Not-So-Strange Things: The Montauk Project

Introduction to Hank's Pizza

0:00No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet, so Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs and help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the $1 slice work. Now Hank's has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at m365copilot.com slash work.

0:30When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

Spooky Science Sisters Introduction

1:00The first 30 seconds of it, it was like, none of this is substantiated with anything. Literally, we have zero evidence other than what these people have told us. I like they also stress in that line of text, like, it's been a long investigation. And it's like, and you recovered nothing at the end of it? Doesn't that seem like maybe this is not true? I'm Paige. And I'm Megan. And this is Spooky Science Sisters.

1:31Hello, you're listening to Spooky Science Sisters, a podcast where we present to you a science-based and probably very giggly discussion on all things strange and unusual.

Montauk Project Overview

1:42Today, we are going to be talking about one of the most famous spooky government conspiracies in the United States, the Montauk Project, in which people believe that secret paranormal experiments were carried out at the Camp Hero military installation in Montauk, New York. But before we get to that, we have to do something spooky. So, Paige, has anything spooky happened to you recently? My something spooky is your something spooky. So I'll just let you go for it.

2:14Yeah, so my something spooky is that Paige and I are locked in some sort of reciprocal health problem situation right now. So a few weeks ago, my back was really killing me for like no reason that I could figure out at all. And then I think within a week of that, Paige's back started mysteriously hurting for no reason at all. And I was sick a couple of weeks ago. You probably noticed in our last episode that my voice did not sound great because I had a cold.

2:46And now Paige is sick for this episode. And this is like after I joked because of the back thing, I was like, oh, we're going to try and record this episode or whatever. It's going to be your turn to get sick. And yeah, I think I cursed us. Yeah, it's your fault. So if one of us like breaks an arm or something and then the other one does next, then we'll know.

3:09Well, you just said it, so it'll happen. Yeah, damn it.

3:14But yeah, if I'm like mostly quiet in this episode, it's because I feel like trash. So I'm here, but I'm mostly just here to listen.

3:26I'm just here to support. I'm here for moral support. Okay.

Stranger Things Connection

3:31So we decided to do this episode because we found out that the original title for Stranger Things when the Duffer brothers were pitching the script was Montauk. And there's actually a little Easter egg for that in the final episode, which is like a very minor spoiler. So don't freak out, you guys. But there are like Easter eggs that sort of reference different things about the Montauk project throughout Stranger Things. And once you learn about the Montauk project and yeah, like you'll see that there's a lot

4:05of familiar, a lot of similarities, not familiarities. If you've watched Stranger Things, which I am still sad that that show is over. But what are you going to do? This is my way of extending it for myself a little bit longer. Let's rewatch it again.

What is the Montauk Project

4:20That's true. Yeah. So what is the Montauk project? So this is basically an urban legend about supposed classified activities at the Montauk Air Force Station, which is also known as Camp Hero in Montauk, New York, which is on Long Island. And Camp Hero was originally built in 1942 for World War II coastal defense and did start out kind of sneaky because the residential portion where the barracks were and everything

4:53was designed to look like an innocent fishing village. So like just like an innocent little town that would be in the area because they didn't want people to realize what it actually was, which was a military installation. So then once World War II was over, but the Cold War started, it was used as a radar site to keep an eye out for Soviet bombers. And ultimately, the site, when the radar, you know, became outdated, was decommissioned

5:23on January 31st, 1981, with shutdown activities continuing through 1984, after which the land, because of its environmental value, was donated to the National Park Service, who then transferred it to the New York State Park system. And because it was so large, a lot of the infrastructure was just left abandoned at the site. And this includes the 90-foot radio tower, which had like an additional 40-foot tall radar on

5:54top of it. There are underground batteries and bunkers, as well as some of these like disguised fishing village buildings all just got left behind because it would have been prohibitively expensive to just take them all down. And then since 2002, it has been part of the Camp Hero State Park. So you can go and visit. And I think you can get pretty close to some of the abandoned stuff, but some of it sort of still closed off to the public. Yeah, but basically, if you look at pictures of this place, and we'll put like a link in

6:27the show notes that has some good pictures that you can take a look at. If you look at pictures, though, and you've watched a show like Stranger Things or like the German show, Dark, and like it's a perfect setting for this like creepy conspiracy theory to run amok, basically. So it's not super surprising that like this turned into this big urban legend about Camp Hero. Yeah. And I don't know that I had like seen a ton of the photos before today.

