The Artist's Guide to Instagram Live (Even If You Hate Being on Camera)

0:00Coming up on today's edition of the Art Marketing Podcast, it's the artist's guide to Instagram Live. Even if you hate being on camera, specifically, we're going to transition this year's episodes from conceptual to the tactical. This will be your quick start guide to going live on Instagram and why it's a really good idea to do so. And continuing to build this year, it's been a theme so far in 2026, I'm trying to stitch and weave more podcast episodes together so they're more coherent, form a narrative, a line, you can connect the dots, so to speak.

0:51So I'm going to spend a little bit more time doing that on how all of these things tend to build on one another. And, you know, we started the year out talking about AI more broadly and how it's going to affect 2026 in the years to come and how everything is fake now, how real is how you win, how effort is the new truth, right? That was a good episode, I think. We talked about Instagram quite a few different times, right? And, you know, the fact that it is still the platform, right? The visual search engine, you guys all have visual things that you're creating, so that's where we need to spend our marketing time.

1:27And that you have to stop being one-dimensional on that platform. That art sales are 50-50 or 60-40 or 70-30 or 80-20. You, who you are, what makes you tick just as important, right? As the artwork is itself.

1:45I've harangued and banged and ranted about story, about your story, about how you're going to be real, about how you're going to show your humanity, your flaws, you're going to be vulnerable. Well, let me just tell you, there's no better way to do that than be a live broadcast. And I will go on record saying, Instagram Live, in my opinion, going live on Instagram, is the most underutilized, highest proof of real tool you have.

2:18Almost nobody does it. And that is your edge. You can totally use this. I'm going to show you how. I'm excited about today's episode. And so I want to make the case on why it's such an underutilized and valuable tactic. But I will give you some history first because I think you and I can relate. You and I can relate because I know what you're saying in your head when you saw the title for this thing and then you started listening to it.

2:49You hate being on video. You're not an actor. You don't particularly enjoy that type of thing, right? I'm not either. I hate it as well. Despite me being a loud mouth, I'm actually an introvert at heart. I hate going live. You know, for all of the reasons when you hear the word live and video and you in the same sentence and you're running for the exits are all of the reasons that when I hear live and video and me, I'm running for the same exits. Historically, though, I can back this up for the first four or five years of art storefronts.

3:26But I was never on live video even once. Okay. Number one, I hate being on video. Number two, I have a face for radio. Number three, I talk too fast. Number four, I tend to slur some of my words. Okay. I am the last person that should be on video. But what changed? COVID hit. That was a terrifying time to be in business. Nobody knew what was going to happen. So we decided sort of as a company that we were going to go on offense.

3:56The overall streaming technology and stack back then in like 2020 was still pretty nascent, still pretty new, but starting to emerge as a viable option. So we started hammering it as a company. We started doing live webinars and live broadcasts and started talking to people, you know, via these live channels. And it turns out when everyone is locked in their homes, it is a really good time to pick up a live broadcasting habit. Despite the fact that there is not as much opportunity in live streaming then or now as there was then just because of those extraordinary times, we've never stopped.

4:37We've never stopped since then. And not because it's easy, not because I enjoy it, but because I am contrarian and I know it just works. It works extremely, extremely well, despite being the pain in the butt, despite not wanting to do it. You know, I went and got some stats because I was curious and it was even hard to find stats. OK, there are so few people taking advantage of this feature on Instagram that it was like difficult to get stats.

5:10What I could find is that the opportunity gap. OK, and I've already mentioned that no one is doing this. No one's doing this. OK, no one is doing this. A hundred million people watch Instagram live daily. OK, already, despite the fact no one's doing it. Only 14 percent of marketers out there consider a live video important. What do they know? Live video among marketers has dropped 56 percent over the last couple of years because everyone has been chasing reels. Right.

5:40And like the biggest Instagram benchmark studies that I could find and I went searching. They don't even really track live as a category because it's too rare to measure. So few people are doing it. It is too rare to measure. Right. I mean, consumers say 82 percent of users say they prefer live video from brands, which just basically means there is a massive demand for it and almost no supply. Right. Almost no supply. And, you know, I would go as far to say like the Googled stats aside and the marketing case studies and everything that I looked at, like.

