Episode 313 - Cory Wong

Welcome Corey Wong

0:00Hi there, Simon and Brian here, welcoming you to Soda Jerker on Songwriting, episode 313. Joining us today is an uber-talented Grammy-nominated American guitarist, songwriter, composer, producer

0:31and band leader, who first rose to prominence via his work with acclaimed funk collective Wolfpack. In fact, they even named a song in his honour. A prolific recording artist and inexhaustible and quite unmissable live performer, his past collaborators include John Batiste, Victor Wooten, Bruce Hornsby, Lewis Cole, Chromio and Dave Matthews Band. His brand new solo album, Lost in the Wonder, sees him embrace his poppier sensibilities and features contributions from the likes of Wolfpack Bandmate and former Soda Jerker guest Theo Katzman, Lewis Cato, Stephen Day and Taylor Hansen.

1:03It's our tremendous pleasure to welcome the brilliant Corey Wong to the show. Corey was born in Poughkeepsie, upstate New York, but moved with his family to Minneapolis when he was very young. Obsessed with music from an early age, he started out on piano, then played clarinet at school, before his discovery of bands like Green Day, Red Hot Chili Peppers and Primus around the age of 12 inspired him to pick up the bass, then the guitar and later drums, and eventually put his own bands together. He initially studied architecture at college, then switched to science before transferring to the McNally Smith College of Music in St. Paul, where Corey also began to develop his

1:37production skills. He later spent time as a session player in Nashville and LA, and during the same period was making a name for himself on the vibrant Twin Cities R&B, Funk and Soul scene, where he shared stages with legendary figures like bassist Sonny Thompson and drummer Michael Bland, who some of our listeners might be familiar with as former members of Prince's new power generation. And who both appear on the new record, incidentally. That's right. I believe Prince himself was an admirer of Corey's playing too. He certainly was. And told him as much. Yes, he was anointed by the goat. One of Corey's regular hometown gigs was at the Minneapolis venue Bunkers, where one night

2:13in 2013 he was depping with Dr. Mambo's Combo when he was spotted by a visiting Jack Stratton, Theo Katzman and Joe Dart. Wowed by his formidable six-string chops, they promptly invited him into the Wolfpack Fold. He's since made numerous appearances with the band, both live and on record, as well as with offshoot band The Fearless Flyers, which features Corey and Joe Dart alongside drummer Nate Smith and snarky puppy guitarist Mark Lettieri. Corey's solo albums include 2018's The Optimist, 2020's Elevator Music for an Elevated Mood,

2:45and 2024's Starship's Incopation. In 2021 he launched his online variety show, Corey and the Wong Notes, with accompanying album, and since 2020 he's been chatting with the great and the good of the music world for his Wong Notes podcast, produced in association with Premiere Guitar. I'm sure lucky fans with tickets will also no doubt be looking forward to his sold-out solo UK dates at Ronnie Scott's. Oh, absolutely. They're coming up on the 20th and 21st of June, and he's got European dates with Wolfpack in July as well, including London. Make sure you're following Soda Jerker on Songwriting on your pod platform of choice so

3:17you never miss an episode, leave us a review and rating, and check out our archive of more than 300 songwriter interviews. If you'd like to contribute towards the running costs of this indie ad-free show, you can do so at SodaJerker.com slash donate. Just before we move on, our thanks to Tom for his help setting up the chat. Right, time for some Soda Jerker on Wong's writing. See what I did there? I saw. Here we are in conversation with the brilliant Corey Wong. Stay with me. Give me till the morning, I know we can make this right.

3:51Please don't leave. There's no need to scream and shout. Maybe we can work it out. Stay with me. I know what your heart is saying. Promise you that I'm done playing. If it isn't Simon and Brian.

4:20What's happening, cats? How are you? Okay? Oh yeah, I'm doing all right. How about you? Yeah, good. Thank you. Not too bad.

Producing Lost in the Wonder

4:26Good. Well, congrats on the new record, Lost in the Wonder. Thank you. Thank you. I'm feeling really good about it. Feels good to have it out in the world. Oh, I bet. Yeah, it's got your sort of trademark precision and grooves and lovely guitar flourishes and everything, but we definitely felt there's an emphasis on the songs themselves over everything else. Yeah. I mean, this album was fun for me to make because I got to express and explore that side of my artistry. Obviously, people know me as a guitar player because I play the guitar, but I feel like

4:59there's so many other parts of my artistry that I don't really get to explore in the live realm. I mean, I am such a live guy. People come see my live band. It's a great time. But in the studio, I am a producer. I'm an arranger. I'm a writer. All these different things that I love exploring and doing. And I've featured that side of my artistry on other people's albums that have asked me to produce for them and other projects even in my own bands.

