Charli XCX - Camera

Acting and the origins of Camera

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe.

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1:21And in my attempt to not look like melted cheese in the heat, I've turned to Quince for their beautiful linen clothes. And I got their 100% European linen utility shirt, which is a button-down that's lightweight and breathable and looks very classy. It kind of has an old-world style to it, which I love because my people, Indian people, we know about beating the heat. We also know about savings. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That's because they work directly with ethical factories. So you're paying for high-quality, not brand markup.

1:54Upgrade your every day. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers. Or go to quince.com slash song exploder. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's quince.com slash song exploder. This episode contains explicit language. Charlie XCX is a Grammy-winning artist who's been making music since she was a teenager.

2:25In July 2026, she released her eighth album, Music, Fashion, Film. It debuted at number one on the UK charts. Her fourth album in a row to hit number one there. In addition to her music career, for the last few years, she's been acting in films. And for this episode, we talked about how those experiences inspired her song, Camera, and how she and producer Finn Keen figured out how to translate that into music. All I know is how it makes me feel, and it makes me feel, how it makes me feel,

2:56yeah, it makes me feel, how it makes me feel, yeah, it makes me feel, how it makes me feel, when the camera's on. Could you introduce yourself? Yeah. My name is Charlie XCX. Prior to this song, I was kind of going through this thing of, I don't really want to make music for a while. Not in a dramatic way, but, you know, I'd been making a lot of stuff.

3:28I made Brat, then I made this whole kind of remix album, and I was playing a lot of shows, I was DJing a lot, I was, you know, doing all the stuff. And I think I wanted to not make music again for a while, because I wasn't sure that I had anything to say. And actually, I really wanted to explore film, which has been sort of a long-term passion of mine, and over the past three, four years, I've actually been able to really act on that

3:59passion. I made a film called Erupsia in 2024, and prior to that, I'd been on set with Greg Araki for like one day, and a couple of other films for one day. And I had spent earlier in the year making a film. The film was called The Moment, and we shot it in five weeks, you know, really condensed, really quick. But in that five weeks, we really kind of bonded as a cast and crew, and it felt really creatively

4:34stimulating and rich. That lack of control that sometimes you get when you walk on set as an actor on somebody else's film is actually, for me at least, quite freeing. You know, like to go on, perform, like you fuck up, you don't do a good take, but whatever, it makes you feel alive. There's something very, very vulnerable about that. I've spent my life, you know, since I was 14, really making music and being very much

5:07in control of my own destiny in terms of every single, like, output about me and my artist project. And the beginnings of this song was kind of me mourning that feeling and thinking about that feeling of being surrounded by these incredible people whilst shooting a film. And honestly, the feeling that I got from being on camera in that kind of a way, in an acting

5:41capacity, rather than being on camera as a musician in a music video, for instance. So I was kind of like, I really want a creative pause from music. And then out of nowhere, inspiration struck, because thinking about those feelings was kind of the initial seed of inspiration for this song.

Rejecting rules in pop production

6:11It started in the summer of 2025. My friend Finn Keen is a long-term collaborator of mine now, but particularly on this new album, you know, I made it sort of exclusively with him and A.G. Cook. You've worked with a lot of different producers. What is it that makes you want to keep going back to the two of them specifically? You know, the reason I go back to them is because there's no rules. I think my biggest gripe with the pop music landscape and the songwriting landscape, which

6:52I will say has kind of like become a little more scarce, like this mentality that I'm about to discuss. But I definitely remember in like 2015 in LA, it was very much this sort of like old school kind of traditional mentality when it came to writing particularly pop songs. A lot of kind of rules of like, oh, well, to make the song technically good, you have to hit the highest note in the chorus.

7:23You can't repeat any of the notes in the verse, in the chorus. All this bullshit. Like, you know, I don't know, like who came up with these fucking rules? This is some bullshit. Like, I don't know. So we've never really been interested in that. And don't get me wrong, like, I really appreciate a well-written pop song. I really appreciate a more traditional sounding pop song in terms of like melodic structure. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm into it. But this idea of, oh, no, that's wrong is something that I would come up against actually

7:54quite a lot, especially when I was in LA in that time hopping around and like kind of exploring different producers. People would be like, oh, well, that's not right. That's not good. Like, that melody isn't good. I'd be like, well, why do you know that? Why do you get to say that and I don't and I'm the artist? Like, I'm never working with you again. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's just, to me, a good melody is all about conviction. That's it. It doesn't matter if that melody is on the same note. If it's performed in a truly honest way, that's it.

