Witches and Witchcraft

Welcome to spooky season

0:00Witchcraft is a mechanism for people to make sense of the world that's around them. Try to establish some sort of self-efficacy and say, okay, the world is mostly out of my control. What can I control? I can use the herbs and plants and candles, and I can speak my intention into the world in the form of a spell. And it makes sense that there is this sort of development of what is akin to our religion to find meaning, and a part of what makes witchcraft or witches unique in a way is the community nature of it. Witches covens, witches circles, it brings people together, and so that's the finding meaning component of it.

0:45People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on Earth. Personality psychology is about the nature of human nature. It's about people, and wouldn't that be useful to know?

Introducing Allison Howell

1:00Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Science of Personality podcast. I'm your host, Blake Lepp, and I'm joined by my co-host, Jackie Psalm, for what we think will be a fun episode. Jackie, are you as excited as I am for this episode? I am super excited. I'm excited about spooky season in general, so I've been really doing a lot of homework on all these fun topics we're going to be covering, and yeah, learning a ton. I can't wait to talk with Allison. Yeah, as Jackie and I are, you know, she mentioned we're kicking off the annual spooky season episodes, which we started several years ago. And today we have a very special guest who we actually had no idea until just recently was a bit of an expert on the topic of witches and witchcraft.

1:42So I'm thrilled to announce that our guest today is none other than Hogan CEO, Allison Howell, who shocked us when she revealed that this subject was something she had researched extensively while doing some psychology coursework at Harvard. So we couldn't pass up the opportunity to bring her on this episode to discuss a topic that has intrigued, fascinated, and terrified people across the globe in some form for centuries. But, before we get to our conversation with Allison, I have a couple of announcements for our listeners.

2:12First, as always, if you wish to give us any ideas for upcoming episodes, or you want to ask us a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality dot com, drop a comment on this YouTube video, or follow the science of personality on LinkedIn. Second, if you enjoy the spooky season episodes, I promise you won't want to miss the next episode. We have something really special planned that I think will be unlike anything we've done before. So, without giving too much away, here's what I'll say about it.

2:43Awesome guest, special location, no computers. Trust me, it's going to be super cool. Now, let's get to it. Allison, welcome to the podcast. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before we get started? I'm very excited to be here. Happy to nerd out with you guys on this topic. The one thing I will say before we begin is my caveats that I'm not a psychologist and I'm not an expert in witches. I just happened to get into this topic, like you said, during some coursework and have just gone down several different rabbit holes because it is endlessly fascinating.

3:19So, thanks for letting me chat about it. Well, and Allison, right off the bat, you're not an actual witch, right? You know, the jury's out. The more I get into it, the more I think, yeah, maybe. Maybe. I'll explain later. Well, I want to get into this a little bit later, but there's a lot of strange stuff like witchcraft and also, you know, satanic ritualism stuff that goes on in your neck of the woods and actually in the woods in your neck of the woods in Wisconsin from what I've seen in a bunch of or heard on podcasts or, you know, read in different types of lore and things like that.

3:58So, we might touch on that here in just a little bit, but Allison, out of the gate, you know, as we said, I was shocked to learn that you're quite the expert when it comes to witches and witchcraft. So, I'm curious, like, how did all of this start? You know, was it something that you were required to do or was it due to your own curiosity? I mean, you mentioned Harvard coursework, but, like, were you assigned this topic or did you get to choose this topic based on, like, a broader assignment?

Studying the witch archetype

4:27Yeah. I was hoping you were going to ask me this question because you're going to be even more shocked now. So, with the coursework, this was a topic that kind of slotted into one of my social psychology courses as well. But my interest started about two years ago when you, Blake, did the podcast on witches and the psychology of witches. And I thought it was a super interesting podcast. And you ended the podcast with the question, is witchcraft real? And I remember, like, very clearly leaving the podcast or finishing it and thinking, that's not the right question.

5:07And it sent me on this journey. Afterwards, just coincidentally, I had joined a book club and the first book that we were reading is called Killing the Witches by Bill O'Reilly. That was a historical retelling of the Salem Witch Trials. It's a bit of a bait and switch if you read the book. It ends up being more about Ben Franklin than it is about witches. But, again, I kept finding myself thinking, there's something missing. And the perspective of the women, you know, largely women, was just completely absent from these retellings.

5:39And so, I had this opportunity with my social psychology class to choose a topic. And I thought, you know what? This image of the witch and ideas of witch hunts and witchcraft is so pervasive in different forms. I'm going to study that as an archetype. And so, that kind of led me down this path that the research continues because it's so fascinating. Well, I want to give a shout out first off to Larry Martinez. He was our guest for that episode that you referenced earlier. And, you know, we love seeing Larry at all of the PSYOP conferences each year.

6:10But he's also, you know, we had him on to talk about this. But we just were really covering some of the basics about witchcraft, but also really more focused specifically on the Salem Witch Trials. So, we're going to expand on that a little bit more today. And, Jackie, you had mentioned, you know, before we even got started about kind of like what direction do we want to go with this? So, do you want to ask what you had mentioned earlier? Yeah. Because I found myself prepping for this. I found myself curious, Allison. What interests you the most?

6:41What fascinates you the most? Is it more about the historical examples that we all know and some we don't know? I myself found myself deep down a rabbit hole preparing for this, watching a variety of documentaries about witchcraft. So, I learned a lot, but it opened up a lot of questions for me as well around, you know, when people say witchcraft, they mean a range of things, which could include everything from magic to demonic possession to, you know, the actual Salem witchcraft trials and ones that happened long before that across Europe and other places.