6:15For as long as I've been doing this, I have barely seen. I mean, the art storefronts account is like 260, 270,000 Instagram followers somewhere in there. And we follow thousands. I, aside from an artist or a photographer here or there, aside from my customers that are harangued enough to get to do it once or twice. I almost see no one ever doing it. And, you know, the minute someone's doing it because your little avatar lights up and you can see it and it gets the prominent space on the top of the story rings or on top of the story rack or column or row or whatever we want to call it.

6:49So the ones you and the ones that have like do, uh, the artist used to do them all the time. I barely see him doing them anymore. It's like even the people that have started doing it and realizing how powerful it is all end up burning out or quitting or not doing it. Okay. And boy, is that a mistake? Boy, boy, boy, is that a mistake? The engagement stats. These are interesting. Live generates 10 times more engagement than regular posts. What do you all need? More engagement. Three times more engagement than pre-recorded videos.

7:22That's from Meta's data. Creators who host weekly lives see 3.7x more comments. That is 100% my experience as well. 37% of overall engagement on Instagram actually comes from the live sessions. People love these things. They're craving them. They want more of them. 57% of viewers watch three quarters or more of a session. And somewhere around 30% actively comment. My stats are a little bit lower than that. Probably like 10% to 15% actively comment.

7:53But they comment a lot. And hidden in those fancy stats is like, I'm going to call it the algorithm bypass. Okay. Instagram wants you to do this. The more you go live on Instagram, their data says the more you keep other people on their platform. Anytime we can get in the same boat as Instagram and row in the same direction, you're going to get a little bit of extra love out of that.

8:24Right? You're going to get some extra love. So if a regular post, you know, the stats say that's like 3.5% of your followers are going to see that. Okay? When you go live, you guys, your avatar, your Instagram profile photo, whatever you want to call it, I like calling it an avatar, gets this special little light around the outside of it. You've probably even barely seen it because so few people go live. It is impossible to ignore when it happens. And what it does is it puts you in the number one spot of the story tray.

8:57Okay? That's what it's called. I call it a rogothor. The story tray. So you are extremely visible to your followers that are online at the moment when you are engaged in a live broadcast from the time you start until the time that you end. Okay? That alone makes it so insanely valuable. I mean, it's almost like you're guaranteed to get your followers' attention for the entire hour that you are online.

9:29You can only be on, do it up to an hour, then Instagram cuts it off. Side note, we can get into that in a second. But this little glowing ring, it's like pink, turtle, blue circle thing. It's like animated. It is so visually distinct from everything else on the platform. It's amazing. Sometimes Instagram will send push notifications to your most engaged followers. It's sort of a little bit of a black box, but I know that happens. But it's essentially like Instagram is tapping your followers on the shoulder and say, hey, come on, I'm live.

9:59Come watch. Come watch. Come watch. So, you know, when's the last time Instagram put you at the front line of anything for free? Right? This just does it. Another huge benefit of it, okay, is the guest collab feature. You can have up to four people in one individual live broadcast, okay? I know video is terrifying. I know going live is terrifying. So grab a friend, okay? Grab a friend. Grab a colleague. Grab an art critic.

10:30Grab a buyer. Grab somebody. And you can put up to four people in one individual window, which is a huge, huge thing, right? And the guest collab feature is really amazing. Each guest that you add so you could team up with another artist, you could team up with another photographer, someone in the space. And it's this beautiful collaboration thing where your audience becomes aware of them and their audience becomes aware of you. You guys are kind of sharing an audience and it just makes the entire thing a little bit easier.

11:00And, you know, quick side note, it's like, you know, the whole collab thing. Are you aware of how big of a deal this is in music right now? Has anyone else noticed this? I'm sort of in a country music phase. Is that something that you just go through when you get older, by the way? Because I'm in my mid to late 40s, or I guess I'm still in my mid 40s, that you start paying more attention to country music while it's happening, full disclosure. Anyway, I've been noticing it more and more and more, and I'm like, my goodness, I've got to go Google about this, right?

11:31Like our last episode, we borrowed some tradecraft from a different type of an artist and a comedian. I love that on this episode, we can borrow some tradecraft from the musicians. So I did some Googling on this, okay?

11:46Only one out of 100 songs on the current Billboard Hot 100 is a true solo effort. An average hit now has 6.6 collaborators, up from 1.7 in the 1970s. And the killer examples of this, like you see it so much in music, particularly in country, but Post Malone and Morgan Wallen. I had some help, broke Spotify's all-time country streaming record day one, 15.9 million, debuted number one on whatever the hot country chart is.

