do. And that's oftentimes something leaders think they do, but they don't, right? They're not doing it in a way that really helps their teams. So the way he did it is he had a big all-hands meeting, and he created what I will call, what I will, it's a toy, but it was, it's a stress reliever. And it's something you play with in your hands.

33:34But instead of just giving out the, it's called a tangle, so it has a name. But instead of just giving out these tangles, he had them personalized. And he had them personalized with the organization's mission and value. And so it was if to say to all 182 employees, I understand this is going to be a challenge for all of you. And you need to remember what kept us together.

34:05It wasn't me. I'm not the glue. The glue is you. The glue is the mission. The glue is the values. And through these simple little, you know, $3 toys, he was able to create a culture that flourished at a level even more productive, more innovative, more effective in his absence than it was before he left. Because he empowered his people to believe that they could do it on their own.

34:39And I mean, that seems like such a silly thing that you would need to recognize outwardly, openly. But I've worked with so many organizations over the last 15 years that fail to do that. They fail to bring everybody to a place to say what is hard, acknowledge it, and then talk about how to build it back up. And that's creating, I mean, he gave everybody in that audience a transitional object. He gave them their strength anchor, an anchor that they could rely on.

35:13And it wasn't just the toy. It was, again, the mission, the values, the importance of what they built, the culture of the organization. Does that make sense, Blake? Oh, yeah. It makes perfect sense. Ryan, you got any follow-ups to that? Well, I mean, I think it's a really funny thing in some ways as well, given what we know about attachment theory. I mean, right, the history on attachment theory is that it typically started with small children and about attachment to mothers or parental figures. And, you know, it's been extended into romantic relationships and into the business world as well.

35:47But, you know, but the transitional object, you know, for infants was, you know, you might remember, may probably, you had an object like this, you know. Well, I did. Yeah, some like a little blankie or some people who've had children have certainly, or it may perhaps with a brother or sister, you remember turning your house upside down to find said transitional object that was lost. And we couldn't leave the house until that transitional object was found, right? So I think that's really an interesting and somewhat amusing scenario where this leader provided these transitional objects for people.

36:28I suppose one thing that comes to mind for me is that this is almost turning an emotionally, potentially negative event into an emotionally positive event. That's what also struck me about that story, Victoria. So it's recognizing that this change is going to have a create an emotional reaction, but trying to turn that emotional reaction into one that's more positive in nature. I mean, easier said than done, I think everybody wants to do that, but the way this was done, I think was really impressive.

37:00What do you, how do you think about, or what do you think about that notion of, of trying to turn this from a negative emotion into a positive emotion? I mean, Ryan, I think you are spot on. I mean, it is fascinating. And I'll tell you that experience led us to do a really interesting analysis over a set of data that spanned 16 years and about 273 different federal agencies and really look into this idea of the intangible transitional object.

37:35Because even though he gave them toys, it wasn't really the toy that was the transitional object. It was the mission and values that was really the transitional object when we really dug in as we kind of watched the organization evolve over time. And so it's super interesting to me to understand, and a classic example, which has, it just resonates with me and it's so recent, is the way NASA values, mission and values.

38:06And so what we saw when we kind of dug in and we started looking at these 273 different agencies and really started to try to understand the ups and the downs, we, this idea of mission and values, but it can't be mission and values that are not called out. So mission and values can be overused and overtaxed in terms of being a support mechanism if they aren't called forward in a positive way.

38:39So I think your note about the positive side of this is really interesting and really watching how NASA over the course of the last 50 years has constantly come back to the idea around everybody that's part of this organization is working to put a person on the moon or to Mars or to whatever. I mean, it's, it's bringing that positive, take us to the next stage, the next space, the next event that really is the important part of calling it out.

39:12So I love that that was so prominent to you in the story because that's, that's right, Ryan, that's exactly right. And that's what leaders and consultants and managers are not doing is helping their people get to that space where they, you know, find that object tangible, intangible, they can provide that support and turn what feels like it might be a negative into a situation that is, you know, showcasing the positive.

39:46So I love that that resonated with you. Well, Victoria, my assumption is that probably a lot of the leaders that are out there today in a, in a leadership position, um, I'm going to guess most of them probably don't have, you know, books on the shelf about attachment theory. Um, you know, maybe I'm wrong. That's just, that's an assumption, but so, uh, you know, but how organizations and leaders introduce change, it really can have a huge impact on how it's eventually received.

