Hogan Roundtable

Welcome to the podcast

0:00But the other way I think is in how we are sort of like a family, maybe like a weird, mildly dysfunctional one at times. But I don't know if you can see behind me, but those pictures on my wall, I have my children, my husband, my dog, and I have Chris is up there, Jennifer's up there. These people are my family at Hogan, and there are a few others up there as well. But I think that we are a company who cares deeply about our work and our customers, but also each other. And,

0:32you know, I shared a little bit at the beginning about why I came here and why I was kind of fell in love with Hogan, the company, the concept, the mission, but different things at different points in time have kind of kept me here. People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on earth. Personality psychology is about the nature of human nature. It's about people. And wouldn't that be useful to know?

0:58Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality podcast. I'm your host, Blake Lepp, and I'm joined again by my co-host, Jackie Psalm, for a conversation with two special guests. First, I'd like to introduce Christopher Duffy, Hogan's Director of Strategic Accounts. Chris has been with Hogan for almost two decades, and during his tenure, he's worked directly with some of the largest companies in the world and continues to do so. Our other guest is Jennifer Lowe, Hogan's Director of Solution, Delivery, and Learning. Jennifer, or J-Lo, as we commonly know her at Hogan, has also been at Hogan for nearly 20 years, working closely

1:32with a variety of clients in the public, private, and government sectors. So when you combine Chris, Jennifer, and Jackie's time at Hogan, we're talking about nearly 60 years of experience, experience. And that's exactly why we wanted to do this episode. Today, I plan to tap into that knowledge, expertise, and Hogan longevity so they can share their stories, whether it's their favorite client projects, their biggest challenges, or just some of their favorite tales from their time at Hogan. So strap in and get ready for a fascinating journey through Hogan history and lore. But before we

2:06get to our conversation, if you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes, or you want to ask us a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality.com, or drop a comment on this YouTube video, or follow the Science of Personality on LinkedIn. Now, let's get to it. Chris, Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before we get started? Hey, thanks, Blake. When I got the initial request, I couldn't believe that it had been almost 20 years since I've been at Hogan. Over that time, I've had the privilege of working with some

2:37amazing clients, some extremely talented colleagues. So I was really happy to see our topic today, and we get to share some of those experiences, especially that I got to share the stage with Jennifer, because she and I have shared many of those experiences along our journey at Hogan.

2:54We have indeed, Chris. Blake, Jackie, thank you for the invitation. Really looking forward to the discussion today and the walk down memory lane. I know we're trying to keep it PG today. There can certainly be some interesting stories here at Hogan, but really looking forward to sharing the journey with everyone. Well, Jackie, I mean, you've worked with both of these people for a while. So what were your thoughts whenever I brought this idea to you for this episode? Yeah, I mean, first of all, there are two, there are no two other people I'd rather sit around a

3:28campfire with and share stories from yesteryear. But more importantly, there aren't two other people I'd rather jump into a foxhole with than these two that are sitting right here. So we've really been through a lot together, the good, the bad, the unspeakable, and everything in between. So this is going to be fun for us on, on multiple levels, but also just really, really enjoyable to, to take a walk down memory lane together. Well, I mean, I've been at Hogan for 12 years. And so whenever I got

4:00to Hogan, I mean, the three of you seem like really seasoned vets and, you know, now I'm here 12 years, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you know, but you all feel like, kind of like that. I know, but it still feels like, I think now that because I have the shortest tenure at Hogan at 12 years compared to the two or the three of you, it almost feels like you all are part of that, that old guard, forgive me for saying old. I don't mean that in the, in the, the age, uh, uh, context, but I actually

4:31just mean that because, you know, you all, you all had already seen a ton of stuff by the time I got there. And, you know, I didn't know anything about this field and I've learned so much from, from all of you in, in this time. So I appreciate that. And I appreciate you taking the time for this. So let's jump right in, you know, Chris, Jennifer, I mentioned in the intro that the two of you have been at Hogan for quite some time. In fact, you're two of the longest tenured employees in Hogan history, not just who's at Hogan now, but who's been at Hogan before. So that begs the

Why we stay at Hogan

5:05question, what is it about Hogan that's kept you here for so long? Thanks, Blake. That's a question that has definitely required, um, you know, some reflection. It's been, it's been a long journey and, you know, I think probably similar to Jackie in a lot of ways, we have, we've grown up at Hogan. The organization has really changed and evolved. Uh, when I started at Hogan, I think there were 40 employees and the vast majority of us, um, you know, sat in one building, um, and spent, you know,

5:36our days sharing offices and collaborating. And I think that's one of the things that really continues to keep me at Hogan is just the opportunity to work with really amazing, brilliant, creative people, um, who continue to challenge me every day. Um, it really has been an adventure. Our, um, client engagements, um, really give us the opportunity to think about how we're going to apply the assessments and, you know, we continue to, to grow and evolve. So for

6:09me, it's been about, you know, the continued challenge and opportunity. And even after 18 years, each day is, is kind of starting anew, something new and different to look forward to.

6:21Yeah. Thanks Blake. And the only thing I'd add to that as well, I have a kind of Hogan profile to tell you, I'd never be at any one organization for almost 20 years. I like variety. I like change. I like challenge. And I think those are all things that Hogan has provided to me over my career. Jennifer was spot on. We work with some of the most talented people in the entire industry. We solve really complex and challenging problems for our clients. So I think just that continued, uh, feed of those values is really what's kept me here at Hogan. It's kept me extremely satisfied.

6:56And really, as I think in reflection, it just amazes me that I've been here as long as I have been. And as I was, as I was preparing for this particular session, it made you realize that we have accomplished a lot over those 20 years at Hogan.

7:11It's funny you say that. Jackie, what about you? Yeah. I was just going to say, I, we didn't corroborate on this, but I was going to share that for those of you who are Hogan certified, I have very low security, single digit, very low tradition score. So I'm the kind of person you would not expect to stay at a company for two years, let alone, you know, almost 20. So, um, same, same, Chris. I think when I think back on what, why, why I'm here, what drew me here, I, I recall with such crisp, um, recollection,

7:47the first day I walked into the building at Hogan and it was the, it is a very unusual and in my opinion, a wonderful culture at Hogan at that time. And it's changed a little bit over time, but there are some things that have stayed evergreen. And here are these people walking around in blue jeans and flip-flops or sneakers. And they're some of the most brilliant minds in the profession, but they come as they are. And they're dogs running around the building. It's, um, it's a workplace where you get to be yourself and yet you are challenged every single day by,

8:23to Jennifer's point, the creative, brilliant people, both inside our company, but also the clients that we work with are just tremendous. We, we call many of them friends in addition to colleagues and customers. Um, and you know, despite the fact that it was this casual come as you are culture, you get out on the road and you get in front of customers and here's the same person who were flip-flops yesterday and they're standing in a three-piece suit and just, just dazzling the, the crowd at a presentation or a conference. So, um, it was this, this juxtaposition that was

8:59really fascinating to me. And then beyond that, the content itself, you know, what we work with, the science of personality to me, I think to many others, if you're listening to this podcast, you may, uh, be in good company with, uh, with the four of us here, but it's endlessly fascinating. I am learning constantly every single day. I always find something new to be intrigued by or some other facet of what we do to, to go down a rabbit hole and do research on or, or think deeply about. So I think, um, it's one thing to like the mechanics of your job,

9:34but it's another thing to have a, like a deep intellectual connection with the work that you do and the, and therefore the people that you do that work with. So I think that's a huge part of what keeps me here. And I, um, and I think many others share that and the last thing I would say, and I'm, I think, you know, Jennifer and Chris are just getting warmed up here, but I know for a fact, cause I've worked with these people, two people very, very closely over these 19 years, um, our purpose. And we were very mission directed company. And I think that's a huge part of what draws people

10:08here, but also what keeps their commitment to the organization. You know, I want to echo something Chris said, and I think, um, you know, you mentioned values, uh, specifically, and, you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm, I've been at Hogan for 12 years, you know, that's still quite a while. Um, I came out of college or, you know, university, whatever you want to call it. And I spent my first five years at a, at a PR agency in Tulsa. And I was like, okay, that's a good start. You know, I got a lot of good experience, but a client hired me as a marketing director at a, at a bank. And I went there, thought I was going to love it.