7:15There are religious components and, you know, we may want to keep this conversation really broad or we may want to kind of hone our, sharpen our tools here. But we'd love to hear your perspective on what really draws you in. Yeah. So, you're really hitting the nail on the head there. The breadth of the topic is really what is so fascinating to me because it ranges or it goes back centuries, right? In almost every region of the world, there is some sort of history of a witch hunt.

7:47And each one of them has a little bit of a different flavor, but there are some commonalities with it. And I think that's what really interests me is that why is this image so pervasive? Why is it sticking with us throughout time? Because even, I have to say, being invited, well, I inserted myself into being the guest on this podcast, let's be clear. But there is still a part of me that's like, okay, how is it going to be perceived that I'm coming in and talking about witches? You know, because you have this tendency to just be like, okay, that's just woo-woo nonsense.

8:18So, it's broad. So, I actually wanted to turn this back to you guys and say, you know, when we are talking about witches, witchcraft, witch hunts, what comes to mind for you guys? Jackie, you want to go first?

The psychological mechanisms behind witch hunts

8:30Sure.

The psychological mechanisms behind witch hunts

8:31Yeah. I mean, for me, I think it's hard not to have, the first thing that pops to your mind is the very famous Salem witchcraft trials, which are haunting when you, and no pun intended, but when you really dig into the stories there and how, really how it began and what perpetuated it and what might have been under the surface there, it is a chilling history that happened not as long ago as one might hope, given the atrocities that happened in these really small and tight-knit religious communities.

9:04So, I certainly think of that first, but of course, you can take the psychologist out of her work context, but you can't take the psychologist out of the way I think about life in general. So, what fascinates me the most is what psychological mechanisms allow for these kinds of things to happen for people who are, you know, would at least self-proclaimed to be pious, good, you know, God-fearing people, and by their definition,

9:39who are trying to do right, I think, in their own minds, and what mechanisms enable them to commit such atrocities. And, and more, perhaps more interesting still is the tendency for when we encounter things we don't understand to explain them using these kind of wild, making these wild attributions, like, oh, if my crops died, it must have been the witches, or if my child got a fever and it felt ill, it must be the witches again.

10:10And so, that's what fascinates me the most. What about you, Blake? I mean, my mind automatically goes to, and has for a while. So, I've been sympathetic towards the witch movement, cause, or history, whatever you want to, you know, call it. My grandma used to be really big into genealogy. And so, she, you know, she learned how to use the internet. You know, we think of, like, you know, older people around the time of the internet, like, you know,

10:40this is going to be something, a struggle for them, you know, to adapt and learn. Not the case with my grandma at all. She, she was, became very adept at it. She, she learned very quickly. And because of that, she really went down a rabbit hole with genealogy. And she would tell me stories. She's like, you know that we are related to people who were part of the, the Salem witch trials. She would tell me that as a kid, and I'm like, as far as, like, the witch side of things. And I thought, so I don't have any more specifics on that, cause, unfortunately, she's no longer with us to tell me.

11:12That was just more whenever I was a kid. I never followed up, but that was what she told me. So, I like to, I like to think that there's a little bit of a witch or warlock or something in me.

11:23But I don't, I don't know. That's what I think of. And, and also, my wife's super into it. She's got her little thing that she, like, makes noises with, with the little, like, a little bowl. And I hear it going off in her office, you know, if she's having a rough day. It's like, and she even told me that, like, after Oklahoma State University lost a football game the first game of the year. She was in Costa Rica. She and her sister cast a spell to make sure that they don't lose again. And we're on a three-game winning streak. Like, so, there you go.

11:56So, that's, that's my, that's what I have to say about witches. So, Allison, was that what you were expecting at all? Um, well, no. I didn't know that you were part witch. And I'm thrilled for you. Congratulations, Blake. Thank you. I kind of, I embrace it. But, like, what's, so, I wasn't sure what you guys would say in response, but what you're saying really speaks to the breadth of this. Because when I was writing this paper for my social psychology class, the idea of the archetype was that it is a mental heuristic, basically, to apply a label to somebody who is outside the norms of society.

12:39And it, in a sense, in many ways, to many people, stops curiosity, stops the conversation. It just puts them in a category that you automatically assign something to. But, I think what's interesting, and one of the things you're talking about, Blake, is that there are elements of witchcraft or magic everywhere. You know, you have your, your good luck charms for the football games. And we say prayers as part of our religion.

13:09And we, you know, there are all sorts of different things, rituals that we have throughout the day that we don't think of as witchcraft, but ultimately, they are. So, witch, this witchcraft stuff is everywhere. And the more you dig, the more you see that it's just sort of, like, beneath the surface. And it's just, it's ever-present.

Science versus superstition

13:26Well, Allison, so, can you tell us, I guess, when you, like, started embarking on this research and doing all of this, can you tell us what you thought you knew about witchcraft prior to starting your research and compare it to what you know now? Because, like, what was your perception before you, you, you really dug into this? It's hard to put myself back in time to, like, what I, what I didn't know versus what I know now. But I have always, you know, so in Hogan terms, I'm high science, and I have always been somewhat dismissive of things that are a little bit more woo-woo.