12:22Shabuzi, yes, there's a guy named Shabuzi, I think that name is hilarious. Shabuzi and Beyonce did one, number one, Billboard history, 19 weeks. Zach Bryan and Kacey Musgraves did one, I Remember Everything, gave them their first number one ever. Noah Kahn, who's a different type of an artist, he turned one into, he did like an entire album, a second album that was all about collaborators. You know, he recorded an album and then he came back and recorded the whole album all over again using guest collaborators for every single solitary one.

12:55And he absolutely hit home runs with that. Post Malone's done it a bunch too. But the long and the short is, the point is, the music industry is taking notice of this and they're like, oh my gosh, this notice of collaboration where you can combine audiences is really, really proving to be a tremendous way to extend one's reach. So Instagram allows for that, okay, natively, right out of the box. That's an incredible, incredible thing. And to go back to the first episode of the year on how with AI, everything that we see on a screen is going to be faked by the time we get to end in 2026.

13:31A live broadcast is one of the hardest things to fake, period. Okay. The technology basically doesn't even exist yet. And I'm sure it will at some point in time. But in the meantime, this is just an incredible, incredible way to go about it. So long story short, I want you guys all to start doing Instagram lives. Okay. Short story long. I know that we all need to crash through the fear wall. We need to crash through the fear wall.

14:01I am going to help you with this because I have done this time and time again. I know how to do it. I've been down in this hole before and I know the way out. Okay. It's okay to be terrified of being on video. It's okay to not really know what to say. It is okay to be nervous. It is okay to have heart palpitations. It is okay to be absolutely terrible at it. When you start, all of that is completely normal. Going back to last week's episode again, it's okay for some of your jokes to bomb.

14:36That is a part of the feature, right? That is a part of the learning process. The beautiful thing, especially with Instagram live is like, you just don't need to be polished or perfect. That's the whole point of it. People respect the real. And moreover, there's no one right way to do it. You know, messy studio, screw up on your art, perhaps a little swear word squeaks out. All of that is real. That is the stuff that people glom on to. The cat knocks over the water cup,

15:07the dog barks, the kids are yelling, your spouse wanders in. All of that is normal. All of that is incredible. You know, all of what we live in our lives, like these moments, the normal day-to-day routine-y type of stuff. That's the incredible content. You guys, nobody knows your personality. No one knows who you are. A photo, even a reel, cannot communicate the way that a live broadcast can. When you're raw,

15:38when you're unfiltered, when it is a direct window into who you are. So you've got to just give people a window into your world. And the live broadcasts on Instagram are so insanely effective at this. So a beautiful thing is that when you go live on Instagram, okay, when you do this for the very first time, Instagram gives you an option to go into practice mode. It gives you an option to do close friends, meaning you can have a list of friends and only broadcast to those folks, or you can go public.

16:09So there's this nice little graduated exposure ladder when you get started with this, okay, that can take off some of the edges, take off some of the fear, take off some of the paranoia, and really, really just keep it going, okay? Once the Instagram broadcast is over, you can just delete it. I do this all the time, okay? Yes, there are things that you can do after the fact with the broadcast after you've finished it, but you can just delete it. In fact, you can kill the thing midstream.

16:42Very few people are going to see it. The point I'm trying to make is it is an extremely low-risk activity, especially when you're just getting started and you don't have a huge audience. No one's even really watching it first anyway. And that's like the gift to this whole thing. It's not a problem. You gotta practice with way less public pressure, and the minute you're done with it, if you don't like it, you hit delete, it gets memory hold. No one even knows that you did it. No one saw the whole thing. Not even your mom will see it, right? And then she watches everything.