40:20So let's say for that handful of leaders out there who are familiar with attachment theory, what would be a kind of a best case scenario or, or like, uh, a good case study in how one might roll out that change differently to have a more positive, allow it to have a more positive impact. I think that is a great, great question. Um, my brain starts spinning around with lots of different ideas.

40:55And so I want to kind of package it, um, in a way that maybe we'll, we'll make, um, make the most sense. I think the, if I had a one piece of advice to give leaders and consultants and managers, it is not the framework because I don't really, I mean, I don't believe that there's one framework that if you use it every time you're going to have a successful change. I just don't believe it. I think that the framework that you use to guide the process needs to be specific to the organization, to the change and to the way the people that are collectively, the organization, um, are going to be impacted by the change.

41:39And so I, I almost think that the framework is something that has to, you know, kind of be, uh, created each time or for each type of change. However, I do think that a fundamental level of awareness for observing behavior is something that everyone can do. Every leader, every manager, every supervisor, every employee can be aware and observe the behaviors around them of what is important to, to, uh, different individuals.

42:14And so let me give you, um, let me give you an example. So I work, um, a lot of the work that I've done has been with hospital systems. Um, and that kind of started back in the, uh, early 2010s as it related to the integration of, uh, new electronic medical record systems. And what we saw was that different employees in different spaces risk and it did age doesn't matter.

42:46I always hear that. Oh, it has to do with age. No, it doesn't necessarily have to do with age. It does have to do with other demographic factors. And it's, you know, again, unique to the situation and to the individuals. But what we saw was that for one set of individuals that were more clinical in nature, that offering a specific type of training and education, what didn't have the same appeal and didn't provide that same level of support that it did to the non-clinical employees in the organization.

43:22And so we had to create a different way of interacting and training, teaching, educating, um, the entire organization about this new system. And I think that, um, that observation from the leadership team, um, that was managing the project was really significant. And it was super quick into the process of the change integration that, that, that, that, the, the, the trainers realized that it wasn't impacting all people the same way.

43:57And they were able to course correct, if you will. And I think that observation, that awareness of the role that attachment plays in the workplace, this isn't something that we just needed to focus about in kindergarten or, uh, on the way to kindergarten. And this is something that is part of our biological, it stays with us through our entire life that we, we, as leaders and supervisors and managers and organizations and coworkers need to think about like what these attachments look like and be more aware of it.

44:35So that word observation, becoming, you know, being an observer of human behavior, I think can be an enormous, um, game changer in terms of, um, you know, watching how it's impacting those that are being, um, directly, um, in, in the path of the change. Does that make sense, Blake? Or does that answer your question? Oh, no, I know that absolutely makes sense. Um, Ryan, what, what were your thoughts?

45:05Yeah. I mean, well, one thing that came to mind for me here, Victoria, is to, typically when we think about attachment theory, we think about it as, as attached to a, a person, right? I mean, in childhood literature, there's always attachment to, to, to a, to a parental figure. And then the romantic literature is a romantic partner. Even in the organizational literature, it's mostly about like a boss or a manager or a leader. But I, I wonder, you, you got me think, wondering about sort of attachment to ideas or, or attachment to organizational standards or policies.

45:42And that got me thinking about things like, uh, some changes we're seeing with organizations around remote work versus in-person work. And, and, and how, uh, our attachments, you know, one argument would be that, well, in-person work allows people to build those sort of attachments to other individuals versus it can be more difficult to do remotely. But another argument to be made for seeing whatever the policy is, being attached to that policy, I don't know if people have that same kind of, I, I, it strikes me that they wouldn't have quite that same emotional attachment to it.

46:17But I, but I just really don't know. So, so I'm curious, Victoria, what do you think about this notion that people can get, be attached to a system or a policy or some set of procedures and that changes to those procedures disrupt that attachment? I don't know if that's really a thing or not. Oh my gosh, Ryan. I think it is totally a thing. I mean, I told, I think you are just, yes, you're hammering that nail hole. And I think that is, you're, you're spot on. I really think that is one of those components of this discussion that is so underserved.

46:53It is so overlooked. It is something that when, when we talk about change with consulting teams and change management processes and frameworks that, you know, that, that intangible idea, that mission, that commitment to mission, that value that's associated with, you know, working in a certain way. I mean, we see it so significantly in organizations that have safety cultures and that's not just hospital systems.

47:28That can be, I've had the great fortune to work with utility companies, even nuclear power plants. And those cultures are so, you have to be so careful. Safety is such an important part of interacting with those cultures. And I think it was probably out in California, the first time I visited a nuclear power plant, where I actually understood that unsaid safety culture in a way that I never had.