5:29But this album, I really wanted it to be like producer guy, you know, like I'm going to kind of explore what the space is of my sound as a producer a little bit more in this realm and the writing. So it was really fun to make. Yeah. It's quite an interesting challenge talking to you about songwriting and creativity because you're already very transparent about how you work. You know, even the new album has those lovely behind the scenes videos where we can literally

6:00see you taking Theo's voice notes on Lisa never wants to be famous and chopping it up. I love sharing the process. I mean, it's a weird time in the world as an artist. It's like, oh, do you keep the mystique or do you share the process? It's like, I don't know. Like the mystique, sure, it's cool for some people, but I'm just like excited about what I do and I love sharing the things that I do. And how cool would it have been as a kid to just really see how my favorite artists did

6:32their thing and, or even just artists that I'm generally interested. Like, I don't know. I kind of like that cat. I'll check out what they're, how they do what they do. That, that seems really fun to me and, and, and important for music and the continuation of people making music.

The Mona Lisa and Lisa Never Wants To Be Famous

6:48Yeah. We were really taken by the concept of Lisa never wanted to be famous and the title too. It came from a conversation that you had with Theo, didn't it? Yeah. So we went to the Louvre after a Wolfpack show in Paris. It was our first time playing in Paris. We did, I think a couple nights at La Seagal and we had a day off or like mostly a day off. We were maybe flying that night or something. And a bunch of us ended up going to the Louvre independently, you know, cause it's something

7:23that you do. It's like, oh, you got to check it out. So everybody kind of split ways. This, most of us ended up being there and just had a really compelling experience. I didn't know what to expect with the Mona Lisa. Like it's, it's a really famous painting. Surely it's going to be great, but I didn't know what, what it was really going to be like. So I went there and just had this really compelling experience, very kind of spiritual experience of all these people from all around the world coming to see this thing.

7:53And Theo had a similar experience, but we were both just like, I can't believe how much that thing brought people together. And he was like, yeah, I mean, she is like one of the most famous women in the world to ever exist. Like, yeah, it's crazy. He's like, yeah, but she never wanted to be famous. I don't think she asked for it. And then, because we were sitting next to each other on the plane that night, just talking about it. And I was like, oh, that's, that's the song right there.

8:23That's, that's it. And Theo does what Theo does and takes the concept and writes this incredible lyrical journey about it. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. I've only been to the Louvre once, but I remember turning that corner into the room where it was and the energy of people surrounding the painting and the furore for people wanting to see it. And it's surprisingly small as well. It's very interesting to see how, like, yeah, that it's on this makeshift wall in the middle

8:54of a room, but it's this thing that brings people together from all around the world. It's a beautiful sight. Yeah. And that song's a great example of, of, you know, how, how the songs on the album really have room to breathe. And it was really revealing seeing how you took the melody and the chords and, and very gradually built in all of the, the rhythmic interest in the song, which really brings it to life. Yeah. I think that song, I, I heard it as two different sort of things and maybe not too different.

9:25Maybe, maybe it is kind of linear, but when I'm thinking of like distinct grooves, like there's a scene change after the first verse or whatever. I like that sort of thing in, in storytelling songs, cause it can kind of help propel the song forward. And that song also, it's, it, I think sometimes the juxtaposition between somber and fun and lighthearted and quirky is cool.

9:56Like sometimes there's certain songs that deal with really deep subject matter, but they're kind of masked by this smile that is fun production. These things that kind of balance each other in a way that it might seem wrong, but it's also just like kind of very human. It's also the way that we go about our day in a lot of ways, you know, or sometimes something's really happy and we kind of downplay it and it's like, oh, it's yeah. Oh yeah. Things are cool. Yeah.

10:26Yeah. Things are good. Like, oh yeah, I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Thanks. Meanwhile, this person had like the best day of their life and they're just trying not to, you know, and we do the opposite. It's like, oh no, no, no. I'm cool. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, wow. Like they just had the most serious breakup of their entire life, but they say, I'm good with a smile. I think sometimes music can reflect that the way that we treat lyrics versus production. Yeah, no, I can see that in that song. There's kind of a combination of that sort of quite serious, romantic, arty kind of thing,

10:58but then you've put all these hooks in the rhythm parts that just make it seem kind of fun and definitely propels it underneath. Nice guitar break on that one as well. Yeah. I mean, I recorded that solo sitting right here. You saw, you guys saw the video. So it's like, uh, I'm making my demo here at my, in my studio, my desk. And sometimes you just get it on the demo. I mean, I, that's the thing. It's, I I've gotten really good at making demos for better or worse and definitely for

11:30better. Who am I kidding? But it's one of those things that sometimes you make a demo and it's hard to beat it. So you try to make that happen sometimes. And sometimes you just need to get your head away from it or just try completely new ideas. But if I nail a solo during the demo, it's like, okay, great. Cause that's the first day. It's very instinctual on the song and kind of, I'm not overthinking it. And, oh, we're in the studio. I got to nail it. Sometimes it's like, I don't know. I'm doing the solo for the demo. So I'm more relaxed. There's like something about it that, that is easier to record or something.

12:02I don't know. Yeah, they picked her up, stole her away forever to be on display. All because she looked just right now. She don't get to sleep at night. Tongue Tied is another one that really thrives as a song, we thought.

