#512 - Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Architecture

Answering listener questions

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bordero-Nay. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. Today, it's the two of us. In a fellow designer episode, we're going to answer questions from listeners. Now, before we get, we're not going to get through all of them, and the reason why we're not going to get through all of them is because there's a handful, and there's a handful because my app on my phone used to ding when I got a message.

It stopped dinging. As of, like, six months ago. So, some of these questions are kind of outdated. I'm going to do my best to reply to these people and say, hey, do you remember that you messaged our hotline six months ago? And we finally answered your question, which is no longer relevant because you moved on in life.

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Transitioning to architecture

2:07Here we go. We're going to answer questions from listeners. Do you want to hit us with the first one? The message goes, Hi, Marina and David. We have chatted a few times, but our last chat was about a builder I worked for. Well, I have great news. Earlier this year, I was hired at an architectural firm that does certain types of projects. Not residential. Not residential. Larger-scale work. It's been a wonderful experience, and I recently got a raise. But with this, I'm experiencing a serious case of imposter syndrome.

2:38Although I am close in age with many of my coworkers, I'm the least experienced and still in school. The raise that I was given feels like too much, and I'm not living up to that. Since having started earlier this year, every day has been a learning opportunity, and it is only now that I've been able to contribute even the smallest of ideas. It's an interesting experience to go from feeling undervalued and taken advantage of to being paid well and appreciated, and my fear is that I won't live up to their expectations

3:10on my own within a reasonable amount of time. With all of that, moving from a small builder to a firm that has been a transition in every way imaginable, from etiquette to verbiage to the process of making a change order and feel verifying, I know I won't always have this imposter syndrome, but it has been a heavy chip on my shoulder the last few months. Thank you for all the time you've taken to speak with me. Each conversation, no matter how small, has been extremely helpful. From our first chat, where I had just gotten accepted into an architecture program to our

3:44last chat about how to handle my builder and how to see the value in myself as a designer. Samantha Smith. No, that's not her name.

3:54Well. Brandon Smith. Jane Doe. Jane Doe. Yeah, those are not real names. I mean, no, I'm sure there is people who are named that. A Jane Doe? Is there a Jane Doe, you think? That'd be horrible. Oh, I'm sure. If you're a hitman. Some parents are not thoughtful, you know. Or they did it on purpose. Yeah, so that is an interesting... Actually, it's interesting to kind of like, you know, follow up the life of our listeners, you know, through those messages and kind of see like what you all are up to and changes you're doing and all of that.

4:29And I think it's probably one of the first time we've heard someone be like, I'm basically overpaid and I'm like underqualified. Like, I don't feel like I deserve what I'm getting. Yeah. Especially in the field of architecture. I'm sure it exists plenty in other fields. But in the field of architecture, it doesn't happen to be that common. So it is very interesting. So what would you say to Samantha Smith?

Contractor versus traditional office

4:57So for some context, I was trying to remember and recall how much experience this person has. Just for the sake of general context, I think they have a few years of professional experience at this point. But a lot of it was working for a GC. And working for a GC compared to an architecture office, like a real architecture office that does just architecture or design, is a completely, completely, completely different thing. So for some context on that, and people don't know, when you're an architect working for a general contractor doing effectively design build,

5:36that's why you'd be working there. If you're working as an architect for the GC, it's a design build operation. I don't mean to say that you happen to be an architect, but you're now doing project management for a GC. Like, you know, you're acting as an architect plus other things for the GC. So in that capacity, it's different. Like, the workflow within that type of business is different from an architecture office. The attention to detail is going to be different.

6:07The priorities are going to be different. The timeline and schedules is going to be different. How you vet stuff, how you be, what am I saying? How you ensure that you're making the right decisions is different. Like, everything's different if you're working for a builder in that capacity. But do we know if she was designing, if the firm she was working at was a design build or just probably OGC? Design build, from what I recall. Oh. Yeah.

6:37But I think in a lot of cases with design build, if you're an architect there, you're not just doing architecture because it's not enough. You're also doing project management and other things. But my point is that the workflow and the standards that you're used to in that business for the architecture portion, excuse me, and also for the project management portion, all of it is completely different than when you work for a traditional architecture office during large-scale work. Because the line of communication between the architect and the architect and the GC is shortcutted.

7:12Yeah, there's almost no, yeah. It's like you tap the guy's shoulder that's behind you, you ask the question, boom, decision made. Like, you know, there's no need for like a formal email, a phone call, a site meeting, like it all happens in-house. It happens in-house and also because there's more of the services under one umbrella. There's less concern about liability and less concern about mistakes being made because it's all under one business. Now, of course, you don't want to make mistakes, but like if a person makes a mistake, then it gets fixed and there's no finger pointing because we're going to finger point at your own business at the end of the day.

7:47And so, and I think the scale of work, I believe, if I remember, was smaller scale compared to what they're doing now. So, it's a completely different situation to be in. When you work at a larger, I don't know the size of this new office, but I'm going to presume they're larger. When you work at a larger office doing larger work, there's consultants up the wazoo. There's a consultant for every single thing in the project. The documentation process is a lot heavier. Super heavy, super thorough, much more formal is another word that can be used in a good way and sometimes a bad way as well.

8:23Because like, as you can imagine, you have more people working together, more middle management, more politics, more this and that. They can get quite muddy pretty quick and I've seen that firsthand.

8:35It's a completely different ball game. And I think that in that setting of that larger practice doing larger work, it's, from my own experience, I would say I found it to be like a lot calmer in general. Smaller practices, especially design-build ones, I think, are much more fluid and loose, like we're kind of alluding to. Things happen very fast and your head is on a swivel because your task was solving six different things.

9:07You're keeping track of six different things because it's a small practice and you're doing design and construction. Big office, you're probably responsible for like one thing and that's kind of it. And then there's a lot of other people doing a lot of other things when you're a junior level person. Yeah, but I feel like bigger offices also work on bigger scale work. Yeah. And therefore, even if you know your level of stress is reduced to like a tiny portion of the whole project, you still kind of carry that with you, though, because you know that the stakes are a lot higher on those projects than the ones you work on at a small office.