6:57Yeah. But like there are some shots that like feel like they were taken straight from Stranger Things. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, some of them that people put online now are probably like they're purposefully taking ones that sort of look vintage and like they could come from the show. But yeah, they're all sort of like that creepy vibe. So believers in the Montauk Project conspiracy believe that in the 1970s and 80s, I'm not clear that my voice is going to make it through this.

7:28You can do it, Paige. You can do it.

Montauk Project Claims

7:31That in the 1970s and 80s, the site was used for secret government experiments with the purpose of developing psychological warfare techniques and to research some other things like time travel and interdimensional portals because, of course, that's what was happening. Yeah. Yeah. And according to the stories, there were secret tunnels or underground bunkers that sort of connected all of the remaining structures. And those were used for the experiments where time tunnels were also apparently to make contact

8:08with extraterrestrials who, as you probably have guessed, were supposedly working with the CIA and working with scientists on some advanced technologies. What are time tunnels? I don't know. What does that even mean? What is a time tunnel? Just like a portal, I guess. Yeah. No. Yeah. That makes sense. I know. It's just a funny way to say it. But like, what is it? Yeah. My brain read that earlier in the notes and was like, what the heck is a time tunnel? But yeah, now that you say it's like, it's a portal.

8:40Okay, fine. Through time.

8:42And this is, like I said, kind of where they claim the experiments would have happened. They would take the abducted victims for mind control experimentation, which could include, according to some of the published claims, exposing people to significant amounts of electromagnetic radiation, psychological torture, sensory deprivation, and drugs, and using what was called the Montauk chair, which I don't know if you've ever seen or like read anything about the Montauk chair,

9:16but it allegedly used a number of different sensors and electromagnetic coils to enhance psychic abilities and even enhance the ability to like create time portals. Good. So the one thing I really did like, though, and I put in here about the tunnels is that when I was reading about this and reading Brian Dunning's episode for the Skeptoid podcast, because he posts them all as basically blog posts that you can read the transcripts of.

9:50But I like that he debunked this particular feature, the tunnels, of the conspiracy by pointing out that vast underground structures on Long Island were prohibited by its geology. So I was like, yeah, using geology. I saw that note, too, and I was like, I really hope Megan talks about this. Yeah, yeah. So basically the take home there that he says is that most of the rock or the material that's underneath what is Camp Hero is this like loose glacial till.

10:22So basically just stuff that's not going to support some big underground network. Like if you dig it out, it's going to be really likely to crumble and like to get to bedrock. You're going to have to go below sea level, stuff like that. So, yeah, I like the idea of using geology to debunk some of the things and like even something as basic as like you cannot have a vast network of underground secret chambers.

10:46But it would be cool. Yeah. And then there's also this claim that like thousands of children died as a result of these experiments. And I know you didn't make it all the way through the Montauk Chronicles movie, very true life documentary. Yeah. Yeah. At one point, though, they start talking about like, well, how many people do you think died there and somebody says 10,000, somebody says 10,000 as up to 100,000.

11:20And then the one guy, I don't remember who was who at this point, but the one guy said there were 300,000 people involved. And I think he says like only 10% of those survived. Wow. So at least thousands of children, but apparently, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people died, according to the stories. Yeah. And it wasn't just children. Like it was like children are getting abducted. And that was like the main, you know, thing where they emphasize it's the guys in this

11:53documentary, like were supposedly children that were involved in it. But they were also supposedly taking like homeless people and stuff like that to experiment on. But I do like your point, Megan, which is that the population of Montauk, New York in 1980 was about 2,800 people with about 14,000 in the broader area, if you include East Hampton. And first of all, there's no seemingly no official documentation of that many kids dying. But also like that's like if we go by the numbers from the show or the movie I watched