10:43I'd worked with them for two, three years. I got there and I didn't know anything about values at the time. I didn't, I didn't know anything about Hogan. And I was only there for a year and a half. And I was, I got bored, something wasn't clicking and the opportunity at Hogan presented itself. And I interviewed and I, it felt right for me to leave. Um, the, the job I was at, even though I was only there a year and a half, I didn't know until after a couple of years at Hogan, I realized my values weren't aligned with that organization. You know, you know,

11:16think of a bank, you know, think high commerce, maybe high tradition. Well, I'm single digits on both of those. And I didn't know that at the time. And that's looking back, that's the reason I was the fit for the job from a tech, like from a, if you look at the bright side of the HPI, you know, you look at that, I was a good fit for the job, not a good fit for the organization. And it was better for both of us to go our separate ways. So, uh, happy to be at Hogan, happy to be having this conversation. So let's move on to our, the next question, you know, Chris, Jennifer, the two

Memorable client projects

11:47of you have countless client stories. I mean, I can't even imagine, I mean, I don't even know most of them. Uh, so I'm actually kind of like the, the listener, part of the audience here. I'm, I'm curious if you can, you know, there's some client stories you can share, some you can't, but, uh, would each of you mind sharing a story that stands out as particularly fun or memorable? Yeah, sure. Blake, I'll get us started. Um, I've had the privilege of working across a pretty diverse client base over my career at Hogan. Most of that work in leadership development, executive selection, executive development. Uh, but about six years ago, we had the opportunity

12:21to start working in professional sports. Um, and it's been a real fun and interesting departure. It started with, um, we inserted Hogan into the NFL draft. And so for the last six years, we've been part of the NFL draft and it's really, really interesting to take passion of what I do at work and transfer that into something that I'm very interested in on the personal side. And so we've seen that expand and that grow. We're part of helping many NFL teams select and, um, maximize

12:51performance of players that they have on their team. We've helped a handful of teams, make sure that they have the right staff on board and that staff has awareness around those players, how they best coach those players, how they best, uh, again, maximize performance that expanded into the, uh, NBA. So our work in the NFL got us into the NBA. So we've been supporting for the last three years, the NBA draft, um, helping organizations and teams make selections on players as they bring them in and consider the culture and the dynamics of the team.

13:22And then most recently we've expanded into the major leagues as well. So, and it always fascinates me when I think about client stories is that we go into organizations, we've one of these different disciplines, these different sports, and we think that the challenges are different, but in many cases they share very, very similar challenges. And so we're able to kind of transfer some of that knowledge that we've learned in one professional sport to help teams across, uh, other professional sports. So over the last really six or seven years, it's been, it's been a fun departure from

13:53the norm. And I think we've made a tremendous impact and it's always fun to see, um, the results of our efforts play out in front of us, uh, in, in, in the national audience and TVs on the weekend. So, so it's been a fun departure. Kayla, what about you? Oh, I was just, you know, thinking about what Chris was sharing and, you know, so much of the work we get to do is really focusing on the, you know, the all-stars, whether it be on, you know, on the football field or in the C-suite. And one of the more memorable client experiences that come

14:26to mind for me was, was really all about that. So large, um, consumer packaged goods organization, you know, a client that everyone on this call has, has engaged with at one point in time or another, um, really entrusted us in thinking about their, their next generation of leaders, really developing their high potential talent across the enterprise. And what was so memorable and really fun for me about this client engagement is it embodied all of the things that are so important to me at Hogan.

14:58We're able to bring our science into this organization and support leaders through, um, you know, what might feel like an NFL combine, right? They're coming together, they're, um, you know, they're engaging in interviews and they're on stage and they're, they're going through coaching and 360s. But as a client team supporting this organization, it was so much fun to see the, the evolution of these cohorts, um, you know, session after session, and also the time we got to spend

15:34together as consultants, as coaches to this client. Um, you know, these were, these were long hours and long weeks. So a lot of time spent on the road together, really working through the talent review process. Um, but knowing at the end of it, there's such a huge impact, um, supporting those and, you know, getting a voice in this process, providing some really meaningful coaching and development as they continue to grow and, you know, in their own career as, as all-stars. Jackie, you, you were on

16:09the client side. You have to have a story for us as well. Yeah, it's funny. I'm noticing a thread here, um, across the three answers. And I, I didn't know what Chris or Jennifer were going to say today, but my story, what's similar about it to what I've heard from these two is it involves a client who bring, who has brought us in as a true partner. So it doesn't, you know, sometimes this is true. I think in any business, if you're, some of your customers treat you like a vendor and some of your customers treat you like a partner or even a, a trusted advisor, sometimes even closer than that,

16:46you know, a family member. Um, and the customer projects that these two have described, I happen to know a little bit about, about each of them. And it's, it's examples like that, where we really get brought in and we get to not just create a much deeper impact, but we get to see the, that impact and get to see it over time. So Chris gets to watch it play out on live TV every, you know, Monday and Sunday, but in Thursday now, and you know, Jennifer, the project she's speaking about, I, I had a chance

17:17to be a part of that as well. And it, it's still top three, um, in terms of my client, most memorable and, uh, treasured client experiences. But the one I'm thinking of was very similar. It was one where I was brought in over a very long period of time in a large manufacturing organization and the products that they create have a tremendous impact on human safety. So they, their products are involved in transporting people all over the world. And so leaders, you know, Dr. Hogan has this expression

17:51that is very simple and straightforward, but profoundly true, which is leadership matters. And we believe that wholeheartedly leadership really does matter, but when, when you're, you know, dealing in a company like this, leadership matters in a, on a level that is hard to even wrap your head around where, you know, the decisions that they make have life and death consequences in, in some cases, or, you know, have impact, impact on the world economy in ways that, you know, it's, it's hard to really,

18:22um, come to grips with the, the breadth and depth of that impact of their leadership. And it's not to say that the one Hogan assessment they took is going to, you know, change all of that. But, you know, in a lot of cases, we are a part of the decision process. We, we advise these clients on, you know, who is the best candidate to lead this, um, you know, this organization into the future and why, or what, um, what development needs do they have that could, that could stand in their way and how do we help fill those gaps? So, and in many cases,

18:55you get to see the impact of what you've done play out maybe not on national TV. I don't, I've not had that yet, Chris, but, um, on, on the news for sure on primetime news, sometimes you see both the positive and negative consequences of what leadership decisions are, what impact leadership decisions are having on the world. And sometimes that is, um, incredibly encouraging, right? You see a leader that you were, you were part of their development journey and you see that they're making a positive impact in the world. I've other, I've also seen other situations where there was a leader

19:30that, you know, we predicted would struggle and would have, you know, major development needs. And then they end up in the news for not so good reasons. Right. Uh, and that, that is, it is those kinds of projects that I always come back to and, and, and think about when, when I'm asked questions like this. You know, that's, it's crazy. The common theme I'm seeing here is like, this is high stakes stuff. I mean, and that's why, you know, people might think, oh, we can't afford to invest in this type of thing. But when you're talking about, you know, these large corporations or these, um, these athletes

20:05coming out of college, you know, with the NFL or something like that, I mean, the getting, making the wrong choice is way more costly than, than, you know, finding a well-validated personality assessment to actually put people through. I'm not going to sit here and just preach Hogan, but, you know, we just say well-validated, you know, pick, pick and choose what you want. We think we're the best. You can, you can make your own decision on that, but you can't let that, that, uh, cost be the