9:42That's true. That's true. I mean, where my head goes to is, for example, if we're comparing a type five house that's just a 2,000 square foot single family house, someone locates a beam or a wall in the wrong place, it's slightly off, I can tear it down and build it back in half a day. It's type five. It's two by four, two by six. It's not a big deal. So, on a big project, though, if someone made a boo-boo in coordinating HVAC with giant three-foot deep beams, you have a serious problem.

10:16So, yeah, I think that's actually a really good point. The stress is different, I guess. We haven't even answered the question. No, we haven't. So, what's interesting is she used to work for a builder who seemed to be probably a design builder. She got hired to this new firm, got given a raise, so that means they're probably valuing her joining their team and the skills that she's bringing to that team, right? But she feels like she hasn't really been able to contribute that much, so they're paying her well, but she felt like she's kind of, like, not performing as well as she felt like she should for that pay.

10:50I think, you know, she said she started a few months ago, earlier this year, so you kind of have to give yourself some time. You're just starting in a new place. You have to find your marks. You have to understand how things work. You have to understand that new typology of projects you're working on that you might not have any experience on, and I think people shouldn't be expecting you from, you know, coming up with the best idea as you start there. They understand you're new. You come from a different background. So, you know, I get the imposter syndrome, and I think it's normal when you've made a change.

11:23Let's say if in five years you still have that imposter syndrome, then you should be concerned, but as of now, it's totally normal. And again, I think she should remember why they chose to hire her to join the team, despite her not maybe having that experience, right? Yeah, 100%. Because that's why she was given the raise. It's not because she just got hired. It's because she got hired for the skills she acquired in the previous place, right? Well, yes to all that stuff.

Timeframes and expectations

11:55I think there's a couple of things at play. One, when you're younger, six months or a year or two years feels like a long time. It's not a long time, those numbers I've mentioned. Six months is nothing. Honestly, it takes at least a year before you start to feel really settled, and I think two years feels different, and then et cetera, et cetera. So anything under a year, you know the basics of the office maybe.

12:23I mean, you can certainly discern if an office is a terrible place to work at pretty quickly if you're smart. But in terms of getting situated, really, and being part, you feel like you're part of the office, and you feel like you're contributing. You feel like you are one of the team. You're not an outsider. Forgetting the skill level kind of issue of imposter syndrome, but just feeling like you're not an outsider anymore. This is my desk. I do belong here, and no one's looking at me like, why is this person here? It takes a while for that to happen, like a year, period, especially when you're younger.

12:55So that comes into play. I think also, first of all, for this individual, anyone who gets a raise and is making probably good or decent money, I don't know the numbers, but I'm going to guess that it's decent. It's not anything tremendous. No one in architecture is making a tremendous amount of money as a salary.

13:16If you're like this person, you feel an imposter syndrome, it probably says more about you than it does anything else, meaning to say that you're a very considerate, kind person who is sincerely worried about whether or not you're having a positive impact on other people. That says a lot about the person. Like most people will get a raise and be like, yeah, awesome, fuck it. I don't care if I deserve it or not. You know, I have the raise. Or they feel entitled, and of course I deserved it.

13:46You know, they don't question it. And why would I have to do any more work than what I've been doing? There's a lot of that. You know, it was meant to be. So, yeah, I think it says that, you know, she's thankful for what she's been given and she wants to make sure that she kind of gives back, you know, from having gotten that raise. So, that makes sense.

14:08And then in terms of experience and knowledge, it also ties into the timeline and how long things take. Any office, you know, who hires somebody, they know your experience level. They've done the research. They have your resume. They have your resume. They know where you've worked before. And if they choose, again, if they choose to hire you, despite you not having that specific typology experience, that's on them. And there's more room in practices that are larger size.

14:44It's easier for them to hire people based on their talent, skill, and personality rather than a specific experience. That tends to be harder to do in a small practice. In general, I'm saying. Because in a smaller practice, you need people to be productive, like, quickly. Maybe not day one, but, like, after a month, you've got to be productive in some meaningful capacity.

15:07In a larger office, because of the finances and workflows and whatever else, it's easier for the office to say, this person's talented. They don't have the right background. I don't care. We're happy to sink in months of time with them for them to get up to speed. Because it takes that long anyway. It takes that long anyway. And that's just part of it. And sometimes you get hired also because of your personality. I mean, let's be honest. The experience is one thing. But who you are as a person and how you're going to fit within.

15:40How you're going to fit. I said, what did I say? I said, what did I say? I said, droove? You said a word the other day. I droved. I droved. I droved to Central Coast. And the person I was speaking, was it you or someone? I said it twice. They were like, what's wrong with you? You said something to that. You said scaffolding or something like that. You said it weird and I was like, I thought the first time the tongue was just doing something. Then you said it twice the same. I was like, I don't think you know the word.

16:11I know diagrams. So you might not get a raise. I see the world of diagrams. Words are secondary to me.

16:21But no, but I think, you know, that's also something that employees should know is that you're not only hired. Sometimes you're not even mostly hired for your experience. You're hired for who you are as a person. How you're going to fit within the team. And what you're going to bring to that office. Besides, you know, like, okay, what software do you know? And what projects have you worked on? Because if you have the right personality, the right mindset, you're the right match for, you know, that team you're joining. It doesn't really matter what project you're going to be working on.

16:51Like, it's going to work out. Yeah. And I think that should alleviate the imposter syndrome too, is that you're going to learn those things. Like, you're going to be surrounded by people who have been working on those projects for years. They're going to show you the ropes on how to approach those things. Like, you get it. It's fine. And two, this reminds me, I've been in offices where there are people, this is kind of pushing your idea further beyond what you're actually saying. I've been in offices where there are people who are like really not very productive.

