Allison Russell - The Returner

Introduction to the episode

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe.

0:11I'm going to be on tour playing some shows this fall. I'm going to be in London on Wednesday, November 18th. I'm going to be performing solo at Rough Trade Records on Denmark Street, and I'm going to be in conversation about my music, moderated by one of my favorite actors and writers, Matthew Bainton. And a ticket to the show also gets you a copy of my album on vinyl or CD. And in December, I'm going to be on tour supporting S. Carey. We're going to be playing a bunch of shows in the Northeast U.S. So I hope to see you in one of those places. You can find all the details and get links to tickets at songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live.

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Joni Mitchell and the song title

2:24Allyson Russell is a singer and songwriter originally from Montreal and now based in Nashville. She's a Grammy winner and an eight-time Grammy nominee, and she's also won Canada's Juno Award, an Americana Award, and more. She starred in Hadestown on Broadway. She spent years in bands and collaborating with others before she released her first solo album in 2021. Her most recent album came out in 2026 and is called In the Hour of Chaos.

2:56But for this episode, Allison and I talked about the title track from her second album, The Returner, which came out in 2023. She recorded it with an all-female ensemble that included Wendy and Lisa of The Revolution. It was co-written with J.T. Nero, her husband, and Drew Lindsay, her brother-in-law, and the two of them also co-produced the song with Allison. I'm a summer dream, I'm a real light dream, I'm worthy Of all the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me

3:29I'ma give it back ten times before I'm ready If you think you're alone, hold on, I'm coming My name is Allison Russell I was on the road behind my first record under my own name, which was called Outside Child.

3:59And that record opened the doors of the music industry in an unprecedented way for me. A lot of that was to do with the other women artists who championed that record, people like Brandi Carlyle. And I was actually on tour with Brandi Carlyle when I started writing The Returner. The seed was planted actually at Newport in 2022. Brandi Carlyle orchestrated the greatest surprise ever, which was the return of Joni Mitchell to the stage.

4:32For the first time since she had her aneurysm several years before. I was invited to be part of that circle of artists that support Joni and back her up in her band. We become her band. And I remember the electric response of the audience to realizing there she was, you know, decades after her debut there. And when people thought she'd never sing again or speak again after her aneurysm. And I wrote a poem about that experience later.

5:04And in the poem I called Joni Our Lady Returner. Do you by chance still have that poem? I do. Would you mind reading it? Here, let me find it. I've seen shadows of clouds on the mountains, shadows of clouds on the pines. I've seen shadows of ships' prows parting the waters. I've heard the foghorns low sigh. I've seen Joni, our lady returner, sing both sides and laugh and stop time. There's no greater magic than music.

5:36There's no braver person alive. I am changed. I am charged. I am spinning. I'm touching the hem of her mind. Her garments are grit, grace, and glory. Our Lady of Saskatoon skies. She carries the prairies within her, from the canyon to Newport, Rhode Island. Our Lady of redemption. Our once and future queen. Our Lady of death, thrice defeated. Our prophet. Our holy wine. Hate shall have no dominion. Fear and despair overcome.

6:06When something's lost, something's won. Love, hope, and truth abide. When Joni sings, we cry. So that little kernel of this idea of being not just someone who survives, but who survives joyfully, who defies all expectations of what's possible, that notion was planted in my mind that day. And it was almost like a mythic superhero in my mind, the returner superhero, you know?

6:37And that led to different poetic and melodic exploration somehow. Like, it wouldn't let go, that idea of the returner. Outside Child, the album that I was touring behind at that time, was, you know, very autobiographical, very personal, rooted in my childhood. And I had a very, very young mother, did not know my biological father, was in foster care that was abusive for several years. And my mother, whilst I was in the abusive foster care, married a man who was old enough to be her father, old enough to be my grandfather, who was violently abusive in every possible way, adoptive father to me.

7:19And so Outside Child, for me, was summoning the ghosts and the demons of my past and, like, facing them and reckoning with them. But for the returner, I was wanting to embody music that felt like forward motion, that felt like a joyful fight song in a way, if you will. Something like to feel embodied and empowered. And that's when I started, myself and Dimstar, my co-writers and co-producers, started writing the demos for what would become the returner song and album.

Writing the groove and lyrics

7:54One, two, three, eight.