20:35barrier to entry for this whenever the stakes are so high. And I think it's really cool to hear that you do all this. And Jackie, like you said, watching primetime news, you know, I'm not on the client facing side so much at all. Um, but I do hear, you know, things here and there like, oh, we were involved in this or that. And then to hear my friends talking about, can you believe how great this person is doing at XYZ organization or my gosh, have you seen this? And I can't say anything, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh, well, we told them they shouldn't have picked

21:09that person or, you know, or, or like, yeah, or Hey, yeah, that was our choice. So that's, it's so cool to see that you're right. It's the, the magnitude of what the work you all are doing

Challenging client stories

21:17or have done is just incredible. Okay. So I'm, I'm none of these projects come without challenges. I mean, some of these things aren't easy. They're complex. What we do is complex, just the nature of it. Uh, so I'm, I'm curious to hear, you know, from, from all three of you, Jackie, you thought you were just coming in as kind of the host here. You're, you're just as much a guest as Chris and JLo are. So, you know, what, what about challenging projects? Would you mind sharing a story where you encountered obstacles and maybe how you got to a successful solution?

21:53Like I can kick us off here. Go for it. You know, when you, you mentioned, you know, this is really high stakes work. And for many years in my time on the client facing side, I did a lot of work in talent acquisition space, um, and really supporting organizations and key talent identification and succession and so on. And that can be some of the most rewarding work in terms of, you know, as you mentioned, putting a validated solution in

22:24place. It's really going to make an impact. We know what the cost of a bad hire is. It's a lot. It's not the first year salary. Um, so these can be really challenging discussions, especially in situations when an organization, you know, says they need one thing, but they're rewarding something else. And that is a very common challenge, especially as you're starting to think about different levels of leadership within an organization. One of the stories that, that stands out, uh, for me here

22:59that ended up with a very successful ending, um, was the opportunity to work with this financial services client as they went through their journey of, you know, everything from, um, competency alignment and looking at competencies as it connects to leadership roles, to really understanding key talents, um, from director to, you know, C-suite in the organization. So we'd spend a lot of time doing, you know, tremendous research, getting an understanding of what key stakeholders said were

23:30important for success for the role, collecting performance data, uh, you know, getting a sense of, you know, what the assessment data looks like for those who are currently in role. And we reach what happens a fair amount, which is the conversation where we say, these are the things we said are really important for success, creative, innovative, change agent, make it happen. These are the things we're currently rewarding, practical, pragmatic, operational focus. Um, and this happens, this happens a lot.

24:01And the aha moment that came in this conversation with the client was, Hmm, this is why we keep bringing people in to be change agents. And within six months or a year, they're leaving the organization and they're saying, you know what, you're not ready for me yet. Um, and, and I think that is a reality in a lot of these situations, but the beauty of Hogan's process here, the research process is we start to unpack these things and say, where's the gap between what we

24:34say we want and we need and what we're rewarding and how do we create the path to make that happen? Um, you know, this is a, this is a client who has been, uh, you know, a Hogan friend of the family for a very long time, um, and continues to leverage us. So it was definitely a success story as we started to unpack, how do we get from what we say we want to where we are? Um, but it is a really common challenge in this case. And, you know, using the assessments and the job analysis process as a point of awareness were really critical. Chris, what about you? Yeah. You know, it's interesting.

25:09Mine ties pretty close to what Jennifer talked about here, but I had a, uh, a large client that we'd supported for quite some time, global organization, um, consumer goods, and they'd gone through a shakeup at the top end. So some changes in the board, they had just appointed a new CEO and the board and CEO had identified that, um, they didn't feel they had the leadership characteristics that they needed to sustain their evolution in the future. Stock price would have told you this organization had been stagnant. Investors were a bit skeptical about previous leadership's ability

25:42to evolve the organization to keep up. And so they went on a pretty big journey to say, uh, we need these types of things, change agent growth mindset. We need to digitize the organization. And the CEO and board were convinced they didn't have the right people in the organization to do that. Now we've been in this position with many clients in the past. So I came into it with a hefty dose of skepticism. And after about a two year process, assessing close to a thousand leaders across this enterprise, I sat in front of the CEO and said, you don't have a people problem.

26:15I said, all of these capabilities that you've outlined is critical for your success show up in the collective Hogan profile of the people that you employ. What you have is a systems problem in the 150 years you've been in business. You've created a processes, systems, governance, and controls that just prevent the natural capabilities of your people from shining on a day-to-day basis. So it completely reoriented the challenge with which this client was trying to achieve. And if they'd continued down the path of fighting the internal talent and trying to mix and change

26:51that talent, they would have missed that no matter what they did to evolve the capabilities, skills, and capacity of their teams, they would have missed the fact that they had systems in their organization that were going to prevent any of that evolution to occur and change. And it was amazing to me how fast this situation changed once they had identified the clear problem. Once they'd identified the clear problem, they went on a pretty systematic approach over the next couple of years. Investors gained confidence, stock price rose, and even to this day, they still

27:24continue to be the benchmark in their industry for the way in which they operate. So it was a very challenging scenario or situation, but it ended in a really rewarding insight from the value in which we provided to the client. Yeah, so it's so interesting listening to Chris and Jennifer's answers because, again, I swear we didn't corroborate going into this, but we have some real similarities here. So when I think about some of the challenges in client projects, it involves finding a real,

27:55something very unexpected or a real complexity in the research or the data that we were using in solving that client's problem. And a lot of these complexities deal with leadership, right? So in one example, we found that the personality characteristics that predicted getting results, both in terms of operational and financial metrics, were inversely related to the things that produced engagement and the softer side of leadership. So in essence, the leaders who were great at driving

28:30for results were driving people away from the company, driving people out of their functions and organizations. And in the examples that Jennifer and Chris, and now the one I'm sharing, the challenge involved telling the organization something really hard, a message that they maybe didn't want to hear. The aspiration that you have for where you want your company to go or the leadership you want your people to have doesn't match with reality in Jennifer's case. In Chris's example, it was

29:02identifying a deep systemic process problem. In my case, it was upending their entire performance management philosophy. And those are not easy messages to deliver. But it's kind of this combination of finding something really complex and unexpected in the data, and then leveraging that to have an uncomfortable, but ultimately, maybe transformative conversation with that that organization. Well, very cool. I don't I don't really have a good challenging client client story, unfortunately,

29:35because most of them, I'm actually probably the challenging client, because I work with an external PR firm, and they probably got a call with them right after we get done recording this. So I'm the challenging client here. So we can just go ahead and move on. And they can tell their own story on their own podcast. But, you know, each of you have worked closely with Dr. Hogan throughout the years. So I'm curious, what's your favorite memory from your time working with him? Because anybody who knows him knows that he is quite the character. So I'm sure you all have something interesting to tell. I don't

Working with Dr Hogan

30:05know, Chris, Jennifer, which one you want to go first? Yeah, Blake, this was a hard one. There are so many stories over the years to kind of whittle it down. But sometimes the simplest stories create the greatest impact. And that's where I landed on this one. Dr. Hogan and I share a love for automobiles. And every year where he lives, there is the Concours d'Elegance in Amelia Island. And I was there one year. And we were both there examining all of the vehicles, what's happening, what's going on. And they're just some amazing works of arts across the various examples. Beautiful

30:40Mercedes Benz. These are pre-war examples of handcrafted automobiles. And I could spend hours looking at these vehicles. But later that evening, we were having dinner and he asked me, he said, OK, out of everything that you saw today, what was the best? What do you think was the best example? And I know I got into a pretty impassioned reaction to this because it was clear to me. There's an automobile that was made in the US called a Duesenberg. And everything on it is a

31:10work of art. And I can remember specifically describing a fastener that they had. And I talked about the placement, the way it was articulated, angled, that every little detail on this simple fastener was so precise and so well thought out. And when I stopped, Dr. Hogan looked at me and said, that's exactly how I feel about a single item on our assessments. He said, people tend to think it's a random group of words thrown together or that they're just grouped together. He said, but that's exactly how I created our assessments. I moved words. I recreated things.

