Should Artists List Prices on Their Website? The Gallery Test

Introduction

0:00Coming up on today's edition of the Art Marketing Podcast, should artists list prices on their website? This is the gallery test. And specifically, everything that we do in the digital world should mimic what we do in the real world. The biggest art sellers in the world all use these basics. Artists somehow just ignore them. If you've been listening to previous episodes, you know you've got 30, 40, 50, maybe even 60 plus years left to get this right. And today

0:35is the foundation you build those years on. The basics. The basics.

Gallery Experience

0:49Welcome to Central Mexico's own UNESCO World Heritage Site rated art gallery stacked town of San Miguel de Allende. You just perambulated, I love using that word, past the historic city center and its church, down the beautiful cobblestone lined streets with the beautiful wooden doors and colors, and into an art gallery. As a piece of art caught your eye,

1:20inside the gallery are wood floors and white walls and pieces on the wall. There's breathing room and there's a gallerist on a stool by the desk. The door opens to the gallery. Someone walks in. Okay. Who just walked in? Because who walked in changes everything that happens next. So what does the gallery do for that walk-in that your website doesn't? We're spending an episode in a gallery. By the end, you will realize that we've never left your laptop. In a minute,

1:52I'm going to show you what Christie's, what Sotheby's, what Gagosian, what First Dibs, Gray, Malin, Weiland, everyone else that I've talked to or referenced on this podcast that is a pro, what they do, but almost no artist does. But first, let's walk into a gallery with me.

Digital World Basics

2:10And sorry for those bings. You guys, everything we do in the digital world should mimic what we do in the real world. What works and is proven to work already, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It is such a powerful lesson and one that I've had to learn over and over and over and over again. In this business. And that it's essentially a test that you can run on every digital decision that you make. Everything that we do in the online world as we're attempting to market our creations

2:45and grow our business. If it's something that works in the real world, the real physical world, copy it. If it doesn't work in the real world, stop doing it. Stick to what is already proven in the real world. That's the whole framework. That's it. Memorize it. Think about it. Apply it to every choice. And the thing is that as creators, you already know how to do this because you guys have walked into a thousand galleries in your life. Just as many retail stores. You already know the playbook. You already know it. The internet did not invent some sort of

3:20new game. All it did is move that same game onto a glass screen, onto a computer monitor, onto a phone, right? So stay with me for this episode. And we're going to walk through the things that every gallery does. That every artist's online presence needs to do to the website, the conversation and keeping the gallery doors open. The gallerist is in the corner. He's waiting the whole time and we are going to come back to him. So the first pillar in all of this is really the website. Okay.

Website Role

3:53I'm going to use rote in this episode. Everything we do in the digital world should mimic what we do in the real world. What works and is proven to work already. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. And your website, the website plays the gallery's role. The gallery's role is what the website has to play. And moreover, this is just a perfect opportunity for me to insert one of my often

4:23asked questions. What is the best way to sell art, you guys? It's in-person, face-to-face. It always has been. It always will be. It's proven. The problem is you, like everyone else on this planet, are geographically fixed somewhere. You can't hold more than one conversation at a time and you need to sleep. So your website solves for all of that. And I've likely, over my career at this point in time, I've likely viewed over 10,000 artists, photographers, and creators' websites.

4:56And if you want the TLDR, the too-long-didn't-read-it version of that, Houston, we have a problem. The problem is you are creatives. You guys are blessed with natural talents that, as well as education that help you understand composition and color and training and the rule of thirds, right? And your website, okay, that website that you're building, that you build on your own, it's not an art gallery in your mind. It's a blank canvas or the viewfinder on your camera.

5:31You know exactly what to do with that. In fact, you've got some great ideas on how you want it to look. And therein lies the problem. Those ideas, those beautiful ideas that you have about what your website is supposed to look like and what it's supposed to say, those are not proven ideas. Okay? Those are brand new ideas. They go against what is established fact, right? It goes against what is proven. What is one of the longest running paradigms that exists in the art business? What is the paradigm that holds true the world over, that transcends cultures and languages

6:09about how art is to be viewed and purchased? That paradigm is inside of a museum or a gallery. Either entity, whether it's a museum or a gallery, the world over, cultures over, languages over, they all pretty much look the exact same. Minimalist. They're minimalist spaces. The art is on a monochromatic wall, usually white. Light on the art and little else. No distractions. Nothing else to clutter the viewer's experience. Just art. And that's it. By the way, I'll never