8:33I just have to believe you. To me, that's what makes a good song. If I believe you inside and out. Not if it's following some like ABA formula or whatever. You know, it's like there are a hundred songs that can be written like that. But if there's no conviction behind it, then it doesn't matter. And so Finn and AG, we all kind of believe it just has to feel honest and real. And I think that's why I go back to them, you know, because it's freeing.

9:05Because there are no boundaries or rules within the songwriting. We're able to sort of explore all of these different territories without feeling like we're doing anything wrong. When Finn and I made the Wuthering Heights album together, we were working with strings a lot for the first time. We'd been very inspired by John Cale. John Cale from The Velvet Underground. Yeah, we were really thinking about his quote. There was always a standard that was kind of set for how to be elegant and how to be brutal.

9:36Elegant and brutal, which is the two words that he used to describe the criterion for whenever he was making a Velvets record. We were kind of exploring that with Wuthering Heights, you know, whenever we were recording strings, we were thinking the strings have to be elegant and brutal. So there weren't these kind of like conventional, smooth, like gorgeous, luscious strings. They were a little scratchy, a little aggressive. And I think that record and working with strings in that way sort of went on to inspire me to

10:11be like, OK, so like I wanted to use a lot more guitars on this record. Maybe we should explore our version of guitars because I'd never really done that before. Like my previous records don't feature a lot of guitar. And so that was kind of a jump off point.

Building the raw guitar rhythm

10:27Finn played some chords, strumming them normally on the guitar.

10:36With, you know, very sort of simple like kick snare rhythm. And that's another thing I love about working with Finn. We kind of like just throw a track out real quick because we don't want to like suck time out from working together. Like we don't want to like spend like ages perfecting the sound of a snare drum only to be like, oh, actually, I don't have an idea over this or whatever. I then sang a kind of scratch melody with not many lyrics, just kind of like vague vowel

11:16sound type thing. And we kind of sat with it for a minute and then we were like, OK, this is cool, but there's something a little smooth about the way the guitar is played. I kind of knew we needed to make the production feel a lot more like raw and direct and rough because that would really kind of reflect this very exposing feeling of being on set as an

11:51actor and it being kind of humiliating. And so I kind of wanted the guitar to feel less perfect and a bit more reflective of that feeling that I was trying to capture. And so we decided to cut the chord at like a very awkward point. Which then kind of made the guitar very, very chopped in this sort of intense and kind of like

12:28rough way.

12:33It went from being something quite pretty to something a lot more jarring and distinct. It feels very angular to me and that is also very much the feeling that I have on set. It's like a little uncomfortable or something in a way that I like. That became like a real like identity to the song that then went on to kind of help us figure out

13:23not only other production elements but the kind of lyrical journey of the song.

Avoiding rhyme for honest lyrics

13:40There's this part where I say, am I being fucking stupid if I try and be a girl on the screen when I'm turning? And I was like, I cannot say 33. That would be so lame. If screen rhymed with three, that would be like just the worst decision ever. And luckily I am turning 34. So it made sense for it to be that. But at the time it was 2025. So you were turning 33. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I had the foresight to know that this record would come out that year. Thank God, my gosh.

14:11What is it about rhyming that you felt so strongly against? Well, I think because this song is very much me talking to myself about something quite embarrassing, about wanting to act and wanting to feel free and danger when I do so. And also knowing that some people will always say that I suck or can't do it. And no matter who you are or what you're doing, if you decide,

14:43oh, you know what, I'm a little older and I want to like embark on this new creative journey or not even a creative journey, it's like quite vulnerable to sort of put yourself out there in a world which is so hellbent on scrutinizing absolutely everything and everyone. And so I think because it is that embarrassing inner monologue, it didn't feel right to have rhyme because, at least for me, rhyme requires a bit of premeditation.

15:19And, you know, this song more so than any, we really wanted to keep that stream of consciousness kind of a vibe. So to have rhyme in this song would have maybe made it feel like a thought I was going back to rather than a spontaneous one. Yeah, that's brilliant. You know? Yeah, it's a really great answer.

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Tuned vocals and accidental static

18:48I like to write with a lot of autotune and a lot of my songs have a lot of really heavy autotune on them. But when I did the initial vocal take for this, it was very, very, very tuned. And there is still a tune on this track. No, it's how it makes me feel and it makes me feel how it makes me feel. Yeah, it makes me feel how it makes me feel.

19:18Yeah, it makes me feel how it makes me feel when the camera's on. But actually what we really liked was then doubling the vocal with the completely untuned vocal. It makes me feel and it makes me feel how it makes me feel. Yeah, it makes me feel how it makes me feel. Yeah, it makes me feel how it makes me feel. That contrast, again, it's like that jarring thing.