31:43I tested things. I adjusted. I changed. He said, so much effort and energy went into each and every item on our assessment. And I realized at that moment, that's why we have the impact we do. That's why when someone says to me, how do you knew that about me or where in this assessment did you see that? When you hear that that level of care and intensity and passion went into the original development of what we do here at Hogan, it gives you a clear picture as to why we deliver the impact we do at

32:15an individual level for those that take our assessments. It's funny, Chris, that's not the only example of he's so obsessed with so many different kind of examples of precision engineering. So it's it's funny to hear you share that one, which I didn't know about in particular, but that's such a thread. Interesting. Yeah. Jennifer, what would you say?

32:38Yeah, my story takes a little bit of a different twist, maybe a little more personal in nature. I don't know that we've talked about the Hogan dogs just yet. Maybe mentions that they're running around the running around the building. That's definitely an artifact of the old building and in the building of today. But when I first started at Hogan, my office was just right down in the hallway from our team and Joyce and their dogs, Willie and Grace, Jack Russell Terriers with lots of

33:15attitude came came to the office every day. And you knew Willie and Grace are really important stakeholders. And you need to make sure you're navigating those relationships very carefully. But at one point in time, the new puppy Bubbles came to the office. I don't know if you all remember Bubbles, but I was trying to leave our our office area at one point. And we were in a building where everything was very segmented. So I walked past our team and Joyce's office to to leave the area. And

33:51Bubbles, a young Jack Russell Terrier came running after me and, and, you know, trying to to get out the door. And I'm very, you know, as someone who was, you know, I don't know that I was even full time at Hogan yet, still maybe an intern. And I'm turning and very carefully trying to say, no, Bubbles, it's okay, you stay here, you know, I'll be right back. And RT gets up and walks to the door. And since we're keeping it PG says bubbles, you little rascal, you know, come come back here. And it was one of my most memorable interactions with him, because this this is a legend in our

34:27industry, someone you you read about and you study and, you know, and you have a standing room only event at SIOP just to to get a moment with him. And here we are, you know, talking about dogs and, you know, just a very human moment that really stuck.

34:50You know, JLo, it's funny, you were as you were talking, my Jack Russell, I could hear him walking, pacing outside the door of my room right here. So Staley, I can hear you. But Jackie, what about you? Yeah, I was thinking way back, I've gotten a way back machine to think about this question. And it's funny, because so Jennifer was describing the old Hogan building when we were still really small. And the Hogan's worked in the same Dr. Joyce and Dr. Hogan worked in the same office,

35:24and they work sort of back to back, you know, and spend their chairs around and talk every once in a while. And I realized that a lot of my memories of RT, we sorry, we call Dr. Hogan RT, uh, casually and within our, our own company. Uh, a lot of my favorite memories of RT or Dr. Hogan actually involve a memory of Joyce as well, because you almost always interacted with them as a unit back in those days. And I was a kid, literally a kid. And I think luckily for me, I was too young and stupid

35:57to realize how impressed I was supposed to be about the Hogan's. I didn't yet know what legends they were in our industry. So I had no fear or hesitation of just entering their office and asking them questions, which looking back, I'm sure was really annoying to them, but was tremendous for me. I mean, I was learning at the speed of light from them, but also on the job. And it was just a wildly exciting time in my, in my growth as a person and professionally, but you'd walk in there and you could ask them

36:29anything. They would stop what they were doing and give you their time and attention. And among the many things I went in there to ask them about, one of them was advice on graduate school and whether to go full PhD or stop in my master's degree. And of course, both of the Hogan's are doctors. They're the doctors Hogan. So I kind of anticipated the answer would be, of course, go get your PhD, but they disagreed. And RT said, you absolutely should go get your PhD. That gets you credibility

37:00in every room and, you know, access to, you know, just opportunities and, you know, networks that you might not get if you don't do it. And, you know, it's a, it's the credential and Joyce, although she was a PhD as well, she said, stop at your master's because I, you know, I was, I was in school and working for Hogan at the same time. Don't tell TU it was against the rules. Um, but I, she said, you'll, you'll be getting your degree at the university of Tulsa, but you'll be getting your

37:30education at Hogan. And ultimately I listened to Joyce and she was right. I mean, I was getting my education at Hogan and for anybody who has that opportunity to be in, getting your, your advanced degree while doing the work that you're studying. It is the best way to learn. It was tremendous. Um, and there are times when I think back and I regret not getting my PhD. Um, you know, often, in fact, I regret not doing that, but I think, um, I think about that memorable advice from both of

38:07them and later, much, much later. So I had to ask for recommendation letters from the two of them for grad school. And, uh, you know, you're not supposed to look at those. They stay sealed and you send them out and you don't know what they say. They could say, Jackie's the worst and don't ever consider accepting her in your program, or they could say something great. So I was a very, you know, I was a good steward of the, that process. And, but much, much later when I was moving from Tulsa to where I live now in Tampa, I found those letters. I had a few extras and you print a bunch

38:42and you seal them up and then you end up sometimes with a couple left over. And I thought, well, it's been a long time. And it was after Joyce's passing and I, I opened them. So it's confessions, true confessions. I opened them. And Dr. Hogan, Dr. Robert Hogan's said, it was like one sentence and it was a very powerful sentence, but it said, I recommend Jackie Van Broker, which my maiden name, um, without reservations, you know, just a very clear, like you should take her. I accept, you know, I recommend her with no hesitation, but Joyce's, which, you know, Joyce was kind of a tough

39:17cookie and she, she had kind of a tough love leadership style, but her recommendation letter to me was so thoughtful and so, um, detailed. She had clearly gone around and talked to everybody that I had ever worked with or for and what kind of projects I contributed to. And it was so well reasoned. And, you know, of course I started crying at that point, just, um, thinking about the time that she took, despite the fact that she could be a little, um, a little tough on the surface,

39:51but just cared so deeply underneath. And in both cases, I'm sure that's what helped get me into grad school was, was the recommendation from both of these kinds of luminary people in our field. Well, I've, I've got one myself, so I have, I have had the, the opportunity to interact with,

Memorable business travel

40:06with RT, uh, on a fairly regular basis. And Jackie, me, it's no surprise that you said it was like one sentence was a powerful one. That's kind of like his emails. I mean, we've all seen them. They're very short, but he can say a lot in very few words. And you know that like it to take it seriously. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Uh, he's they're direct, but, um, you just have to see it to believe it. But my story actually is he came in, you know,

40:38living in Florida. I never got to meet Joyce, unfortunately. And that's the one regret I have. I wish I would've got to Hogan a little earlier. Um, but he came to me and we were sitting there. It was while we were actually in the office, you know, full time. And he came up just, you know, you never know whenever he walks in, he just gets off the plane. He just goes straight to, to Hogan HQ. He walks in, you don't know who he's, he's targeting. And I was targeted that day and he came, stopped by. He said, Blake. Yeah. He said, Blake, uh, we need to train our,

41:16our people here to, to speak better and do better presentations. Um, there was this firm here in town. They, they trained me several years ago. It's called schnocky term bow Frank. Call them, ask them, see how much it's going to cost to do this presentation training, speaker training for our consultants. I said, RT, I, I worked there for five years and actually did that training and facilitated it. And he said, great. We don't have to pay a ton of money. We'll keep paying your salary. He said, get this going. And, uh, I didn't, I mean, of course, when he tells you to do something

41:50like that in person, um, you get the ball rolling, you get going. And, uh, a couple of months later launched it. I, I mean, and now I bet, you know, that was probably eight or nine years ago. And I, I bet, I bet, you know, we've put 50 to 60 people through that, you know, cause people don't, you know, Hogan's not always their last stop on their career journey. Some, you know, so anytime we got a new batch of people in, I, I'd set up another training session and the, the session still lives on today whenever we need it. Um, it's not as frequent, but, but yeah, that, that's what he came to me.