12:26today, that's like everybody. They're all dead. Right. I was like, that would be a very significant proportion of the children who lived in that area at the time, if not like all the kids in the area at that time. And that was like, you know, the few minutes that I made it into the 2014 documentary, The Montauk Chronicles, before I was like, no, this is not for me. Talked about this. Like they one guy says briefly, yeah, that it was like thousands of children had died as

12:56a result of this. And like he's talking about, and I think the other survivors in that or supposed survivors in that documentary like are saying that they were local kids in the area. Right. Except so one of them claims to have been a victim. And then one of them, I think, like claimed to be one of the researchers who like worked there. Oh, okay. Okay. But either way, like I think the one victim or whatever that I saw talking there or somebody talking was saying like they were going on like field trips or something to Camp Hero

13:27and that they were getting separated out on these field trips or something. And so it's like, it's kids from the local area who they say are getting taken. It's like, yeah, that would be a lot of kids. That'd be like all the kids. Yeah. And like, look, I know that in Stranger Things and they show that the 80s were much more lax about parents knowing where their kids were at any given time. But yeah, I can guarantee that it was not like thousands of kids were disappearing without anybody saying anything. Yeah. In Long Island, New York, at least.

13:59Okay. So, yeah. So that's sort of what's going on with the Montauk Project. We've got these crazy secret government conspiracy experiments that are happening and thousands of people are disappearing and being affected by this. And it's this whole huge operation that they've covered up and covered up all the evidence of it and everything. So where did this all come from? As these things often go, much to my dismay every time, it all goes back to one dude with

14:29a crazy story who gets a book deal. And in this case, that dude is a man named Preston B. Nichols, who, with the help of Peter Moon, published a book in 1992 called The Montauk Project Experiments in Time. And in that book, Nichols recounts recovering repressed memories of time spent working on the Camp Hero base in the 1970s and 80s. And he supposedly recovers these repressed memories when he happened to run into two guys who were

15:03involved in the Philadelphia experiment, which is like another government time travel conspiracy theory that we have not talked about yet. But like, it's in the works that we will do an episode on that because I think that's a fun one as well. I clearly paid so much attention to The Montauk Chronicles. Mind you, it wasn't really, I was mostly just like reading and taking notes. It was just not a background noise. But one of the guys was Preston Nichols on the movie, on the documentary. Oh, really? Yeah. So Nichols says that for The Montauk Project, he was specifically involved in a project to

15:44use strong electromagnets to induce psychic or psychokinetic powers in children. And I assume that's The Montauk Chair that you were talking about earlier. Probably. Yeah, like it's an associated thing. Yeah. But if this is all sounding very familiar to Stranger Things, like, you know why. Like, this is basically the program that Eleven has supposedly come from. And he goes on to claim that the experiment that he was working on was stopped after one

16:14of the kids accidentally brought over a huge monster from another dimension that some sources say was like 9 to 10 feet tall, and some sources say was like 30 feet tall. So who really knows here? That's quite the range. But that Nichols then says that he personally shot off the power to the transmitters to send the creature back to its own dimension. And this is all stuff that he did not remember until he randomly ran into these other guys at

16:47another job that he was working with. Great. Okay. And my understanding is that the book is more so written in the style of a first-person narrative science fiction novel. And at the beginning of it, Preston and Peter state, this work is being presented as nonfiction as it contains no falsehoods to the best knowledge of the authors. However, it can also be read as pure science fiction if that is more suitable to the reader.

17:19So yeah, it's basically like, this is a great story either way. We say it's true, but you know, who knows? They're just going to hedge their bets, I guess. So people, kind of unsurprisingly, because again, it's sort of this mysterious abandoned military encampment, are very into this story. It did get popular and it probably gained popularity because at the time that the book came out in 1992, this idea of repressed memories being recovered was big and it's big on the heels

17:53of things that other people have claimed to have repressed memories of, like during the satanic panic. You've got Cold War paranoia sort of bleeding into this because, you know, it's not till 1991 that the Soviet Union finally falls. So yeah, so it's like this perfect time for this book to come out and become popular. And other people have since gotten on board, especially people who said that they were involved in the project as children or they were also involved as other employees.