19:50I think that was important to us, you know. So for it to not feel super smooth, because there's definitely a version of this song that could have felt very kind of like smooth and sort of perfect, but that doesn't really match the feeling of what I'm singing about. So that's why we decided to not go that route. I always feel like the mistakes are the best and most human moments, actually. And there is one of those in this song, actually, right at the end of the chorus.

20:23When I say, when the camera's on, there's this accidental, like dodgy guitar lead static.

20:35It was just going to be a break. And we were like, oh, wait, that's actually really good and weird and punctuates it in a way that's like way more interesting than like a traditional beat cut. That was sort of like one of those mistakes that we loved. And then in the sort of outro of the song, everything becomes super minimal.

21:07And there's that bass that is plugged in and played direct with no effects pedal or anything like that, you know, to give it this sort of like very honest presence. And when I said fucking shoot me, I don't know where my head was at. I really was talking about like a gun. I wasn't thinking about the double entendre of like the camera.

21:39And then it was actually only like afterwards I was like, oh, wait, that's cool. But I didn't mean that. I was not being smart like that in the moment. I was really talking about like kill me, you know. But then after a while, I was like, oh, it means both. Thank God people aren't going to think I'm being suicidal. Thank God people.

22:32Like if a woman decides to have a second child, biologically, we're kind of like trained to put the pain and stress and trauma and angst out of our mind. The literal physicality of birth or pregnancy or things like that. It's like actually we sort of forget about that when it comes to having another baby or something. And not that making an album is the same as giving birth. But maybe that's why I sort of keep forgetting that I've actually kind of like felt this a lot.

23:06Maybe it's just like my inner like fucking trauma system is just being like, no, forget about that because you're about to do it again. I don't know.

The underlying sadness of escape

23:14But yeah. In terms of the song, I actually think this is a really sad, sad song. Why is that? Well, I think it's about running away from myself and my identity and wanting to escape into another identity where people can't find me. It's sort of this endless quest to feel something.

23:49The more and more I live life, the harder it is to feel something from creative pursuits that happen over and over again. Music, for instance, you know. And so I think wanting to pivot is about that. It's about this desire to feel on a level that hasn't been felt before. And so, yeah, I think there is something sad about this song for me now, which doesn't make me like it less.

24:19Like, I love the song and I stand by all of the feelings within it. But there is something a little heartbreaking for me about it because it's like, will I ever be able to be still and just like be happy with who I am? I don't know. Jury's out. You know? And now, here's Camera by Charli XCX in its entirety. It makes me wanna throw my life away

25:06All the music, all the people Not a single kiss goodbye Your French exit Chase the stars Yeah, the ones in your eyes But let's be honest I'm talking about the ones on the pavement Cause that look, it's a bullet It makes me question what I'm doing Do I wanna make music? Am I being fucking stupid if I try to be a girl on the screen When I'm turning 34 But all I know is how it makes me feel

25:38And it makes me feel How it makes me feel Yeah, it makes me feel How it makes me feel Yeah, it makes me feel How it makes me feel When the camera's on Yeah, it makes me feel It makes me wanna throw my life away Cause I feel different on the mark Something new and undiscovered And something kind of violent

26:09Daring to fail and being ugly I'm inspired and alive Cause all I know is how it makes me feel And it makes me feel How it makes me feel Yeah, it makes me feel

26:28How it makes me feel When the camera's on Yeah, it makes me feel How it makes me feel, yeah it makes me feel How it makes me feel, yeah it makes me feel How it makes me feel When the camera's on I can be anything I wanna be And I can feel the things I don't normally feel Yeah, I can finally be totally honest

26:59It's like I'm looking down the barrel of a gun I don't feel embarrassed even if I suck I'm always craving an experience that feels dangerous And maybe this is it, maybe it's what I need Cause it's the only way to feel like I'm not actually me To learn more, visit songexploder.net You'll find links to buy or stream camera And you can watch the music video This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Kathleen Smith

27:32Mary Dolan and Tiger Bisco The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma And I made the show's theme music and logo Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX A network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm If you'd like to hear more from me, you can subscribe to my newsletter Which you can find on the Song Exploder website You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt I'm Rishikesh Hirwe

28:03Thanks for listening Radiotopia From PRX I want to tell you about another Radiotopia show called Hyperfixed It's hosted by Alex Goldman, who you might know from Reply All Or, if you're old school like me, his podcast before Reply All, TLDR On Hyperfixed, listeners write in with questions All kinds of bizarre questions, no matter how niche

28:34And Alex investigates and answers the questions If you did listen to Reply All back in the day And you remember the segment they used to do called Super Tech Support Then you're going to love Hyperfixed And Hyperfixed is currently gearing up for its first live show in September in Brooklyn You can get tickets at tickets.hyperfixedpod.com Look for Hyperfixed wherever you listen to podcasts Or at radiotopia.fm