Collaborating on Tongue Tied

12:42And, you know, not only does it have that great guitar solo in there, which, which serves the sort of aspirational mood of the song, but conceptually you've got those stutters in there, which work really well with the idea of being Tongue Tied, you know, whether it's the sort of, Hey, hi moments or the kind of fast repetition of that note on the guitar in between it. Everything sort of has a reason for being there, doesn't it? So yeah, that's a fun one. The, the original demo. So that one I made, you know, I was working, writing with some collaborators and just trying

13:16some different things out, trying to figure out what was going to be on the album. Like, Oh, this one's feeling kind of cool. My friend Alex had a, he's like, Oh yeah, here's this little idea. It's like, okay, let me take and run with this. Made a little demo, went into the studio and record it. Like it's like the process sometimes at some point I just stop making stuff or it just gets finished. Like this one, it's like, ah, I wasn't done yet exploring it. I brought it into the studio. Cause we had a big session where we're doing a bunch of songs like, Oh, we can try this

13:46one at it, see if it goes somewhere. And ended up being cool, sent it over to Stephen Day and Stephen Day and I got in the room and it was like, Oh, he was hearing it in a totally new way. It was almost this like. Basically fully produced song other than it just like needed a top line. So they say, you know, like lyrics and melody and just singing something over it. And in its form that it was, it could have been basically done just like, let's come up with the vocals, sing over it and we're good.

14:18But he twisted the whole thing up in a really fun way. It was just like, I'm hearing it like this, hear me out. And brought all these different elements of the story of the song. And then, you know, we talked through some of these production elements just to kind of give it something unique and different. Like, yeah. Like the stuttery guitar part. And that one is just like, I recorded one note and, and then copied that note over. It's not like I couldn't play.

14:48Clearly I can do that, but it has a different sound when it's a note that's recorded and then copied over a bunch of times. So some of those things, like you're saying, that stutter thing is like being tongue tied and this guy being nervous to talk to this girl that he likes at the bar and then not wanting to blow it. Yeah. And then the, the guitar solo, you know, again, with, with pop production, like this song is, is kind of modern poppy, but it's got enough quirky elements to it.

15:21There, there was parts of the form where it's like, oh, this feels a little bit predictable in a good way where it's like, oh, this is where the bridge would be. Like, this is where our ear wants the bridge. If there's going to be a bridge, now's the time, you know? And I deliver on that expectation where it's like, oh, here's the bridge. And sometimes a bridge is a solo, right? But the one thing about it that I wanted to surprise a listener is, okay, I want to give them something expected, but what's, how can I make it a little more interesting? So doing a modulation that's unexpected.

15:55So there's a long history of interesting modulations in the world. And my favorite one is the minor third modulation. So, you know, taking the song, moving it up a minor third, just shifting it over for the solo or the bridge. And then, you know, it's this guitar solo that oddly enough, some people like, oh yeah, it's like Eddie Van Halen style solo. Oh, it's like, oh, actually what I was going for was that solo on Daft Punk on Adventure or there's some synth solo that I was thinking of in my head, which I think they were thinking

16:29of a guitar solo, but they just did it on a synth. I'm kind of reversing that back to the guitar. I was like, oh, that's a cool solo. It's a fun, fun one. But I thought, oh, guitar solo, and then just modulate right back down for the final chorus out. And it has this cool effect. Like you really essentially get two key changes. But I think those sort of like dumb musical things were just like, I don't know, let's just modulate for the guitar solo.

16:59It's like, it's just dumb concept, like on paper, but so fun if it sounds good. Like if it's like, oh yeah, this sounds interesting. This sounds cool. It still keeps the momentum. It doesn't mess anything up. It doesn't feel forced. It feels like it adds to the momentum. It has an extra lift. You know, you hear things like Living on a Prayer, Jessie's Girl. You know, there's some tunes that have interesting modulations that I don't feel like we've used that move or that trick in modern music, in modern pop music, very much.

17:35So fun to kind of do that sort of thing. Oh yeah, we love that moment. It's like a kind of musical high five, isn't it? When it just kind of lifts. It's so good. I just wanna get it right I'm thinking we should let it lie I'm thinking we should let it lie

Writing Stay With Me

18:00So Stephen Day's on Tongue Tied and he's on Stay With Me as well. How did that collaboration work? Do you send each other demos and then find a moment where you get together to do both songs to completion, pretty much? Or is it more piecemeal than that?

18:30Yeah, I sent a few demos over to Stephen. We got in the studio, did Tongue Tied, and it only took a few hours. That's one of those, like, you know, got it sort of thing. And we're on a creative hot streak, right? So we're in there for the day. And I'm somebody who's like, I'm gonna show up to work for the day. I'm here to work on my album, you know? God forbid I do a full work day. But he has the same attitude as me.

19:01So we're just like, that was sick. What's next? And I was like, oh, I have this tune that, you know, one of my favorite bands in the world is Jamiroquai. And they're not making any new music. So this is, well, they are now. But at the time it was like, you know, they're not, they haven't put out an album in a while. So like, why don't I just write some Jamiroquai songs, you know, like my idea of what they are. I need more Jamiroquai catalog. So I'm just gonna make my own version of it.