17:13So it's set up to let you crash through the fear wall in a very, very comfortable way, okay? It really is. It really, really is. And I mean, I know how terrifying it is, but it really, really is. You're gonna need reps and sets to get good at it, right? The first one will suck. The 10th one won't, right? You'll start getting better. You can also schedule it up to 90 days out, and your followers will get a reminder when you do this. And so it allows you to be a little bit more

17:44intentional about it. Now, the rub on this is as a result of August 2025, this was not the case before. You have to have 1,000 followers to be able to do it. So if you've got 1,000 followers, you are clear to do this, okay? If you don't have 1,000 followers yet, listen to all the rest of the Instagram episodes in this podcast and get there. You have some motivation. You have a target to hit, right? One more reason to be posting multidimensional content and not just your art and your photography

18:15and your creations all day, right? Let's get into some of the tactical. And I think what I'll do, well, let me just get through the episode and then I'll tell you some downstream, down the line things that we can talk about. So let's talk about the tactical. This is the most beautiful thing. You do not need any specialized equipment for this whatsoever. It totally works just using your phone and having it be on speakerphone. You don't even need wired earbuds, earpods, headphones, wireless. You don't even need any of that.

18:46You can do it just with your phone, right? If you do want to use AirPods or if you do want to use the wired earbuds or whatever they call them on Android, pixel buds or whatever, you can totally do that. You can lean the phone against a book. It can be on a simple stand. It could be on a tripod. You could have a selfie stick. You could have your significant other hold it. You could be running with it. You can be walking with it. You can wedge it inside of the card dashboard or lean it on a shelf. You can do it any which way you want. The more raw, the more unpolished it is,

19:19the better it works, you guys. The better it works. It's just you being real. And no matter what type of artist you are and no matter what type of art you're creating, whether you're on the photo side of the house or you're on the art side of the house, there are so many opportunities where you guys are working on retouching pictures or in your studio painting at night. I mean, a great many of you are night owls. Like, it is so friction-free and easy

19:49to just turn the phone on and start talking because that's all it takes. It's a couple of buttons. You turn it on. You start talking. Every once in a while, you look at the screen. If no one's there, no worries. You just got some practice in. If someone is there, you call them out. You call out their screen and you say, hey, Patrick, what's up? How's your night going? Go back to retouching photos. Come back in a few minutes. See what they said, right? It's really, really easy. You almost don't even need a topic sometimes to get started, especially for you guys when you're doing your process stuff, right?

20:21You can just turn the thing on, start talking, talking about what you're retouching, talking about what happened with the shoot, talking about your thoughts, what worked, what didn't, what gear you used, what you're painting, why you're painting it. Or don't talk about any of that. Talk about what's going on in your life. Like it doesn't even matter, okay? Just to get started. On some tactical, okay? You go live, and I feel like I need to do some sort of a call.

20:51Again, I'll get to that in the end. You go live. You leave a comment on your own screen. You put your finger over the comment, and Instagram lets you pin the comment, okay? So you can have this little pinned comment while you're live, the entire broadcast, giving them a call to action. It's a really, really cool way to do things. So do that. It can be a call to action for anything. It can say, hey, leave me a comment. Hey, tell me where you're from. Hey, do you like this title,

21:23or do you like that title? Hey, follow me on my profile. Hey, show coming up in two weeks, right? An in-person show, or maybe you're going to release a new piece. You can literally do anything with a call to action, right?

21:36Just make sure that when you start it, okay? When you start the live broadcast, to restate your topic every five minutes or so, because people are constantly dropping in and dropping out. You don't want latecomers to feel lost. You can welcome these folks. I will say that I think the audio matters more than the video. Bad lighting is forgivable. Bad audio makes people leave. So do try to make sure that you don't have your music blaring in the background. Try to wear headphones if you can.

22:08But the most important thing is that you just do one, okay? Don't do one. And just act like the phone is not even there for the most part. Where people usually get hung up, in my experience, having seen a ton, a ton, a ton of people do this, and including encouraging my customers to do their first one, is to worry like you have to look at the phone and babysit the phone and wait and sit and wait for people to join on the phone. Like, none of that matters. You just turn it on, and you go for it. You just go for it, and you start ranting,

22:38you start raving. Do your thing. Check in and see if anyone's watching. Talk a little bit. Talk about something else. Come back. Take a look at it. Don't just be sitting there going, okay, is this thing on? Is this thing on? Is it working? Is anyone there? Can you hear me? Don't worry about any of that. Just hit the live button. Go live and see what happens. Let's talk about some of the benefits, okay? Let's talk about some of the benefits. Why are you going to do this?