18:25And you have survivors who claim to, like, have been part of the experiment who again claim that they have these repressed memories. And just as a reminder on the whole, like, repressed, recovered memories thing, because that's a thing that comes up a lot in alien abduction cases as well. And they've done studies on the susceptibility of people who've been abducted by or who claim to have been abducted by aliens to having, like, false memories. So it goes with this sort of, like, conspiracy mindset thing or paranormal mindset thing that

19:00you might be more likely to have false memories if something happened that didn't. And the techniques involved in recovering repressed memories with those, it's very easy to create false memories. So, like, this whole idea is very controversial in psychology and, like, it wouldn't really stand up in, I think, for most psychologists as being a legit thing for people to have. So the few minutes of the Montauk Chronicles documentary that I watched, I was, like, immediately

19:30tickled and, like, sort of turned off by the fact that initially, like, the first thing that they disclose at the very beginning of the documentary, they've got the scrolling thing of text that goes by, and they say, there are no artifacts, photographs, and no available evidence of their claims. And they're talking about the claims of these people who are being interviewed in this documentary. And it's like, okay, so basically you're telling me right up front, like, you've got nothing. I love that, too. I almost put it in here and then I realized you had.

20:01It was, like, the first 30 seconds of it. It was, like, none of this is substantiated with anything. Literally, we have zero evidence other than what these people have told us. I like they also stress in that line of text, like, it's been a long investigation. And it's like, and you recovered nothing at the end of it? So, doesn't that seem like maybe this is not true?

20:30So, it's not just that documentary. It's, like, the entire Montauk Project. There is no tangible, physical, reliable evidence of any of this actually happening. It's all anecdotal. It all leads back to this book that Preston Nichols wrote. The only possible exception is that there was a History Channel documentary called The Dark Files where they used ground-penetrating radar to, like, look for structures beneath the ground at Camp Hero.

21:05And they claimed that they identified evidence of, like, some tunnel network that was not on the blueprints. But they also straight up say, like, weren't able to do anything to confirm it. Like, they didn't try to go into these tunnels. They didn't do any, like, follow-up stuff with it. And it's like, for all we know, you know, the anomalies are just, like, they're misinterpreting the locations of underground structures that we do know exist, like the bunkers or storage vaults. Or there's just, like, big utility conduits that run underneath the whole facility.

21:36And, like, God forbid that the public blueprints for a government base, like, are not 100% accurate that they've released. That doesn't seem super mysterious to me. So that's sort of our only evidence that maybe exists, but it's pretty flimsy. And so you'd think that with such flimsy evidence that this whole Montauk Project conspiracy would not be taken seriously. But there's definitely a group of people online, and sort of, you know, it's fringe, right,

22:08who believe that the Montauk Project was real. And a lot of the adjacent content, and sort of, like, Paige alluded to, when you look at the pictures that people put up of this, and if you watch, like, videos that influencers make about visiting and talking about it, you know, they always stress, like, how eerie the site felt. And they felt like they were being watched. And they post, you know, all these, like, atmospheric photos of, and aesthetic photos of abandoned buildings and, you know, warning signs telling people to keep out of areas and

22:38stuff. So, you know, they're building this, like, mythology around it. And that's fine. Like, it's pretty harmless overall. But, you know, it's definitely just, like, this urban legend that, in all likelihood, like, did not actually happen. I think one point that, I can't remember which article it was that I read, made was, like, if there really were, like, any truth to this, they wouldn't have opened it up as, like, a park for just anyone to go, like, roam around. Oh. You know.

23:09Yeah, that's also a great point. Yeah. It wouldn't have been, like, their immediate move to sell the land or to donate the land to the National Park Service and just be like, have at it, let the public in here, this is fine.