19:32So I was, I was making a tune and I played it for Steven. He's like, yeah, yeah. I'm hearing something on this one too. So literally in the same day, we did Tongue's Eye and Stay With Me. Oh, wow. I had a track just kind of ready to go, fully recorded the rhythm section. And then Steven and I worked on the top line together and writing the lyrics together. It's like fishing, like going out fishing. I say this analogy when it comes to songwriting. You go out and you want to catch a fish.

20:02Songwriting is a similar thing. And sometimes you get out in the boat and you catch a couple really great fish in a day. Sometimes you catch nothing or sometimes you get a couple small ones. It's like, eh, that's not going to feed the family. Our primitive brains, you know, like, it's like, oh my gosh, we went out in the boat today. We got two big fish. They both ended up on the album. It's that sort of thing. And, you know, sometimes you get in a really good creative flow. And for whatever reason, that day we caught a couple fish and it was fantastic.

20:34Because, I mean, there's plenty of days in the process of this where I worked and worked on a song. And like I said earlier, it's like sometimes I just eventually say, eh, done working. I'm going to stop opening up that file. That one's just not doing it. It's just not good enough. I can't figure out the riddle of that tune.

Working with Benny Sings and Taylor Hansen

20:53So was it a similar situation with the other collaborators on the record? Like Benny Sings and Taylor Hansen? Did you have kind of discrete pockets of time with each person? Yeah. With Benny Sings, I flew out to Amsterdam and I knew I was going to have basically two days there in the studio with him. And what ended up being the title track, Lost in the Wonder, was done in one day also. And again, it's like not always the case where it gets done.

21:23The song with Taylor Hansen was done in one day. But with Benny, we got in the studio. I didn't know what to expect because we hadn't written together. But we had hung out together before. So I went to his studio in Amsterdam. We're just kind of hanging out. Get some coffee. Let's hang. Let's talk about life. You know, basically spent two hours talking about the things that we're just kind of worried about in life, in personal life, in career, who we are as people, you know, just airing whatever's going on.

21:57And it's like you kind of make yourself vulnerable in that, especially with somebody you don't know super well. And then we just start talking about music that we're really into. And he's showing me these songs that had to do with my situation, with his situation. And we're just going through stuff. And then we start talking about ideas and things that we're just thinking about. And then I grabbed a bass and just started jamming. He just started singing. And then it just kind of happened. And it's not like we just went right to work.

22:28I think in some of these writing sessions, you need to have some sort of rapport that sets you up to get into a place to be comfortable and vulnerable with each other in a creative sense. So we spent a couple hours talking. And then all of a sudden, it just morphed into recording and writing this song. It started with me on bass and him singing. And then he's like, oh, go play this keyboard part. I play the keys. Oh, play this drum thing. Play this. And we're kind of going back and forth. We're each playing different things.

22:58And I don't even know what the names of the instruments. I don't even remember the brand of any of the instruments other than I did have my guitar. But I don't remember what bass I used. I don't remember what acoustic guitar I used. I don't remember the piano or the drum kit that I played. It's just like, what's in the room? Play it. Oh, this feels right. Oh, this feels right. Oh, this is cool. And just kind of went for it. Right. And it ended up being awesome. Whew. What a relief. You know, like I came all the way to Amsterdam.

23:30What a relief. This is good. And then the next day we tried to do the exact same thing and just didn't really catch a fish. And with Taylor Hansen, similar thing. I sent him a demo and he loved it. He's like, I'm going to come to Minneapolis. Let's figure this thing out. And he and my friend John Fields, who's an amazing producer as well, we sat down and we just wrote and recorded it in a day. But a couple years ago, Taylor and I got in the studio together, tried to figure out a song, tried to write, and we sat there for five hours and basically have nothing to show for it.

24:10So, yes, this tune that I wrote with Taylor, we got it in one day, but it's been a few years in the making because we've done some jamming together and we did try to write once and it just didn't work. I don't know. Some days you got it. Some days you don't. Some days things connect. Other times nothing seems to string together. So a lot of the stuff that ends up being on the album is the stuff that is more frictionless.

24:40The nuances of collaboration are really interesting, aren't they?

New territories in collaboration

25:01I think I remember you saying that collaboration allows you to draw something out of the other person that they wouldn't do on their own and vice versa. Do you feel like any of those people that you've mentioned pushed you into new territory? Definitely. I think some of them were a little more natural. Maybe with Benny Sings because his process is a little bit different and his sound is different. His approach to doing stuff is a little more different than what I'm used to. So I wouldn't say it was a challenge, but it was fun because he drew out a different process of recording and doing the whole thing with me, as opposed to the other ones where everything was produced in the way that would typically be my process.

25:48Right, I see. You know, like what I normally do, make the demo, go in with the band that I want to have, record that song, record it in the room, do some overdubs in post-production, do some other arranging, and then go for it. But with Benny, that one was, all right, it's us in the room together. And he's like, go play the piano. And I'm like, I'm not a great piano player. I can do midi. He's like, no, no, you just got to do it on this. This is a real piano. You know, it's going to sound, eh, you'll figure it out. Like, yeah, I mean, you're right, I will.