14:05It's probably the best way I can describe it. Things that don't really have a lot of scientific evidence behind them and any sort of association with things that are witchy felt a little uncomfortable for me. Now, I still come up against that at times. You know, this question of does witchcraft exist is, like, it's a harder question for me to answer than I ever thought it would be. But the, I think the truth is that a lot of the stuff underlying it is just really misunderstanding and a lack of curiosity around what's, like, what's driving people or what's creating judgments and critiques of people that maybe we don't fully understand.

14:47Yeah, I think one of the, the fascinating, I was thinking about something you said earlier, Allison, about how this label of witch was really used to classify people who were on the outskirts of normal or outskirts of society or people who didn't fit into a particular mold. And one of the things I mentioned when, when you asked what we were interested about was, in addition to that, so there's kind of people we don't understand or we don't, that don't fit our, our mental models of what normal is.

15:18But also things in the world that we don't understand, that we want to try to make sense of, which look different today than they did during the time of the witch trials, the historical, historically famous, infamous witch trials. But at that time, the understanding of things like the climate and weather and disease and pathogens and how, you know, biology and medicine, the understanding was so poor that, you know, witchcraft and other kind of supernatural, magical, spiritual things were used to explain all kinds of phenomenon that were happening.

15:57So what, what, what struck me was, you know, it's, it's, there's this evaluative kind of judgment that's cast when someone is called a witch that's about, you know, well, this person is, is different. But also we are blaming them for the other things. So we don't understand them and we're blaming them for all the things that we also don't understand. So it's such a fascinating facet of all this that's under the surface. And, you know. Absolutely. Well, I don't, I don't mean to take us off topic too much, but everything you're saying is absolutely true that the, there is a lot of things around magic that is truly just science we don't fully understand at any point in time.

16:40And like I, a silly example is you go back to when like the Harry Potter movies came out and they had like the moving pictures and, you know, various things that now are just very normal with, with the way that technology and our cell phones have evolved that moving, moving pictures is not magic. It's just science. And so back at that point in time, when the understanding of science was so low, it was really easy to just, you try to find ways to explain the phenomenon that's going on.

17:11But the other thing that I wanted to bring in here is that there is also part of this history that is, it's, it's not just women involved in, that are kind of associated with witches and witchcraft, but by and large it is women. And I'm using, you know, gender as a dichotomy here, there have been efforts over the centuries to erase women's contribution to society. And so where witchcraft butts up against science, biology, midwifery, medicine, et cetera, there was likely some type of record keeping involved that has been erased or changed in some way.

17:53And a great example of that is a voodoo doll. I don't know if you guys heard this before that a voodoo doll is actually, it's not for, you know, torturing people that you like. It was used as an, as an early device for tracking medical records. And so a patient would go to a healer and they would say, okay, something hurts here. And they, they'd have a doll and they put a pin in the doll and they, you give them a treatment and say, okay, now go see if this works. So when you come back, they have the doll and say, okay, this is what it is. And so it has shifted so much where that was when people couldn't read and write, that was a method of keeping track of medical information.

18:30And it has shifted so much because not fully, but, you know, in part because of that erasure of women and minorities in contributing to these fields. Well, and so you're, you're getting into my, my next question there, you know, because, you know, whenever I was reading through the materials that you kind of sent and I was doing some homework for this episode, you know, there is this blurred line between magic and science.

Medicine and the erasure of women

18:57Or, you know, you know, you know, I, I think there, I think there still is. And, you know, one interesting example, I heard it today. So, um, you know, in, in, in a lot of it ties back to religion in this capacity, but, you know, whenever there's something that we can't understand, like human beings have created religions around the world, um, and, you know, believe in their various things.

And usually whenever it gets to a point of, we don't really know how to explain this anymore, you kind of just, uh, fall back on religion for that where, where a lot of people are actually, um, speculating that this is probably the direction we're about to go down with AI or a lot of people are that it's going to become so hard for us to understand and explain as humans that there's going to be some religious component to this, or maybe they're working to build that in how long that takes.

19:45I don't know. So I don't want to get us off track either, but, you know, so some of these practices that were perceived as witchcraft, you know, uh, hundreds of years ago are now common forms of like health and wellness, you know, herb, herbal medicines, things like that. Um, so what does that tell us about how human beings decide what counts as science and what counts as something much more sinister? Yeah, that is such a big question to unpack. And I would love to hear what you guys think about that. I, you know, I think there's a sort of an, an easy and somewhat correct, but not fully correct answer. And that knowledge that is originating from women and minorities and people kind of living on the margins of society is deemed not credible.

20:34Um, however, there are certain things from this world that have made its way into like, you know, where we are Western medicine. So, uh, aspirin came from, I think it's like birch trees. Um, I could be wrong about that, but like aspirin is, uh, derived from a plant. Many of the medicines that we have are derived from, you know, herbs and, you know, obviously it's, it's chemistry, right? But, um, I, I don't know exactly how certain things make its way into like, you know, mainstream. Um, but it is often, there is that erasure of the early contributions to it. And I think that's really interesting.

21:13Yeah, that's definitely new to me, Alice. And that's fascinating. The, the, the story about the voodoo dolls. Um, I'm learning things right here in the moment. Um, but, but it is fascinating. I mean, there is a theme where, uh, in, in a lot of these cases where the people accused had, uh, some sort of, they were known as a healer in the village or they, you know, used, um, what might've been conventional back then, what might be perceived as kind of non-conventional medical, um, kinds of interventions to help with, with various maladies like herbs and salves and, um, the kind of this mental image of an apothecary, right? Um, mixing of potions.