42:24But when he came and told me to do something like that, I, I made sure I made it happen and hopefully, hopefully I succeeded, but we'll, yeah, I went through your training, Blake, and it was memorable. I still think back and use some, some of the things that you, you taught us. And I think Chris and Jennifer went through it too, if I'm not mistaken. And, you know, we had been giving presentations for a long time at that point. And I took, I still took a ton away from it. So yeah. Do you guys remember that Jennifer or Chris, did you go through it?

42:54Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, like you structured it in such a way that was really kind of getting at who we are when we're sort of off the cuff, um, and also, uh, you know, a more structured format. And it was just really interesting to say, like, where's our comfort zone and this, um, and you gave me some really meaningful feedback that I'm, I started with me today when thinking about, especially in a longer engagement or presentation, just kind of, you know, managing my breathing and my, my pace. So Chris, I don't know if you ever made it. I don't know if you

43:27made it through. You were, I'm sure I was on the road, Blake. I know actually get to sit through it. I had plenty of people that worked under me that went through it and spoke very highly of the program. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, you were, you were, you're, you are the road warrior, which is, I mean, that's perfect segue into the next question that I have here because, um, I mean, all three of you have traveled a lot for Hogan, um, a lot more than I have. I mean, I've done a fair amount, but you all have been on the road a lot, um, traveling in numerous cities, states, countries for Hogan. So what's the most memorable trip you've taken on the Hogan dime?

44:01I can kick us off. Like, I know, um, I haven't spent quite as much time on the road as Chris, but, um, there is a trip that comes to mind and I feel like I've spent quite a bit of time in the way back machine. So I want to share a story from about this time last year. Hogan has a diverse business model. So we work directly with customers. We have distributors in more than 40 countries. And in my current role, I have the privilege of working more closely with these

44:32distributors in terms of implementation of learning content and so on. And last year I had the opportunity to spend about a week in the UK meeting with all four of our distributors. Um, so I was supporting Jackie and the, and the product team, um, to really do kind of a road show, if you will, on our newest product Helix. Um, so this involved training each of the distributors, getting everyone up to speed and really just the opportunity to connect and engage. Um, travel for Hogan is always a wonderful

45:07experience, whether you're, um, you know, surfing on the, the plane train with Chris Duffy, um, you know, to, to go see a client, um, or, you know, anywhere in the world of meeting with our distributors who are just an extension of the Hogan family and have such great knowledge and insight. And this trip was, was a lot like any other Hogan trip, definitely an example of work hard, play hard. Um, the hours are long, they start early. There's a lot of technical content, um, with audiences who, you know, in a lot

45:42of cases, our distributors have been, you know, doing this work longer than those of us on this call have. Um, so really, you know, meeting with people who were true experts in their market and the field and getting the opportunity to engage and share some new insights and also have a little fun, um, along the way. Um, this trip in particular was, um, with one of our regional directors, Maya, and we have the, you know, planes, trains, automobiles, and boats experience, right. By the time we covered all four distributors in the market, really kind of, um, hitting the road all over the

46:16country. Um, but then also finding some time for, for fun and experiencing local culture, restaurants. Um, so that really stands out as a more recent memory. Yeah, I can, I can add to that, Jennifer. Um, I, I relish any opportunity to be with clients. What we do at Hogan is such a human experience. And I think more and more as, as we move forward in this world, that human experience is going to become more and more valuable. So I, I, I cherish any opportunity I can to be with clients and especially

46:46with leaders and have the opportunity to, uh, work with leaders, leadership teams. In this particular case, uh, I spent a week in Istanbul, uh, Turkey, and, uh, we had done a series of about 12 different team sessions across this entire enterprise back to back. It was an unbelievably challenging week given very little breaks, very little rest, but also probably the most rewarding trip of my entire career. Had a colleague with me. Um, and she, she stuck there with me as well, but the end, we did have

47:18some time to actually see the city. And if you haven't seen Istanbul, Turkey, it is an amazing place, fantastic food, fantastic people. And just from a historical perspective, so much to learn and so much to see. So delivered great impact with the client, but to satisfy some of the needs from us, from a hedonistic perspective, we got to see parts of the city, had some fun along the way, uh, and came back exhausted, but also extremely rewarded from that trip. Jackie. Yeah. So when I think back over the trips I've taken, a lot of the most, uh, rewarding have been two very unglamorous

47:52places because, you know, it was more about the work we did there or the people I was with. So I'm thinking Cedar Rapids and Omaha and Rochester and white plains and no offense to the people who live there. And I'm sure it's, you know, those are wonderful places, but they're not exactly tourist destinations, but your question was more about the place, our favorite place. And mine was also a recent international trip to Paris and Milan with one of our, uh, distributors

48:23internationally aware that operates out of both of those countries. And they asked me to come out and deliver some segments of a leadership program that they were running. And the place they hosted this event was a very old castle. Um, I think 12th or 13th century castle that was converted into a beautiful training, you know, state-of-the-art training facility and conference center. And so you're sitting in this truly ancient room and it, it, they've preserved, you know, the old sinks

48:57and, you know, um, plumbing and it's very cool place, but there's state-of-the-art technology all around. And I got to participate in this program. And for somebody like me, one of the things I miss the most in my current role is that direct interface with clients and delivering these programs to, to people. So a lot of times Jennifer and I are designing them, but we are not always the ones delivering them now. So that was just, you know, scratching an itch that, uh, I miss

49:27a lot, but, um, also the setting was just truly, um, like something of a fairy tale or a Disney movie. It was just such a beautiful location. And the people I was with at this distributor aware and the clients that they had brought in were all just really amazing people. So I had, I had a pretty magical time there. Well, I mean, although you all have traveled more than I have, uh, for Hogan, because I mean, mine doesn't require that much. Um, I'm going to have to go, I mean, I have been to

49:59Dublin. That was really cool, but I'm going to pick, uh, the distributor summit last year, Miami, uh, I, for, for a few reasons. So, um, first off, there were so many Hogan people there. And so it's fun to, to be on the road whenever, you know, you have what, there were probably like 20 Hogan, uh, employees there. I mean, minimum maybe. I, and then you have all of our distributors there, which was awesome. Just getting to interact with all of them in one place. Plus it was,

50:32it was Miami, which to me, I think that was also the other part of it is I never had any desire to really go to Miami. I had only been through the airport on the way to the Bahamas. And I was like, ah, this isn't a place I really care to go, but I guess if work's going to send me, I'll go. And it really beat my expectations. Um, the food was incredible, but I think the best part was that I was going down and the whole point was for my, uh, initial reason for going down was to record

51:02some, uh, podcast, uh, little mini episodes with the distributors. And, uh, at the, as we started that discussion, it was like, okay, well, we're going to get Blake like a, like kind of like a suite so that he can have like a living room area where he can have distributors come up and, you know, do that. But, you know, that was early on in the process and the planning. And then, um, next thing you know, we've rented a studio where we're just going to have them there. And so I arrive at the,

51:33the hotel, just normal thinking, you know, I'm getting in a normal room and, you know, there's people there in front of me and they're, they're getting, they're, they're checking in and they give them their card and they, they go up to the room and then another person gets her card. They go up to the room. It's my turn. I get up there and they're like, sir, your room's not ready. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, they're doing the inspection right now. And I'm like, what are they inspecting? Like what's wrong with my room? And, uh, that suite never got canceled. Um, so my room ended up being the, the, the really fancy suite that we were supposed to do