17:21And I don't think they were very good at their job either. But you keep them around like you have the office dog, you know, it's kind of like, I mean, you know, it's like they're part of the wars now. And like, they don't even, you can't imagine the world without them. You know what I mean? You're sort of not wrong, right? They're there because they bring a social value to the office. And yes, they are productive. They do the grunt work stuff, but they're not actually bringing real, real like working

17:51value. But it's like, if they can do the tasks that need to be done that no one else is doing, and also they shape how the office feels as a culture. Sorry. Yes. And then that office function better, everyone's happier. That's actually worth a lot. And I'm not saying that this person is that way or that all offices seek that person, but I've seen it before. And it's just an example of like, to your point, but to an extreme degree, like it's really not just about skill set.

18:23If it's a certain, you know, body of people that are in the office, if it's like three people that know you can't afford to have the office dog be an employee, you have to have a certain, you know, number of people for that to happen. It's kind of like, you know, again, like you take a movie, like there's the main cast and then there is like the supporting actors. Yeah. Yeah. Again. Sometimes though, you do find like some dusty supporting actors that you could not keep around. You know what I mean? And oddly, sometimes those people are paid the most.

18:53Well, yeah. The question is, did they even, did they get lazy after a while or were they always like that? Um, the other thing too, is from an employer's perspective, I, again, for larger work, especially they think of employees contribution to the office and their life and timeline with the office on a much, much bigger scale. So I was recently speaking with an architect who does, um, education schools. They do, they do schools. And he was remarking, and any architect would agree with this actually, that the, their,

19:27their most expensive, um, you know, uh, line item in your spreadsheet is, is the people. And the most, and even more specifically, the thing that costs you the most is when you make a bad hire, or if you hire somebody good or bad, and they leave after like six months or a year, that basically means you lost six months worth of whatever you're paying them. And then you have to do more research to find someone else that, which taxes your people. Maybe there's a recruiter involved, like maybe, maybe, maybe.

19:58And it's a, it's a lot, maybe I'm not helping the distress of this person, but it's, it's a lot of, of money to sink into a person. Um, and so now I'm making the opposite point of stressing this individual out, but what I'm trying to say is that like, like six months is not a big deal. They, I'm guarantee your office is concerned about like the one, two, three, four, five year mark. And that's where they're seeing you go. Uh, that, that's, that's what they have in their mind. They're not concerned with, oh, you didn't know this thing this last month because you just learned it. They don't care about that.

20:29They're thinking, well, how are you going to perform in the future, future? But there is something, you know, when you're young and you're starting in a new place, like the, the fear of the job being taken away from you after you got hired, if you don't perform well, you know, I think it comes back to, you know, like experience in, in school, you know, growing up where you have to get the good grade in order to get to the next round. Right. And it's kind of like, like, am I on the line if I don't, if I don't show good work?

21:00Like, am I being constantly evaluated for what I'm, what I'm doing? You know, what's interesting is that recently, I don't know when this is going to come out, but we had Andy Bernheimer on the show. It was just me in that interview. It was talking about, you don't need to rub it in my face. I was rubbing anything. Um, but it was, that was about his office forming a union and you guys will have to listen to the episode to, to, to get his take on it. But one of the things, one of the benefits of a union, which is not the first thing people think

21:32of is it creates total transparency between the two sides, the sides being the, the, the workers that are, you know, united and then the leadership of the office because, and the transparency because they, they make an agreement and there's a formal contract that's between them. So it's all there. So you don't have this fear and concern as much of it because it's all on the table. Like, you know, transparently what both sides want. You come into agreement and you've agreed to that. That's what it is. And then you revise it, I think every three years or something like that.

22:04Um, but you're right though.

Fear of being let go

22:07Um, especially when you're younger, there's always this thing of like, you, it's like the boss is leaving. Do I leave now? Do I not leave now? He asked me to get coffee or I got coffee for him, but he didn't like it. Does that mean, what does that mean? Yeah. And I feel like trying to read between the lines and it's, I don't know. I, it's kind of like.

22:31If the, if, if, if the concern is being axed, right. Being, being fired, being let go.

22:38It's not going to happen if it's going to happen. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, to be honest, it's kind of outside of your control. Like, um, if it's because you don't have the skillset, that's their fault. They hired you. They should have known better. If the work stops, that's probably not their fault and not your fault. If you suck, that's your fault, but it's probably baked into who you are. Or like, it's kind of just going to be what it's going to be. That's not to say people should be lazy, but for the folks who are stellar, like this individual, if you were to get let go, I, I, I've spoken to this person a few times now.

23:12I'd be, I would be like, I, I can almost guarantee without hearing the story, it wasn't your fault. You know what I mean? So hopefully they provide some reassurance to this individual or others who are good people, do good work and are smart. Like it doesn't work out. There's not really much you could have done about it. I think it's hard to, and you know, you join a team and let's say the rest of the team is around your age. And they've, you know, they've been in the firm for a few years. They obviously have more experience in those types of projects than you do because you just joined and you kind of feel, you know, like indirectly compared to them.

23:46Or you at least compare yourself to them, you know, and, and, and you feel like, it's not, it's not like internal competition, but it's more like I'm not as, as good as they are. It's kind of a, I don't know. I don't know if I have a question there or anything to say really, but. Well, the worst thing you can do in that situation, if you feel that way is to close up and then to fake it till you make it too much.

Asking questions without fear

24:13Everyone has to fake it till they make it to a degree. That's just how it goes.

24:19But if you let that change how you think or let it prevent you from asking questions, then it's a problem.

24:31You know, I think the asking questions thing is, is, is, is a, is a, is a point because you ask a question, you're afraid you're going to feel dumb. That's always the case with anybody. Right. And, and, um, but you have to ask questions and actually prove that you are dumb is if you don't ask questions, to be honest. Yeah. Um, whether it be with the relationship between, be between employees, employers, or from like our office to consultants or consultants, like everybody, if we're not asking, if whoever it is not asking questions, either that means they, they know all of us and they don't need to talk about it, which is like really clear.

25:08Uh, it's that, that, that'll be communicated or they don't know and they're not asking. And that's a major red flag to everyone else who's older and has been through all this many, many times. Yeah. Um, it's like, there's no way you don't have questions, you know? Yeah. And it's actually a missed opportunity and I, you know, learning. Um, yeah, well, I'd said it before, openly on the show. That was my mistake. And when I was, um, younger in offices, I was really afraid of being let go. Not because I was a bad employee.