21:57So to speak might have actually just been more like the mixing of a tonic to help with, uh, you know, an upset stomach or what have you. And how when viewed through a lens of society, which is living in a peaceful time where, you know, there are enough resources to go around and there's not political conflict, that those capabilities are perceived in one way, right? Which is, this person is, is a healer, but in times of conflict and poverty and famine, you know, I think in particular, the stories of the Salem witchcraft trials,

22:35that happened during a time that had bitterly cold winter and there were diseases impacting their crops or political tensions happening between, um, you know, you know, very broadly in, in the country, but also in particular between these two cities that were deeply involved in their villages that were deeply involved in the, um, trials. So when things are hard and resources are scarce and suspicions start to arise and people change completely, they start viewing that same benign, even benevolent capability of being a healer as,

23:14you know, you know, doing witchcraft or, you know, this voodoo doll idea. It's like, what was a medical record keeping device is now perceived as like a, a, a instrument of torture or, you know, wrong, harmful, being harmful to other people. It's fascinating how the things that are happening around a society can change the view altogether. So that's, what's coming to mind for me, Blake, and your question about, you know, what is at least experience-based medical healing?

23:48I don't know if we can call it science, but, you know, in some cases what they were doing is probably more scientific than in others, but what is viewed as, you know, medicine can very quickly become poison or, you know, potions, that sort of thing. What, what comes to mind for you, Blake? Well, I mean, I couldn't help but think, um, when you were mentioning all this stuff, all the, all of the things that were kind of outside of these people's control around the Salem witch trials, you know, so you were mentioning like, you know, it was really cold, you know, disease crops, you know, things like that.

24:20What does this sound like? It sounds like this was a society that was derailing. It sounds like a society who was under some stress. They were under some pressure. Maybe there were some domino derailers in play. Like, so the skeptical kind of flares up, you know, and then, you know, maybe, maybe some of these, the moving against started, uh, started, you know, rearing their ugly heads against this. Um, so that was, sorry, I was getting so distracted. I was like, wow, this kind of does, this was a society derailing.

24:51Um, but I don't know. What are y'all's thoughts on that? What, what do you think?

Socioanalytic theory and scarcity

24:57I was hoping we'd get to this because there, uh, underlying a lot of this is our favorite theory at Hogan, a socio-analytic theory, which is, uh, you know, for those listening who may not know it off the top of your head, that is about how people, uh, are driven in life to get along, get ahead and find meaning. And so when you go back in time, uh, using the Salem Witch Trials as, as an example, um, resources are scarce. There is safety and banding together.

25:28There is, uh, a need to try to get ahead and, and manage limited resources. And there's a need to find meaning. The dominant way of finding meaning at that time was, you know, Puritan religion. However, that was extremely difficult for women to live in. And so witchcraft ends up, you know, there's a part of this where, uh, you know, we'll set this aside for a second, but a big part of the Salem Witch Trials was really like a, a land grab from women who owned property. But the other part of it, which is getting into the question of, like, does witchcraft exist?

26:02Witchcraft is a mechanism for people to make sense of the world that's around them. Try to establish some sort of self-efficacy and say, okay, the world is mostly out of my control. What can I control? I can use the herbs and plants and candles and I can speak my intention into the world in the form of a spell. And it makes sense that there is, you know, this sort of development of what is akin to our religion to find meaning.

26:36And a part of what makes, like, witchcraft or witches unique in a way is the community nature of it. You know, witches covens, witches circles, it brings people together. And so that's the finding meaning component of it. Very cool. Okay, yeah. Another question I had in relation to that that came up while I was thinking about the HDS side of things is, Allison, you mentioned, you know, the women's contributions being erased in history. So there's probably a lot of things out there that, you know, worry race that we don't even, we may not even have any knowledge of whatsoever.

27:13So I'm curious. So did that line that we talked about between magic and science, did it take a man figuring out that these herbs or these different things were working? And once the man said this works and could prove it, that society accepted it as science as opposed to magic, do you think that's what happened? Not just one man, but I think by and large, yes. I'd say it's kind of a patriarchal thing. Yeah, I think back to, so there's a book called The Frozen River, if either of you guys have read it.

27:44And it's a fictional retelling, but based on a real woman in New England, and I don't even know what century, who's a midwife. And like the records show that she's delivered thousands of babies into the world and has lost, like I want to, I'm going to say a none or very, very small number. And as part of this story, again, it's fiction, but there's a doctor that comes to town who's Harvard trained and immediately loses several patients in childbirth because he does not know.

28:15And so I think that is a great example of like, there is the institution of like education and medicine that is deemed credible. And then there is the lived experiences. And when those converge, the dominant group ends up winning out, right? And so the knowledge that midwifery still exists, but it's not seen nearly as credible as obstetrics and gynecology, for example.

28:48But there is a lot of folk knowledge in that world that is oftentimes centering the woman in a way that modern medicine doesn't. So what would you say are maybe some of the similarities between what people perceive of the witch persona and what it actually was? And then maybe what are some of the differences that kind of debunk or go against what we perceive them to be?

Similarities of the witch persona

29:15Let's get into the personality side of things. All right, so when I was looking into the archetype, what I was really like kind of the way that I was defining it is that the archetype of the witch involves women, oftentimes of a certain age, maybe not conventionally attractive, maybe possessing unique specialized knowledge, oftentimes in possession of things of value.