23:24Yeah, that's a great point. Like, that alone. Okay. So, one interesting possibility that I saw raised in terms of, like, anything actually weird going on associated with Camp Hero is the possibility that the radar equipment could have messed with people because, like, there could have been some strong electromagnetic fields that it was emitting. So, some people have suggested that when the dish was rotated, which would happen every 12 seconds, I guess, people's electronic equipment in the area would malfunction, animals would

23:59sort of freak out, and people got headaches. There was a resident who was interviewed by the New York Post who said that despite not believing in all the conspiracy theory stuff, they did think that the radar, like, had some sort of physical effect on people living in the area, like, they were suspicious that it did something. Like, I watched a little bit of a show about, like, abandoned places, and the guy mentions that football games, like, high school football games, the scoreboard would sort of, like, malfunction. And they associated that with, like, something going on with the radar at the time.

24:32Like, it would screw up the scoreboard at the football games. So, what I did was I asked a friend, who's a friend to both Paige and I, who worked as a radar technician in the Army, and he said that in order to have any sort of physical effect from radars, and, like, even, like, the really high-frequency ones, you'd have to be really close, like, from even a big, powerful one. He did say that, like, the largest ones that he worked on could, like, cook a hot dog from

25:06a few feet away, which I think is sort of a hilarious detail, but also sort of terrifying. But that if you were more than, like, 100 feet away, you wouldn't be able to sense if they were on or not, like, there wouldn't be any sort of physical effects. He did say, though, or did confirm, that electronics that were on the same frequency could be affected and that that effect could happen even from a few kilometers away, and that with an older

25:36radar like the one at Camp Hero, where I think the frequency is a little bit larger, like, it's in, I don't know. Listen, I don't know anything about radars. But at the frequency that that would have been operating, like, it could interfere with, like, TVs, like, it could cause static, it could interfere with radio equipment. So, like, it could very well be that people had weird things going on with their electronics when the radar was powered up. And, you know, that does sort of lead to people, like, I understand why people would be a little

26:08bit like, what's this doing to us at the same time? Like, they don't have a great understanding of radar technology and, like, how electromagnetic fields can affect the body. So, yeah, a tiny amount of real weirdness, but not to the extent that Preston Nichols claims. And I don't think you mentioned this, but outside of, like, Preston Nichols, like, outside of, like, the three guys, basically, that were in the documentary, has there been, like, anyone else that's come out and said, like, I was a part of this? Or has it just been, like, three people?

26:40So, I looked it up. I don't see anything immediate that suggests, like, how many people have come out to say that they were involved. And I didn't see anything about, like, pretty much every source that I read focused on, like, Preston Nichols being the guy that this all originated with and, like, didn't really talk about anyone else. So, for all we know, like, it could be him and these two other dudes in this documentary and that's it. Okay. Just wondering. Mm-hmm. All right. So, then, like Megan said, I think it's, like, pretty, for the most part, most people

MKUltra Project Discussion

27:10believe that this is just, like, an urban legend. Like, people around here, for the most part, believing that the Montauk Project was real. But that isn't to say that there weren't actual secret government projects at some point. And so, one that we're going to talk about is the MKUltra Project, which I feel like I learned about pretty early on in school. I think, like, if you've ever taken, like, a psychology class, you've probably learned about it at some point. Did you learn about it in school, Megan? I took a psychology class and I don't have any memories of this.

27:46What I do remember, like, wasn't, um, who's the Unabomber? Ted Kaczynski. Yeah. Wasn't he, like, supposedly part of this or is that just, like, a rumor? Oh, maybe. Because there was, like, weird stuff in that one show where they showed him, like, undergoing some sort of weird, yeah, you'd be right, experiment thing. I think you are right that, like, that was a part of his childhood. Yeah, so it says that he was a participant, and they show it in, I forget what that show is called, but the sort of, the drama that they did about him, which is called Unabom,

28:19right? I forgot about that. I loved that show. Yeah. But, like, yeah, he was, he was part of these, like, psychological experiments at Harvard, and I think some people have linked those to the MKUltra program. So, anyway, point being, like, you know, this is a real thing that, like, potentially screwed up a lot of people's lives in very big ways. And my point is that I don't think I'd heard of it until I heard of it in the context of Ted Kaczynski. Oh, great. Gotcha. Yeah. So, yeah, I learned about this and then the Tuskegee syphilis study.