26:20So I guess I better sit down and figure it out. And then it wasn't a lot of overthinking with that one either, where sometimes when I sit down in my room here and I record guitar parts, it's just me. I'm not getting any feedback from anybody else. And I'm very self-critical with stuff. So I'm like, ah, was that any good? Ah, I don't know. Ah, let me start it over. Ah, let me try it again. Ah, does it need more? Or is it, uh, sure. I don't know. Is it, uh, I get in this whole debacle of, does it need one guitar or 70 guitars on this song?

26:53I don't know. You know, we can kind of lose perspective when we're self-critical or when we're analyzing and then overanalyzing. And of course, that's where producer Corey needs to tell guitar Corey to shut up, just do this thing. It's great. And don't overthink it. But with Benny, it was just like, I don't know, play the, yeah, play the piano part. Great. I think I messed up this thing. He's like, ah, it doesn't matter. Cool. I think this one note was a little weird. No, no, no, no. It was cool. It was good. Oh, okay. Great.

27:23Sometimes you just need somebody to be like, I didn't hear the thing that you're talking about. Or maybe you did, but it's so insignificant and it actually adds this human element that we want, you know, as listeners. And the drum thing is, okay, go over and play this drum thing. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Like, wow, really? Like, I am a drummer, but I'm not like drummer guy. Like I can play some stuff and I'll play on my demos and things and I'll sometimes play on my records. But he's just like, yeah, that was really good. Like, that's what the song needs. This is exactly what I'm hearing on this.

27:53And then maybe he'd say, oh, redo this one little part. I think you should, maybe it'd be cool to have this. Okay, great. You know, to have somebody else around and not being nonchalant because of, like, you can be nonchalant because you're bored and want to just get the thing done. Or you can be nonchalant in the way that's like, no, we're making good art. We'll speak up when it needs more attention. But if it doesn't need more attention, just keep it rolling, baby. So that was really fun doing that with Benny.

28:25And then watching Benny's process of, he wanted to record the vocal stuff himself and just do it in his flow. And watching him do that was really cool.

Arranging Better Than This

28:51Another song I wanted to mention was Better Than This, which pulls a really nice trick because it opens with those very romantic strings, but then drops into this dark sort of robotic groove. Are you building that from maybe from a synthesizer or a bass line first? Or does most of that rhythmic stuff come from the guitar and then you're translating it or chopping it up? The original idea for that song was a thing that Cody Frye sent me.

29:22And it was just that kind of 808 sounding bass with groove and him going, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da. And it was just that, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da. So it was just like a eight bar thing that he sent. He's like, I don't think I'm going to use this, but there's something cool about it. You want to use this for anything of yours? And this is years ago, by the way. He sent this to me in 2022 or 23. So he sent me that where it was basically just bass drums and his vocal.

29:57And then I was hearing some different rhythmic elements to it and adding real bass in with the synth bass, kind of a layered thing. And then I was hearing that du-du-du-di-du-du-di-du-du-du-di-du-du-di-du-du-du-di-du-du-di guitar part. Then I was hearing some other chord changes made up a little bit of a form and a demo, sent it back to Cody. And he's like, oh yeah, this is cool. Maybe let's just get in the room together. and vibe and we got in the room together i was like i think we just need some other

30:32sections i'm hearing some other chord changes and things let's try this and then you go oh yeah well let's try this version of it and again a jamiroquois reference that beginning and that pre-chorus was kind of referencing canned heat the intro of that you know just kind of having this chordal movement that all of a sudden drops into a groove something that again is kind of a scene change so cody and i sat down at his house pretty much got all the song together cut a demo

31:09vocal and then i worked on a bunch more arrangement stuff i had michael nelson my main horn arranger write for horns and strings on that so he had a full string section record that stuff just to give that old school disco vibe to it the real strings rather than computer strings i always prefer to have real people so we added that element and then it was just kind of piece by piece you know the song was kind of put together and then we added other elements and other elements and it's like oh i think

31:44we're done you know it just kind of gets to that point where am i gonna keep adding stuff nope we're good that's cool i've never thought of that sort of jamiroquois reference of the string intro dropping into a groove but of course they did that on quite a few things didn't they yeah after saying it out loud and then if people know their catalogs oh yeah that is quite obvious but clearly it's not it's not like i'm ripping them off it's just oh that's a cool idea to have have a scene change from one pretty chords right into a hard-hitting groove that's just a concept right and jamiroquois is

32:21not the only one who's ever done pretty chords into dropping into a cool groove like a hard-hitting groove but in my mind and you know thinking as me as a child back to my earlier influences you know that just sticks out as something you know there's certain things that i grew up listening to with the chili peppers where it's like oh it's this thing with this oh it's that punk funk energy you know like there's a lot of ways to interpret that but you know 12 year old cory just it's an

32:53immediate reference that's obvious to me because i grew up with it old love cd it's gtb that's just you and me can you believe i don't think that there could ever be anything better than this

Navigating lyrics and vocalists

33:14so when it comes to the lyrics in your material when you're working on vocal material do you have a strong vision for what that's going to be or will you let your collaborators take more of a lead on that kind of stuff totally depends on the song and the collaborator some of the tunes i have a concept