29:46Like, you know, widows who have inherited the land and have things of value that other people want. Or people who just, like I said earlier, don't conform to the norms of society. So maybe they don't believe the same things. Maybe they start questioning the way things are done. And I think those are, in a lot of ways, the similarities that you see when you study like witch hunts, you know, around the world throughout history that oftentimes those are the things. Again, it's not just women.

30:17And there is a, in, I think it's in England. I'm getting my details a little bit mixed up here. But there are some witch hunts in like England and Ireland and some attempts to really look at the historical archives around that. And they found that it isn't just women, but most of the historical documentation around it has been destroyed. And so there's a lot of stuff that adds to this, you know, woo-woo nature of it that you can't really go back in history and actually truly study what has happened.

30:48And so we say women, but it's not gender exclusive, if you will. Yeah, but there is an interesting sort of power dynamic there, I think, that you're hitting on, Allison, that I learned about while I was doing some prep for this, which is that it, you know, when people are scared, so back to your insight about derailment, Blake, a society that is dealing with immense amounts of pressure. And sometimes this is literal selection pressure, right? There's fear that we won't survive through this winter or that we might not, you know, have enough food to put on the table.

31:23When those pressures are at play, people want to certainly want to make sense of their world more desperately than any other time, especially when things are happening that they don't really understand, which was true in this case. But also they want to control as much as they can about what's happening around them. And so I think an interesting dynamic is two parts. One is, Allison, when I was learning about this, the men who were accused tended to be ones who also either spoke out against what was happening in these witch trials or that was challenging the ruling authority of the moment or who was standing out in some way as like not conforming.

32:06So I think that's interesting as well. So maybe it was disproportionately punishing to people who didn't conform to just in some way or another to expectations. But also another kind of interesting power dynamic that happened, particularly in the Salem trials, although I didn't see evidence of this in some of the others that happened around the world even prior to that, was that a lot of the women who accused other women of being witches actually came from the poorer of the two towns that were embroiled in this situation.

32:45Which I think one was called Salem Village and later became renamed to Danvers, I think it was, but that was the poorer community and they were more an agricultural society and they didn't have access to all the same trade advantages and location that Salem did. And the women who did, and the women who did, and the women who did the bulk of the accusing came from that, the poorer side, and they were accusing the wealthier side of being witches.

33:15And you have to imagine during times of selection pressure, some of that had to have been strategic, right? It's how do I maximize my tribe's chances of surviving at whatever cost, at whatever expense? And in this case, you know, it was at the expense of this other, the women in this other village. Yeah, if I can bring that into some like modern day examples too, I've kind of engaged in a really similar thought exercise where you, when you learned that a lot of this kicked off because of two young women who were going around and pointing fingers at other people.

Modern workplace dynamics and survival

33:53And you, there is a part of me that's like, why were these women doing this to other, largely women? And I think it's, it is an element of the scarcity and responding to power structures in the way that you kind of feel necessary to succeed. And what, you know, bringing it into modern day, I actually was doing a webinar recently and talking about women in leadership and some of our own data. And somebody asked this question at the end of, you know, how do you explain women, you know, cutting each other down and being competitive against women when, you know, the data is saying what it's saying.

34:32And I hate this question because, you know, it doesn't, you know, hope that it doesn't have to be a competition, but the fact is we are creating a scenario in the world of work oftentimes where there is some scarcity, particularly in work for available positions and, you know, being able to, you know, elevate your career that oftentimes you're competing. And so there, there does seem to be a little bit of that happening, but it is, you know, when you put yourself in the shoes of those people, it is, it's a survival mechanism. It is a way to advance, get ahead in society.

35:05Yeah. And if I could just add something there, because I think this is fascinating when you, it's frightening to transfer the ideas about what happened then to present day, because it's scary. I mean, it's scary to think things like this can and do still happen. And, but what, what I think is important for us to remember is that our society and technology has evolved a lot more quickly than our biology can keep up with. So you might think that can never happen now because we understand so much about science and medicine in the world and we're evolved morally more than we were back then.

35:42But I think that is false comfort. I think, you know, when the human brain perceives derailing situations, Blake, to use the expression you brought in, in their work world, they interpret it in very much the same way. The human brain interprets it in very much the same way as it did back in, in those times when there wasn't that technology or understanding or, you know, societal maturity compared to where we are now.

36:12But the, those selection pressures feel very similar in the boardroom to the way that they felt, you know, in that, in, in Salem at that time. So I think we should keep, stay mindful that, you know, we haven't changed women evolved all that much from where we were then. No, no. And I, you know, one of the things I didn't mention about, you know, what got me interested in this was part of that archetype that I was researching is looking at how it's expressed today.

36:45And at that point in time, this was during the campaigns for the 2024 presidential election, and J.D. Vance was circulating the phrases of childless catwomen. And that really stuck with me of saying, what's so, what's so bad about childless catwomen? And realizing that it just really plays on those stereotypes of women who are not conforming to society. And just today, I saw a clip of a senator who, I think it was a senator or congressman, who is fighting against certain workplace protections for women like past the age of 40 because menopausal women are problematic.

37:27That's not my wording. That's his wording. And so it is present and agreed that technology, you know, makes you think that we're a lot more sophisticated, but we still kind of go back to those tropes and those archetypes to make sense of the world. And when we are kind of afraid of what we don't know, that's what problems come up. Yeah, I want to draw a comparison also that just kind of popped up. I mean, I know we've still got some ground to cover in this episode, but, you know, if we're going to try to explain to the audience, like draw a comparison between what society was feeling in that moment, you know, around Salem, for instance.