25:38Some of the offices, I was not a great employee either. Um, I just, we can talk about that if you want to, but it was, uh, I was afraid. And, um, I felt like with the, I always fought really hard to get the. You should have asked, you should have just have played dumb and just ask a bunch of questions. And then one day you show up like pretty smart. No, I agree. Uh, but I didn't do that. And I, and actually, I don't know, I didn't think about it until now, but the question that they're asking, this person's asking is sort of similar to what I felt like.

26:10Not, not because I felt like I was being overpaid. That was never, ever the case. But, um, I just felt like I was going, it was going to be revealed that I don't know as much as I should know. I think we've already experienced that at some point in our career. Yeah. In the younger days. Yeah. And so that would, I would, I would shut down or try. I was more concerned in round table conversations. I was more concerned with making sure I hold my position as someone who appears to have a certain amount of knowledge.

26:41And be, be kind of like a self-preservation rather than being concerned with learning things. Yeah, no, I, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've had the imposter syndrome probably every time I switched office because of the fact that you are starting. Because you're French. Because of the fact that you're starting in a new place. Right. And you're like, you know, it's like you apply, you get the interview, like, you're like, you know, very like convinced you, you, you know, you, you want to get it, you're the best and whatever.

27:13And then you start, you realize you're like, everyone is up there and you're down here because you're just starting in that place. Yeah. And you do, but, but I remember, and I think I probably asked way more questions in my first few jobs than I did in my last ones. Also, because there is a lot that I didn't know when I started. But again, I used, I think I mentioned that before. I used the fact that I was a foreigner as an excuse to ask questions about everything. Yeah. Because the truth is, I didn't know a lot of stuff because of that.

27:44And I felt like in order for me to feel more confident and less of an imposter the next time, I needed to learn those things. And, you know, some of the stuff, like I can figure it out myself, but some of the others, like it's faster for me to ask someone. Yeah. No, it's the better way to do things. Because it also, I think for myself, the, one of the turning points that occurred was, you go along, you realize like, oh, no one knows what the fuck they're doing.

28:15You know what I mean? Yeah, make a work section. And you're like, what is this? I don't know how we just put it all. Let's put it on the drawings. Like, aren't you like the senior project manager in this office? I mean, no, obviously, the older folks know more information. You know, in general, they do. I mean, by default, yeah. They quantifiably know more things, yes. But it doesn't mean, so like relative to you, they know more stuff. But relative to the industry, everyone's babies.

28:47You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's compared, like the, like the way I would describe it is that, okay, so when you're a, a seven-year-old and you meet a nine-year-old, like, oh my God, a nine-year-old? I can't talk to the nine-year-old. There are two grades above me. Ooh, they have their own thing. They have their own way of talking. They have their own friends. They have their facial hair and whatever. At nine. Yeah. And their voices do, no. So, do you feel that way? And it's true. The nine-year-old knows significantly more, perhaps, than the seven-year-old, right?

29:19But relative to a 40-year-old, you're the same. Shut up. You're the same. And it's kind of like the same thing. But, but in my, my example, when it's translated, I would say, you know, the seven-year-old is like a late, like 20s, early 20s. And the nine-year-old is like a early 40s. Like, you know, it's a 20-year gap or whatever. But still, you're so close relative to the full body of knowledge of architecture, design, construction, permitting, all that stuff. Like, all of us are trying to, to figure it out.

29:51And again, every project has throws at us, like, just random new things that we have to solve. I mean, I mean, as an architect, you will always, in a way, always have the impartial center because you're always learning. Yeah. You know, but I think, I think the asking question is one way to kind of, like, get that feeling to go away, right? Is, well, if you feel like an imposter, you have to learn the stuff that won't make you an imposter. How do you do that? By asking questions. Yeah. And I think, if you don't feel comfortable asking the questions to the people of your age because you feel like, oh, they're going to think I don't know, but I should know because we're the same age or whatever, then go ask the old guy in the office.

30:29Yeah. You know? And because everyone was young and everyone started with that same, those same feelings and the same lack of knowledge. And they know that you have to acquire it one way or the other, so, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. I think, also, it depends on the people around you in the office. If they're cool, that's a lot easier to feel comfortable. That being said, though, you can't be asking questions all the time about everything because then you don't want to sound like you really know absolutely nothing and people are going to start questioning, okay, what is exactly this person doing here?

31:04So, there is probably some research you have to do on your own. You know, there is some knowledge you have to try and acquire by yourself. True. The way I would draw the line between the two is, well, it's one way to do it. If you're asking questions that you could easily solve on your own within five minutes of trying, ten minutes of trying, then do that.

31:34So, where my mind goes, as I've seen, there are people in offices, their mode of operating is to ask everybody for help, but not in a good way. It's like, they ask, like, where's that file? It's like, no, I don't need to tell you where the file is. If you don't know exactly where it is in the master folder, spend two minutes and use your brain and be like, okay, I'm looking for site information. Go to the folder that says site information and go to the survey.

32:04You know, but... Are you quoting me here? But no, but I've seen in offices people do that, right? And they get in that mode and they're always asking those questions. Yeah. And it's like, you don't, but you actually don't need someone's help for that. And that's a dumb example, that's a simple example, but even more, it applies to more complex things, right? Like, okay, this is a new problem. There's not an, it's not, it's not my example of finding stuff on the server, but it needs to be solved. Like, at least take a crack at it first or something. It's the people who just constantly ping everybody for questions and everyone's like, I'm trying to do work, man.

32:34Do your work. Like, you cannot be wasting other people's time in an office because you don't know stuff. Like, at some point, yeah, you have to figure out yourself. You have to problem solve by yourself.