48:01Even being in a hospital, I recognized it once I saw it at the nuclear power plant in the hospital systems. But it wasn't as obvious to me until I experienced, I experienced it like that. And so I think the question that you ask is brilliant. I think you are spot on. I think that is an incredibly important part of recognizing what is important in an organization to the people who are collectively the organization.

48:32And they're the ones being impacted by the change. You know, I often tell my students in my MBA class, which I coincidentally have tonight. So I'll have to tell them a little bit about our conversation today. But I often tell them about people like Steve Jobs and the type of leader that Steve Jobs was. And it wasn't Steve Jobs, the leader that people were attached to. I think it was the innovation and the future focus and being a part of something revolutionary is what people wanted to be a part of.

49:13That's what they were attached to. And, you know, I think it's fantastic that Tim Cook has been able to, you know, continue that legacy, not the person, but the idea and that innovative spirit that is, I mean, it's difficult to recreate an innovative spirit like that. I don't know if you have thoughts about that or if you have ever thought about, you know, it being the spirit of innovation, not the innovation itself that could be an attachment object.

49:43But I think that's a really interesting space.

49:48Well, I mean, I think the Steve Jobs reference is a very good one because I think you're right on because honestly, he probably wasn't that pleasant to deal with on a personal level, but was able to, people were able to overlook that for like kind of what I would consider the greater good or, you know, like what he did, he transformed. I mean, if Steve Jobs didn't, didn't, was never born, where are we today? I mean, I mean, seriously, like where are we without what he did, but so that's, that's easy to buy into and I can see how people can definitely get attached to that.

50:27So that's a great example. But I want to transition a little bit from leaders now to, you know, something else that we work on a lot at Hogan, you know, and that, that has to do with teams. So I'm curious about team dynamics and what happens when you have a mix of attachment styles on a team, like a different, like, you know, maybe certain, you know, certain people have different attachment styles on this particular team. And what happens whenever they go through change? How does that, how does that look? I think that's a great question.

50:58I think it's a super, super important question. And I think similar to, to how I believe that understanding personality is a really important component of being part of a team. I also think understanding attachment style and, I mean, powerful, I can't even tell you how, you know, what I think it would be to be able to look at a potential research study where we know personality and attachment style and we can, you know, even do some work around correlation of the relationship between those two.

51:30Wow, that, that sounds like exciting research. But anyway, back to your question around, around attachment style, I think that understanding who's on your team is to understand the attachment styles. I recently worked with a team that was awesome in that it had a representative from all three dismissive, preoccupied and anxious, and then two of the three secure styles.

52:05So that team worked incredibly well together, but it took them a minute. It took a little bit of time for them to get used to my, I'm sorry, their preoccupied person, not mine, their preoccupied individual, and that that individual needed to have or feel constant connection with the other members of the team. The dismissive person on that team was pretty much like, I ain't over this need for connection. But once she realized that the need for connection in the preoccupied individual, which happened to be a male, which I loved, is the fact that, you know, we sometimes have stereotypes even attached to some of the styles.

52:48And this was definitely the opposite of what I have experienced people expected in the past. It was fantastic because once they realized how to work with each other, it became just a powerhouse team. But it took a minute. And so I often feel like organizations put a team together and just wanted to perform. So go do your thing instead, maybe given a little bit of time and space and some type of activity that allows for identification of those styles, maybe even identification of the personality piece too, to really be able to understand what makes the most sense for how this group is going to work together optimally.

53:42I mean, I think that's an amazing question. I mean, from a change perspective and experiencing a change, especially if you're on a team that is going to be significantly impacted by the change of the organization, taking that time to really understand who is part of your team and what does it look like to be part of this team, I think is a really important component. What are your thoughts on that? Well, Victoria, you know, part of it, when we get asked about teams, we are often asked about this mix of the right personalities.

54:18And while there does seem to be something intuitive about that, empirically, it's really hard to find any evidence that, oh, it's this combination of personalities. And I feel like it probably has to be the same thing with attachment as well, that I couldn't say, oh, this is the right combination of attachment styles that you want to have on a team. I suppose I would think about it more from that team dynamic perspective of, okay, these are the folks that we have. What is that?

54:48What are the implications of that for team dynamics? These are the attachment styles on the team. How is the team going to operate? How are the team members going to communicate with each other? How are our mission or how are decisions going to be made? How does, is it sort of, what's the attachment style of the leader and how does that impact the relationships between the individuals with the leader of the team? Those are the kinds of questions that I think I would be asking in a team setting. But I don't know, does that resonate with your experience working with teams or have you found some magical formula that works?