38:08I would say those questions, that uncertainty, all is really kind of like what the world was like in our society was like whenever COVID started, whenever there were a lot of a lot of questions and not enough answers, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of stress, which caused derailing tendencies to occur. So that just kind of flew into my brain while we were discussing this. I don't know if you all agree or disagree, but I'm just trying to make it make sense to people today as to like, what did that feel like?

38:41And I think that's probably the closest example I can come up with. Yeah.

38:47So I was thinking about this today. I hadn't really made these connections earlier, and I'm a little bit ashamed of myself for that, that I've been giving some talks in various places. Around trust in the workplace, and starting with the idea of, you know, VUCA moving to BANI, so that, you know, it's just the kind of the chaos of the world that we're living in, and with, you know, technological advancement, where it's exponentially more complex. And for many people in the workplace, there is this attempt to have some like sense making and have a sense of control where people are being laid off all over the place.

39:26There are these, you know, tech billionaires who are really sort of saying that people are too expensive, and we should just move everything to AI, and sort of the sentiment that that creates for people. And then you sort of see some of the things that are happening culturally, where rituals, manifestation, or positive self-talk, for example. Like these are things that there is, now we have some science behind like what these are, but we kind of revert back to these mechanisms to establish some self-efficacy and say, look at what I can control, and what I can manage internally.

40:05And so, I think it is very relevant, and again, like it took me a little while to make that mental leap, but we're living in a world of chaos, we need some control, we're craving community, and some of the things that people are reaching for are kind of in the witchy realm. Yeah, and I can think of no other time where some of the things that threatened those three master motives that you mentioned, Allison, getting along, getting ahead, and finding meaning, that were more under attack than they were in the conditions like COVID.

40:38And there have been other times in history just like that one, but you know, think about it. You can't experience connection or warmth with people in the way you could before. You're completely isolated. The need for power is not just about resources. It's also about control, and there's very much that was out of our control in that time. And later on top of that, you know, a new search for meaning and trying to make sense of this new normal, this new world in which we live,

41:09which creates this real existential sort of dread is what the way Dr. Robert Hogan refers to it as this existential dread when you can't make meaning of your world. And it causes people to do really wacky things. And I think, you know, to your point, Allison, we may revert back. You know, people were doing crazy things during the time of COVID. I remember something about injecting bleach maybe into one's bloodstream and things of this nature. And also these strong in-group, out-group dynamics that come up, right?

41:42Suddenly, those of us who are living in an otherwise happy community turned on our neighbors about, well, they're the anti-vaxxers and we're the other kind. So I think, yes, all of that comes into play and people behave in ways that you would expect they wouldn't, given how evolved we've become. And those of you who are just listening, I used air quotes there around evolved. Well, Jackie, you haven't lived until you've injected bleach. That's another topic, another episode altogether.

42:16I want to dig in a little bit more, Allison, on something we were starting to get into and we got into a little bit earlier.

Property and confessions under torture

42:23And that's the fact that witch hunts used to be quite common in previous centuries and were often closely tied to land or property. So I'm curious to kind of get like, you don't have to give me like a 60-40 comparison, but I'm curious how much of that do you think was true conviction, you know, that someone actually was a witch versus a justification for taking a piece of property by force? You know, that's a question, I don't know if it's even knowable, to be honest with you.

42:55I think that there is a strong likelihood that the majority of these scenarios were, well, I don't, I can't speak to how many of the people prosecuted or persecuted were property owners, but I can speak to the fact that many of the people who were persecuted were, you know, executed or judged based on super unfair criteria. You know, you can think of the example of women who are, you know,

43:27the test for being a witch is to throw them into the water and if they float, they're a witch and then they'll be killed. If they sink, they're not a witch, but guess what, they drown, you know? So there's really no positive outcome here and there's, and like some of the evidence that they were using at that point in time, specifically with the Salem Witch Trials was this, I'm going to get the wording wrong, but it's sort of the spectral lens and there, it was kind of bringing in the religious element as a way, it was really factoring into like the judicial system at that point in time.

44:00And so, I don't know what we can say. You know, I think a lot of it was erroneous, but, you know, going back to the question that we started off with, you know, does witchcraft exist? Maybe, maybe there was something to it. Maybe there was more to it, but we just, we don't have the historical records to really know. One thing, I don't know how this played out. We're moving into the land of complete conjecture for those, let's make that clear. That's the fun place. I like that.

44:27I found myself wondering as I was reading more about this, you know, so unfortunately, this is one of the most devastatingly sad details around these witch trials is that most often when someone was accused, they were brought into some form of imprisonment and they were viciously tortured and to try to gain confessions, not just about their own wrongdoings and evil ways, but also they were required in many cases to call out others.

44:58Like, who were you meeting with in these covens and who is among your witchcraft buddies? And they were tortured until they gave up other names. And what I wonder is, you know, so if you find yourself in that situation, here I am, an innocent person accused of doing this thing. I can't make the torture stop until I confess and I'm sleep deprived and probably starving and I'm injured, right? There are these things happening that are intensely traumatic. And I know that my, this was the way it happened.