32:48Yeah. Well, that's tricky too, because again, to this person's situation, if they don't know anything about these things. I mean, I actually think it's worthwhile, again, depending on the culture of the office, depending on the types of questions they have and what they don't, they know and don't know, is you just pull aside the project manager, the director, whoever, and you say, hey, look, I'm feeling kind of confused. I got a, like, I've got like 30 questions to ask. Can we set aside half an hour, an hour, and I'm just going to ask you a bunch of questions

33:20and just bang it out and be done with it rather than trying to drip feed it because I don't want to feel like I'm asking too many. Like, just get it done in one sitting. And to be honest, I never did that, but now that I say it, that makes a lot of sense. Like, let's set aside an hour and hit it all. But I think it's hard to, it's hard for people, especially again, when you started a new place, to admit clearly that you don't know stuff out loud. You know, but it makes sort of sense. And, you know, if, depending the size of the office, depending who hired you,

33:54depending how comfortable you feel with talking to, you know, the upper people. Yeah. I mean, even, you know, the message we got could be something that she brings to, I don't know, one of the partner that hired her. No, I wouldn't bring that message exactly, but. No, no, no. But I would be like, hey, look, I feel like there is, you know, things I don't know I need to learn or like, you know.

Sponsors and executive programs

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Proactive office culture

35:02Offices, if they're good, they love employees who are proactive. You know, it's, the thing is, what they're describing, this person is dividing, dividing, the, my words are all over the place. I'm just, I'm tired, I guess. What am I saying? Who are you? What they are describing is, in some way, a universal human experience at offices, or in other places as well, like we're talking about. And it's an example of something that everyone goes through, but no one really talks about out loud because they're afraid to or whatever else, and no one does anything to try and solve it.

35:38So, if we were to think, like, oh, how do we solve it? Well, I think setting aside time with the director and saying, just give me, like, some guidelines or some understanding of these things. I'm going to come up with questions and be proactive. I would almost guarantee that that director, project manager, if they know your experience to date and they aren't blindsided, because they, you know, if they think you've had five years of experience in whatever thing and you don't, they're going to be like, wait, what the heck? But as soon as they know who you are, they're going to be like, actually, you know, that's a really smart idea.

36:12We should probably do that with all people we hire who don't know these things. Let's spend a time. It's the same thing as saying, it'd be the same thing as bringing someone into a project, regardless of their experience and skill set, into a new project partway and be like, okay, go. No, you wouldn't do that. You'd have a kickoff meeting. But that's often what happens when you start an office, right? You join a team. You're being put on a project. You barely know any background about or so much, and you're expected to start producing stuff. So, in a way, what you described would make total sense. And as a business who have new hires, that should be part of the onboarding procedure is to, okay, let's have a meeting.

36:48Let's have a crash course. Look, this, you're being hired. You don't know that typology. I'm going to have X person from the office give you a half-hour presentation on one of our projects. You understand, like, how we approach it, how it typically works, kind of, like, the main things, you know, like. Yeah. Well, presentation is one thing. I think more question-led conversation would be more productive. Well, that too. But let's say she's never worked on, I don't know, designing a school. Mm-hmm. Well, like, I personally would love to understand how you approach designing a school, the things to watch for, you know, the things to keep in mind.

37:22How, like, you know, like, because how else could you start designing? How else could you start producing stuff? Yeah, no, I know. I mean, that's why we do. And as a business, it is not efficient for you to have a person trying to figure out the basics for, like, a week or two, where it could have been clearly explained in, like, an hour by someone who's been doing it, like, 500 times. Yeah, no, I mean, I agree. That's why we do certain things in our office the way we do them. I think, like, there's this tendency, again, whether it be from employer to employee or someone starting a new project or starting with a client,

37:59like, whatever the relationship is, there's a tendency for everybody to just, like, want to start, like, just to get into it. And it's dumb. I'm like, no, let's take a minute, take a half an hour, an hour, whatever, just, like, understand what we're dealing with, think about it, and then move forward. But I think that comes from, you know, the excitement of doing that thing. Yeah. The impatience. Like, who wants to wait the morning after Christmas to open gift when they are, like, under the tree, you know?

38:33Right. When I'm in the night before. Right. Like, why?

38:37Yeah, but it's not Christmas. No, but, you know. This is your, like, project. Yeah, but it's kind of, like, people get excited. But it's not a good way of operating because you end up missing things which cause big problems or, again, people are floundering because they don't have basic information they need to. You're not thinking purely. Yeah, it's not a good idea. And so I think people are sort of pivoting. People kind of sometimes are surprised at clients when we start working and we're, like, let's take a beat. Let's, like, have conversations, do some analysis, think, whatever, and then we go.

39:10They're, like, why? Why can't we start drawing? I'm, like, because there's, like, a thousand variables involved. And they all trickle down in different ways depending on so many, each other. So, no, we're not going to start just drawing stuff. No, we're not doing that. Yeah. And it's the same thing in an office. Like, you can't just drop someone in and be, like, here, go. It's, like, super unsettling. And they don't have any contacts. But my main, I'll probably call this person, I suppose, but my main response, which maybe is not helpful, is just, eh, don't worry about it.

39:44Well, look, look, I think it's a good sign that she's aware of that feeling. I think that's a good sign that she's aware that she needs to perform, you know, for the compensation she's been given. And it seems that she will try hard to perform well. So, eventually, you know. I think they would have done it anyway with this person.

Compensation relative to industry

40:05But, so, the other thing I was going to say is it's all about, it's all relative and it's based on context. If you come from a place where you're doing, I'm making stuff up now. But you're working long hours, you're underpaid, you're not treated well. Again, not their situation necessarily, but let's say that's the case. I mean, I had that experience where I was working in an office where I was treated fine but severely underpaid, super long hours, like, just craziness. Then I transitioned to an office where we got off at 6 p.m. And I was paid, also, I'm not going to say that it was bad, but I was paid, like, twice as much as the previous, no.

40:39What was I making before, Charles? Like, three times the amount. Yeah, but you're still below the average. And it was still below. Which is another thing, like, you know, she said she got a raise and that's great. But then you also have to know, like, what were you hired at a lower price? And so the raise you got it. Did the raise you got is because you're bringing value or you've been doing well? Or is the raise you got because they hired you for so cheap that they feel bad about it and bump you up to, like, a normal, normal number?