6:43forget the word paradigm. I was in seventh grade in auto shop class in my places. Okay. I was super into mountain bikes back then. And the teacher started to teach us about paradigms. He goes, know what a paradigm is and how powerful they were or are, I should say, that once a paradigm is set, they're very difficult to change. Okay. You don't want to fight against that. And for the example, he asked, what do they call bicycle seats to this day? And because in that era, I had my face in a

7:15bike magazine, probably every single solitary day, I knew exactly what he was asking. Then I raised my hand up and I said, they're called saddles. And he's like, wow, that's correct. Good job. Now the paradigm that riding a horse, it was so established and so powerful. A bicycle is a similar in stature to a horse, albeit a little bit smaller. So the seat was never called a seat at all. It was called a saddle. Still is till this day. Yes. Some people call them bike seats occasionally here or there, but in magazines and oftentimes on websites and everything else,

7:45it's okay. It's a saddle. And that is just so powerfully established. It's the same with art. When I alluded to the fact that we have a problem, Houston, it's that your creativity wants to treat your website like a bike seat instead of a saddle. It's not meant to be a canvas. It's not meant to be a beautiful photograph you took. It is meant to be a gallery. Okay. It is meant to apply to the paradigm of how art, how photography is sold. The issue with the 10,000 plus

8:16artist websites that I've seen is that there is so much goofy stuff going on. Whether you choose this template, whether you design it by hand, whether you've paid a designer, however you did it, there's colors, there's distractions, there's nonsense moving around animations. Back in the day, a bunch of them had music on, which is obnoxious. No one likes a website that's automatically playing music. There's so many goofy things going on all of these websites, whether the design's beautiful or not, that it would be a modern day miracle if a user, if a visitor, if a collector, if a potential buyer

8:52came to your website and was actually able to view the art in the paradigm that has been established for how art is to be viewed and to be purchased in a gallery, in a museum, but in a gallery, right? Most artists and photographer websites are gallery doors that swing open into a cluttered storage room. Pieces stacked against the wall, no price cards, no checkout, no way to picture the word, just a row of JPEGs and nonsense language and font design. You don't want people appreciating your

9:22design aesthetic. That is not what they have come to your website for. They have come through your website to view and purchase art, which is a stated goal of yours. So all of that goofy business that artists and photographers put on their own websites, when they pick one of these templated things, it ignores the paradigm. There's too much stuff going on. Every page is competing with itself. No prices are listed or there's a contact for pricing. It's not e-commerce ready. There's no checkout. There's no real options. There's no visualization for the art. So it ends up just being

9:55a bunch of JPEGs and just JPEGs or PNGs or TIFFs or whatever the heck you have your images in, those are just flat, unframed, untreated digital images. And the JPEG was a novel thing. A digital image was a novel thing 20 years ago. They were rare. You could get away with it. Today, every human on earth scrolls past about 5,000 of those things before they even get out of bed. Okay? Your JPEG, no matter how amazing your art is, is not special. It's wallpaper. It's so common,

10:31it's invisible. As humans, we're exposed to so many of these things every single solitary day that we have just become numb to them. Okay? We've just become numb to them. The gallery does not hand a walk-in purse in a stack of four by six prints and say, go figure it out. It hangs the work. It frames it. It lights it. It prices it. The website has to do the same job. Okay? The website has to do the same job. Let alone what I see on all these websites that I'm going to put under the umbrella of

11:03the pretentious posturing. Okay? The artists who think that their website, the photographers that think their website, the trick of it is to be cool or cute or goofy backgrounds. This is just going to drive me nuts. I was in a group show in 2014. I won such and such awards. For representation or inquiries, please contact or contact my agent. Pricing available on request. Ooh, aren't you just so mysterious? The problem is, mysterious is not proven. Mysterious is some

11:34made-up construct. Whose idea was it to tell a bunch of artists and photographers that your website, the place where people are supposed to come to understand art is for sale, is your area to be mysterious? It's ridiculous. That is not proven. That is absolutely nonsense. Okay? Walk by the, walk past the best artists' websites, not the ones that have gallery representation and are on some fruited plain. Okay? Which is where I think this came from in the beginning. Some top contemporary artists, i.e. the Michael Jordan, i.e. the, I was about to say Michael Bolton. Michael