45:29And my, I know that these people won't stop until they get what they want. And I have to name someone else. Who do I choose? And I, I remember thinking, I was like, how, what would happen? Again, I can't, I come back to these psychological processes. If you had to choose, you might choose someone who confers some sort of evolutionary advantage to the children. You know, you're about to leave behind, right? I'm about to be hanged or worse and I choose the worst, the less bad of the options I have in front of me.

46:03Or maybe another way to think about that is maybe I choose the most strategic. And that's, I mean, again, I'm, this is complete conjecture at this point, but what a horrible situation to be in. Wow, Jackie, your mind really goes to places mine doesn't go. Yeah, okay. I can't really tell you for a second.

46:21Wild. All right.

46:24Allison, any thoughts on that? Lots and lots on that. No, I mean, I think it's absolutely right. And this was, this was exactly when I was reading this, this book for my book club thinking, okay, this, this historical retelling. And I'm using your quotes for those listening, was very much, you know, going and looking at the historical documents and seeing what was written down. And so it was, in a sense, factual, but completely, completely missed the perspective. And, you know, I don't know that there's any way to get that perspective of the women, so it kind of has to be conjecture.

46:56But when you put yourself in those shoes, and oftentimes, yes, if you are a mother with kids or other things that you need to protect, you will find any mechanism to, to survive that, that scenario. So if it means implicating somebody else, throwing somebody else under the bus, that's a, that is a way around it. And so it was just really such a horrible time, time in our history where there's no positive outcome for people who are, who are accused. You can't get out of the accusation.

47:26You can't, you know, really escape it without condemning somebody else. Like, it's just, it's really all kinds of bad.

The threat of women sharing knowledge

47:32Well, what, back to the personality thing, what is it about us as human beings? I mean, why are, okay, so like, you know, I think you had mentioned like, which is being considered as like, quote, the other, as far as like how they're described. Um, so why are societies so compelled to identify these people who break from cultural and societal norms and, you know, turn them into something threatening? Why, why do we do that? Is it, is it back to, you know, the socio-analytic theory or is it, is it just in our biology, evolutionary, like what, what's, what's at play here?

48:07Yeah, Jackie, you're probably better equipped to answer the question with your background, but I mean, it's, it's, it's social psychology, I think it's, uh, making sense of the world around you. And when you encounter someone or something that is different from your, different from your lived experience, it's unknown, it can be a little bit scary. And, uh, the kind of the protection mechanism that happens is to kind of put it in a different category and say, that's not like me until, until you know better.

48:40Or even if you do, sometimes it's still not, uh, comfortable enough to, to kind of let it into your, into your orbit, if you will. So, um, but Jackie, I, I'd love to hear your take on, on that. Yeah, I mean, I think you're a definitely, you're on the right track there for sure. It's, I think we prefer, the brain prefers neat categories where we can sort people into buckets that we understand. So good guys and bad guys, in group and out group, like me or not like me. So the brain, um, optimizes for finding things that are neatly sortable and categorizable.

49:19And so I think these people fell into category or they fell out of categories, right? Well, you couldn't sort them into a bucket, but I think what is fascinating is at least early on, although I think as the trials picked up, you know, momentum, it became harder to understand the patterns of who was being accused and who wasn't. But at least at the beginning, um, I don't think there were perceptions that these people were dangerous prior to that, right? They were weirder or different or perceived as not like me, but a lot of them were peaceful healers, right?

49:56Or, you know, they, they had some sort of reputation in the community as being different, but not like a bad guy, not, not the enemy, not dangerous. So I think they are people who defy categorization and that makes the humans very, very nervous for whatever reason. Well, um, I, I want to get back before we, we wrap this thing up with my, my final question. I want to get back to this topic of covens because really covens, you know, for, it's what people kind of, I guess in, you know, pop culture or whatever,

50:31what we think of them for, for people who maybe haven't dug into the history, you know, the history behind all of this is really that we think of them as like a group of witches whenever in all actuality, it was really just a group of women sharing knowledge, ideas, supporting each other. Well, what, what was so wrong about that? Why did, why was that such a threat? I mean, especially, I mean, like, because obviously we, we, we look at things more equally today,

51:01but in those days it was, you know, you know, men, you know, tended to think that they had this, this superiority, which we know is not the case anymore, but why, even with that, with that mindset, why would they think this is threatening? I mean, it seems like it should be more threatening today. Now that we all know that we're kind of equal, this, that would be more, more scary to a man today than it should have been back then. So what's your thoughts on that?

51:29Well, I would say that I think there are, some of that is still true today, that the idea of women and banding together and sharing knowledge is still considered scary to many people. But I, so this, okay, like, you know that I've been talking about the topic of gossip quite a bit lately. And this is one where, like, these things just kind of all come together in such a cool way. So gossip, many years ago, centuries ago, was the name for a woman's close friend.

52:05And it was, you know, it, it was really talking about that, you know, that connection that women have. And I think there, there's some story in the Bible. I think it's like Noah and the Ark and the, his wife had a gossip that she was wanting to bring and, and he, and they, they couldn't wait. And so, I'm not a Bible expert, to be clear, but he ended up tearing her away from, from her gossip. And I think over time, there was also, it kind of, the sentiment that the, like, the women in their gossip, meaning their close friend,

52:39was taking them away from their wifely duties and taking care of the house and taking care of the kids and things like that. And so, it was kind of viewed as dangerous. Also, as, you know, as I've talked about quite a bit, gossip is a mechanism for sharing information that is oftentimes, you know, meant to help people survive, in a sense. You know, like, or, you know, now we think of gossip as people kind of whispering and sharing rumors in the office. But back then, for women to get together, especially in a time where men were quite dominant, the, you know, again, in the Salem trials, the, it was, women were very submissive.