41:13So, okay. So, first, from the perspective of the person, when you make a jump like that, it always feels weird if you're concerned at all about your performance. It's going to feel that way. But, again, you only feel bad because of your relative experience where you had before. If you had actually come from a legitimate office anyway, you'd be moving across and you wouldn't have these concerns, I think. Like, it's also true what you said more from, like, the employer's lens that I also, later on, got hired by another office, got the number I've asked for, which tells me immediately, like, I didn't – they were like, yeah, sure.

41:51I'm like, oh, fuck.

41:54And so I was at a small architecture office previously. It was paid okay. Asked for a raise. They gave me only part of what I wanted. I'm like, I've been here a while now. Like, I need more than this. I jumped to a different office, a much, much bigger office, got a good chunk more money than I got a raise, actually, quite recently afterwards. And I was, like, scratching my head. And then I realized, like, I think everyone else has been making more than me this entire time. And so, like I said, it's about what's relative.

42:28And by the way, also, for anyone in these industries – and this is not the employer's fault because employers and partners at offices also don't make a lot of money. All of us in the profession, again, we're not talking about big money in the larger scheme of the world. It's crazy, again, for the amount of work that we all do versus other industries. Like, it's disproportionate. You shouldn't be greedy as an employee because you should bring value to the table. But, like, you shouldn't feel bad about making probably okay money or decent money.

43:00Like, we should all adopt a mentality of – I wouldn't say wanting more, but being okay with more. More, because the more in our case is, like, below average relative to the rest of society.

43:14Well, and that's the problem if you compare, like, how much architects make versus how much, you know, people in the tech industry make. It's, like, the patrons who, you know, pay for their salaries, you know, are, like, billion-dollar company on one side versus, like, single homeowners on the other side. Like, it's kind of, like – that's why there is such a gap, right? Partially. Like, our offices are not funded the same way that those other offices are. So, it's – Yeah, yeah.

43:45It's a different structure. It's hard to catch up, but anyway. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. What do you still feel like you have an imposter syndrome right now?

When imposter syndrome fades

43:53That's a great question. Like, is that something that goes away? Like, now you have your own office. You're not an employee. Do you feel like you have an imposter syndrome? That's a really good question. Or, like, when did you stop – I mean, I'll answer the question, but when did you stop feeling imposter syndrome? I think I stopped once I got more technical knowledge on projects. Okay. Like, I felt like, okay, now I can use complex technical terms, and I know what they mean. Vapor barrier. Our values. And I know where they go on the wall section.

44:25So, I feel more legitimate. I think, like, during my younger days, I think that's what happened. Sure. But, I mean, I was going to coordination meetings on, you know, skyscrapers with consultants, and I had no fucking idea where things were supposed to go. But in those meetings, a lot of it is just – And, you know, at the 50th meeting, you know exactly how it works, right? It just – it's like, you know, it's like going to the gym. It's like lifting weights. Yeah. Like, you can't pick up the heaviest weight in the room the first hour you're starting training.

44:56Yeah. So, you're going to need to put the time to get to that point. So, I think you just need a lot of patience. And you do realize, to your gym analogy, or even your other one with CA, that actually, in the long run – and long run means not necessarily 20 years. It doesn't mean that, but it could mean also just, you know, three, five years. In the longer run, the success of an individual and their productivity and their positive impact on the office and the world has to do with how they operate. I was just going to say that. It's not really about – It's not about the knowledge itself.

45:28At a single point in time, yeah. It's about how you're going to approach the situation to, you know, get to that knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. It's like – the gym thing is actually a pretty good one. Like, the more consistent you are – you have to be consistent. Yeah, I'm speaking from experience. From six months to a year to a year, it's consistency will outbeat everyone else. If, you know, again, the mode of operating in the professional setting for architecture is that you're good, smart, trying hard, all that stuff. That's what it's really – That being said, I feel like I – and I feel like a lot of architects are going to feel the same as I do, is that I feel like I always have somewhere at some point during the week the imposter syndrome.

46:07Interesting. You know, like, I don't know, it could be like you go to an event and you feel like you're the imposter at the event, you know. If you compare yourself to, like, I don't know, another architect or another office, well, you feel like you're an imposter, right? But, like, I think it's also, like, if you measure the success, like, your own personal success with other people, I feel like that's where it usually gets triggered. Yeah, there's something about ego that comes into the fold at some point, I think, with the imposter syndrome.

46:39And I think it's healthy to have, you know, from time to time just to keep yourself in check because if you don't have it, you never really, I don't know, look at your – like, criticize yourself or, like, assess where you're at. See, I disagree with that.

46:56Well, first, to our question of when did imposter syndrome fade away and fully disappear or mostly disappear, I – it's – for me, I'm trying to think, would it have happened – I guess there's different levels of it fading away. When we got licensed, for example, I felt less of an imposter because I'm like, okay, I went through – That's true. I went through it. Yeah, so I think there are – I have the title. I think there are checkpoints. One of them is – technical knowledge I could certainly see because before then, it's like looking at the matrix.

47:29You look at drawings, you're like, what is going on? Everyone's using these terms. You're like, yeah, yeah, sounds good, guys. Good meeting. You look at a window of detail and you're like, yeah, where is the frame? What are these squiggly lines? That's insulation. So does it look like that in practice? Like, what are we doing?

47:47So I agree. So there's kind of like checkpoints. That's actually another topic that would be interesting to talk about. Like how things get represented on drawings versus how they look like in the real world. That's a very interesting – Yeah, so – It's like an alphabet. It's like its own language. Not to deviate to it. It certainly, certainly is. And I think as much as we like to promote the design and philosophical value of architects, because I think without those two things, not much else really matters.

48:22Technical offerings is like so critical. Assuming the GC follows the drawings. But anyway, so I think there's checkpoints. There's like the technical knowledge and you feel more at home or at ease. Getting licensed is another big one. It's weird, right? Because it means nothing really. But there's a weight off the shoulders. You're going to upset people when you say that. Well, we can have a whole conversation about being licensed or not licensed. And then – but like when it truly disappears for me, I think it probably had to do more with having our own business.