23:04The algorithmic boost, the minute you do this, the minute that you hit that live button and your avatar lights up and it goes to the top of the stories, you are guaranteed that your followers are going to know you are alive. Your followers are going to know that you are doing marketing. Your followers are going to be curious what you are talking about this time, and you're going to end up getting more engagement than probably just about any post that you've done. It is just that effective. And for a great many of you that are like,

23:36you know, the algorithm is stacked against me. I'm getting so little engagement. People are barely checking out what I'm doing. Is Instagram broken? They don't like artists. Just try this. No one is doing this, okay? And by virtue of the fact that no one's doing it, that means you'll become the shiny object if you do. So the algorithmic boost right out of the gate, tremendous, tremendous. It also really just amplifies the friend signal.

24:06And if anyone's seen any of my lies, you know, I pay very close attention to what Adam Mosseri says on his Instagram. And Adam Mosseri is the head of Instagram, and he's constantly using the word friend this, friend that, friend signal, more time with friends, chat with friends. Instagram is just on the gas right now about anything that you do where you're interacting with your friends. The live broadcasts are immediately going to bring your friends in because they are going to be very curious and want to see what the heck you're up to. And the fact that

24:36you can bring them in, okay, you can bring them in with this broadcast with this new type of content that no one's using is going to help you out, okay? It's also a content machine, you guys. Going live is an absolute content machine. I mean, you could downstream of creating one video, you could create so many different assets. You've got the live broadcast. Once it's done, you can save it as a reel. You can then download the whole thing. You can clip it into separate reels.

25:08You can do little snippets here, there, anywhere, put it into stories, drop the thing into stories. It's like the ultimate piece of content gift that just keeps giving and giving and giving. You can screenshot comments on it when it's running. Throw that in your stories. It's like, if you can get over the terror, okay, that is not being polished, not having a script, not having hair and makeup, not being a Kardashian, not having an acting background and just stage fright in general,

25:38this is the ultimate lazy marketers. Greatest gift ever for the sheer amount of just motion, okay, that it produces and especially everything that comes downstream as a result of it, and by the way, there is no better way for an artist or a photographer to sell art outside of being in person face-to-face than live selling on video. Yes, it's great on Zoom but on live broadcast,

26:09the fact that you can articulate what your art is about, show it off, potentially sell it, huge deal, huge deal, okay, it is incredible for commerce, it is the next best thing to being face-to-face, okay, and it allows you to reach your entire geographic audience and guess what, if it was a crappy broadcast, don't worry about any of that nonsense, hit delete, move on, just move on, right, and when you, when you think about like the time, energy, and effort

26:40that most artists spend, you know, working on that one post or that carousel and potentially doing the design and going through the whole song and dance, with the live, you just press the button and you start talking, okay, we all do this all day long already, all it is is just ignoring that that camera even exists and just going about your business, have a little conversation, have a little side chat with a friend, laugh about the good old days, it really, it, it is,

27:11it is, it is one of the easiest and fastest ways to incorporate personality in an outside over, over, in, over indexed impact that you guys could possibly have, okay, people get to know you so incredibly quickly if you can do this, so incredibly quickly and even better still, like there's such a ladder, there's such an advanced level up after you get through just doing it a couple of times, okay, now number one,

27:41you could start with the iPhone, nothing else, start with the Android phone, nothing else, level two, you could level up to AirPods or you could level up to Pixel Buds or Beats headphones or whatever else, okay, then you could level up with potentially a tripod, then you could level up with a potential ring light or some of you already have it, then you could level up with a wireless microphone, those things cost like 80 bucks, okay, and then you could level up with software, so there's, there's so much room to grow into this particular

28:12discipline of marketing that you can reward yourself with text and gadgetry and little tools along the way. Now, one of the greatest things that's happened, and I don't want anyone stressing about this right out of the gates, okay, but one of the greatest things that's happened is Instagram has finally opened, this has been like a year now, but it's finally opened up its platform to being able to broadcast to it

28:42with software, okay, what do I mean by that? And, and technically, maybe Instagram has been open for this for like two years, but it's only been in the last year that they've actually allowed you to broadcast in a cell phone, you know, vertical portrait modality rather than what your TV looks like, the horizontal modality, so it doesn't fill up the screen, and this has really unlocked a tremendous amount. Because with this software that you can buy, and I'm going to give you options and tell you about it in a second,

29:13but again, this is for advanced users.