52:08the podcast in, but there was no need for that. But the view that we had was incredible. And it was also what, what, uh, that it was the Oriental, the Mandarin Oriental where it's, it's gone now. I mean, that they, they demolished that just like a few months back. So we were one of the last big groups to go through there. And, uh, so it was just a, a technical error somebody made or they couldn't cancel that room. And that's what I ended up with. And I'm not, um, you know,

52:40what's that, what's that? I just got lucky, you know, just got lucky. Uh, but the next one, uh,

Living the Hogan values

52:50let's get back to the values that we discussed earlier. You know, if there's two values that really embody Hogan, um, you know, hedonism and altruism would probably be at the top of the list. So what's your favorite story that exemplifies one or both of those values? Yeah, I can start us off Blake. Uh, this happened very early in my career at Hogan and it really helped me realize how prevalent our culture is and how prevalent these values kind of permeate across the organization. And I really believe values are what retain people and keep people

53:22in an organization. And this experience really helped solidify how important these things are to me. Um, but I'll, I remember it distinctly. It was in Seattle helping the client. And this was early in my career at Hogan helping a client. They were having problems with the transition of software engineers into leaders or managers. They were really struggling. And we had realized that some preparation of those individuals through maybe some strategic self-awareness with our assessments could help. So we had developed a customized solution for that, um, and put it in place. But on my way

53:53home, I'd stopped and had some food. And, and at the time Joyce Hogan, as was mentioned earlier, she managed all of our expense reports. And the week later, after I'd finished out my expense report, um, I was called to her office for some questionable charges on my expense report. And I came from an organization, a manufacturing organization for us at Hogan early in my career that, um, when I sat down for a meal, I had two credit cards, one that paid for my per diem in food. That was the company. And then any extras, whether that was a cocktail or dessert or something that

54:26was, I paid for that personally. So I was used to that world. But when Joyce called me into her office, she said, I want to know about this charge here. And I kept looking at my expense report and I couldn't figure out what she was talking about at all. And so finally she says this one, Taco Bell. She says, what are you doing eating fast food when you are traveling for Hogan? She said, do you find a proper restaurant? Not that, and I love Taco Bell. Look, I'm not, Taco Bell is one of my favorite places to eat. I still eat there. I just don't expense it. Yeah. It's fantastic. It's

54:58amazing. But her point was we work hard, we play hard. And so when you're traveling, uh, part of why we travel is so we can have face time with our, uh, our customers. We do amazing work and our reward for doing amazing work and driving the impact in organizations is to enjoy ourselves. So the work hard, play hard was really hammered home early for me. And I think it's something that I really embrace and appreciate about the Hogan culture. So still to this day, I find a proper

55:29meal, proper drink and, uh, and, and, and very pleased that we're in the position to be able to do that when we work with our clients. Chris, I love that work hard, play hard example. And that's an example that really comes to mind for me too. What really, um, stood out and, and thinking about this question was the selling Hogan to Hogan onboarding experience that everyone on the consulting team used to have, um, which I think we all remember pretty well. And it has evolved a bit.

56:01And like, I think your presentation training is maybe even another evolution of, of this onboarding experience, but selling Hogan to Hogan was essentially, um, we'll call it an onboarding experience. It was hazing. Um, where new, new consultants did not matter how long you have been on board typically within like the first week or first month within role, whenever the next

56:33consulting meeting was happening, um, um, were required to put together essentially a Hogan overview presentation. And the rules were, you could use anything on the, you know, at the time, which was the F drive, um, you know, any shared resources were available. And if you were lucky, you had one contact on the consulting team who you could engage to ask questions, to make sure you were, you were on the right track. I remember this experience as a terrifying one. Um, you know,

57:06just not knowing, is this the right depth of the content? How many slides should I have? What's expected? Um, how difficult will my audience be? And this would happen on our Friday consulting calls. Um, so I remember going through my presentation and the, um, and the group was, was pretty kind, um, during that time, but there was a celebration after the fact, um, our Friday at the time or Friday afternoon, um, lunches were almost always at a fabulous local sushi restaurant. And there would

57:38be a celebration for this experience, um, over the years. And even as I became a manager on the consulting team as well, we carried that forward into a role play experience, maybe with a little more onboarding support. Um, but I just, that really stands out to me because it was, it was fun, definitely work hard, play hard. And it just, it really expedited your growth. And, you know, in thinking back to our earlier question about why are you still here? Um, you know, one of the things

58:09about that experience and so many at Hogan have been about just taking a chance on people. Um, I was regularly thrown into the deep end probably before I was ready. Um, but that taught me so much about who I am as a person, who I was a consultant and a leader today. I was thinking back on, um, you know, the, the story that Chris shared, it was like a moment in time, but there were also rituals that were a reflection of exactly that same value that he was talking about. And I think what,

58:43what that conveys to people is I, we have a lot of trust in you. So we want, we trust that you're working really hard and our sort of recognition of that or the freedom that you get around that is this permission to enjoy your colleagues and, you know, have fun. So we had a kind of a ritual of every Friday afternoon. If you're, you know, your client load and your work was in a good place, we would hang out together and just, you know, have a beer and, and be in the conference room and

59:14share stories and lessons learned about things that were happening in the business and just connect as people. And I think the altruism comes out in a number of ways at Hogan. Some of it is in the, our, our roots as you know, our, our company was, was born out of, it was founded on principles of social justice and making the world a more fair place to try to find work and, and, and be employed at a time when that was really not in style. So the assessments were developed in specifically

59:48to make the world, you know, to have more equitable access to, to opportunities. So that's one way altruism plays out. And that's really, I think, deeply meaningful to all of us. But the other way I, I think is in how we are sort of like a family, maybe a, like a weird, mildly dysfunctional one at times, but, um, I don't know if you can see behind me, but the, those pictures on my wall, I have my children, my husband, my dog, and I have Chris is up there. Jennifer's up there on my,

1:00:21these people are my family, um, at Hogan and there are a few others up there as well. But I think that, um, we are a company who cares deeply about our work and our customers, but also each other. And, you know, I shared a little bit at the beginning about why I came here and why I was kind of fell in love with Hogan, the company, the concept, the mission, but different things at different points in time have kind of kept me here. And I'm going to, I'm going to embarrass Chris

1:00:52for a moment here, but I, I worked for Chris for a long time and he's the best boss I've ever had. And he, um, is very early on. I had, I had quite literally just accepted a full-time role at Hogan as coming out of my, you know, part-time graduate school, part-time intern experience at Hogan, which was really more like a full-time intern experience. And right around that time, I learned my dad had just gotten a cancer diagnosis and, um, I lived,

1:01:25I was raised in Tampa and I was living in Tulsa where Hogan's HQ is at the time. And it was, he really needed somebody to be there. And there was, wasn't really anybody else at the time. My sister was pregnant and turns out you can't be around people who are going through radiation when you're pregnant. So she, she couldn't, um, be that person for him, even though she was local. And I just, I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm going to have to ask this, but I have to, I have to go be there for him for a period of time. And I went to Chris with no expectation that,

1:01:59you know, they would, you know, they, I expected that Hogan would probably resend my job offer and make me reapply at some other point in time, which would have been totally understandable. And I felt so terrible about doing this. I was like, Chris, I'm so sorry. I have to go home for, I think it's going to be a few months, but I don't know. It could be longer. I just don't, I don't feel like I really have a choice. And he sort of interrupted me mid-sentence and was like, you don't worry about a thing. You just go and you take care of your family.