55:25Yeah, no, I don't think there is a magical formula. I think you're right. I think you're spot on with that. I think the magical formula is to take the time to understand who it is that you have on your team, right? And to really, I think you're, to your point, I think that it's critically important to know who you're working with. And to understand what aspects of being a part of a team they value and what aspects of being a part of a team might not be the most comfortable experience for them.

55:59I think those are, what you said, I think is spot on. I think it's just, there isn't a magical formula. There's not a perfect combination, if you will. I think it comes back to that observation that we talked about a little while ago about understanding who's on your team, about understanding who's part of the group and really how they contribute and what makes them feel supported, what gives them strength, what anchors them to whatever the mission is of the team or the task of the team, if it's not a mission per se.

56:35Anyway, I think you're spot on with recognizing that there is no magic bullet, if you will, or magic formula. I think it is instead important to understand who's sitting at the table, maybe is a good way to say it.

56:53You know, so this next question, Victoria, I'm asking this one because when we mentioned Jason Blair, you know, good friend of the Hogan family. Um, he, uh, he introduced you to us and recommended you as, you know, Hey, you should look into this. And we saw the topic that he proposed and we thought, Oh yeah, this is a good one. We haven't talked about really. Uh, so he indicated that you and him are looking into potential links between attachment theory and Bob Hogan's socioeoanalytic theory.

57:26So I don't, I don't know how far you are down the road on that. Is there anything you can share with our audience on this front without spoiling too much? I think you all are planning something more public facing later. So you don't have to, you can just give us the movie trailer.

57:42Um, thanks. So I definitely, um, yes, that is correct. Jason and I have been, um, working in that space and talking about, um, the relationship or the intersection really, um, is more. It's not really, it's more than a relationship, right? I think it is truly an intersection where attachment styles and attachment behavior is so focused on understanding the individual. And Bob Hogan's work around socioeoanalytic theory is so focused on the team and the group and really understanding more about how understanding attachment styles.

58:21And, um, knowing what your attachment style is, being able to, uh, affirmatively, uh, help folks be able to, uh, look at their attachment style as it relates to others, I think is really, really important. And we are, you know, doing a lot of work, um, and some, uh, development of an assessment to help quantify that, if you will, but not just quantify it in a, oh, this is what you are, because I don't know that that's, that's always helpful.

58:56Instead, quantify it in, okay, this is what your attachment style looks like, but let's take it to the next level. And let's really look at what your attachment style looks like in relationship to the different attachment styles of the people on your team. And what does that mean? Like how, how does an individual that has a dismissive, um, attachment style relate to an individual that has a preoccupied attachment style? Like I talked about a little bit earlier.

59:27Um, that's a really interesting mix there, but to be able to understand more about how those two interact, I mean, I think it's brilliant. And it really frames, um, some of the important characteristics to understanding who your team is to be sure that you can support that team the way they need to be supported moving through change. Does that answer the question? I think it does, uh, Ryan, you, I mean, you know a lot about socio-analytic theory, so what, what, what's your take on it?

1:00:01Yeah, I mean, I think one of the clear intersections between these two has to do with, with relationships. And of course, this, this draws on, um, you know, um, even other theories as well. And, and Bob Hogan would say that, that socio-analytic theory isn't just something he came up with. It draws on several other theories and combines those theories together, but I think one of the key intersections between socio-analytic theory and attachment theory is about relationships, is that it's about life is about those interpersonal relationships. Those interpersonal relationships that we have are really critical from, from an attachment theory perspective.

1:00:34It's all about the relationship with some attachment figure, whether that's a parent or romantic partner, uh, an individual at the workplace. And it, you know, I think attachment people often think that, you know, that means some sort of love. Uh, I mean, it partly depends on the definition, right? There's different definitions of love and those kinds of things, but, but it's about some relationship, right? That there is some relationship and socio-analytic theory the same way says that, you know, that life isn't done in public. It's done in those relationships.

1:01:05Yes, there are things that people go do in private, but many of the things that we do, many of the things that we think about, many of the behaviors we engage in, in private are done for social reasons, are done for those, those, those relationship reasons to improve or, uh, increase our standing, uh, among our peers and in our social relationships. So to me, that's the main area of intersection where you see these two is that they both say, Hey, much of social life or much of our lives is about those relationships. And, and I think that's, to me, that's what the key intersection, that's where they, they both put them front and center.