12:07Bolton is not a particularly great singer. But those artists whose websites you're copying, who are the ones that the whole world talks about and that are selling in galleries, that is, those are the unicorns. Okay? They can do whatever they want because they nailed a bunch of other things that are right. That is just not what applies to the artists and photographers and the big museums or the big gallery sites and the big art sellers. None of them do that nonsense. Not a one. Contact here for representation. Get in touch with my agent. You might as well just hang a sign on, on, on the front of your website that says, look at my art and get out of here. I

12:39don't even want to sell any of it. If the pretentious thing just drives me nuts because whose idea was it that doing that and looking cool is actually going to help you. It violates a hundred percent of the paradigm that is selling art. No master of business. Okay? None of the titans like the two that we brought up in the last that I'm going to have to keep bringing up in future episodes. None of them do that nonsense. It is not proven to sell art. Walk into a real gallery. You guys walk into a real gallery, then get your phone, pull up your website and look at your website and then look at the gallery walls.

13:13Go and do that sometime if you've got a gallery close to where you live, right? Or the next time that you're on vacation and you're somewhere where there is a gallery. If your website does not make the stranger feel the same way you do when you're inside of that gallery, you've got work to do. Okay? You've got work to do.

Research Findings

13:29And I dispatched my AI to do some research. Okay? And the numbers are like, all of the published information on this is like, it is so damning and so telling at the same time, I'm going to rattle off a bunch of them here. This is from the Artsy Platform Sales Analysis in December 2019. Artworks with visible prices are two to six times more likely to sell than the same works with hidden prices. Next, and I quote, 90% of new art buyers say price transparency is a key

14:00consideration when buying online, end quote. That's from the Hiscox report 2018. Next, and I quote, 81% of high net worth collectors say it is important or essential to have a price posted online. That's from the Art Basel UBS study in 2020. And I'll put links to all this in the footnotes so you guys can go read our footnotes and show notes, I should say. And I quote, 88% of online art buyers say clear price labeling plus access to past and comparable prices is crucial. Also from Hiscox. Next, and I quote,

14:3569% of collectors hesitate to buy because of lack of transparency. 60% want more pricing transparency. Only 5% call the market completely transparent. That's from Artsy's Art Market Trends Report 2025. Next, and I quote, 43% of online art buyers name a lack of the visible price is a top barrier to buying, end quote. Artsy 2025. Next, and I quote, 96% of online art platforms agree price transparency is

15:07key to building trust, end quote. Hiscox 2020. There's just stat after stat about how important having pricing on the website is all of the galleries are doing it. All of the top art sellers are doing it because there's a generational gut punch here is really what it comes down to. Older collectors, of which I'm saying probably 60 and up, 55 and up, they grew up with this price on request gallery game. They're still going to tolerate it, right? Because they've lived their whole life that way.

15:40The collectors under 50, though, does not. They were done with that nonsense. I'm in that bucket. 92% of buyers under 35 use Instagram for art. 92%. And that's from another one of those reports. And 71% of collectors under 37 bought art online last year. And those buyers, they expect a pricing card. They expect a checkout button, hide the price, and they're gone. They're not even mad. They just scroll on because they're confused because your website is not communicating what

16:10someone is supposed to do when they hit it, okay? The pretentious posture drives me absolutely nuts, right? The next generation wants, your buyers wants pricing on your website, okay? It's like established collectors are used to that stupid confidentiality and nonsense, but a lack of price transparency for all new buyers. And it's even converting some of the older buyers. They want that transparency, okay? They need that transparency. And I would go even further. The shop on your website is not there

16:50just to take money. The shop is a signal, okay? There's alchemy at play in this whole thing. When a visitor lands on a site with a real e-commerce shop, prices, options, checkup button, wall preview, the visitor knows exactly what that site is for. They know exactly what they are there for, right? And the alchemy is it just puts them in a frame of mind, right? Okay, there's art here. That's for sale. I'm basically in an art gallery. I am going to take this artist seriously. This artist is taking this

17:22seriously. And I feel like that signal does more work in three seconds than you could do with a thousand words of coffee. It's the alchemy of the whole thing. Alchemy is the boring version of magic, where you put the shop up and the visitor finally understands what you've been trying to tell them. This is a business. This is not a hobby. I am not some special mysterious person. Go contact my dealer. Things here are for sale. You're welcome here. I'd love to have you buy some, right? And we can argue all day long why it works, how it works. What we can't argue against you guys is the paradigm of