49:01It's different for me as well because I'm the one that's out more than you are. I was going to say, like I still feel like an imposter because I haven't built, you know, like 100 homes. I don't have enough gray hair or do I have more and more. I still, you know, look somewhat young, thankfully.

49:18Yeah, so getting older does help with that naturally. We've talked about ages and plenty on the show. And I still look very young. I look slightly older now. But like, you know, four years ago, even now, people think I'm like in college. I'm like, no, I'm not in college. Getting older does help. But I think for me, because I'm out more often, if I were to analyze it, the reason why I don't have – I don't have imposter syndrome. And this might sound like whatever, because I don't give a fuck.

49:49And I don't give a fuck because I've measured up everyone else in the room. I know what they've done and not them. They've done – sometimes they've done amazing things a lot more than I have. I don't care. It doesn't matter. That actually doesn't matter. They're going to perform better than me. And if they do, then so what? The only thing I can have control over is my capacity and then my potential in doing that. And I'm going to do it as – do the best I can. And I know it's good. So I don't care. And in every situation, you know, every meeting I step into with new people, new potential clients, new GCs, new lenders, new whoever it is, new site, whatever.

50:24It's all new. And at some point, it doesn't feel new. I'm like, yeah, okay, what's up? What are you going to do? Okay, yeah, you have – oh, you have a lot of money to spend. I don't care. You know what I mean? It's not – it doesn't – I was actually talking to a colleague and friend who's a GC about this. And he's younger than I am. And he's like, I'm fearless when I go into stuff. And I think it's more because he's been conditioned to be very business and marketing savvy. And as a person in the office who does most of that, I think that's what makes you feel like less of an imposter.

50:56You just get used to – hustling is not the right word. Well, I think it's a social interaction. You have a lot more practice run on that front. So therefore, it makes you more confident. Yeah. And that's where the imposter syndrome comes into play is the feeling of being confident. Yeah. And again, you realize that whether or not this relationship is going to work, you do realize it's not really about skill set. If it is, then fine. It's not out of my control, so why would I be concerned about that? There's no imposter syndrome for not knowing something I don't know. I wouldn't be worried about that.

51:26But the things I have under control, if I feel like I'm doing them well, then I have no reason to be worried. Well, and if you're not pretending to know things you don't know, then you shouldn't feel as an imposter. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's the mentality, although I don't know if necessarily you would say this, excuse me, to a client who doesn't know anything about how this all works. The mentality is, we'll figure it out. Okay? We'll figure it out.

51:57So, yeah. No. Imposter syndrome. I'm trying to think of, like, what would happen that would cause me to feel that way within the professional setting. I think also, you know, I'm not a big believer in, like, the spirituality of the world and, like, things falling in certain places. But, like, if you're at the table and someone has allowed you to be there, then you're supposed to be there.

52:31Like, you don't need to question whether or not you should be there. You were invited to be there. You were hired to be there. You were asked to be interviewed by this person. You were approached to say, hey, can you do a tower? And, like, yeah, sure. We can do a tower. You know? Like, you were invited. You've been accepted. So, there's no reason to feel like you don't belong. You were invited. You're supposed to be there. So, yeah. That's how I would look at it. Do you feel this? That's pretty good. Yeah? Yeah, no. I think that makes sense. I think, you know, I mean, to be psychological here, but I feel like it also probably comes down to how people were raised, too.

53:13You know? And, like, do you feel like you deserve what you got versus you don't even question if you deserve it or not? You know? Like, what was your upbringing like, you know, as a kid? Yeah. You know, those types of things. I think that does, in a way, carry, you know, throughout, like, your career and your adulthood. Like, that's why people are, like, cutthroat and just step over other people, are super competitive and have no remorse, no bad feeling about it. You know, and some others, like, are constantly doubting, feel like they don't deserve things.

53:43Like, I think all of that comes back from, you know, the first days of your life at some point. Which doesn't mean it cannot be changed, though. Well, that's according to someone who has a degree in psychology, so we should listen to you. What?

54:00You don't know that. Maybe it's baked in. I do think that you can influence. Maybe you can change 100%, but I do think that the choices that you make and the routes that you take would allow you to be able to change a little. Okay. Change a little. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Or completely, it depends.

54:23Walter White, that's a good example. I've been finishing breaking, not breaking Saul. Fuck. Breaking Saul. My words are all over the place the last few days. Oh. Better call Saul.

54:34Yeah, so. I think, you know, she's been working in the new office for the last four months. It's still fairly new. Just keep doing what you're doing. You know, work hard. Do your best. Stop worrying about that stuff. Or get into place. There's, so yes, I was also thinking, there's something about, like, the confidence that you exude when you don't allow the imposter syndrome part of the brain to take over too much.

55:08And confidence, I mean, in a positive way. I don't mean that you're, again, faking until you make it too much, or that you're bombastic, or that you're confrontational, or, like, all, you know, all the stuff that people do to have fake confidence. I don't mean that. But, I mean, you naturally just exude a presence of confidence, because you are confident in what you're saying, and your skill set, and what you know you can do. And so, I think that's a very valuable thing to have, maybe more from an employer's perspective than less than employee.

55:44But I think for everybody, it's a good trait to have. I don't think it's a bad trait to have, to have the presence of someone who's confident. And it doesn't mean that you're closed-minded. It doesn't mean that you're saying you're always right. It just means that you are comfortable in your own skin, and you're comfortable with what you know and don't know, and your potential. And I think the potential is a key part of it, because the way I think about, I guess, myself, or I think anyone else should think about themselves,

56:15in terms of the imposter syndrome and confidence and all these things, I actually don't think it's about what you've done in the past and your current knowledge. It's more about what you know you could do if you had this task in front of you, that the potential to do it. Right. Right. I've never designed this exact thing before, whether it be a building type or a new house. You know, every house is different, or it's a campus plan, or whatever it is.