1:02:30And when you're ready, your job will be right here waiting for you. And I, I gotta tell you, that is not, um, that's not a thing. That's not a thing that people get from their employers and that commitment to me, you know, and, and, um, support of me during that time, which, you know, by the way, he's healthy now, uh, and he's in full remission as far as we know. And he has been for years and years. And that time was, I mean, I, I can't, that you can't put a price or value on that,

1:03:07um, or the value of an employer who, you know, who treats people that way. And that's, that's one small example. I think Hogan has made many of those kinds of investments in people, but it felt like, you know, there's a commitment here to me and it's really inspired a commitment in return. Sorry, Chris. Yeah. Oh no. Thanks for sharing that story, Jackie. I remember it like it was yesterday. And I think it's something I've always been proud about being part of Hogan in a world that's driven by KPIs, money, return on investments. We've had the opportunity to put a

1:03:42line in the sand and say that we care more about humans and people than we do those kinds of things. Now, of course we want to do amazing work, but it's about doing amazing work through people. And I think it's a story that really exemplifies how altruism not only impacts our clients, but that we practice it and preach it here at Hogan. And it's very fundamental to the fabric of who we are as an organization. Gosh, Dusty in my room. Sorry, y'all. Um, well, um, I'm not crying. You're crying. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I had a couple of different directions.

1:04:14I, I wasn't sure. I kind of want to hear you all first before I even kind of, but, but I'm, I'm going to go ahead and talk about the one, you know, I was, I had a hedonism example and altruism one too, but I'm going to go with hedonism on this one. And this happened just recently. And, um, it was whenever we were all together this last time at the town hall and Jackie, even at the start of it, you were like, Blake, are you, are you good today? I was like, my social battery is worn down. You know, like it had been a long week at that point, but we were doing our Hogan game day, our summer camp or whatever you want to call it. It was a, it was a fun time. And we have all these

1:04:48new people. Cause like, yeah, you see so many, um, new faces cause we're had, we're, we've grown so much, but, and I think through the years, you know, it kind of felt with that growth and then, you know, us not being in the same place with each other as much. It, it didn't feel quite like the Hogan that we maybe knew. Um, and we're going to talk about the old building here in a second, but that day it did, you know, like it was, everything kind of came back. Like I'm getting goosebumps just

1:05:25thinking about it, but like, I even, I, I remember like trying to take in the moment and I, I even went up like up top and kind of took a picture down, uh, at everybody who, cause you could just see everybody having fun. And I just remember telling people, I was like, this is, this is Hogan. Like, like, you know, we might've had some growth and, you know, we don't get to see each other that much. We might not even know a lot of these people all that well, cause there's so many of us now, but we were all on the same page that day. And that was all about having a good time,

1:05:57enjoying each other. And that is what, I mean, a culture like that isn't built overnight. I mean, a culture like that takes the almost 40 years that we're at to really come together. And that was just a special day. And I hope we have more of those, but that one, it felt, it felt good that day. So I hope you, uh, and Chris, I think we all felt that way, Blake, it was, uh, it was, and you know, COVID in the middle of all of that as well, where people were

1:06:27just spread all over the world in regards. And if we were prevented from coming together, which was such a core component to the Hogan culture. So I, I agree with you with it. And I had a very similar experience, uh, at a Hogan camp this summer. Yeah. Well, hopefully we'll just, we're going to do an AI version of you in the outfit you're wearing as the camp counselor. Glad I could play my part. Yeah. You played it well though. Uh, okay. So, uh, we're, we're getting

Stories from the old building

1:06:55close to bringing this in for a landing, but, uh, you know, Hogan's current HQ is a state of the art facility. It came, uh, it opened in 2015, uh, in downtown Tulsa, but, um, you know, most of those employees today, that's all they've known, but the four of us were lucky enough to get to just, I only got to work for like 11 months in the old building, but it was memorable, but you all had more time there. So, you know, tell us your, your favorite little story from the old Hogan HQ in Midtown Tulsa. Well, Blake, since we were just talking about Hogan summer camp and game day,

1:07:28I can kick us off with my story here. Um, Hogan game day actually started a long time ago, um, in the old building. And the, the first one is probably the most memorable for me. Um, and then we can also talk about why Chris Duffy is the MC because he's won too many years in a row. Um, so now he gets to MC game day. Um, but the, that first game day was, um, you know, what was so

1:07:59much fun about it is the informality of it. We played minute to one at games. There were a lot of ping pong balls and tissue boxes and in cups involved. Um, you know, what we can do with all of those things. Um, and at the time we were in a building where we were sort of back on our own. Um, there was a, you know, a big parking lot that we kind of took over for this game day and, and just spent, spent time together. Um, there was competition. We, we learned very quickly,

1:08:32you know, what our own and our colleagues strengths and weaknesses were in these games. Um, but there was really just so much camaraderie, um, and it, and it really started the like official Hogan t-shirts too. So we all had our game day shirts. Um, we had our, our prizes. Um, there are probably some other good pictures of, of Duffy that we could turn into AI images, uh, for this podcast as well. Um, might have to go a little further back in the real for that, but, um, but I mean,

1:09:07that's one of the things, there are a lot of things that stand out to me about the old building, everything from, you know, we, we outgrew it long before the new building was ready and we shared offices and became, you know, what we might call logistical masters in terms of when we have phone calls, um, you know, how we, uh, were able to learn from each other from being in such close proximity. The game day is one that really stands out as everyone just came together and kind of set everything aside for a day and, you know, and have fun together. Yeah. I'd echo game day was

1:09:44certainly memorable experiences in the old building. Jennifer is probably the first time I realized I had an identity versus reputation crisis. I thought I hid my competitive spirit fairly well, but evidently not. And, uh, so reputationally it was clear I was getting some feedback that maybe I overdid it at times, but very, very memorable experiences. Um, I think the only thing I'd say or add to that, I love the fact that we had a small building. One of the things we used to say when we hired someone and hiring someone in the early days at Hogan was a big deal. I mean, you,

1:10:17you were talking about in some cases, one or two hires was a double digit increase in the total number of individuals we had in the organization. We asked the question, would you share your office with this individual? And it was a way of thinking about the interview and selection process in a holistic way, but it was actually true because you had to share your office with somebody. And I appreciated that. And I love that about our early days when we were all learning together and sharing experiences. It made us an extremely efficient organization. I miss some of that aspects.

1:10:51I do not want to go back to sharing my office with anyone, but I do miss the collaboration and the closeness that we all had together when we were in the office. And not only did you share your office with a couple other colleagues, but they brought their dogs to work. And so you had a couple of dogs and two or three other colleagues in your office at the same time. And I enjoyed every single minute of it. Yeah. It's funny. I, I have both these kind of specific memories and stories about the old building, but also there are just these features that were a part of the everyday. And one of the

1:11:23things I was going to talk about, Chris, was the, the close quarters and the sharing of offices. And at some, at certain points, it wasn't just with one other person. It was two to three other people. And granted they were pretty large rooms, but we had these, you know, desks that were set up specifically. So each person could sort of have a corner of the room. Um, but it had this, this feeling of maybe being a little bit like having roommates. Um, so that was, you know, it comes with its

1:11:53challenges, but it created this culture that I now really miss or this facet of our culture. And I, I still talk about it. Jennifer knows this. I probably brought it up this week and I call it turning the chair around. And I, I miss out about, about us being primarily virtual now, or at least a lot, a lot of us are, but back in those days, if you had a problem or a question or a challenging client case or something, you could just literally swivel your chair around and be like, Hey, you got a minute. Um, so it was this very collaborative learning oriented culture where

1:12:25we were all in it together. And there are other examples of that. So I was thinking about, um, you know, Tulsa doesn't get a lot of snow, but on the days that it did, you know, nobody could drive in. They don't, they can't clear the roads, but Chris Duffy would, would get in his, uh, truck with, you know, he had the special snow gear. I don't even know what it is. Cause I'm from Florida. I don't know about these things, but he would literally go around and pick everybody up from their houses and we'd carpool into work together and our power was out. So we'd come to the Hogan

1:12:57building for warmth and internet and employment and other things. Um, but just those, the way, those ways in which we would band together when things were tough, you know, if it was a super busy month for the accounting team, everybody, no matter their pay grade would come to the front of the building and fold invoices. Cause we used to send them by snail mail and in the olden days. Uh, so it was like, um, it was a very, um, what's the right word? Like everybody chipped in. It was a, um, not a flat or, I mean, I guess a flat organizational culture, but it

1:13:31was a, nobody's too good to, to fold invoices. Right. Um, so it felt like this real connected culture. And then the last thing I wanted to share, cause this is just a fun, fun thing to know. At the old building, there was this very strange artwork all over the walls. And when you're new, you notice it right away. You're like, okay, there are Rorschach, I can never say this word, Rorschach prints, you know, the inkblot images on the walls. There are copies of images from

1:14:02the, um, thematic apperception test, the TAT, which is like a projective psychological assessment that are, they're very strange looking images, um, and a number of other things. And it really points to our roots and psychology and, um, you know, personality, but you get accustomed to them over time and they just kind of become part of the scenery. But every once in a while, someone sort of point them out to you and, you know, you tell the story about why they're there. But when we sold the building, there was a, um, an effort that was later called the preserving of the antiquities.