17:56buying art is in a gallery. Everything that we attempt to do in the online world is just mimic what works. And that's being inside of an art gallery. That is why your website needs to mimic that. That is why all of the masters of commerce in art today are following these rules. It's just, it's just taking what works in the real world and moving it to the digital world. There's going to be checkout. There's going to be wall visualization. There's going to be email capture. None of it's

18:30even exotic. Everyone online has the dentist, the plumber, the bakery, the auto shop. Everyone figured this out a long time ago, right? The website plays the art gallery's role. Make it act like, just make it act like, I don't know why all of the masters do this and artists don't, but it just is what it is. That is the first primary pillar to this entire thing. The second pillar is a combination

Social Media Strategy

18:56of your social and your marketing. To just be a human being, to have conversations. Why? Wrote, everything we do in the digital world should mimic what we do in the real world. What works and is proven to work already. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. And I've been ranting about this all year long on the podcast, right? All these episodes have been taking shot at the socials because I know how hard it is and I know what you guys just default to. And I just, I don't understand why we just

19:28absolutely need to fix it. Okay. The website is your art gallery. Okay. The socials to an extent, let's talk about all those people that are going to walk past that gallery window, right? Just be human and just have conversations. Be human in your marketing. Be human and have conversations. That's like literally it. That's, that, that's it. That's everything. That's everything you've been over-complicating about social media and your email and your marketing for the last 10

20:01years. Be human and have conversations. Repeat that until you can say it in your sleep, because it's, it's the most important thing, right? And what do I constantly get for the last 12 years? I've been hearing this week in, week out. Patrick, I'm so great in person. I'm so great selling in person. I do a great job. Okay. But I just can't translate that to, to, to social media or my marketing or my website. I just, I have such a hard time doing it. And you're not bad at translating. You're just

20:32translating yourself into the wrong language. You're translating yourself into corporate Instagram or a brand newsletter. And it's got to stop. It's got to stop. The translation is do what you already do at an opening in the real world. When you're face to face with a human being on a screen, just do that on a screen, the same voice, the same stories, the same warmth, the same conversation, the same vulnerability, the same way you read a room, the platforms in digital

21:05and all of the marketing that you're doing. It didn't change the game. They just moved the room. And I know that all sounds so corny, but it's just still so true. Where did things go so far off the rails that all of you guys are so remarkably great in person. And then everything else is like, I struggle. I had paralysis. I could barely move. I don't know what to say. I'm awkward. I'm camera shy. All of the various different things. You just have to do you in person. That's how you got to think

21:37about it, right? Like for some reason, the second artist hit publish today, they turned into some sort of giant corporate entity, which was like the antithesis of what art stands for and what most artists want to be in the state admission statement. Filtered photos and captions written by like an ad agency and subject lines lifted from some sort of SaaS template, selling, selling, selling all the time. And none of what would happen at an opening in an art gallery ever makes it into your marketing.

22:08The chitchat on an opening night at a gallery or show. It's messy. It's personal, specific, funny, warm. It perambulates about, I used that word twice. It perambulates about who you are and what's going on in your life. And yes, then you talk about the art. And so is good social. So is good email. It just does that online. That's it. That's it. And this sacred cow, if you're going to be a creative, you're going to be a creative online that's just art photography, say that 10 times

22:39fast. And I don't know who came up with that asinine guideline that your social media is supposed to be your art, right? Just finished pieces, no artisan site, no captioning with substance, no story, no human, no conversations. It's just a flat out violation of everything that works in the real world. It just pisses in the face of the paradigm. And it's not even how you behave. You're not like that. I know because I've talked to so many of you guys. You don't sound like that. You don't. If we get into a conversation or I see you on a webinar or I'm teaching a class or I meet

23:11someone in person, you're not just vomiting out about your art the whole entire time. Like where is the conversation? Where is the human? That's just a flat out violation of everything that works in the real world. That is ultimately what it is. Walk into a real gallery on opening night and you don't only see the work. You see the artists, the wine, the cheese, the galleries work in the room, other collectors, conversations. That's the place that we want to be. Yes, the work is the reason that somebody walks in there, okay? But it's not the only thing in the room. If it was the only thing in the room, nobody would buy. Where are the conversations? Where's the wine? Where's the