53:15The men were very dominant, oftentimes really abusive, horrible to their wives. Women to get together, to share knowledge, to share coping mechanisms, to share, in a sense, their spells or their potions. That was seen as a threat because once that knowledge is shared, then that power dynamic started to shift. And so, there's been attempts for centuries to keep women from creating these covens, quote-unquote covens, or, you know, these communities of women to share knowledge.

53:45Yeah, and I doubt it's limited just to women. I think there's a parallel in what you've just shared, Allison, that is universal over time and across geography, which is anytime one group is in power and another is not, and decidedly in, you know, Puritan, you know, early America, that was most definitely the case. You know, men were very much in control and women had almost none. There is, there is threat found in the self-organizing of the group who is not in power, right?

54:19There's any signs or signals that they are banding together or they're acquiring power or they're transferring knowledge. Any of, any resource, any organization of that resource or that, that community would be seen as, as a threat. And I think there's always a, a equal and opposite pressure to neutralize that threat. And I think that's, that's kind of what you're referring to. Absolutely. Burning books or banning books, I think, is a perfect example of that or keeping information out of the hands of people who could use it to subvert power.

54:55Yeah. It's also how I feel when I catch my kids whispering. I'm like, oh no, they are conspiring. They're going to outnumber you and I get that. I don't know what my dogs are saying, so we'll, we'll just, uh, they're, they're saying very nice things about me. Um, of course, but, uh, okay, well, let's wrap this thing up and, and Allison, you mentioned that, you know, this is kind of the wrong question that I, that I ended with, uh, in our episode with Larry Martinez a couple of years ago.

Is witchcraft real today

55:24However, you know, since what's said, everything we've discussed and all your research aside and get to this million dollar question that I still think is relevant. Do you think some form of witchcraft in the, the air quotes, magic sins is real? And do you think it still exists today? And I want your answer to Jackie, and I'll provide mine. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm so glad to revisit this question because at that point in time, I thought it was the wrong question, but now I think it is absolutely the right question.

55:57My, my answer is yes. I think it is real in the sense that there are aspects of the world that are, that we don't know about. There are, uh, you know, as science evolves, we are finding more and more about, even like in the realm of neuroscience and like self-affirmations and things like that. I think that there is something to it. And, um, if it weren't such a persecuted type of thing, I think it would be a fascinating subject to study and see what actually is real.

56:34I mean, like anything in the kind of the paranormal or occult world, I think there's, uh, you know, it's, it's been around for centuries for a reason. So I'm going to say yes this time. I'm going to say we don't really know. I, I think, I think there is a, a, a confound in the word witch and then the companion word witchcraft. So I remember reading about this, this one book, it became like the seminal book on witches in, I don't, it was in, it was published in Germany.

57:06I don't remember the exact, uh, year in which this was published, but it became like the field guide to understanding and sniffing out witches. But if you translated the term literally, it meant, witch meant evildoer. And it was the first time the witch was made feminine, a feminine character exclusively. And so I don't think, I don't even want to answer the question because I feel like what it's saying is, do you think female evildoers are real or that they're, you know, working together in covens with potions and, and magic and stuff?

57:43But I do think, I mean, what I, what I would agree with Allison on is, I think there are many things we don't understand. And I think, um, we can't rule it out unless we, you know, study and, and try to figure out what's happening under the, the surface there. I'm going to answer this the exact same way that I believe I answered a few years ago whenever we had Cliff Berrickman from the, the, the show on Animal Planet Finding Bigfoot. But, uh, and it was the same thing about whether I believe Bigfoot is real.

58:14And, and for Gilda, you can see the Bigfoot right there. Allison's husband gave me that figurine and I put it there for him. Uh, but my answer is, I don't know, but I want it to be. Like that's, that's where, where I land. And I, I'll have to see it to be able to definitively say yes or, or no. But my answer is, I absolutely want it to be real. Cause I think that's, that'd be super cool.

58:45Um, but I, I do need to see it, but that, that's, that's where I stand. And, and, uh, Hey, maybe, maybe, maybe we're going to get to see it. I, I, I'd love it. And, you know, um, you know, my wife can, if she can keep blessing, if Oklahoma State wins a national title in football, it's real. Oh, it is so real. Your soul. So, well, you know, uh, Allison, Jackie, this has been great. I love it. Any closing thoughts before we get out of here?

59:17Thanks for letting me share this information that I've been sitting on for such a long time. This has been fun. Yeah, it was fun. I think for me, it's just, um, fascinating to, to think about no matter how kooky or, you know, off brand a topic may seem on the surface. And for a company like Hogan, where we're all about the science of, of, of human behavior and personality, you can find these amazing connections to what we do.

59:48And, you know, socioeconomic theory and, uh, how personality plays in and how the, how psychology of how people behave has, has literally changed the landscape and how the, the, the people in charge, you know, leaders matter and can be capable of doing such amazing and such atrocious things in equal measure. So, um, I guess never underestimate the power of psychology, no matter how, um, seemingly disconnected a topic might be. This has been really fun.

1:00:20Well, thank you both. And, uh, I hope our audience really enjoys this episode.

1:00:26And that does it for this episode of the Science of Personality podcast. Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun, informative, and spooky episode. Cheers, everybody.

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