1:14:39And there were several of us who, you know, some of these things were about to be thrown away or, you know, who knows where they were going to go maybe in storage. Um, but several of us were running around the building, like saving these old, you know, TAT prints and inkblot images. And so I have a, I have a bunch here, um, paid an exorbitant amount to have them, uh, shipped home to me in Florida, but it's just one of those things that I always hand on to. What about you, Blake? There was one morning and it had been storming a lot. Um, and I, I went in a different door,

1:15:11you know, um, for the marketing. So I went in on that door between research and, and the, you know, the main building. Um, but at the, there was a lot of people gathering around the front entrance one morning, um, after it stormed all night, I'm like, what's going on? I'm going down to get coffee. And there was, um, they were all huddled around a, a dog, um, that had made it to, uh, I mean, like this dog was on, like, I mean, it, it made it to the Hogan building, but it, it was rough. This dog was old. It was skin and bones. Like it had a pretty, pretty rough life,

1:15:46a pretty rough go at it. And then it would count all the storms. Um, this dog was basically on death's door. Um, lucky for it, that door had the, the Hogan H on it. And, uh, yeah, I kept it. Yeah. And, uh, yes, her name was lady. I kept her alive for three years. Um, after that, but like she was 10 plus years old. They didn't know how old she was. She was like almost dead, but, uh, really, really, really cool experience. Yeah. And, and, and the whole, the whole Hogan team chipped

1:16:21in like whoever, like somebody is going to take this dog. We're putting money in so this person can like, you know, get it, you know, vaccinated, get food, get like, you know, uh, you know, a kennel or whatever for it. Um, and that just showed me like the altruism side of Hogan coming together and, and plus around a dog. But, but like I said, I mean, that dog was on, on death's door and it had a Hogan H on it. So it was lucky as hell. So really, really cool. And I love that dog to death. Still think about her all the time. So lady, we miss you. Uh, okay. All right. Last

1:16:57question here. Uh, you know, you all have seen Hogan's evolution from small, uh, small mom and pop shop to the world's leading personality assessment company in, uh, with more than 400, 400, 150 employees today. So what's your vision for where Hogan will be in 10, 15, 20 years from now?

The future of Hogan

1:17:14Yeah, I can get us kicked off, Blake. Um, it's really interesting. If we tie this back to the last question about Hogan headquarters, one of the things I remember a lot is that it was a nonstop revolving door, uh, for Netflix discs that came through the front office. I mean, everyone was shipping discs in and out DVDs back and forth. We would sometimes steal someone's return desk because we wanted to watch it before it got sent back. But I think that's pretty analogous to where I see the future of Hogan. Um, the problems we solve, um, the people problems that

1:17:44we solve, the insights that we provide, whether that's at an individual level, whether it's a team level, whether that's at leadership level, they're universal. They're always going to exist. The relevance with which we interact with our audiences is going to be absolutely critical to Hogan's success. And it's been a huge emphasis strategically for us over the last three or four years. Alison is our CEO has been crystal clear about that remaining relevant in a world that is fast. It is moving fast. Changing quick is extremely important.

1:18:14And while we continue to invest in the science of what we do, the efficacy, the predictability of everything that we do, we're continuing to invest to ensure that we remain relevant with our audiences and can deliver and solve those problems that I think will be universal in the future. So lots to come in the future. Extremely excited about what the future has. For Hogan. Um, and I'm glad to be a part of that. Jennifer. Yeah. I think just to, to add to that of continuing to move forward as our, our client needs evolve, as our business

1:18:46needs change. Um, but in reflecting on this conversation today, you know, while also trying to hold on to what is so pure and great about our organizations, um, like I think you said it like culture like this isn't built overnight, um, it continues to evolve. And, um, the Hogan summer camp that we, we talked about from this summer was an evolution of that. Um, but we were also able to see, wow, how things have changed and we've continue, continue to grow. And I, you know,

1:19:22I think Hogan does such amazing work and makes such an impact in the lives of leaders. We impact whether or not, um, you know, someone gets a job that they like, um, and they want to be at. And, you know, the, and we know leaders impact so much about our day to day and, you know, what would carry home with us from that too. So, you know, my hope is 10 years from now, 15 years from now, we're staying true to our core. And in the sense that we are focused on making a difference, um, for, for people

1:19:59and their work lives, but also continuing to, to meet the needs of the market, continuing to, to grow and expand as an organization. I would echo what our colleagues have said so far, Blake. Um, what I would add is, I guess what I hope for Hogan is, and what I think we're, we are capable of is becoming the trusted name in personality assessment, specifically for leadership development and decision support around leadership, because, you know, I, I think we are number one, we're operating

1:20:33in a market where there's been a lot of consolidation and, um, there's a lot of PE money in our space right now. But one thing that makes Hogan distinctive is we are one of the last of the true independence. We don't answer to PE money. We don't, uh, we can do things our way. And luckily for us in the world, our way is a very ethical, uh, way of doing business and bringing our science to life. So I really think, you know, if we, if we could expand our footprint and expand that trust

1:21:10that we have with so many customers today, um, I think we really do make a difference in the quality of leadership worldwide. Um, so I would love to see us come fully into that and, you know, really start to, to, to own that space. I think we do in, you know, in, in some pockets today, but I think we have a lot, a lot more of a difference that we can make there and do it in a way that, you know, we're really proud of. Yeah. Well, uh, I'll, I'll wrap this thing up kind of just, um, basically saying, you know, we have the data, uh, earlier this year that we saw, you know, with the, you know,

1:21:44the global leadership effectiveness survey that we now are talking about the leadership divide. And there's obviously some kind of leadership crisis going on globally where, um, the leaders that we have are not the, the leaders that, um, are, you know, the employees and the, and the people really want. Um, and Jackie, you said it in the last episode. Um, and it was very, I think it was like the, the pull quote that we had was kind of like, you were like, if we can just move the needle just a little bit and we can have like a huge impact. And I think from a leadership standpoint,

1:22:16if we can continue to do that, continue to, to push forward on that front, because I do think that the definition of Hogan, you know, that Hogan has on leadership of, um, you know, developing and maintaining a high performing team, I think it is right. I think we need to convince more people that that's right. And that's what we're going to do. I mean, and in my job as the PR person is to amplify that as much as possible, but I can't do that without the work that the three of y'all are doing. So, um, y'all are great. I, and I, I'm so, I'm, I'm honored to work with all of you.

1:22:49This is fun. And I really appreciate y'all joining us for this episode. Thanks for asking us, Blake. It was a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.

1:22:58Thanks, Blake. And that does it for this episode of the science of personality. Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative and spooky episode. Cheers, everybody.

1:23:12Cheers.