33:45for and maybe a few lines or just some ideas that we can we can use as a starting point for lyrics but i find that whoever's singing them it's normally better if they're involved in the writing because then they're going to connect to the tune a little better and they're going to deliver it in a more compelling way if they're involved in the writing the only exception to that on the album is from now on that one i wrote with phoebe cadis and lewis cato sang it but i sent a bunch of tunes

34:18to lewis like hey here's some stuff i'm working on do you want to write something together do you want to work on something for the album he's like i mean yeah but i want to just sing that song that song is i love this song i connect to this song i want to sing this song just give it to me in a different key so the tune from now on was already fully written and then lewis sang that one but that one i had i had written in 2020 kind of about all stuff going on in the world post george floyd here

34:49in minneapolis and just uh thinking about you know the world and the state of people arguing with each other or disagreeing and and what does that mean for us but it also the way that i was writing it could have been interpreted a bit as like a love song as well maybe a breakup song but regardless it didn't feel appropriate for me to sing that and then i was also like i kind of i don't know that i figured out this song so i sent it to phoebe phoebe's like oh let's change this this this this

35:23i think this is better she'll she's very good at helping me edit a lot of stuff and and we work really well together in writing it we've written together for her albums and mine so we wrote it and then lewis just sang that one but like rose's fade on the new album with devon gilfilian that's one where i had a bunch of things written and then sent it to him and then he kind of rewrote a bunch of things that he connected with and certain themes stay with me

35:55stephen day and i just wrote together in the room just went for it he just sang stay with me just like the song starts and then we just went with that concept it was just kind of like oh here's the story of a person begging somebody who won't return their calls or you know is talking about leaving tongue tied that one lyrically was mostly steven and then i just kind of helped with a handful of lines and oh let's try this let's try this let's try this but yeah the one with taylor was done in the room together but mostly him i think that that sort of thing sometimes if somebody's

36:31taking the lead on it and then somebody being a little bit of a sounding board can be good a lot writing sessions that i do like in nashville there will be a lyrics person a music person and like a engineer person tracks person who's kind of producing with everybody involved and most of the sessions that i do i'm music and computer guy and then there's somebody who's lyrics and singing and we're both giving input on both of them that's where i work really well

37:04is if somebody's like an amazing lyricist and singer and we can just give input back and forth if we're like in the room together writing the thing giving each other energy that's where i work best but it's all over the place but in the end we understand even the strongest love can fade so maybe instead i'm getting one step ahead

37:36just let the truth and it seems like um voice memos are pretty crucial to your process they sure are

Voice memos as bottled inspiration

37:59are those usually melodic ideas rhythmic things and yeah let me see what are my most current voice memos here you can see i got oh wow hundreds and hundreds do you have any system for organizing those or or is it just thousands of untitled numbered voice memos this is recording number 159 of the year february this is absolutely nothing special about that maybe i was just liking what i was playing at the time

38:36sometimes it's seven so clearly it's just bad singing but i'm like here's an idea in seven you can hear my feet walking in what sounds like an outdoor area and people walking sometimes it's like oh i have an idea in my head well i'm hearing this thing it's seven huh i don't normally write in odd i mean i write some stuff in odd meter but i don't put out songs on my albums as much in odd meter i remember that now i was in the pacific northwest i was at a

39:09festival and i was walking and hearing a tune in seven interesting oh let me at least just sing down the arc of the melody and the phrase and i just want to capture this because i'm hearing something now that's sparking some level of creativity that i would totally explore if i were not out here on a walk with my friends so a lot of times a voice memo serve as capturing like bottling up a little bit of that inspiration and creativity and then when i sit down here in my studio and i'm just like all right

39:40what am i gonna do today i don't know what i'm gonna do and maybe i'll start playing and try to find inspiration or energy in something and then create from nothing but a lot of times these voice memos serve as a catalyst it's like oh yeah that idea in seven let's let's let's explore that oh yeah what was i hearing what was that oh yeah yeah yeah okay let me try this and so i've now taken up this this bottled up creativity and inspiration that was there in another moment

40:10and passed it down the line to me today and now all of a sudden i have something to run with so voice memos really serve well to capture some of that inspo and creativity when i'm not able to really sit and harness it maybe i'm at the airport or i'm on the bus and i don't have my gear with me but i do have this sort of thing what's funny is i was talking to bail a fleck about this the banjo player and he was saying oh yeah back in the day i used to have a dedicated phone line

40:42with a voice message machine where i'd call my own phone and i'd leave a voice message on my on the answering machine with creative ideas so i wouldn't lose them so like i'd just call back home and then you know they would get recorded on his answering machine like oh yeah that is a brilliant idea but now we have these voice memos that are so easily accessible for all of us it's the concept's been there all along yeah yeah do you find any of them

41:12are guitar hooks that end up becoming riffs on the album i was thinking of something like the ogre and hook on the big payoff is that something that might have started life as a voice note no that one just came straight to me that one i was i was in london i was working with ellis who's a producer actually i think he lives kind of close to you simon but i won't dox you to the other piece of the people listening here but i i know that he lives close to where you're at