1:01:39Victoria, any, any thoughts on that? I mean, Ryan, I totally agree with you. I think that is exactly why I think it is so interesting to be able to help people understand what that, what that intersection, what that relationship, what it looks like. And, and why, when, when, when you, um, are a, uh, let's see, a decisive, secure individual, and you are very specific about the way you would like a change carried out, that a preoccupied individual who's on your team might ask questions.

1:02:20Might want to know why, might want to connect about it, and instead, as that decisive, secure, you, you don't get annoyed or agitated by that because you understand that that preoccupied individual is very focused on connectivity and relatedness, that you take the time to help make sure that they are informed in a way that is helpful for them. It doesn't need to be, you know, it doesn't need to be an individual, um, you know, meeting per se, but it could be just through a town hall where you, uh, you know, you can inform the multitude of people.

1:02:56So I don't want folks that are, um, listening to think, oh my gosh, this sounds like it's so laborious and it's going to take so much time. It really doesn't, right? It can be done in a way that address, um, what big groups of people need in terms of support, um, during, during that change. I love, I love that. I think that was a great, um, way to say it, Ryan. So thank you. Well, Victoria, this has been an awesome conversation, but I do have one last question before we wrap this thing up.

1:03:29And, you know, that is, if a leader listening to this podcast could only do one thing differently to improve how their team responds to change, what would you recommend?

1:03:46Um, that's a loaded question, Blake. I, you can, you can add, you can add more than one thing if you'd like, but I, I wanted to see what, what that top one might be. If you had one, I mean, I think that top one is really to understand how you provide your team with, um, that transitional object, that strength anchor, that object that carries you through. Or gives you the confidence, the commitment, um, the clarity to move forward in a way that you recognize that even though it might feel uncertain and it might feel like you were, are, there's a loss happening.

1:04:29That once you get to, um, you know, out of the transitional space into the space where, um, the change is becoming more normal, um, that in fact, you will be, um, you will be able to, uh, to return to the, to, to the way you felt pre the change happened. Or maybe you evolved to a new way of feeling about the organization because of the innovation, because of the change.

1:05:01I'll give you a quick example of that. So when I went from work on March 13th, 2020, we were sent home at George Mason, um, to teach, um, from home. I struggled for, for several weeks, um, with my routine. I was doing the same thing. I was getting up at the same time. I was getting, sitting at my desk. Um, but I was doing it all at home. I wasn't going to work. And it was really interesting how I struggled with, um, what I eventually identified as my commute time.

1:05:35And that commute time was that space where I transitioned from, you know, my personal life into my work life. And I had to re-identify, uh, what that transitional space looked like for me as I was, um, staying at home and, and not having to go anywhere. What could I do to have that transitional space that would give me the support I needed to leave personal behind and go to work? And it was really, really, uh, important exercise.

1:06:07And as we have turned back, I've had to, I've had to do the same thing in reverse order, like not having, um, you know, the time to walk in the morning or, or do it at a different time of day. Um, as I, as we've gone back to work and gone back to, to more and more in-person classes, it was definitely, you know, a reverse order. So I think it is, um, the most important thing I think the biggest takeaway for leaders would be to take the time to recognize that you and everybody that works with you need this, um, the support that comes from a transitional object or a strength anchor or, or however you want to call it.

1:06:49Um, and you really need to take the time to identify that, that I think that has, uh, a power to really influence the change strategy, whatever framework you pick. Does that make sense, Blake? Oh, it absolutely does. I think that's a great way to put it. Uh, any closing thoughts, Ryan, before we get out of here? I think that's absolutely, uh, really great advice. I also think, uh, you know, this, this, what is that strength anchor, right? When you're going through a change, a process, try to identify that.

1:07:24I mean, it's such good advice, Victoria, to help, help organizations try to identify what is that strength in there? What is the thing that isn't changing, that's staying the same, that you can feel anchored to, you can feel secure about. I think that's amazing advice and, um, really appreciate having you on here today to share this with us, Victoria. This has been wonderful. So thank you so much. Well, I thank you. Thank you both for the great opportunity to talk with you and, uh, to, to have this fantastic dialogue. As you can probably tell, this is probably my most favorite thing to talk about.

1:07:58So thank you both for the opportunity. Well, thank you. And I think our audience is really going to enjoy this episode and, uh, appreciate you coming on. All right. Thank you guys.

1:08:10And that does it for the Science of Personality podcast, episode 148. Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative episode. Cheers, everybody.

1:08:22This has been the Science of Personality podcast brought to you by Hogan Assessments. You can access all episodes on our website, thescienceofpersonality.com or on the streaming service of your choice. See you next time.