29:16You can share your screen, which means you could navigate to your website, which means you could be working with the client, showing variants, different pieces. Uh, you could navigate to just about any Instagram, any, any website you wanted. You could show off a slideshow, right? You could use any software you have on your computer, period, because it will allow you to show it. So you could play audio, you could play video, you can do just about anything with the software,

29:47which is really, really tremendous. And I should say that Instagram has their own called Instagram Live Producer, which is totally free to try. So you don't even need to buy anything, okay? And this will allow you to use your webcam on your computer, and a lot of you guys have Macs and the webcams on Macs are really, really good right out of the box. So I think that'll give you a tremendous opportunity alone. So I'll put some links to that in the show notes. And then once you graduate to the software side of the aisle, okay,

30:17then you're really cooking with gas. And there's two different platforms that kind of own this right now. And one is called Restream, another one is called StreamYard, okay? I think they're between like $20 and $40 a month to use these. But what they allow you to do is one, go live on Instagram. Two, add other platforms. So you could be live on Instagram, at the same time be

30:47live on YouTube, at the same time be live on Facebook, at the same time be live on TikTok, at the same time be live on Twitter, on LinkedIn. You can leverage multiple different platforms all at the same time. Now some of you have followers in these other platforms and some of you don't, right? So it really depends on what situation, what position you're in. But these softwares make it very, very easy to go

31:18live to multiple different sites at once and pull in comments and it gives you a bunch of extra additional bells and whistles, which makes it really, really cool. One of the other benefits of the software, and I'm going to include links to all this in the show notes, so don't worry. You can just check it out and see what you think. But one of the other really, really benefits is that when you upgrade to the software level, okay, it makes it very easy to get your video down after the fact. Like, the broadcast finishes, the software automatically saves the entire

31:49thing to your cloud library. They all have a different term for it, but it's basically like, you finish the broadcast, it's now saved in the software, you can go in and you can download just the audio, you can go in and download the video, you can edit the video, chop up the video, put it in another application, do all of that, and that's awesome. But here's where it gets really good. Both of these platforms, StreamYard and Restream, will allow you to then take what you recorded, okay,

32:19and then rebroadcast it later. So you can do one live broadcast, and you could end up showing that thing 50 different times if you were so inclined, or 5 to 10 times if you were so inclined, or if you're me, you could get an archive of 30 different videos saved in there, and just rotate through them throughout the week as you see fit, okay? So I talk about the

32:49lazy marketer's dream motion and this is it, you guys. It's tremendous. I mean, I have a folder saved up with live broadcasts for the last year and I'm constantly rotating through them because no one saw them, right? No one saw them. I went through all the time, energy, and effort to do that live broadcast, and I'm going to let that thing just go through that one time and I'm done? No! Some of them I've played like 25

33:20times and you know what? No one ever calls me on it because most people with Instagram it's like I'm going to pop in, I'm going to watch a few minutes of it, grab something, but then I've got to go because I was busy, right? You think about all the scenarios in which you check social media during your own personal life. Sometimes you're busy, sometimes you have a little bit of time, sometimes you're devoted, sometimes you're dodging out on the couch at night, sometimes you're in the doctor's office, you're waiting for them to call you, right? Or you're in line at the supermarket or waiting for your dog to get out of the vet, whatever the

33:51case may be, those life cases, right? So they might only catch a little bit of it. So now when you go through this whole process that I'm outlining, you have an asset that you can play again and again and again. And it's really, really fun because you broadcast the thing that you've already recorded and then you just watch the comments and you just respond to the comments on your keyboard. Oh, hey, so and so, how's it going? No one ever even calls me out on this. No one even knows that I'm not live, okay? I think I was live like 30

34:21hours last week and only about an hour of that was live or two hours of that was actual real live. The rest of it was just the replays. So in terms of like an asset, no one's doing this because it's really, really difficult. Everyone's terrified. So as a result of that, the sheer volume of arbitrage that is waiting, if you could just crash through the fear points and get there, is tremendous, is tremendous. There is a ladder that goes from just getting the first couple

34:52through, laughing at how terrible they were, laughing at yourself for the fact that no one was even there, do a couple more. Now you're starting to get the hang of it. It's kind of fun. You had a conversation with a person or two. Somebody called you and sent a text. I can't believe that I saw you on Instagram live. That was totally awesome. People are starting to get to know you. Then you upgrade your gear a little bit. Then you move into the software. By the time the end of the year comes around, it's going to be NBC News with Tom Roca.

35:22You're going to be that good and that comfortable. You're going to find it to be such an