23:45cheese? Where's the gallerist? Where's some other people that like art too that I might meet? Now go to your own Instagram or go to some other artist's Instagram. Work. It's not a conversation. It's a catalog. If I want a catalog, I'll order one from Sears. I wonder if Sears still does that. No artist, no room, no conversation, no wine, no cheese. To quote Goble Bordello, no marinated hearing. That's in a song that makes me laugh. But there's just no reason. There's no reason to come back to that social media platform. Why would I want to do that? Why would anyone want

24:16to do that? And that is why the algorithms don't reward artists, don't reward photographers. I've obviously covered this a ton, right? But it's your social media can't be a gallery with the lights off. The art is on. The doors are locked. No staff, no opening, no artists in the backroom sketching. Why would anyone stop their scroll for that, right? Why would they do that? So you've got to treat your social media. You've got to treat your marketing as if you are a human. You have to have conversations, okay? Mix the feed, mix the email messaging, mix the website copy the same way that

24:50you would behave in a real gallery opening. Of course, your work is going to be there front and center. But there's also going to be you in the studio, your hands, your process, your dog, your reference photos, your half-finished mess, your morning coffee with the first piece of the day on the easel, your kid drawing next to you, the new tubes you just unbox, all the things that make a gallery a place worth walking back into. The art is the reason that everything else is the reason that

25:21they are going to come back, the reason they're going to want to come back. So be human, you guys. Show your thing. Show your hand. Show the studio. Show the dog. Stop hiding behind the work. Stop hiding behind the lens. That opening night attendee that came to meet you to understand who you are. The follower came to meet you. So have conversations. Reply to comments like you'd reply to a person standing in front of you. Read direct messages like a phone call you owe them back. Write an email like a letter

25:54to a friend who collects your work. Don't broadcast. Stop broadcasting. Start conversing. Two ways, you guys, is the whole point. One way is a billboard. Billboards don't sell paints. They just don't. So go back. Audit your social media. Read out your last email. Would you say those words to a real person standing in front of you at a gallery? The answer to that is no. And then you've got to rewrite the screen.

26:25What is it about the screen? The screen didn't change you into a brand. Okay. It didn't turn you into a logo. It just moved the room. That's it. That's it. And all of the pros, all of the real art sellers. Okay. The big dogs, even the auction houses sound like humans on social. Sotheby posts behind the scenes auction footage. Christie's specialists do video walks throughs and their own actual voices. Gagosian stories show artists in their studios and humanize them. The Giants figured this out a long time ago. That people buy from people, not from logos. Okay.

27:02Why artists don't do this? I don't know. That's why this podcast exists. Your website needs to be like an art gallery. Your marketing needs to be human and like a real conversation. It needs to sound like a real conversation, which leads us to the third pillar of this entire operation. The gallery

Gallery Consistency

27:22has to be open. It has to be open. Why? Because everything we do in the digital world should mimic what we do in the real world. What works and is proven to work already. You've got to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Even with a proper art gallery website, human marketing and conversations going on. None of that is enough, you guys, if the gallery is closed. None of it's enough if the gallery is closed. Your marketing in this case, all of it, what you do online, what you do offline is

27:56just a proxy for whether or not your gallery doors are open. In the mall, on Main Street, the high street, as the Euros might say, is it open? Is the gallery open? Because a gallery with the lights off on a Wednesday afternoon loses every Wednesday walk-in. A gallery with a hand-scrolled sign back at three went fishing? That sign loses every collector who showed up at two. A gallery closed three months in summer because the artist's burnout loses the entire selling season. The gallery has to

28:28be open every weekday, every weekend that matters. Every holiday push, every quiet Tuesday in February, when one collector, one, walks past with their kid and stops in the window. And if you go back, if you go back to the last episode, it's, I know that this is the hardest thing to do, is the consistency. It's really hard. But remember, you do your measure best. You just can't go dark. There are some years, some vintages, okay, that will be better than others, but the doors have to stay open as much as you can. And you guys, it's the real truth. It is legit the hardest part of being

29:03an artist, just keeping the gallery open. And yet in the real world, galleries are always open. They're always open, you guys. They're not offline, okay? They're not, the doors are closed. They're not going dark for months at a time. They're not open at asinine, weird, infrequent hours, although I'd still take that rather than the doors being closed completely, right? And when you think of a gallery who's going to have a gallerist, perhaps a receptionist, maybe a framer, maybe a bookkeeper,