41:44he came to london because i was there working on some stuff and he he's like all right here's um here's kind of a cool groove here's a cool beat i think he started just playing some drum loop and i just started going it's literally the first thing that i thought of i was like oh that's cool yeah it feels like kind of a minneapolis it just comes from home so we recorded that in that line was not a voice memo that was just the first thing that came to my head when he started playing that groove

42:16and doesn't always work like that sometimes it takes 15 or 16 different things but because and honestly i might have played that and been like ah whatever try something different but i started playing that and he's like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that you know so that's why collaborating and co-writing is great because oh this is clearly doing something for you okay cool like for me it was just my first instinct on the guitar great it sounds like me cool i'm used to hearing me

42:47but i think for him oh yeah yeah yeah this oh try this oh let's do this let's do this where are you hearing it go like ah i could hear it go into these four different chord changes which one of these do you like best oh my gosh what's that one let's do that oh yeah yeah and then the creative energy of the back and forth and i say okay turn on these synths just go for it and then he'll start doing something then i get excited and he's like oh it's just it's just this you know in the same way that i'm i don't know i'm just playing this line you get into stuff that you're so used to hearing yourself do that when you're in a collaborative setting

43:19it's new to this other person and now all of a sudden it's exciting for both of you so and and and and speaking of the big payoff

43:58I must thank you for documenting that recording session with Sonny Tay and Michael Bland that's just man so incredible those guys are so fun they're so great I mean those are really kind of my mentors I cut my teeth learning from those guys I mean they're the new power generation rhythm section and you know growing up in Minneapolis if you're in the R&B or funk scene you're bound to you know as you rise up in your proficiency you normally will end up

44:29as a part of that crew but those guys are so fun together and I think a lot of recordings don't show Sonny and Michael's personality and who they are as people as much you don't get the entirety of their personality by listening to them play but it's really fun to just get the banter and all that stuff on video because Minnesota cats man

Instrumental forms with John Batiste

44:51here we are do you have to have quite a different kind of compositional mindset when you're doing instrumental stuff we did love that record that you did with John Batiste and we wondered whether that is something that you have to kind of approach in a slightly different way than the traditional song forms in the instrumental realm I come from the jazz tradition and a little more specifically in the like jazz modal jazz

45:22tradition headhunters weather report a lot of that era which I hesitate to say fusion because some people when they think fusion they think of a different thing yeah but song forms like traditional form where it's like you play the melody in solo take turns soloing and then play the melody out maybe it's A-A-B-A form or A-A-B form or A-B form and then you just like stick to that

45:52and then solo over that and then play that thing out I never connected as much with that exact thing I'm more like I have traditional song forms of my own like how I hear instrumental music in my head and just kind of like where the momentum needs to go and now I'm kind of it's flipped upside down for me where I'm like oh it's totally okay to just like have a thing and then it goes to a completely new thing for the second half of the tune you know almost in a little more of the

46:23classical sense but it's not playing classical music at all it's just almost like classical music forms in certain ways that we can approach writing it's funny you bring up the Batiste album that is so much different than any of the other albums that I've done because what he and I did is we had a dropbox going of a bunch of voice memos there's a dropbox called Hammond I mean neither one of us was playing Hammond organ but it's a bunch of voice memos of either things that I was doing on acoustic or electric guitar and then him

46:54playing piano or us in the green room at the late show with Stephen Colbert just he and I playing piano and guitar and our whole vision was we play stuff and then it's just like surrounded by the air of a Hammond organ like that was the vision of the album and we didn't want to compose too much it was like let's let's just write some sketches of tunes and see where it goes so

47:24one of them well one of them was a tune that had already existed called home that he and I had recorded together but it's like let's make a little more ambiguous version of it and then another one was something that I had already written called meditation which is really just kind of one simple melody and it's a bit of a mantra then I had a voice memo that was me just kind of playing this acoustic guitar loop that ended up being I believe it was called teardrops yes

47:55and I'm pausing because I'm trying to remember I remember the first time I played it for him I was just playing and he just goes teardrops on the subway platform I'm like dang yeah so I just started playing it and then but it's just this very simple thing in in D and it's got this thing where the three and the four are kind of ringing over each other you know the thing with the F sharp and the open G string kind of ringing over each

48:25other it has a certain thing to it that voicing and moving it around that one was just like a guitar loop you know or like an idea that that like let's see where we can just start with that and then paint over it and he had this tune called relationships that was just two little ideas of like here's a sketch for an A melody here's a sketch for the B and what we did is we had these six ideas that were just ideas in his

48:55mind and my mind we both kind of had them we were playing we just kind of messed around and jammed on them didn't really think of going anywhere and then we went and did these sessions and he's like all right let's get a Hammond organ player he's like I like this guy Sam Yael and Sam had played in the Joshua Redman elastic band I was a big fan of that and I saw Sam open for Steely Dan a couple times so I'm like frick yeah I want to meet this guy he's he's dope so we got him to be the Hammond and I was