28:52Oh, yeah. I learned about both of those pretty early on in some psychology courses, just talking about, like, ethics and what you should and shouldn't do. Yeah, yeah. And so, both of those actually are good examples here. But, anyways, we'll talk about MKUltra. It was an illegal CIA project that was launched in 1953 by Alan Dulles in response, really, to the fear surrounding brain warfare, which was allegedly being used by the Soviets, the

29:23Chinese, and North Korea. And the project's mind control experiments were centered around behavioral modification using hypnosis, drugs. LSD was of particular interest at that time because of the Soviets' LSD program, electroshock therapy, among other things. And probably the biggest issue that we, you know, learn about now in psychology classes is that they did not get their test subjects in, like, an ethical way.

29:57Some did volunteer freely to be a part of the studies. Others were, are volunteered under coercion. But some didn't even know that they were a part of the experiments. These programs were carried out in a number of hospitals, a number of schools, including schools like Princeton. I think you're right about it being some at Harvard. But it also included schools for mentally impaired boys, prisoners, and other vulnerable members of society.

30:27And, yeah, so, like, ultimately, the project was, like, completely unethical, and it ended up, like, totally spiraling out of control. It's something we would probably do a full episode on. Yeah, but long story short, started in 1953, and in 1963, John Vance, who was a member of the CIA Inspector General's staff, insisted that the research follow the new research and ethics guidelines and basically shut down any research under the MKUltra umbrella that was

31:00being done with non-consenting subjects. And in 1977, there started a bunch of congressional hearings, and while they learned, like, a lot of fucked up shit while they were doing that, there were a lot of gaps and details of what they learned because when people started realizing that they were going to start investigating this, the decision was made to destroy a bunch of the records, and that was in 1973. So, like, they destroy a bunch of the records. So, when they're doing these hearings, they can't, like, go back and pull a lot of the

31:31paper trail. And so, for me, long story short, like, the experiments like the Montauk Project have existed or projects like that have existed. But even with the attempt to destroy the paper trail, there were still, like, tons of people who came forward, and there was still some documentation, like, it wasn't all lost. And there were, like, so many people there to tell their stories that if MKUltra, which was a super secret project when it was happening, like, if we have all that information about it now, then I think the likelihood is that a project like Project Montauk would be the

32:05same. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's always the thing with these things, right? With the big UFO claims that everything's being hidden, there's all these secrets being hidden from us. It's like, it's always just, even on smaller niche projects like, you know, MKUltra and, like, this supposed, like, Montauk Project, it's just too many people. It's too many people that had to have been involved to keep it secret forever and, like, to not have any sort of records that exist or any kind of real evidence that exists of it. Well, and at some point, it's like, what benefit is it for the victims to keep quiet?

32:39Like, I... Right. You know, like, I do know there's, like, the fear of, like, the government retaliating or whatever. Sure. But, yeah, and, like, as far as we can tell, yeah, it's, like, just these few guys who have publicly associated their names with this as being involved and nobody else has, so... Right. Yeah. But I guess if you believe Nichols, like, his memories were somehow wiped of it or whatever, so maybe no one remembers. You don't know. But there's also mysteriously no paperwork and also they just let people roam around in the area. It's fine. Well, but also, like, here's a perfectly good example of a time where, like, they did

33:16do a bad thing and, yeah, an improper investigation still took place. Exactly. You know? Yeah. Like, I do know. I don't know.

33:25Listen, it's very... I know we don't... We don't want to trust our government these days, but, yeah, sometimes I guess they ultimately do the right thing. All right. Well, I think that wraps up our 101st episode. If you liked this episode, hit subscribe and share with a friend. Check the show notes for links to all of our social media accounts, our Discord server, and Patreon. If you have any questions about previous topics or ideas for future episodes, email us at thesisters at spookysciencesisters.com.

33:57As always, thank you for listening and stay spooky. Spooky Science Sisters is a proud member of the Evergreen Podcasts Network. For more information or to check out other shows, please visit evergreenpodcasts.com.