29:34somebody to answer the phone when the designer calls at 4.55 on a Tuesday, somebody to email a warm collector when the new series drops, somebody to keep the lights on, why the artist is in the studio actually making work. Everything that we do in the digital world just seeks to run the paradigm environment that exists in the real world. And that's it. And when you come off the gas in your marketing, you're effectively closing the doors to your gallery. That's how you need to think about it. And when you think about it that way, everything changes. It's not about, was I consistent or not

30:07consistent? It's the gallery doors were open or they were not open. Was I open to serendipity? No different than the serendipity that happens in the real world. What happens in the real world? Those gallery doors are open. Somebody walks the high street, somebody walks main street, somebody walks the mall. Their wife is in some other room shopping or their husband. They perambulate in, I've used it three times, perambulate. It's wonderful. Perambulate into your gallery. They see something that they really like. They get a little story from the gallerist. The piece sticks in their mind. They

30:39tell their significant other. They come back. All of that serendipity is just lost when the lights turn off, okay? When things go dark. And it can't happen. It can't happen. We have to follow the paradigm. We have to do what works in the real world, right? And I've talked about the product that we have of Copilot, right? And Copilot is because we have control of your website, because we have all of your email addresses, okay? Because we are connected to your socials, we can post on your

31:10behalf and run marketing campaigns and send emails, right? And what we do with that product is that product essentially becomes the gallerist, okay? It essentially ensures that the gallery doors are never closed, okay? Now, the product is its own worst enemy, because what it can do is be your gallerist. What it can't do is be human and have conversations, because that requires the artist. So the knock of it is a bunch of people will sign up for it, not be human, not have conversations, say my marketing

31:46is covered. I don't need to worry about it. And then get upset when they're not getting the results, because I thought it was posting consistently. So it's a double-edged sword, that one. But what we found that's so profound is the artists that are on that, they don't miss. The gallery doors stay open. And as a result of that, they end up selling more art. It's just the consistency. And none of this was known when that thing got created, okay? We've had years of it now, and we can go back and look at the data. And it's just another one of these things that you just learned that it slaps in the

32:17face. Because trust me when I say, we as a business at Art Storefronts, me and my life as a digital marketer, have tried to reinvent things and not follow the paradigm. And think somehow, because it's online, because it's digital, the rules are the same. And they're not. They're not. Everything that we do, you guys, everything that we do, just attempts to mimic what works in the real world. There's just no reinventing the wheel, right? There's just no reinventing the wheel. And I get objections sometimes, Patrick, my gallery's never had a website that does any of that. I sold for years

32:52off Instagram and doing shows. I don't need any of this. And they're sure, but the next 10 years are not like the last 10. The shift to digital walk-ins, okay, is not slowing, it's accelerating. Every collector under 50 today starts on a screen. They all do. Everyone does. Everyone's on a phone all day long. Every interior designer sourcing for a client today opens 30 tabs or 30 different Instagram accounts before they call anyone, right? Every Google or GPT or perplexity query is just a

33:24walk-in that you never see happen. The offline walk-ins are not going away. The online ones are stacking on top of them at an alarming rate. And you just cannot skip the online art gallery anymore. Not if you want to be an artist still selling in 2055. So pick which 85-year-old artist you're going to be. If you stick to proven, if you nail the basics, you're going to be the one whose phone is still ringing. And that's where we want you to be. So you got some homework to do. And you can just audit yourself

33:56on this, right? Walk through your site. Walk to your feed, your last email. If you don't have a site, you need a site, get a site, okay? But walk through your site, your feed, your last email. Does the website tell a stranger they're welcome to buy in the first three seconds? Is the price visible without an inquiry form or contact my agent? Can the visitor see the work on a wall? Before they buy? Why do all the best art sellers have that technology? Does your feed have humans

34:27in it? Or is it just art and more art? Is there a conversation happening in your email replies, in your direct messages? Or is it just broadcasting announcements? When you read your last email out loud, does it sound like you? Or does it sound like a brand or a logo or robot? Audit those. Give yourself a score. Pick the lowest. And that's what you're working on right now. And you guys, the basics in this episode are tomorrow morning's work. They're not next quarters. They're not next months. They're not next year. They're not when I retire. These things compound and they compound in a measurable way, okay? Everything that we do in the digital world should just mimic what we do in

35:04the real world, what works and is proven to work already. So stop trying to reinvent. But on that note, thanks for listening. And as always, have a great day.