49:25like should we need like we definitely don't need drums but I think I think we should have something of rhythmic momentum because I don't think that's gonna be me like there's no bass player or should I play bass on this album instead of guitar and he was like yeah let's just get somebody who's not gonna play drums let's get somebody who's gonna play rhythmic momentum so we got Nate Smith he was in town and we just went in the studio and Nate and Sam are both like well what are the compositions and I just write down like on a piece

49:56of paper like I'm gonna play a riff and then we're gonna kind of like sit here and then John's gonna kind of like take it somewhere and then I'll kind of he'll pass it off to me and then and then we'll just end it they're like okay man what all right you know but they're both so comfortable in that sort of thing and that those people were hand picked for that reason you know Sam and Nate know how to listen and and be in the moment so that album we

50:26recorded straight down in 30 minutes we went in and boom here's the order that we're gonna do it we didn't stop and do another take of each song it's just we recorded the album down in 30 minutes went back in the control room listen down cool cool cool we came in the next day did it again just recorded it down once and then hung out and then the next day we did it again it's like ah you know what we we got it the first time you know so that album compositionally that that was such a like a free in the

50:58moment thing here's these ideas let's just see where they go which is the opposite of lost in the wonder where it's like the writing the producing is so much a part of it where that album was just what is the moment what's the feeling where can we take this right now and it's never going to be the same a few people have

Balancing familiarity and surprise

51:42said to us that they see more structured songwriting is like mathematical equations that need to be solved I think you've said something similar about your music too is that the challenge for you finding the right pieces of the puzzle yeah in a certain sense they are that way which is why playing the meditations album and recording that was in a very it was a challenge for me and any of these any album that I do I I want it to be fun and I want it to challenge me and make me grow

52:13in my artistry and my yeah in in my creativity and that album the meditations album was a challenge for me because it's can I allow myself the freedom and the vulnerability to just go for it in the moment and that that album is such a a light lift as far as the guitar but John and I came up with a concept together can we execute the concept and a lot of my role in that as

52:44like a producer with him was executing that vision and just being a part of the sonic palette on the guitar and and just kind of helping make the thing go and the math problem of pop songs and and songs that are more form driven a lot of it is it's about momentum it's just like what where does this need to go where where is this thing asking to go and how do you do it

53:15in a way that feels both predictable and surprising at the same time in my opinion the listener should have some sense of familiarity with the music even before the song's done there's something that should feel like they're able to connect and like oh I know this I know this but there should be elements of surprise everywhere that perk them up so I like the certain things to feel familiar but for them to

53:45also be challenged in a certain way again like I was saying earlier maybe you know that a solo or a bridge is coming but you had no idea that I was going to modulate a minor third or maybe you thought that this was a love song but it's actually about society and the different sides of the song that that people end up taking when it comes to social issues or maybe you thought it was social issues and and it ends up actually being a little

54:15more personal I think there's elements of surprise in the writing in the producing that are important and that to me is part of the math problem is how do you make it surprising to the listener yet familiar and comfortable yeah I know we need to let you go Corey but thanks so much for sharing all that about your process and it's great hearing the range of approaches that you take whether it's just like colors and you know the more abstract kind of thing or something that's on paper or something that's

54:45much more kind of locked into like a mathematical approach you really do it all don't you yeah I do for better or worse I'll say it's for better but I again it's it's all for the sake of challenging myself and trying to grow and keep doing my thing as an artist different avenues of creativity are would keep that muscle growing that was the brilliant Corey

55:34Wong talking to us about his new record lost in the wonder and much more besides such an infectiously enthusiastic guy oh yeah which comes across not only in how he talks about his creative process but also the music he makes and his guitar playing too yeah and obviously he's talked about his guitar playing quite a lot over the years so it was nice to veer more into the songwriting and compositional side yeah I took a lot away from that you know he really appreciates the nuances of all these different parts of the process doesn't he you know whether it's writing or composing or arranging or

56:05producing yeah and he seems to be able to do it pretty much anywhere if need be you know he can be on a barge in Amsterdam or in his home studio and he uses the collection of voice notes that he shared with us doesn't he as bottled up inspiration to get started yeah it's really getting that momentum going that's important isn't it exactly and then from there you might rely on some tried and true techniques like hitting the bridge after the second chorus or modulating for the final chorus or the solo or whatever but those things are worth doing even if they have the desired emotional impact yeah you know

56:36there is a reason why they work after all yeah but that doesn't mean you can't still do something unusual or really interesting with those moments to surprise the listener absolutely I loved hearing the distinction between how he approaches vocal material and instrumental music yeah it really seems to depend on the song and the collaborator doesn't it you know he's flexible enough to let others take the lead where appropriate and in other situations he's fully in control yeah the work with Stephen Day on Tongue Tide I thought was a good example where he let someone else just completely transform the song totally and

57:06you know sometimes he changes up the process completely like the way he felt his way through the collaboration with John Batiste or how he just kind of grabbed whatever instrument was to hand when he was working with Benny Sings he didn't remember what instruments he even used did he no they were just sort of a means to an end yeah which is a sure sign that they were in some kind of a flow state there and quite happy to leave in certain imperfections yeah so thanks to Corey for the illuminating conversation lost in the wonder is out now cheers again to Tom for organizing and we'll be back with you again soon take care bye

57:37bye