7:59Dimstar is JT Nero and Drew Lindsey, and they are brothers. We're coming into our 20th year of knowing each other and being creative conspirators, you know. We've co-written many, many songs. So we had a whole band together, JT and I, called Birds of Chicago. And Drew came in and out of that band, too. And so we've always had this deep, deep artistic connection before we became, like, family through marriage. You know, I ended up marrying JT. And we've been married for 13 years, and we're coming up on 20 years of friendship.

8:33Drew was in Milwaukee, and JT was home holding down the fort with our daughter while I was on the road. But we were writing that whole time, sending demos and voice memos back and forth. Drew would send me these tracks and these groove ideas he had.

8:53Drew, as our beat maker, he wanted us to be able to listen to the instrumentals and still locate the theme of the album. A celebratory soundtrack for getting tired of hating ourselves and deciding we're worthy. He wanted for us, instrumentally, to be able to feel that even before the melody or the lyric was there.

9:17I just remember thinking, oh, this has got such a groove. I love this. And I knew it was The Returner. JT and I have a wild thing where often one of us will, like, be writing the chorus to the song and the other one, meanwhile, the verses have come through and we'll realize, oh, wait, these belong together. So that happened with this song where very shortly after, JT sent me a voice memo of him singing the chorus.

9:49Goodbye, so long, farewell all I've been Ooh, oblivion Throw me in the ocean Ooh, I never learned to swim I'm wild again I'm a star child again And I come ten million miles Ooh, I'm burning I'm a summer dream

10:21I'm a real light beam I'm worthy Of all the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me I'ma give it back ten times People, are you ready?

10:39And if you think you're alone Hold on I'm coming When JT was writing those lyrics, was he trying to write in your voice? Like, was he trying to inhabit your voice? Yes, he was inhabiting me, for sure. He hears my voice in his head. It's like he's singing in my voice, you know. And it was him giving me, like, a triumphant fight song for myself that I could, words I couldn't write for myself I'm a summer dream

11:10I'm a real light beam I'm worthy of all the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me Do you know what I mean? Because I don't see myself as triumphantly as he sees me But then it gives you that gift to, like, be that I'm gonna be that brave I'm gonna be that strong, you know And there's always some pressure with a second album of, you know, different people have different ideas Like, oh, work with a name producer Work with this, work with that And I was like, no, I want to work with my family I wrote several verses

11:54Now I let go everything that I've known Let it go on, let it roll out with the tide In the same way that the track rhythmically needed to feel like we're moving forward We're not looking back, we're going forward I wanted the lyric to do that, too I can't think of a thing That hasn't been shot through with pain Like a night in gas Sung in the dead of the night When I wrote the one that

12:25There's a demo with a verse that did not get used for obvious reasons when you hear it Now I bestow Everything that I've sown Let it blossom Let it bloom now When it's time I can't think of a thing That hasn't been saved by the rain Like a forest in flames At the break of a violent night It makes me laugh

12:55It makes me laugh because it's just so unsingable, ultimately Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just unsingable I was like, oh, this was a good idea on the page And then I, like, sang it I'm like, hmm You know, like, I'm sure it was pretty quickly Like, this is not it This is not it Now I bestow Everything that I've sown Let it blossom Let it bloom now And it's time I can't think of a thing That hasn't been saved by the rain Like a forest in flames At the end of a violent night It's like, what is she on about?

13:27And so what, for you, made that not right? Because it's beautiful imagery It's too many words It's too many It's too many And it's also They don't feel good to sing It sounds unwieldy It sounds like I'm trying too hard And when I hear it back It makes me laugh I had forgot I had wiped it from my memory That I ever wrote them Until Drew Drew was, like, laughing When he sent me the demo He was like, listen to this Is it okay if I send this to Rishi? I was like, okay Yes, you can, you can

13:58It's all part of the process More with Alison Russell After this Thanks so much to Lisa For sponsoring this episode I chronically have had A hard time sleeping well But getting a Lisa mattress Has been a huge upgrade For my sleep routine I picked out a mattress By taking the online Lisa sleep quiz On their website To figure out Which one would be best For the way that I sleep And my preferences on feel

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Recording with an all-female ensemble

15:44The bulk of the songwriting Happened I would say over a span Of about three months And we knew we wanted To co-produce And co-write The whole album So we had The arrangements And I knew who I wanted To cast the room with In terms of The other musicians Who'd be recording with you? Yeah, exactly I wanted to really amplify This community of women That I've been Meeting and growing Through the years On the road