56:48I've never done it, but I'm totally confident that we will do a good job of it. And, or, if we want to back it up a little bit, I'm confident we will try as hard as we possibly can to do it. And I'm also completely confident it'll still be better than the vast majority of other people who would take a crack at it. So. Well, so that's another way to trick yourself into, out of the imposter syndrome, is instead of looking at the people next to you who have the knowledge you don't have,

57:18look at the people maybe further away from you who do not have that knowledge. Well, you could do that, too. Look at the receptionist and be like, you know what? They don't know how building works. I do, a little bit, so therefore, I'm not an imposter. You know, you gotta trick yourself once in a while. You could do that. I guess I was thinking more, like, internally, though. Like, you know, if you look at yourself as a current person, that's one thing, but looking at that future self is a different thing.

57:50And you don't want to get too crazy because you get into la-la land and, you know, you kind of, like, should not believe in yourself too much to a degree. Like, you need to keep yourself in check, like you were saying. But I think it's more about that, like, projected figure that is what matters the most. Because that's what actually people, that's what they want. They want someone who knows, like, okay, we're going to get there.

58:14We're going to get there. You should have been a life coach, David. Well.

58:20Yeah.

58:23That's the least enthusiastic answer. So, yeah. I don't know if we have time for another one. I think we... No, I don't think we do. We kind of... Yeah, I don't think we do. ...covered this one pretty extensively. Okay, well, the other six people who text, you'll have to wait other six months for the rest.

Contributing design ideas early

58:39Well, we should, yeah, we should wrap with Samantha Smith and see if she's still at the same firm or not. Yeah. Maybe we have a part two of this discussion. We don't know. Yeah. Guess what? She went back to the builder.

58:56Yeah. So, I don't know if I have much else to say.

59:03Their own experiences or... Was there anything specific she said that we just completely missed? You know what I mean? No, I mean, I think the thing she said is that she has only been able to contribute a few small ideas since she started.

59:19And I think, again, you know, patience and sometimes getting the right ideas take time, you know? Yeah. Like, I don't think I would expect anyone who started into a new office to come up with, like, the best idea in the first month of their work. I'm also curious, like, what ideas mean, like, design ideas, because that's a hard thing to pitch if it's a different typology and you're younger. Like, design ideas are, like, I wouldn't... So, let's... Okay. So, let's say it is design ideas that is what we're talking about.

59:51I would really put no pressure on myself if it was a junior designer to come up with design ideas. Like, you're really, again, six months to a year, just absorbing. And not to say that you shouldn't try to contribute or that the office should not ask you to contribute, because it's always good to be in the mix. But, like, it's just hard, because, again, every decision we make, there's, like, half a dozen other things that are floating in the back of our mind. And we're weighing the pros and cons, which are always varying.

1:00:21Yeah. By some budget, schedule, structure, taste, program, what the client likes, the day of the week, like, all this stuff. And, like, it's impossible to thread between all of those things and have, like, a really good design idea that weaves through all those things as a person who's new. Like, it's just unlikely. So, if it's a design idea, then I don't know. I wouldn't fret if you haven't been able to contribute in that way.

1:00:47Yeah. It's just learning. I mean, the way I would look at it is, so, it is weird, because then, when you're making good money, or you're making money, it's weird, because you're, like, getting paid to learn, you know? Yeah. And it feels like the opposite. It should be, like, you're giving something, and then you get money for that. Yeah. But you have nothing to give. You're, like, why am I, why are they spending tens of thousands of dollars on me, which, for a younger person, is, like, that's a lot of money. Yeah, but you're in training, in a way.

1:01:19Yeah, I know. Like, you know, I think the worst is when you're being paid at an office, and you have no work to do there. That's weird. That's like a, it's a, it's a boredom thing, you know? It is, it is when the time, the hours, feels the longest. It is such a weird and unpleasant. Those were always the worst days for me, when I had nothing to do. Oh, I would get, I don't know, so fidgety, and it's just, I would have been, like, give me the vacuum, give me something to clean, something to do, because sitting and pretending, you know, when everyone else is working, and, like, I don't know, your project got put on hold, but you still have to show up to work, because that's the right thing to do.

1:01:55There is nothing for you to be doing. Like, it's just, I don't know. Yeah. Worst feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so. And as an office, I don't, I don't think that should ever be allowed. I think there should always be, like, a backup thing someone could do, then sitting in a chair for eight hours, doing nothing, because... That happens when there's bad management, or there's middle, I mean, once every few years, that happens. Like, just leave, just go, just go take a walk in Bryant Park, just get out, just, like, go, go to the beach, you know?

1:02:30Because why? Why be here in an office environment if you're not going to have anything to do? But I think it happens a lot. It's just, there's bad management somewhere in the mix. But I would maybe just adopt the mindset of, like, that's a school again, you know? You're going to try as hard as you can, contribute when you can, but you're mainly there to learn. Yeah. And that's actually how you're going to be the most productive for the office quicker, quicker, I think. All right. Give us another show.

Finding the podcast online

1:02:59Oh, thanks for listening, I guess. This is... You guess? We have a podcast? What am I saying? We have a podcast. I don't know. I'm so tired. Are you thinking they don't know we have a podcast? We have a podcast, in case you didn't know. No, we're on Instagram. Second Studio Pod is the handle. We have a website, Second Studio Pod. Reach out to both of those, reach out to us through both of those places. Follow us on Instagram. We're on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, probably whatever. I always say... Well, I think on our website it says we have Google Play, and someone told me recently,

1:03:31you know, there's no more Google Play. I'm like, yeah, well, whatever. We're out there. We're on iTunes. Yeah. There's no more iTunes. Like, whatever, man. We're out there. You get it. You get what I'm saying.

1:03:42But this is the type of stuff where, like, younger generations, like, these people are so old. They don't know what they're talking about. I'm like, yeah, because I don't care. Like, we're out there. The player stuff that's out there, we're out there. What is it? Walkman? Whatever the thing is that's out there, we're out there. You need to know where it is to find it. We have a hotline, which is 213-222-6950, which I believe the notifications do work now. So, a few messages, and we should be able to answer. Within the next two years. Yeah, within the next six months or something. That's it.

1:04:12More stuff to come. Thanks for listening. If this spurs on questions from people, then please do reach out, and we'll answer offline and or online. And that'll be that. Good? Okay, great. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.