16:15You know There's such an imbalance In terms of like Gender parody Right? At music festivals Or anywhere So I was like If I'm not gonna hire People who look like me And who will? You know So it was That was a joyful thing And then Joe Henry Sent some of our early demos To Wendy and Lisa Because they're heroes To all of us And we really wanted To have them On this record So they said Yep, we'll do it But they said They could only do it If we came to them Originally we were gonna

16:45Do it in Nashville But they've had Their own studio At Chaplin Here in LA And we recorded Pretty much all live Together in the room It was Lisa Coleman on the piano Wendy Melvoin on bass Megan Coleman on drums Megan McCormick on electric guitar Joy Clark on acoustic guitar Elizabeth Pupo Walker on percussion

17:18I played clarinet And sang live Now I unfold Every lie I was told Watch them wither Watch them scatter With the wind I can't think of a thing That hasn't been born

17:48Of a dream Like a love supreme Like a circle unbroken The recording It was done in three takes If you cast the room With the right people You don't need Hundreds of takes So we were doing The Neil Young Crazy Horse method You know Like no more than three takes And Larissa Maestro Who is an utter genius Did the string arrangements On the violins

18:22Shanti Ross And Carenza Peacock And on the cellos Larissa Maestro And Monique Ross And then Shanti, Monique And Larissa Sang the harmonies There's a real difference

18:53I think in the way That you sing it in the demo Versus the way you sing it In the album Oh yeah Like I think in the demo It feels like you're singing The part But in the album I'm beaming And I'm looking at all Of these beautiful women That I adore So yes It couldn't sound like that In the demo Because it's me sitting In our living room Like you know Just singing This is what it is But when it was live With them And all together That's when it came to life Goodbye So long Farewell And all I feel

19:24Ooh oblivion Throw me in the ocean Ooh mama watch me swim I'm wild again I'm a stanchard again I've come ten million miles Ooh I'm running We still have a text thread amongst us Called Volvatron

19:54Because Wendy Melvoin at one point Looked around at all of us And was like I've never been in a room With this many dames Making such good music I'ma give it that ten times People are you ready If you think you're alone Hold on I'm coming You talked about the idea Of how JT saw you as triumphant Yeah After writing and recording this song

20:27And finishing it Do you think that the process of making it Moved the needle at all for you In terms of how you saw yourself? I think it did I think that's the other wild magic I think of words and songs And what they do for us That feeling of deep liberation That the things you thought you knew Are not what you know The things that you believe about yourself The lies that you believe about yourself That have imprisoned you We don't have to continue to carry them We actually can choose And we get to choose to like

20:58Let those go and discover something new And I'm speaking to myself Because I'm someone Like many people Who grew up In abusive circumstances It's very, very easy For me to get trapped In miserable, awful loops Especially of self-hating talk In my own mind, you know But there's such a comfort And a freedom In knowing that we get to change our minds About anything at any time Including ourselves

Listening to the completed track

21:27And now, here's The Returner By Alison Russell In its entirety Now I let go Everything that I've known Let it go out Let it roll out With the tide I can't think of a thing

22:00That hasn't been shot through With pain Like a nightingale Song in the dead of the night Goodbye, so long Farewell, all I'll be Ooh, oblivious Throw me in the ocean Ooh, see if I can swim I'm wild again

22:30I'm a sad child again I come ten million miles Ooh, I'm burning I'm a summer dream I'm a real light dream I'm worthy Of all the goodness and the love That the world's gonna give to me I'ma give it back ten times People, are you ready?

23:02If you think you're alone Hold on, I'm coming Oh, I'm coming

23:36Now I unfold every lie I was told Watch them wither, watch them scatter with the wind I can't think of a thing that hasn't been born of a dream

24:07Like a love supreme, like a circle unbroken Goodbye, so long, farewell All I feel, ooh, oblivion Throw me in the ocean Ooh, mama, watch me swim I'm wild again I'm a star child again

24:38I've come ten million miles Ooh, I'm burning I'm a summer dream, I'm a real light dream I'm worthy About the goodness and the love that the world's gonna give to me I'ma give it back ten times People, are you ready? If you think you're alone, hold on

25:08I'm coming Don't you know, don't you know, don't you know You are never alone Visit songexploder.net to learn more You'll find links to buy or stream The Returner by Alison Russell And you can watch the music video This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and Tiger Biscop

25:39The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma And I made the show's theme music and logo Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX A network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm If you'd like to subscribe to my newsletter You can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt I'm Rishikesh Hiraway

26:09Thanks for listening Radiotopia From PRX